If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
I've just deredded him on the next PM market, he seems relatively secure and May seems to have sured up her position. When you add in the real probability of the whole shebang being collapsed...
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
It would be a one-issue election. With JC stuck on the fence with his 5 tests and the Tories riven in two.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
Yes, I agree. Clarke is about the most extreme Remainer in parliament, one who subscribes fully to the principle of ever closer union, so his backing for May is telling.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes and while I voted remain I have supported leave throughout as my post evidence but when Boris told Airbus to FO I turned against the ERG vision of brexit. You may not like it but there are different versions of brexit
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
Oh I don't know, if this document had been presented then I might have switched my vote from remain to leave
His time out is, I think, greater than the Schumacher and Raikkonen sabbaticals combined. Bit of a shame for Sirotkin, who sounds like he's actually rather undervalued and a has a better work ethic (complains less) than Stroll.
That has been obvious for some time in Nicola's statements and of course it gets us out of the CFP. She is a very astute politician and any election soon will see conservative and labour losses to the SNP
Single market in goods for the whole of the UK might just satisfy the DUP and the SNP ?
Then again would the EU agree to it. It's more obligation on all of us but no fair minded unionist who is supportive of the deal surely can't object to rules that are being applied to NI to the whole of the UK ?
If TM doesn't get her deal passed by Parliament, then a general election follows, no? But even if it is passed it still might follow:
If the DUP decide that they cannot support this government in the long term, an early election starts to look more likely. The most likely scenario for an early election is that she manages to get a deal through Parliament, but in the process permanently loses the support of the DUP over the Irish backstop. At that point, with no working majority, May could have little choice but to go to the polls.
I can't see that an election solves anything. It will only expose major fissures in both parties. But it seems we are drifting Titanic-like towards the iceberg.
The DUP might well pull the plug if the deal DOES make it through parliament ! Even Labour supporters/half supporters (abstainers) of the deal will VoNC the Gov't. If the DUP wants an election then it gets one. My sense is they won't initiate a confidence motion though.
The DUP are in a position of maximum leverage in the current parliament. A GE may rob them of that - so why would they want one?
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
You can't complain about BINO when only the name was on the ballot paper in the first place.
"Brexit means Brexit". Weren't you listening? Would it have helped if she had added ".. and nothing more."?
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
No one had a clue what Remain meant either. It might have taken a bit longer for things to come to a head but we would eventually have been in exactly the same position because the EU and UK views - and needs - are fundamentally incompatible.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
Oh I don't know, if this document had been presented then I might have switched my vote from remain to leave
And that would have been fair enough, as you would have been voting on a firmish proposition.
It'd be interesting to see if anyone pre-referendum proposed the broad outlines of this deal as the end-game. Somehow I doubt it ...
If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
It would be a one-issue election. With JC stuck on the fence with his 5 tests and the Tories riven in two.
There's is no such thing as one issue election as we saw in 2017.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
So the leave voters were actually voting for what the remainers wanted all along.
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
No one had a clue what Remain meant either. It might have taken a bit longer for things to come to a head but we would eventually have been in exactly the same position because the EU and UK views - and needs - are fundamentally incompatible.
No. remain was Cameron's deal. That was what was being voted on.
I agree that there was a good chance that there would have been more drift towards us integrating afterwards, but that could be countered somewhat by the contents of the document we voted on.
It certainly is not as bad as the variance between the no-immigration crowd and the EEAers on the leave side.
(I actually re-read Cameron's renegotiation a couple of months ago, and it's nowhere near as bad as people made out at the time.)
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
The only thing that would be counter to the referendum result would be if we did not leave at all.
There are many practical things that are wrong with the Deal, not least the Customs Union arrangements which will put us at a massive disadvantage potentially for the foreseeable future. There are also areas where the deal may well turn out to be unworkable for both sides. But as it stands it is certainly not the case to say it is not leaving. Such is the nature of compromise.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
So the leave voters were actually voting for what the remainers wanted all along.
(Snip)/blockquote>
I'm unsure how you make that great leap of logic ...
