Where is OGH finding his "betting that the agreement will be passed by MPs in Q1 2019"? It isn't on BFE or Ladbrokes.
Presumably the bet is on Brexit going ahead on time. That is almost certainly a winner if the deal is passed by MPs, with an added bonus of also winning if we crash out on 29th March.
No, there is a bet that fits this bill, with a hard March deadline, on BFSB
Better odds on the exchange 'UK to leave the EU by the 29/03/2019' market, and with the kicker of No Deal as well.
What far left control of the Labour party has delivered is a relaxed tolerance of anti-Semitism and active support for Brexit. It’s genuinely bizarre that so many members and MPs fail to see what is staring them squarely in the face. Denial is such a powerful force, I guess.
The MPs already know the above, it’s one of the reasons why they don’t like Corbyn. But it’s clear Labour members’ dislike and fear of a return to the agenda pursued by moderates pre Corbyn outweighs any concerns they have about him. It’s been evident now from sometime Corbyn is not on the stop Brexit train, and yet few moderates have managed to win over his supporters.
The point is fast arriving where the so-called moderate Labour MPs will have to decide whether they are man or mouse. Sadly, my money is on 'mouse'.
These MPs know what happened to the SDP. They have moderate politics but rely on the support of activists and members much more left wing than them, and arguably even a core group of voters more left wing than them as well. Really, we need a centrist liberal party. I wouldn’t vote for it but it would stop the resentment between centrist liberals and left wingers and right wingers over who has control over Labour and the Tories. Centrist liberals would also be reliant on members, activists and voters who actually share their politics.
All those PB'ers the other night arguing that Brexit had nothing to do with identity politics, and Curtice says this: "On the other hand, it has often been remarked that the debate about Brexit in Britain is part of a wider resurgence of the ‘politics of identity’ as manifested in everything from the rise of populist anti-immigrant parties in a number of European countries to the (tonally very different) demands for independence in, for example, Scotland and Catalonia"
Edit, also:
Our research strongly supports the claims of Professor Hobolt and her colleagues. Nearly nine in ten members of our panel said that they were either a ‘Remainer’ or a ‘Leaver’, whereas less than two-thirds of them claim to identify with a political party. Meanwhile, no less than 44% say they are a ‘very strong Remainer’ or a ‘very strong Leaver’, whereas only 9% claim to be a very strong supporter of a political party.
What far left control of the Labour party has delivered is a relaxed tolerance of anti-Semitism and active support for Brexit. It’s genuinely bizarre that so many members and MPs fail to see what is staring them squarely in the face. Denial is such a powerful force, I guess.
The MPs already know the above, it’s one of the reasons why they don’t like Corbyn. But it’s clear Labour members’ dislike and fear of a return to the agenda pursued by moderates pre Corbyn outweighs any concerns they have about him. It’s been evident now from sometime Corbyn is not on the stop Brexit train, and yet few moderates have managed to win over his supporters.
The point is fast arriving where the so-called moderate Labour MPs will have to decide whether they are man or mouse. Sadly, my money is on 'mouse'.
These MPs know what happened to the SDP. They have moderate politics but rely on the support of activists and members much more left wing than them, and arguably even a core group of voters more left wing than them as well. Really, we need a centrist liberal party. I wouldn’t vote for it but it would stop the resentment between centrist liberals and left wingers and right wingers over who has control over Labour and the Tories. Centrist liberals would also be reliant on members, activists and voters who actually share their politics.
If only they could look into the future and see that they don't have one, if they stay on board the ship.
Disagree with this. Corbyn would actually secretly wouldn't be unhappy with a No Deal Brexit as it would likely collapse the government and provide a Year Zero for his declarative socialism.
I mean, who knows what Corbyn actually wants (I don't think he knows himself) but if there's an incidental outcome he doesn't enact himself, I'd say it's No Deal rather than the Tory one.
It's interesting how often we see people here commenting at length on Corbyn's economic views. Yet how much has Corbyn ever said, or written, about economic theory? Indeed is he even that interested in domestic economic affairs, having spent most of his life championing matters of foreign affairs?
In reality I suspect McDonnell - who is a Marxist - will be driving their economy policy.
Well, as I said, as far as Corbyn's economics go it's fairly simple (but not very detail orientated). A dislike of the 'neoliberal' status quo (without giving much thought to it) and a belief that socialism as a concept will cure those ills. As such, he's generally promoted or attached himself to whatever ideas tell him he's right about that.
His economic views (or rather lack of them absent his political belief in the essential goodness of socialism) are vital to understanding his approach to Brexit. They explain why he's far more relaxed about the economic consequences of bad outcomes than either the centre-left or even some on the far left who are more deeply engaged with economics - even McDonnell, who is at least aware that it bad Brexit outcomes could overwhelm him as Chancellor. But for Corbyn, there's ways in which even dreadful versions of Brexit are a good thing because it would be (at least to him) a failure of neoliberalism and an opportunity for socialism to save us all.
It would be the biggest comeback since Lazarus. But before MPs are going to retract their opposition, the deal will need to become more popular. There’s no sign of that and no one is really trying to change that.
Any recantation will first come from Leave MPs. They very unwisely expressed themselves in extreme terms. Such a retraction would be extremely humiliating and probably career-ending. But until Leavers backtrack, Remainer MPs will hide behind them seeing this as a route to a fresh referendum.
The deal looks dead as a doornail to me, whatever the party leaders’ public or private wishes.
Aren't you sniffing the wind?
The public mood isn’t changing yet. There are some MPs looking for a way to change their minds but someone has to explain to the public why they should.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I would vote for the deal if I were an MP since, while rancid, it delivers what was campaigned for. But I seem to be in a small minority.
It would be the biggest comeback since Lazarus. But before MPs are going to retract their opposition, the deal will need to become more popular. There’s no sign of that and no one is really trying to change that.
Any recantation will first come from Leave MPs. They very unwisely expressed themselves in extreme terms. Such a retraction would be extremely humiliating and probably career-ending. But until Leavers backtrack, Remainer MPs will hide behind them seeing this as a route to a fresh referendum.
The deal looks dead as a doornail to me, whatever the party leaders’ public or private wishes.
Aren't you sniffing the wind?
The public mood isn’t changing yet. There are some MPs looking for a way to change their minds but someone has to explain to the public why they should.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I would vote for the deal if I were an MP since, while rancid, it delivers what was campaigned for. But I seem to be in a small minority.
The public were never as hostile to the deal as the politicians (partly, I fear, because they imagine it will mean Brexit is 'sorted'). But the ERG has gone very quiet, and suddenly loyal, and the rumours that the DUP will soon be happy (insofar as they are ever capable) are everywhere. If the DUP says the deal is OK, it will provide cover for many anti-EU Tories to climb back on the ship.
