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  • "We must show we have a heart and a conscience."

    It's damning stuff.
  • Just a note to add my condolences to Rod for his loss. Very sorry to hear your news.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @SO
    "Those vans did everything they were supposed to do."

    Then they must have used a Labour supporter to advise them
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @RodCrosby - condolences on your loss - a jolly respectable innings, but a shock just the same.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,477
    RodCrosby said:

    Two great threads that I'd normally get stuck into (this and Richard Nabavi's). But sadly my father passed away suddenly today, aged 85...

    I am sorry to hear that, Rod. My condolences.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    RichardTyndall Agree about the green taxes, promoting nuclear will also open up energy supplies hopefully leading to more choice and reduced costs
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Very sorry to hear Rod Crosby's news. My father died 23 years ago and I still miss him every day.
  • Pulpstar said:

    tim said:

    Jesus Christ.

    STAR: 'Maddie' found in Ireland #tomor'rowspaperstodayistwo #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/GiTV4Mro8r

    Is every missing girl named Madeleine ?
    There's a family just moved in down the road from us. The parents are both dark haired, yet they have a couple of blonde kids. I'm calling the police, first thing in the morning, see if I can claim a reward, or something.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,688
    HYUFD said:

    Tim Head to head US presidential polls are normally right, although of course you are also right we do not have a presidential system. But Callaghan is the only example in recent decades of the favoured PM losing the general election, and had he called an election in 1978 he would probably have won

    Sean F Agree on decontamination

    I have to say I'm impressed at the way the GOP leaves no stone unturned in it's determination to lose elections it could win. The party ought to be on 49/50 Senate seats now, had it selected adequate candidates.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited October 2013

    Apologies. Should have read half a dozen worse PMs:

    Brown, Blair, Thatcher, Wilson (2nd time around), Heath,

    Ok, so 5 rather than 6...



    tim said:

    @foxinsox

    "I was born less than 50 years ago and can think of half a dozen worse MPs than John Major."

    Jeremy Hunt
    David Laws
    Chloe Smith
    Margaret Moran
    David Tredinnick
    IDS

    Dead easy.

    Eden?

    And that's without going way back and going for someone like Archibald Primrose (PM for 13 months, horses he owned won the derby twice in that time).
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    If only 'she' was found in the town of Lucan as well.

    https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Lucan&hl=en&ll=53.355572,-6.45155&spn=0.089136,0.264187&sll=55.883881,-3.500648&sspn=0.021037,0.066047&hnear=Lucan,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&t=m&z=13
    tim said:

    Jesus Christ.

    STAR: 'Maddie' found in Ireland #tomor'rowspaperstodayistwo #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/GiTV4Mro8r

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574

    Pulpstar said:

    tim said:

    Jesus Christ.

    STAR: 'Maddie' found in Ireland #tomor'rowspaperstodayistwo #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/GiTV4Mro8r

    Is every missing girl named Madeleine ?
    There's a family just moved in down the road from us. The parents are both dark haired, yet they have a couple of blonde kids. I'm calling the police, first thing in the morning, see if I can claim a reward, or something.

    Make sure you call up the Star, or the Express too.
  • Roger said:

    @SO
    "Those vans did everything they were supposed to do."

    Then they must have used a Labour supporter to advise them

    I must admit that even the vans seem sane compared to the idiocy that is the phone texts to illegal immigrants telling them to go home. I am used to government policies from all sides being pretty shambolic but this one is out on its own in its crass stupidity.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited October 2013
    I'm sure there are some in his party who are pissed off because he won in '92 and had to clean his party's economic mess.

    Imagine what would have happened if Kinnock had won narrowly or led a minority government with the ERM blowing up in his face.
    HYUFD said:

    Roger/Frank Booth Major left a golden economic legacy and a balanced budget which Labour squandered and as a grammar school boy himself knew something about social mobility, he was not a great PM, but he did a reasonable job overall, including only going to war against Iraq in 1990 with a UN coalition. In any case, I don't think he is really undermining Cameron, the two get on and Major backed him for leader, he just has some understanding of the plight of the elderly spinster faced with huge gas prices this winter

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @HUYFD

    "he was not a great PM, but he did a reasonable job overall"

    It is one of the first responsibilities of a party leader to keep their party together. Under his leadership the Tories became one of the most shambolic parties in living memory. What's more if his achievements were all you say how could he have lost so comprehensively in '97?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting comments by Sir John Major on the one-off windfall tax, as the last Tory leader to win an election it seems he is more in touch with public feeling at the moment than the Coalition given the huge rise in prices and the large profits made by energy firms

    Every time I see this moaning about large profits by energy firms I get the urge to point out that the profit taken by the energy firms averages 5% of turnover.

