I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
I read with no pleasure whatsoever that Grabcocque has been banned from the site following his interaction with me last night from 12ish to 1.30. I fully appreciate that Professor Curtice produced a poll confirming that the demography between leavers and remainers had moved into the remain favour due to the deaths of older leave voters.
That is perfectly legitimate reporting and for discussion though I see Polly Toynbee went over the top celebrating the change and attracted widespread criticism and demands she resigns from her position at the Guardian
However Grabcoque took it to another level last night when I objected to this post
'Happy Feast of St. Gammon's Day, to one and all.
It's on this happy day of the year, we like to remember the gammons that got us into this fucking mess, and celebrate that due to the passage of time and their advanced age and poor diet, the UK's leave majority has fucked off to the land of eternal rest so we don't have to suffer their shit any more.'
I responded by commenting
My business partner and best friend of 50 years died last week, another colleague the week before, and two more long time friends
And you spout that disgusting celebration of the death of the elderly
You should be ashamed of yourself
It is not funny nor respecting life and added a further comment
I would just comment to my fellow posters and the moderators that if this abuse of the dying elderly is permitted to continue I shall, regrettably, have to stop posting
Grabcoque’s response was
'I mean, most of the serious, possibly existential problems that plague this planet are the gift of the oldies. The most obnoxiously selfish generations in a millennium. Brexit is their last gasp in the UK, and I think we should be thankful that the ravages of time are finally robbing us of their tendency and determination to turn everything to shit.
That said, in this case, I wasn't celebrating the death of all old people, just old leavers.'
The discussion then spiraled down and became intensely personal and frankly unnecessary.
We live in an internet age but I have deliberately not joined twitter because of the appalling abuse but PB is a ‘beacon of political discussion’, often hard fought and at times with unnecessary language but that is to be expected in these highly contentious times.
I try to post honestly, refraining from personal abuse, and arguing my case as best as I can without using unnecessary language. It is not because I am a snowflake, far from it, but I do respect people, was appalled at Farage use of migrants in the Brexit campaign, and am indeed happy for as many people to come into this Country, as the Country can accommodate and improve diversity
I am a member of the conservative party but far removed from the Brexiteers and more in line with TM views though while she has great strengths, she does have many faults like we all do
I do hope the moderators will allow Grabcogue back in due course as he was a very good contributor and actually on occasions I agreed with his comments
Finally I would like to thank everyone for their kind support over this issue and regret the length of this post
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
That is one of the most interesting articles that I have read on Trump and his appeal.
"The more people worshipping and studying with neighbors with whom they shared a higher cause, the less belief that the American Dream was dead."
America has long been more religious than Europe, but I do think that there are parallels in the WWC Brexit vote in the UK. Here religion was less a factor than the decline of social institutions such as workplaces and trade unions. Atomised communities have much less commitment to the status quo. There is a Trump like desire in Brexit to create something to believe in.
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Sean has been banned several times over the years though. For some reason he has mellowed greatly since shacking up with a 23-year-old Corbynista.
I have been banned multiple times, too many to remember. PS: Not for a long time mind you
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
That is one of the most interesting articles that I have read on Trump and his appeal.
"The more people worshipping and studying with neighbors with whom they shared a higher cause, the less belief that the American Dream was dead."
America has long been more religious than Europe, but I do think that there are parallels in the WWC Brexit vote in the UK. Here religion was less a factor than the decline of social institutions such as workplaces and trade unions. Atomised communities have much less commitment to the status quo. There is a Trump like desire in Brexit to create something to believe in.
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
I suppose it depends on what is meant by less religious! A significant percentage of those Evangelicals (albeit less Trump inclined) attend Church more than once a week! I suspect few Britons do.
To put it in Simpsons Terms, where everyone seems to go to the services of the Reverend Lovejoy, Ned Flanders would not vote Trump, but the barflys of Mo's bar would. Nonetheless they all attend. The ups and downs of the church are well chronicled here, including its several bankrupcies:
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Sean has been banned several times over the years though. For some reason he has mellowed greatly since shacking up with a 23-year-old Corbynista.
I have been banned multiple times, too many to remember.
I have been banned just the once, I think. A few days in the cooler helped me calm down. It does seem that @grabcoque does have a few anger issues, and not just online. His posts last night were certainly out of order.
It doesn't make a big difference, but polling does suggest Labour would suffer a net loss of voters to the Conservatives if it opposed Brexit. Eg the latest Survation poll.
Has he? How do you know? Shame if true, pb's a great site but it gets a bit predictable when it's all the same old orthodox set of takes.
His user ID shows as banned.
I never found out which former poster reinvented he was, but he did add to discussions and when he wasn't obviously trolling his arguments were usually worth thinking about. Banning him for a single comment last night when SeanT's rants have contained worse looks to me like a double standard.
Grabcocque’s real name (and his entertaining history as a Tory council candidate) is trivially Googlable. I believe he used to post under his real name years ago.
So they are! Tower Hamlets, 'nuff said
For those of us to thick to find out for ourselves, what's the story?
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Slogans yes but no serious explanation of why those of us to whom it makes a difference should have our livelihoods and wellbeing wrecked on a whim or worse; I heard a phone- in the other day when someone was asked what they meant by 'losing sovereignty'? 'they're telling us we have to have straight bananas'. On being by the interviewer that was found to be untrue they said 'Oh. Well they made us bring in decimalisation'.
The point is that Leaving is going to cost maybe 25% of us in very direct terms and another say 20% in the way we see ourselves. And for what?
That's why Remainers are angry and see Leavers as a malevolent wrecking ball. Old people who want to turn the clocks back. Right wing nationalists with ugly motives and the majority who just think that as it doesn't affect them so why not? There's a lot to be angry about
Roger, for your explanation I suggest you look towards the arrogant shits in Brussels who strutt about thinking they own Europe.
It's a club. No more no less. You have no reason to call them arrogant shits. The EU have never given the impression of being more or less important than their members of which we were one and as for membership rules they are a lot more democratic than most clubs. Just try getting into Grouchos!
Report in this mornings mail that JRM is pivoting towards TM deal as he sees brexit threatened
I'll believe it when I see it. And if he does he's a fool for being as strident as he was since he cannot pivot to it without making his earlier words look like overblown idiocy.
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Just to check - you do know he voted Leave?
Are you sure? He certainly doesn't read like a Leaver. Do you know his username before GC?
Has he? How do you know? Shame if true, pb's a great site but it gets a bit predictable when it's all the same old orthodox set of takes.
His user ID shows as banned.
I never found out which former poster reinvented he was, but he did add to discussions and when he wasn't obviously trolling his arguments were usually worth thinking about. Banning him for a single comment last night when SeanT's rants have contained worse looks to me like a double standard.
Grabcocque’s real name (and his entertaining history as a Tory council candidate) is trivially Googlable. I believe he used to post under his real name years ago.
So they are! Tower Hamlets, 'nuff said
For those of us to thick to find out for ourselves, what's the story?
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Slogans yes but no serious explanation of why those of us to whom it makes a difference should have our livelihoods and wellbeing wrecked on a whim or worse; I heard a phone- in the other day when someone was asked what they meant by 'losing sovereignty'? 'they're telling us we have to have straight bananas'. On being by the interviewer that was found to be untrue they said 'Oh. Well they made us bring in decimalisation'.
The point is that Leaving is going to cost maybe 25% of us in very direct terms and another say 20% in the way we see ourselves. And for what?
That's why Remainers are angry and see Leavers as a malevolent wrecking ball. Old people who want to turn the clocks back. Right wing nationalists with ugly motives and the majority who just think that as it doesn't affect them so why not? There's a lot to be angry about
Roger, for your explanation I suggest you look towards the arrogant shits in Brussels who strutt about thinking they own Europe.
It's a club. No more no less. You have no reason to call them arrogant shits. The EU have never given the impression of being more or less important than their members of which we were one and as for membership rules they are a lot more democratic than most clubs. Just try getting into Grouchos!