If the anti-EU opposition melts away, we are back to counting the number of diehard Tory opponents versus the potential support for the deal from individual opposition MPs.
Remember that May doesn't need to win, first time around, just to do better than any alternative proposition.
It's interesting how often we see people here commenting at length on Corbyn's economic views. Yet how much has Corbyn ever said, or written, about economic theory? Indeed is he even that interested in domestic economic affairs, having spent most of his life championing matters of foreign affairs?
In reality I suspect McDonnell - who is a Marxist - will be driving their economy policy.
AIUI left wing leadership does not live in a particular person but with a leadership group. If that is indeed the case, then Mr Corbyn is accustomed to being relaxed about a divergence between his own views and the view of the leadership group. They would all be entitled to their opinions but agree to get behind the approach decided by the group.
Disagree with this. Corbyn would actually secretly wouldn't be unhappy with a No Deal Brexit as it would likely collapse the government and provide a Year Zero for his declarative socialism.
I mean, who knows what Corbyn actually wants (I don't think he knows himself) but if there's an incidental outcome he doesn't enact himself, I'd say it's No Deal rather than the Tory one.
It's interesting how often we see people here commenting at length on Corbyn's economic views. Yet how much has Corbyn ever said, or written, about economic theory? Indeed is he even that interested in domestic economic affairs, having spent most of his life championing matters of foreign affairs?
In reality I suspect McDonnell - who is a Marxist - will be driving their economy policy.
Well, as I said, as far as Corbyn's economics go it's fairly simple (but not very detail orientated). A dislike of the 'neoliberal' status quo (without giving much thought to it) and a belief that socialism as a concept will cure those ills. As such, he's generally promoted or attached himself to whatever ideas tell him he's right about that.
His economic views (or rather lack of them absent his political belief in the essential goodness of socialism) are vital to understanding his approach to Brexit. They explain why he's far more relaxed about the economic consequences of bad outcomes than either the centre-left or even some on the far left who are more deeply engaged with economics - even McDonnell, who is at least aware that it bad Brexit outcomes could overwhelm him as Chancellor. But for Corbyn, there's ways in which even dreadful versions of Brexit are a good thing because it would be (at least to him) a failure of neoliberalism and an opportunity for socialism to save us all.
I don't think he gives a toss about Brexit, except that he knows that a bad Tory Brexit means that all his Christmases arrive at once. The problem is that the implications of a bad Brexit will lag the achievement of such by some margin, and during the intervening period Labour may come to power.
What far left control of the Labour party has delivered is a relaxed tolerance of anti-Semitism and active support for Brexit. It’s genuinely bizarre that so many members and MPs fail to see what is staring them squarely in the face. Denial is such a powerful force, I guess.
The MPs already know the above, it’s one of the reasons why they don’t like Corbyn. But it’s clear Labour members’ dislike and fear of a return to the agenda pursued by moderates pre Corbyn outweighs any concerns they have about him. It’s been evident now from sometime Corbyn is not on the stop Brexit train, and yet few moderates have managed to win over his supporters.
Seems a fair enough observation. The most distressing thing about the entire Brexit process for the bulk of the PLP - Pro-EU, social democratic, and including a great many former cabinet ministers - must be their feeling of total powerlessness to stop EU membership being prized from their white-knuckled grip. That, coupled with the consequent realisation that none other than Jeremy Corbyn stands as a political titan relative to the whole lot of them. On the single issue that matters to them more than anything else, all they can do is make feeble, impotent wails about how awful it all is, and about how a mythical second referendum could somehow still save the day. It's actually rather sad when you look at it that way.
One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to try and suggest otherwise. I voted Leave and I have an immigrant son in law - who also voted Leave.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Interesting question. Say Turkey wasn't a Muslim country, do you think Vote Leave would have ignored it?
What far left control of the Labour party has delivered is a relaxed tolerance of anti-Semitism and active support for Brexit. It’s genuinely bizarre that so many members and MPs fail to see what is staring them squarely in the face. Denial is such a powerful force, I guess.
The MPs already know the above, it’s one of the reasons why they don’t like Corbyn. But it’s clear Labour members’ dislike and fear of a return to the agenda pursued by moderates pre Corbyn outweighs any concerns they have about him. It’s been evident now from sometime Corbyn is not on the stop Brexit train, and yet few moderates have managed to win over his supporters.
The point is fast arriving where the so-called moderate Labour MPs will have to decide whether they are man or mouse. Sadly, my money is on 'mouse'.
The point arrived a long time ago. They made their choice. A few have dribbled out, but most are going nowhere.
And while Brexit is a big issue and anti-semitism an emotive one (which they argue about how big it is), on pretty much everything else it doesn't seem like the MPs are that unhappy.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Interesting question. Say Turkey wasn't a Muslim country, do you think Vote Leave would have ignored it?
Do you think Turkey was chosen by accident? How sweet.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Interesting question. Say Turkey wasn't a Muslim country, do you think Vote Leave would have ignored it?
Do you think Turkey was chosen by accident? How sweet.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
snip One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
If the comments on Twitter are anything to go by, Corbyn has massively angered a lot of his natural supporters. Some of the comments are something to behold.
What an idiot..... he is pretty much ruling himself out of ever winning an election. He has all the nous of a complete muppet.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Interesting question. Say Turkey wasn't a Muslim country, do you think Vote Leave would have ignored it?
Do you think Turkey was chosen by accident? How sweet.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Interesting question. Say Turkey wasn't a Muslim country, do you think Vote Leave would have ignored it?
Do you think Turkey was chosen by accident? How sweet.
I'd have thought it's population of 80,000,000 might have had something to do with it.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all.
I voted leave, and while I far from agree with the virulence with which Mr Meeks makes this particular point on a regular basis, as I recall saying at the time the Leave campaign did deliberately make it seem a lot more likely than it is that Turkey could be joining the EU. I don't think that is even a controversial point.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
This reads like wishful thinking to me. Corbyn wants power and the only way he can get it is to block May’s deal and then bring her down by forcing a VONC. The Tories are left facing a GE for which they are totally unprepared having failed to deliver Brexit, having abandoned domestic policy and with the same lame duck leader who lost a 20% lead in the polls in a snap GE she called and lost her majority as a result.
While LAB is still in third place in Scotland it has very little chance of winning power.without the support of the SNP
I hope you'll forgive me for that slight modification...
If the comments on Twitter are anything to go by, Corbyn has massively angered a lot of his natural supporters. Some of the comments are something to behold.
What an idiot..... he is pretty much ruling himself out of ever winning an election. He has all the nous of a complete muppet.