    That is the same amount as the government takes in VAT. But the government then takes an additional 6% of gas bills and 11% of electricity bills in green levies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24238708

    So that is a total of 11% and 17% respectively that the government takes from our gas and electricity bills. It is the government who are 'overcharging'. Perhaps they should look at cutting that part of the bill before they start attacking the much smaller proportion that makes up profits.
    No. There is a difference. The "formula" agreed with the Regulator effectively gives a guarantee ! What kind of market force are they subjected to, if risk is effectively taken out ?
    Even the dreadful banks or for that matter any other capitalist venture have to contend with risk and the prospect of losses and bankruptcy. Refineries ?

    Basically, being an energy provider in the UK today is to get a licence to print money. I have always wondered why we can't have our own company's running the show.

    Then again, we do not even own our football clubs. Such is the success of British capitalism !
    I was in China a week ago, and probably 3/4 of the cars are German [ many made in China, of course ]. But the Chinese are bringing out their own. Roewe, which suspiciously looks like the defunct Rover. Indeed it is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    SeanF The Tea Party is now holding the GOP brand hostage in the way Militant did with Labour in the eighties
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tim Head to head US presidential polls are normally right, although of course you are also right we do not have a presidential system. But Callaghan is the only example in recent decades of the favoured PM losing the general election, and had he called an election in 1978 he would probably have won

    Sean F Agree on decontamination

    I have to say I'm impressed at the way the GOP leaves no stone unturned in it's determination to lose elections it could win. The party ought to be on 49/50 Senate seats now, had it selected adequate candidates.
    Almost as funny was the sequence of favourites for the GOP nomination last time out. I mean ... Cain and his 999 plan?!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    old Labour A Kinnock premiership would have been a disaster, had Major lost Heseltine or Portillo may have won in 1997
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tim said:

    Jesus Christ.

    STAR: 'Maddie' found in Ireland #tomor'rowspaperstodayistwo #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/GiTV4Mro8r

    Is every missing girl named Madeleine ?
    There's a family just moved in down the road from us. The parents are both dark haired, yet they have a couple of blonde kids. I'm calling the police, first thing in the morning, see if I can claim a reward, or something.

    Make sure you call up the Star, or the Express too.
    Wouldn't the Mail pay more money ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    Roger Even Jesus Christ could not have kept John Redwood, Bill Cash, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine together from 1992-1997. He lost because the Tories had been in for longer than any peacetime government in modern history and people wanted a change and because Blair had stolen most of their policies, his historic 1992 victory was far more of an achievement than his 1997 loss can be attributed to him
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Potentially grim news on Grangemouth:

    However, one industry analyst said the petrochemicals plant was not internationally competitive and was "very unlikely" to attract any buyers.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/468efff4-3b43-11e3-87fa-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2iURGSt9R
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    tim said:

    Working class revolt in the Tory Party.

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 2m
    .@halfon4harlowMP tells @BBCWorldTonight "a windfall tax as part of a package of measures on NRG companies...is the right thing to do"

    Whatever Osborne and Dave do now they'll look like they were shoved into doing it

    Let's say Osborne does indeed impose a windfall tax on the energy companies ? So what would the PBTories do ?
  • surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting comments by Sir John Major on the one-off windfall tax, as the last Tory leader to win an election it seems he is more in touch with public feeling at the moment than the Coalition given the huge rise in prices and the large profits made by energy firms

    Every time I see this moaning about large profits by energy firms I get the urge to point out that the profit taken by the energy firms averages 5% of turnover.

    That is the same amount as the government takes in VAT. But the government then takes an additional 6% of gas bills and 11% of electricity bills in green levies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24238708

    So that is a total of 11% and 17% respectively that the government takes from our gas and electricity bills. It is the government who are 'overcharging'. Perhaps they should look at cutting that part of the bill before they start attacking the much smaller proportion that makes up profits.
    No. There is a difference. The "formula" agreed with the Regulator effectively gives a guarantee ! What kind of market force are they subjected to, if risk is effectively taken out ?
    Even the dreadful banks or for that matter any other capitalist venture have to contend with risk and the prospect of losses and bankruptcy. Refineries ?

    Basically, being an energy provider in the UK today is to get a licence to print money. I have always wondered why we can't have our own company's running the show.

