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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,003

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
    That is a bit like saying the second warmest place in Siberia in winter, not much of a trophy
    This year, at least, both Ventnor and Eastbourne have been extremely sunny.
    Tiree in the Outer Hebs has the most sunshine hours in the UK.
    Nonsense. Just a few minutes on Google will establish that the crown of sunniest place is fought between places along the south coast from Eastbourne through IOW to the West Country.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.
    Why not Corbyn. He is as divided as conservatives and he is the leader of the opposition who have a big say in this
    Because , they both agree we should leave in March 2019.

    A real debate would be with a leader who disagrees and wants to remain.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    HYUFD said:


    The May as Chamberlain comparisons are already starting, Boris clearly thinks he is Churchill

    You can pretty much guarantee anyone with an X in their twitter handle is an idiot - firstly for falling for Trump's bollocks about them being censored, and then keeping it there despite getting responses to said posts.
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
    That is a bit like saying the second warmest place in Siberia in winter, not much of a trophy
    This year, at least, both Ventnor and Eastbourne have been extremely sunny.
    Tiree in the Outer Hebs has the most sunshine hours in the UK.
    *cough*
    Inner.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,596
    Back when, Corbyn avoided Brexit in PMQs . No longer. He doesn't win every time, but usually he does. It isn't particularly difficult for him.
  • Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.
    Why not Corbyn. He is as divided as conservatives and he is the leader of the opposition who have a big say in this
    Because , they both agree we should leave in March 2019.

    A real debate would be with a leader who disagrees and wants to remain.
    Corbyn rides both horses
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 16,525
    TudorRose said:

    IanB2 said:

    On topic the optics of this sound like a horrible idea for TMay. Corbyn should bite her hand off. Corbyn can pick up on a few nice, easy-to-understand criticisms with some basis in truth. You can't defend against those with detailed knowledge of the minutiae. I wonder if the point is less to win the debate than to set up Corbyn as the opposition instead of her own party, to help put pressure on them to work with her against the enemy.

    IF (a big one) the story is true, I reckon the Tories would be counting on Corbyn refusing. As you say, knowledge of the detail isn't the key to winning a public debate - just look how Clegg came unstuck against Farage despite his greater knowledge of how the EU actually benefits Britain.
    Wasn't the point that Farage had a greater knowledge of how the EU doesn't benefit Britain?
    Precisely. Clegg just chuntered on about W G Grace and the Empire.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,807
    TudorRose said:

    Yorkcity said:

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.
    Why not Corbyn. He is as divided as conservatives and he is the leader of the opposition who have a big say in this
    More to the point he has already said that his party will vote against the deal which may/will consign it to defeat. He should be held accountable for that decision on such an important issue for the country as a whole.
    Or he may turn out to have saved the country from May's perfidy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,746
    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?
  • FPT:

    matt said:

    Difficult to think of two politicians who are more likely to say NO to this than Corbyn and May at the moment.

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1066365345043308546

    What would they be debating?
    The Schleswig-Holstein question?
    That was finally solved in 1920 :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig_plebiscites,_1920
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    G
    FF43 said:

    Back when, Corbyn avoided Brexit in PMQs . No longer. He doesn't win every time, but usually he does. It isn't particularly difficult for him.

    He reads questions scripted by others. He doesn’t, as far as I can tell, rework questions on the fly to reflect and take advantage of earlier answers.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,596
    edited November 2018
    The key lesson for Gibraltar is that if you are lucky enough to be a goose laying golden eggs it's sensible to offer eggs generously to those that think the eggs belong to them and are in a position to kill you.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,807
    edited November 2018
    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    what channel was it on David
    PS assume will be on netflix or Amazon
    PPS: I saw it on the big screen and it was excellent
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,306
    FF43 said:

    The key lesson for Gibraltar is that if you are lucky enough to be a goose laying golden eggs it's sensible to offer eggs generously to those that think the eggs belong to them and are in a position to kill you.

    And when they want more?
  • DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
  • TudorRose said:

    IanB2 said:

    On topic the optics of this sound like a horrible idea for TMay. Corbyn should bite her hand off. Corbyn can pick up on a few nice, easy-to-understand criticisms with some basis in truth. You can't defend against those with detailed knowledge of the minutiae. I wonder if the point is less to win the debate than to set up Corbyn as the opposition instead of her own party, to help put pressure on them to work with her against the enemy.