It is premature to think that the failure of Rees-Mogg to take 47 others with him at this premature moment offers May any succour either in terms of her passing the Withdrawal Bill or in avoiding a confidence vote on her own leadership should she not change course. Clearly the differences amongst the ERG are tactical and about timing, as evidenced here:
As one immaculately placed source put it: “The likes of DD, IDS and Owen (Paterson) have been playing this game for decades while Rees-Mogg and Baker are playing in the PGA tour for the first time ever. Why did the coup fail? Not because Mrs May is any more popular now than she was last week but because there’s been a difference of opinion over strategy. The oldies know that they will be in a far more powerful position when it comes to the meaningful vote, when they have got Labour, the Scots nats, and the DUP with them. They don’t need her to lose by miles, they just need her to lose. That’s the main event here. The Brexiteers may not be united on the timing of bringing down Mrs May, but they are united in stopping her version of Brexit and the meaningful vote is the only way they can do that. If she loses the vote, Brexit is reborn.”
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
His time out is, I think, greater than the Schumacher and Raikkonen sabbaticals combined. Bit of a shame for Sirotkin, who sounds like he's actually rather undervalued and a has a better work ethic (complains less) than Stroll.
I wish Kubica well; it's just that I think he's sadly past his best. Because of the injury he's having to drive 70% left-handed. That will have an effect.
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
All elected in 2017, to implement Brexit. On a Manifeso pledge that we would be outside the Customs Union and Single Market.
If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
It would be a one-issue election. With JC stuck on the fence with his 5 tests and the Tories riven in two.
There's is no such thing as one issue election as we saw in 2017.
Jezza will walk an election IMO.
That is your hoped for position. This would be a brexit election and he is not going to walk it. Latest indication is he will be down to one seat in Scotland
No. remain was Cameron's deal. That was what was being voted on.
I agree that there was a good chance that there would have been more drift towards us integrating afterwards, but that could be countered somewhat by the contents of the document we voted on.
It certainly is not as bad as the variance between the no-immigration crowd and the EEAers on the leave side.
(I actually re-read Cameron's renegotiation a couple of months ago, and it's nowhere near as bad as people made out at the time.)
This is the Remain delusion. It is why Cameron's deal or any deal that kept us under the auspices of the EU institutions was doomed sooner or later.
The EU needs political integration. This is not just a matter of desire or ambition, it is a basic practical necessity because of the Eurozone. It is not enough to say that we could have sat in an outer ring. The changes and decisions the EU would need to make would effect the whole of the EU not just the Eurozone.
To be honest, in the long run I think the integrationists will view Brexit as a blessing in disguise. And some of the outer countries will be looking seriously at following, not because of any ideological reasons but because the alternative is inevitable political union.
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
Not a binding vote, old bean.
Try selling that on the doorstep if your a Tory MP.
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
They are not able to do so. It is a QMV
And just to make that clear, to block the WA the Spanish would need to muster 45% of the countries and 35% of the total EU 27 population. That is either 11 or 12 countries would need to object. (Depending on how it is now calculated for 27 rather than 28)
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
You have lost mainly because you had ERG fighting your cause and they are now a laughing stock of Dads Army significance. I understand some conservative mps are whistling the dads army theme tune at some of the more extreme ERG
It is premature to think that the failure of Rees-Mogg to take 47 others with him at this premature moment offers May any succour either in terms of her passing the Withdrawal Bill or in avoiding a confidence vote on her own leadership should she not change course. Clearly the differences amongst the ERG are tactical and about timing, as evidenced here:
As one immaculately placed source put it: “The likes of DD, IDS and Owen (Paterson) have been playing this game for decades while Rees-Mogg and Baker are playing in the PGA tour for the first time ever. Why did the coup fail? Not because Mrs May is any more popular now than she was last week but because there’s been a difference of opinion over strategy. The oldies know that they will be in a far more powerful position when it comes to the meaningful vote, when they have got Labour, the Scots nats, and the DUP with them. They don’t need her to lose by miles, they just need her to lose. That’s the main event here. The Brexiteers may not be united on the timing of bringing down Mrs May, but they are united in stopping her version of Brexit and the meaningful vote is the only way they can do that. If she loses the vote, Brexit is reborn.”