Are they going to vote LD instead? Or suck it up if it means getting the Tories out? If it is 'try to renegotiate leave' with Corbyn or 'definitely leave and be ruled by the Tories because of wasted votes on the LDs' which way will such people go?
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Amusingly not just anti semitism but terrorist sympathising Marxists who have espoused violent actions...I’ll campaign for them...result of a democratic vote for brexit, absolutely not.
Probably will blame the Jews for making jezza do it....
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
What far left control of the Labour party has delivered is a relaxed tolerance of anti-Semitism and active support for Brexit. It’s genuinely bizarre that so many members and MPs fail to see what is staring them squarely in the face. Denial is such a powerful force, I guess.
The MPs already know the above, it’s one of the reasons why they don’t like Corbyn. But it’s clear Labour members’ dislike and fear of a return to the agenda pursued by moderates pre Corbyn outweighs any concerns they have about him. It’s been evident now from sometime Corbyn is not on the stop Brexit train, and yet few moderates have managed to win over his supporters.
A significant proportion of his supporters won't turn (if at all) until he's been tested to destruction. At this stage, even an electoral rout would probably be blamed on the centre-left for not mindlessly signing up to Corbynism. Probably only a Corbyn government proving dire on its own terms (pretty likely) would do it.
That doesn't have an awful lot to do with moderates' failings now. It's a well established psychological phenomenon that when people decide one way on something they are wont to reverse course and admit they got it wrong. Often, even if they're presented with incontrovertible evidence they were misled or mistaken. It's one reason why Brexit polls have been very difficult to shift. After the failure to expose Corbyn for what he is in 2015 it's always been an extremely difficult task. It's one that is made much more difficult by the fact that the strongest arguments against Corbyn are moral - whether it be on his anti-Semitism, his indulgence of thuggery and nastiness, or his throwing people under a Brexit bus. These are much more difficult arguments to make when you're in the same party and advocating this person become Prime Minister. Labour MPs may have to burn the village to save it by making clear why no decent person on the left should be able to abide Corbyn.
snip One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
The LibDems were once the champions of the young, and should by now be hoovering up the votes of younger voters unhappy about Brexit, tuition fees, housing, and the general economic settlement.
Sadly a single stupid decision by Clegg f***ed it up for them.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
snip One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
The LibDems were once the champions of the young, and should by now be hoovering up the votes of younger voters unhappy about Brexit, tuition fees, housing, and the general economic settlement.
Sadly a single stupid decision by Clegg f***ed it up for them.
He could hardly make a decision based on wondering if it would prevent them taking advantage of an epochal moment 8 years later. The LDs had a chance at power, finally, and they took it. Did they make the most of it, extract enough from the Tories to make it worth it? People will disagree, most say no. And certainly they underestimated how badly it would hurt them and for how long. But it was not an obviously stupid decision at the time.
I do wonder what the cult have been reading / listening to for the past 3 years that they only just starting to realise that the absolute boy magic grandpa isn’t exactly fighting brexit in the way he fights for release of ISIS supporters from jail for Christmas.
This reads like wishful thinking to me. Corbyn wants power and the only way he can get it is to block May’s deal and then bring her down by forcing a VONC. The Tories are left facing a GE for which they are totally unprepared having failed to deliver Brexit, having abandoned domestic policy and with the same lame duck leader who lost a 20% lead in the polls in a snap GE she called and lost her majority as a result.
While LAB is still in third place in Scotland it has very little chance of winning power.without the support of the SNP
I hope you'll forgive me for that slight modification...
They will have to pay a big price for SNP support
When you say 'big price,' do you mean politically (2nd ref) or are you referring to a DUP style 'big price?'
I do wonder what the cult have been reading / listening to for the past 3 years that they only just starting to realise that the absolute boy magic grandpa isn’t exactly fighting brexit in the way he fights for release of ISIS supporters from jail for Christmas.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
A simple recognition that you were wrong and that an entirely unfounded certainty that Turkey was joining the EU was claimed would be appropriate now.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
snip One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical g parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
The LibDems were once the champions of the young, and should by now be hoovering up the votes of younger voters unhappy about Brexit, tuition fees, housing, and the general economic settlement.
Sadly a single stupid decision by Clegg f***ed it up for them.
He could hardly make a decision based on wondering if it would prevent them taking advantage of an epochal moment 8 years later. The LDs had a chance at power, finally, and they took it. Did they make the most of it, extract enough from the Tories to make it worth it? People will disagree, most say no. And certainly they underestimated how badly it would hurt them and for how long. But it was not an obviously stupid decision at the time.
The coalition decision wasn't, necessarily. The decision to fight an election on the slogan "no more broken promises" and then go on to break their biggest promise, however, was.
And his only chance of bringing the government down is for May's deal to pass
Or if No Deal and enough Tory Remainers like Boles, Soubry and Wollaston VONC the government
....which then puts Corbyn in Downing Street, implementing Brexit. Epic fail by Tory Remainers.
Time for a Plan C, guys and gals.
Yes but it would be a more BINO Brexit than even May's Deal and certainly No Deal ie CU plus maybe SM or even EUref2, assuming of course May does not get a majority from a pre Brexit election for her Deal
It might have been an amusing ten seconds a generation or more ago.
But there are probably more Labour MPs with double surnames now than Conservatives.
On a related issue when did Labour politicians start to accept knighthoods ?
Because they certainly didn't in the 1970s and 1980s.
Sir Frank Soskice had a knighthood.
From wiki:
' Following the war, he was elected to parliament as a Labour Member of Parliament (MP) for Birkenhead East in the 1945 general election, and became Solicitor General,[2] receiving the customary knighthood,[3] in the government of Clement Attlee, serving in that office throughout Attlee's government. '
So he got a knighthood in 1945.
I'm sure there were other Labour politicians of that generation or earlier who accepted knighhoods but did any in the 1970s or 1980s ?
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
If Leavers didn't want to be thought xenophobic (and worse) their campaign shouldn't have revolved around that overtly xenophobic broadcast about the NHS nor lined up behind the Farage 'immigrant' poster.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
A simple recognition that you were wrong and that an entirely unfounded certainty that Turkey was joining the EU was claimed would be appropriate now.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
It was supposed to suggest that the Turks would disproportionately want to move to the UK.
snip In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
This I think is largely correct, but ignores a few things. Firstly, that the Lib Dems are not a pure, clean slate centre-left party but have their own history, quirks and problems that mean they're not an ideal vessel for a centre-left revival. Tuition fees is the oft cited example, but as good is the decision to elevate a man with the views of Tim Farron to the leadership. The Lib Dems have always been an odd collation of disparate ideas, including the centre-left rather than a party of it. Which isn't surprising given the history of its formation but is off putting to centre-left Labour types.
