May has tried speaking to the voters - members of the house of commons - without success. She could try phoning their families to try to nag the MPs into supporting her. This national tour and talk of a TV debate just shouts out Desperation.
It should be entertaining for PBers but who else will want to watch?
Quite a few people. Most people are currently basing their opinions of it from their favoured journalists, hearsay and the positions of other politicians; “if so and so likes/hates it, it must be good/bad.”
She’ll earn respect for calling for it and doing it. Whether she can win anyone over through it is another matter.
I think she just sees it as her duty to take all necessary steps to maximise the chances of success.
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
One side is pro-Mays deal, the other side is anti. Seems balanced to me.
Everyone knows what Theresa May thinks about Brexit. Jeremy Corbyn would have to be exceptionally adroit not to reveal his thoughts on Brexit in a debate. He’ll win the debate and lose the politics as a result.
Perhaps, but there will be endless scope for Corbyn to exploit Conservative divisions: does the Prime Minister agree with her Secretary of State for Whatever that ...?
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
Someone asked on the last thread about Sky's campaign for a debates commission. One would come in handy now.
I suspect May was calling Corbyn’s bluff. No-one in No 10 with a scintilla of sense can have thought that putting the Maybot on national TV to sell an unpopular deal would be a good idea. Corbyn has done the right thing by agreeing. I doubt he expects to be taken up on it.
I suspect May was calling Corbyn’s bluff. No-one in No 10 with a scintilla of sense can have thought that putting the Maybot on national TV to sell an unpopular deal would be a good idea. Corbyn has done the right thing by agreeing. I doubt he expects to be taken up on it.
Yes, I reckon that's about the size of it. May is starting to panic and flailing around looking for a magic bullet to win over her MPs. The only such bullet available is a referendum.
I don't see the point of a debate for Theresa May. She needs to do only one thing: get the the Withdrawal Agreement through parliament. She has a minority government and will likely depend on Labour acquiescence. Publicly debating Jeremy Corbyn helps gain Labour acquiescence how?
I suspect May was calling Corbyn’s bluff. No-one in No 10 with a scintilla of sense can have thought that putting the Maybot on national TV to sell an unpopular deal would be a good idea. Corbyn has done the right thing by agreeing. I doubt he expects to be taken up on it.
Actually I don’t think that is the case. I suspect May realises that it’s cards-down time. She is fighting an uphill battle so she needs to introduce more unknowns to the equation. Whether it will work (I suspect not) is another thing entirely but I don’t actually believe that she only offered it because she thought it wouldn’t happen.
Given that MPs, not the public will vote on the deal, what purpose will the debate serve? The only reason for it to take place would be f May was planning a 2nd referendum and/or GE immediately after.
I suspect May was calling Corbyn’s bluff. No-one in No 10 with a scintilla of sense can have thought that putting the Maybot on national TV to sell an unpopular deal would be a good idea. Corbyn has done the right thing by agreeing. I doubt he expects to be taken up on it.
He has agreed? Haven't seen that confirmed yet. I agree with Edmund that it makes sense for him - gives him equal standing and a chance to intervene in the Tory vs Tory battle that everyone's so tired of.
I suspect May was calling Corbyn’s bluff. No-one in No 10 with a scintilla of sense can have thought that putting the Maybot on national TV to sell an unpopular deal would be a good idea. Corbyn has done the right thing by agreeing. I doubt he expects to be taken up on it.
Actually I don’t think that is the case. I suspect May realises that it’s cards-down time. She is fighting an uphill battle so she needs to introduce more unknowns to the equation. Whether it will work (I suspect not) is another thing entirely but I don’t actually believe that she only offered it because she thought it wouldn’t happen.
it does smack of desperation or, if she pulls it off - a brilliant gamble - for a vicar's daughter she certainly tries to play poker, I still think it will end in tears (bit like GE 2017)
Just what the world needs, another pointless conflict.