    Then again, we do not even own our football clubs. Such is the success of British capitalism !
    I was in China a week ago, and probably 3/4 of the cars are German [ many made in China, of course ]. But the Chinese are bringing out their own. Roewe, which suspiciously looks like the defunct Rover. Indeed it is.
    Garbage, any business should be able to make a reasonable profit and 5% is not excessive. What is excessive is the huge amount being taken by the government in taxes. According to the ONS in 2010 environmental taxes and levies provided the treasury with over £40 billion. If we are worried about energy prices then that is where our anger should be directed.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/environmental/environmental-accounts/2011/environmental-taxes.html
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Potentially grim news on Grangemouth:

    However, one industry analyst said the petrochemicals plant was not internationally competitive and was "very unlikely" to attract any buyers.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/468efff4-3b43-11e3-87fa-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2iURGSt9R

    Apparently, 10 more refineries could shut down in Europe as it is awash with "cheap" gasoline.

    Market forces. Something our energy providers are not accustomed to.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Thanks for the condolences, chums. It was unexpected. I last saw him at about 8.50pm last night and he was in fine fettle. We discovered the body today, and from the circumstances it appears that he collapsed no more than 10-15 minutes after I left him last night.

    Derek had a adventurous life, first in Bootle during the War, bombed out, appointed aged 13 dog-catcher to the Borough (rounding up stray animals that would otherwise gnaw on bomb victims), witnessing the carnage of bomb-victims being dug out.

    In 1950, aged 21 he and his brother made international news when they commandeered a tug to rescue the liner Clan Sinclair, which was threatened with destruction by a warehouse fire in Gladstone Dock.

    Away to sea for 15 years, ship's engineer on the Empress boats and the Reina del Pacifico. Caught up in the revolution in Buenos Aires in 1956, brawls in Los Angeles, frostbite in Montreal... A continuous 3 year stint on the Amazon, shifting timber from Belem to Manaus. Married in 1962, obtaining a shore job, first as building engineer of the American Embassy in Grosvenor Square, then for many years working for Commercial Union.

    Shortlisted as Labour candidate for the Bootle constituency in 1978.

    On taking early retirement, he got bored, so ran away to sea again, aged 61... European waters, this time. Amsterdam, The Hague, Hamburg.

    Aged 65, he decided to buy a broken down pile in the middle of nowhere on the Isle of Man, and "do it up", a task which he finally admitted defeat to aged 80, and returned to the UK to spend his final years in sheltered accommodation, which he loved. Still driving (on a forged Manx licence which knocked 10 years off his age).

    Given 2 years to live in 1994, 15 years later received a letter from his surgeon informing him he was to be written-up in the medical journals as the world's longest-surviving patient of that rare form of cancer.

    A character, who I'll miss dearly...
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting comments by Sir John Major on the one-off windfall tax, as the last Tory leader to win an election it seems he is more in touch with public feeling at the moment than the Coalition given the huge rise in prices and the large profits made by energy firms

    Every time I see this moaning about large profits by energy firms I get the urge to point out that the profit taken by the energy firms averages 5% of turnover.

    That is the same amount as the government takes in VAT. But the government then takes an additional 6% of gas bills and 11% of electricity bills in green levies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24238708

    So that is a total of 11% and 17% respectively that the government takes from our gas and electricity bills. It is the government who are 'overcharging'. Perhaps they should look at cutting that part of the bill before they start attacking the much smaller proportion that makes up profits.
    Perhaps we should have an "emergency untax", where they reduce government's spending?
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    @Rod

    Sorry for your loss.
  • Roger said:

    @SO
    "Those vans did everything they were supposed to do."

    Then they must have used a Labour supporter to advise them

    I must admit that even the vans seem sane compared to the idiocy that is the phone texts to illegal immigrants telling them to go home. I am used to government policies from all sides being pretty shambolic but this one is out on its own in its crass stupidity.
    I feel an irregular verb coming on:

    My party has pilot schemes.
    Your party has gimmicks.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,477
    Major was undermined by Thatcher and IDS and Redwood and other loony tunes and the rest of the party were feeling guilty about throwing out Thatcher and never gave him the support he needed. He made mistakes too.

    But I don't suppose any alternative would have fared much better. He is a reminder of a form of Toryism which seems to have been forgotten in the rush to worship the free market, a Toryism that understands that it is there to serve people not an ideology, something which today's politicians would do well to remember.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SMukesh said:

    So only one person went home after the `Go Home` vans campaign and that too after reading about the campaign in the Guardian.

