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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The choice between heating and eating: Marf gives her take

SystemSystem Posts: 12,250
edited October 2013 in General

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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    First!
  • I know how PB loves a Scottish tram...

    http://tinyurl.com/qgudjdf
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301
    Dave's fault for not being positive about the prospect of Major's windfall tax. If he had come out at PMQs and said it was a good idea etc... and that the money raised could be used to lower the cost of living for people by freezing fuel duty as promised by the chancellor then the whole energy price debate would be over.

    However, Dave isn't a particularly good politician or tactician and it seems like number 10 is full of the same lame duck ideas. That they have been outmanoeuvred by John Major is disappointing. Lynton Crosby needs to earn his crust, forget about immigration, concentrate on the issues that affect people's pockets.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    Good cartoon Marf. I like it a lot.
  • MaxPB said:

    Dave's fault for not being positive about the prospect of Major's windfall tax. If he had come out at PMQs and said it was a good idea etc... and that the money raised could be used to lower the cost of living for people by freezing fuel duty as promised by the chancellor then the whole energy price debate would be over.

    However, Dave isn't a particularly good politician or tactician and it seems like number 10 is full of the same lame duck ideas. That they have been outmanoeuvred by John Major is disappointing. Lynton Crosby needs to earn his crust, forget about immigration, concentrate on the issues that affect people's pockets.

    Nonsense. You can't have a windfall tax unless there's a windfall to tax, a minor point which the entire commentariat appears to have missed.
  • MaxPB said:

    Dave's fault for not being positive about the prospect of Major's windfall tax. If he had come out at PMQs and said it was a good idea etc... and that the money raised could be used to lower the cost of living for people by freezing fuel duty as promised by the chancellor then the whole energy price debate would be over.

    However, Dave isn't a particularly good politician or tactician and it seems like number 10 is full of the same lame duck ideas. That they have been outmanoeuvred by John Major is disappointing. Lynton Crosby needs to earn his crust, forget about immigration, concentrate on the issues that affect people's pockets.

    Having branded Ed's idea Marxist the Tories could not possibly approve of Major's idea, which is redistributive and genuinely left-wing.

  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    I realise that we are still in awe of the game changing performance of miliband yesterday and the fact that he has now totally changed as a parliamentary performer. However I am amazed at the lack of discussion of Labours biggest backer Unite and its performance as Grangemnouth. Playing silly political games Unite has led to the plant being closed, all those people losing their jobs and the impact it will have on the Scottish economy. Within a couple of days they have had to have a 100% humbling u-turn and the deal which they rejected out of hand on Monday they are pleading with the company to implement it. Tim must have had 100+ posts in the last day telling us all how crap Cameron is, yet nothing regarding Unite's shameful performance in this matter. If anyone wants to imagine what a Miliband led Labour Government in 2015 will be like, just needs to look at what has happened with Unite at Grangemouth. Everything will be about silly political games, not about whats good for the UK.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Roger, one assumes that you were taught by unqualified teachers at Millfield back in the day.

    Is that your excuse?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    I thought we might be having a thread on the sinking of the Tory flagship

    I can only imagine the type of person who would allow their child to be operated on by an unqualified surgeon.

    And yet here, in Britain today, we have parents queuing up for their children to be educated by a teacher who may be flagrantly without a PGCE.

    Monsters.
  • RE Southern Observer and the need for qualifeid teachers in primary schools

    I don't see the difference really . My daughter (year 4) benefited greatly from having an author come around to her school and taking aside kids who showed an interest in creative writing and mentoring them throughout the year. The author was not a teacher and not qualified but did far more for my daughter's creative writing than the normal English lesson doen by a qualified teacher. A good mix is ideal to me for both primary and secondary schools
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited October 2013
    FPT @NickPalmer

    Ah, you're one of those nutty pseudo-Keynesian debt deniers I read about? - the debt's going up a bit less fast, it's time to spend, spend! Tsk.

    That's a joke. But there's a more serious point. It's a curious feature of today's politics that Conservatives feel they've proved they're jolly austere so can move on to discuss tax cuts, while Labour tries to find ways to do popular things that don't cost money (the price freeze is a good example). The push to bring down the debt (sic) level at all costs has just evaporated.


    Nick

    The heavy grunt of reducing the debt/deficit has probably passed: at least for the short term.

    Sales of bank shares will see the headline debt figure (PSND) and the debt to GDP ratio tumble.

    On the deficit, current growth rates are already showing government revenues accelerate - currently 8.3% up on this year - whereas government expenditure growth is below the rate of inflation - currently 2.4% up. Even the troublesome 'variable costs' such as social benefits and interest payments are now under control - up 1.1% and 1.2% respectively.

    On the cash side, 'non-recurring' special revenues (principally BoE entrepreneurial income) and asset sales (e.g. Royal Mail, Bank Shares), which do not affect Public Sector Net Borrowing figures for accounting policy reasons, are significantly lowering the Central Government Net Cash Requirement (i.e. the actual amount the government needs to borrow). So actual borrowing needs are considerably lower than the accrued Net Borrowing figures shown in the National Accounts.

    The media reported the £1.1 bn reduction in PSNB in September 2013 but the real story was buried deeper in the ONS bulletin:

    The central government net cash requirement for the 2013/14 year to date was £39.7 billion, £12.4 billion, or 23.8%, lower than the same period in 2012/13.

    And the reductions in net cash requirements are accelerating by the month: September saw an £8.5 bn reduction alone.

    [to be continued...]
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited October 2013
    @NickPalmer

    [... continued]

    And, setting aside Central Government borrowing needs, the Public Sector Net Cash Requirement - which includes the intervened banks - is even fancier: a £43.4 bn surplus compared to a £22.6 bn surplus last year.

    Now before another richard storms in and cries "foul", I accept that the government is still spending more than it is receiving and therefore there remains an underlying deficit and continued need to borrow. Not though the £1 borrowed for every £4 pounds spent by your Mrs Rochester, but still a worrying £1 borrowed for every £6 spent.

    This means that there still needs to be more fiscal consolidation or 'austerity' (i.e. tax rises and spending cuts) to balance the books. But what George is doing by finding money down the back of the sofa is buying himself and the country time and flexibility. The underlying deficit will naturally fall as growth is sustained (tax revenues will rise and variable costs, e.g. out of work benefits etc, will fall). This reduces the requirement for further radical surgery: further tax rises and spending cuts can be gradually applied in gentler steps. And George has much greater flexibility in being able to respond to urgent political needs (e.g. rejigging green taxes on energy bills).