Ukraine should stop poking the bear; the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. There is now a vital bridge over the entrance to the Sea of Azov, linking the Russian territory of Crimea to the Russian mainland, which Russia needs to protect.
"the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. "
On what information do you base that? According to the BBC, the Sea of Azov is shared between Russia and Ukraine. The bridge itself is a geopolitical issue in several ways, one of which is that it bars ships over a certain size from entering the sea, meaning some Ukranian ports struggle.
Daodao is a troll. Best ignored.
Putin may have lost what little remained of his marbles, which is the really worrying news here.
The only reason I can think for Theresa May debating Brexit with Jeremy Corbyn is that it means she is not debating it with someone from her own party.
From the Indy: The High Court will rule as early as Christmas whether Brexit should be declared “void”, in a legal case given a turbo-boost by the criminal investigation into Leave funder Arron Banks. Judges are poised to fast track the potentially explosive challenge, after Theresa May’s refusal to act on the growing evidence of illegality in the 2016 referendum campaign, The Independent can reveal. Lawyers describe that failure as “absolutely extraordinary” – given the National Crime Agency’s (NCA) probe into suspicions of “multiple” criminal offences committed by Mr Banks and the Leave.EU campaign. Now The Independent understands the case is likely to move to a full hearing and a ruling within weeks of opening on 7 December, with the clock ticking on the UK’s departure from the EU next March.
Just what the world needs, another pointless conflict.
Ukraine should stop poking the bear; the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. There is now a vital bridge over the entrance to the Sea of Azov, linking the Russian territory of Crimea to the Russian mainland, which Russia needs to protect.
"the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. "
On what information do you base that? According to the BBC, the Sea of Azov is shared between Russia and Ukraine. The bridge itself is a geopolitical issue in several ways, one of which is that it bars ships over a certain size from entering the sea, meaning some Ukranian ports struggle.
Daodao is a troll. Best ignored.
Putin may have lost what little remained of his marbles, which is the really worrying news here.
PutinGuy1983 will be along in a minute to takeover the next shift.
From the Indy: The High Court will rule as early as Christmas whether Brexit should be declared “void”, in a legal case given a turbo-boost by the criminal investigation into Leave funder Arron Banks. Judges are poised to fast track the potentially explosive challenge, after Theresa May’s refusal to act on the growing evidence of illegality in the 2016 referendum campaign, The Independent can reveal. Lawyers describe that failure as “absolutely extraordinary” – given the National Crime Agency’s (NCA) probe into suspicions of “multiple” criminal offences committed by Mr Banks and the Leave.EU campaign. Now The Independent understands the case is likely to move to a full hearing and a ruling within weeks of opening on 7 December, with the clock ticking on the UK’s departure from the EU next March.
Wishful thinking. Unfortunately due to the earlier Miller case, the result of the referendum is moot as Parliament triggered Article 50.
Hamlet's expression about engineers and petards springs to mind.
Just what the world needs, another pointless conflict.
Ukraine should stop poking the bear; the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. There is now a vital bridge over the entrance to the Sea of Azov, linking the Russian territory of Crimea to the Russian mainland, which Russia needs to protect.
"the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. "
On what information do you base that? According to the BBC, the Sea of Azov is shared between Russia and Ukraine. The bridge itself is a geopolitical issue in several ways, one of which is that it bars ships over a certain size from entering the sea, meaning some Ukranian ports struggle.
Daodao is a troll. Best ignored.
Putin may have lost what little remained of his marbles, which is the really worrying news here.
Taking this naval skirmish along with the Russian air force's bombing in Syria over the weekend and the sudden death of the GRU chief and it does look like something is up in Moscow. Whether Putin is in control of it is the question for the Kremlinologists: is it Russian sabre-rattling or are the various service chiefs engaged in a power struggle?
Just what the world needs, another pointless conflict.
Ukraine should stop poking the bear; the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. There is now a vital bridge over the entrance to the Sea of Azov, linking the Russian territory of Crimea to the Russian mainland, which Russia needs to protect.