    Perhaps if the government had taken an ad out in the Guardian,they might have doubled that figure.

    Those vans did everything they were supposed to do.

    Yep. It stabilised the UKIP vote !
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,734

    Roger said:

    @SO
    "Those vans did everything they were supposed to do."

    Then they must have used a Labour supporter to advise them

    I must admit that even the vans seem sane compared to the idiocy that is the phone texts to illegal immigrants telling them to go home. I am used to government policies from all sides being pretty shambolic but this one is out on its own in its crass stupidity.
    I feel an irregular verb coming on:

    My party has pilot schemes.
    Your party has gimmicks.
    This scheme did seem particularly ill considered...but that is a worthy point.
  • Roger said:

    That he was one of the worst Prime Ministers in any of our of our lifetimes raises the question could Cameron be worse?

    Cobblers! At least Gentleman John can point to the National Lottery and the salvation of sterling as two fine achievements of his brief tenure. What did New Labour manage after what seems like a lifetime? Iraq, financial catastrophe and Britain reduced to having one of the worst educational records in the western world. Labour are a stain on the nation. No wonder Miliband tries to pretend that the Blair/Brown years never happened.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 It all depends on the UKIP vote, if the Tories can squeeze enough of the UKIP vote and add a few moderate LDs they get to 40%, thus Miliband's 35% strategy will not be enough of a 'time for change' vote to see him win and it will be the Tories who get their chance at a majority, albeit probably even more narrowly than Major won in 1992

    Miliband now leads Cameron among UKIP voters.
    All that inauthentic posturing by Dave managed to fail in detoxing the Tory brand but managed to alienate those he needed to win back.

    Of course we hate Cameron. It doesn't mean we prefer Labour.

    Your party's problem is that despite your assertion that everyone hates Cameron and the Conservatives, you're only slightly better than level-pegging. What does that say about Labour?
    It says that Labour suffered a crushing 29% defeat in 2010 and are back in the game.
    It took the Tories a decade after 1997 and their brand is still dog shite.

    Well, I suppose that makes Labour's brand horse shite then. And probably worse than that, by May 2015. It doesn't seem likely that more people will vote Labour than Conservative at that point.
    You may well be correct. But if Labour and the Conservatives end up with equal votes, Labour wins !

    Only, the FPTP can mange that. Remind me please, the system the Tories prefer. On the other hand.............
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    RodCrosby Sounds a fascinating character, well worthy of an obituary!

    Cyclefree Agree
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting comments by Sir John Major on the one-off windfall tax, as the last Tory leader to win an election it seems he is more in touch with public feeling at the moment than the Coalition given the huge rise in prices and the large profits made by energy firms

    Every time I see this moaning about large profits by energy firms I get the urge to point out that the profit taken by the energy firms averages 5% of turnover.

    That is the same amount as the government takes in VAT. But the government then takes an additional 6% of gas bills and 11% of electricity bills in green levies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24238708

    So that is a total of 11% and 17% respectively that the government takes from our gas and electricity bills. It is the government who are 'overcharging'. Perhaps they should look at cutting that part of the bill before they start attacking the much smaller proportion that makes up profits.
    No. There is a difference. The "formula" agreed with the Regulator effectively gives a guarantee ! What kind of market force are they subjected to, if risk is effectively taken out ?
    Even the dreadful banks or for that matter any other capitalist venture have to contend with risk and the prospect of losses and bankruptcy. Refineries ?

    Basically, being an energy provider in the UK today is to get a licence to print money. I have always wondered why we can't have our own company's running the show.
    .
    Garbage, any business should be able to make a reasonable profit and 5% is not excessive. What is excessive is the huge amount being taken by the government in taxes. According to the ONS in 2010 environmental taxes and levies provided the treasury with over £40 billion. If we are worried about energy prices then that is where our anger should be directed.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/environmental/environmental-accounts/2011/environmental-taxes.html
    How much of the green levies get put back into insulation schemes etc to reduce people's energy bills?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,734
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 It all depends on the UKIP vote, if the Tories can squeeze enough of the UKIP vote and add a few moderate LDs they get to 40%, thus Miliband's 35% strategy will not be enough of a 'time for change' vote to see him win and it will be the Tories who get their chance at a majority, albeit probably even more narrowly than Major won in 1992

    Miliband now leads Cameron among UKIP voters.
    All that inauthentic posturing by Dave managed to fail in detoxing the Tory brand but managed to alienate those he needed to win back.