    This is "near perfect" master strategy at work. In the circumstances I recommend your immediate defection to the security of a blue future.
  • tim said:

    Perhaps the PM should have said that when he was flailing around incoherently yesterday.

    Yes, he should.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    edited October 2013
    I was invited to a model agency to see their new girls and they asked me to sit in on a catwalk lesson. This battle axe of a teacher in a leotard kept picking on a rather clumsy girl. Eventually the girl just burst into tears and the battle axe turned to her and said "my God! You can't even cry properly!"
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Nice one Marf – sometimes you do ‘alluring’ a little too well for comfort.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Love Ed's line yesterday about the Red Peril getting to Sir John Major
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    Roger said:

    I was invited to a model agency to see their new girls and they asked me to sit in on a catwalk lesson. This battle axe of a teacher in a leotard kept picking on a rather clumsy girl. Eventually the girl just burst into tears and the battle axe turned to her and said "my God! You can't even cry properly!"

    What lovely people you associate with. I bet you fitted right in.

    Did you suggest that the girl become a hairdresser?
  • Partial repost from last thread:

    The broader picture here is that the Conservatives appear to have no answer to Miliband's forensic opportunism and statist populism. There are some clever Labour researchers who are taking a forensic approach in identifying aspects of Govt policy on which either Labour can find common cause with the LDs or on which any response from the Govt will result in ministers either defending the unpopular or not readily explicable or playing to "Nasty Tory" stereotypes.

    And so we have a proposed freeze on energy prices, which any thoughtful person will see is bad policy, but which requires the Govt to appear to side with energy companies at the same moment as they increase prices; we see criticism of the increase in "unqualified" teachers, which is designed to force the Govt to defend "unqualified" teachers, which is counterintuitive to the casual listener; and we see a manufactured cost of living "crisis" (I am not doubting that some people are finding it very tough, but it is no crisis) which the Cons seem to have accepted because the alternative - arguing that things aren't that bad - would look heartless.

    For a long time Cameron has been like a boxer who knows he has the measure of his opponant and has been content to watch the weakling flail around the ring, even at the expense of being caught by the odd stinging jab. But he's been sitting back too long and he's no longer counter-punching with conviction. He needs a change of pace, to get back on the front foot and come out punching. And various other sporting metaphors.

    I have sensed for a while that the Tories are waiting for the economic recovery to be well established in the minds of the public before moving into campaign mode. That's an understandable strategy. But while they are waiting Labour are redefining the terms of the next debate. Having badly mismanaged public finances when in power and been comprehensively proven wrong on the economy since the last election, Labour should be easy to pick apart. But they are being ably and cunningly led and the Tories do not seem alert to the danger.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    tim said:

    YouGov poll.

    Tory voters oppose unqualified teachers by 65% to 28%
    Want national curriculum taught by 58% to 33%
    Only approve of the notion of Free Schools by 38% to 37%

    The PB Tories are so out of touch even with Tory voters it's beyond MOE.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/10/24/support-free-schools-drops/

    Support has drained away

    "Just 27% now support the creation of Free Schools, down from 36% in September. Opposition is up from 40% to 47%."


    Probably due to the coverage of the Derby madrassar as much as anything else. Despite being a lefty, I think free schools are a good idea.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    currystar said:

    I realise that we are still in awe of the game changing performance of miliband yesterday and the fact that he has now totally changed as a parliamentary performer. However I am amazed at the lack of discussion of Labours biggest backer Unite and its performance as Grangemnouth. Playing silly political games Unite has led to the plant being closed, all those people losing their jobs and the impact it will have on the Scottish economy. Within a couple of days they have had to have a 100% humbling u-turn and the deal which they rejected out of hand on Monday they are pleading with the company to implement it. Tim must have had 100+ posts in the last day telling us all how crap Cameron is, yet nothing regarding Unite's shameful performance in this matter. If anyone wants to imagine what a Miliband led Labour Government in 2015 will be like, just needs to look at what has happened with Unite at Grangemouth. Everything will be about silly political games, not about whats good for the UK.

    While some voters will blame the union trots, others will finger the capitalist robber barons for closing the plant. Which will shift more votes? That's the question.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    MaxPB said:

    Dave's fault for not being positive about the prospect of Major's windfall tax. If he had come out at PMQs and said it was a good idea etc... and that the money raised could be used to lower the cost of living for people by freezing fuel duty as promised by the chancellor then the whole energy price debate would be over.

    However, Dave isn't a particularly good politician or tactician and it seems like number 10 is full of the same lame duck ideas. That they have been outmanoeuvred by John Major is disappointing. Lynton Crosby needs to earn his crust, forget about immigration, concentrate on the issues that affect people's pockets.

    Nonsense. You can't have a windfall tax unless there's a windfall to tax, a minor point which the entire commentariat appears to have missed.
    Well there's the 600 million quid they cheated out of the consumer, that's a start. Admittedly that's more ill-gotten gains rather than a windfall as such. Perhaps we could rebrand Sir John's tax as a Cheat Charge?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/9490712/Energy-companies-overcharge-customers-by-600m.html
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    That is seriously funny,though ofcourse not a funny subject-Well done Marf
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Tom Newton Dunn tweets: "So @Ed_Miliband would prefer consumers to take the hit on green taxes instead of taxpayers, which would far more progressive. Go figure."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Great cartoon Marf!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Bobajob said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dave's fault for not being positive about the prospect of Major's windfall tax. If he had come out at PMQs and said it was a good idea etc... and that the money raised could be used to lower the cost of living for people by freezing fuel duty as promised by the chancellor then the whole energy price debate would be over.

    However, Dave isn't a particularly good politician or tactician and it seems like number 10 is full of the same lame duck ideas. That they have been outmanoeuvred by John Major is disappointing. Lynton Crosby needs to earn his crust, forget about immigration, concentrate on the issues that affect people's pockets.