"the Ukrainian vessels failed to stop when requested to do so in Russian territorial waters. "
On what information do you base that? According to the BBC, the Sea of Azov is shared between Russia and Ukraine. The bridge itself is a geopolitical issue in several ways, one of which is that it bars ships over a certain size from entering the sea, meaning some Ukranian ports struggle.
Daodao is a troll. Best ignored.
Putin may have lost what little remained of his marbles, which is the really worrying news here.
Taking this naval skirmish along with the Russian air force's bombing in Syria over the weekend and the sudden death of the GRU chief and it does look like something is up in Moscow. Whether Putin is in control of it is the question for the Kremlinologists: is it Russian sabre-rattling or are the various service chiefs engaged in a power struggle?
My money's on the latter. I think we may just have underestimated how damaged Putin has been by his blunders over Salisbury.
Taking this naval skirmish along with the Russian air force's bombing in Syria over the weekend and the sudden death of the GRU chief and it does look like something is up in Moscow. Whether Putin is in control of it is the question for the Kremlinologists: is it Russian sabre-rattling or are the various service chiefs engaged in a power struggle?
Something is always up in Moscow. The regime's illegitimacy makes it fundamentally unstable and paranoid.
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
I am pretty sure that Remainers lost the referendum
From the Indy: The High Court will rule as early as Christmas whether Brexit should be declared “void”, in a legal case given a turbo-boost by the criminal investigation into Leave funder Arron Banks. Judges are poised to fast track the potentially explosive challenge, after Theresa May’s refusal to act on the growing evidence of illegality in the 2016 referendum campaign, The Independent can reveal. Lawyers describe that failure as “absolutely extraordinary” – given the National Crime Agency’s (NCA) probe into suspicions of “multiple” criminal offences committed by Mr Banks and the Leave.EU campaign. Now The Independent understands the case is likely to move to a full hearing and a ruling within weeks of opening on 7 December, with the clock ticking on the UK’s departure from the EU next March.
Wishful thinking. Unfortunately due to the earlier Miller case, the result of the referendum is moot as Parliament triggered Article 50.
Hamlet's expression about engineers and petards springs to mind.
The hypothetical fact that Parliament had decided to act in response to a referendum now found to be invalid would make it much easier for it to do a reverse ferret.
Mr. Doethur, I did wonder whether the Salisbury incident was a case of Putin losing his grip, either on sense or power. The nature of the attack could've killed hundreds or thousands of people. If Putin sanctioned it, his judgement is going. If he didn't, his power is.
Mr. Submarine, that's an interesting point. I do think making debates 'fair' is fraught with difficulty (and I dislike the electoral ones a lot).
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
I am pretty sure that Remainers lost the referendum
Everyone knows what Theresa May thinks about Brexit. Jeremy Corbyn would have to be exceptionally adroit not to reveal his thoughts on Brexit in a debate. He’ll win the debate and lose the politics as a result.
There were hints yesterday of how Corbyn would do this. It's a awful deal but if you commit to full Single Market and permanent Customs Union, I can accept the Withdrawal Agreement.
I can't see her agreeing to that. Her problem would then be that she always defines her take on Brexit as being the only possible one. Now Corbyn is saying his one is the only possible one of it's to get through parliament. He's happy to take it to an election at which point he has a relatively benign and straightforward form of Brexit to campaign on while May's presumed successor will be leading a badly split party.
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
I am pretty sure that Remainers lost the referendum
On the positive side May has finally realised that it is an important part of her job as PM to lead and persuade. She has really been putting herself about over the last week or so trying to make her case.
On the negative side she is still pretty crap at persuading people of anything. She is also useless at building a team, getting a consistent line to take, making good choices of people for positions, exercising judgment, negotiating, preparing for people not agreeing with her etc etc.