On topic, I used to be quite a strong believer in Trumps re-election (not an event I wish for in any way, but I have seen America re-elect GWB and elect Trump in my lifetime and as a result have learned strong emotions on the left in the US and generally in Europe against ‘unpopular’ presidents hold little sway in the game for the Presidency).
That said, I am starting to waver. I have no doubt that Trumps base is fired up and I strongly believe he will win the nomination for 2020 if he seeks it, but it feels like there is now a bit of a shift given recent events and the constant drip-drip of bad news from the investigations and the shutdown.
Trumps strength is the Democrats decisions about how they fight him. Do they go with a die-hard coastal liberal who can enthuse their own base but risk wavering voters who voted Trump in 2016 moving back into his column, or do they do for a centrist unifier who can potentially command broad support and run on a message of healing the country, but risk turning off the left and depressing turnout in significant demographics?
My view is that someone like Warren is going to struggle against Trump. A name that has been mentioned on here a few times is Klobuchar. I saw an interview with her the other day and thought she was quietly impressive, rational and sensible without being ‘scary’ to moderates. I don’t know how well she would do in a nomination fight but I do think America is crying out for someone sensible who can tone down the ugly partisan rhetoric and (an oft overused term) reach across the aisle and try and heal the country. Whether America at large would vote for that, I don’t know at this stage.
In summary, I think 2020 is all to play for but don’t underestimate the significance of the Democratic nominee.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Well, you get away with it.
That said, your posts are often very interesting when you're not making strange comments about Yorkshire terriers and Polish slappers.
Report in this mornings mail that JRM is pivoting towards TM deal as he sees brexit threatened
I'll believe it when I see it. And if he does he's a fool for being as strident as he was since he cannot pivot to it without making his earlier words look like overblown idiocy.
It did seem that he takes the view that if Brexit is threatened he would accept TM deal rather than no brexit or a referendum
TM seems to be standing firm and is spending the weekend with the DUP at Chequers. Of course if she gets ERG and DUP on side her deal will pass. I expect that is where her focus is
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the most interesting articles that I have read on Trump and his appeal.
"The more people worshipping and studying with neighbors with whom they shared a higher cause, the less belief that the American Dream was dead."
America has long been more religious than Europe, but I do think that there are parallels in the WWC Brexit vote in the UK. Here religion was less a factor than the decline of social institutions such as workplaces and trade unions. Atomised communities have much less commitment to the status quo. There is a Trump like desire in Brexit to create something to believe in.
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
A significant percentage of those Evangelicals (albeit less Trump inclined) attend Church more than once a week! I suspect few Britons do.
To pnders would not vote Trump, but the barflys of Mo's bar would. Nonetheless they all attend. The ups and downs of the church are well chronicled here, including its several bankrupcies:
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
I was in touch with an old friend of mine in the US South recently; she went through a hard time in the financial crash, losing her home and her marriage, and when I last heard from her she was working on min wage in a restaurant while both she and her daughter retrained as hairdressers.
Five years on the daughter is making a six figure income touring the US giving motivational speaking sessions and selling online courses for hair salons, with my friend as her manager; they both now own their own houses. Which for them is really good news; I took a look at some of her stuff and the confidence and passion is very evident, but the actual content is mostly the same 'believe in yourself (and you will get rich)' message you'd get probably from any evangelical church. Indeed they've really just taken the motivational approach from evangelism and applied it very successfully to hairdressing, in a way that I cannot ever see working over here.
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Slogans yes but no serious explanation of why those of us to whom it makes a difference should have our livelihoods and wellbeing wrecked on a whim or worse; I heard a phone- in the other day when someone was asked what they meant by 'losing sovereignty'? 'they're telling us we have to have straight bananas'. On being by the interviewer that was found to be untrue they said 'Oh. Well they made us bring in decimalisation'.
The point is that Leaving is going to cost maybe 25% of us in very direct terms and another say 20% in the way we see ourselves. And for what?
That's why Remainers are angry and see Leavers as a malevolent wrecking ball. Old people who want to turn the clocks back. Right wing nationalists with ugly motives and the majority who just think that as it doesn't affect them so why not? There's a lot to be angry about
Roger, for your explanation I suggest you look towards the arrogant shits in Brussels who strutt about thinking they own Europe.
It's a club. No more no less. You have no reason to call them arrogant shits. The EU have never given the impression of being more or less important than their members of which we were one and as for membership rules they are a lot more democratic than most clubs. Just try getting into Grouchos!
Roger, even as a Remainer I'm certainly not going to agree with that. The appointments of Barnier and Selmayr on their own, by the Commission without reference to the Council or even the European Parliament give the lie to that.
The problem with the EU is it's never quite decided what it is or what it's for. Obviously, for a very large number of very influential people it is a nascent state. For others, it is a free trade area. For yet others, it is a supranational institution on the lines of the African Union. That, of course, is in its own way healthy. New ideas are to be encouraged and debate is always good. The bigger problem is that for many years the Commission has been dominated by the first group and especially under Juncker has increasingly behaved like a national Cabinet. Which it isn't.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
Has he? How do you know? Shame if true, pb's a great site but it gets a bit predictable when it's all the same old orthodox set of takes.
His user ID shows as banned.
I never found out which former poster reinvented he was, but he did add to discussions and when he wasn't obviously trolling his arguments were usually worth thinking about. Banning him for a single comment last night when SeanT's rants have contained worse looks to me like a double standard.
Grabcocque’s real name (and his entertaining history as a Tory council candidate) is trivially Googlable. I believe he used to post under his real name years ago.
So they are! Tower Hamlets, 'nuff said
For those of us to thick to find out for ourselves, what's the story?
Have you ever put on a John Prescott mask? If so you probably found yourself causing some kind of disturbance.
Stay away from the John Prescott masks.
'Posting on social networking site Twitter afterwards, Mr Prescott wrote: "I'm alright after the scuffle. He didn't touch me but I was worried about the ladies. He was wearing a John Prescott mask! Bizarre."'
As far as I can ascertain from GC's posting, the ladies had very little to worry about.
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
That is one of the most interesting articles that I have read on Trump and his appeal.
"The more people worshipping and studying with neighbors with whom they shared a higher cause, the less belief that the American Dream was dead."
America has long been more religious than Europe, but I do think that there are parallels in the WWC Brexit vote in the UK. Here religion was less a factor than the decline of social institutions such as workplaces and trade unions. Atomised communities have much less commitment to the status quo. There is a Trump like desire in Brexit to create something to believe in.
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
A 1% per annum drop in Americans self describing as Christians is quite a strong trend, and across all parts of society, so seems to be a cultural change rather than a demographic one.
Is it perhaps a reflection of the rise of online communities (like this) replacing in person communities. Food for thought.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Well, you get away with it.
That said, your posts are often very interesting when you're not making strange comments about Yorkshire terriers and Polish slappers.
For the record and the avoidance of doubt it was my RAF student pilot that tackled the hairy Polish monster not me.
Still the "Poland Story" is as nothing compared to the "Hong Kong Story" which I only tell on Taranto Night...
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Slogans yes but no serious explanation of why those of us to whom it makes a difference should have our livelihoods and wellbeing wrecked on a whim or worse; I heard a phone- in the other day when someone was asked what they meant by 'losing sovereignty'? 'they're telling us we have to have straight bananas'. On being told by the interviewer that was found to be untrue the caller said 'Oh. Well they made us bring in decimalisation'.
The point is that Leaving is going to cost maybe 25% of us in very direct terms and another say 20% in the way we see ourselves. And for what?
That's why Remainers are angry and see Leavers as a malevolent wrecking ball. Old people who want to turn the clocks back. Right wing nationalists with ugly motives and the majority who just think that as it doesn't affect them so why not? There's a lot to be angry about
He voted to Leave....