    Nonsense. You can't have a windfall tax unless there's a windfall to tax, a minor point which the entire commentariat appears to have missed.
    Well there's the 600 million quid they cheated out of the consumer, that's a start. Admittedly that's more ill-gotten gains rather than a windfall as such. Perhaps we could rebrand Sir John's tax as a Cheat Charge?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/9490712/Energy-companies-overcharge-customers-by-600m.html
    Such a pity the government at the time didn't do anything about it:

    "In 2009, Ofgem dropped the investigation into Scottish Power and SSE, the owner of Southern Electric, after concluding that the chances of a successful prosecution were “low”. The companies strongly deny breaking any rules."
  • Bobajob said:

    Well there's the 600 million quid they cheated out of the consumer, that's a start. Admittedly that's more ill-gotten gains rather than a windfall as such.

    I know you're very fond of that article from August 2012, but what was the outcome of the regulator's investigation?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    B@gger! So Vince is safe then - just like Balls & Burnham!

  • taffys said:

    I thought we might be having a thread on the sinking of the Tory flagship

    I can only imagine the type of person who would allow their child to be operated on by an unqualified surgeon.

    And yet here, in Britain today, we have parents queuing up for their children to be educated by a teacher who may be flagrantly without a PGCE.

    Monsters.

    Quite. The comparison between "unqualified" teachers and "unqualified" surgeons is nonsense. There are a great many people who are sufficiently expert or who have sufficient experience in a particular field, and who have sufficient communication skills, that they could teach children. The point is that they may be "unqualified" in the sense that they do not have a particular formal qualification, but they are more than qualified to instruct human beings in their area of competence. It would be near impossible for anybody to replicate the skills of a surgeon through non-surgical work. With due respect to butchers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,098
    The fact that these are undoubtedly tricky times (and by that I mean the past few days) for the Cons is testament to the fact that where it matters...the economy...the Cons have won all hands down. Despite Dave's manifest ineptness.

    Of course education, energy, payday lenders, etc are important strands of peoples' wellbeing and livelihood but on the big 'un, on the economy, and despite knobhead Hutton's protestations, the Cons have won and everyone knows it.

    And so all the details about individual policies will be over-ridden, in the ballot box, by the overwhelmingly persuasive question: are we going to let those Labour numpties in to ruin the economy again? To which the answer will be: No.

    Expect this theme to emerge shortly from Lynton.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    tim said:

    @Carlotta

    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn
    BREAKING: Scottish Power put up gas prices by 8.5%, electricity bills by 9% - 4th of Big 6 to hike.

    Does the fop have to do a press conference today, I know it's been two and a half years since his last monthly one but he can;t avoid them in Brussels can he?

    But isn`t the answer obvious?

    It is to switch though Cameron is rather running out of options quickly!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    I see Spanish Power has put their rates up...
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    Laura Kuenssberg ‏@ITVLauraK 4m
    Scottish Power source confirms avge prices up 8.6 pc, gas up 8.5, elec up 9.0 percent - 113 pounds extra on avge bill

    Dave is going to the only place he does press conferences anymore, Brussels, this afternoon.
    Hopefully he'll do his hilarious urging voters to switch riff again, I love that one.

    The gap between the highest and lowest prices for a sample annual use of household energy, as reported by Sky News, was £200 per annum.

    Even today, a switch to the lowest cost provider would yield more savings than the complete removal of green taxes or any marxist intervention in the market, whether through price controls or windfall tax.

    But you miss the purpose of Sir John's intervention. It was not intended to be a recommended strategy but a last resort threat to the energy supply industry on 'co-ordinated' price rises. If all suppliers raise their prices by roughly the same amount, then the prima facie case for there being an uncompetitive industry is strengthened. This both increases the justification for a windfall tax and, more importantly, for a Competition Commission review of industry pricing.

    Remember that Sir John only suggested a windfall tax as a means of recovering additional amounts the government may have to pay out this winter in fuel allowances to protect the vulnerable. This linkage is important and should be held in mind as the energy price saga progresses towards its 4th December denouement.

  • tim said:

    "JPMorgan told the Government earlier this year that it believed Royal Mail could be worth up to £10bn, including its debts, ahead of the postal operator's privatisation.

    Sky News has learnt that corporate financiers from the Wall Street banking giant presented a spectrum for Royal Mail's value ranging from £7.75bn to £9.95bn - the top end of which was more than two-and-a-half times the price at which ministers ultimately sold shares in the company in the most important state asset sale for decades.

    The Government sold shares in Royal Mail for 330p each earlier this month, valuing the company's equity at £3.3bn."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1159110/royal-mail-undervalued-by-up-to-6bn

    A colossal rip off of the taxpayer.

    You have a touching faith in merchant banks . Not long ago I heard them value all sorts of mortgage backed security thingies as AAA and look what happened
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The electricity price freeze will cut company profits; thereby corporation tax paid. It is not a free hit in terms of govt expense, apart from its imact on investment.

    If we are going to impose retrospective taxes on windfalls; i would be keen to see one on turnover (harder to offshore) on internet companies. As well as gaining income for the govt it counters the advantage that these companies have in avoiding UK taxes.

    MaxPB said:

    Dave's fault for not being positive about the prospect of Major's windfall tax. If he had come out at PMQs and said it was a good idea etc... and that the money raised could be used to lower the cost of living for people by freezing fuel duty as promised by the chancellor then the whole energy price debate would be over.

    However, Dave isn't a particularly good politician or tactician and it seems like number 10 is full of the same lame duck ideas. That they have been outmanoeuvred by John Major is disappointing. Lynton Crosby needs to earn his crust, forget about immigration, concentrate on the issues that affect people's pockets.

    Nonsense. You can't have a windfall tax unless there's a windfall to tax, a minor point which the entire commentariat appears to have missed.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    So the unions are angry because the free shares their members were given may have been worth more than previously thought? Curious.

    What's more worrying, though, is the pig-ignorance of the original Sky story (see tim's helpful excerpt upthread):

    http://news.sky.com/story/1159110/royal-mail-undervalued-by-up-to-6bn

    21 banks pitched for the assignment. Most of the content of those pitches will have been stuff about how wonderful they are, but they'll have given a very rough initial valuation, based on limited information in the public domain. Those valuations will have varied a lot - some above, some below the final £4.1bn enterprise value at launch. So what? Picking on the highest out of 21 very early indicative valuations is barmy.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tim said:

    "JPMorgan told the Government earlier this year that it believed Royal Mail could be worth up to £10bn, including its debts, ahead of the postal operator's privatisation.

    Sky News has learnt that corporate financiers from the Wall Street banking giant presented a spectrum for Royal Mail's value ranging from £7.75bn to £9.95bn - the top end of which was more than two-and-a-half times the price at which ministers ultimately sold shares in the company in the most important state asset sale for decades.