From Corbyn's point of view I see very little upside in this. He is thick and ignorant. He depends on his gut for his view of the world and it is not in alignment with the vast majority of his party on this. He really doesn't do detail. Labour's 6 tests are so ridiculous that even May could take them apart. Her real battle is with her own party. Why would Corbyn not want to keep it that way?
Not going to happen.
No, but he wouldn't find it hard even so. He found just list all the criticisms her party including cabinet members have For it. It's not enough for her to dissect his ideas she needs to sell hers and knowing detail doesn't help.
As for why not a referendum it's because one shouldn't be necessary. But also this may be preparing the way for one once parliament votes her down.
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
I am pretty sure that Remainers lost the referendum
Last time, but not next time
But the time after that?
Remainers win the next time because we will be voting to remain out of the EU.
Then there is the question of whether the broadcasters should be allowed to do a May/Corbyn debate. Remainers will go bonkers as both are committed to leaving. Other parties will go bonkers especially the SNP. We aren't in a GE period so none of the RotPA/OFCOM rules apply. Because broadcasters would be legally allowed to run an utterly biased debate doesn't mean they should. I'd expect an unholy alliance of Remainers and hard Brexiters to raise hell and probably an OFCOM challenge and legal action.
There is no 'remain' rights here. They don't have any legal identity or standing, so I think you're on to a misnomer here.
That man Leach strikes again. This time it's a runout but they all count.
Are we seeing Rashid's Test career ending - again?
He's been more than handy with the bat in this series but he needs some wickets, as do England. It's getting way closer than I expected at the close of play yesterday.
On the positive side May has finally realised that it is an important part of her job as PM to lead and persuade. She has really been putting herself about over the last week or so trying to make her case.
On the negative side she is still pretty crap at persuading people of anything. She is also useless at building a team, getting a consistent line to take, making good choices of people for positions, exercising judgment, negotiating, preparing for people not agreeing with her etc etc.
From Corbyn's point of view I see very little upside in this. He is thick and ignorant. He depends on his gut for his view of the world and it is not in alignment with the vast majority of his party on this. He really doesn't do detail. Labour's 6 tests are so ridiculous that even May could take them apart. Her real battle is with her own party. Why would Corbyn not want to keep it that way?
Not going to happen.
No, but he wouldn't find it hard even so. He found just list all the criticisms her party including cabinet members have For it. It's not enough for her to dissect his ideas she needs to sell hers and knowing detail doesn't help.
As for why not a referendum it's because one shouldn't be necessary. But also this may be preparing the way for one once parliament votes her down.
Pointing out the divisions in the Tory ranks is fish in a barrel but it is hardly news. He would be pressed to explain what he would do at which point we move into fantasy land and laughter.
Comments
She’ll earn respect for calling for it and doing it. Whether she can win anyone over through it is another matter.
I think she just sees it as her duty to take all necessary steps to maximise the chances of success.
Putin may have lost what little remained of his marbles, which is the really worrying news here.
Hamlet's expression about engineers and petards springs to mind.
Mr. Doethur, I did wonder whether the Salisbury incident was a case of Putin losing his grip, either on sense or power. The nature of the attack could've killed hundreds or thousands of people. If Putin sanctioned it, his judgement is going. If he didn't, his power is.
Mr. Submarine, that's an interesting point. I do think making debates 'fair' is fraught with difficulty (and I dislike the electoral ones a lot).
What's the timetable for voting in Parliament?
I can't see her agreeing to that. Her problem would then be that she always defines her take on Brexit as being the only possible one. Now Corbyn is saying his one is the only possible one of it's to get through parliament. He's happy to take it to an election at which point he has a relatively benign and straightforward form of Brexit to campaign on while May's presumed successor will be leading a badly split party.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46336772
Should have thought about that before caving in to a shitty deal then, luv....
Are we seeing Rashid's Test career ending - again?
As for why not a referendum it's because one shouldn't be necessary. But also this may be preparing the way for one once parliament votes her down.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46341310