She has been threatening "it's my deal or no Brexit". How can she do that?
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
Not a binding vote, old bean.
Try selling that on the doorstep if your a Tory MP.
As I said the other day if you think it being overturned now would be the end of it you are very seriously deluded.
Depends what you mean by "the end of it"
I agree we will be arguing about it for the rest of our lives, whatever happens.
But, if there is another vote, and the result is 'not Brexit', then I expect it to return to being a niche interest of the headbangers. If they piss off to UKIP, that's a bonus.
I do feel some sympathy for JRM. He was promised support, went over the top, then found he'd been lied to by colleagues. At least he had the decency to have the courage of his convictions.
I do feel some sympathy for JRM. He was promised support, went over the top, then found he'd been lied to by colleagues. At least he had the decency to have the courage of his convictions.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
So the leave voters were actually voting for what the remainers wanted all along.
What a load of drivel.
Leave voters were voting for a number of mutually inconsistent positions. Some leave voters preferred all of those positions to remain. Others preferred remain to some of those positions that could be categorised as 'leave' (if you have any doubt about that, think about how many Brexiters don't like the deal which is one form of leave).
Remain voters didn't want to leave in any form, which is probably the key difference.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
No one had a clue what Remain meant either. It might have taken a bit longer for things to come to a head but we would eventually have been in exactly the same position because the EU and UK views - and needs - are fundamentally incompatible.
No. remain was Cameron's deal. That was what was being voted on.
I agree that there was a good chance that there would have been more drift towards us integrating afterwards, but that could be countered somewhat by the contents of the document we voted on.
It certainly is not as bad as the variance between the no-immigration crowd and the EEAers on the leave side.
(I actually re-read Cameron's renegotiation a couple of months ago, and it's nowhere near as bad as people made out at the time.)
Yes, Dave's Deal was fine. Unfortunately it was never going to get a hearing in the mad, feverish atmosphere of the time. Its detractors made the mourners at the Ayatollah Khomeini's funeral look Zen-like.
As I said the other day if you think it being overturned now would be the end of it you are very seriously deluded.
Indeed, the UK is probably done no matter what happens. You might even get to see a sovereign England again, but have to tolerate its new found appreciation of being part of the EU.
As I said the other day if you think it being overturned now would be the end of it you are very seriously deluded.
Depends what you mean by "the end of it"
I agree we will be arguing about it for the rest of our lives, whatever happens.
But, if there is another vote, and the result is 'not Brexit', then I expect it to return to being a niche interest of the headbangers. If they piss off to UKIP, that's a bonus.
Like I said that is a seriously deluded position to take. Imagine those 17.4 million voters (minus a million say to have reversed the decision) being told week in week out that their vote does not count. What effect do you think that will have on democracy in this country?
No. remain was Cameron's deal. That was what was being voted on.
I agree that there was a good chance that there would have been more drift towards us integrating afterwards, but that could be countered somewhat by the contents of the document we voted on.
It certainly is not as bad as the variance between the no-immigration crowd and the EEAers on the leave side.
(I actually re-read Cameron's renegotiation a couple of months ago, and it's nowhere near as bad as people made out at the time.)
This is the Remain delusion. It is why Cameron's deal or any deal that kept us under the auspices of the EU institutions was doomed sooner or later.
The EU needs political integration. This is not just a matter of desire or ambition, it is a basic practical necessity because of the Eurozone. It is not enough to say that we could have sat in an outer ring. The changes and decisions the EU would need to make would effect the whole of the EU not just the Eurozone.
To be honest, in the long run I think the integrationists will view Brexit as a blessing in disguise. And some of the outer countries will be looking seriously at following, not because of any ideological reasons but because the alternative is inevitable political union.