    The Government sold shares in Royal Mail for 330p each earlier this month, valuing the company's equity at £3.3bn."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1159110/royal-mail-undervalued-by-up-to-6bn

    A colossal rip off of the taxpayer.

    You have a touching faith in merchant banks . Not long ago I heard them value all sorts of mortgage backed security thingies as AAA and look what happened
    Ignoring the fact that JP had no angle (in that all the selected banks had been working with Royal Mail for 18 months prior to the beauty parade).

    So they tried the old approach of "promise them the earth... manage their expectations down once we have the job". Think of it like the reverse of the builder sucking his teeth, shaking his head and saying 'Well, we could do it mate, ... but it'll cost you' when you suggest the smallest change to an agreed contract.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301

    Nonsense. You can't have a windfall tax unless there's a windfall to tax, a minor point which the entire commentariat appears to have missed.

    I think £3.2bn over six companies in UK profits is close to a taxable windfall, especially since they aren't investing it (except EDF) anyway. Exempt companies which have invested x% of their balance sheet in new power generation and call it job done.

    Having branded Ed's idea Marxist the Tories could not possibly approve of Major's idea, which is redistributive and genuinely left-wing.

    I don't think that would be a big deal. The "petrol is xxp cheaper now than under Labour's plans" is still a very good one, and increasing xx by another couple of pence outweighs any possible u-turn on a windfall tax, but since it hasn't been ruled out I don't think it would be a big deal. In fact since Ed has foolishly ruled it out the government could snatch victory from the jaws of defeat if they play it right, though I think the chances are slim.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    21 banks pitched for the assignment. Most of the content of those pitches will have been stuff about how wonderful they are, but they'll have given a very rough initial valuation, based on limited information in the public domain. Those valuations will have varied a lot - some above, some below the final £4.1bn enterprise value at launch. So what?.
    So what indeed. - But according to CWU it’s a ‘conspiracy’ and unions are never wrong – cough..!
  • MaxPB said:

    I think £3.2bn over six companies in UK profits is close to a taxable windfall

    Why? How much profit do you think is reasonable given their turnover, capital committed, and level of risk?

    Oh, and would you advocate that the taxpayer should subsidise them next year if profits fall to, say, £1bn? If not, why not? You're presumably not suggesting that investors should invest on the basis that they take all the risk of things going wrong, but don't get the benefit if things go well?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Marf

    So much more pleasurable to see Storm models rather than politicians.

    Is the girl on the right a 'Gypsy' blonde?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    "JPMorgan told the Government earlier this year that it believed Royal Mail could be worth up to £10bn, including its debts, ahead of the postal operator's privatisation.

    Sky News has learnt that corporate financiers from the Wall Street banking giant presented a spectrum for Royal Mail's value ranging from £7.75bn to £9.95bn - the top end of which was more than two-and-a-half times the price at which ministers ultimately sold shares in the company in the most important state asset sale for decades.

    The Government sold shares in Royal Mail for 330p each earlier this month, valuing the company's equity at £3.3bn."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1159110/royal-mail-undervalued-by-up-to-6bn

    A colossal rip off of the taxpayer.

    You have a touching faith in merchant banks . Not long ago I heard them value all sorts of mortgage backed security thingies as AAA and look what happened
    Ignoring the fact that JP had no angle (in that all the selected banks had been working with Royal Mail for 18 months prior to the beauty parade).

    So they tried the old approach of "promise them the earth... manage their expectations down once we have the job". Think of it like the reverse of the builder sucking his teeth, shaking his head and saying 'Well, we could do it mate, ... but it'll cost you' when you suggest the smallest change to an agreed contract.
    The Rupert's and Justins cost the taxpayer a fortune
    Are you really that thick?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    People are queing up to be operated on by unqualified surgeons. Surgical skills are taught on the job and around 30% of surgery in the NHS is done by these trainees. In the private sector, particularly in the cosmetic area, there are considerable numbers of unqualified surgeons. Let the buyer beware!

    As far as Specialist training goes, this should be preceeded by simulator training and be well supervised in order to get good results.

    Unqualified teachers can also be trained on the job, and the issue with these is also the quality of supervision. It is noteworthy that the supervision and oversight of the Derby free school identified the problems and remedial measures are being applied. The system works.

    The parents of the revised free school may not be happy when the Labour party tries to close it down!

    taffys said:

    I thought we might be having a thread on the sinking of the Tory flagship

    I can only imagine the type of person who would allow their child to be operated on by an unqualified surgeon.

    And yet here, in Britain today, we have parents queuing up for their children to be educated by a teacher who may be flagrantly without a PGCE.

    Monsters.

    Quite. The comparison between "unqualified" teachers and "unqualified" surgeons is nonsense. There are a great many people who are sufficiently expert or who have sufficient experience in a particular field, and who have sufficient communication skills, that they could teach children. The point is that they may be "unqualified" in the sense that they do not have a particular formal qualification, but they are more than qualified to instruct human beings in their area of competence. It would be near impossible for anybody to replicate the skills of a surgeon through non-surgical work. With due respect to butchers.
  • Tbh I think gas ,water and electricity supply cannot really work in the private sector given you cannot differentiate the product, substitute the product (beyond jumpers or candles) or indeed use duplicate supply networks. The ideal scenario would be to nationalise them but keep the unions out (who can exploit a monopoly position as well as any private company -see bob crow and his tube strikes)
  • Nice one Marf – sometimes you do ‘alluring’ a little too well for comfort.


    It amazes me Loaded hasn't snapped her up.

    Seriously.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301

    MaxPB said:

    I think £3.2bn over six companies in UK profits is close to a taxable windfall

    Why? How much profit do you think is reasonable given their turnover, capital committed, and level of risk?

    Oh, and would you advocate that the taxpayer should subsidise them next year if profits fall to, say, £1bn? If not, why not? You're presumably not suggesting that investors should invest on the basis that they take all the risk of things going wrong, but don't get the benefit if things go well?
    Richard, the problem is that it's all been one way traffic for a while with the government and consumers taking losses and pain while investors have got away with it, especially in the financial sector. Honestly, the balance is tipped too far in favour of private investors in the UK, at least for multinationals who seem to have bulletproof liability shields and land the taxpayer with their losses.

