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  • Thread after thread anti-Conservative, pro Lib-Dem.
    And whilst I'm about it the incumbency one from the other day was arrant nonsense. Outside your westminster clique, Mike, the public don't think 'oooh it's not really the coalition standing so they're not truly incumbent'. They see David Cameron, Prime Minister, outside No.10 Downing Street and he is the one they will either vote for, or won't. You can rant and ramble as much as you like but that's the reality buddy.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Pong said:

    tim said:

    It's going to be difficult to spot the difference between fake Dave and fake fake Dave, really whats the point of him?

    lol.

    Still, Labour should be grateful - a competent tory leader would be trouncing EdM in the polls.
    The last time Mori asked the question [in August], 16% said that they like Cameron, but don't like the Tories and 11% said they don't like Cameron, but do like the Tories.

    So Cameron was still outpolling his party, and thus the Conservatives would have been polling worse with a neutral leader. It will be interesting to see if those numbers change the next time Mori ask the question.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    SNP now at 6.8 at Betfair

    And unlayable. Victory for Labour.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited October 2013

    SNP now at 6.8 at Betfair

    Don't get too excited Stuart. The total amount of bets of all kinds that's been matched is a mere £483.

  • On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    edited October 2013
    @Alanbrooke

    "I disagree with your comments on logos, Roger old boy, surely the best logo is Ed's policy list, a Rothko collage of white on white on white."

    A new dawn....A new beginning.....A clean sheet....

    A Rothko white on white. I love it!I
  • I think one area that Dave and indeed all politicians should do in the green debate is to decouple pollution / environment from climate change.

    Many natural 'greens' are deeply motivated by issues such as polluted rivers, smog, vehicle emission particulates, lead, flytipping, trash, and the general despoilment of natural beauty. But this is NOT the same thing as worrying about CO2 and climate change. The latter has completely hijacked the green debate - for the worse.

    A politician who stood up squarely for the former but was not so worried about the latter would benefit electorally.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    The SNP total bets matched on Betfair at this crucial Holyrood by-election is now £99
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847

    As a frequent user of the Manchester Piccadilly to Euston Service, John Redwood and some of you is talking rubbish.

    They should use the HS2 money to improve the Northern intercity routes such as Sheffield to Manchester.

    Sheffield to Manchester improvements will be happening regardless of HS2, as part of the Northern Hub project. As well as shorter journey times, there will be four trains an hour instead of two.

    http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/jul/16/manchester-greater-manchester
    http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/business/rail-investment-plan-set-to-bring-better-services-for-south-yorkshire-1-5293737
    http://www.sheffieldlibdems.org.uk/2013/06/24/minister-calls-all-aboard-for-sheffield-rail-investment/

    So you can have your improvements in your local area and HS2.

    It doesn't get much better, does it?
  • SNP now at 6.8 at Betfair

    Don't get too excited Stuart. The total amount of bets of all kinds that's been matched is a mere £483.

    Agreed that Betfair is like a ghosttown, but I'm sure that the various bookies did a fair bit of trade over the last few weeks on this by-election.

    Even the bigger, more established betfair political markets are very illiquid.
  • As a frequent user of the Manchester Piccadilly to Euston Service, John Redwood and some of you is talking rubbish.

    They should use the HS2 money to improve the Northern intercity routes such as Sheffield to Manchester.

    Sheffield to Manchester improvements will be happening regardless of HS2, as part of the Northern Hub project. As well as shorter journey times, there will be four trains an hour instead of two.

    http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/jul/16/manchester-greater-manchester
    http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/business/rail-investment-plan-set-to-bring-better-services-for-south-yorkshire-1-5293737
    http://www.sheffieldlibdems.org.uk/2013/06/24/minister-calls-all-aboard-for-sheffield-rail-investment/

    So you can have your improvements in your local area and HS2.

    It doesn't get much better, does it?
    Life would be much better if a first class season ticket guaranteed me a seat in the morning.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Pulpstar said:

    Abbot, Huhne rumoured for the jungle...

    Pass the mind bleach - at least Brian Paddick had a cute arse.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    The impression of the Government being on the defensive does seem to be feeding through to YouGov (8 and 7 point Labour leads in the last two days, and a narrowing of the "best PM" level by 3 - DC 35, EM 24, NC 4, DK 37), though we need a few more polls to be sure. That NC 4 must be the real LibDem core vote - 38% of the 9% currently planning to vote LD.

    On topic, the argument for green taxes has always been that they nudge consumers to use less energy while nudging producers to shift to production forms that will be safer for the environment (nobody really think carbon emissions are a jolly good thing) and probably less costly than oil and gas in the future. Compared with other "neutral" forms of tax - VAT, for instance - they do constitute a Government market intervention, but a reasonable one IMO. The nuclear subsidy (the 92p price guarantee) is in exactly the same category and it'd be difficult to reduce green taxation (and presumably increasing tax on something else) just after agreeing that.
  • tim said:

    Crikey! That didn't last long! PP have literally within minutes gone from 1.2 to 1.17 to 1.1

    Must be a heck of a lot of money piling onto LAB this morning. Let's see if it is very wise money or very daft money.

    It takes a lang spoon tae sup wi a Fifer.

    It doesn't take a Fifer to move Paddy Power odds, it takes a fiver

    Probably not too far off the mark.

    So, tim, are you foreseeing an SNP Hold then? ;)
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    The Copenhagen cry baby, closing coal burning power stations and forcing electricity bills sky high.

    The Watchdog warrior campaigning to reduce household energy costs.

    Which is the real Ed?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    edited October 2013
    By the way can the Gas/Elec companies stop the COMPLETE HORSESHIT about 'wholesale' costs.

    Here are some numbers from pre 2012

    http://citywire.co.uk/money/chart-of-the-day-wholesale-energy-prices-fall-but-our-bills-still-rise/a556006

    And Gas to Nov 2012 http://www.bluemarkconsultants.co.uk/business-gas-wholesale-prices.php

    Can't get hold of the data post this point, but my guess is it would be a widening. (Based off Sterling and the US$ Brent Crude relatively related price)

    They've used this wholesale excuse alot, sometimes it is true and of course it is one of their factors but often times it has been a flat out lie. At the very best it is weak correlation and not causation.
  • On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    No, these are lending money to footballers gambling away £7 million at Bet365. Without the mug money there might not be so much value/liquidity.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    and how much would that raise compared to the amount raised in green taxes on fuel ?
  • Pulpstar said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    No, these are lending money to footballers gambling away £7 million at Bet365. Without the mug money there might not be so much value/liquidity.
    No. We're allowed the very vulnerable in society to be exploited.