    Of course we hate Cameron. It doesn't mean we prefer Labour.

    Your party's problem is that despite your assertion that everyone hates Cameron and the Conservatives, you're only slightly better than level-pegging. What does that say about Labour?
    It says that Labour suffered a crushing 29% defeat in 2010 and are back in the game.
    It took the Tories a decade after 1997 and their brand is still dog shite.

    Well, I suppose that makes Labour's brand horse shite then. And probably worse than that, by May 2015. It doesn't seem likely that more people will vote Labour than Conservative at that point.
    You may well be correct. But if Labour and the Conservatives end up with equal votes, Labour wins !

    Only, the FPTP can mange that. Remind me please, the system the Tories prefer. On the other hand.............
    I will never get tired of that one, it's like the perfect and true political joke.

    Night all.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,047
    @Rod

    Nice story.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Cyclefree, totally agree. That Major presided over that level of turmoil in the Conservative party after Thatcher stood down was quite a feat, but he kept the party together, just.
    Cyclefree said:

    Major was undermined by Thatcher and IDS and Redwood and other loony tunes and the rest of the party were feeling guilty about throwing out Thatcher and never gave him the support he needed. He made mistakes too.

    But I don't suppose any alternative would have fared much better. He is a reminder of a form of Toryism which seems to have been forgotten in the rush to worship the free market, a Toryism that understands that it is there to serve people not an ideology, something which today's politicians would do well to remember.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,574
    RodCrosby said:

    Thanks for the condolences, chums. It was unexpected. I last saw him at about 8.50pm last night and he was in fine fettle. We discovered the body today, and from the circumstances it appears that he collapsed no more than 10-15 minutes after I left him last night.

    Derek had a adventurous life, first in Bootle during the War, bombed out, appointed aged 13 dog-catcher to the Borough (rounding up stray animals that would otherwise gnaw on bomb victims), witnessing the carnage of bomb-victims being dug out.

    In 1950, aged 21 he and his brother made international news when they commandeered a tug to rescue the liner Clan Sinclair, which was threatened with destruction by a warehouse fire in Gladstone Dock.

    Away to sea for 15 years, ship's engineer on the Empress boats and the Reina del Pacifico. Caught up in the revolution in Buenos Aires in 1956, brawls in Los Angeles, frostbite in Montreal... A continuous 3 year stint on the Amazon, shifting timber from Belem to Manaus. Married in 1962, obtaining a shore job, first as building engineer of the American Embassy in Grosvenor Square, then for many years working for Commercial Union.

    Shortlisted as Labour candidate for the Bootle constituency in 1978.

    On taking early retirement, he got bored, so ran away to sea again, aged 61... European waters, this time. Amsterdam, The Hague, Hamburg.

    Aged 65, he decided to buy a broken down pile in the middle of nowhere on the Isle of Man, and "do it up", a task which he finally admitted defeat to aged 80, and returned to the UK to spend his final years in sheltered accommodation, which he loved. Still driving (on a forged Manx licence which knocked 10 years off his age).

    Given 2 years to live in 1994, 15 years later received a letter from his surgeon informing him he was to be written-up in the medical journals as the world's longest-surviving patient of that rare form of cancer.

    A character, who I'll miss dearly...

    Well he certainly LIVED :)
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    On topic: It depends what the cause of swing-back is. That's somewhat speculative - we have few data points, and we can't do experiments where we re-run elections with different parameters to see what changes - but we have to make some assumption, if we're going to bet successfully.

    My view is that there is no doubt what the cause is: in mid-term, you can be grumpy and tell pollsters you'll vote for the opposition/UKIP/Not vote at all, at zero cost. What's more, in mid-term, the opposition just need to oppose, capitalising on anything which is vaguely unpopular, be it high home-heating prices (2013) or high road fuel prices (2001), and can avoid taking any position on anything difficult.

    Come the election, though, that all changes: it becomes a choice, not an unfocused free-of-charge grump. The opposition needs to come up with some policies and a manifesto, and answer the question 'What would you do instead?'. That inevitably will expose weaknesses in the opposition's position, and also lead to some people discovering they are not so keen after all.

    That being the case, I don't see why 2015 should be any different from previous UK elections. Nor, for that matter, from the German election a few weeks ago. That was swing back to the senior partner in a coalition - big-time.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    corporeal said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting comments by Sir John Major on the one-off windfall tax, as the last Tory leader to win an election it seems he is more in touch with public feeling at the moment than the Coalition given the huge rise in prices and the large profits made by energy firms

    Every time I see this moaning about large profits by energy firms I get the urge to point out that the profit taken by the energy firms averages 5% of turnover.

