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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the ERG plotters get their 48 letters today and TMay loses

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    DavidL said:

    Government once again fails to halt the court cases that will rule Brexit revocable:

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-fails-again-to-block-court-case-that-could-allow-the-uk-to-reverse-brexit-2018-11

    I think that that is an unlikely conclusion both because of the wording of Article 50 and the general law as regards notices.

    Art 50 requires unanimity to extend the period. How is it consistent with that to allow the party giving notice to withdraw it unilaterally (and then possibly serve notice again once they are ready)?

    In general law, eg tenancies, if a party gives notice of intention to quit or conclude the tenancy the other party is allowed to rely upon that and hold them to it. The EU have responded to our notice by negotiating (after a fashion) with us for 2 years. They have relied upon the notice which they insisted upon before they would even start discussions. They can hold us to it.

    Of course the CJEU is more like a political forum than a real court but I can't imagine that they will want to leave the EU in such an uncertain position.
    I think that must be correct. Otherwise, any member State could play cat and mouse with the rest.
  • What does it mean to not have a backstop?

    The UK enters transition (presumably) and if we can't agree a long term partnership, it's no deal - is that the idea?

    No, it means no transition, we crash out in utter chaos in a few weeks' time, unless the EU can be persuaded to change their minds or (more likely, but still not very likely) can be persuaded to agree to some kind of 'clarification' which keeps the DUP happy. Unfortunately I think the entrenched positions of various MPs now mean that even that wouldn't work.
    (See my reply to WG)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,296
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    What happens if HM Govt puts the deal-minus-backstop to a vote, and it carries?

    Ball is in Ireland's court now. Accept the backstopless deal or cause no deal chaos, Leo. Your call. Choose wisely.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    What does it mean to not have a backstop?

    The UK enters transition (presumably) and if we can't agree a long term partnership, it's no deal - is that the idea?

    No, if there's no backstop then there's a no deal crash out next March.
    I mean those people who think that TM could have got a WA "without a backstop" - what does that look lik?
    Like the current deal with some black marker pen through all the sections about backstops.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    Government once again fails to halt the court cases that will rule Brexit revocable:

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-fails-again-to-block-court-case-that-could-allow-the-uk-to-reverse-brexit-2018-11

    I think that that is an unlikely conclusion both because of the wording of Article 50 and the general law as regards notices.

    Art 50 requires unanimity to extend the period. How is it consistent with that to allow the party giving notice to withdraw it unilaterally (and then possibly serve notice again once they are ready)?

    In general law, eg tenancies, if a party gives notice of intention to quit or conclude the tenancy the other party is allowed to rely upon that and hold them to it. The EU have responded to our notice by negotiating (after a fashion) with us for 2 years. They have relied upon the notice which they insisted upon before they would even start discussions. They can hold us to it.

    Of course the CJEU is more like a political forum than a real court but I can't imagine that they will want to leave the EU in such an uncertain position.
    The CJEU usually rules in a way which grants more power to the commission. Bearing that in mind, I think they will rule something like thus:

    A50 cannot be unilaterally revoked

    A50 can be revoked by bilateral agreement with the Commission, with the approval of the Council,

    The agreement may include enjoining us not to invoke Article 50 again for some lengthy period.
    I think the wording in the second part of Art 50 about unanimous consent by MSs is of great significance here. Of course the EU could agree to us withdrawing the notice but it would require unanimity.
  • What does it mean to not have a backstop?

    The UK enters transition (presumably) and if we can't agree a long term partnership, it's no deal - is that the idea?

    No, if there's no backstop then there's a no deal crash out next March.
    I mean those people who think that TM could have got a WA "without a backstop" - what does that look lik?
    Something like this, I think:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Oftheunicorn.jpg
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,296
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    In order for something like this deal to pass, somebody is going to negotiate away the godforsaken backstop.

    It doesn't make any sense to ask the woman whose deep and enduring incompetence ensured it made it in the first place, to be the person responsible for negotiating it away again.