    It needs to stop.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Unite union leader joins Grangemouth talks
    The head of the Unite union, Len McCluskey, has arrived at the Grangemouth plant to join local union leaders in the talks on the future of the petrochemical plant and oil refinery.

    He denied that his appearance was an admission that his union had failed its members over the dispute, insisting he was "here to save the plant."

    http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-10-23/grangemouth-oil-refinery-talks/
  • On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    and how much would that raise compared to the amount raised in green taxes on fuel ?
    Not enough. It is one element of compensatory tax increases.

    Wonga alone made 80million profit last year.

    Taxing them at 98% would be a good start.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    No, these are lending money to footballers gambling away £7 million at Bet365. Without the mug money there might not be so much value/liquidity.
    No. We're allowed the very vulnerable in society to be exploited.

    It needs to stop.

    Lol Yes you have a point - My post was a bit putting 2 and 2 and getting 5 - But aren't wonga.com based abroad ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847

    As a frequent user of the Manchester Piccadilly to Euston Service, John Redwood and some of you is talking rubbish.

    They should use the HS2 money to improve the Northern intercity routes such as Sheffield to Manchester.

    Sheffield to Manchester improvements will be happening regardless of HS2, as part of the Northern Hub project. As well as shorter journey times, there will be four trains an hour instead of two.

    http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/jul/16/manchester-greater-manchester
    http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/business/rail-investment-plan-set-to-bring-better-services-for-south-yorkshire-1-5293737
    http://www.sheffieldlibdems.org.uk/2013/06/24/minister-calls-all-aboard-for-sheffield-rail-investment/

    So you can have your improvements in your local area and HS2.

    It doesn't get much better, does it?
    Life would be much better if a first class season ticket guaranteed me a seat in the morning.
    It's much more likely you'll get your seat with double the number of trains, some of which will be faster.

    I've often wondered if there's way that passengers could get a rebate if they're forced to stand due to lack of seats. Sadly, the tickets are not for a seat, but for travel. However first-class passengers should be able to get seats due to the premium they pay. Perhaps any such passenger should be able to ask the guard for a seat, and if one cannot be found, he gets a ticket for a refund from the operator. Although there are some obvious problems with that.

    Is the congestion really that bad on that line on your trains?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    No, these are lending money to footballers gambling away £7 million at Bet365. Without the mug money there might not be so much value/liquidity.
    No. We're allowed the very vulnerable in society to be exploited.

    It needs to stop.

    Lol Yes you have a point - My post was a bit putting 2 and 2 and getting 5 - But aren't wonga.com based abroad ?
    I think their parent company is based abroad, a quick google says their UK operations made a profit of 84 million last year.

  • The SNP total bets matched on Betfair at this crucial Holyrood by-election is now £99

    Anything on the previous holders of the seat, the Libdems? Surely the Carmichael effect must be kicking in by now.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Given McCluskey's pronouncements on Grangemouth, he's not the first person I'd send in to talks:

    “Unite calls upon politicians in Edinburgh and Westminster to support a new beginning for
    Grangemouth, free of the tyranny of one man’s whims.

    “If this means securing financial assistance – or even nationalisation – then this must be done.”

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/grangemouth-crisis-rescue-plan-snp-2482334
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The problem is not the volte face (the Conservatives have been selling themselves for some time on the basis of being the serious party for difficult times, making unpalatable decisions). The problem is that the new policy is not very good and doesn't deal with the tar pit that the Conservatives have got into over energy prices.

    It's baffling how they've made such a mess of it. The correct response should have been: "Ed Miliband's policy doesn't work, is actively counter-productive and shows he's an idiot." (Even without them following that line, the public are sceptical that the policy would work.) They should have held to that line with discipline until the Autumn Statement, when they could deal with it fiscally.

    Anyway, it's all entertaining viewing.
  • As a frequent user of the Manchester Piccadilly to Euston Service, John Redwood and some of you is talking rubbish.

    They should use the HS2 money to improve the Northern intercity routes such as Sheffield to Manchester.

    Sheffield to Manchester improvements will be happening regardless of HS2, as part of the Northern Hub project. As well as shorter journey times, there will be four trains an hour instead of two.

    http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/jul/16/manchester-greater-manchester
    http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/business/rail-investment-plan-set-to-bring-better-services-for-south-yorkshire-1-5293737
    http://www.sheffieldlibdems.org.uk/2013/06/24/minister-calls-all-aboard-for-sheffield-rail-investment/

    So you can have your improvements in your local area and HS2.

    It doesn't get much better, does it?
    Life would be much better if a first class season ticket guaranteed me a seat in the morning.
    It's much more likely you'll get your seat with double the number of trains, some of which will be faster.

    I've often wondered if there's way that passengers could get a rebate if they're forced to stand due to lack of seats. Sadly, the tickets are not for a seat, but for travel. However first-class passengers should be able to get seats due to the premium they pay. Perhaps any such passenger should be able to ask the guard for a seat, and if one cannot be found, he gets a ticket for a refund from the operator. Although there are some obvious problems with that.

    Is the congestion really that bad on that line on your trains?
    With a season ticket you can't reserve a seat.

    In the mornings it can be a nightmare, and there's only 12 seats in first class on TPE service.

    On the local stopping service there's no first class or reserved seating at all.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    edited October 2013
    antifrank said:

    The problem is not the volte face (the Conservatives have been selling themselves for some time on the basis of being the serious party for difficult times, making unpalatable decisions). The problem is that the new policy is not very good and doesn't deal with the tar pit that the Conservatives have got into over energy prices.

    It's baffling how they've made such a mess of it. The correct response should have been: "Ed Miliband's policy doesn't work, is actively counter-productive and shows he's an idiot." (Even without them following that line, the public are sceptical that the policy would work.) They should have held to that line with discipline until the Autumn Statement, when they could deal with it fiscally.