So the allegedly offensive posts in question belong to a Leaver?
Has he? How do you know? Shame if true, pb's a great site but it gets a bit predictable when it's all the same old orthodox set of takes.
His user ID shows as banned.
I never found out which former poster reinvented he was, but he did add to discussions and when he wasn't obviously trolling his arguments were usually worth thinking about. Banning him for a single comment last night when SeanT's rants have contained worse looks to me like a double standard.
Grabcocque’s real name (and his entertaining history as a Tory council candidate) is trivially Googlable. I believe he used to post under his real name years ago.
So they are! Tower Hamlets, 'nuff said
For those of us to thick to find out for ourselves, what's the story?
Taxi! For grabcocque
Wrong guy. You are thinking of Martin Day
True. It’s only the Lib Dem’s who can fit in a taxi
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
That is one of the most interesting articles that I have read on Trump and his appeal.
"The more people worshipping and studying with neighbors with whom they shared a higher cause, the less belief that the American Dream was dead."
America has long been more religious than Europe, but I do think that there are parallels in the WWC Brexit vote in the UK. Here religion was less a factor than the decline of social institutions such as workplaces and trade unions. Atomised communities have much less commitment to the status quo. There is a Trump like desire in Brexit to create something to believe in.
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
A 1% per annum drop in Americans self describing as Christians is quite a strong trend, and across all parts of society, so seems to be a cultural change rather than a demographic one.
Is it perhaps a reflection of the rise of online communities (like this) replacing in person communities. Food for thought.
Certainly that survey suggests the trend is strongest in California and spreading out from there.
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Just to check - you do know he voted Leave?
Are you sure? He certainly doesn't read like a Leaver. Do you know his username before GC?
He himself said he voted Leave to 'stir things up.' I don't think he expected them to win.
Has he? How do you know? Shame if true, pb's a great site but it gets a bit predictable when it's all the same old orthodox set of takes.
His user ID shows as banned.
I never found out which former poster reinvented he was, but he did add to discussions and when he wasn't obviously trolling his arguments were usually worth thinking about. Banning him for a single comment last night when SeanT's rants have contained worse looks to me like a double standard.
Grabcocque’s real name (and his entertaining history as a Tory council candidate) is trivially Googlable. I believe he used to post under his real name years ago.
So they are! Tower Hamlets, 'nuff said
For those of us to thick to find out for ourselves, what's the story?
Have you ever put on a John Prescott mask? If so you probably found yourself causing some kind of disturbance.
Stay away from the John Prescott masks.
'Posting on social networking site Twitter afterwards, Mr Prescott wrote: "I'm alright after the scuffle. He didn't touch me but I was worried about the ladies. He was wearing a John Prescott mask! Bizarre."'
As far as I can ascertain from GC's posting, the ladies had very little to worry about.
Is he still pretending revocation is so we can sort out what we want rather than just a path to remain? Until he starts being honest again I'm not inclined to hear him.
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Slogans yes but no serious explanation of why those of us to whom it makes a difference should have our livelihoods and wellbeing wrecked on a whim or worse; I heard a phone- in the other day when someone was asked what they meant by 'losing sovereignty'? 'they're telling us we have to have straight bananas'. On being by the interviewer that was found to be untrue they said 'Oh. Well they made us bring in decimalisation'.
The point is that Leaving is going to cost maybe 25% of us in very direct terms and another say 20% in the way we see ourselves. And for what?
That's why Remainers are angry and see Leavers as a malevolent wrecking ball. Old people who want to turn the clocks back. Right wing nationalists with ugly motives and the majority who just think that as it doesn't affect them so why not? There's a lot to be angry about
Roger, for your explanation I suggest you look towards the arrogant shits in Brussels who strutt about thinking they own Europe.
It's a club. No more no less. You have no reason to call them arrogant shits. The EU have never given the impression of being more or less important than their members of which we were one and as for membership rules they are a lot more democratic than most clubs. Just try getting into Grouchos!
You must have a very high arrogance threshold.
Roger inhabits a completely different universe to 99% of the country. It's not arrogance, he just doesn't live a normal life. He has no more understanding of life outside his bubble than I do of life outside my bubble, but his bubble has better coffee and sunsets. To be fair to him, he's not the only one on here who has a hard job using his diamond encrusted platinum airmiles every month.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Just to check - you do know he voted Leave?
Are you sure? He certainly doesn't read like a Leaver. Do you know his username before GC?
He said he voted Leave to cause harm to Leave voters.
Has he? How do you know? Shame if true, pb's a great site but it gets a bit predictable when it's all the same old orthodox set of takes.
His user ID shows as banned.
I never found out which former poster reinvented he was, but he did add to discussions and when he wasn't obviously trolling his arguments were usually worth thinking about. Banning him for a single comment last night when SeanT's rants have contained worse looks to me like a double standard.
He had likely been given warnings, previously. Sometimes, people just don't know when to give it a rest.
Well indeed. Cumulative effect and all that and persistent provocation. May it be temporary. Everyone throws out unacceptable stuff now and then, everyone. But it doesn't have to be all the time. Others mentioned it's more intermittent.
"Theresa May made no change to her Brexit demands in cross-Channel phone calls with European Union leaders despite her own plan being heavily defeated by MPs earlier this week, it has been reported.
"The Prime Minister left EU diplomats in a state of 'disbelief' over her failure to shift her stance despite the historic defeat by a margin of 230 votes, a source said."
"Regardless, some in government reluctantly see [a General Election] as a possible way to avoid an irreparable party split over Brexit. If Theresa May can only get a Commons majority for a Brexit deal by aligning to Labour’s Brexit position of agreeing a permanent customs union which rules out free trade deals, many ministers and MPs will view it as a price not worth paying. ‘If it’s a choice between splitting the party over trade, risking no deal, or taking a chance on the polls and getting a deal through, it has to be the latter,’ argues a government advisor."
On topic - it would be something of an irony if, after the Democrats have fought desperately to keep Trump out of the White House, bewailed his presence there and condemned everything he's ever said or done, impeachment were finally to be initiated by a Republican - because the Dems feel it's electorally advantageous to leave him in office, regardless of how much more damage they think he might do over the remainder of his term. So much for the moral high ground.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Well, you get away with it.
That said, your posts are often very interesting when you're not making strange comments about Yorkshire terriers and Polish slappers.
For the record and the avoidance of doubt it was my RAF student pilot that tackled the hairy Polish monster not me.
Still the "Poland Story" is as nothing compared to the "Hong Kong Story" which I only tell on Taranto Night...
Is that like the Bangkok Story in I'm Alan Partridge.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Sean has been banned several times over the years though. For some reason he has mellowed greatly since shacking up with a 23-year-old Corbynista.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
I was in touch with an old friend of mine in the US South recently; she went through a hard time in the financial crash, losing her home and her marriage, and when I last heard from her she was working on min wage in a restaurant while both she and her daughter retrained as hairdressers.
Five years on the daughter is making a six figure income touring the US giving motivational speaking sessions and selling online courses for hair salons, with my friend as her manager; they both now own their own houses. Which for them is really good news; I took a look at some of her stuff and the confidence and passion is very evident, but the actual content is mostly the same 'believe in yourself (and you will get rich)' message you'd get probably from any evangelical church. Indeed they've really just taken the motivational approach from evangelism and applied it very successfully to hairdressing, in a way that I cannot ever see working over here.
I think the lack of employment and social protections in America, and much more rudimentary welfare system allows that to happen very easily in the USA. Even the seemingly secure are often only one serious illness, or lost paycheck away from falling through the bottom, and it is not easy to recover. Worth thinking about in the context of the US shutdown. America does not have anywhere as much social mobility as it thinks it does. Indeed less than UK and other European countries.
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Just to check - you do know he voted Leave?
Are you sure? He certainly doesn't read like a Leaver. Do you know his username before GC?