    IF (a big one) the story is true, I reckon the Tories would be counting on Corbyn refusing. As you say, knowledge of the detail isn't the key to winning a public debate - just look how Clegg came unstuck against Farage despite his greater knowledge of how the EU actually benefits Britain.
    Wasn't the point that Farage had a greater knowledge of how the EU doesn't benefit Britain?
    Precisely. Clegg just chuntered on about W G Grace and the Empire.
    One reason that didn't work is that few people know who W G Grace was and were confused by the argument.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,807
    edited November 2018

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    It was very schmaltzy for sure, otherwise excellent
  • Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290
    edited November 2018
    Sounds amusing but I don't see the benefit to Corbyn. If more people generally were in favour of the deal, and particularly more within Labour, then perhaps he'd feel a bit of pressure for refusing to debate it in detail about what he doesn't like, but so many people don't like it I doubt people would mind if he doesn't bother. And in fairness he will have a list of key critical points without reading it, handily provided by Tory rebels and serving Cabinet members who leak to the press about their dissatisfaction. Knowing more of the detail is not a necessary tactic to win a debate.

    Great news that she’s prepared to put her deal up to public scrutiny like this. Makes you wonder why she’s so frit of having a public vote on it...

    Well it shouldn't be necessary since parliament is sovereign, but obviously it's because it would lose. It has very little chance of being supported in a public vote because it has been trashed by left and right as a pile of old crap. The only question mark is what it would be up against, and the implications if one of the options is not included.<
    Yorkcity said:


    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.

    I find this to be such a lazy attitude. Yes, the Tories are much more divided over Europe and they are the ones in power (for a few months more at least) and therefore have to accept the responsibility for how things develop. But Brexit is about everybody, what Labour do and think about it matters, particularly with the parliamentary arithmetic and the not inconsequential chance they may be in power soon, so that the Tories are bitterly divided over this and really should just split is not the sole takeaway that matters right now. These things should cross party lines more, frankly, and a focus on partisan issues is really having the wrong priorities.

    In terms of any potential debate, of course one will not happen, but it does in fact make more sense for May to debate Corbyn and not Rees Mogg, since she has already tried to get her party on board with her plans, unsuccessfully (no, it doesn't matter if a majority back it), and Labour are the ones with the power to see it passed. They won't, they see no need to, but since May is at least attempting to appear like she wants everybody on board with this plan, it makes total sense that the leader of the largest bloc of MPs who is refusing to back it, for perhaps good reasons but also including nakedly partisan reasons (that they want a GE), would appear to be a not unreasonable stance.

    Yes it wouldn't work, but sometimes being willing to make the attempt to reach out and convince is worth doing, even if it is just to assure herself and everybody that she tried.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,118

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    It was total rubbish. Contextually.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,596
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The key lesson for Gibraltar is that if you are lucky enough to be a goose laying golden eggs it's sensible to offer eggs generously to those that think the eggs belong to them and are in a position to kill you.

    And when they want more?
    You come to deal to make it worth the other party keep your setup in place. It's the same for any small anomalous entity next to a much larger one. In my view the UK's commitment to Gibraltar should be limited to preventing any invasion or blockade of essential supplies. Then leave it up to Gibraltar to make the best accommodation it can with Spain. I don't see why we should maintain a tax haven that acts against Spain's interest or support the first minister of Gibraltar when he insults Spanish officials.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    It was very schmaltzy for sure, otherwise excellent

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    One of the conditions of being a PB Tory is disliking the tube scene in Darkest Hour, and mentioning your dislike of it at every given opportunity on PB.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    Sir Keir Starmer is preparing for the role.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,118
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The key lesson for Gibraltar is that if you are lucky enough to be a goose laying golden eggs it's sensible to offer eggs generously to those that think the eggs belong to them and are in a position to kill you.