    Anyway, it's all entertaining viewing.

    You're absolutely spot on with that. The Tories have not played this well and John Major, by accident or design, has added to the quagmire.

    It's not anywhere near game-changing, but ham-fisted and inexplicable since we've known since July that Labour were shifting to focus on cost-of-living issues, having been wholly and humiliatingly discredited on macro-economic policy.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    O/T: Anyone here have a qualified opinion on ecotherapy (encouraging people to spend time outdoors etc.) for mental illness? MIND have sent me an email urging me to urge it on local CCGs, but rapidly reading their report I see just 1 in 10 participants reported feeling significantly better after completing a course. I'm reluctant to press new expenditure on hard-pressed CCGs. On the other hand, MIND are in my opnion a pretty good charity. Is there a consensus view on this?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Patrick, I entirely agree.

    Energy efficiency is another area where we don't need the phantom menace of climate change to be fully in favour of it.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Mark I would imagine it would be VAT at 17.5 % on some area which is VAT free at the moment.
    In the 90`s the Conservatives wanted to put the full amount of VAT onto energy bills,but only a strong campaign against made it 5%.
    New housing over 600k could be a start, this would bring it into line with what people have to pay for extensions or repair to existing housing stock.
  • The SNP total bets matched on Betfair at this crucial Holyrood by-election is now £99

    Anything on the previous holders of the seat, the Libdems? Surely the Carmichael effect must be kicking in by now.

    Ho ho. "The Carmichael Effect". That'll have to be rolled out at regular intervals for chortling and guffawing purposes.



  • I think their parent company is based abroad, a quick google says their UK operations made a profit of 84 million last year.

    There is demand for the service. Wouldn't it be better tackling the problem at its root causes?

    I don't know anyone who admits to using these companies, but I do know lots of people in their mid 20s (many of them graduates) who run out of money mid month, live on next to nothing until payday, then have a rave up for a week or so, and end up in the same position.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Palmer, does it give the cost?

    10% success isn't fantastic, but seeing as the outdoors should be (more or less) free then it could still be value for money.

    A direct comparison with the cost of anti-depressants would also be interesting (it's staggering how many people are on them).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,192

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    No, these are lending money to footballers gambling away £7 million at Bet365. Without the mug money there might not be so much value/liquidity.
    No. We're allowed the very vulnerable in society to be exploited.

    It needs to stop.

    I agree the exploitation of the poor by pay day loan companies needs to be stopped but what on earth makes you think that a tax will achieve that? One of the most important lessons a conservative needs to learn is that tax does not make anything better.

    Losing sight of this has caused some of the green tax problems. Taxes are a necessary evil to pay for essential services. They should be collected as efficiently and as painlessly as possible not distorting markets or influencing investment decisions more than is absolutely necessary.

    Pay day loans should be regulated. We used to have usury laws. They need to be enforced. We were supposed to have a commitment from the banksters to provide the poor with bank accounts. They need to be held to that promise. We should support credit unions and facilitate their spread in the pay day loan market area.

    Taxes on pay day loans, like almost all taxes, will end up being paid by the end user making the poor worse off.

  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596


    (nobody really think carbon emissions are a jolly good thing)

    I'm glad to read that, Nick. There seems to be quite a consensus on here that its all a global socialist conspiracy, and we should be burning as many fossils as possible to upset the communists :)
  • WelshJonesWelshJones Posts: 66
    edited October 2013

    O/T: Anyone here have a qualified opinion on ecotherapy (encouraging people to spend time outdoors etc.) for mental illness? MIND have sent me an email urging me to urge it on local CCGs, but rapidly reading their report I see just 1 in 10 participants reported feeling significantly better after completing a course. I'm reluctant to press new expenditure on hard-pressed CCGs. On the other hand, MIND are in my opnion a pretty good charity. Is there a consensus view on this?

    A standard part of any 'talking therapy' for depression is to take more exercise and to get outside more.

    The top of the head has an area sensitive to light (so wearing a cap is not helpful!) and this, as well as the eyes, stimulates a range of brain chemicals which have a positive affect on mood.

    In addition, the actual exertion involved in (eg) walking fairly quickly also helps with endorphins so again raising mood.

    Being outside (especially with other humans, but also with a dog) is 'good for you' in that most places people choose to visit and walk in have some Nature to observe and some scenery which changes day by day and that, too, uplifts one's mood as the seasons move on and the sights and views change minute-by-minute as the light, weather, etc alter.

    That's not taking into account those who suffer from serious SAD condition (I cannot imagine anyone who does not suffer from it to some extent!) and the additional Vit D which is synthesised, even in winter, from skin which is exposed to daylight - and, in general, we are low in Vit D (particularly young, screen-obsessed children today and Muslims with an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with total body covering when outside.

    Admirable to read of a socialist concerned with value-for-money and the need to limit expenditure (!) but this therapy (I'd call it common-sense advice) is, of course, entirely free! Indeed, in as much as it improves just about every aspect of one's health, I'd call it money *saving* from the NHS's perspective!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    O/T: Anyone here have a qualified opinion on ecotherapy (encouraging people to spend time outdoors etc.) for mental illness? MIND have sent me an email urging me to urge it on local CCGs, but rapidly reading their report I see just 1 in 10 participants reported feeling significantly better after completing a course. I'm reluctant to press new expenditure on hard-pressed CCGs. On the other hand, MIND are in my opnion a pretty good charity. Is there a consensus view on this?

    Not a qualified opinion - but spending time in the great outdoors must be good for both mental and physical wellbeing, surely ?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    @tim

    FPT

    "The British people are of course better in action than in polling when it comes to immigration, hence the huge gap between "Do you think immigrants are a problem nationally" compared to "Do you think immigrants are a problem in your area"

    and hence the fact that Londoners are less bothered than people in the Shandy Belt"

    I think a major failing in your understanding of this is that many people that live in London aren't Londoners, don't think of themselves as such, and when asked about immigrants in their area, being immigrants themselves they aren't bothered.

    And I include British people that aren't born and raised in London as immigrants to London in this case.