Second, Labour moderates problem is that they're caught in limbo. It's oft said they're lacking ideas but it's not true. They really lack a platform to explore and advocate them. Everytime they do look to set out their own vision it's shouted down as disloyalty to Corbyn and seen through that prism, and the public know they can't do anything so there's been little point.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
A simple recognition that you were wrong and that an entirely unfounded certainty that Turkey was joining the EU was claimed would be appropriate now.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
That immigration under freedom of movement was going to get worse not better if Leave lost. Why would that be unfair. Turkey was on a path to join the EU and had been since 1987. It was only the crackdown on the failed coup and the EU response to that that put the process on hold. Nothing wrong or unfounded about that. The failed coup took place after the referendum.
While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
All completely fair remarks, and I'm guilty of not explaining myself properly. I agree that the overhaul of the centre-left is mainly a consequence of the fallout from economic crisis, and the distress and polarisation of electorates. The centre-right and economic liberals continue to poll reasonably well with the remaining winners of the current settlement; the losers and other malcontents polarise between the more radical left and right, typically along the "somewhere/anywhere" (i.e. communitarian versus universalist) lines identified during the post-mortem of the EU referendum.
But nothing lasts forever, and at some point harder Left parties will either gain power in relatively affluent societies like ours and impoverish them, or keep failing to get over the electoral finishing line and end up self-destructing (because, as a matter of history, socialists have had an in-built predisposition towards ideological schism, and responding to electoral defeat with the assumption that they have been insufficiently radical.) At that juncture, a vacuum for something "not-Tory" will appear and be filled with something broadly social democratic.
Moreover, this seems likely to happen sooner rather than later in a country like Britain. Every voter wants a pony, but they expect someone else to pay for it: a radical Left programme won't long survive contact with the electorate. We saw what happened to the Tories in the last election when they proposed the so-called "dementia tax" - actually a relatively modest, and arguably progressive measure to get rich old folk to pay more towards the rapidly escalating social care bill. There was crying and screaming on an epic scale. A future Corbyn Government could survive for a while by flogging the rich (until they ran away,) flogging big business (until it stopped investing in the UK and started sacking workers and moving their jobs abroad,) and borrowing hand over fist (until the cost of debt servicing became prohibitive,) but eventually they'd have to go after the incomes of the middle class and their stored property wealth to keep spending on their social programmes going, and then support for the Left would collapse overnight. The Tories would ultimately be re-elected to sort out the mess, and the demand at that juncture for a credible Opposition would soon follow.
The hard Left won't make the same mistakes that the centre-Left made with respect to cementing permanent control of their party, so that implies an alternative centrist or centre-Left party would be needed to take over.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
If Leavers didn't want to be thought xenophobic (and worse) their campaign shouldn't have revolved around that overtly xenophobic broadcast about the NHS nor lined up behind the Farage 'immigrant' poster.
You can think what you like. That’s your privilege. Doesn’t mean what you think is right or anything other than ignorant. My immigrant son in law works in the NHS.
snip In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
This I think is largely correct, but ignores a few things. Firstly, that the Lib Dems are not a pure, clean slate centre-left party but have their own history, quirks and problems that mean they're not an ideal vessel for a centre-left revival. Tuition fees is the oft cited example, but as good is the decision to elevate a man with the views of Tim Farron to the leadership. The Lib Dems have always been an odd collation of disparate ideas, including the centre-left rather than a party of it. Which isn't surprising given the history of its formation but is off putting to centre-left Labour types.
In Germany the Greens have overtaken the SPD and are in second place in the polls. Perhaps they could become a challenger to urban Labour here too?
If the comments on Twitter are anything to go by, Corbyn has massively angered a lot of his natural supporters. Some of the comments are something to behold.
What an idiot..... he is pretty much ruling himself out of ever winning an election. He has all the nous of a complete muppet.
Are they going to vote LD instead? Or suck it up if it means getting the Tories out? If it is 'try to renegotiate leave' with Corbyn or 'definitely leave and be ruled by the Tories because of wasted votes on the LDs' which way will such people go?
You would need to be doolally to go LD, however choice is extremely limited.
What far left control of the Labour party has delivered is a relaxed tolerance of anti-Semitism and active support for Brexit. It’s genuinely bizarre that so many members and MPs fail to see what is staring them squarely in the face. Denial is such a powerful force, I guess.
The MPs already know the above, it’s one of the reasons why they don’t like Corbyn. But it’s clear Labour members’ dislike and fear of a return to the agenda pursued by moderates pre Corbyn outweighs any concerns they have about him. It’s been evident now from sometime Corbyn is not on the stop Brexit train, and yet few moderates have managed to win over his supporters.
A significant proportion of his supporters won't turn (if at all) until he's been tested to destruction. At this stage, even an electoral rout would probably be blamed on the centre-left for not mindlessly signing up to Corbynism. Probably only a Corbyn government proving dire on its own terms (pretty likely) would do it.
That doesn't have an awful lot to do with moderates' failings now. It's a well established psychological phenomenon that when people decide one way on something they are wont to reverse course and admit they got it wrong. Often, even if they're presented with incontrovertible evidence they were misled or mistaken. It's one reason why Brexit polls have been very difficult to shift. After the failure to expose Corbyn for what he is in 2015 it's always been an extremely difficult task. It's one that is made much more difficult by the fact that the strongest arguments against Corbyn are moral - whether it be on his anti-Semitism, his indulgence of thuggery and nastiness, or his throwing people under a Brexit bus. These are much more difficult arguments to make when you're in the same party and advocating this person become Prime Minister. Labour MPs may have to burn the village to save it by making clear why no decent person on the left should be able to abide Corbyn.
Not now, I agree. But their failings up until 2015 have in large part contributed to Labour being in this place with Corbyn as leader. I also think this strategy to ‘expose Corbyn for what he is’ or to ‘destroy Brexit myths’ is limited without making the alternative desirable to people. The flaws of Corbyn, for example will not automatically make moderates desirable if people have grievances with them. The flaws of Brexit does not make Remain automatically desirable to people if they have issues with the current settlement.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
A simple recognition that you were wrong and that an entirely unfounded certainty that Turkey was joining the EU was claimed would be appropriate now.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
That immigration under freedom of movement was going to get worse not better if Leave lost. Why would that be unfair. Turkey was on a path to join the EU and had been since 1987. It was only the crackdown on the failed coup and the EU response to that that put the process on hold. Nothing wrong or unfounded about that. The failed coup took place after the referendum.
I note that you cannot admit your mistake and have no explanation for what looks like fairly obvious message-hammering.
You would need to be doolally to go LD, however choice is extremely limited.
Don't feel you have to answer Malcolm, I'm just being nosy. But are there any political parties, organisations, movements or even politicians you have the slightest respect for?
