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  • Dan is actually on Unite's side here if you read the piece - that's why I'm outraged and calling for his replacement by Ian Holloway henceforth and forthwith, how dare a supposedly fake leftie then support a union!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    "Len McCluskey, general secretary of Unite, has announced that the union have told Ineos that they will embrace the rescue plan, at this morning's emergency talks."

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/24/grangemouth-rescue-talks-chinese-manufacturing-picks-up-live

    Lets hope its not too little, too late.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Charles said:

    Not at all.

    The CofE has made certain projections about the likely deficit to the market. If he thinks the deficit will be lower he can (a) deliver a better than projected results (b) make additional spending commitments so that he delivers on the target or (c) cut taxes so that he delivers the target.

    In my view (a) should be a primary objective, but I have no problem with using some of the available flex to absorb the cost of certain green costs. This effectively delivers a very visible cost of living reduction by eliminating a highly regressive tax and paying for it out of general funds (which are raised on a much more progressive basis).

    If he doesn't believe that the deficit is going to undershoot, then you are right to say that he shouldn't absorb the costs unless he is going to fund it from elsewhere in the budget. There is no "magic money tree"
    Fair enough , I can accept your argument but we should always see the detailed figures showing the balance of the effects .
    Are we not fortunate that the Major government did not get it's wish to introduce the full rate of 15 % VAT on energy . That would have been even more regressive than the current green tax .
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    edited October 2013

    Dan is actually on Unite's side

    I know - hence I await the usual denunciations from the left with baited - but not held - breath!

  • @GIN1138 The point is that all the money collected on green taxes is directly allocated to be spent on measures to do with energy, so saying that they don't raise revenue for the government is more a way of saying that governments won't put them up for the sake of raising revenue, as they've been accused of with supposed 'sin' taxes like on beer or fuel.

    So if you abolished green taxes and stopped doing the things they pay for, then fine it wouldn't cost much, but the government won't do that as a) The Lib Dems won't let it happen b) Dave would look like a complete fool and c) Some of those 'green taxes' go to reducing the bills of the poorest so you'd be picking the pocket of the poor to put money in middle-class wallets. Not a popular tax move even amongst those it would help as G. Brown found out with his 10p tax fiasco.

    What's being suggested is that you abolish the taxes but pay for the things they do out of general taxation, in which case you have to find the money from somewhere either by raising revenue or cutting something else.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,731

    Mr. Divvie, come on. Has any SNP poster here ever criticised Salmond? Even those of us (almost everyone, it seems) considered 'PB Tories' have almost all criticised Cameron.

    I agree there's a difference between not saying something critical and being relentlessly positive, but when every SNP poster has never criticised Salmond that is a pattern.

    Reminds me a bit of Labour. Very good at loyalty/discipline (although, in the SNP's defence, you've never ruined the economy to the tune of about a trillion pounds).

    Morris, You omit the obvious point , there are so many occasions to criticise Cameron it would be impossible not to do it. Salmond is far more craeful and a far better politician so people unless they are anoraks may not see his gaffes. He is far from perfect though.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,284
    edited October 2013

    Good plan by Ed.

    As part of my contribution to the Big Society, I volunteer a few hours a week, helping the families of prisoners deal with the consequences of their loved ones being in prison.

    Payday loan companies behaviour is alarming and worrying, especially their rollover facilities.

    Where a loan of £400 can mean repaying close to 1500quid within a year.
    Pay day loan companies are a disgrace and a moral outrage, no one would dispute that. I think Nick's point about forcing people into the hands of those using less conventional means of debt recovery is a good point too.

    These balances are hard but having a maximum apr of, say, 500% isn't hard. Having maximum charges of 10% of the loan isn't hard. Making it a requirement of rolling over a debt that there is at least an element of interest forgiveness on the original loan isn't hard. I think we should pick off some of the easy targets with better regulation and then see how the market develops.

    I also have to say that hypothecated taxes are a pack of Brownian lies. The poor taking these loans are not an appropriate tax base.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2013

    "Len McCluskey, general secretary of Unite, has announced that the union have told Ineos that they will embrace the rescue plan, at this morning's emergency talks."

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/24/grangemouth-rescue-talks-chinese-manufacturing-picks-up-live

    Lets hope its not too little, too late.

    'Speaking after meeting with Ineos management, McCluskey said that Unite "was not going to allow this plant to close down".

    I'm not sure Unite has much say in the matter. What's Len going to do - climb over the fence and restart the refinery himself?
  • Coalition Break Up.

    Paddy Power have a market on the year the coalition will formally end and this morning in one of their shops they happily took my £40 at 5/1 that it will be 2014.

    Can't see this price lasting. Should be about 5/4, imo, for all the reasons with which regular posters here will be familiar.

    Hat-tip to Peter from Putney.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    malcolmg said:

    Considering the banks are almost as bad and at times charge the same or higher rates , it should be the banks and individual bankers who make obscene bonuses that are forced to pay a tax , not just small fry like Wonga.

    Admittedly I don’t know much about ‘wonga’ or other pay day loan companies for that matter, I thought they were all short term money lenders for non-secured loans with prohibitive interest rates? A form of latter day loan sharks - but without the knee capping.

    Are reputable high street banks really ‘almost as bad’ for similar loans?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    edited October 2013
    McCluskey having his strategic withdrawal to previously prepared positions as infidel tanks reach Baghdad.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/oct/24/grangemouth-rescue-talks-chinese-manufacturing-picks-up-live

    Len McCluskey didn't say exactly what Unite have just agreed to, but it appears the union has now accepted that workers must accept the pay freeze and pension cuts that were rejected by members earlier this week.