    As you know, I'm not an anti-business person, but when there is a clear case of companies taking the taxpayer and consumers for a ride (as in the case of energy, and as someone mentioned previously, internet companies) measures should be introduced to combat it. The profit motive exists in energy to spur investment, but in the last few years, investment has decreased as profits have risen, all the while prices have shot up.

    Now I'm not in favour of a price freeze as I have said enough times, but it is a policy that strikes at the very heart of the anger people have with energy companies, and if Dave and George think like you then I'm afraid they are on a hiding to nothing, at least on this subject. A windfall tax to fund a fuel duty freeze would be enough to placate consumers and nullify the argument. Energy companies who spend x% of their balance sheet on investment in new energy generation can be exempted. Since so little is spent, I very much doubt there would be many exemptions from the 6 majors.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    Roger said:

    I was invited to a model agency to see their new girls and they asked me to sit in on a catwalk lesson. This battle axe of a teacher in a leotard kept picking on a rather clumsy girl. Eventually the girl just burst into tears and the battle axe turned to her and said "my God! You can't even cry properly!"

    What lovely people you associate with. I bet you fitted right in.

    Did you suggest that the girl become a hairdresser?
    That girl was Chloe Smith, she went on to become George Osbornes human shield, got humiliated over and over agin, then resigned.
    A tragic tale.

    She got married, may now be expecting and has a by-election victory (with 2010 confirmation) in a marginal to secure.

    Fact, not fiction.

  • AveryLP said:

    Marf

    So much more pleasurable to see Storm models rather than politicians.

    Is the girl on the right a 'Gypsy' blonde?

    You think she my be a...ahem....'relative', Avery?

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Nice one Marf – sometimes you do ‘alluring’ a little too well for comfort.


    It amazes me Loaded hasn't snapped her up.
    Oh no Mr Punter - Marf, is more top drawer - than top shelf..!

    http://www.jantoo.com/cartoons/lowres/034/03400108_low.jpg
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    @BBCLouise: Louise Ellman MP, Chair of Transport Committee says expansion at Heathrow only viable option for increasing aviation capacity

    That's a surprise, another of Green Daves great decisions


    Louise Joyce Ellman (born 14 November 1945) is a British Labour Co-operative politician who has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Liverpool Riverside since 1997. In parliament she is Chair of the Transport Select Committee and a member of the Liaison Committee.

    That's a surprise. Another Labour Party chair of a Commons Select Committee issues tweet in support of Labour Party policy.
  • tim said:

    That's a surprise, another of Green Daves great decisions

    Certainly it's a decision which we can be absolutely certain that decisive Ed Miliband got right, since he has variously supported it, opposed it, and been unsure about it:

    17 January 2009: "Miliband told how he believed the Government had taken the right position on Thursday over a third runway [i.e. approving it]"

    31 Oct 2011: "Plans for Heathrow’s third runway were scrapped by the Coalition within days of taking office and Ms Eagle said that Labour would not resurrect the proposals if it won the next election. "

    23 September 2013: "Labour is not ruling out supporting a bigger Heathrow but it is likely to demand convincing evidence that extra noise and pollution can be sufficiently mitigated."

    http://www.nextleft.org/2009/01/ed-miliband-defends-government-over.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8860268/Labour-drops-backing-for-Heathrow-third-runway.html

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-leader-ed-miliband-warns-airports-chief-over-extra-heathrow-runways-8834677.html
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Great day for Unite and the party formerly known as Labour.

    Ed Miliband on #Grangemouth: "I've spoken to Unite and I think they understand the gravity of this situation"

    Took him long enough to work up that Unite went forth and multiplied job loses big enough to haemorrhage votes in Scotland.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Labour policy is no third runway but hopefully clearer heads will prevail and Miliband will give in on this one!
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    MaxPB said:

    As you know, I'm not an anti-business person, but when there is a clear case of companies taking the taxpayer and consumers for a ride (as in the case of energy, and as someone mentioned previously, internet companies) measures should be introduced to combat it.

    I agree, except that no-one has ever explained what this 'clear case' is. As far as I can see on a very quick look at the figures at least for the UK listed companies (SSE and Centrica), there's no case whatsoever. Just saying 'they made profits of £3.2bn' is not an argument, nor is the stuff peddled by Labour - Chris Leslie, in all seriousness, seemed to think it was a disgrace that the companies paid increasing dividends, or at least that was what he said on Any Questions a couple of weeks ago (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was being dishonest not stupid).

    I'm very happy to admit I'm wrong if someone can actually indicate what exactly these excess profits are and how they reach that conclusion, but in the absence of any figures justifying the statement, it just looks like mindless scapegoating.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Portuguese police have reopened their inquiry into the disappearance of British girl Madeleine McCann, the public prosecutor's office has said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24655826

    Now, what was someone saying about pointless Cameron stunts?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    dr_spyn said:

    Great day for Unite and the party formerly known as Labour.

    Ed Miliband on #Grangemouth: "I've spoken to Unite and I think they understand the gravity of this situation"

    Took him long enough to work up that Unite went forth and multiplied job loses big enough to haemorrhage votes in Scotland.

    That's what I call leadership! Not raise it with the PM, sit mutely on the benches while some of his MPs slag off one party in the negotiations, and finally break silence after the UNITE have caved.....bet he cuts an impressive figure in Scotland!

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    @BBCLouise: Louise Ellman MP, Chair of Transport Committee says expansion at Heathrow only viable option for increasing aviation capacity

    That's a surprise, another of Green Daves great decisions


    Louise Joyce Ellman (born 14 November 1945) is a British Labour Co-operative politician who has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Liverpool Riverside since 1997. In parliament she is Chair of the Transport Select Committee and a member of the Liaison Committee.

    That's a surprise. Another Labour Party chair of a Commons Select Committee issues tweet in support of Labour Party policy.
    We all know Dave will u turn on this if by some chance he gets re elected.
    And if he does back Heathrow expansion, the odds are he will have a nice, fat report to fall back on from Sir David Howard's Airports Commission. Because it will not be so much a change of mind, as evidence-based infrastructure.

    I'm concerned about another Heathrow runway, mainly because I'm not sure that it's future-proof enough, that the alleged improvements to the existing infrastructure will not be met, and that within another 10-20 years we will need further expansion on an increasingly constrained site.