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
A simple recognition that you were wrong and that an entirely unfounded certainty that Turkey was joining the EU was claimed would be appropriate now.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
That immigration under freedom of movement was going to get worse not better if Leave lost. Why would that be unfair. Turkey was on a path to join the EU and had been since 1987. It was only the crackdown on the failed coup and the EU response to that that put the process on hold. Nothing wrong or unfounded about that. The failed coup took place after the referendum.
I note that you cannot admit your mistake and have no explanation for what looks like fairly obvious message-hammering.
It was xenophobia that won the referendum.
Repeating an ignorant statement doesn’t make it any less ignorant.
Amusingly anti semitism they can put up with - but brexit?/ hell no!!
Leavers, on the other hand, are entirely relaxed about xenophobia.
What rubbish. Wanting immigration control and being xenophobic are very different. Makes you look stupid to suggest otherwise.
Leavers won their referendum by untruly claiming that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain. Slice it whatever way you like, that’s xenophobia.
Again, that’s rubbish. The actual quote was Turkey “could” join the EU not “would” so there was no certainty about it at all. To pretend that immigration was not a big driver of Leave’s winning, which was driven by freedom of movement not Muslims, or that there are 17.4 m xenophobes in the U.K. is asinine.
No timetable specified so if Turkey fails to join the EU whilst there is an EU you can tell me that I’m wrong then. Ignoring freedom of movement at the time or claiming that everyone who voted Leave was xenophobic is as asinine as Leavers accusing Remainers of being quislings.
A simple recognition that you were wrong and that an entirely unfounded certainty that Turkey was joining the EU was claimed would be appropriate now.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
That immigration under freedom of movement was going to get worse not better if Leave lost. Why would that be unfair. Turkey was on a path to join the EU and had been since 1987. It was only the crackdown on the failed coup and the EU response to that that put the process on hold. Nothing wrong or unfounded about that. The failed coup took place after the referendum.
I note that you cannot admit your mistake and have no explanation for what looks like fairly obvious message-hammering.
It was xenophobia that won the referendum.
Religion of an ignorant statement doesn’t make it any less ignorant.
You’ve had your opportunity to rebut it. You haven’t taken it.
snip In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
This I think is largely correct, but ignores a few things. Firstly, that the Lib Dems are not a pure, clean slate centre-left party but have their own history, quirks and problems that mean they're not an ideal vessel for a centre-left revival. Tuition fees is the oft cited example, but as good is the decision to elevate a man with the views of Tim Farron to the leadership. The Lib Dems have always been an odd collation of disparate ideas, including the centre-left rather than a party of it. Which isn't surprising given the history of its formation but is off putting to centre-left Labour types.
In Germany the Greens have overtaken the SPD and are in second place in the polls. Perhaps they could become a challenger to urban Labour here too?
Indeed, as the Lewisham East by election showed in urban safe Labour Remain seats where the Tories are no threat the LD vote is capable of surging on an anti Brexit EUref2 ticket and challenging Labour
You would need to be doolally to go LD, however choice is extremely limited.
Don't feel you have to answer Malcolm, I'm just being nosy. But are there any political parties, organisations, movements or even politicians you have the slightest respect for?
Ydoethur, LOL, I like Kenneth Clarke, Alex Salmond is a great favourite and a few SNP politicians. Not many decent ones nowadays, I remember when we had real politicians.
snip In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If snip.
This I think is largely correct, but ignores a few things. Firstly, that the Lib Dems are not a pure, clean slate centre-left party but have their own history, quirks and problems that mean they're not an ideal vessel for a centre-left revival. Tuition fees is the oft cited example, but as good is the decision to elevate a man with the views of Tim Farron to the leadership. The Lib Dems have always been an odd collation of disparate ideas, including the centre-left rather than a party of it. Which isn't surprising given the history of its formation but is off putting to centre-left Labour types.
Second, Labour moderates problem is that they're caught in limbo. It's oft said they're lacking ideas but it's not true. They really lack a platform to explore and advocate them. Everytime they do look to set out their own vision it's shouted down as disloyalty to Corbyn and seen through that prism, and the public know they can't do anything so there's been little point.
You make some good points re the Lib Dem’s, but under FPTP it’s extremely difficult to start a brand new party with no past baggage. That’s why the lady attempt at this type of centre left moderate force was the SDP. So given the circumstances, the LDs are the closest thing to a centre left moderate alternative in our system. The chances of a brand new party emerging with no baggage from the past at all is few and far between. If moderates from Labour broke away they’d carry baggage from Labour’s past as well.
I’d disagree with your second paragraph. I follow a fair few Labour moderates on twitter, they have few ideas that take into account a post 2008, Brexit, Trump world. Most of their ideas are extremely similar to what they’d do in a world pre all these events.
You would need to be doolally to go LD, however choice is extremely limited.
Don't feel you have to answer Malcolm, I'm just being nosy. But are there any political parties, organisations, movements or even politicians you have the slightest respect for?
Ydoethur, LOL, I like Kenneth Clarke, Alex Salmond is a great favourite and a few SNP politicians. Not many decent ones nowadays, I remember when we had real politicians.
So it's not that they're all turnips - just most of them? OK, that's slightly reassuring.
He could hardly make a decision based on wondering if it would prevent them taking advantage of an epochal moment 8 years later. The LDs had a chance at power, finally, and they took it. Did they make the most of it, extract enough from the Tories to make it worth it? People will disagree, most say no. And certainly they underestimated how badly it would hurt them and for how long. But it was not an obviously stupid decision at the time.
That's fair. Arguably the central plank of Lib Dem policy and thinking prior to 2010 was the notion that we should have a more plural and co-operative, continental-style political system with elections via a PR method. This implies a potentially endless series of coalition Governments.
Having found themselves in a position where the only stable Government that could be formed was between themselves and the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats could hardly have turned around and said "Oh no, this is so awful: let's make people vote over and over and over again until they either elect a majority, or give as a coalition partner we have no serious differences with." People who expressed real or mock outrage at the Clegg/Cameron agreement conveniently forgot what a total mockery of the Liberal Democrats and their ideas a flat refusal to enter Government would've made.
One can argue until the cows come home about whether or not they made a good fist of their very awkward position as junior coalition partner - which evidence from continental systems suggests often damages the party that occupies it - but the decision to do a deal with the Tories in the first place was undoubtedly correct.
While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
All completely fair remarks, and I'm guilty of not explaining myself properly. I agree that the overhaul of the centre-left is mainly a consequence of the fallout from economic crisis, and the distress and polarisation of electorates. The centre-right and economic liberals continue to poll reasonably well with the remaining winners of the current settlement; the losers and other malcontents polarise between the more radical left and right, typically along the "somewhere/anywhere" (i.e. communitarian versus universalist) lines identified during the post-mortem of the EU referendum.