    As McCluskey put it:

    I'm optimistic that the olive branch being offered to Ineos will be taken up.

    The Unite chief also denied that his union had been "humiliated" by events at Grangemouth, saying there is "nothing humiliating" about defending workers' jobs and the Scottish economy.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    "Lord McAlpine has settled his libel action with Alan Davies over a tweet relating to false child sex abuse allegations, with the comedian agreeing to pay £15,000 in damages and issuing a warning to users of the social media service."

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/oct/24/lord-mcalpine-libel-alan-davies
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,731


    Admittedly I don’t know much about ‘wonga’ or other pay day loan companies for that matter, I thought they were all short term money lenders for non-secured loans with prohibitive interest rates? A form of latter day loan sharks - but without the knee capping.

    Are reputable high street banks really ‘almost as bad’ for similar loans?
    Well we have seen them implicated in many scams , ppi , etc. Also when you look at the charges they apply if someone goes a penny overdrawn , they must be charging interest in the 2000% range and try to camouflage by calling it admin. Many of them charge in the high 30% range for credit cards and loans so they are far from helpful, given we have supplied them with free cash.
  • @tim - Since when has saying 'wait and see, we're not doing policy on the hoof at a press briefing' become being 'all over the place'?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @Nick @Antifrank

    Yes indeed - the debt/deficit has indeed evaporated as an electoral battleground, probably because the two parties have realised that - rightly or wrongly - voters don't care.

    Antifrank grandly told me a few weeks ago that I was "dead wrong" when I forecast such an outcome. It seems I was, in fact, dead right.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Just over 26 years after the Great Storm of 1987, the Met Office have recently issued a warning for a storm on Monday morning - nearly four days in advance.

    Bearing in mind that pretty much all smartphones are now more powerful than the supercomputer used by the Met Office in 1987, this shouldn't be too surprising. It is unusual to have a warning this far in advance though, and you have to go to Wetterzentrale to have a look at the surface pressure chart forecast.

    Worth keeping an eye on, and making any appropriate preparations. The mild autumn means that lots of trees still have many leaves, and so this will increase the likelihood of damage to trees.
  • DavidL said:


    These balances are hard but having a maximum apr of, say, 500% isn't hard.

    Having a maximum apr of 500% is quite easy when there's a loan of, say, £80, and a £5 admin fee plus a bit of interest. The problem is in this case that apr doesn't tell you anything if you really want to borrow for a week or so.

    However, the basic problem applies, why are these companies needed in the first place? Where is the demand coming from?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    Where's Chuka Umunna these days?

    All we ever hear is Tristram this, Tristram that.

    Here he is having a go at Clegg on Free Schools:

    http://labourlist.org/2013/10/sorry-nick-clegg-these-are-your-policies-your-record-your-failure/

    And telling porkies:

    ".....ensuring the growth of unqualified teachers in our classrooms. To be precise, a 141% growth in Academies and Free Schools since 2010. That amounts to 5286 unqualified teacher in total, with fully one in ten teachers in Free Schools being unqualified."

    See me after class Hunt - remedial maths for you:

    "In 2010, 2,200 teachers at these schools were unqualified. In 2012, 5,300 were the same (a '141%' increase).

    But these schools have greatly increased in number in recent years. In 2010 they employed 22,800 FTE teachers between them. In 2012 they employed all of 121,000 FTE teachers. So as a proportion of all FTE teachers in these schools, the prevalence of unqualified FTE teachers has actually shrunk from 10% in 2010 to 4.4% in 2012."

    http://fullfact.org/factchecks/unqualified_teachers_and_free_schools-29246

    So the 'fully one in ten' was before the 141% increase.

    Is he going for the IDS Statistics Award?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @MrG – “Many of them charge in the high 30% range for credit cards and loans so they are far from helpful, given we have supplied them with free cash.”

    OK, not entirely convinced but I get your drift – And on credit cards we are in complete agreement.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    edited October 2013
    From T'Guardian. "Interviewed on Sky News outside the plant, Len McCluskey reiterated that Unite has made concessions at this morning's talks with Ineos.

    McCluskey said he had told Ineos that:
    "We are prepared to embrace their survival plan and get into discussions about the future of the site. He also repeated that "this plant is too important to be allowed to close".

    Asked whether Unite was agreeing to Ineos's original proposal in full, McCluskey explained that Unite had told Ineos that "we've accepted the route you want to go down", and would now sit down with immediate effect to discuss how to save the site.

    Clearly Ineos's decision yesterday to liquidate the petrochemicals' arm has shaken Unite into changing its position.""

    There are no American Tanks in Baghdad, all is well, victory to Unite...., A few stand, All cheer, stamping of feet, tumultuous applause, rapturous cheers, Applause, All Stand.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,457

    @GIN1138 The point is that all the money collected on green taxes is directly allocated to be spent on measures to do with energy, so saying that they don't raise revenue for the government is more a way of saying that governments won't put them up for the sake of raising revenue, as they've been accused of with supposed 'sin' taxes like on beer or fuel.

    So if you abolished green taxes and stopped doing the things they pay for, then fine it wouldn't cost much, but the government won't do that as a) The Lib Dems won't let it happen b) Dave would look like a complete fool and c) Some of those 'green taxes' go to reducing the bills of the poorest so you'd be picking the pocket of the poor to put money in middle-class wallets. Not a popular tax move even amongst those it would help as G. Brown found out with his 10p tax fiasco.

    What's being suggested is that you abolish the taxes but pay for the things they do out of general taxation, in which case you have to find the money from somewhere either by raising revenue or cutting something else.