He himself said he voted Leave to 'stir things up.' I don't think he expected them to win.
He wasn't the only one. Should be a good source of switchers in the coming vote.
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Sean has been banned several times over the years though. For some reason he has mellowed greatly since shacking up with a 23-year-old Corbynista.
I have been banned multiple times, too many to remember. PS: Not for a long time mind you
And a good thing to. We need less wet blankets like me for a start. And even I have told several people to f*** off, in so many words. (With apologies to HYUFD and Mr meeks).
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
They take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Trump is appointing judges who may - or may not - overturn one of the very worse pieces of judicial activism ever...
But of course, Roe vs Wade was the best thing that ever happened to "the evangelical right". It motivated people who felt they had been cheated, and it meant those on the other side of the debate had no reason to go to the ballot boxes.
Overturning Roe vs Wade will - in all probability - result in the ballot box legalisation of abortion in pretty much all of America. Abortion will probably be more available, not less.
4 states have laws that will instantly ban abortion if Roe VS Wade is overturned. A double digit number of other states have statutes to restrict abortion as much as legally possible so will defacto ban abortion instantly if roe vs wade is overturned.
The history of the evangelical right and Roe vs Wade is interesting. Anti abortion activism amongst white evangelicals only really picked up in the 80's. Scholars attribute this to the final defeat of various racist evangelical policies (segregated schooling etc). The evangelical right then pivoted to abortion as their wedge issue.
"Theresa May made no change to her Brexit demands in cross-Channel phone calls with European Union leaders despite her own plan being heavily defeated by MPs earlier this week, it has been reported.
"The Prime Minister left EU diplomats in a state of 'disbelief' over her failure to shift her stance despite the historic defeat by a margin of 230 votes, a source said."
"Regardless, some in government reluctantly see [a General Election] as a possible way to avoid an irreparable party split over Brexit. If Theresa May can only get a Commons majority for a Brexit deal by aligning to Labour’s Brexit position of agreeing a permanent customs union which rules out free trade deals, many ministers and MPs will view it as a price not worth paying. ‘If it’s a choice between splitting the party over trade, risking no deal, or taking a chance on the polls and getting a deal through, it has to be the latter,’ argues a government advisor."
On topic - it would be something of an irony if, after the Democrats have fought desperately to keep Trump out of the White House, bewailed his presence there and condemned everything he's ever said or done, impeachment were finally to be initiated by a Republican - because the Dems feel it's electorally advantageous to leave him in office, regardless of how much more damage they think he might do over the remainder of his term. So much for the moral high ground.
Politicians putting Party before Country? How shocking!
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
I was in touch with an old friend of mine in the US South recently; she went through a hard time in the financial crash, losing her home and her marriage, and when I last heard from her she was working on min wage in a restaurant while both she and her daughter retrained as hairdressers.
Five years on the daughter is making a six figure income touring the US giving motivational speaking sessions and selling online courses for hair salons, with my friend as her manager; they both now own their own houses. Which for them is really good news; I took a look at some of her stuff and the confidence and passion is very evident, but the actual content is mostly the same 'believe in yourself (and you will get rich)' message you'd get probably from any evangelical church. Indeed they've really just taken the motivational approach from evangelism and applied it very successfully to hairdressing, in a way that I cannot ever see working over here.
I think the lack of employment and social protections in America, and much more rudimentary welfare system allows that to happen very easily in the USA. Even the seemingly secure are often only one serious illness, or lost paycheck away from falling through the bottom, and it is not easy to recover. Worth thinking about in the context of the US shutdown. America does not have anywhere as much social mobility as it thinks it does. Indeed less than UK and other European countries.
Except that my friend's success is mobility, and they would say an example of the American dream. She's clearly establishing her daughter as a brand within the industry and who knows where that might lead; the daughter is only about 30. The point, I guess, is that she is making money from teaching not doing, and it simply wont be possible for thousands to replicate the same success.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
I'll concede "drink-addled" but the rest, no.
I can't refute "dishonest" or "incompetent" or anything because I don't know what you're getting at but he's definitely not a nobody. I accept that Luxembourg isn't a huge country but it's impressive to be PM of anywhere for 18 years, then President of the Eurogroup, then the first elected President of the EU Commission. Like him or not, he's definitely a somebody.
If he was really a nobody then you wouldn't be bitching about him.
Terrible terrible news. These idiots are desperate to avoid a decision they'll do anything to give a cause for delay. Well the Tories won't get my vote this time that's for sure.
I can't claim to be an authority on Grabcoque but having just flicked through the last thread I can understand where he's coming from. Like a lot of us he's a very angry Remainer who is swinging wildly. It's very difficult to understand why Leavers want to leave.
Slogans yes but no serious explanation of why those of us to whom it makes a difference should have our livelihoods and wellbeing wrecked on a whim or worse; I heard a phone- in the other day when someone was asked what they meant by 'losing sovereignty'? 'they're telling us we have to have straight bananas'. On being by the interviewer that was found to be untrue they said 'Oh. Well they made us bring in decimalisation'.
The point is that Leaving is going to cost maybe 25% of us in very direct terms and another say 20% in the way we see ourselves. And for what?
That's why Remainers are angry and see Leavers as a malevolent wrecking ball. Old people who want to turn the clocks back. Right wing nationalists with ugly motives and the majority who just think that as it doesn't affect them so why not? There's a lot to be angry about
Roger, for your explanation I suggest you look towards the arrogant shits in Brussels who strutt about thinking they own Europe.
It's a club. No more no less. You have no reason to call them arrogant shits. The EU have never given the impression of being more or less important than their members of which we were one and as for membership rules they are a lot more democratic than most clubs. Just try getting into Grouchos!
You must have a very high arrogance threshold.
Roger inhabits a completely different universe to 99% of the country. It's not arrogance, he just doesn't live a normal life. He has no more understanding of life outside his bubble than I do of life outside my bubble, but his bubble has better coffee and sunsets. To be fair to him, he's not the only one on here who has a hard job using his diamond encrusted platinum airmiles every month.
It is worth meeting @roger in person. I warmed to him considerably one PB drinks night. I rather enjoy his online rants about Hartlepool etc, underneath he is quite a caring sort.
But part of the fun of online posting is allowing Mr Hyde out at night, while good Dr Jeckyll takes a rest.
If the ship keeps afloat, the rats will stay on board. It certainly looks as though the recent listing of the SS Trump has come at a very unfortunate time for that empty vessel.
Matthew Parris in the Times today says the Tories should expel the headbangers
Which helps them how? They won't pass a deal or win any elections without them.
No, they're stuck. It seems as those talks are going nowhere as no party has an incentive to bend, and the best ideas being floated are just delay delay delay without actually tackling the issue. May is frozen in place, unable to offer the EU more and the EU so intent now on remain they don't care to offer more.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
I'll concede "drink-addled" but the rest, no.
I can't refute "dishonest" or "incompetent" or anything because I don't know what you're getting at but he's definitely not a nobody. I accept that Luxembourg isn't a huge country but it's impressive to be PM of anywhere for 18 years, then President of the Eurogroup, then the first elected President of the EU Commission. Like him or not, he's definitely a somebody.
If he was really a nobody then you wouldn't be bitching about him.
He is widely regarded as extremely capable and although a serious drinker, hardly in the Churchill class. The EU has been his life's work and as a consequence he must have been mortified to find its very existence threatened by Brexit.
If he were a humble and honest man he might concede that he was wrong to send Cameron away empty-handed, but then in my experience Politicians don't do humility. It may have been a big mistake but from the EU's point of view, it would appear one he has got away with.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
Anger is what delivered you your Brexit. You should be delighted with it, shouldn’t you?
Despite the dip still extaordinary approval ratings considering what the man is like. What kind of people are these 'White Evangelicals' who appear to love him? Does their religion include not being judgemental? There can be no explanation other than that they are seeing a different version of Trump to the one we're seeing.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
That is one of the most interesting articles that I have read on Trump and his appeal.
