The Government and the DUP calling Corbyns vnoc in TM a stunt and challenging him to put down a vnoc in the government is exactly the correct action and is just going to annoy voters even more against Corbyn
'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge
I think that sums it up. Both May and Corbyn both want Brexit to happen and thus both support May's deal. Both know that they may very likely have their formal positions over run by their respective parties and thus have to come out for no deal/2nd ref. So they are locked in a strange dance. Both could well conspire to pass May's deal, neither will want to fire first on their fall back positions but either may fire first if they think their parties are going to first fire for them.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Remind me how she became PM again?
Edit/ I remember now: by waiting until all the other options destroyed themselves.
The Government and the DUP calling Corbyns vnoc in TM a stunt and challenging him to put down a vnoc in the government is exactly the correct action and is just going to annoy voters even more against Corbyn
'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge
It depends on how it's seen. If it's seen as Labour failing to put down a meaningful vote because they're frit, they will suffer. If it's seen as May dodging the vote, she'll take a hit.
How the hell did Corbyn manage to get 2 Es at A Level?
A Levels were easier in his day, they've considerably harder afterwards, peaking in 1997.
Much harder in his day, but if a Uni liked you you could still study and get a grant with two Es. I guess no-one liked him. I can see why.
Possibly harder to get top grades, but pass level was easy.
Not just A-levels either. A degree without honours at Cambridge was a piece of paper with some Latin on it.
Which of the pieces of paper did you get from Cambridge? Ordinary degrees are rare, but I've not met anyone who wasn't outstanding in later life that has such a thing.
At A level people failed. I'm not so sure they do so now.
You would be sure wrongly. I have had several students fail.
And I went to a proper university.
I've no argument with Hull's reputation...
Tricky ground when it's your student's that are underperforming.
'A' level grades have declined substantially in merit, as have degree classes. I don't think this is a UK thing - it's much more general.
That, unfortunately, is not true. They are now very hard to get. They're all the harder when the marking criteria is wrong because Amanda Spielman is a lowlife and Gove is a failure, and the Principal Exmainer for one module was so dense he didn't know the Duke of Suffolk was murdered in 1450.
And as for the abuse about my students underperforming, sit them yourself before you try to bully anyone further with your lies and ignorance. If you get a decent mark, by all means criticise. You would fail, but that would at least be very funny.
Sorry. I didn't mean for one moment to abuse you for your students performance. It was tongue in cheek. I don't think you really have grounds to believe that it was my intent to be rude, but if you took it amiss then I apologise wholeheartedly.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
The day she put herself before country. Totally lost me at that point.
And me. I can still defend many of the actions she did and has since taken, but I see no justification for that action, no way it has actually helped this situation as even some other delays could conceivably do.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
I'll grant you that - if she gets this deal through, even at the cost of her government, it will be an incredible and unlikely political accomplishment (the positives and negatives of that accomplishment for history to decide. However, you will forgive me if I regard that as a vanishingly small possibility - support for the deal in parliament does not seem to have increased one iota in a month.
A year or so ago I made a comment that most healthcare companies were planning to move from uk regulation to EC regulation. This was dismissed as project fear. Well in this case I was right. Funny that I know more about my industry than armchair critics. The price for more control of freedom of movement is complete loss of control over the economy
The Government and the DUP calling Corbyns vnoc in TM a stunt and challenging him to put down a vnoc in the government is exactly the correct action and is just going to annoy voters even more against Corbyn
'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge
It depends on how it's seen. If it's seen as Labour failing to put down a meaningful vote because they're frit, they will suffer. If it's seen as May dodging the vote, she'll take a hit.
I think most people will go politicians being pillocks, time for the Christmas piss up.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
You can amend a confidence motion? Parliamentary procedure is bizarre. I'm in the final stages of a Poirot story and the reveal is not as ridiculous as parliament right now, and that's saying something.