    I wouldn't mind seeing a windfall tax on The Big Six to pay for a reduction in green taxes
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Bobajob said:

    @Nick @Antifrank

    Yes indeed - the debt/deficit has indeed evaporated as an electoral battleground, probably because the two parties have realised that - rightly or wrongly - voters don't care.

    Antifrank grandly told me a few weeks ago that I was "dead wrong" when I forecast such an outcome. It seems I was, in fact, dead right.

    Labour supporters are whistling in the wind on this. Ed Miliband's and Ed Balls's failure to confront tough choices is going to be a Tory theme from now to the next election. Both of you are dreaming if you think that this battleground has gone away.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,910

    Coalition Break Up.

    Paddy Power have a market on the year the coalition will formally end and this morning in one of their shops they happily took my £40 at 5/1 that it will be 2014.

    Can't see this price lasting. Should be about 5/4, imo, for all the reasons with which regular posters here will be familiar.

    Hat-tip to Peter from Putney.

    Dec 31st????????
    New year messages from message from Cameron Clegg both start exactly the same; "We've done our best, and are grateful to our former partners but sadly we could not make them see sense on …… (here the differences start!)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,671

    Just over 26 years after the Great Storm of 1987, the Met Office have recently issued a warning for a storm on Monday morning - nearly four days in advance.

    Bearing in mind that pretty much all smartphones are now more powerful than the supercomputer used by the Met Office in 1987, this shouldn't be too surprising. It is unusual to have a warning this far in advance though, and you have to go to Wetterzentrale to have a look at the surface pressure chart forecast.

    Worth keeping an eye on, and making any appropriate preparations. The mild autumn means that lots of trees still have many leaves, and so this will increase the likelihood of damage to trees.

    Ooh Crikey, Hope its not a repeat of 1953 ://
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    those using less conventional means of debt recovery

    Are you aiming for the PB understatement of the day prize?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    @antifrank

    It's no longer the battleground - the Tories are going for tax cuts instead. That may not be a bad strategy, but you can't have it both ways.

    You called this one wrong.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    edited October 2013

    Worth keeping an eye on, and making any appropriate preparations. The mild autumn means that lots of trees still have many leaves, and so this will increase the likelihood of damage to trees.

    Thanks for the warning - gusts to Violent Storm Force 11 overnight Sunday/Monday - so not a lot of point sweeping the drive for leaves today!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,671

    Coalition Break Up.

    Paddy Power have a market on the year the coalition will formally end and this morning in one of their shops they happily took my £40 at 5/1 that it will be 2014.

    Can't see this price lasting. Should be about 5/4, imo, for all the reasons with which regular posters here will be familiar.

    Hat-tip to Peter from Putney.

    Mike K is on at 11-2. Can't see it myself personally.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,588



    If credit unions are so good (I've worked with them in Kenya, but not in the UK), why do people use Wonga?

    I don't know - one reason I've invited Stella is to be able to ask that sort of question. But CUs are neither universally available in Britain (since they are partly dependent on volunteer help) nor vigorously advertised (perhaps not spending a lot of dosh on adverts is part of the model?). If I needed a payday loan I would certainly know how to find Wonga, but would need to Google and hunt around to find a local CU, if there is one in Highbury.

    To be clear: I'm not saying they're wonderful. I genuinely don't know enough about the subject, so am taking steps to find out. I theorise that voters won't mind that sort of approach now and then - eternal certainty is alienating.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,731

    @MrG – “Many of them charge in the high 30% range for credit cards and loans so they are far from helpful, given we have supplied them with free cash.”

    OK, not entirely convinced but I get your drift – And on credit cards we are in complete agreement.

    Simon, Saying as bad is maybe a bit over the top , but they are far from innocent regarding fleecing the public. With regard to payday loans I personally think the initial charges are fair for the short term , issue seems to arise when they roll the loans , that does need looking at to ensure people do not get themselves into trouble.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Bobajob said:

    @antifrank

    It's no longer the battleground - the Tories are going for tax cuts instead. That may not be a bad strategy, but you can't have it both ways.

    You called this one wrong.

    We. Shall. See.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @dr_Spyn – “McCluskey said he had told Ineos that:

    "We are prepared to embrace their survival plan and get into discussions about the future of the site. He also repeated that "this plant is too important to be allowed to close".

    So, a full on capitulation in other words. – well at least the old militant dinosaur has at last woken up to the reality of the situation.
  • tim said:

    Has this been posted?



    "Support for free schools has dropped dramatically in less than a month, according to a Times/YouGov poll.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education/article3902829.ece?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=bufferc1c0d&utm_medium=twitter

    "27% back the schools, down from 36% in mid-September, with 47% opposed. The poll also shows that, on this issue, the public agree with Nick. Sixty six per cent share the Deputy PM's belief that the schools should only be able to employ qualified teachers and 56% believe the national curriculum should be compulsory for all institutions."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/10/support-free-schools-collapsing

    What a shame for the Messiah Gove, looks like he pleases the core vote and no one else, who could've guessed?

    Support is down from 36% to 27%, Opposition up from 40% to 47%.

    By voters (q only asked in England, as no free Schools in Scotland or Wales) if they are in favour of free school

    Con 38

    LD 20

    Lab 17

    and

    The proportion who say that the Lib Dems should keep differences behind closed doors has dropped from 28 per cent in September 2011 to 18 per cent now.