"The more people worshipping and studying with neighbors with whom they shared a higher cause, the less belief that the American Dream was dead."
America has long been more religious than Europe, but I do think that there are parallels in the WWC Brexit vote in the UK. Here religion was less a factor than the decline of social institutions such as workplaces and trade unions. Atomised communities have much less commitment to the status quo. There is a Trump like desire in Brexit to create something to believe in.
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
A 1% per annum drop in Americans self describing as Christians is quite a strong trend, and across all parts of society, so seems to be a cultural change rather than a demographic one.
Is it perhaps a reflection of the rise of online communities (like this) replacing in person communities. Food for thought.
People getting their fake news from other sources.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
Quite. The most important thing I've learned through all of this is not to bother worrying about things over which you have no control. Even if that's not always easy.
There's nothing wrong in taking positions on things that happen out in the big wide world, just so long as you try to remind yourself at regular intervals that it's just an interest/hobby/intellectual exercise and you've no meaningful degree of responsibility for any of it. And, beyond making sensible financial preparations, there's nothing positive you can achieve in response to these large-scale events, either.
Terrible terrible news. These idiots are desperate to avoid a decision they'll do anything to give a cause for delay. Well the Tories won't get my vote this time that's for sure.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
Nope, you’d have to stupid, cold or just plain weird not to be upset/angry about this a mess.
Which helps them how? They won't pass a deal or win any elections without them.
Sooner or later a way through (or from) Brexit will be found. Tory Brexiteers may not accept it. The whip can be withdrawn from rebels, who may not then stand as Conservatives again. Brexiteers should be shown the door, and ushered regretfully out — to become, perhaps, part of a rebirth of what was once Ukip. The Conservative Party may never govern again except in coalition. But British politics will be healthier and more honest if we show, and march under, our true colours.
Only a matter of time before Labour activists start claiming the GE result will be rigged by the Deep State.
I know someone (not a labour activist I hasten to add) who thinks the BBC edits footage like May visiting Salisbury after the Novichok incident, that she was never there the BBC just made it look like she was. They think that happens all the time.
Which helps them how? They won't pass a deal or win any elections without them.
Sooner or later a way through (or from) Brexit will be found. Tory Brexiteers may not accept it. The whip can be withdrawn from rebels, who may not then stand as Conservatives again. Brexiteers should be shown the door, and ushered regretfully out — to become, perhaps, part of a rebirth of what was once Ukip. The Conservative Party may never govern again except in coalition. But British politics will be healthier and more honest if we show, and march under, our true colours.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
I'll concede "drink-addled" but the rest, no.
I can't refute "dishonest" or "incompetent" or anything because I don't know what you're getting at but he's definitely not a nobody. I accept that Luxembourg isn't a huge country but it's impressive to be PM of anywhere for 18 years, then President of the Eurogroup, then the first elected President of the EU Commission. Like him or not, he's definitely a somebody.
If he was really a nobody then you wouldn't be bitching about him.
He is widely regarded as extremely capable and although a serious drinker, hardly in the Churchill class. The EU has been his life's work and as a consequence he must have been mortified to find its very existence threatened by Brexit.
If he were a humble and honest man he might concede that he was wrong to send Cameron away empty-handed, but then in my experience Politicians don't do humility. It may have been a big mistake but from the EU's point of view, it would appear one he has got away with.
It was a mistake only so far as the immediate issue of UK exit.
Giving Cameron more concessions might seem sensible now, but it could have opened up the risk of a number of countries banging on his door asking for concessions or they would hold their own referendum. The EU is run on the basis of avoiding significant concessions to a member state pour encourager les autres. You can dislike the system in principle but as a sizeable bloc which requires a degree of synchronicity and unity to function effectively, it makes sense to try to avoid pleasing one member above the others.
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
I was in touch with an old friend of mine in the US South recently; she went through a hard time in the financial crash, losing her home and her marriage, and when I last heard from her she was working on min wage in a restaurant while both she and her daughter retrained as hairdressers.
Five years on the daughter is making a six figure income touring the US giving motivational speaking sessions and selling online courses for hair salons, with my friend as her manager; they both now own their own houses. Which for them is really good news; I took a look at some of her stuff and the confidence and passion is very evident, but the actual content is mostly the same 'believe in yourself (and you will get rich)' message you'd get probably from any evangelical church. Indeed they've really just taken the motivational approach from evangelism and applied it very successfully to hairdressing, in a way that I cannot ever see working over here.
I think the lack of employment and social protections in America, and much more rudimentary welfare system allows that to happen very easily in the USA. Even the seemingly secure are often only one serious illness, or lost paycheck away from falling through the bottom, and it is not easy to recover. Worth thinking about in the context of the US shutdown. America does not have anywhere as much social mobility as it thinks it does. Indeed less than UK and other European countries.
Only a matter of time before Labour activists start claiming the GE result will be rigged by the Deep State.
TBH I think people aren't considering the obvious answer that they are idiots who don't check what they are told. There would be some dishonest people claiming the Tories are 5-6% ahead with full knowledge of what they are doing but those on the BBC for example are just used to taken these right wing / centrist takes as a given.
And the BBC pushing, not even a view, but something clearly false is a bit problematic even if it is down to incompetence rather than malice. I can understand why you may personally be less bothered by that and more bothered that people have complained about it though.
The discussion then spiraled down and became intensely personal and frankly unnecessary.
We live in an internet age but I have deliberately not joined twitter because of the appalling abuse but PB is a ‘beacon of political discussion’, often hard fought and at times with unnecessary language but that is to be expected in these highly contentious times.
I try to post honestly, refraining from personal abuse, and arguing my case as best as I can without using unnecessary language. It is not because I am a snowflake, far from it, but I do respect people, was appalled at Farage use of migrants in the Brexit campaign, and am indeed happy for as many people to come into this Country, as the Country can accommodate and improve diversity
I am a member of the conservative party but far removed from the Brexiteers and more in line with TM views though while she has great strengths, she does have many faults like we all do
I do hope the moderators will allow Grabcogue back in due course as he was a very good contributor and actually on occasions I agreed with his comments
Finally I would like to thank everyone for their kind support over this issue and regret the length of this post
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
Except that my friend's success is mobility, and they would say an example of the American dream. She's clearly establishing her daughter as a brand within the industry and who knows where that might lead; the daughter is only about 30. The point, I guess, is that she is making money from teaching not doing, and it simply wont be possible for thousands to replicate the same success.
Americans can go broke and re-invent themselves quite easily, but It doesn't sound as if your friend started broke, albeit having some very tough years. A dip is different to starting with nothing as social capital and education is not completely lost.
Trump is a charlatan, but his story of climb to riches is very appealing for those who want to cling to the American Dream, however mythical that really is.
Trump sold a dream, as did the Brexiteers, with similar problems of delivery. People need dreams though. At the end of the day people need a reason to believe.
If he were a humble and honest man he might concede that he was wrong to send Cameron away empty-handed, but then in my experience Politicians don't do humility. It may have been a big mistake but from the EU's point of view, it would appear one he has got away with.
I'm not convinced. Even Cameron had asked for something meaningful and Juncker had had the authority to give it to him - and I don't think either of those hold - the Leave campaign ended up running on Turkish immigration, which the UK already had a veto on. What was Juncker supposed to do, give him *two* vetoes?
I would be very surprised and somewhat disappointed if TM called a GE not least because neither main party has a position on it
I read yesterday that labour cannot bring another vonc as the wording is set in the procedure and you cannot bring back the vonc in the same session for that reason
Terrible terrible news. These idiots are desperate to avoid a decision they'll do anything to give a cause for delay. Well the Tories won't get my vote this time that's for sure.
No-one will get mine.
I've never been so tempted. The Tories don't deserve it. Corbyn hasn't earned it. The lds surely don't even want my vote. UKIP are bonkers. The Greens are Corbyn without any moderates.