    Plenty who came to London to study or to work after University are very relaxed about London being multi cultural and diverse, ever changing etc because its not their home. If they were asked about their attitude if over 50% of the town where their parents live, where they were brought up, being unrecognisable from how it was when they grew up, Im sure their attitude would be different.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587



    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies

    It's a Miliband proposal (proceeds to go to credit unions). I've got Stella Creasy as my first post-selection speaker in Broxtowe on Saturday - we're interested in hearing the arguments on taxes and bans vs the risk of illegal lending. It's a non-trivial issue, which makes for better discussions than rah-rah rallies. I was asking someone involved in credit unions how they can afford to charge lower interest to people at high risk - she argues that because they're very local people know the applicant or his surroundings and can make more finely-tuned judgments, and there's more peer pressure to repay than with Wonga, who are seen as fair game who have priced in a possible default.
  • DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    No, these are lending money to footballers gambling away £7 million at Bet365. Without the mug money there might not be so much value/liquidity.
    No. We're allowed the very vulnerable in society to be exploited.

    It needs to stop.

    I agree the exploitation of the poor by pay day loan companies needs to be stopped but what on earth makes you think that a tax will achieve that? One of the most important lessons a conservative needs to learn is that tax does not make anything better.

    Losing sight of this has caused some of the green tax problems. Taxes are a necessary evil to pay for essential services. They should be collected as efficiently and as painlessly as possible not distorting markets or influencing investment decisions more than is absolutely necessary.

    Pay day loans should be regulated. We used to have usury laws. They need to be enforced. We were supposed to have a commitment from the banksters to provide the poor with bank accounts. They need to be held to that promise. We should support credit unions and facilitate their spread in the pay day loan market area.

    Taxes on pay day loans, like almost all taxes, will end up being paid by the end user making the poor worse off.

    I'd like the tax on payday loans to help finance both credit unions and expand the crisis loans systems.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847

    O/T: Anyone here have a qualified opinion on ecotherapy (encouraging people to spend time outdoors etc.) for mental illness? MIND have sent me an email urging me to urge it on local CCGs, but rapidly reading their report I see just 1 in 10 participants reported feeling significantly better after completing a course. I'm reluctant to press new expenditure on hard-pressed CCGs. On the other hand, MIND are in my opnion a pretty good charity. Is there a consensus view on this?

    No expertise aside from being an outdoors nut, but there's currently a guy walking the coast who suffers from mental illness, and is trying to raise awareness of mental illness issues.

    It may be worth talking to him about his views on exercise and mental illness. His name is Chris McCullough Young, and his Facebook page is at:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/walkamileinmyshoes/

    An inspirational man.

    I have an associate in this village who suffers from severe depression, and he swears that his evening walk with his dog keeps him just about functioning. Our friend who committed suicide earlier in the year worsened at about the time he had a physical problem that prevented him getting exercise, but his problems were much deeper than just that,
  • The SNP total bets matched on Betfair at this crucial Holyrood by-election is now £99

    Anything on the previous holders of the seat, the Libdems? Surely the Carmichael effect must be kicking in by now.

    Ho ho. "The Carmichael Effect". That'll have to be rolled out at regular intervals for chortling and guffawing purposes.

    If anything is rescued from the sorry mess of Grangemouth, I'm sure we'll have a blog from Caron Lindsay putting it down to "The Carmichael Effect".
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,423
    edited October 2013
    Actually, there's nothing tree's like better than C02 - I was reading a piece the other day that said there has been a measurable increase in "greenery" across the Earth as C02 has increased.

    So, The Mighty Oak will do very nicely out of more C02 being pumped into the air after Cam ends the "green tax" scam...
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    It's much more likely you'll get your seat with double the number of trains, some of which will be faster.

    I've often wondered if there's way that passengers could get a rebate if they're forced to stand due to lack of seats. Sadly, the tickets are not for a seat, but for travel. However first-class passengers should be able to get seats due to the premium they pay. Perhaps any such passenger should be able to ask the guard for a seat, and if one cannot be found, he gets a ticket for a refund from the operator. Although there are some obvious problems with that.

    Is the congestion really that bad on that line on your trains?

    One of the absurdities of the current train ticket situation is that on a busy train where people are having to stand it will be the people who have paid least - by booking advance tickets - who will have a guaranteed seat, and those who have paid most - at the station on the day - who will have to stand.

    It's the sort of thing that really creates resentment.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    GIN1138 said:

    Actually, there's nothing tree's like better than C02 - I was reading a piece the other day that said there has been a measurable increase in "greenery" across the Earth as C02 has increased.

    So, The Mighty Oak will do very nicely out of more C02 being pumped into the air after Cam ends the "green tax" scam...

    Mrs T. came out with something similar didn't she? But she was secretly wedded to the conspiracy and hence shutdown all the mines

  • The SNP total bets matched on Betfair at this crucial Holyrood by-election is now £99

    Anything on the previous holders of the seat, the Libdems? Surely the Carmichael effect must be kicking in by now.

    Ho ho. "The Carmichael Effect". That'll have to be rolled out at regular intervals for chortling and guffawing purposes.

    If anything is rescued from the sorry mess of Grangemouth, I'm sure we'll have a blog from Caron Lindsay putting it down to "The Carmichael Effect".
    Jeepers creepers. There's a blast from the past! Is she still on the go?

    I didn't think that anyone could ever exceed Fitalass for partisan sycophancy and boke-inducing cheerleading, but Caron Lindsay (LD) makes Fitalass look like a paragon of detached neutrality.

    When the Scottish Lib Dem membership numbers eventually dip below 1000 card carrying members, I'm sure that Caron will say it heralds a new dawn for her party.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    GIN1138 said:

    Actually, there's nothing tree's like better than C02 - I was reading a piece the other day that said there has been a measurable increase in "greenery" across the Earth as C02 has increased.

    So, The Mighty Oak will do very nicely out of more C02 being pumped into the air after Cam ends the "green tax" scam...

    Mrs T. came out with something similar didn't she? But she was secretly wedded to the conspiracy and hence shutdown all the mines

    I would have thought that the mines were closed due to lack of economic viability rather than any green issues.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,423
    edited October 2013
    More seriously, all Cameron has to say is that, sure, everyone wants to move to a greener and more healthy enviroment. Eventually it would be desirable to use as little Carbon as possible for our energy needs, but it has to be done sensibly and musn't be at the cost of people not being able to eat or heat in the winter.