    What would you have in place of the backstop?
    An agreement that neither of us would implement a hard border, an agreement to work together on solutions to avoid it and an agreement to co-operate and punish to the full extent of the law any criminals who break the law and don't pay their taxes which is all customs duties are.
    And you don't think Theresa May, Olly Robbins, David Davis, or Dominic Raab have suggested such a deal to the EU?
    I think David Davis and Raab did suggest it. I think the EU tried their luck and May and Robbins fell apart like first two little pigs houses getting blown down by the big bad wolf. If May wasn't so desparate to get results after her disastrous election she could have said no to the backstop when they proposed it.
    Why would she do that? She actually wants to get this through parliament.

    Really, this idea that Theresa May screwed up the negotiations by not being tough enough is the most ludicrous nonsense. I actually agree that the backstop is daft, but the idea that the EU could be persuaded to drop it if only we'd shouted louder is off-the-wall raving bonkers.
    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage
    And if (/when) the answer is 'fine, come back when you're ready', what then ?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    Government once again fails to halt the court cases that will rule Brexit revocable:

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-fails-again-to-block-court-case-that-could-allow-the-uk-to-reverse-brexit-2018-11

    I think that that is an unlikely conclusion both because of the wording of Article 50 and the general law as regards notices.

    Art 50 requires unanimity to extend the period. How is it consistent with that to allow the party giving notice to withdraw it unilaterally (and then possibly serve notice again once they are ready)?

    In general law, eg tenancies, if a party gives notice of intention to quit or conclude the tenancy the other party is allowed to rely upon that and hold them to it. The EU have responded to our notice by negotiating (after a fashion) with us for 2 years. They have relied upon the notice which they insisted upon before they would even start discussions. They can hold us to it.

    Of course the CJEU is more like a political forum than a real court but I can't imagine that they will want to leave the EU in such an uncertain position.
    The CJEU usually rules in a way which grants more power to the commission. Bearing that in mind, I think they will rule something like thus:

    A50 cannot be unilaterally revoked

    A50 can be revoked by bilateral agreement with the Commission, with the approval of the Council,

    The agreement may include enjoining us not to invoke Article 50 again for some lengthy period.
    This is why we need to leave and if, at some point in the future we decide to remain we will see what terms we want to do so or be allowed to do.

    We cannot cock around with our various treaty obligations and agreements because each time we do we weaken our negotiating position for next time round as people, simply, won't believe we would be acting in good faith and would insert, as you say, a host of penal clauses.
    I can imagine the Council deciding to redraft or remove article 50 at some point. It was meant to symbolic, it wasn't actually meant to be used.
    Paradoxically, scrapping A50 might make it easier to leave.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%

    Very low figure for the SNP. They are usually 4 and occasionally 5%. If accurate there would be a lot of Labour gains in Scotland.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%

    Between this poll and Brexit, my considered conclusion is that we're fucked.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    In order for something like this deal to pass, somebody is going to negotiate away the godforsaken backstop.

    It doesn't make any sense to ask the woman whose deep and enduring incompetence ensured it made it in the first place, to be the person responsible for negotiating it away again.

    What would you have in place of the backstop?
    An agreement that neither of us would implement a hard border, an agreement to work together on solutions to avoid it and an agreement to co-operate and punish to the full extent of the law any criminals who break the law and don't pay their taxes which is all customs duties are.
    And you don't think Theresa May, Olly Robbins, David Davis, or Dominic Raab have suggested such a deal to the EU?
    I think David Davis and Raab did suggest it. I think the EU tried their luck and May and Robbins fell apart like first two little pigs houses getting blown down by the big bad wolf. If May wasn't so desparate to get results after her disastrous election she could have said no to the backstop when they proposed it.
    Why would she do that? She actually wants to get this through parliament.

    Really, this idea that Theresa May screwed up the negotiations by not being tough enough is the most ludicrous nonsense. I actually agree that the backstop is daft, but the idea that the EU could be persuaded to drop it if only we'd shouted louder is off-the-wall raving bonkers.
    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage
    And if (/when) the answer is 'fine, come back when you're ready', what then ?
    Too busy for hypotheticals. Where we are today this isn’t plausible
  • Pulpstar said:

    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%

    Between this poll and Brexit, my considered conclusion is that we're fucked.
    Yep
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%


    Broken, sleazy, divided, back stabbing Tories on the slide...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%

    BoJo loses his seat according to electoral calculus.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    DavidL said:

    Government once again fails to halt the court cases that will rule Brexit revocable:

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-fails-again-to-block-court-case-that-could-allow-the-uk-to-reverse-brexit-2018-11

    I think that that is an unlikely conclusion both because of the wording of Article 50 and the general law as regards notices.