Its basically likely to be Lds by default even though the leadership seem pretty clear they would rather not have the votes of leavers and coalition supporters.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
I'll concede "drink-addled" but the rest, no.
I can't refute "dishonest" or "incompetent" or anything because I don't know what you're getting at but he's definitely not a nobody. I accept that Luxembourg isn't a huge country but it's impressive to be PM of anywhere for 18 years, then President of the Eurogroup, then the first elected President of the EU Commission. Like him or not, he's definitely a somebody.
If he was really a nobody then you wouldn't be bitching about him.
Have you looked into his business practices in Luxembourg?
The discussion then spiraled down and became intensely personal and frankly unnecessary.
We live in an internet age but I have deliberately not joined twitter because of the appalling abuse but PB is a ‘beacon of political discussion’, often hard fought and at times with unnecessary language but that is to be expected in these highly contentious times.
I try to post honestly, refraining from personal abuse, and arguing my case as best as I can without using unnecessary language. It is not because I am a snowflake, far from it, but I do respect people, was appalled at Farage use of migrants in the Brexit campaign, and am indeed happy for as many people to come into this Country, as the Country can accommodate and improve diversity
I am a member of the conservative party but far removed from the Brexiteers and more in line with TM views though while she has great strengths, she does have many faults like we all do
I do hope the moderators will allow Grabcogue back in due course as he was a very good contributor and actually on occasions I agreed with his comments
Finally I would like to thank everyone for their kind support over this issue and regret the length of this post
I’m a bit annoyed that grabcoque was banned. His invective was often very funny, and pretty much all we had now that SeanT has found marital bliss.
This is part of the problem. eBay Martin Amis can say whatever the fuck he wants and others unwisely assume that's it's a universally applied standard.
Sean has been banned several times over the years though. For some reason he has mellowed greatly since shacking up with a 23-year-old Corbynista.
I have been banned multiple times, too many to remember.
I have been banned just the once, I think. A few days in the cooler helped me calm down. It does seem that @grabcoque does have a few anger issues, and not just online. His posts last night were certainly out of order.
Remember 'isam'? He really was the 'Cooler King' of PB. Sadly, he appears now to have ridden his motorbike into its final fence.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
Except that my friend's success is mobility, and they would say an example of the American dream. She's clearly establishing her daughter as a brand within the industry and who knows where that might lead; the daughter is only about 30. The point, I guess, is that she is making money from teaching not doing, and it simply wont be possible for thousands to replicate the same success.
Americans can go broke and re-invent themselves quite easily, but It doesn't sound as if your friend started broke, albeit having some very tough years. A dip is different to starting with nothing as social capital and education is not completely lost.
Trump is a charlatan, but his story of climb to riches is very appealing for those who want to cling to the American Dream, however mythical that really is.
Trump sold a dream, as did the Brexiteers, with similar problems of delivery. People need dreams though. At the end of the day people need a reason to believe.
... and one of the ‘problems’ with the post-war consensus (which avoided above all else radicalism) is that dreams from a voters perspective are harder to deliver. That’s not a bad thing per se and has given us significant stability for the past 6 decades, but it is starting to lose the support of the voters, which is leading to a crisis.
Only a matter of time before Labour activists start claiming the GE result will be rigged by the Deep State.
But they aren't six points behind. Only one pollster has them behind.
It's not untrue for someone to say they are 6 behind or might be precisely because 1 pollster says they are. It's not a lie. It is true that other pollsters show a different picture but we don't know which is right of any so pointing out they might be 6 behind is acceptable, but really should be caveated. But even so it is not some conspiracy to deceive.
Morning all. Hate Trump. Hate him more than Brexit. Dump Trump!
But what's new. Poster getting banned, I see. Did not realize that happened on here. Is it a badge of honour, like getting called into the Principal's office at school for six of the best? That used to create heroes at my one. One boy, I remember, who ... no, forget it.
On the problematical topic - death and demographics - I would like to risk a couple of contributions:
Firstly re Brexit and the Curtice calculation that the Leave majority has died off. I find this valid and interesting and relevant, but my take is the opposite to Polly Toynbee. I think that it makes it even more essential that the referendum result is honoured. Why? Because we are talking not about mere votes now, but about people's dying wish. How much more powerful is the expressed and sombre will of a person on their death bed than that of somebody in the prime of life chatting casually in Starbucks? Immeasurably, surely. In fact, how many Leavers have actually mentioned it in their physical will? A fair few, I would wager. There was real passion in the Leave vote that the Remain one just did not have. I've made that point before.
So, sorry Polly - and banned poster - you have it wrong.
Secondly, it got me thinking about SINDY, where similar demographic considerations apply, I believe. How long before the Unionist majority has 'gone' up there? Has the Prof done a calculation on that one?
Only a matter of time before Labour activists start claiming the GE result will be rigged by the Deep State.
But they aren't six points behind. Only one pollster has them behind.
This is why we need institutions such as the BBC otherwise more conspiracy theorists like Alistair may appear doubting the Tories giant lead in the polls listening to 'other pollsters'
A curious feature of his support is that it inversely proportional to church attendance.
White evangelicals who go to church, don't vote for him much. White evangelicals who don't go to church vote for him a lot...
/
That is one of the
Do we infer from this that America is finally starting to become less religious? I have seen this reported in relation to the upcoming generation, so I guess it might simply be a matter of time, but I haven't seen anything about falling observance amongst the boomer and X generations?
Generalising horribly, Americans do seem to have a greater need to get a regular fix from some sort of motivational life coach than we more cynical Brits.
I was in touch with an old friend of mine in the US South recently; she went through a hard time in the financial crash, losing her home and her marriage, and when I last heard from her she was working on min wage in a restaurant while both she and her daughter retrained as hairdressers.
Five years on the daughter is making a six figure income touring the US giving motivational speaking sessions and selling online courses for hair salons, with my friend as her manager; they both now own their own houses. Which for them is really good news; I took a look at some of her stuff and the confidence and passion is very evident, but the actual content is mostly the same 'believe in yourself (and you will get rich)' message you'd get probably from any evangelical church. Indeed they've really just taken the motivational approach from evangelism and applied it very successfully to hairdressing, in a way that I cannot ever see working over here.
I think the lack of employment and social protections in America, and much more rudimentary welfare system allows that to happen very easily in the USA. Even the seemingly secure are often only one serious illness, or lost paycheck away from falling through the bottom, and it is not easy to recover. Worth thinking about in the context of the US shutdown. America does not have anywhere as much social mobility as it thinks it does. Indeed less than UK and other European countries.
I would be very surprised and somewhat disappointed if TM called a GE not least because neither main party has a position on it
I read yesterday that labour cannot bring another vonc as the wording is set in the procedure and you cannot bring back the vonc in the same session for that reason
Not sure how true that is
Irrelevant anyway, as Cable has indicated the LDs wouldn't support another without him shifting position on a second referendum.
If the ship keeps afloat, the rats will stay on board. It certainly looks as though the recent listing of the SS Trump has come at a very unfortunate time for that empty vessel.
From a betting viewpoint you need to keep checking his approval rating.
For a normal President, anything below 40% would be regarded as dangerous. Trump isn't normal though and has been as low as 35% at times. More recently and up until The Wall fiasco he has maintained a relatively healthy and steady 40+. He has in recent days dipped down below 40 again, and it's been quite a sharp drop so it is undeniably down the shutdown.
I think he could be in trouble if he drops below 38% again because we are getting fairly close to the next election and as has been suggested upstream here, his own Party may want to ditch him before he can damage them further.
The Democrats are of course delighted for him to remain, but then what the hell do they care about the state of the nation, or even the security of the world, as long as they get back in office.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
Nope, you’d have to stupid, cold or just plain weird not to be upset/angry about this a mess.