    But I'm willing to see what the Airports Commission throws up. It's a shame Labour did not start that process earlier ...
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    Marf

    So much more pleasurable to see Storm models rather than politicians.

    Is the girl on the right a 'Gypsy' blonde?

    You think she my be a...ahem....'relative', Avery?

    Well I have been a member of the I Zingari, PTP.

    Perhaps we need a DNA test.

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Perhaps Richard and Josias would prefer this research from
    June of this year.

    http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/news/2013/06/20/70-of-consumers-overcharged-on-a-household-bills/
  • tim said:

    That's a surprise, another of Green Daves great decisions

    Certainly it's a decision which we can be absolutely certain that decisive Ed Miliband got right, since he has variously supported it, opposed it, and been unsure about it:

    17 January 2009: "Miliband told how he believed the Government had taken the right position on Thursday over a third runway [i.e. approving it]"

    31 Oct 2011: "Plans for Heathrow’s third runway were scrapped by the Coalition within days of taking office and Ms Eagle said that Labour would not resurrect the proposals if it won the next election. "

    23 September 2013: "Labour is not ruling out supporting a bigger Heathrow but it is likely to demand convincing evidence that extra noise and pollution can be sufficiently mitigated."

    http://www.nextleft.org/2009/01/ed-miliband-defends-government-over.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8860268/Labour-drops-backing-for-Heathrow-third-runway.html

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-leader-ed-miliband-warns-airports-chief-over-extra-heathrow-runways-8834677.html
    On any subject you care to mention EdM changes his position with dizzying and nauseating regularity . Put simply he can't be trusted , even by his apparent nearest and dearest. A wrong'n if I ever saw one.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301

    dr_spyn said:

    Great day for Unite and the party formerly known as Labour.

    Ed Miliband on #Grangemouth: "I've spoken to Unite and I think they understand the gravity of this situation"

    Took him long enough to work up that Unite went forth and multiplied job loses big enough to haemorrhage votes in Scotland.

    That's what I call leadership! Not raise it with the PM, sit mutely on the benches while some of his MPs slag off one party in the negotiations, and finally break silence after the UNITE have caved.....bet he cuts an impressive figure in Scotland!

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband 23 Oct
    UK and Scottish Governments need to do everything they can to protect jobs and an important national asset at Grangemouth.

    Nothing to do with us gov - not our fault, no way Unite screwed things up - OMG Labour will haemorrhage votes across Scotland...Blame SNP, Blame Coalition, Blame Cameron, Blame Clegg...what was that Len - it's a victory for Unite - complete closure of the plant...
  • And if he does back Heathrow expansion, the odds are he will have a nice, fat report to fall back on from Sir David Howard's Airports Commission.

    Sir David Howard? Do you mean Sir Howard Davies?

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,475
    tim said:

    "JPMorgan told the Government earlier this year that it believed Royal Mail could be worth up to £10bn, including its debts, ahead of the postal operator's privatisation.

    Sky News has learnt that corporate financiers from the Wall Street banking giant presented a spectrum for Royal Mail's value ranging from £7.75bn to £9.95bn - the top end of which was more than two-and-a-half times the price at which ministers ultimately sold shares in the company in the most important state asset sale for decades.

    The Government sold shares in Royal Mail for 330p each earlier this month, valuing the company's equity at £3.3bn."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1159110/royal-mail-undervalued-by-up-to-6bn

    A colossal rip off of the taxpayer.

    This would be the JPMorgan which has just been fined by the FCA over the London Whale incident and is going to be fined a humungous amount - somewhere in the region of $13 billion - by the US authorities, right?



  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847

    And if he does back Heathrow expansion, the odds are he will have a nice, fat report to fall back on from Sir David Howard's Airports Commission.

    Sir David Howard? Do you mean Sir Howard Davies?

    Ahem, yes. I misremembered.
  • Nice one Marf – sometimes you do ‘alluring’ a little too well for comfort.


    It amazes me Loaded hasn't snapped her up.
    Oh no Mr Punter - Marf, is more top drawer - than top shelf..!

    http://www.jantoo.com/cartoons/lowres/034/03400108_low.jpg

    Excellent!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @Watcher


    "Roger, one assumes that you were taught by unqualified teachers at Millfield back in the day

    Is that your excuse?"

    I was and yes it is. I could have been a physicist!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    MaxPB said:


    As you know, I'm not an anti-business person, but when there is a clear case of companies taking the taxpayer and consumers for a ride (as in the case of energy, and as someone mentioned previously, internet companies) measures should be introduced to combat it. The profit motive exists in energy to spur investment, but in the last few years, investment has decreased as profits have risen, all the while prices have shot up.

    I'm not sure whether this is right or not as far as energy goes, but even if it's right it's probably not something that should be judged by politicians in the run-up to elections.

    We should have a Windfall Tax Commission or a Monopolies We Didn't Catch Until It Was Too Late Commission or something to decide which industries are taking the piss and how much to tax them for it.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,551
    I thought that the proposal was to only have qualified teachers or teachers working towards qualification. This would permit train on the job schemes such as Teach First.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2013

    MaxPB said:


    As you know, I'm not an anti-business person, but when there is a clear case of companies taking the taxpayer and consumers for a ride (as in the case of energy, and as someone mentioned previously, internet companies) measures should be introduced to combat it. The profit motive exists in energy to spur investment, but in the last few years, investment has decreased as profits have risen, all the while prices have shot up.

    I'm not sure whether this is right or not as far as energy goes, but even if it's right it's probably not something that should be judged by politicians in the run-up to elections.

    We should have a Windfall Tax Commission or a Monopolies We Didn't Catch Until It Was Too Late Commission or something to decide which industries are taking the piss and how much to tax them for it.
    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve, to be agreed by a "people's revenue committee".

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301

    MaxPB said:

    As you know, I'm not an anti-business person, but when there is a clear case of companies taking the taxpayer and consumers for a ride (as in the case of energy, and as someone mentioned previously, internet companies) measures should be introduced to combat it.

    I agree, except that no-one has ever explained what this 'clear case' is. As far as I can see on a very quick look at the figures at least for the UK listed companies (SSE and Centrica), there's no case whatsoever. Just saying 'they made profits of £3.2bn' is not an argument, nor is the stuff peddled by Labour - Chris Leslie, in all seriousness, seemed to think it was a disgrace that the companies paid increasing dividends, or at least that was what he said on Any Questions a couple of weeks ago (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was being dishonest not stupid).