Sorry. I didn't mean for one moment to abuse you for your students performance. It was tongue in cheek. I don't think you really have grounds to believe that it was my intent to be rude, but if you took it amiss then I apologise wholeheartedly.
Well, I clearly misunderstood you. I may be being a bit sensitive because somebody was cocking about with exam reforms on the last thread and refusing to accept y'know, things like facts about how disastrously screwed up things are right now. It is making me ill - and I mean that seriously.
Your apology is accepted. Similarly, I apologise for misunderstanding and flying off the handle with unkind remarks about your grammar which was almost certainly autocorrect. I've had jokes that were taken the wrong way and I know it doesn't feel great.
Incidentally, my autocorrect somehow misspells 'because' all the time. Does anyone know how to fix it?
You can amend a confidence motion? Parliamentary procedure is bizarre. I'm in the final stages of a Poirot story and the reveal is not as ridiculous as parliament right now, and that's saying something.
But you can't change the nature of it until the amendment is taken and carried. So in terms of parliamentary time Labour's meaningless vote isn't going to be getting any.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
You can amend a confidence motion? Parliamentary procedure is bizarre. I'm in the final stages of a Poirot story and the reveal is not as ridiculous as parliament right now, and that's saying something.
At this moment, it's a plague on all their houses, but Labour are looking the most inept.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
I respectfully disagree. It's reckless, it's possibly very selfish, and it may even be unprincipled, but MPs have a way to force her out, they are under no obligation to do as she wants, but nor is she under an obligation to give them what they want. And them crying about the PM not doing what they want does not make it blackmail. Being pressured does not make it blackmail. They have choices, they just don't like the ones she is presenting them.
Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
I respectfully disagree. It's reckless, it's possibly very selfish, and it may even be unprincipled, but MPs have a way to force her out, they are under no obligation to do as she wants, but nor is she under an obligation to give them what they want. And them crying about the PM not doing what they want does not make it blackmail. Being pressured does not make it blackmail. They have choices, they just don't like the ones she is presenting them.
Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
Respect right back at you. But you are wrong. The PMs job it to lead not coerce. She had a vote but ran away. She does not have the votes, putting people under duress is blackmail. Which will either fail and exhaust better alternatives or introduce bitterness and illegitimacy into the outcome. I thought she was better than that, I was wrong.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
It is awesome as it means we end up rejoining as full blown members of the EU.
We're going to take our rightful place at the heart of Europe and we owe it to Leavers and the ERG in particular.
At some point we'll go back to "normal" politics and be disappointed at the realisation that it's not got leader votes of no confidence, government votes of no confidence, emergency debates, governments in contempt, meaningful votes, second referendums, general elections etc. etc. every other day.
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
Yes but enough about Corbyn
Corbyn did not call the MV and cancel it at the 11th hour just because they would lose.
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV
The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV
The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV
The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV
The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
Two votes?
Even more of a laughing stock
Why?
Do one, fail. Adopted people’s vote position. Amend MV.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
Ruth Davidson will be the Prime Minister (of Scotland) who joins the Euro.
Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV
The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
Two votes?
Even more of a laughing stock
The 117 now rallying to the cause of their wonderful Leader are the only laughing stock I can see.
Re the debate in the HOC - the gentler questions from ERG and DUP to TM, JRM pledge of support to TM in the HOC, Steve Baker pledging support tonight with the DUP does seem to be a move in the mood music
Early signs maybe of movement to the deal, but who knows
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
Was astonished by the homelessness in the West End this weekend. Huge numbers sleeping in Charing Cross Tube station - I counted about 20 sets of sleeping bags, and "camps", often of couples. Never seen anything like it since the '80s.
Re the debate in the HOC - the gentler questions from ERG and DUP to TM, JRM pledge of support to TM in the HOC, Steve Baker pledging support tonight with the DUP does seem to be a move in the mood music
Early signs maybe of movement to the deal, but who knows
I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.
Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
Blackmail is not genius.