If you are angry about the risk of No Deal Brexit, then get angry that a Labour Party barely a cigarette paper thickness apart from May's Deal won't switch off the No Deal life suport for party-political advantage. Therei s so much cant coming from Labour.
I would be very surprised and somewhat disappointed if TM called a GE not least because neither main party has a position on it
I read yesterday that labour cannot bring another vonc as the wording is set in the procedure and you cannot bring back the vonc in the same session for that reason
Not sure how true that is
Depends on if it might win whether Bercow would find a way to allow it.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
Anger is what delivered you your Brexit. You should be delighted with it, shouldn’t you?
Anger is a word with too many meanings. There is a world of difference between the violent anger of hatred to the righteous anger that motivates the fight for justice. Anger is an energy, it is how you use it to change the world that makes the difference.
Parris: "If Yvette Cooper (or indeed her husband Ed Balls) were opposition leader in a general election today, the Tories would be out on their ear tomorrow."
This is the stark reality that Labour activists need to wake up to. Jezza is an albatross.
Only a matter of time before Labour activists start claiming the GE result will be rigged by the Deep State.
But they aren't six points behind. Only one pollster has them behind.
It's not untrue for someone to say they are 6 behind or might be precisely because 1 pollster says they are. It's not a lie. It is true that other pollsters show a different picture but we don't know which is right of any so pointing out they might be 6 behind is acceptable, but really should be caveated. But even so it is not some conspiracy to deceive.
If it isn't malice, which I suspect it isn't (at least mostly) then it is downright incompetence. If they work on political shows and plan on mentioning polling then they should be aware of more than one polling company. You could understand people being a little suspicious when the only polling company they are aware of happens to be the one most skewed in its results towards a certain view.
If someone did want to push a certain view they would do much the same.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
I'll concede "drink-addled" but the rest, no.
I can't refute "dishonest" or "incompetent" or anything because I don't know what you're getting at but he's definitely not a nobody. I accept that Luxembourg isn't a huge country but it's impressive to be PM of anywhere for 18 years, then President of the Eurogroup, then the first elected President of the EU Commission. Like him or not, he's definitely a somebody.
If he was really a nobody then you wouldn't be bitching about him.
Have you looked into his business practices in Luxembourg?
Of course he didn't want tax reform, he was PM of *Luxembourg*. It's a *tax haven*. It was his job to block tax reform. Weird how people who are so big on their leaders standing up for their national interests suddenly complain when other people's leaders stand up for other countries' national interests.
As for the wiretapping I'm opposed, but don't think other PMs are any different. After Snowden we know they're not: If you give governments the ability to listen in on phone calls, they're going to abuse it. Your government is abusing this power, right now. In any case, the claim was that he was a "nobody". What you're telling me is that he was a somebody, and a somebody who was listening in on your phone calls.
If you are not angry about the current Brexit situation... If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into... If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al. If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
or you could just stop being angry about everything and get a life
Nope, you’d have to stupid, cold or just plain weird not to be upset/angry about this a mess.
If you are angry about the risk of No Deal Brexit, then get angry that a Labour Party barely a cigarette paper thickness apart from May's Deal won't switch off the No Deal life suport for party-political advantage. Therei s so much cant coming from Labour.
If the distance is so slight, then why cannot May move?
Her problem is that she thinks compromise means the other party giving in.
Comments
That is perfectly legitimate reporting and for discussion though I see Polly Toynbee went over the top celebrating the change and attracted widespread criticism and demands she resigns from her position at the Guardian
However Grabcoque took it to another level last night when I objected to this post
'Happy Feast of St. Gammon's Day, to one and all.
It's on this happy day of the year, we like to remember the gammons that got us into this fucking mess, and celebrate that due to the passage of time and their advanced age and poor diet, the UK's leave majority has fucked off to the land of eternal rest so we don't have to suffer their shit any more.'
I responded by commenting
My business partner and best friend of 50 years died last week, another colleague the week before, and two more long time friends
And you spout that disgusting celebration of the death of the elderly
You should be ashamed of yourself
It is not funny nor respecting life and added a further comment
I would just comment to my fellow posters and the moderators that if this abuse of the dying elderly is permitted to continue I shall, regrettably, have to stop posting
Grabcoque’s response was
'I mean, most of the serious, possibly existential problems that plague this planet are the gift of the oldies. The most obnoxiously selfish generations in a millennium. Brexit is their last gasp in the UK, and I think we should be thankful that the ravages of time are finally robbing us of their tendency and determination to turn everything to shit.
That said, in this case, I wasn't celebrating the death of all old people, just old leavers.'
Part 1
The discussion then spiraled down and became intensely personal and frankly unnecessary.
We live in an internet age but I have deliberately not joined twitter because of the appalling abuse but PB is a ‘beacon of political discussion’, often hard fought and at times with unnecessary language but that is to be expected in these highly contentious times.
I try to post honestly, refraining from personal abuse, and arguing my case as best as I can without using unnecessary language. It is not because I am a snowflake, far from it, but I do respect people, was appalled at Farage use of migrants in the Brexit campaign, and am indeed happy for as many people to come into this Country, as the Country can accommodate and improve diversity
I am a member of the conservative party but far removed from the Brexiteers and more in line with TM views though while she has great strengths, she does have many faults like we all do
I do hope the moderators will allow Grabcogue back in due course as he was a very good contributor and actually on occasions I agreed with his comments
Finally I would like to thank everyone for their kind support over this issue and regret the length of this post
Edit/ to achieve the level of secularism that we have looks at least a generation away, however
https://twitter.com/JoeMyGod/status/1059455884194004992
Some word, some flesh.
PS: Not for a long time mind you
To put it in Simpsons Terms, where everyone seems to go to the services of the Reverend Lovejoy, Ned Flanders would not vote Trump, but the barflys of Mo's bar would. Nonetheless they all attend. The ups and downs of the church are well chronicled here, including its several bankrupcies:
http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/First_Church_of_Springfield
If their standards were applied here there would be none of us left!
That said, I am starting to waver. I have no doubt that Trumps base is fired up and I strongly believe he will win the nomination for 2020 if he seeks it, but it feels like there is now a bit of a shift given recent events and the constant drip-drip of bad news from the investigations and the shutdown.
Trumps strength is the Democrats decisions about how they fight him. Do they go with a die-hard coastal liberal who can enthuse their own base but risk wavering voters who voted Trump in 2016 moving back into his column, or do they do for a centrist unifier who can potentially command broad support and run on a message of healing the country, but risk turning off the left and depressing turnout in significant demographics?
My view is that someone like Warren is going to struggle against Trump. A name that has been mentioned on here a few times is Klobuchar. I saw an interview with her the other day and thought she was quietly impressive, rational and sensible without being ‘scary’ to moderates. I don’t know how well she would do in a nomination fight but I do think America is crying out for someone sensible who can tone down the ugly partisan rhetoric and (an oft overused term) reach across the aisle and try and heal the country. Whether America at large would vote for that, I don’t know at this stage.
In summary, I think 2020 is all to play for but don’t underestimate the significance of the Democratic nominee.
If you are not enraged by May about the abyss she has dragged the country into...
If you are not steaming about red lines and the unconstructive absolutistist approach of politicians the ERG,Corbyn et al.
If you are not upset with the how politics has been hijacked by a nasty minority online...
Then you should be banned. Because there is something seriously wrong with you.
TM seems to be standing firm and is spending the weekend with the DUP at Chequers. Of course if she gets ERG and DUP on side her deal will pass. I expect that is where her focus is
I was in touch with an old friend of mine in the US South recently; she went through a hard time in the financial crash, losing her home and her marriage, and when I last heard from her she was working on min wage in a restaurant while both she and her daughter retrained as hairdressers.