    And when they want more?
    You come to deal to make it worth the other party keep your setup in place. It's the same for any small anomalous entity next to a much larger one. In my view the UK's commitment to Gibraltar should be limited to preventing any invasion or blockade of essential supplies. Then leave it up to Gibraltar to make the best accommodation it can with Spain. I don't see why we should maintain a tax haven that acts against Spain's interest or support the first minister of Gibraltar when he insults Spanish officials.
    Useful site for gambling companies, though!
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Anazina said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    It was very schmaltzy for sure, otherwise excellent

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    One of the conditions of being a PB Tory is disliking the tube scene in Darkest Hour, and mentioning your dislike of it at every given opportunity on PB.
    Or the Darkie-est hour, as they think of it.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Is Brexit going to even still be around by the middle of December?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290
    Anazina said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    It was very schmaltzy for sure, otherwise excellent

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    One of the conditions of being a PB Tory is disliking the tube scene in Darkest Hour, and mentioning your dislike of it at every given opportunity on PB.
    I don't get it, personally. It's a movie, there's going to be bits that are, lacking a better word, too movie like. It's not like I sat there, saw that scene, and just went 'this is nonsense'. But each to their own, I liked Overlord for crying out loud.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290
    edited November 2018

    Is Brexit going to even still be around by the middle of December?

    Yes, because even cancelling it, somehow, will take a few weeks at least! (I am sure you were entirely serious of course).
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,090

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
  • Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    To which the obvious reply is that he softpedalled to remain, and he's doing the same now. As much ridicule from his own benches as the gov't's.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Kle4


    You need to keep up.

    Everybody eligable had a vote in the referendum in 2016.
    Now what everybody thinks does not matter.
    As what should always happen is the governing party with its elected representatives ,make the appropriate decisions on trade and treaties.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290
    Yorkcity said:

    Kle4


    You need to keep up.

    Everybody eligable had a vote in the referendum in 2016.
    Now what everybody thinks does not matter.
    As what should always happen is the governing party with its elected representatives ,make the appropriate decisions on trade and treaties.

    Well thanks for not being totally condescending.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,118
    edited November 2018
    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    It was very schmaltzy for sure, otherwise excellent

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    One of the conditions of being a PB Tory is disliking the tube scene in Darkest Hour, and mentioning your dislike of it at every given opportunity on PB.
    I don't get it, personally. It's a movie, there's going to be bits that are, lacking a better word, too movie like. It's not like I sat there, saw that scene, and just went 'this is nonsense'. But each to their own, I liked Overlord for crying out loud.
    Well, I don't think anyone on PB has ever accused me of being a Tory, and I didn't like the scene. It just 'wasn't Churchill", as I understood him.
    Nor were the 'honest working class, salt of the earth, Brits' in the train typical of what I recalled from the mid-40's.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,414

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    Clegg can't help dissembling and talking down to people so it shouldn't have been a surprise he came off second best. Even his use of language was patronising, for example referring to "something called the Lisbon treaty" as if he thought the audience shouldn't bother themselves with the details.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,118

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    Clegg can't help dissembling and talking down to people so it shouldn't have been a surprise he came off second best. Even his use of language was patronising, for example referring to "something called the Lisbon treaty" as if he thought the audience shouldn't bother themselves with the details.
    One of the minor tragedies of the late 20th/early 21st Century is Charlie Kennedy's failure to come to terms with booze.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Kle4


    You need to keep up.

    Everybody eligable had a vote in the referendum in 2016.
    Now what everybody thinks does not matter.
    As what should always happen is the governing party with its elected representatives ,make the appropriate decisions on trade and treaties.

    Well thanks for not being totally condescending.
    Well stop calling people lazy then.
  • Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    Avoid the biggest subject in politics today. With respect Nick you are being partisan
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,440
    2019 GE just above 6-4 on Betfair - 2019 is clear favourite but only a 40% chance.

    Anyone surprised it's not a bit shorter - it does appear the Govt is heading for a complete impasse and whatever route it tries to go down it's going to be impossible to get anything through the Commons.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,244

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    Clegg can't help dissembling and talking down to people so it shouldn't have been a surprise he came off second best. Even his use of language was patronising, for example referring to "something called the Lisbon treaty" as if he thought the audience shouldn't bother themselves with the details.
    The problem in that debate, and indeed nearly all others including this proposal, is that soundbites and pointscoring count more than patient nuanced fact based discussion.

    May will be like a rabbit in the headlights as Corbyn brings austerity into every answer. He would bury her, not with facts but with rhetoric.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
  • Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    It’s not much of an answer: the public have had ample voting opportunities recently. Or does the leader of the opposition need an election to get out of bed?
  • What "Tube scene"?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,244
    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    With an Irish backstop border in the Irish Sea...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,414
    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    There's no time to implement a Canada style deal before the transition runs out. It points to a Norway style deal with some clever obfuscation of what it really means.
  • Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    With an Irish backstop border in the Irish Sea...
    Charles means for the FP, so the risk is not a border in the Irish sea but on the island itself.