    Essentially it's the same arguement for not increasing fuel duty on petrol. The aspiration of eventually living in a carbon neutral way has to meet the real life, every day needs of British citizens.

    Going green and helping to stop old people freezing to death in the winter don't have to be mutually exclusive.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited October 2013
    @NickPalmer

    There's a lot of empirical research that ecotherapy helps prisoners, both whist in prisons, and once they've been released, according to those I know that work in the prison service and probation service.

    I'll dig out a report, and email it you, if I can find it.

    Here's an outline from one of the studies I read (it's from the introduction here, at 1.1 of this study

    Over the past 25 years or so, a body of empirical evidence has accumulated which suggests that our relationship to the natural world has significant positive influence on psychological and physical health.

    Some of the beneficial physiological effects described include: faster recovery from surgery and illness (Frumkin, 2001; Ulrich, 1984), reduced health problems in prison inmate populations (Moore, 1982;
    West, 1986)

    http://www.ecotherapy.org.uk/files/ecotherapy/home/Anna_Adhamer_thesis.pdf
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    GIN1138 said:

    Actually, there's nothing tree's like better than C02 - I was reading a piece the other day that said there has been a measurable increase in "greenery" across the Earth as C02 has increased.

    So, The Mighty Oak will do very nicely out of more C02 being pumped into the air after Cam ends the "green tax" scam...

    Mrs T. came out with something similar didn't she? But she was secretly wedded to the conspiracy and hence shutdown all the mines

    Hmm. Following your logic, so was Arthur Scargill. Who'd have thought it.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    O/T: Anyone here have a qualified opinion on ecotherapy (encouraging people to spend time outdoors etc.) for mental illness? MIND have sent me an email urging me to urge it on local CCGs, but rapidly reading their report I see just 1 in 10 participants reported feeling significantly better after completing a course. I'm reluctant to press new expenditure on hard-pressed CCGs. On the other hand, MIND are in my opnion a pretty good charity. Is there a consensus view on this?

    Not an expert either, there doesn't seem to be particularly strong evidence for or against exercise as an intervention. I don't know if outdoor ones are included here:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004366.pub6/abstract

    on the other hand- it must be relatively cheap as a therapy?
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    GIN1138 said:

    Actually, there's nothing tree's like better than C02 - I was reading a piece the other day that said there has been a measurable increase in "greenery" across the Earth as C02 has increased.

    So, The Mighty Oak will do very nicely out of more C02 being pumped into the air after Cam ends the "green tax" scam...

    Mrs T. came out with something similar didn't she? But she was secretly wedded to the conspiracy and hence shutdown all the mines

    Hmm. Following your logic, so was Arthur Scargill. Who'd have thought it.
    its a global conspiracy, donchaknow
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    GIN1138 said:

    Actually, there's nothing tree's like better than C02 - I was reading a piece the other day that said there has been a measurable increase in "greenery" across the Earth as C02 has increased.

    So, The Mighty Oak will do very nicely out of more C02 being pumped into the air after Cam ends the "green tax" scam...

    Deforestation and spread of human habitat are far bigger problems than 'CO2' in my book. The biggest thing that we can do is help improve female literacy rates around the world. This leads to lower birthrates, and as ultimately the amount of people you have (Unless you don't want people to enjoy good standards of living) determines to a large extent CO2 emmissions that is probably the best long term focus... It would (In the very long run) lower immigration too as living standards abroad rise, and birth rate falls.

  • The top of the head has an area sensitive to light (so wearing a cap is not helpful!) and this, as well as the eyes, stimulates a range of brain chemicals which have a positive affect on mood.

    By that logic, baldies should be much happier than people with hair. Would OGH care to comment?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Dickson, Confucius say: show me a post where you criticised Salmond before accusing others of sycophancy :p
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edited October 2013
    GIN1138 said:

    The biggest thing that we can do is help improve female literacy rates around the world.

    Heartily agree. probably the majority of the overseas development budget should be directed towards this
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Socialist and a kipper combine to insult the PM. They don't have much else to offer!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited October 2013
    Blimey

    Is new Asterix Scotland's next Braveheart?

    The latest Asterix book, set in iron-age Scotland, is to be released on Thursday amid speculation that the story will reflect – if not influence – the country’s long-standing debate over independence from the United Kingdom

    http://www.france24.com/en/20131023-asterix-picts-scottish-independence-comic-books

    Edit: I wonder what those other great comic creations, Iron Man, Bruce Wayne, Bruce Banner et al are Nats or Unionists?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Eagles, it'd have to work hard to be as inaccurate as Braveheart.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Mr. Palmer, does it give the cost?

    10% success isn't fantastic, but seeing as the outdoors should be (more or less) free then it could still be value for money.

    A direct comparison with the cost of anti-depressants would also be interesting (it's staggering how many people are on them).

    There were more than 50 million prescriptions for anti-depressants in 2012, an increase of 7.5% on 2011, but costs were down by more than 20% because the price paid by the NHS for many of the drugs fell considerably. The total cost was more than £200m - I'm not sure if this is net of the prescription charge, at around £4 per prescription the NHS would make a profit on anti-depressants to those patients who pay if it is the gross cost.

    If a prescription is written for a month's worth of drugs at a time, then the 50 million prescriptions equates to just under 1-in-12 of the English population at any one time being prescribed anti-depressants.

    That would be about 63 of the workers at Grangemouth who were told yesterday that they had lost their job [out of 800], or nearly 2,500 members of UKIP [out of 31,500].
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    There's always someone having a worse day than you. Yesterday it was three midlands coppers. Today it's Harry Redknapp. #askharry has not exactly gone the way that QPR would have hoped this morning.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Antifrank, I just saw that.