Five years on the daughter is making a six figure income touring the US giving motivational speaking sessions and selling online courses for hair salons, with my friend as her manager; they both now own their own houses. Which for them is really good news; I took a look at some of her stuff and the confidence and passion is very evident, but the actual content is mostly the same 'believe in yourself (and you will get rich)' message you'd get probably from any evangelical church. Indeed they've really just taken the motivational approach from evangelism and applied it very successfully to hairdressing, in a way that I cannot ever see working over here.
The problem with the EU is it's never quite decided what it is or what it's for. Obviously, for a very large number of very influential people it is a nascent state. For others, it is a free trade area. For yet others, it is a supranational institution on the lines of the African Union. That, of course, is in its own way healthy. New ideas are to be encouraged and debate is always good. The bigger problem is that for many years the Commission has been dominated by the first group and especially under Juncker has increasingly behaved like a national Cabinet. Which it isn't.
And as for Juncker, if you're saying he's not a thoroughly loathsome, dishonest, incompetent and increasingly drink-addled nobody who would be unfit to run Llangurig Parish Council - you need to find out more about him.
Have a good morning.
As far as I can ascertain from GC's posting, the ladies had very little to worry about.
Is it perhaps a reflection of the rise of online communities (like this) replacing in person communities. Food for thought.
Still the "Poland Story" is as nothing compared to the "Hong Kong Story" which I only tell on Taranto Night...
Make of that what you will.
"Theresa May made no change to her Brexit demands in cross-Channel phone calls with European Union leaders despite her own plan being heavily defeated by MPs earlier this week, it has been reported.
"The Prime Minister left EU diplomats in a state of 'disbelief' over her failure to shift her stance despite the historic defeat by a margin of 230 votes, a source said."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6609163/Theresa-leaves-EU-leaders-disbelief-fails-make-new-Brexit-demands.html
"Regardless, some in government reluctantly see [a General Election] as a possible way to avoid an irreparable party split over Brexit. If Theresa May can only get a Commons majority for a Brexit deal by aligning to Labour’s Brexit position of agreeing a permanent customs union which rules out free trade deals, many ministers and MPs will view it as a price not worth paying. ‘If it’s a choice between splitting the party over trade, risking no deal, or taking a chance on the polls and getting a deal through, it has to be the latter,’ argues a government advisor."
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/why-conservative-mps-are-talking-about-an-early-election/
**********
On topic - it would be something of an irony if, after the Democrats have fought desperately to keep Trump out of the White House, bewailed his presence there and condemned everything he's ever said or done, impeachment were finally to be initiated by a Republican - because the Dems feel it's electorally advantageous to leave him in office, regardless of how much more damage they think he might do over the remainder of his term. So much for the moral high ground.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1086562297005379584?s=19
The history of the evangelical right and Roe vs Wade is interesting. Anti abortion activism amongst white evangelicals only really picked up in the 80's. Scholars attribute this to the final defeat of various racist evangelical policies (segregated schooling etc). The evangelical right then pivoted to abortion as their wedge issue.
You'd never catch our lot doing that.....
I can't refute "dishonest" or "incompetent" or anything because I don't know what you're getting at but he's definitely not a nobody. I accept that Luxembourg isn't a huge country but it's impressive to be PM of anywhere for 18 years, then President of the Eurogroup, then the first elected President of the EU Commission. Like him or not, he's definitely a somebody.
If he was really a nobody then you wouldn't be bitching about him.
Seems I missed an 'entertaining' evening, in the worst sense.
Looking at what Big_G has reposted, I think a wise decision was taken.
But part of the fun of online posting is allowing Mr Hyde out at night, while good Dr Jeckyll takes a rest.
Only a matter of time before Labour activists start claiming the GE result will be rigged by the Deep State.
No, they're stuck. It seems as those talks are going nowhere as no party has an incentive to bend, and the best ideas being floated are just delay delay delay without actually tackling the issue. May is frozen in place, unable to offer the EU more and the EU so intent now on remain they don't care to offer more.
If he were a humble and honest man he might concede that he was wrong to send Cameron away empty-handed, but then in my experience Politicians don't do humility. It may have been a big mistake but from the EU's point of view, it would appear one he has got away with.
There's nothing wrong in taking positions on things that happen out in the big wide world, just so long as you try to remind yourself at regular intervals that it's just an interest/hobby/intellectual exercise and you've no meaningful degree of responsibility for any of it. And, beyond making sensible financial preparations, there's nothing positive you can achieve in response to these large-scale events, either.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/tories-need-to-show-their-right-wing-the-exit-r607bt6f0
Giving Cameron more concessions might seem sensible now, but it could have opened up the risk of a number of countries banging on his door asking for concessions or they would hold their own referendum. The EU is run on the basis of avoiding significant concessions to a member state pour encourager les autres. You can dislike the system in principle but as a sizeable bloc which requires a degree of synchronicity and unity to function effectively, it makes sense to try to avoid pleasing one member above the others.
And the BBC pushing, not even a view, but something clearly false is a bit problematic even if it is down to incompetence rather than malice. I can understand why you may personally be less bothered by that and more bothered that people have complained about it though.
Trump is a charlatan, but his story of climb to riches is very appealing for those who want to cling to the American Dream, however mythical that really is.
Trump sold a dream, as did the Brexiteers, with similar problems of delivery. People need dreams though. At the end of the day people need a reason to believe.
I read yesterday that labour cannot bring another vonc as the wording is set in the procedure and you cannot bring back the vonc in the same session for that reason
Not sure how true that is
Its basically likely to be Lds by default even though the leadership seem pretty clear they would rather not have the votes of leavers and coalition supporters.
Blocking EU tax reforms in Luxembourg: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/01/jean-claude-juncker-blocked-eu-curbs-on-tax-avoidance-cables-show
https://euobserver.com/economic/130315
Telephone interception:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/13/jean-claude-juncker-drawn-back-wiretapping-scandal/
that caused him to resign as PM:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23264789
But what's new. Poster getting banned, I see. Did not realize that happened on here. Is it a badge of honour, like getting called into the Principal's office at school for six of the best? That used to create heroes at my one. One boy, I remember, who ... no, forget it.
On the problematical topic - death and demographics - I would like to risk a couple of contributions:
Firstly re Brexit and the Curtice calculation that the Leave majority has died off. I find this valid and interesting and relevant, but my take is the opposite to Polly Toynbee. I think that it makes it even more essential that the referendum result is honoured. Why? Because we are talking not about mere votes now, but about people's dying wish. How much more powerful is the expressed and sombre will of a person on their death bed than that of somebody in the prime of life chatting casually in Starbucks? Immeasurably, surely. In fact, how many Leavers have actually mentioned it in their physical will? A fair few, I would wager. There was real passion in the Leave vote that the Remain one just did not have. I've made that point before.
So, sorry Polly - and banned poster - you have it wrong.
Secondly, it got me thinking about SINDY, where similar demographic considerations apply, I believe. How long before the Unionist majority has 'gone' up there? Has the Prof done a calculation on that one?
For a normal President, anything below 40% would be regarded as dangerous. Trump isn't normal though and has been as low as 35% at times. More recently and up until The Wall fiasco he has maintained a relatively healthy and steady 40+. He has in recent days dipped down below 40 again, and it's been quite a sharp drop so it is undeniably down the shutdown.
I think he could be in trouble if he drops below 38% again because we are getting fairly close to the next election and as has been suggested upstream here, his own Party may want to ditch him before he can damage them further.
The Democrats are of course delighted for him to remain, but then what the hell do they care about the state of the nation, or even the security of the world, as long as they get back in office.
This is the stark reality that Labour activists need to wake up to. Jezza is an albatross.
If someone did want to push a certain view they would do much the same.
As for the wiretapping I'm opposed, but don't think other PMs are any different. After Snowden we know they're not: If you give governments the ability to listen in on phone calls, they're going to abuse it. Your government is abusing this power, right now. In any case, the claim was that he was a "nobody". What you're telling me is that he was a somebody, and a somebody who was listening in on your phone calls.
Her problem is that she thinks compromise means the other party giving in.