    There is still hope that, in a few years, a technological solution is vailable. I know Charles thinks so.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,884

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    Avoid the biggest subject in politics today. With respect Nick you are being partisan
    May agreeing to a debate about 18 months too late. It has the whiff of desperation. Why not get the cabinet up there. That would be good.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    There's no time to implement a Canada style deal before the transition runs out. It points to a Norway style deal with some clever obfuscation of what it really means.
    The Deal does end free movement for GB after the transition period, the Customs Union does not require free movement and the backstop will see GB stay in the Customs Union not the single market, though some elements of the single market will apply to NI
  • Jonathan said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    Avoid the biggest subject in politics today. With respect Nick you are being partisan
    May agreeing to a debate about 18 months too late. It has the whiff of desperation. Why not get the cabinet up there. That would be good.
    Why do labour supporters want to deflect from the issue.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I don't really see this as a serious runner , and would only be suggested as a desperate attempt to get Theresa May out of a hole. There was no debate between party leaders at the time of the Referendum nor did May participate when the opportunity was available at the General Election. Tony Blair never offered to debate with party leaders opposed to the Iraq War, and neither did Thatcher & Major in relation to ERM entry. It would be little more than a smokescreen to cover up the divisions within her own ranks.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited November 2018

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    The tube scene was bad but imo some of the speeches were rather oddly delivered as well.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=skrdyoabmgA
  • Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    Clegg can't help dissembling and talking down to people so it shouldn't have been a surprise he came off second best. Even his use of language was patronising, for example referring to "something called the Lisbon treaty" as if he thought the audience shouldn't bother themselves with the details.
    The problem in that debate, and indeed nearly all others including this proposal, is that soundbites and pointscoring count more than patient nuanced fact based discussion.

    May will be like a rabbit in the headlights as Corbyn brings austerity into every answer. He would bury her, not with facts but with rhetoric.
    Impartial as ever Dr Fox. If you are so confident why not support it
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,884

    Jonathan said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    Avoid the biggest subject in politics today. With respect Nick you are being partisan
    May agreeing to a debate about 18 months too late. It has the whiff of desperation. Why not get the cabinet up there. That would be good.
    Why do labour supporters want to deflect from the issue.
    It not deflecting, it’s just a little embarrassing that May is reduced to this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,244
    edited November 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    There's no time to implement a Canada style deal before the transition runs out. It points to a Norway style deal with some clever obfuscation of what it really means.
    The Deal does end free movement for GB after the transition period, the Customs Union does not require free movement and the backstop will see GB stay in the Customs Union not the single market, though some elements of the single market will apply to NI
    We do not yet know what is in the post Transition Deal. It may well be that preferential migration may feature, particularly if that deal is after the fall of the Tory government.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,244

    Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    Clegg can't help dissembling and talking down to people so it shouldn't have been a surprise he came off second best. Even his use of language was patronising, for example referring to "something called the Lisbon treaty" as if he thought the audience shouldn't bother themselves with the details.
    The problem in that debate, and indeed nearly all others including this proposal, is that soundbites and pointscoring count more than patient nuanced fact based discussion.

    May will be like a rabbit in the headlights as Corbyn brings austerity into every answer. He would bury her, not with facts but with rhetoric.
    Impartial as ever Dr Fox. If you are so confident why not support it
    I cannot see the point myself, particularly as it would be most likely to be after the Parliamentary vote, but would watch with popcorn.

    May is a poor performer in these situations, and knows it.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    The tube scene was bad but imo some of the speeches were rather oddly delivered as well.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=skrdyoabmgA
    Beyond that there were quite a few historical inaccuracies . Churchill ,in reality, did not receive the summons to the Palace whilst at Chartwell - he was actually at the Admiralty. Similarly Chamberlain had not been diagnosed with his terminal illness by late May/early June 1940.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,746
    edited November 2018

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    matt said:

    G

    FF43 said:

    Back when, Corbyn avoided Brexit in PMQs . No longer. He doesn't win every time, but usually he does. It isn't particularly difficult for him.