It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
I respectfully disagree. It's reckless, it's possibly very selfish, and it may even be unprincipled, but MPs have a way to force her out, they are under no obligation to do as she wants, but nor is she under an obligation to give them what they want. And them crying about the PM not doing what they want does not make it blackmail. Being pressured does not make it blackmail. They have choices, they just don't like the ones she is presenting them.
Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
Respect right back at you. But you are wrong. The PMs job it to lead not coerce. She had a vote but ran away. She does not have the votes, putting people under duress is blackmail. Which will either fail and exhaust better alternatives or introduce bitterness and illegitimacy into the outcome. I thought she was better than that, I was wrong.
And all she will achieve is to make MPs angrier and even less likely to back the deal.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
Err...the LibDem minister wanted to do it and May, to her credit but also aware of the risk of LibDems running it as their own political initiative, gave it her support. Tories were reacting not acting.
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
I visited a cousin in a county town in the South West recently. Walking to her house from the station I was shocked at the shabbiness of the shops, the potholes in the road and the number of beggars who accosted me in the High street. And this town is normally considered prosperous and secure.
Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.
Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
May and Corbyn are both likely being bounced into positions they don't particularly want. They are not leaders, and ultimately they cannot control their parties well enough.
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
I visited a cousin in a county town in the South West recently. Walking to her house from the station I was shocked at the shabbiness of the shops, the potholes in the road and the number of beggars who accosted me in the High street. And this town is normally considered prosperous and secure.
I almost thought it was near to me for a moment there until your last sentence
Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.
Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
Fortunately I think the SNP might have ridden in to save Corbyn's bacon with their amendment.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
I suspect the legalisation of marijuana will be the next big thing.
Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.
I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.
Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
At the moment they would lose a VoNC in the Government. By targeting the PM they could in theory have a few ERG members having strategic emergency hospital appointments to be unavoidable detained away from Parliament. And they couldn't do the same for a full VoNC...
So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
I'm not sure if I have admitted this on here, anyway I will say it, even if it makes me look a fool (hint: it does) - because it has lessons for the future of Brexit, and also people who vote Corbyn, etc
I voted Leave because I thought Remain would win. That is to say: I wrestled long and hard with my conscience, about how I should vote. I knew that, morally, I should vote Leave, even if it meant personal loss (London property prices, etc) because the democratic gain was worth it: sovereign nations are, in the end, happier nations. The UK had simply to look to its democratic offspring, Canada and Australia, to see great examples of what we should do and what we could be. I still believe that.
Yet my mind havered; even as my heart yearned for Brexit, I knew the initial cost would be dramatic, and personal.
On the last day I was reassured by the polls. Remain would win by a canter. I could vote with my conscience, confident in the expectation that I wouldn't have to suffer the financial consequences, as Remain would win.
To put it bluntly: I could look myself in the eye, and my flat would still increase in value.
Then Leave won, and I was filled with awe, hope, surprise, bewilderment and existential dread, all at the same time.
I wonder how many other voters did the same as me. Boris Johnson is one, I suspect: in his heart he genuinely wanted Leave, in his head he thought Remain would win anyway, and he would personally benefit.
My brother voted Leave as a protest, not expecting them to win, and was shocked when it did. Brexit has already caused him no end of business difficulties, many of which were entirely predictable.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
I suspect the legalisation of marijuana will be the next big thing.
Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.
I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
The LDs already came out in favour of legalisation, though I suppose they are hardly a major party anymore (I assume they don't qualify as such for PPBs and such). Labour will definitely get their first I think.
Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.
Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
At the moment they would lose a VoNC in the Government. By targeting the PM they could in theory have a few ERG members having strategic emergency hospital appointments to be unavoidable detained away from Parliament. And they couldn't do the same for a full VoNC...
So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
Nah, planning to cause problems for the opposition is thinking too deep. Everything is driven by internal politics nowadays, and Corbyn is simply frightened of his Conference motion (especially with a fifty year track record of insisting that Conference is sovereign).