    I'm very happy to admit I'm wrong if someone can actually indicate what exactly these excess profits are and how they reach that conclusion, but in the absence of any figures justifying the statement, it just looks like mindless scapegoating.
    Investment down, profits up, 6 majors all putting prices up at the same time, and the government don't have an answer to it other than to take out the green energy crap that they put in and wanted made tougher when they weren't in power.

    Dave needs an answer, to not have one, the position he is in at the moment, will undo all of the solid work that the government have achieved on the economy. A windfall tax to fund a fuel duty freeze is the logical political and economic answer as it stops inflation rising and helps people with the cost of living. The best part is that announcing it now, after the energy companies have locked in price rises means that there is little to no recourse for them.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Good afternoon, comrades.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    I just went into a delicatessen and bought a tin of 'Italian tomatoes'. Anyone who has been to an Italian food market will know that their tomatoes look like a cow's rolled around on them before excreting all over them. What is it that makes an 'Italian tomato' alluring here when we know that even fresh they look like shit?

    Steve Hilton would know the answer but would Lynton Crosby?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    'Investment down, profits up, 6 majors all putting prices up at the same time,'

    And only a few weeks after Ed threatened them with a price cap.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301

    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve, to be agreed by a "people's revenue committee".

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.

    Name another area in which there is an oligopoly that controls the price of an essential good and then you might have a point. People need electricity and gas to live and since Ofgem have done such a piss-poor job of it in recent times, the government has to step in and protect the interests of its charges.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    MaxPB said:

    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve, to be agreed by a "people's revenue committee".

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.

    Name another area in which there is an oligopoly that controls the price of an essential good and then you might have a point. People need electricity and gas to live and since Ofgem have done such a piss-poor job of it in recent times, the government has to step in and protect the interests of its charges.
    Deal with the Labour-created oligopoly first? Get the Competition Commission to investigate?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,829
    Charles said:

    tim said:

    "JPMorgan told the Government earlier this year that it believed Royal Mail could be worth up to £10bn, including its debts, ahead of the postal operator's privatisation.

    Sky News has learnt that corporate financiers from the Wall Street banking giant presented a spectrum for Royal Mail's value ranging from £7.75bn to £9.95bn - the top end of which was more than two-and-a-half times the price at which ministers ultimately sold shares in the company in the most important state asset sale for decades.

    The Government sold shares in Royal Mail for 330p each earlier this month, valuing the company's equity at £3.3bn."

    http://news.sky.com/story/1159110/royal-mail-undervalued-by-up-to-6bn

    A colossal rip off of the taxpayer.

    You have a touching faith in merchant banks . Not long ago I heard them value all sorts of mortgage backed security thingies as AAA and look what happened
    Ignoring the fact that JP had no angle (in that all the selected banks had been working with Royal Mail for 18 months prior to the beauty parade).

    So they tried the old approach of "promise them the earth... manage their expectations down once we have the job". Think of it like the reverse of the builder sucking his teeth, shaking his head and saying 'Well, we could do it mate, ... but it'll cost you' when you suggest the smallest change to an agreed contract.
    It's also worth asking if JP Morgan valued the equity at that price, or whether it was the enterprise value.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301
    Next said:

    MaxPB said:

    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve, to be agreed by a "people's revenue committee".

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.

    Name another area in which there is an oligopoly that controls the price of an essential good and then you might have a point. People need electricity and gas to live and since Ofgem have done such a piss-poor job of it in recent times, the government has to step in and protect the interests of its charges.
    Deal with the Labour-created oligopoly first? Get the Competition Commission to investigate?
    All of that takes too much time. In the run up to an election where the cost of living may be one of the defining issues an easy tax/spend to help people with the cost of living is the better solution. Then set up a commission that looks into why there are so few companies and how to make the market more competitive. Right now Dave and George need to deal with the problems of today and worry about tomorrow's problems after 2015 if they manage to win. With hits like this coming on a daily basis, the chances of winning are lessening.

    The best thing about it is that Dave is suddenly a man of the people, taxing rich energy companies to help Mondeo man with filling up the tank. It blunts all of the accusations of being remote from people's needs as well since fuel duty relief and keeping the cost of petrol down is one of the biggest concerns for people.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Balls apologists are getting their revision in early:

    "Why the return of growth doesn't prove that Balls was wrong
    The shadow chancellor never said that there would be no recovery, only that it would be painfully slow. And he was right."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/10/why-return-growth-doesnt-prove-balls-was-wrong

    Except......

    "Ed Balls: 'Lost decade' for economy looms if George Osborne fails to act
    Shadow chancellor warns of Japanese-style stagnation without plan for jobs and growth"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/apr/28/ed-balls-george-osborne-economy
  • Sportingindex do a league 2 index which awards points 60/40/30/20/10/5 for the top 6 places . If you look at the 'field' , out of the 6 clubs listed 4 can still very realistically finish in the top 6 (its a tight division) . All 4 are playing at home on saturday (newport, wimbledon,dagenham and morecambe) . I had to buy at 11 !!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    edited October 2013
    I can't make up my mind whether to sell my Iberdrola shares for making so many peoples lives a misery or whether to buy some more because they pay me a dividend of 5% and with the Scottish Power raise of 8% it'll just keep rolling in?
  • MaxPB

    Given the size of our debt and our deficit I think Osborne would like more inflation not less. Hell they're printing enough money these days and that has to wash out in inflation.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    MaxPB said:

    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve, to be agreed by a "people's revenue committee".

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.

    Name another area in which there is an oligopoly that controls the price of an essential good and then you might have a point. People need electricity and gas to live and since Ofgem have done such a piss-poor job of it in recent times, the government has to step in and protect the interests of its charges.
    Operating systems.
  • I know how PB loves a Scottish tram...

    http://tinyurl.com/qgudjdf

    Labour never learn.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Grangemouth - not out of the woods yet:

    As bosses and union leaders resume talks over Grangemouth petrochemical plant, an old sore is in danger of reopening on Friday when the owner is due to publish its report on the initial cause of the dispute: the behaviour of Stephen Deans.

    Ineos, the plant’s owner, alleges that Mr Deans – a Grangemouth employee for 20 years, chairman of Unite in Scotland and head of the Falkirk constituency Labour party – made “inappropriate use of company resources” to conduct union business.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5406b854-3ca9-11e3-a8c4-00144feab7de.html#ixzz2ieXZk7H4
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Russell Brand interviewed by Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight last night:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    MaxPB said:

    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve, to be agreed by a "people's revenue committee".