    He reads questions scripted by others. He doesn’t, as far as I can tell, rework questions on the fly to reflect and take advantage of earlier answers.
    Given that the Spanish government has recently authorised the use of force against its own population, it shouldn’t be surprising they want to emulate Franco in another way
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.

    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    Clegg can't help dissembling and talking down to people so it shouldn't have been a surprise he came off second best. Even his use of language was patronising, for example referring to "something called the Lisbon treaty" as if he thought the audience shouldn't bother themselves with the details.
    The problem in that debate, and indeed nearly all others including this proposal, is that soundbites and pointscoring count more than patient nuanced fact based discussion.

    May will be like a rabbit in the headlights as Corbyn brings austerity into every answer. He would bury her, not with facts but with rhetoric.
    Impartial as ever Dr Fox. If you are so confident why not support it
    Surely the other party leaders , DUP, SNP, Lib Dems etc would ask to be involved .?

    Anyways I do not think Corbyn would be shaking in his boots to be up against May.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,345
    Charles said:

    matt said:

    G

    FF43 said:

    Back when, Corbyn avoided Brexit in PMQs . No longer. He doesn't win every time, but usually he does. It isn't particularly difficult for him.

    He reads questions scripted by others. He doesn’t, as far as I can tell, rework questions on the fly to reflect and take advantage of earlier answers.
    Given that the Spanish government has recently authorised the use of force against its own population, it shouldn’t be surprising they want to emulate Franco in another way
    It's not the same government.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,884
    The Darkest Hour 2, the Brexit years is amazing. Judy Denchs portrayal of Mays decent into talking to herself in made up debates is only over shadowed by Danny Dyers Cameron flashback pig scene.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    A further inaccuracy ,however, is that the film shows the Labour leadership sitting on the Opposition benches even after having joined the Coalition Government! That was nonsense, of course.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,244
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    Just a different view of what the national interest is.

    It is not for the Labour party to rescue the Tories have from the hole that they dug for themselves.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,746
    edited November 2018
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    what channel was it on David
    PS assume will be on netflix or Amazon
    PPS: I saw it on the big screen and it was excellent
    It was on Sky cinema Malcolm. My son, who didn’t see it at the cinema, loved it. For me, for all of Churchill’s brilliant speeches the “baddie” Halifax gets the best line of the film. When asked what just happened he replies: “ we have mobilised the English language and sent it off to war”.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
    Halifax was also acceptable to Labour.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    Avoid the biggest subject in politics today. With respect Nick you are being partisan
    May agreeing to a debate about 18 months too late. It has the whiff of desperation. Why not get the cabinet up there. That would be good.
    Why do labour supporters want to deflect from the issue.
    It not deflecting, it’s just a little embarrassing that May is reduced to this.
    For you maybe - but then anything TM does you will not like
  • HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    There's no time to implement a Canada style deal before the transition runs out. It points to a Norway style deal with some clever obfuscation of what it really means.
    The Deal does end free movement for GB after the transition period, the Customs Union does not require free movement and the backstop will see GB stay in the Customs Union not the single market, though some elements of the single market will apply to NI
    Staying in the (or rather 'a') customs union but not the single market is a genuinely dumb idea. It puts us in the same boat as Turkey which is pretty disastrous for trade.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    The key lesson for Gibraltar is that if you are lucky enough to be a goose laying golden eggs it's sensible to offer eggs generously to those that think the eggs belong to them and are in a position to kill you.

    And when they want more?
    You come to deal to make it worth the other party keep your setup in place. It's the same for any small anomalous entity next to a much larger one. In my view the UK's commitment to Gibraltar should be limited to preventing any invasion or blockade of essential supplies. Then leave it up to Gibraltar to make the best accommodation it can with Spain. I don't see why we should maintain a tax haven that acts against Spain's interest or support the first minister of Gibraltar when he insults Spanish officials.
    Kind of funny that Spain is allowed to continually try to renegotiate a treaty but it would be unacceptable for the U.K. to do so
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.
    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    He did, in terms of facts and arguments. What he wasn`t really prepared for was Farage`s lack of manners.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    Shame then that Churchill called Atlee "A modest man with much to be modest about "
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,746

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
    Indeed and kept him in it too. Their determination to fight and defeat Hitler was absolutely unqualified. When people argue who are greatest PMs were and mention Attlee I remember his war record and nod.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    There's no time to implement a Canada style deal before the transition runs out. It points to a Norway style deal with some clever obfuscation of what it really means.
    The Deal does end free movement for GB after the transition period, the Customs Union does not require free movement and the backstop will see GB stay in the Customs Union not the single market, though some elements of the single market will apply to NI
    Staying in the (or rather 'a') customs union but not the single market is a genuinely dumb idea. It puts us in the same boat as Turkey which is pretty disastrous for trade.
    It is pretty much the basis of the Deal and getting trade deals dictated to us from China and the USA is not what most Leave voters were voting for
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    With an Irish backstop border in the Irish Sea...
    Charles means for the FP, so the risk is not a border in the Irish sea but on the island itself.