I somewhat agree with that. But the fact remains that 'remain' on the ballot paper meant Cameron's deal, and that was well-characterised. What happens five, ten or more years in the future is uncertain, but that will always be the case whichever way the vote had gone.
But 'leave' was not characterised at all, and the uncertainty was immediate. A vote for leave was a vote for uncertainty.
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
'Honeymoon over' piece on Scottish politics and it's not about the SNP!
'Wind of change for Tories proves overblown
When Ruth Davidson’s Scottish Tories won 13 seats in last year’s general election it was billed as the birth of a new force in British politics. This bloc would be a power to be reckoned with, we were told, shaping UK government policy to serve the needs of Scottish voters.
How hollow that sounds now. Seventeen months after their arrival on the political scene Scotland’s Tory MPs are no-marks. Brexit has cruelly exposed them as divided, ineffectual, naive and incoherent.'
As I said the other day if you think it being overturned now would be the end of it you are very seriously deluded.
Indeed, the UK is probably done no matter what happens. You might even get to see a sovereign England again, but have to tolerate its new found appreciation of being part of the EU.
England (and Wales) will be a separate entity sooner or later anyway. Scottish independence is inevitable as is Irish reunification. At that point there is a massive majority in England for being outside the EU.
As I said the other day if you think it being overturned now would be the end of it you are very seriously deluded.
Indeed, the UK is probably done no matter what happens. You might even get to see a sovereign England again, but have to tolerate its new found appreciation of being part of the EU.
England (and Wales) will be a separate entity sooner or later anyway. Scottish independence is inevitable as is Irish reunification. At that point there is a massive majority in England for being outside the EU.
There once was, but the European context for a sovereign state called England is very different from the context for a superstate called the UK.
As I said the other day if you think it being overturned now would be the end of it you are very seriously deluded.
Indeed, the UK is probably done no matter what happens. You might even get to see a sovereign England again, but have to tolerate its new found appreciation of being part of the EU.
England (and Wales) will be a separate entity sooner or later anyway. Scottish independence is inevitable as is Irish reunification. At that point there is a massive majority in England for being outside the EU.
There once was, but the European context for a sovereign state called England is very different from the context for a superstate called the UK.
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
Yes, but that is all about money and political will, rather than innovation.
Anyway, surely the shuttle was a technological advance? A craft able to lift off and return.
Irish commentator saying that there is no desire for a united Ireland and if there was a reunification vote the Irish would say no as they do not want the 11billion a year it would cost
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
Yes, but that is all about money and political will, rather than innovation.
Anyway, surely the shuttle was a technological advance? A craft able to lift off and return.
And Musk's autonomous, returning first stages are new. It's not really any different to the evolution of the motor car over the same period. Same basic principles; more computers.
I do feel some sympathy for JRM. He was promised support, went over the top, then found he'd been lied to by colleagues. At least he had the decency to have the courage of his convictions.
One of the few honourable MPs throughout this pathetic capitulation.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
Exactly - the "professional Leaver" idea of negotiating Brexit is like going into a restaurant with a 100-page menu and shouting "FOOD! FOOD! GIVE ME FOOD!" at the poor waiter when he tries to take your order!
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
Yes, but that is all about money and political will, rather than innovation.
Anyway, surely the shuttle was a technological advance? A craft able to lift off and return.
And Musk's autonomous, returning first stages are new. It's not really any different to the evolution of the motor car over the same period. Same basic principles; more computers.
Whilst returning first stages are new, they build on the work done in the 1990s on the superb DC-X Clipper. I believe SpaceX employed some of the engineers involved with the DC-X.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
So the leave voters were actually voting for what the remainers wanted all along.
What a load of drivel.
Leave voters were voting for a number of mutually inconsistent positions. Some leave voters preferred all of those positions to remain. Others preferred remain to some of those positions that could be categorised as 'leave' (if you have any doubt about that, think about how many Brexiters don't like the deal which is one form of leave).
Remain voters didn't want to leave in any form, which is probably the key difference.
Remain meant different things to different people, some wanted the status quo, some wanted ever closer union, some wanted to join the Euro, some didn't want to stay in but were too worried about leaving.