    The proportion who said instead that the Lib Dems should distance themselves further dropped from 25 to 22, while there was a corresponding rise from 33 to 37 per cent in the number who thought the Lib Dems should leave the coalition entirely.
  • Dec 31st????????
    New year messages from message from Cameron Clegg both start exactly the same; "We've done our best, and are grateful to our former partners but sadly we could not make them see sense on …… (here the differences start!)
    PfP has elaborated on this theme so I don't want to repeat at length, or steal any credit from him, but basically the separation process has to begin well in advance of a GE if it is to have any credibility. I would have thought this meant six months minimum, and Dec 31st would be leaving it a bit late.

    In some ways I think you can say the process has already begun, but a formal dissolution of the partnership more than twelve months out from a GE might seem a bit irresponsible, and undermine the original justification for the marriage.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    tim said:

    Support for Free Schools only running at 38% of Tories, 37% opposed.

    Tory voters massively support Cleggs positions

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mjl7fdlimv/YG-Archive-Times-results-231013-free-schools.pdf

    Free Schools opposed by every age group, class gender and region.

    Somehow this has passed the PBTories by. Nothing new here.
  • I don't know - one reason I've invited Stella is to be able to ask that sort of question. But CUs are neither universally available in Britain (since they are partly dependent on volunteer help) nor vigorously advertised (perhaps not spending a lot of dosh on adverts is part of the model?). If I needed a payday loan I would certainly know how to find Wonga, but would need to Google and hunt around to find a local CU, if there is one in Highbury.

    To be clear: I'm not saying they're wonderful. I genuinely don't know enough about the subject, so am taking steps to find out. I theorise that voters won't mind that sort of approach now and then - eternal certainty is alienating.

    Thanks for your reply Nick, as courteous as ever. I don't know enough about them, but shouldn't we be looking at why they're needed rather than what they do?

    As a first step I can see two examples

    (1) A twenty four year old graduate, boozed up after payday, but doesn't mind forking out the extra money and living that way, when they know that in three or four years they'll be out of this, and they don't care (all their friends do the same)
    (2) People who are genuinely living from day to day, with not much hope of things getting better.

    IMO, we should just let the people in category (1) get on with it and learn. I know quite a few of these people.

    Category (2) is worth spending time and effort looking at.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,731

    I don't know - one reason I've invited Stella is to be able to ask that sort of question. But CUs are neither universally available in Britain (since they are partly dependent on volunteer help) nor vigorously advertised (perhaps not spending a lot of dosh on adverts is part of the model?). If I needed a payday loan I would certainly know how to find Wonga, but would need to Google and hunt around to find a local CU, if there is one in Highbury.

    To be clear: I'm not saying they're wonderful. I genuinely don't know enough about the subject, so am taking steps to find out. I theorise that voters won't mind that sort of approach now and then - eternal certainty is alienating.

    With credit unions you need to save a minimum amount for a fixed number of weeks with them before being eligible for loans. Loans I think are then multiples of what you have saved etc.
    Payday loans you just go on web or walk down the high street so much easier to get one at very short notice.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    Patrick Wintour: Lib Dem sources saying switching some green levies like warm homes discount to general taxation would be progressive -i.e. Fairer.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited October 2013

    Thanks for your reply Nick, as courteous as ever. I don't know enough about them, but shouldn't we be looking at why they're needed rather than what they do?

    As a first step I can see two examples

    (1) A twenty four year old graduate, boozed up after payday, but doesn't mind forking out the extra money and living that way, when they know that in three or four years they'll be out of this, and they don't care (all their friends do the same)
    (2) People who are genuinely living from day to day, with not much hope of things getting better.

    IMO, we should just let the people in category (1) get on with it and learn. I know quite a few of these people.

    Category (2) is worth spending time and effort looking at.


    Looking at the average Wonga customer - 18 to 35, single, no dependants, Facebook user - I would guess that more of them come under Category (1), so I am not sure how relevant a Credit Union will be to them.

    http://www.openwonga.com/uploads/openwonga_statistics.pdf
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Conservative strategy was laid out three weeks ago by two little-known policy wonks:

    (1)

    http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/09/30/george-osborne-s-conference-speech-in-full

    "Here’s our serious plan for a grown-up country. First, sound money. The bedrock of any sustained recovery and improved living standards is economic stability.

    That is what the hard work and sacrifice of the last three years has all been about.

    In that time we have brought the deficit down by a third. And the British public know that whoever is elected will face some very hard choices.

    Let me tell you the principles I bring to that task. Our country’s problem is not that it taxes too little.

    It is that its government spends too much. So while no responsible Chancellor ever rules out tax changes, I think it can be done by reducing spending and capping welfare, not by raising taxes.

    That’s my plan. And surely the lesson of the last decade is that it’s not enough to clean up the mess after it’s happened?

    You’ve got to take action before it happens. It should be obvious to anyone that in the years running up to the crash this country should have been running a budget surplus.

    That’s what we mean when we say they didn’t fix the roof when the sun was shining. Let us never make that same mistake again.

    Never again should anyone doing my job be so foolish, so deluded, as to believe that they have abolished the age-old cycle of boom and bust.

    So I can tell you today that when we’ve dealt with Labour’s deficit, we will have a surplus in good times as insurance against difficult times ahead.

    Provided the recovery is sustained, our goal is to achieve that surplus in the next Parliament.

    That will bear down on our debts and prepare us for the next rainy day. That is going to require discipline and spending control."

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    (2)

    http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2013/10/david-camerons-speech-conservative-party-conference-2013-full-text

    "OUR MISSION

    These past few years have been a real struggle.

    But what people want to know now is: was the struggle worth it?

    And here's the honest answer.

    The struggle will only be worth it if we as a country finish the job we've started.

    Finishing the job means understanding this.

    Our economy may be turning the corner - and of course that's great.