    There is still hope that, in a few years, a technological solution is vailable. I know Charles thinks so.
    The way through the impasse is to write into the WA an obligation for the EU and UK to make a join application to the WTO for a ruling that they can treat the Irish border differently to other borders because of the legacy issues
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Halifax and Chamberlain were both treated unfairly in the film. There was never a serious plot to oust Churchill in the way suggested - though Halifax did consider resignation. Chamberlain was never firmly in the Halifax camp in that he never went beyond sitting on the fence before joining Attlee & Greenwood by coming out in full support of Churchill.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    There's no time to implement a Canada style deal before the transition runs out. It points to a Norway style deal with some clever obfuscation of what it really means.
    The Deal does end free movement for GB after the transition period, the Customs Union does not require free movement and the backstop will see GB stay in the Customs Union not the single market, though some elements of the single market will apply to NI
    We do not yet know what is in the post Transition Deal. It may well be that preferential migration may feature, particularly if that deal is after the fall of the Tory government.
    Only under a Labour PM
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,746
    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    A further inaccuracy ,however, is that the film shows the Labour leadership sitting on the Opposition benches even after having joined the Coalition Government! That was nonsense, of course.

    I wondered about that. As all parties came together presumably some of the MPs had to sit on the other side. Attlee is beside Churchill.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    geoffw said:

    Charles said:

    matt said:

    G

    FF43 said:

    Back when, Corbyn avoided Brexit in PMQs . No longer. He doesn't win every time, but usually he does. It isn't particularly difficult for him.

    He reads questions scripted by others. He doesn’t, as far as I can tell, rework questions on the fly to reflect and take advantage of earlier answers.
    Given that the Spanish government has recently authorised the use of force against its own population, it shouldn’t be surprising they want to emulate Franco in another way
    It's not the same government.
    I know
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    Leavers don’t get to define the national interest. The EU is not Nazi Germany and leaving the EU does not have to be done on the terms of committed Leavers (indeed, they can’t agree among themselves). Labour owe the government nothing in relation to Brexit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited November 2018

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
    Churchill was of course a Liberal for much of his career and while a great war leader his electoral record as Tory leader in peacetime was not great, he lost 2 general elections in 1945 and 1950 to Attlee and beat Attlee once in 1951.


    If May is Chamberlain then is Hammond Halifax and given Corbyn's commitment to accept the Brexit vote is he Attlee to Boris' Churchill?


    In which case now May has her Munich Deal is this 1939 with Boris taking over next year as PM on a No Deal 'no surrender to Brussels' ticket?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,746
    Jonathan said:

    The Darkest Hour 2, the Brexit years is amazing. Judy Denchs portrayal of Mays decent into talking to herself in made up debates is only over shadowed by Danny Dyers Cameron flashback pig scene.


    LOL. Very good.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,929

    What "Tube scene"?

    The one where the unicorn runs thru the wooded snowscene and Dallas is found bonded into the wall of Nostromo, this proving to Churchill that he is a replicant. he later goes on to defend Moscow against the zombies.
  • justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
    Halifax was also acceptable to Labour.
    More that Chamberlain was unacceptable. Without knowing chapter and verse (which you may) I'd not want to speculate on Labour's attitude to Halifax who was always an unlikely choice because he was, of course, in the House of Lords. Since Halifax himself recognised this effectively ruled him out, how seriously did Labour consider it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,244
    justin124 said:

    Halifax and Chamberlain were both treated unfairly in the film. There was never a serious plot to oust Churchill in the way suggested - though Halifax did consider resignation. Chamberlain was never firmly in the Halifax camp in that he never went beyond sitting on the fence before joining Attlee & Greenwood by coming out in full support of Churchill.