The idea that all remain votes were the same is total bollocks frankly.
I do feel some sympathy for JRM. He was promised support, went over the top, then found he'd been lied to by colleagues. At least he had the decency to have the courage of his convictions.
One of the few honourable MPs throughout this pathetic capitulation.
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
Reflects the decline in the role of government in the economy generally IMO. The US put a man on the moon because Kennedy promised to do so and it became a matter of national pride and a demonstration of US technological and financial power. The whole resources of the state were put behind it , money no object, the best scientists from all over the world were recruited by NASA, it was an extension of the kind of total commitment to a single goal that characterised the wartime economy. It would be hard, perhaps impossble, for a government to rally public opinion behind a project like that today.
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
Yes, but that is all about money and political will, rather than innovation.
Anyway, surely the shuttle was a technological advance? A craft able to lift off and return.
We don't have the shuttle anymore, we have a basic rocket that can launch a man or a satellite into orbit, thats the same as we had in 1967. Look at the technology now and compare it to 1967. Only in space travel is it the same. Imagine predicting in 1967 that space travel ability would be exactly the same in 2018 as it was in 1967. You would have been laughed at. But that is the case. There must be anothe reason for it other than lack of political will. If a country now could fly a man to the moon it would have an even bigger impact on the world than it did in 1969 due to the internet etc. Im sure China would love to do it, they have the money, political will, people, but they can't do it.
Irish commentator saying that there is no desire for a united Ireland and if there was a reunification vote the Irish would say no as they do not want the 11billion a year it would cost
It is premature to think that the failure of Rees-Mogg to take 47 others with him at this premature moment offers May any succour either in terms of her passing the Withdrawal Bill or in avoiding a confidence vote on her own leadership should she not change course. Clearly the differences amongst the ERG are tactical and about timing, as evidenced here:
As one immaculately placed source put it: “The likes of DD, IDS and Owen (Paterson) have been playing this game for decades while Rees-Mogg and Baker are playing in the PGA tour for the first time ever. Why did the coup fail? Not because Mrs May is any more popular now than she was last week but because there’s been a difference of opinion over strategy. The oldies know that they will be in a far more powerful position when it comes to the meaningful vote, when they have got Labour, the Scots nats, and the DUP with them. They don’t need her to lose by miles, they just need her to lose. That’s the main event here. The Brexiteers may not be united on the timing of bringing down Mrs May, but they are united in stopping her version of Brexit and the meaningful vote is the only way they can do that. If she loses the vote, Brexit is reborn.”
She has been threatening "it's my deal or no Brexit". How can she do that?
If May's deal goes gets voted down I don't see her having the courage to lead a campaign in parliament to remain in the EU. or for a second referendum, or (worst) a general election.
Irish commentator saying that there is no desire for a united Ireland and if there was a reunification vote the Irish would say no as they do not want the 11billion a year it would cost
Con had a 20% lead four weeks before the 2017 general election.
Stale argument now. Politics have moved on
Not really. Theresa May is still living with the consequences of her screw up... Hence the fate of her deal hanging by a thread in Parliament despite the establishment's massive effort to shore it up.
Irish commentator saying that there is no desire for a united Ireland and if there was a reunification vote the Irish would say no as they do not want the 11billion a year it would cost
Interesting
That is harsh.
Its only what I said 4 weeks ago
NI needs to get its head straight, realise the world is moving on and use the ambiguity of its position to its advantage
It is premature to think that the failure of Rees-Mogg to take 47 others with him at this premature moment offers May any succour either in terms of her passing the Withdrawal Bill or in avoiding a confidence vote on her own leadership should she not change course. Clearly the differences amongst the ERG are tactical and about timing, as evidenced here:
As one immaculately placed source put it: “The likes of DD, IDS and Owen (Paterson) have been playing this game for decades while Rees-Mogg and Baker are playing in the PGA tour for the first time ever. Why did the coup fail? Not because Mrs May is any more popular now than she was last week but because there’s been a difference of opinion over strategy. The oldies know that they will be in a far more powerful position when it comes to the meaningful vote, when they have got Labour, the Scots nats, and the DUP with them. They don’t need her to lose by miles, they just need her to lose. That’s the main event here. The Brexiteers may not be united on the timing of bringing down Mrs May, but they are united in stopping her version of Brexit and the meaningful vote is the only way they can do that. If she loses the vote, Brexit is reborn.”