    PaddyPower's question about Mario was good. Why are they called Super Mario Brothers? Is that their surname? Is Mario's name Mario Mario?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Charles said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Oh another believer in the magic money tree .
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,311
    edited October 2013

    Mr. Dickson, Confucius say: show me a post where you criticised Salmond before accusing others of sycophancy :p

    Confucius also say, big difference between @rse crawling and not beating politician over head with stick; @rse crawler always @rse crawler though.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,423
    @Tim

    You still going on about PMQ's 24hrs later? Don't you think you might be just a little OTT about Ed's victory?
  • Thanks antifrank

    Stupid Football ‏@StupidFootball 29m

    What's it like being the only man to crack under the pressure of being England manager without actually getting the job? #AskHarry

    and

    Full-Kit Wankers ‏@WankersFullKit 5m

    At what age did you adopt Jamie? #AskHarry
  • Damn you Antifrank, you've ruined my productivity this morning

    David Jack ‏@DamJef 33m

    #AskHarry How difficult was it going over Niagara Falls in a barrel dressed as a woman?

    pic.twitter.com/TtKdwkYRZX
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,423
    edited October 2013

    Charles said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Oh another believer in the magic money tree .
    "Green taxes" were always sold to the public as being cost neutral?

    Given they apparently don't cost or raise anything for the Chancellor, the economic boost that should be achieved by reducing the burden on energy costs may finish up creating a lot more money than is lost?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies

    It's a Miliband proposal (proceeds to go to credit unions). I've got Stella Creasy as my first post-selection speaker in Broxtowe on Saturday - we're interested in hearing the arguments on taxes and bans vs the risk of illegal lending. It's a non-trivial issue, which makes for better discussions than rah-rah rallies. I was asking someone involved in credit unions how they can afford to charge lower interest to people at high risk - she argues that because they're very local people know the applicant or his surroundings and can make more finely-tuned judgments, and there's more peer pressure to repay than with Wonga, who are seen as fair game who have priced in a possible default.
    Credit unions do nothing special: just stick to the old mantras of banking.

    "Look at the borrower, not the asset"

    and

    "Lend short, borrow long"

    Do that and you'll be fine as a banker. Just don't expect an exciting life! Banking should be boring, almost a utility (with good customer service and very reasonable prices, of course!)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Divvie, come on. Has any SNP poster here ever criticised Salmond? Even those of us (almost everyone, it seems) considered 'PB Tories' have almost all criticised Cameron.

    I agree there's a difference between not saying something critical and being relentlessly positive, but when every SNP poster has never criticised Salmond that is a pattern.

    Reminds me a bit of Labour. Very good at loyalty/discipline (although, in the SNP's defence, you've never ruined the economy to the tune of about a trillion pounds).
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I particularly liked:

    "how long did it take to train your dog to do its own signature?"

    "Does Harry think a dog opening a bank account impinges on animal rights?"

    "As a 1st year history student, what advise do you have for re-writing the past?"
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    On topic: The premise is wrong. You can still be the 'greenest government ever' and change the mix of policies to reduce the direct effect on household budgets of the the various taxes and levies. Some of those policies look pretty inefficient to me, so there may well be room for reducing the taxes/levies without compromising on the strategic goals.

    More generally, though, I think the Tories' response to Miliband snake-oil has been wrong. It is crystal-clear what Ed Miliband is doing; he's smart enough to have realised that the public no longer believe in the magic-money tree of freebies doled out by the government, out of some apparently infinite pool of money, as Gordon Brown pretended could be done. So, instead, he's offering them freebies which he claims can be confiscated with zero economic impact from a mythical set of predator capitalists - bankers, electricity companies who have the temerity to pay dividends, employers who don't pay a 'living wage', the bastards.

    The Tories shouldn't play this game on this fantasy territory. They can never win in a competition which comes down to who is best at making false promises to give out toy-town money, and shouldn't try. They should focus on their strengths of financial rectitude, attracting investment, balanced growth, improving public-sector productivity, getting education, immigration and welfare back towards sanity. PMQs yesterday may have been a clear win for Miliband in the House, but the main story was about Cameron's 'con-man' jibe. Unparliamentary though it might be, it's the message he'll want to, and should, get across; it has the great virtue amongst political messages of being true.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,260
    edited October 2013



    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies

    It's a Miliband proposal (proceeds to go to credit unions). I've got Stella Creasy as my first post-selection speaker in Broxtowe on Saturday - we're interested in hearing the arguments on taxes and bans vs the risk of illegal lending. It's a non-trivial issue, which makes for better discussions than rah-rah rallies. I was asking someone involved in credit unions how they can afford to charge lower interest to people at high risk - she argues that because they're very local people know the applicant or his surroundings and can make more finely-tuned judgments, and there's more peer pressure to repay than with Wonga, who are seen as fair game who have priced in a possible default.
    Good plan by Ed.

    As part of my contribution to the Big Society, I volunteer a few hours a week, helping the families of prisoners deal with the consequences of their loved ones being in prison.

    Payday loan companies behaviour is alarming and worrying, especially their rollover facilities.

    Where a loan of £400 can mean repaying close to 1500quid within a year.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    GIN1138 said:

    Charles said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Oh another believer in the magic money tree .
    "Green taxes" were always sold to the public as being cost neutral?

    Given they apparently don't cost or raise anything for the Chancellor, the economic boost that should be achieved by reducing the burden on energy costs may finish up creating a lot more money than is lost?

    Another magic money tree believer . Let us cut every single tax it will boost the economy and magically create loads of money out of thin air .
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,423
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    @Tim

    You still going on about PMQ's 24hrs later? Don't you think you might be just a little OTT about Ed's victory?

    Oborne draws attention to the entire Tory election strategy being based around Strong Dave vs Weak Ed.

    I think he's right to spot the rather obvious flaw in that don't you?

    And it's not just yesterday, this has been going on since Dave foolishly recalled parliament while simultaneously trying to get his trunks off on Polzeath beach and fire off his missiles.

    Perhaps, but ever since 2007 when Oborne (and Heffer for that matter) jumped into the "Gordon Brown Political Giant" camp, I struggle to take him seriously.

    Oborne was convinced Brown would call an election in 2007 and win a landslide - He seems to change his opinions with the prevailing wind.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,311
    edited October 2013

    Mr. Divvie, come on. Has any SNP poster here ever criticised Salmond? Even those of us (almost everyone, it seems) considered 'PB Tories' have almost all criticised Cameron.