    That is the same amount as the government takes in VAT. But the government then takes an additional 6% of gas bills and 11% of electricity bills in green levies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24238708

    So that is a total of 11% and 17% respectively that the government takes from our gas and electricity bills. It is the government who are 'overcharging'. Perhaps they should look at cutting that part of the bill before they start attacking the much smaller proportion that makes up profits.
    No. There is a difference. The "formula" agreed with the Regulator effectively gives a guarantee ! What kind of market force are they subjected to, if risk is effectively taken out ?
    Even the dreadful banks or for that matter any other capitalist venture have to contend with risk and the prospect of losses and bankruptcy. Refineries ?

    Basically, being an energy provider in the UK today is to get a licence to print money. I have always wondered why we can't have our own company's running the show.
    .
    Garbage, any business should be able to make a reasonable profit and 5% is not excessive. What is excessive is the huge amount being taken by the government in taxes. According to the ONS in 2010 environmental taxes and levies provided the treasury with over £40 billion. If we are worried about energy prices then that is where our anger should be directed.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/environmental/environmental-accounts/2011/environmental-taxes.html
    How much of the green levies get put back into insulation schemes etc to reduce people's energy bills?
    I think the green levies will be needed to pay for the massive farms of diesel generators that will be needed to keep the national grid going till the new nuke stations are built.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    An informed article about the pressures that face refineries like Grangemouth:

    Europe faces new wave of oil refinery extinctions

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/16/europe-refinery-idUSL6N0I638T20131016
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Rod

    He sounds like a great character. You have an eccentric retirement to live up to.
  • My condolences, Rod. He sounds an amazing character; good that he was still in fine fettle right until the end.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    I really hope that an eleventh hour solution to this dispute can be found, the partial or full closure of Grangemouth would be grim news for the Scots economy. It would also pose another headache for the Scots Government who have just recently set a precedent by taking the troubled Prestwick Airport into public ownership. Listening to Pat Rafferty of Unite, its almost as if he is in denial of the gravity of the situation, or the stakes involved. Depressing.

    Potentially grim news on Grangemouth:

    However, one industry analyst said the petrochemicals plant was not internationally competitive and was "very unlikely" to attract any buyers.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/468efff4-3b43-11e3-87fa-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2iURGSt9R

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Can I just second that.
    HYUFD said:

    RodCrosby Sounds a fascinating character, well worthy of an obituary!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    No messing with Andrew Neil tonight

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 56m
    Thinking of giving up on #Homeland This new series boring.

    James French ‏@JamesF85 55m
    @afneil Fuck off. You do a telly show with Portillo. I think you'll find thats boring.

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 53m
    @JamesF85 And you're blocked foul mouthed little tosser.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    I think Question Time could definitely now do with swapping Dimbleby for Neil, and Election Night too
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited October 2013
    David Davies wants the police to wear cams and mics when interacting with the public due to 'a crisis of ethics'.
    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/87015/the_times_wednesday_23rd_october_2013.html
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Late on the scene as per usual, I send belated condolencies To RodCrosby on the death of his father. From Rods obit he seemed to be quite a guy.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    On topic, coaliton obviously has the potential to change things, but the polling dip after the omnishambles budget and the protest vote defecting to UKIP mid-term, both already partially unwound, look exactly like the kind of thing that would cause a swing back to the party that "lost" those votes.

    The Lib->Lab shift is different though. The voters moved early, and then didn't waver no matter what the news cycle.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    fitalass thanks
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    On topic, coaliton obviously has the potential to change things, but the polling dip after the omnishambles budget and the protest vote defecting to UKIP mid-term, both already partially unwound, look exactly like the kind of thing that would cause a swing back to the party that "lost" those votes.

    The Lib->Lab shift is different though. The voters moved early, and then didn't waver no matter what the news cycle.

    As I've pointed out before LAB is not vulnerable to CON voters returning to the fold because so few 2010 CON voters have actually switched to LAB.

    The LAB figures will fall off if the 2010 LD>LAB switchers change their view poistion and there's little sign of that happening



  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    BBC Scotland - Grampian Police officers in Aberdeenshire wearing body cameras

    "Grampian Police officers in Aberdeenshire are being given access to body-worn video cameras, after they were hailed a success in Aberdeen.

    The force said more than 90% of cases pursued in the first year, using evidence from the cameras, resulted in early guilty pleas.