But nothing lasts forever, and at some point harder Left parties will either gain power in relatively affluent societies like ours and impoverish them, or keep failing to get over the electoral finishing line and end up self-destructing (because, as a matter of history, socialists have had an in-built predisposition towards ideological schism, and responding to electoral defeat with the assumption that they have been insufficiently radical.) At that juncture, a vacuum for something "not-Tory" will appear and be filled with something broadly social democratic.
snip
The hard Left won't make the same mistakes that the centre-Left made with respect to cementing permanent control of their party, so that implies an alternative centrist or centre-Left party would be needed to take over.
Yes, but what if a Corbyn government isn’t a total disaster? While Corbyn is well....incompetent, McDonnell who is the real master behind the scenes, is not. He is much better at politics than Corbyn is. I don’t think a Corbyn government is going to be particularly great, but his opponents are placing a heavy amount of stock in him being a disaster. Remember that Brexit isn’t going so well atm and yet even in spite of that it isn’t guatanteed that Remain would win second ref.
snip One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force,y the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
The LibDems were once the champions of the young, and should by now be hoovering up the votes of younger voters unhappy about Brexit, tuition fees, housing, and the general economic settlement.
Sadly a single stupid decision by Clegg f***ed it up for them.
While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
All completely fair remarks, and I'm guilty of not explaining myself properly. I agree that the overhaul of the centre-left is mainly a consequence of the fallout from economic crisis, and the distress and polarisation of electorates. The centre-right and economic liberals continue to poll reasonably well with the remaining winners of the current settlement; the losers and other malcontents polarise between the more radical left and right, typically along the "somewhere/anywhere" (i.e. communitarian versus universalist) lines identified during the post-mortem of the EU referendum.
But nothing lasts forever, and at some point harder Left parties will either gain power in relatively affluent societies like ours and impoverish them, or keep failing to get over the electoral finishing line and end up self-destructing (because, as a matter of history, socialists have had an in-built predisposition towards ideological schism, and responding to electoral defeat with the assumption that they have been insufficiently radical.) At that juncture, a vacuum for something "not-Tory" will appear and be filled with something broadly social democratic.
snip
The hard Left won't make the same mistakes that the centre-Left made with respect to cementing permanent control of their party, so that implies an alternative centrist or centre-Left party would be needed to take over.
Yes, but what if a Corbyn government isn’t a total disaster? While Corbyn is well....incompetent, McDonnell who is the real master behind the scenes, is not. He is much better at politics than Corbyn is. I don’t think a Corbyn government is going to be particularly great, but his opponents are placing a heavy amount of stock in him being a disaster. Remember that Brexit isn’t going so well atm and yet even in spite of that it isn’t guatanteed that Remain would win second ref.
He is, it is true, able and intelligent.
He is also nearly as old as Corbyn, has a history of health problems and carries more baggage one way and another than an Edwardian porter at Euston.
He could hardly make a decision based on wondering if it would prevent them taking advantage of an epochal moment 8 years later. The LDs had a chance at power, finally, and they took it. Did they make the most of it, extract enough from the Tories to make it worth it? People will disagree, most say no. And certainly they underestimated how badly it would hurt them and for how long. But it was not an obviously stupid decision at the time.
That's fair. Arguably the central plank of Lib Dem policy and thinking prior to 2010 was the notion that we should have a more plural and co-operative, continental-style political system with elections via a PR method. This implies a potentially endless series of coalition Governments.
Having found themselves in a position where the only stable Government that could be formed was between themselves and the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats could hardly have turned around and said "Oh no, this is so awful: let's make people vote over and over and over again until they either elect a majority, or give as a coalition partner we have no serious differences with." People who expressed real or mock outrage at the Clegg/Cameron agreement conveniently forgot what a total mockery of the Liberal Democrats and their ideas a flat refusal to enter Government would've made.
One can argue until the cows come home about whether or not they made a good fist of their very awkward position as junior coalition partner - which evidence from continental systems suggests often damages the party that occupies it - but the decision to do a deal with the Tories in the first place was undoubtedly correct.
The LibDems had no realistic option but to form a coalition government in 2010.
But they did have a choice to allow the tripling of tuition fees.
And the decision they made proved to be the wrong one both on the issue itself and for the political consequences to themselves.
While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
All completely fair remarks, and I'm guilty of not explaining myself properly. I agree that the overhaul of the centre-left is mainly a consequence of the fallout from economic crisis, and the distress and polarisation of electorates. The centre-right and economic liberals continue to poll reasonably well with the remaining winners of the current settlement; the losers and other malcontents polarise between the more radical left and right, typically along the "somewhere/anywhere" (i.e. communitarian versus universalist) lines identified during the post-mortem of the EU referendum.
But nothing lasts forever, and at some point harder Left parties will either gain power in relatively affluent societies like ours and impoverish them, or keep failing to get over the electoral finishing line and end up self-destructing (because, as a matter of history, socialists have had an in-built predisposition towards ideological schism, and responding to electoral defeat with the assumption that they have been insufficiently radical.) At that juncture, a vacuum for something "not-Tory" will appear and be filled with something broadly social democratic.
snip
The hard Left won't make the same mistakes that the centre-Left made with respect to cementing permanent control of their party, so that implies an alternative centrist or centre-Left party would be needed to take over.
Yes, but what if a Corbyn government isn’t a total disaster? While Corbyn is well....incompetent, McDonnell who is the real master behind the scenes, is not. He is much better at politics than Corbyn is. I don’t think a Corbyn government is going to be particularly great, but his opponents are placing a heavy amount of stock in him being a disaster. Remember that Brexit isn’t going so well atm and yet even in spite of that it isn’t guatanteed that Remain would win second ref.
He is, it is true, able and intelligent.
He is also nearly as old as Corbyn, has a history of health problems and carries more baggage one way and another than an Edwardian porter at Euston.
He carries a massive amount of baggage, but that will only shown to have mattered to voters if it stops Labour from getting into government.
I can't remember my headmaster's name, so I'll use our bursar's:
Frederick Stenson-Pinecoffin.
That's awesome. In fact, it's dead funny.
Mine came out as James Winfield-Jones.
If I recall correctly, the great thing about Mr Pinecoffin was that he had a wooden leg. I never asked if it was pine or some other wood ...
Not even in a fit of coffin?
That was not a crate joke. If you continue like this, you will throw a pall over proceedings. You'd be best off throwing a shroud over your attempts at humour.
I can't remember my headmaster's name, so I'll use our bursar's:
Frederick Stenson-Pinecoffin.