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
I visited a cousin in a county town in the South West recently. Walking to her house from the station I was shocked at the shabbiness of the shops, the potholes in the road and the number of beggars who accosted me in the High street. And this town is normally considered prosperous and secure.
I observed the same; rural areas are clearly struggling.
Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.
Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
At the moment they would lose a VoNC in the Government. By targeting the PM they could in theory have a few ERG members having strategic emergency hospital appointments to be unavoidable detained away from Parliament. And they couldn't do the same for a full VoNC...
So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
There are literally zero exemptions for not voting in a VONC.
The whips will wheel you in on a gurney if they have to.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
I suspect the legalisation of marijuana will be the next big thing.
Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.
I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
I am sure labour are going to, i can see them going for the “medical” usage fudge that places like California had for years.
I wonder how many other voters did the same as me. Boris Johnson is one, I suspect: in his heart he genuinely wanted Leave, in his head he thought Remain would win anyway, and he would personally benefit.
I think he genuinely wanted Remain, so he could play the disgruntled leaver keeping the flame alive.
If the SNP had won Indyref, Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't even be a footnote.
Then he won, and now BoZo is completely screwed. Fortunately.
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
Was astonished by the homelessness in the West End this weekend. Huge numbers sleeping in Charing Cross Tube station - I counted about 20 sets of sleeping bags, and "camps", often of couples. Never seen anything like it since the '80s.
The bulk of homelessness in London is because of migration from Eastern Europe. Sad, but true.
It's not (in London) a symptom of Brexit, it's a CAUSE of Brexit.
These seemed to be largely white british people from outside the centre, judging by the accents that I did hear. The main exit to trafalgar to square had row after row of them in their sleeping bags.
If the advice actually helps them this time perhaps they would be best advised to just reveal it. Though surely extending A50 would be a matter for the ECJ, in which case our view could just be wrong again anyway.
Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
Was astonished by the homelessness in the West End this weekend. Huge numbers sleeping in Charing Cross Tube station - I counted about 20 sets of sleeping bags, and "camps", often of couples. Never seen anything like it since the '80s.
The bulk of homelessness in London is because of migration from Eastern Europe. Sad, but true.
Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
Err...the LibDem minister wanted to do it and May, to her credit but also aware of the risk of LibDems running it as their own political initiative, gave it her support. Tories were reacting not acting.
There is no evidence for that. It happened to be a Lib Dem because she was the Minister for Equalities.
I love Nicola as she sums our catastrophe up so perfectly. The only front rank credible leader in the country has the sole aim of destroying the country.
Comments
'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge
Edit/ I remember now: by waiting until all the other options destroyed themselves.
Best thing this country has ever done.
Your apology is accepted. Similarly, I apologise for misunderstanding and flying off the handle with unkind remarks about your grammar which was almost certainly autocorrect. I've had jokes that were taken the wrong way and I know it doesn't feel great.
Incidentally, my autocorrect somehow misspells 'because' all the time. Does anyone know how to fix it?
https://youtu.be/_ZEEgIti8sM
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1074772175788392448
Which is almost incredible.
Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
It is awesome as it means we end up rejoining as full blown members of the EU.
We're going to take our rightful place at the heart of Europe and we owe it to Leavers and the ERG in particular.
https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1074752309400346627?s=19
can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?
Thanks.
https://static.politico.com/5e/29/55eea4ed4deeaaf42e628a842376/181214-iowa-survey-memo-v2.pdf
Note the KLOBUCHAR SURGE
Merry Christmas!
Only there's been a lot more shouting and stupidity.
In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.
The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
Do one, fail.
Adopted people’s vote position.
Amend MV.
If that fails, second VONC.
Night all.
....and that's where Corbyn doesn't want to go.
Early signs maybe of movement to the deal, but who knows
If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
Our Westminster system is essentially two bags of shit, each propping the other up.
Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.
I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1074786741733781504
So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
The whips will wheel you in on a gurney if they have to.
If the SNP had won Indyref, Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't even be a footnote.
Then he won, and now BoZo is completely screwed. Fortunately.
.