    But we still haven't finished paying for Labour's Debt Crisis.

    If anyone thinks that's over, done, dealt with - they're living in a fantasy land.

    This country's debt crisis, created by Labour, is not over.

    After three years of cuts, we still have one of the biggest deficits in the world.

    We are still spending more than we earn.

    We still need to earn more and yes, our Government still needs to spend less.

    I see that Labour have stopped talking about the debt crisis and now they talk about the cost of living crisis.

    As if one wasn't directly related to the other.

    If you want to know what happens if you don't deal with a debt crisis..

    ...and how it affects the cost of living...

    ...just go and ask the Greeks.

    So finishing the job means sticking to our course until we've paid off all of Labour's deficit, not just some of it.

    And yes - let's run a surplus so that this time we fix the roof when the sun is shining...

    ...as George said in that brilliant speech on Monday.

    To abandon deficit reduction now would throw away all the progress we've made.

    It would put us back to square one.

    Unbelievably, that's exactly what Labour now want to do.

    How did they get us into this mess?

    Too much spending, too much borrowing, too much debt.

    And what did they propose last week?

    More spending, more borrowing, more debt.

    They have learned nothing - literally nothing - from the crisis they created."
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    malcolmg said:

    Simon, Saying as bad is maybe a bit over the top , but they are far from innocent regarding fleecing the public. With regard to payday loans I personally think the initial charges are fair for the short term , issue seems to arise when they roll the loans , that does need looking at to ensure people do not get themselves into trouble.
    Absolutely - as for the bit over the top remark, - all part of your charm MrG. : )
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    Support is down from 36% to 27%, Opposition up from 40% to 47%.

    By voters (q only asked in England, as no free Schools in Scotland or Wales) if they are in favour of free school

    Con 38

    LD 20

    Lab 17

    and

    The proportion who say that the Lib Dems should keep differences behind closed doors has dropped from 28 per cent in September 2011 to 18 per cent now.

    The proportion who said instead that the Lib Dems should distance themselves further dropped from 25 to 22, while there was a corresponding rise from 33 to 37 per cent in the number who thought the Lib Dems should leave the coalition entirely.
    I suspect that many people don't know what a free school is and that they think that the term "unqualified" means someone who has no depth in a subject whereas it is being used for someone who doesn't have a teaching qualification. The public needs to be better informed.

  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    edited October 2013
    JonathanD said:



    Looking at the average Wonga customer - 18 to 35, single, no dependants, Facebook user - I would guess that more of them come under Category (1), so I am not sure how relevant a Credit Union will be to them.

    http://www.openwonga.com/uploads/openwonga_statistics.pdf

    Makes you wonder why they need the money really. Bearing in mind that payday generally means these people are working and have regular income, why can't they manage?

    Interesting stats from your link

    24.8% loans repaid early
    93.5% never extended.
    1.1% extended three times.
    79.2% of first loan applications declined.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Pulpstar said:

    Ooh Crikey, Hope its not a repeat of 1953 ://
    Shouldn't be. 1953 was a storm moving south-east over the North Sea bringing northerlies down to create a storm surge. This looks a lot more like 1987, with a low coming in along the south coast.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    tim said:

    And they wonder why they get everything wrong and never learn.
    Falkirk.

    How's that working out?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    Finally! Ed says something about Grangemouth: James Lansdale tweets: "Ed Miliband says he has spoken to Unite about Grangemouth. "They fully understand the gravity of the situation."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,671
    Interesting that Wonga only approve to 20.8% of their applicants. From their own statistics it seems they have lent out £1.9 Bn of loans (272 * 7,000,000).

    Anyway in 2012 they lent out £1.2 Bn and made £62.5 million.

    I work that out as 5% ROI.

    5% - Where have I heard that one before....
  • Mr. Dickson, Confucius say: show me a post where you criticised Salmond before accusing others of sycophancy :p

    There is a huge difference between refraining from criticising your party leader and boke-inducing partisan sycophancy. Most people instinctively understand that cheerleading is counterproductive. A few do not.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    There is a huge difference between refraining from criticising your party leader and boke-inducing partisan sycophancy. Most people instinctively understand that cheerleading is counterproductive. A few do not.

    Sycophancy or millenarianism? It's a tough call which is more irritating.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,588


    Thanks for your reply Nick, as courteous as ever. I don't know enough about them, but shouldn't we be looking at why they're needed rather than what they do?

    As a first step I can see two examples

    (1) A twenty four year old graduate, boozed up after payday, but doesn't mind forking out the extra money and living that way, when they know that in three or four years they'll be out of this, and they don't care (all their friends do the same)
    (2) People who are genuinely living from day to day, with not much hope of things getting better.

    IMO, we should just let the people in category (1) get on with it and learn. I know quite a few of these people.

    Category (2) is worth spending time and effort looking at.

    Thanks, Gerry - I agree with your analysis. As Malcolm notes a savings record is relevant for CUs and that would tend to benefit (2) rather than (1). The problem is avoiding someone in (2) getting sucked into a cycle of doom - they may not have been able to establish a savings record, even a tiny one, and the crisis may have crept up on them and exploded (a broken home, a lost job).

    As with food banks they are as you imply a symptom rather than a disease, but one needs to treat symptoms too. Arguably we need a targeted expansion of welfare (shock horror) for people in this situation, so long as it's narrowly defined.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    SeanT said:

    Heh.