    Halifax also was kept on by Churchill as Foreign Secretary, and later as ambassador to the USA until the end of the war.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,414
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
    Which is why we will have a Canada style deal
    With an Irish backstop border in the Irish Sea...
    Charles means for the FP, so the risk is not a border in the Irish sea but on the island itself.

    There is still hope that, in a few years, a technological solution is vailable. I know Charles thinks so.
    The way through the impasse is to write into the WA an obligation for the EU and UK to make a join application to the WTO for a ruling that they can treat the Irish border differently to other borders because of the legacy issues
    Normally a way through is supposed to at least pay lip service to the other side's concerns.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,848
    justin124 said:

    Halifax and Chamberlain were both treated unfairly in the film. There was never a serious plot to oust Churchill in the way suggested - though Halifax did consider resignation. Chamberlain was never firmly in the Halifax camp in that he never went beyond sitting on the fence before joining Attlee & Greenwood by coming out in full support of Churchill.

    On the subject of Chamberlain, Robert Harris's Munich is a great book, and whilst obviously a fictionalised account of Chamberlain's peace efforts it did lead me to consider that he was probably just trying to do the best for the country in very difficult circumstances ahaed of the way.

    He has probably been portayed unfairly harshly by many accounts.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 40,992
    edited November 2018
    DavidL said:



    It was on Sky cinema Malcolm. My son, who didn’t see it at the cinema, loved it. For me, for all of Churchill’s brilliant speeches the “baddie” Halifax gets the best line of the film. When asked what just happened he replies: “ we have mobilised the English language and sent it off to war”.

    Not Halifax, but in fact Edward R. Murrow:

    https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/quotes/quotes-faq/
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,884
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Darkest Hour 2, the Brexit years is amazing. Judy Denchs portrayal of Mays decent into talking to herself in made up debates is only over shadowed by Danny Dyers Cameron flashback pig scene.


    LOL. Very good.
    Did you spot Boris Johnson’s cameo as the pig? With that exposure he looked like the cat that got the cream.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    justin124 said:

    Halifax and Chamberlain were both treated unfairly in the film. There was never a serious plot to oust Churchill in the way suggested - though Halifax did consider resignation. Chamberlain was never firmly in the Halifax camp in that he never went beyond sitting on the fence before joining Attlee & Greenwood by coming out in full support of Churchill.

    On the subject of Chamberlain, Robert Harris's Munich is a great book, and whilst obviously a fictionalised account of Chamberlain's peace efforts it did lead me to consider that he was probably just trying to do the best for the country in very difficult circumstances ahaed of the way.

    He has probably been portayed unfairly harshly by many accounts.
    Much as May is now, Chamberlain like May had an almost impossible hand to play
  • NotchNotch Posts: 145
    edited November 2018
    What's the point of a debate between May and Corbyn outside of the Commons unless they are campaigning either in a GE or a referendum? This seems like a desperate Tory attempt to use one of their few strong cards. What are people supposed to do after they've heard the debate? Vote on Twitter? Call their MP? Corbyn should say he rejects the politics of showmanship and that he is only willing to debate her outside of the House if she shows the courage to call a GE (or referendum, if that suits better, but probably a GE given Labour's positioning). In short, let the voters decide. How will she respond - by calling him frit?

    Meanwhile, MPs who say they back a referendum number roughly

    59 SNP
    44 Lab
    12 LibDem
    8 Con
    total 123.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
    Halifax was also acceptable to Labour.
    More that Chamberlain was unacceptable. Without knowing chapter and verse (which you may) I'd not want to speculate on Labour's attitude to Halifax who was always an unlikely choice because he was, of course, in the House of Lords. Since Halifax himself recognised this effectively ruled him out, how seriously did Labour consider it?
    Quite a few Labour people were initially more favourably disposed towards Halifax than to Churchill. Many shared the distrust of the latter that was widespread on the Tory benches at the time.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    Leavers don’t get to define the national interest. The EU is not Nazi Germany and leaving the EU does not have to be done on the terms of committed Leavers (indeed, they can’t agree among themselves). Labour owe the government nothing in relation to Brexit.
    It's difficult to say Labour are acting in the national interest when they can't agree with each other and have made a point of not adopting any single position for the last two years. Corbyn even says he doesn't know how he would vote in a second referendum.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,848
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    It was Labour who got Churchill the top job. Tories neither liked nor trusted the serial turncoat and rebel who'd spent the past decade attacking the Conservative government, and not just over rearmament.
    Churchill was of course a Liberal for much of his career and while a great war leader his electoral record as Tory leader in peacetime was not great, he lost 2 general elections in 1945 and 1950 to Attlee and beat Attlee once in 1951.