She has been threatening "it's my deal or no Brexit". How can she do that?
If May's deal goes gets voted down I don't see her having the courage to lead a campaign in parliament to remain in the EU. or for a second referendum, or (worst) a general election.
Looks like No. 10 are moving to a 'Vote this deal' or there will be no Brexit line. Truss now saying same as Rudd by sounds of things.
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
Ye gods the Tory leadership seriously threatening to overturn the biggest democratic mandate in history and the basis on which they were all elected in 2017.
All elected in 2017, to implement Brexit. On a Manifeso pledge that we would be outside the Customs Union and Single Market.
Not a good look for democracy.
Let's see what was in the manifesto on which Tory MPs including the ERG were elected:
Theresa May’s Conservatives will deliver the best possible deal for Britain as we leave the European Union delivered by a smooth,orderly Brexit. ... We want to agree a deep and special partnership with the European Union. This partnership will benefit both the European Union and the United Kingdom: while we are leaving the European Union, we are not leaving Europe, and we want to remain committed partners and allies to our friends across the continent. ... We will make sure we have certainty and clarity over our future, control of our own laws, and a more unified, strengthened United Kingdom. We will control immigration and secure the entitlements of EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We will maintain the Common Travel Area and maintain as frictionless a border as possible for people, goods and services between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Workers’ rights conferred on British citizens from our membership of the EU will remain. We will pursue free trade with European markets, and secure new trade agreements with other countries. We want to work together in the fight against crime and terrorism, collaborate in science and innovation – and secure a smooth, orderly Brexit. ... As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the single market or customs union but we will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement. ... We want fair, orderly negotiations, minimising disruption and giving as much certainty as possible – so both sides benefit. We believe it is necessary to agree the terms of our future partnership alongside our withdrawal, reaching agreement on both within the two years allowed by Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union.
Are you seriously suggesting that is compatible with crashing out without a deal? What was promised is exactly what Theresa May has come back with.
I wonder if public opinion has shifted in favour of May's proposed deal in the same way as it has shifted in favour of her. If so, it would cook the goose of those demanding a second referendum.
What hasn't been discussed, and why even small drops in support would have a disproportionate impact at the GE, is that there is an unusually large number of seats with very small majorities. 51 seats have majorities less than 1,000, another 29 have majorities 1-2,000 and another 40 have majorities of 2,000-3,000. So 120 seats don't really take that much move movement to see change.
It is easy to see how Corbyn could get quite a large minority even with small changes in the votes. All he needs is a few hard line Brexit Conservative voters to stay at home or even switch out of spite and he could romp home.
For all the criticism leveled at the man, Corbyn gets it when it comes to the Parliamentary majority in a way that May is clueless. He knows that, with his views on Brexit, it is not how many Labour voters are Remain or Leave which is important but where they are and whether they would switch. 100,000 inner London pro-Remain Labour voters are far less important than 100,000 pro-Brexit Labour supporters in the North East, Yorkshire and the Midlands.
May on the other hand is one of those people who can't see the wood for the trees. Far too obsessed with detail and far too unsure of herself.
Seriously, my dog could do a better job of things than TM.
The lack of technological advances in Space Flight in the last 57 years is really quite remarkable. We are no more advanced now than before I was born in1968. To think that 1972 was the last time a human left earth orbit. I cant think of any field of technology where we have gone completely backwards in the way we have with space travel. We could go to the moon in 1969, we can't now.
Yes, but that is all about money and political will, rather than innovation.
Anyway, surely the shuttle was a technological advance? A craft able to lift off and return.