    How stinking rich are you today sean?
  • Betfair - In-play - Dunfermline - Winner

    Lab 1.1
    SNP 7.4
    LD 40
    Any other 40

    All bookies have now closed trading on the by-election. Lab were at 1.1 (PP) and 1.2 (Lad) when prices were suspended.
  • If you ban wonga from making money out of poor people (don't ,say Oxfam staff do that by getting wages and defined benefit pensions etc?) then you realise what will replace them don't you ? Wonga and its like are angels compared to more 'independant' loan sharks
  • What you actually need is more firms like wonga to drive competition and therefore drive down interest rates not more regulations which force the market to seize up and force many to go to truly revolting and nasty loan sharks
  • What you actually need is more firms like wonga to drive competition and therefore drive down interest rates not more regulations which force the market to seize up and force many to go to truly revolting and nasty loan sharks

    :wish we had the like button, or even a love button:
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Vote Liberal Democrat or we'll blow you up.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-24653507

    I wonder which part of the Alliance dragged that one in the ex Liberals or the ex SDers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    I see OGH is having a twittergasm over the Free Schools poll 'good news for Clegg, bad for Gove'......

    .......funnily enough, I suspect both will be in the same jobs at the end of next week.....next month.....next year.....

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mjl7fdlimv/YG-Archive-Times-results-231013-free-schools.pdf
  • I see OGH is having a twittergasm over the Free Schools poll 'good news for Clegg, bad for Gove'......

    .......funnily enough, I suspect both will be in the same jobs at the end of next week.....next month.....next year.....

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mjl7fdlimv/YG-Archive-Times-results-231013-free-schools.pdf

    I find it ironic that a supposedly LIBERAL party like the lib dems oppose the free school concept and a supposedly conservative party promotes them. Strange set of values the parties have these days . The lib dems just seem a statist party more than ever
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    I see OGH is having a twittergasm over the Free Schools poll 'good news for Clegg, bad for Gove'......

    .......funnily enough, I suspect both will be in the same jobs at the end of next week.....next month.....next year.....

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mjl7fdlimv/YG-Archive-Times-results-231013-free-schools.pdf

    Next year for Clegg maybe. But the year after? It's Mini Coach, err, Mini Bus, err Mini for the Lib Dems.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    Something not yet commented on in the Twittergasm over free schools - should the Lib Dems stay in the coalition? (vs Sept 2011)

    The Liberal Democrats should work closely with the Conservatives in coalition and keep any differences behind closed doors: 18 (-10)

    The Liberal Democrats should stay in coalition, but distance themselves more from the Conservatives and criticise policies they disagree with: 22 (-3)

    The Liberal Democrats should leave the coalition entirely: 37 (+4)
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    tim said:

    Free Schools are a massive exercise in centralisation with all power residing in Goves office with funding and decision making kept totally secret.
    Goves is essentially a Trotskyist not a liberal.
    I wouldn't say Trotskyist. There's little evidence of central control and direction, and no splitting. Maoist is more accurate.
  • tim said:

    Free Schools are a massive exercise in centralisation with all power residing in Goves office with funding and decision making kept totally secret.
    Goves is essentially a Trotskyist not a liberal.
    Nice try but they are not . OF course the funding is centralised (as it is with other schools even if the LEA nominally dishes it out) . The concept is about freedom to educate in what is deemed the best way by the school . That is a liberal concept and one I am surprised the lib dems are so against.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    What you actually need is more firms like wonga to drive competition and therefore drive down interest rates not more regulations which force the market to seize up and force many to go to truly revolting and nasty loan sharks


    The problem with Wonga or firms like it isn't that the interest rates are particularly high (once you strip out admin costs) but that we have a large segment of society who seem to rely on borrowed money to get to the end of each month. Even if Wonga only had interest rates of 5% or less, they would still be a sign of things not being right.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,671
    JonathanD said:


    The problem with Wonga or firms like it isn't that the interest rates are particularly high (once you strip out admin costs) but that we have a large segment of society who seem to rely on borrowed money to get to the end of each month. Even if Wonga only had interest rates of 5% or less, they would still be a sign of things not being right.
    They'd lose cash on 5% I think. Not viable...
  • I wouldn't say Trotskyist. There's little evidence of central control and direction, and no splitting. Maoist is more accurate.

    'Let a thousand flowers bloom'
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,097
    F1: Indian Grand Prix could be cancelled:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24651627
  • JonathanD said:


    The problem with Wonga or firms like it isn't that the interest rates are particularly high (once you strip out admin costs) but that we have a large segment of society who seem to rely on borrowed money to get to the end of each month. Even if Wonga only had interest rates of 5% or less, they would still be a sign of things not being right.
    Very true and it makes it all the maddening that labour especially go after the 'cure' and not the problem. As I said people will always stuggle for cash and if wonga dont provide a service (which may seem expensive but you keep your legs and arms intact if you don't pay them back) then more nasty members of society will.

    I suspect that the loan shark of old is having a more lean time since wonga came on the scene but labour likes to regulate and attack corporates more than seeing practicality
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    "France’s top football clubs to go on strike over 75% tax on earnings
    France’s top football clubs will go on strike at the end of November in protest against the government’s plans to impose a 75 percent tax on earnings over one million euros, the country’s Union of Professional Football Clubs has announced."

    http://www.france24.com/en/breaking/20131024-france’-top-football-clubs-go-strike-over-75-tax-earnings
  • tim said:

    Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv
    Labour to call for vote in Commons next week to capitalise on Nick Clegg's speech that free schools should employ only qualified teachers

    I seem to remember predicting that, smart politics.

    But is it a good idea?

    Oh, of course, this is Labour - what a silly question. They have the faintest glimmer of an interest in that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256

    That is a liberal concept and one I am surprised the lib dems are so against.
    They are only against it for state funded schools - Public Schools, like the ones Clegg & the Hon Hunt went to would not be affected....so its about money, not 'duty of care'.....