    I agree there's a difference between not saying something critical and being relentlessly positive, but when every SNP poster has never criticised Salmond that is a pattern.

    Reminds me a bit of Labour. Very good at loyalty/discipline (although, in the SNP's defence, you've never ruined the economy to the tune of about a trillion pounds).

    As I've pointed out previously this is a right-of-centre comfort zone, people find it easier to criticise their own lot in such comfort zones. However even in such non-threatening tepidity, there are still PB Tories who'll never utter a word agin' Cameron, and indeed are never happier than when burnishing their icon.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Than ks all for the comments on ecotherapy. I'm conscious of two personal biases - I tend to dislike being outdoors (hayfever etc.) and I'm wary of fashionable alternative therapies. But clearly it helps some and as several of you have said it's not expensive.
    Charles said:


    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Ah, you're one of those nutty pseudo-Keynesian debt deniers I read about? - the debt's going up a bit less fast, it's time to spend, spend! Tsk.

    That's a joke. But there's a more serious point. It's a curious feature of today's politics that Conservatives feel they've proved they're jolly austere so can move on to discuss tax cuts, while Labour tries to find ways to do popular things that don't cost money (the price freeze is a good example). The push to bring down the debt (sic) level at all costs has just evaporated.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,423
    edited October 2013

    GIN1138 said:

    Charles said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Oh another believer in the magic money tree .
    "Green taxes" were always sold to the public as being cost neutral?

    Given they apparently don't cost or raise anything for the Chancellor, the economic boost that should be achieved by reducing the burden on energy costs may finish up creating a lot more money than is lost?

    Another magic money tree believer . Let us cut every single tax it will boost the economy and magically create loads of money out of thin air .
    Mark, "green taxes" don't raise any money for the government, so cutting them shouldn't cost any money either?

    Or have the politicians been lying to us about how much they are getting from these taxes over the past decade? ;)



  • It's a Miliband proposal (proceeds to go to credit unions). I've got Stella Creasy as my first post-selection speaker in Broxtowe on Saturday - we're interested in hearing the arguments on taxes and bans vs the risk of illegal lending. It's a non-trivial issue, which makes for better discussions than rah-rah rallies. I was asking someone involved in credit unions how they can afford to charge lower interest to people at high risk - she argues that because they're very local people know the applicant or his surroundings and can make more finely-tuned judgments, and there's more peer pressure to repay than with Wonga, who are seen as fair game who have priced in a possible default.

    If credit unions are so good (I've worked with them in Kenya, but not in the UK), why do people use Wonga?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Oh another believer in the magic money tree .
    Not at all.

    The CofE has made certain projections about the likely deficit to the market. If he thinks the deficit will be lower he can (a) deliver a better than projected results (b) make additional spending commitments so that he delivers on the target or (c) cut taxes so that he delivers the target.

    In my view (a) should be a primary objective, but I have no problem with using some of the available flex to absorb the cost of certain green costs. This effectively delivers a very visible cost of living reduction by eliminating a highly regressive tax and paying for it out of general funds (which are raised on a much more progressive basis).

    If he doesn't believe that the deficit is going to undershoot, then you are right to say that he shouldn't absorb the costs unless he is going to fund it from elsewhere in the budget. There is no "magic money tree"
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quite.

    "The local MP, Eric Joyce, directly blames McCluskey’s aggressive political strategy: "Unite’s overriding problem is that its leadership has chosen to put politics, pseudo-ideology and career self-interest above the interests of Unite members. Unite has completely lost it focus; it’s raison d’être even … the shutdown at Grangemouth, and the risk to the future of Scotland’s largest industrial site, is the consequence."

    The union itself has responded with characteristic moderation to news of the plant’s imminent closure: "Ineos is waging a campaign of fear against its employees," said a Unite statement. "It is attacking the workers’ union, Unite, and their representatives. This climate of fear has been created to try to force working men and women into signing away their rights and the pensions for which they have saved all their working lives. 

This is a company that is out of control. This is holding Scotland to ransom."

    And so the Grangemouth narrative is set. A militant union and its bombastic general secretary are getting their just desserts. Len McCluskey has pushed his luck too far, and the brave employer, Ineos, has finally called his bluff. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242855/grangemouth-closure-len-mccluskey-seems-the-obvious-villain-but-take-a-closer-look/
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    "The Tories shouldn't play this game on this fantasy territory. They can never win in a competition which comes down to who is best at making false promises to give out toy-town money, and shouldn't try. "

    You do know they are going to "cut energy bills" and make the nasty things disappear into general taxation with some fantasy "savings", right?

    Good morning, tim.

    Perhaps you can identify for me who justified the Climate Change Levy on the following basis:

    All revenue raised through the levy is recycled back to business through a 0.3 per cent cut in employers’ national insurance contributions, introduced at the same time as the levy, and through support for energy efficiency and low carbon technologies.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies

    It's a Miliband proposal (proceeds to go to credit unions). I've got Stella Creasy as my first post-selection speaker in Broxtowe on Saturday - we're interested in hearing the arguments on taxes and bans vs the risk of illegal lending. It's a non-trivial issue, which makes for better discussions than rah-rah rallies. I was asking someone involved in credit unions how they can afford to charge lower interest to people at high risk - she argues that because they're very local people know the applicant or his surroundings and can make more finely-tuned judgments, and there's more peer pressure to repay than with Wonga, who are seen as fair game who have priced in a possible default.
    Good plan by Ed.

    As part of my contribution to the Big Society, I volunteer a few hours a week, helping the families of prisoners deal with the consequences of their loved ones being in prison.

    Payday loan companies behaviour is alarming and worrying, especially their rollover facilities.

    Where a loan of £400 can mean repaying close to 1500quid within a year.
    I could see limiting the ability to offer roll-overs would be a possible option, although you need to ensure that people don't just jump from one provider to the next
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671

    Unite union leader joins Grangemouth talks
    The head of the Unite union, Len McCluskey, has arrived at the Grangemouth plant to join local union leaders in the talks on the future of the petrochemical plant and oil refinery.