We don't have the shuttle anymore, we have a basic rocket that can launch a man or a satellite into orbit, thats the same as we had in 1967. Look at the technology now and compare it to 1967. Only in space travel is it the same. Imagine predicting in 1967 that space travel ability would be exactly the same in 2018 as it was in 1967. You would have been laughed at. But that is the case. There must be anothe reason for it other than lack of political will. If a country now could fly a man to the moon it would have an even bigger impact on the world than it did in 1969 due to the internet etc. Im sure China would love to do it, they have the money, political will, people, but they can't do it.
"We don't have the shuttle anymore, "
That's not *quite* true. The Americans have the X-37B, an unmanned, reusable shuttle that can stay in space for well over a year, and allegedly has significant orbital manoeuvring capabilities. A larger version could also be manned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-37
US company Sierra Nevada are in the middle of developing a reusable potentially manned spaceplane called Dreamchaser. They've done full-scale drop tests with varying success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Chaser
Comments
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
His time out is, I think, greater than the Schumacher and Raikkonen sabbaticals combined. Bit of a shame for Sirotkin, who sounds like he's actually rather undervalued and a has a better work ethic (complains less) than Stroll.
Then again would the EU agree to it. It's more obligation on all of us but no fair minded unionist who is supportive of the deal surely can't object to rules that are being applied to NI to the whole of the UK ?
Unfortunately, the Spanish seem about to torpedo the whole thing.
"Brexit means Brexit". Weren't you listening? Would it have helped if she had added ".. and nothing more."?
It'd be interesting to see if anyone pre-referendum proposed the broad outlines of this deal as the end-game. Somehow I doubt it ...
Jezza will walk an election IMO.
What a load of drivel.
I agree that there was a good chance that there would have been more drift towards us integrating afterwards, but that could be countered somewhat by the contents of the document we voted on.
It certainly is not as bad as the variance between the no-immigration crowd and the EEAers on the leave side.
(I actually re-read Cameron's renegotiation a couple of months ago, and it's nowhere near as bad as people made out at the time.)
There are many practical things that are wrong with the Deal, not least the Customs Union arrangements which will put us at a massive disadvantage potentially for the foreseeable future. There are also areas where the deal may well turn out to be unworkable for both sides. But as it stands it is certainly not the case to say it is not leaving. Such is the nature of compromise.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/plan-attack-brexiteers-now-rees-moggs-failed-dads-army-plot/?WT.mc_id=e_DM880198&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_FrB_New&utm_source=email&utm_medium=Edi_FrB_New_2018_11_21&utm_campaign=DM880198
As one immaculately placed source put it: “The likes of DD, IDS and Owen (Paterson) have been playing this game for decades while Rees-Mogg and Baker are playing in the PGA tour for the first time ever. Why did the coup fail? Not because Mrs May is any more popular now than she was last week but because there’s been a difference of opinion over strategy. The oldies know that they will be in a far more powerful position when it comes to the meaningful vote, when they have got Labour, the Scots nats, and the DUP with them. They don’t need her to lose by miles, they just need her to lose. That’s the main event here. The Brexiteers may not be united on the timing of bringing down Mrs May, but they are united in stopping her version of Brexit and the meaningful vote is the only way they can do that. If she loses the vote, Brexit is reborn.”
Not a good look for democracy.
The EU needs political integration. This is not just a matter of desire or ambition, it is a basic practical necessity because of the Eurozone. It is not enough to say that we could have sat in an outer ring. The changes and decisions the EU would need to make would effect the whole of the EU not just the Eurozone.
To be honest, in the long run I think the integrationists will view Brexit as a blessing in disguise. And some of the outer countries will be looking seriously at following, not because of any ideological reasons but because the alternative is inevitable political union.
https://twitter.com/michelleisawolf/status/1065110176863264768
I agree we will be arguing about it for the rest of our lives, whatever happens.
But, if there is another vote, and the result is 'not Brexit', then I expect it to return to being a niche interest of the headbangers. If they piss off to UKIP, that's a bonus.