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    tim said:

    Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv
    Labour to call for vote in Commons next week to capitalise on Nick Clegg's speech that free schools should employ only qualified teachers.

    Do you think Clegg will explain why he got Liberal peers in the Lords to vote against it?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,671

    "France’s top football clubs to go on strike over 75% tax on earnings
    France’s top football clubs will go on strike at the end of November in protest against the government’s plans to impose a 75 percent tax on earnings over one million euros, the country’s Union of Professional Football Clubs has announced."

    http://www.france24.com/en/breaking/20131024-france’-top-football-clubs-go-strike-over-75-tax-earnings

    Bet PSG's various player deals and accounts make for 'interesting' reading...
  • IF labour are going to vote on sacking unqualified teachers then there are a lot of them to sack
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Interesting debate on Free Schools.

    The poll is interesting but what right have you or I to tell a parent how their child should be educated?

    There is a good deal of spin surrounding free schools, has anyone ever done a poll of satisfaction of parents who actually send their kids to these places? would they recommend a free school to others?

    I don;t know if anyone's read Guido, but Nick Clegg got thoroughly monstered on LBC on the basis some of his own teachers did not possess a PGCE. Presumably that might be true of the right honourable Dr Tristram Hunt too...???

    How many of the teachers who are at failing schools or who on disciplinary charges of one sort or another in England and Wales hold PGCEs? Surely most, if not absolutely all.

  • Cameron and co nicked their "free schools" (sic) idea from Sweden.

    English Tories may like to note that the Swedish free schools experiment is a big factor in the likely defeat of the sitting centre-right government next September.
  • WelshJonesWelshJones Posts: 66
    edited October 2013
    The present Conservative logo is one of the worst ever designed - for anything.

    It's closely associated with Cameron and did him no good whatsoever. Along with his 'call me Dave' idiocy at the outset, it established him as juvenile, 'wannabeloved' Johnny-come-lately when his primary deficiency at that time was gravitas.

    The quicker the Conservatives return to their old logo (indicative of a return to old values), the quicker they'll make inroads into the UKIP defectors.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Mark Thompson @MarkReckons
    I see Tristram Hunt won't take a ministerial role in a Lib/Lab coalition then. He is against them in principle: labourlist.org/2013/10/sorry-…

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,588



    I find it ironic that a supposedly LIBERAL party like the lib dems oppose the free school concept and a supposedly conservative party promotes them. Strange set of values the parties have these days . The lib dems just seem a statist party more than ever

    Wouldn't you agree that there is an objective dilemma in getting it right, though? Kids only have one childhood and parents aren't necessarily expert consumers in deciding the best school, so a completely liberal approach - anyone can set up a school employing anyone, let's see what works - isn't sensible or TBF really proposed by anyone (except perhaps your good self?). Conversely the French system under which you can predict what will be said at 3.45 in any school in France as it's all centrally dictated also seems wrong, and impervious to improvements in teaching ideas.

    The answer has to be somewhere in the middle, with experimentation encouraged but the State in some form (local authorities or whatever) keeping out the nastiest cases, encouraging the spread of successes and reserving the right to intervene when it goes wrong.

    Since it will vary how far this is pursued in practice and areas vary vastly anyway, the results will still be uneven. I don't think there's an obviously superior model, or that politicisation of the issue has advanced matters, do you?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The very fact that labour wants to impose PGCE teachers on free schools shows you precisely who the control freaks in this are. And it isn't the tories.

    The left cannot abide the thought of responsible citizens being left to their own devices.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    Will Hutton is a dick.

    He has that supercilious do what I say not what I do I know best the state knows best the state c'est moi complete tosser element about him.

    Actually, come to think of it, has tim been posting while DP has been on?
  • What you actually need is more firms like wonga to drive competition and therefore drive down interest rates not more regulations which force the market to seize up and force many to go to truly revolting and nasty loan sharks

    OFT said there were over 240 Wonga type companies in the UK in 2012. What would be your optimum number for true competitiveness?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Kids only have one childhood and parents aren't necessarily expert consumers in deciding the best school,

    Note to Parents: Stop thinking, and leave your child's education to us. The state knows best.

    Like in Wales, where labour is king, and a recent report showed the poorest 7 and 8 -year olds were way behind their English peers.
  • OFT said there were over 240 Wonga type companies in the UK in 2012. What would be your optimum number for true competitiveness?
    no idea but if you regulate most of them out of business you will drive up the interest rate and also provide a comeback for loan sharks who do not file accounts or think GBH/ABH is anything that should be avoided in the event of default
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    taffys said:

    Interesting debate on Free Schools.

    The poll is interesting but what right have you or I to tell a parent how their child should be educated?

    There is a good deal of spin surrounding free schools, has anyone ever done a poll of satisfaction of parents who actually send their kids to these places? would they recommend a free school to others?

    I don;t know if anyone's read Guido, but Nick Clegg got thoroughly monstered on LBC on the basis some of his own teachers did not possess a PGCE. Presumably that might be true of the right honourable Dr Tristram Hunt too...???

    How many of the teachers who are at failing schools or who on disciplinary charges of one sort or another in England and Wales hold PGCEs? Surely most, if not absolutely all.

    Not sure if any polls have been done, but I to would be interested in some polling evidence on the subject.

    As it is, all we have to go on is the vast rise in free schools and by all accounts the over subscription in some areas to them – only time will tell if children are benefitting from the changes and that parents are happy.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,776
    taffys said:

    The very fact that labour wants to impose PGCE teachers on free schools shows you precisely who the control freaks in this are. And it isn't the tories.