    They take digital video, and are lighter than a mobile phone.

    Insp John Esson, who is leading the roll-out in Aberdeenshire, said: "The use of these cameras could cut crime.""

    David Davies wants the police to wear cams and mics when interacting with the public due to 'a crisis of ethics'.
    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/87015/the_times_wednesday_23rd_october_2013.html

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    I think Question Time could definitely now do with swapping Dimbleby for Neil, and Election Night too

    Agree compeltely. Dimbleby is passed it and has become a bore. He comes over as not being very interested in politics.,

    Neil is spot on almost all of the time

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    On topic, coaliton obviously has the potential to change things, but the polling dip after the omnishambles budget and the protest vote defecting to UKIP mid-term, both already partially unwound, look exactly like the kind of thing that would cause a swing back to the party that "lost" those votes.

    The Lib->Lab shift is different though. The voters moved early, and then didn't waver no matter what the news cycle.

    As I've pointed out before LAB is not vulnerable to CON voters returning to the fold because so few 2010 CON voters have actually switched to LAB.

    The LAB figures will fall off if the 2010 LD>LAB switchers change their view poistion and there's little sign of that happening

    The thing that Mike forgot to say , is that UKIP are taking lumps out of the Labour vote. Not large lumps, true. But enough to cream off 4%/5% which could hurt in some areas
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983



    Neil is spot on almost all of the time

    Thanks!!!

    ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,519
    OGH Indeed, the Dimblebys were great in their time, and he can still do state occasions and royal events etc, but Neil is now the BBC heavyweight anchor for politics
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Nice picture of our green energy policy at the top of this article -

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10374005/Its-showdown-time-for-our-insane-green-energy-policy.html

    - farms of green-painted diesel generators.

    Shame about those two perfectly good coal power stations that were closed down early on orders from the EU.

    The thing about this is its not in the interests of any section of the political class to make a fuss about this latest bit of insanity: Cameroons for obeying EU orders, Labour for not putting anything in place to cover the shortfall, Libs/Greens for not wanting the public to know wind farms need a reliable carbon burning backup system etc and so the whole political class will keep quiet about it while this country embarks on what i assume is probably the least efficient, most expensive and ironically most polluting energy policy possible.

    (I'm just guessing the last bit based on never having heard of any country running their national grid on 1000s of diesel generators.)
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    MrJones said:

    Nice picture of our green energy policy at the top of this article -

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10374005/Its-showdown-time-for-our-insane-green-energy-policy.html

    - farms of green-painted diesel generators.

    Shame about those two perfectly good coal power stations that were closed down early on orders from the EU.

    The thing about this is its not in the interests of any section of the political class to make a fuss about this latest bit of insanity: Cameroons for obeying EU orders, Labour for not putting anything in place to cover the shortfall, Libs/Greens for not wanting the public to know wind farms need a reliable carbon burning backup system etc and so the whole political class will keep quiet about it while this country embarks on what i assume is probably the least efficient, most expensive and ironically most polluting energy policy possible.

    (I'm just guessing the last bit based on never having heard of any country running their national grid on 1000s of diesel generators.)

    IIUC coal power stations take ages to power up, so I doubt they'd perform the same role as diesel generators that can be started up at a moment's notice if something suddenly shuts down. It may also be the low-CO2 approach, provided you don't have to run them for long.

    This may not even be related to renewables, as you get a bit of notice when the wind is going to drop, but a lot less a nuclear power station suddenly scrams or some transmission lines go down and you can't get power from where you were expecting.

    Also I wouldn't normally say this but since it's Booker we can't completely rule out the possibility that he's discovered the backup generators for somebody's datacenter and got completely the wrong end of the stick.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    On topic, coaliton obviously has the potential to change things, but the polling dip after the omnishambles budget and the protest vote defecting to UKIP mid-term, both already partially unwound, look exactly like the kind of thing that would cause a swing back to the party that "lost" those votes.

    The Lib->Lab shift is different though. The voters moved early, and then didn't waver no matter what the news cycle.

    As I've pointed out before LAB is not vulnerable to CON voters returning to the fold because so few 2010 CON voters have actually switched to LAB.

    The LAB figures will fall off if the 2010 LD>LAB switchers change their view poistion and there's little sign of that happening



    Right, but swingback doesn't have to mean recovery of direct moves from Gov to Opp. In the case of Rod's by-election formulation a lot of it has probably always been Gov to Lib/Other or Gov to No Vote. That still gives you net swing between Gov and Opp, albeit only half as much per voter.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited October 2013

    MrJones said:

    Nice picture of our green energy policy at the top of this article -

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10374005/Its-showdown-time-for-our-insane-green-energy-policy.html

    - farms of green-painted diesel generators.