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1065193871376859136?s=21
Remain voters didn't want to leave in any form, which is probably the key difference.
That should have been priced in.
But 'leave' was not characterised at all, and the uncertainty was immediate. A vote for leave was a vote for uncertainty.
'Wind of change for Tories proves overblown
When Ruth Davidson’s Scottish Tories won 13 seats in last year’s general election it was billed as the birth of a new force in British politics. This bloc would be a power to be reckoned with, we were told, shaping UK government policy to serve the needs of Scottish voters.
How hollow that sounds now. Seventeen months after their arrival on the political scene Scotland’s Tory MPs are no-marks. Brexit has cruelly exposed them as divided, ineffectual, naive and incoherent.'
https://tinyurl.com/yauct7kf
Anyway, surely the shuttle was a technological advance? A craft able to lift off and return.
Interesting
That said, I think only about 14 people will be arsed to vote next time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv9n9Casp1o
The idea that all remain votes were the same is total bollocks frankly.
If a country now could fly a man to the moon it would have an even bigger impact on the world than it did in 1969 due to the internet etc. Im sure China would love to do it, they have the money, political will, people, but they can't do it.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1065190921334079488
Ken Clarke voting for the Deal, which means the ERG are even less likely to endorse it.
But then Amber Rudd saying "there's no chance of No Deal", which means the ERG are more likely to endorse May's Deal.
And then Nicola Sturgeon quietly attempting to assemble a majority for EEA+CU, which will make the ERG apoplectic.
If JRM and Baker had an iota of self-awareness, they would be wondering what they've got themselves into right now.
NI needs to get its head straight, realise the world is moving on and use the ambiguity of its position to its advantage
shame it has idiots representing it
Theresa May’s Conservatives will deliver the best possible deal for Britain as we leave
the European Union delivered by a smooth,orderly Brexit.
...
We want to agree a deep and special partnership with the European Union. This
partnership will benefit both the European Union and the United Kingdom: while we
are leaving the European Union, we are not leaving Europe, and we want to remain
committed partners and allies to our friends across the continent.
...
We will make sure we have certainty and clarity over our future, control of our own laws, and a more unified, strengthened United Kingdom. We will control immigration and secure the entitlements of EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU. We will maintain the Common Travel Area and maintain as frictionless a border as possible for people, goods and services between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Workers’ rights conferred on British citizens from our membership of the EU will remain. We will pursue free trade with European markets, and secure new trade agreements with other countries. We want to work together in the fight against crime and terrorism, collaborate in science and innovation – and secure a smooth, orderly Brexit.
...
As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the single market or customs union but we will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement.
...
We want fair, orderly negotiations, minimising disruption and giving as much certainty as possible – so both sides benefit. We believe it is necessary to agree the terms of our future partnership alongside our withdrawal, reaching agreement on both within the two years allowed by Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union.
Are you seriously suggesting that is compatible with crashing out without a deal? What was promised is exactly what Theresa May has come back with.
In general, women are more risk averse than men.
It is easy to see how Corbyn could get quite a large minority even with small changes in the votes. All he needs is a few hard line Brexit Conservative voters to stay at home or even switch out of spite and he could romp home.
For all the criticism leveled at the man, Corbyn gets it when it comes to the Parliamentary majority in a way that May is clueless. He knows that, with his views on Brexit, it is not how many Labour voters are Remain or Leave which is important but where they are and whether they would switch. 100,000 inner London pro-Remain Labour voters are far less important than 100,000 pro-Brexit Labour supporters in the North East, Yorkshire and the Midlands.
May on the other hand is one of those people who can't see the wood for the trees. Far too obsessed with detail and far too unsure of herself.
Seriously, my dog could do a better job of things than TM.
That's not *quite* true. The Americans have the X-37B, an unmanned, reusable shuttle that can stay in space for well over a year, and allegedly has significant orbital manoeuvring capabilities. A larger version could also be manned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-37
US company Sierra Nevada are in the middle of developing a reusable potentially manned spaceplane called Dreamchaser. They've done full-scale drop tests with varying success.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Chaser