That's awesome. In fact, it's dead funny.
Mine came out as James Winfield-Jones.
If I recall correctly, the great thing about Mr Pinecoffin was that he had a wooden leg. I never asked if it was pine or some other wood ...
Not even in a fit of coffin?
That was not a crate joke. If you continue like this, you will throw a pall over proceedings. You'd be best off throwing a shroud over your attempts at humour.
While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
All completely fair remarks, and I'm guilty of not explaining myself properly. I agree that the overhaul of the centre-left is mainly a consequence of the fallout from economic crisis, and the distress and polarisation of electorates. The centre-right and economic liberals continue to poll reasonably well with the remaining winners of the current settlement; the losers and other malcontents polarise between the more radical left and right, typically along the "somewhere/anywhere" (i.e. communitarian versus universalist) lines identified during the post-mortem of the EU referendum.
But nothing lasts forever, and at some point harder Left parties will either gain power in relatively affluent societies like ours and impoverish them, or keep failing to get over the electoral finishing line and end up self-destructing (because, as a matter of history, socialists have had an in-built predisposition towards ideological schism, and responding to electoral defeat with the assumption that they have been insufficiently radical.) At that juncture, a vacuum for something "not-Tory" will appear and be filled with something broadly social democratic.
snip
The hard Left won't make the same mistakes that the centre-Left made with respect to cementing permanent control of their party, so that implies an alternative centrist or centre-Left party would be needed to take over.
Yes, but what if a Corbyn government isn’t a total disaster? While Corbyn is well....incompetent, McDonnell who is the real master behind the scenes, is not. He is much better at politics than Corbyn is. I don’t think a Corbyn government is going to be particularly great, but his opponents are placing a heavy amount of stock in him being a disaster. Remember that Brexit isn’t going so well atm and yet even in spite of that it isn’t guatanteed that Remain would win second ref.
I expect Corbyn would suffer the fate of Hollande and Syriza in Greece now who were elected on populist left platforms but where the centre right opposition soon built up big poll leads, ultimately of course it was only the ultra centrist Macron who prevented Fillon winning the Presidency in 2017. Had Hollande stood for re election he would have lost
If the comments on Twitter are anything to go by, Corbyn has massively angered a lot of his natural supporters. Some of the comments are something to behold.
What an idiot..... he is pretty much ruling himself out of ever winning an election. He has all the nous of a complete muppet.
Are they going to vote LD instead? Or suck it up if it means getting the Tories out? If it is 'try to renegotiate leave' with Corbyn or 'definitely leave and be ruled by the Tories because of wasted votes on the LDs' which way will such people go?
You would need to be doolally to go LD, however choice is extremely limited.
snip One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
If we want a moderate slightly left of centre political force, the Lib Dems are already that now. Yet they aren’t doing that well, and certainly aren’t any close to over taking Labour. That the Lib Dems’ greatest moment of success in recent decades was when they were seen as to ‘left’ of Labour while moderates were at the helm in the Labour Party shouldn’t be forgetton either. While I don’t think many voters outside Corbyn’s core base particularly like him, I’ve not been convinced there’s large scale demand for Blairite/moderate vision since 2017. The collapse of the centre left across Europe has happened for a reason, and it’s not entirely in spite of what voters want.
This, always considered myself a left winger but was never much interested in voting for labour before Corbyn.
TBH the labour moderates who want a return to the centre are anything but pragmatic and concentrated on winning elections, as much as the left in years gone by they want to push their beliefs in spite of the electorate not because of it.
I note that, belatedly and finally, Twitter has today realised that Corbyn is an utter berk.
Good to have y'all on board guys. Better late than never!
Still, it's amazing that somebody so clearly, continually and profoundly inept at the basics of politics, somebody so obviously lacking in either intellect, talent or temperament, was able to pull the wool over the eyes of so many sanctimonious centrists for so long.
A (mostly admirable) desire to want to hate the Tories at any cost, has unnecessarily blinded so many otherwise-intelligent folk to how unspeakably substandard Corbyn is.
Watching James O'Brien reaping a whirlwind of abuse from the Cult of Magic Grandpa has been a joy to behold.
In Germany the Greens have overtaken the SPD and are in second place in the polls. Perhaps they could become a challenger to urban Labour here too?
Indeed, as the Lewisham East by election showed in urban safe Labour Remain seats where the Tories are no threat the LD vote is capable of surging on an anti Brexit EUref2 ticket and challenging Labour
snip In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
In Germany the Greens have overtaken the SPD and are in second place in the polls. Perhaps they could become a challenger to urban Labour here too?
Indeed, as the Lewisham East by election showed in urban safe Labour Remain seats where the Tories are no threat the LD vote is capable of surging on an anti Brexit EUref2 ticket and challenging Labour
snip In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
In Germany the Greens have overtaken the SPD and are in second place in the polls. Perhaps they could become a challenger to urban Labour here too?
Indeed, as the Lewisham East by election showed in urban safe Labour Remain seats where the Tories are no threat the LD vote is capable of surging on an anti Brexit EUref2 ticket and challenging Labour
That was hardly a surge - more a collapse in turnout. If anything, a rather disappointing result for the LibDems given the effort applied.
Comments
Edit, also:
Our research strongly supports the claims of Professor Hobolt and her colleagues. Nearly nine in ten members of our panel said that they were either a ‘Remainer’ or a ‘Leaver’, whereas less than two-thirds of them claim to identify with a political party. Meanwhile, no less than 44% say they are a ‘very strong Remainer’ or a ‘very strong Leaver’, whereas only 9% claim to be a very strong supporter of a political party.
His economic views (or rather lack of them absent his political belief in the essential goodness of socialism) are vital to understanding his approach to Brexit. They explain why he's far more relaxed about the economic consequences of bad outcomes than either the centre-left or even some on the far left who are more deeply engaged with economics - even McDonnell, who is at least aware that it bad Brexit outcomes could overwhelm him as Chancellor. But for Corbyn, there's ways in which even dreadful versions of Brexit are a good thing because it would be (at least to him) a failure of neoliberalism and an opportunity for socialism to save us all.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I would vote for the deal if I were an MP since, while rancid, it delivers what was campaigned for. But I seem to be in a small minority.
If the anti-EU opposition melts away, we are back to counting the number of diehard Tory opponents versus the potential support for the deal from individual opposition MPs.
Remember that May doesn't need to win, first time around, just to do better than any alternative proposition.
Good evening, everybody.
One of the themes of recent European politics has been the hollowing out of the centre-left vote in most countries. Britain is held up as an exception because of the relative success of Labour. Not true. In other polities, more radical or unorthodox Left parties - la France Insoumise, Syriza, the German Greens - have taken on and overhauled their social democratic rivals in elections. In Britain, with FPTP and its consequent broad-church governing parties - the radicals haven't had to bother. They've simply overthrown their centre-left colleagues and seized control of their party from them.