    He denied that his appearance was an admission that his union had failed its members over the dispute, insisting he was "here to save the plant."

    http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-10-23/grangemouth-oil-refinery-talks/

    Given they will have to do a humiliating total climbdown and accept all conditions , it is fitting it is McCluskey who has to prostrate himself at the feet of the management. Maybe make them think twice about rubbishing employers with their banks and customers etc , whoever thought that was great negotiating point needs their head examined.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    Than ks all for the comments on ecotherapy. I'm conscious of two personal biases - I tend to dislike being outdoors (hayfever etc.) and I'm wary of fashionable alternative therapies. But clearly it helps some and as several of you have said it's not expensive.

    Charles said:


    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Ah, you're one of those nutty pseudo-Keynesian debt deniers I read about? - the debt's going up a bit less fast, it's time to spend, spend! Tsk.

    That's a joke. But there's a more serious point. It's a curious feature of today's politics that Conservatives feel they've proved they're jolly austere so can move on to discuss tax cuts, while Labour tries to find ways to do popular things that don't cost money (the price freeze is a good example). The push to bring down the debt (sic) level at all costs has just evaporated.

    I am not up-to-date with ecotherapy.

    But the role of sunlight in the prevention of depression is well known.In Seasonal Affective Disorder(where people become depressed during the darker winter months)which is more common in Scandinavian countries,Iceland and Greenland they suggest Bright Light Therapy to compensate for the lack of sunlight and it`s supposed to work.
  • Mr. Dickson, Confucius say: show me a post where you criticised Salmond before accusing others of sycophancy :p

    Confucius also say, big difference between @rse crawling and not beating politician over head with stick; @rse crawler always @rse crawler though.
    Dave may need this piece of advice: 'Confucius say: Man who go to bed with problem in his mind wake up with solution in his hand'.
  • I'm disgusted - Hodges needs to be sacked! This entire article fails to blame Ed Miliband at any point despite the headline naturally leading us to expect that, this is surely impossible and therefore proves Dan has lost his way. Time for Ian Holloway to take his place.

    Grangemouth closure: Len McCluskey seems the obvious villain. But take a closer look…

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242855/grangemouth-closure-len-mccluskey-seems-the-obvious-villain-but-take-a-closer-look/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Than ks all for the comments on ecotherapy. I'm conscious of two personal biases - I tend to dislike being outdoors (hayfever etc.) and I'm wary of fashionable alternative therapies. But clearly it helps some and as several of you have said it's not expensive.

    Charles said:


    Given the deficit is likely to undershoot this year rather than tax cuts or a pretty spending bauble they can just absorb the cost.

    Ah, you're one of those nutty pseudo-Keynesian debt deniers I read about? - the debt's going up a bit less fast, it's time to spend, spend! Tsk.

    That's a joke. But there's a more serious point. It's a curious feature of today's politics that Conservatives feel they've proved they're jolly austere so can move on to discuss tax cuts, while Labour tries to find ways to do popular things that don't cost money (the price freeze is a good example). The push to bring down the debt (sic) level at all costs has just evaporated.

    I think what you are missing is that the tories have set some pretty aggressive targets (which the market appears to believe they will achieve). If they are going to do better than expected then they have a choice as to what they do with the flex. I think that a model whereby they bank a good chunk of the outperformance (say two-thirds) but offer some targeted improvements in the cost of living such as personal allowances or shifting green taxes into the general budget, is not an unreasonable approach.
  • ...or with latest green fu<kwittery in mind: 'Confucius say: Man who put penis in biscuit barrel must be fu<king crackers!'.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Plato said:

    Quite.

    "The local MP, Eric Joyce, directly blames McCluskey’s aggressive political strategy: "Unite’s overriding problem is that its leadership has chosen to put politics, pseudo-ideology and career self-interest above the interests of Unite members. Unite has completely lost it focus; it’s raison d’être even … the shutdown at Grangemouth, and the risk to the future of Scotland’s largest industrial site, is the consequence."

    The union itself has responded with characteristic moderation to news of the plant’s imminent closure: "Ineos is waging a campaign of fear against its employees," said a Unite statement. "It is attacking the workers’ union, Unite, and their representatives. This climate of fear has been created to try to force working men and women into signing away their rights and the pensions for which they have saved all their working lives. 

This is a company that is out of control. This is holding Scotland to ransom."

    And so the Grangemouth narrative is set. A militant union and its bombastic general secretary are getting their just desserts. Len McCluskey has pushed his luck too far, and the brave employer, Ineos, has finally called his bluff. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242855/grangemouth-closure-len-mccluskey-seems-the-obvious-villain-but-take-a-closer-look/

    I agree Unite have overplayed their hand and are now running cap in hand to Ineos.Let`s hope it works.
  • 'Confucius say: Man who farts in church must sit in own pew'
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Hodges take on Grangemouth:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100242855/grangemouth-closure-len-mccluskey-seems-the-obvious-villain-but-take-a-closer-look/

    I expect the usual denunciation from our friends on the left......or not.......
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,671

    On topic Vote blue and get your taxes cut will gain more votes than Vote Blue, go Green

    But what taxes would the Conservatives put up to replace the Government Income from green taxes on fuel ... or have they just taken over Brown's money tree and abandoned fiscal responsibility
    I'd like to see a tax on payday loan companies
    and how much would that raise compared to the amount raised in green taxes on fuel ?
    Not enough. It is one element of compensatory tax increases.

    Wonga alone made 80million profit last year.

    Taxing them at 98% would be a good start.
    Considering the banks are almost as bad and at times charge the same or higher rates , it should be the banks and individual bankers who make obscene bonuses that are forced to pay a tax , not just small fry like Wonga.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Divvie,

    Cameron is a tool, Ed is a soft, conniving cry-baby, Clegg is an empty suit, Farage is a snake oil salesman, and Salmond is a thwarted Labourite.

    See, it's easy.

    Mind you, they do make it easy at times.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. Palmer, I'm also generally sceptical of so-called alternative medicine, but this may simply be correcting (as it were) a change in human behaviour. Our natural state (without technology) is basically to be an outdoors, ground-dwelling (mostly) ape. Being indoors for prolonged periods may very well cause a little bit of low-level anxiety to people, whereas being outdoors gives you fresh air, nice scenery, and often a delightful companion (such as a hound, or, less delightfully, another human).
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