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.

    Name another area in which there is an oligopoly that controls the price of an essential good and then you might have a point. People need electricity and gas to live and since Ofgem have done such a piss-poor job of it in recent times, the government has to step in and protect the interests of its charges.
    Operating systems.
    Trains maybe?

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    MaxPB said:

    Investment down, profits up, 6 majors all putting prices up at the same time

    I'm sorry, that just won't do.

    Take Centrica [British Gas], figures for each of the past four years (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012) - this of course includes the non-UK business:

    Turnover: £21.9bn, £22.4bn, £22.8bn, £23.9bn
    Profit before tax: £1.0bn, £2.8bn, £1.3bn, £2.4bn
    Tax (mainly UK corporation tax): £0.3bn, £0.9bn, £0.8bn, £1.2bn
    Profit after tax: £0.8bn, £1.9bn, £0.4bn, £1.2bn

    Capital expenditure (excluding acquisitions): £0.6bn, £0.5bn, £0.8bn, £1.8bn

    I don't recall Ed Miliband, or anyone else, saying shareholders should be compensated for the reduction in profits in 2011, nor is the increase in 2012 anything out of the ordinary. There's no windfall, and the profits are not excessive at all compared with sales or capital employed. What's more, they've been trying to invest more in the UK - in shale gas, for example. They also wanted to invest in gas storage but couldn't justify the investment partly because of regulatory uncertainty.

    It's a good, solid, unexciting utility business, making regular but not excessive profits in a highly regulated market and operating internationally, paying a dividend which is well in line with international peers, employing a lot of people in the UK, and paying a lot of tax in the UK.

    http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/financials/financials.asp?ticker=CNA:LN&dataset=cashFlow&period=A&currency=native

    As for the price increases, yes of course they rise pretty much together - they're all subject to much the same wholesale prices and taxes, and in a competitive market prices tend to converge for commodity products.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Coalition & SNP governments focus on what's important - saving jobs at Grangemouth:

    "John Swinney and Alistair Carmichael are giving a clear show of solidarity here, showing that neither the governments in London or Edinburgh have lost hope that the plant can be rescued.

    In a brief Q&A session, Swinney says that it's clear that the petrochemical site can only be saved if unions and management can reach a deal. He also says there has been "clear acceptance" of the Ineos plan by Unite.

    Asked what they said to Ineos today, Carmichael says that these are not new discussions -- politicians have been talking about the site's future for some time. "

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/24/grangemouth-rescue-talks-chinese-manufacturing-picks-up-live

    How different, very different from Lamont, Watson.....
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    MaxPB said:


    As you know, I'm not an anti-business person, but when there is a clear case of companies taking the taxpayer and consumers for a ride (as in the case of energy, and as someone mentioned previously, internet companies) measures should be introduced to combat it. The profit motive exists in energy to spur investment, but in the last few years, investment has decreased as profits have risen, all the while prices have shot up.

    I'm not sure whether this is right or not as far as energy goes, but even if it's right it's probably not something that should be judged by politicians in the run-up to elections.

    We should have a Windfall Tax Commission or a Monopolies We Didn't Catch Until It Was Too Late Commission or something to decide which industries are taking the piss and how much to tax them for it.
    Why doesn't HMG simply tax them 100%, and then pay shareholders the return that it thinks they deserve?

    This could be rolled out to cover all businesses and individual taxpayers too.
    The place where the government intervenes right now is in making sure the market is competitive. The hitch is that they have to make this decision in advance, without having all the facts. If you moved the anti-trust action to after the event, and made it properly punitive, you wouldn't need as much government activism in the first place: Firstly because you wouldn't break up industries that ultimately turned out not to need breaking up, and secondly because the companies themselves would have an incentive to organize themselves in a way that kept the market competitive, unlike the current situation where they're incentivized to make it as oligopolistic as they can get away with.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,301

    Operating systems.

    Agreed, we do need more competitors, but honestly, it's a tough one. Other operating systems are usually quite terrible or require one to be a geek. OSX is Mac only and ChromeOS is still in its formative years. The latter could lead to a real shake up though. The latest Chromebooks are impressive. Now it really needs support from software developers, which is going to be an uphill task. SteamOS also looks interesting to me, taking away the gaming bullet point from MS could be one of the turning points.
    Patrick said:

    MaxPB

    Given the size of our debt and our deficit I think Osborne would like more inflation not less. Hell they're printing enough money these days and that has to wash out in inflation.

    In the run up to an election, lower inflation would be preferred as the case for interest rate rises softens.
  • Betfair - In-play - Dunfermline by-election

    Lab 1.16
    SNP 3
    LD 50
    Any other 50
  • 'Name an area in which there is an oligopoly that controls the price of an essential good.'

    good question for an intellectual version of Family Fortunes. I can imagine Less Dennis asking it to a teams of Milibands versus Hitchins for example
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    Bobajob said:

    Perhaps Richard and Josias would prefer this research from
    June of this year.

    http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/news/2013/06/20/70-of-consumers-overcharged-on-a-household-bills/

    That's interesting, thanks, and rather worrying on the face of it. But note it is for all household bills, not just energy. It also includes things like council tax, mobile phones, water, etc.

    More information can be found at the link below. Note the questions at the bottom, and ask how accurate the self-reporting on them may be.

    http://www.uswitch.com/media-centre/2013/06/seven-in-ten-consumers-overcharged-on-household-bills-in-the-past-year/
  • Brilliant cartoon, Marf!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    Sportingindex do a league 2 index which awards points 60/40/30/20/10/5 for the top 6 places . If you look at the 'field' , out of the 6 clubs listed 4 can still very realistically finish in the top 6 (its a tight division) . All 4 are playing at home on saturday (newport, wimbledon,dagenham and morecambe) . I had to buy at 11 !!

    Good spot. Portsmouth is individually priced at 8-11...
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Roger

    Crosby would no doubt describe the tomatoes as Italian c--ts and order chips instead
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Brilliant cartoon, Marf!

    Indeed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Betfair - In-play - Dunfermline by-election

    Lab 1.16
    SNP 3
    LD 50
    Any other 50

    BBC 2 Scotland will be covering it from 23.00 - Freesat 970

This discussion has been closed.