The Labour centre-Left resembles nothing so much as one of the victims of the parasitic species in the Alien movies. Despite inadequate and ultimately futile efforts to save the patient, the Corbyn movement has burst out of its chest and it's flailing about on the operating table in the final throes of agony. Its ultimate demise appears inevitable.
One assumes that a moderate, slightly left-of-centre political force will re-emerge at some point in the future, but it seems more likely that it will either be an evolution of the Liberal Democrats, or something entirely new, than the Labour Party.
(This is one of the topics I cover in A-level philosophy.)
And while Brexit is a big issue and anti-semitism an emotive one (which they argue about how big it is), on pretty much everything else it doesn't seem like the MPs are that unhappy.
What an idiot..... he is pretty much ruling himself out of ever winning an election. He has all the nous of a complete muppet.
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/724695956688637953
But it's a pointless discussion.
But there are probably more Labour MPs with double surnames now than Conservatives.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6521935/amp/Tennis-legend-Martina-Navratilova-accused-transphobic.html
https://goo.gl/images/uPXxqR
Probably will blame the Jews for making jezza do it....
That doesn't have an awful lot to do with moderates' failings now. It's a well established psychological phenomenon that when people decide one way on something they are wont to reverse course and admit they got it wrong. Often, even if they're presented with incontrovertible evidence they were misled or mistaken. It's one reason why Brexit polls have been very difficult to shift. After the failure to expose Corbyn for what he is in 2015 it's always been an extremely difficult task. It's one that is made much more difficult by the fact that the strongest arguments against Corbyn are moral - whether it be on his anti-Semitism, his indulgence of thuggery and nastiness, or his throwing people under a Brexit bus. These are much more difficult arguments to make when you're in the same party and advocating this person become Prime Minister. Labour MPs may have to burn the village to save it by making clear why no decent person on the left should be able to abide Corbyn.
Sadly a single stupid decision by Clegg f***ed it up for them.
Because they certainly didn't in the 1970s and 1980s.
Frederick Stenson-Pinecoffin.
Mine came out as James Winfield-Jones.
The idea that the claimed timetable was open-ended is belied by the footprints. What do you think that was supposed to suggest?
' Following the war, he was elected to parliament as a Labour Member of Parliament (MP) for Birkenhead East in the 1945 general election, and became Solicitor General,[2] receiving the customary knighthood,[3] in the government of Clement Attlee, serving in that office throughout Attlee's government. '
So he got a knighthood in 1945.
I'm sure there were other Labour politicians of that generation or earlier who accepted knighhoods but did any in the 1970s or 1980s ?
Second, Labour moderates problem is that they're caught in limbo. It's oft said they're lacking ideas but it's not true. They really lack a platform to explore and advocate them. Everytime they do look to set out their own vision it's shouted down as disloyalty to Corbyn and seen through that prism, and the public know they can't do anything so there's been little point.
But nothing lasts forever, and at some point harder Left parties will either gain power in relatively affluent societies like ours and impoverish them, or keep failing to get over the electoral finishing line and end up self-destructing (because, as a matter of history, socialists have had an in-built predisposition towards ideological schism, and responding to electoral defeat with the assumption that they have been insufficiently radical.) At that juncture, a vacuum for something "not-Tory" will appear and be filled with something broadly social democratic.
Moreover, this seems likely to happen sooner rather than later in a country like Britain. Every voter wants a pony, but they expect someone else to pay for it: a radical Left programme won't long survive contact with the electorate. We saw what happened to the Tories in the last election when they proposed the so-called "dementia tax" - actually a relatively modest, and arguably progressive measure to get rich old folk to pay more towards the rapidly escalating social care bill. There was crying and screaming on an epic scale. A future Corbyn Government could survive for a while by flogging the rich (until they ran away,) flogging big business (until it stopped investing in the UK and started sacking workers and moving their jobs abroad,) and borrowing hand over fist (until the cost of debt servicing became prohibitive,) but eventually they'd have to go after the incomes of the middle class and their stored property wealth to keep spending on their social programmes going, and then support for the Left would collapse overnight. The Tories would ultimately be re-elected to sort out the mess, and the demand at that juncture for a credible Opposition would soon follow.
The hard Left won't make the same mistakes that the centre-Left made with respect to cementing permanent control of their party, so that implies an alternative centrist or centre-Left party would be needed to take over.
You can think what you like. That’s your privilege. Doesn’t mean what you think is right or anything other than ignorant. My immigrant son in law works in the NHS.
Similarly, Elwyn Jones accepted a knighthood but Sam Silkin refused it.
Come to think of it though, you did say specifically the 70s and 80s so your point seems to be valid.
It was xenophobia that won the referendum.
I’d disagree with your second paragraph. I follow a fair few Labour moderates on twitter, they have few ideas that take into account a post 2008, Brexit, Trump world. Most of their ideas are extremely similar to what they’d do in a world pre all these events.
Having found themselves in a position where the only stable Government that could be formed was between themselves and the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats could hardly have turned around and said "Oh no, this is so awful: let's make people vote over and over and over again until they either elect a majority, or give as a coalition partner we have no serious differences with." People who expressed real or mock outrage at the Clegg/Cameron agreement conveniently forgot what a total mockery of the Liberal Democrats and their ideas a flat refusal to enter Government would've made.
One can argue until the cows come home about whether or not they made a good fist of their very awkward position as junior coalition partner - which evidence from continental systems suggests often damages the party that occupies it - but the decision to do a deal with the Tories in the first place was undoubtedly correct.
He is also nearly as old as Corbyn, has a history of health problems and carries more baggage one way and another than an Edwardian porter at Euston.
Sounds like he might be in favour of bringing back the birch.
But they did have a choice to allow the tripling of tuition fees.
And the decision they made proved to be the wrong one both on the issue itself and for the political consequences to themselves.
TBH the labour moderates who want a return to the centre are anything but pragmatic and concentrated on winning elections, as much as the left in years gone by they want to push their beliefs in spite of the electorate not because of it.
Good to have y'all on board guys. Better late than never!
Still, it's amazing that somebody so clearly, continually and profoundly inept at the basics of politics, somebody so obviously lacking in either intellect, talent or temperament, was able to pull the wool over the eyes of so many sanctimonious centrists for so long.
A (mostly admirable) desire to want to hate the Tories at any cost, has unnecessarily blinded so many otherwise-intelligent folk to how unspeakably substandard Corbyn is.
Watching James O'Brien reaping a whirlwind of abuse from the Cult of Magic Grandpa has been a joy to behold.