    If May is Chamberlain then is Hammond Halifax and given Corbyn's commitment to accept the Brexit vote is he Attlee to Boris' Churchill?


    In which case now May has her Munich Deal is this 1939 with Boris taking over next year as PM on a No Deal 'no surrender to Brussels' ticket?
    Somehow I think all Brexit comparisons to the Second World War enormously trivialise the horror of that conflict.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,848
    edited November 2018

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rewatching The Darkest Hour tonight. Where is the Attlee of our days?

    The stupid tube scene totally ruins it for me.
    Tbh I found that a lot less annoying on the TV than I did in the cinema. It’s a superb film and an unbelievable performance.

    But I couldn’t stop reflecting on the role that Attlee played and the absolutely unequivocal support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. To see the curs running Labour today so uninterested in the National interest today is so sad.
    Leavers don’t get to define the national interest. The EU is not Nazi Germany and leaving the EU does not have to be done on the terms of committed Leavers (indeed, they can’t agree among themselves). Labour owe the government nothing in relation to Brexit.
    It's difficult to say Labour are acting in the national interest when they can't agree with each other and have made a point of not adopting any single position for the last two years. Corbyn even says he doesn't know how he would vote in a second referendum.
    Who then, amongst our politicians, is acting in the national interest?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,884
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Halifax and Chamberlain were both treated unfairly in the film. There was never a serious plot to oust Churchill in the way suggested - though Halifax did consider resignation. Chamberlain was never firmly in the Halifax camp in that he never went beyond sitting on the fence before joining Attlee & Greenwood by coming out in full support of Churchill.

    On the subject of Chamberlain, Robert Harris's Munich is a great book, and whilst obviously a fictionalised account of Chamberlain's peace efforts it did lead me to consider that he was probably just trying to do the best for the country in very difficult circumstances ahaed of the way.

    He has probably been portayed unfairly harshly by many accounts.
    Much as May is now, Chamberlain like May had an almost impossible hand to play
    Mays problems are self inflicted, Chamberlains were anything but.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,929
    edited November 2018
    PClipp said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Jeremy Corbyn would probably win the debate and lose the politics as he showed his hand. He is doing much better not disclosing his views on Brexit with any clarity. But declining would also be embarrassing.

    The idea is unusually good politics from Theresa May. Presumably it is someone else’s.

    He should say he'll be glad to debate her on the hustings in a General Election - name the day!
    He could say that. However, I don’t think most people want an election in the winter.
    I think Jeremy’s double-digit IQ would be revealed in a 1-on-1 debate. I do hope May proposes it.
    As has already been pointed out, most of us thought that Clegg would easily handle Farage.
    He did, in terms of facts and arguments. What he wasn`t really prepared for was Farage`s lack of manners.
    It's an interesting and perhaps understudied encounter. Clegg was originally thought by the commentariat to have won the encounter, but the below-the-line commentators were vehemently pro-Farage and it is this view that has come into favour.

    We used to have public arguments and experts tell us who won, now we have arguments and a large screaming crowd on Twitter and below-the-line declare the winner by force of shouting.

    If I ever go into politics (you have my full permission to shoot me if I do) i will go armed with many thousands (millions?) of virtual personas and bots - you can buy or manufacture them - and shout down all opposition and before people know what has happened I will have won
  • The irony is that if Theresa May had been prepared to debate Corbyn last year she could have won a healthy majority, she may not have panicked into agreeing the EU's scheduling on day one (neutering 'the fight of the summer') or panicked into agreeing the backstop. The whole negotiation may have turned out differently.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290
    Just to apologize to Yorkcity - he wasn't really being condescending, I was just being a bit precious.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,475
    It is *wild* how right wingers, who for years have droned on about "personal responsibility" and how "choices have consequences" and "with rights come responsibilities" are now spectacularly frothing themselves into rage at the consequences of Brexit.

    Brexit means risking Northern Ireland? If only someone had warned us.

    Brexit means giving Spain leverage over us with regard to Gibraltar? Don't they know who we are?

    Choices have consequences.

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