    The left cannot abide the thought of responsible citizens being left to their own devices.

    Heaven forbid having qualified teachers in our schools. I guess the right want free hospitals staffed by people who fancy a crack at surgery too.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112


    As it is, all we have to go on is the vast rise in free schools and by all accounts the over subscription in some areas to them –

    There you go with your free market parent choice madness.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    Gove wanted to copy that.

    It's a fair point, except judging by that article Sweden allows 'for profit' schools. England does not.

    If my memory serves me correctly, instances of financial educational crookedness have been restricted to certain senior teachers at LEA schools (presumably fully qualified with PGCEs) misappropriating the portion of funding remitted to them directly.

    Personally I think these should be turned into free schools immediately. Much safer.
  • I can see a case for the ability to employ non-PGCE teachers in secondary schools. I would not let them near primary school children.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,256
    tim said:

    They are a disaster area
    A misleading précis at best:

    "However, Mr Lofven admitted that with more than a third of Swedish upper secondary schools and a sixth of elementary schools now run by private operators, it would be impossible to reverse the policy.

    "Some of them are doing very well. It's not as if all private schools are doing (badly)," he said. "It's more important to deliver quality than it is who runs it. Quality is the most important thing."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,671

    I can see a case for the ability to employ non-PGCE teachers in secondary schools. I would not let them near primary school children.

    That is an obviously sensible suggestion in my book.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    They are a disaster area

    http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6343931

    Gove wanted to copy that.
    The article doesn't actually support the suggestion that they are a disaster at all, but in any case that's a bit rich coming from a Labour supporter:

    OECD ranking 16-24 year olds, out of 24 countries

    Sweden: 7 (Literacy), 8 (Numeracy)

    England (people educated almost entirely under Labour): 19 Literacy, 21 Numeracy

    Labour supporters looking for an educational disaster area need to take a long hard look at themselves.

    (Incidentally those OECD figures are of course actually flattering to the UK state sector, because they include those educated in our excellent private schools - you know, the ones that employ some unqualified teachers.)
  • Wouldn't you agree that there is an objective dilemma in getting it right, though? Kids only have one childhood and parents aren't necessarily expert consumers in deciding the best school, so a completely liberal approach - anyone can set up a school employing anyone, let's see what works - isn't sensible or TBF really proposed by anyone (except perhaps your good self?). Conversely the French system under which you can predict what will be said at 3.45 in any school in France as it's all centrally dictated also seems wrong, and impervious to improvements in teaching ideas.

    The answer has to be somewhere in the middle, with experimentation encouraged but the State in some form (local authorities or whatever) keeping out the nastiest cases, encouraging the spread of successes and reserving the right to intervene when it goes wrong.

    Since it will vary how far this is pursued in practice and areas vary vastly anyway, the results will still be uneven. I don't think there's an obviously superior model, or that politicisation of the issue has advanced matters, do you?

    Well I think the truth is that the concept of free schools is somewhere in the middle. As shown with the islamic school in Derby the state can get involved in extreme cases . I think the Labour and Lib dem approach of only having 'qualified' teachers is too far down the statist line and think Gove is getting this right. It is of course an experiment and things will go wrong but overall it will shake education up which has been sleepwalking into a very mediocre standard for years
  • Well I think the truth is that the concept of free schools is somewhere in the middle. As shown with the islamic school in Derby the state can get involved in extreme cases . I think the Labour and Lib dem approach of only having 'qualified' teachers is too far down the statist line and think Gove is getting this right. It is of course an experiment and things will go wrong but overall it will shake education up which has been sleepwalking into a very mediocre standard for years
    I would add that I don't think the area should be politicised . Gove introduced it not to hurt Labour or put a dividing line between the tories and the lib dems , he did it because he believed in it. Its the Lib dems and Labour who are now jumping on the bandwagon of one failure in Derby to rally against them
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited October 2013
    @Jonathan
    The very fact that labour wants to impose PGCE teachers on free schools shows you precisely who the control freaks in this are. And it isn't Tories

    Heaven forbid having qualified teachers in our schools. I guess the right want free hospitals staffed by people who fancy a crack at surgery too."

    I'd put Gove and the whole Tory front bench in a 737 and get Martin Day to pilot it. He liked flying
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I do hope so. Doctors mostly loathe NHS redirect as all alogarithims seem to end with an urgent visit to the GP or Emergency. It always was an expensive Blairite gimmick, designed for appearence rather than utility. I am not surprised that tim likes it, he is a Blairite gimmick lover.
    tim said:

    In other news the ideology crazed lunatics have shut down NHS Direct at last after three and a half years deliberately wrecking it.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited October 2013

    I can see a case for the ability to employ non-PGCE teachers in secondary schools. I would not let them near primary school children.

    Mr SO. Agree entirely with your first point – but would be interested to know a little more on your opinion as to why primary school level should be out of bounds as I’ve yet to formulate an opinion on the matter.

    Cheers in advance - and please feel free to ignore.
  • I can see a case for the ability to employ non-PGCE teachers in secondary schools. I would not let them near primary school children.

    We had a maths teacher like that at school. The guy didn't know how to teach in class, he'd never taught before, but had a PHD in maths/physics, and twenty years experience in the real world.

    The good thing was he was the only teacher I met who could give us guidance on what to do after school.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    JackW said:

    Says the fake Cheshire farmer ....

    Irony meter now in orbit heading for planet "tim"

    I had assumed he was the product of some crap Labour job creation plan.

    You know, sit around all day posting crap and getting paid for it.

    Why else would you waste your life doing it?

This discussion has been closed.