    Shame about those two perfectly good coal power stations that were closed down early on orders from the EU.

    The thing about this is its not in the interests of any section of the political class to make a fuss about this latest bit of insanity: Cameroons for obeying EU orders, Labour for not putting anything in place to cover the shortfall, Libs/Greens for not wanting the public to know wind farms need a reliable carbon burning backup system etc and so the whole political class will keep quiet about it while this country embarks on what i assume is probably the least efficient, most expensive and ironically most polluting energy policy possible.

    (I'm just guessing the last bit based on never having heard of any country running their national grid on 1000s of diesel generators.)

    IIUC coal power stations take ages to power up, so I doubt they'd perform the same role as diesel generators that can be started up at a moment's notice if something suddenly shuts down. It may also be the low-CO2 approach, provided you don't have to run them for long.

    This may not even be related to renewables, as you get a bit of notice when the wind is going to drop, but a lot less a nuclear power station suddenly scrams or some transmission lines go down and you can't get power from where you were expecting.

    Also I wouldn't normally say this but since it's Booker we can't completely rule out the possibility that he's discovered the backup generators for somebody's datacenter and got completely the wrong end of the stick.
    Well if it's the low CO2 approach then my original point will be wrong and the political class and the BBC won't try and hide it.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    What did New Labour manage after what seems like a lifetime?

    a minimum wage, continuation of the irish peace process, civil partnerships.

    as well as the disasters/disappointments
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Salmond enters tim's black books:

    "Salmond looks to China for new refinery owner"

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/salmond-looks-to-china-for-new-refinery-owner.22496211
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited October 2013
    MrJones said:


    Well if it's the low CO2 approach then my original point will be wrong and the political class and the BBC won't try and hide it.

    If you're wondering how you can run a bunch of diesel generators and still be reducing CO2, look at this comment on the blog Booker got his stuff from:
    Typically, a low rate contributor will be called upon to run around 30 hours a year, medium 50 and only at the high rate does one get a possibility of up to 400 hours, but typically 150 hours.
    http://www.eureferendum.com/forum/yaf_postsm17161_Booker--high-prices-in-STOR.aspx#post17161

    So even if they were to put out - say - twice as much CO2 per hour as an equivalent coal plant, they only do it for one day in 50 or one day in 250.

    Obviously it would be better to get off carbon completely, but while we're waiting for that, the obvious thing to do is to generate as much as you can from renewables when you can, then use fossil fuels to cover the gaps. That's worth doing even if you end up trading per-hour efficiency of the fossil fuels you do burn for the flexibility to turn them on quickly when they're needed.

    The fact that you can do this kind of thing is also one of the reasons why you shouldn't listen to people like (until recently) Booker who seemed to think they were the only people who have noticed that the wind doesn't always blow and tried (successfully, judging by posts on this site) to get badly-informed readers freaking out about power cuts.
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    Like the major supermarket chains making high profits while claiming that the separate stores only make a small profit from their turnover, the power suppliers have set up wholesale companies which buy cheap and can get heavy discounts for bulk and future purchases.

    They can then sell on to the retail part of the company which is "allowed" to make a restricted announced profit margin to keep MP's and customers happy.

    Three guesses anyone, how the executives get their bonuses?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,847
    Edin_Rokz said:

    Like the major supermarket chains making high profits while claiming that the separate stores only make a small profit from their turnover, the power suppliers have set up wholesale companies which buy cheap and can get heavy discounts for bulk and future purchases.

    They can then sell on to the retail part of the company which is "allowed" to make a restricted announced profit margin to keep MP's and customers happy.

    Three guesses anyone, how the executives get their bonuses?

    So Miliband's going to price-controlling supermarkets next, is he?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I was expecting a 'Labour in the forties' thread.........

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/h2jnnj33da/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-221013.pdf

    Let's see what happens in Dunfermline tomorrow.....
  • I was expecting a 'Labour in the forties' thread.........

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/h2jnnj33da/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-221013.pdf

    Let's see what happens in Dunfermline tomorrow.....

    What is interesting is the big disconnect outside of the economy that there is between what those polled see as being the most important issues facing the country and the most important issues facing them and their families. The immigration and asylum gap is striking.


  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    My deepest condolences Rod – By the sounds of it, he was quite a guy.
This discussion has been closed.