    Art 50 requires unanimity to extend the period. How is it consistent with that to allow the party giving notice to withdraw it unilaterally (and then possibly serve notice again once they are ready)?

    In general law, eg tenancies, if a party gives notice of intention to quit or conclude the tenancy the other party is allowed to rely upon that and hold them to it. The EU have responded to our notice by negotiating (after a fashion) with us for 2 years. They have relied upon the notice which they insisted upon before they would even start discussions. They can hold us to it.

    Of course the CJEU is more like a political forum than a real court but I can't imagine that they will want to leave the EU in such an uncertain position.
    The CJEU usually rules in a way which grants more power to the commission. Bearing that in mind, I think they will rule something like thus:

    A50 cannot be unilaterally revoked

    A50 can be revoked by bilateral agreement with the Commission, with the approval of the Council,

    The agreement may include enjoining us not to invoke Article 50 again for some lengthy period.
    Would that be a decision taken by QMV?
    It's not one "where the Treaties provide otherwise", after all.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tlg86 said:

    BoJo loses his seat according to electoral calculus.

    And there was much rejoicing.

    Although I am not sure he will stand again
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    I like this biography of Boris Johnson https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1064877294785835009
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    The Tories need to do a deal with May where they
    a) Get her deal over the line (2nd ref or No Deal Brexit are both complete disasters for them) in exchange for her going once the deal is over the line.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    Apologies. That'll teach me to believe what I read on Twitter.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    :(
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    Apologies. That'll teach me to believe what I read on Twitter.
    I've just put my life savings on Labour most seats!

    /Joke
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    Apologies. That'll teach me to believe what I read on Twitter.
    It was just some Labour activist trolling.

    I wouldn't be surprised if a Survation poll did put Labour 7% ahead right now, although the UKIP score would be much higher than 3%.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited November 2018

    Labour surge 7 points ahead in latest Survation / GMB poll:

    Labour: 44%
    Conservative: 37%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    SNP: 3%
    UKIP: 3%
    Greens: 2%

    Ok - old poll
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,149
    edited November 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    It amazing how tw@tter can spread fake news. Some rando with hardly any followers tweets this 20hrs ago and of course people jump all over it and a day later it makes its way onto PB.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Still, BoJo losing his seat. I want to believe.

    If only the gods hadn't abandoned us.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    I like this biography of Boris Johnson https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1064877294785835009

    A monstrous basilisk that grew up into BoJo.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Nigelb said:
    Hard to disagree with that. Interesting stats about the amount of progress the Dems made at State level too. It may not have been a blue wave but the republicans got seriously wet.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    Apologies. That'll teach me to believe what I read on Twitter.
    It was just some Labour activist trolling.

    I wouldn't be surprised if a Survation poll did put Labour 7% ahead right now, although the UKIP score would be much higher than 3%.
    I was surprised that Ukip weren't a bit higher than 3% - but, yeah, we all fell for it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Just logged on are we still at 48-n letters?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Just logged on are we still at 48-n letters?

    Who cares? Facebook is down.
  • Just logged on are we still at 48-n letters?

    Who cares? Facebook is down.
    Because of Brexit?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Still, BoJo losing his seat. I want to believe.

    If only the gods hadn't abandoned us.

    We told them we were leaving and invoked A50

    :D:D:D:D
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Scott_P said:
    Even if it was true that the EU suffered most, that would be pretty cold comfort for us. No deal hurts everyone.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    Gibraltar isn’t part of the UK at all.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    I don't really know what motivates UKIP voters any more. Since the party wandered off into the toxic shallows of gammon-hued islamoscepticism it's difficult to reason about how these people will vote. If they vote.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    Gibraltar isn’t part of the UK at all.
    It's a British Overseas Territory. Not part of the UK. But it's treated as part of the South West for census purposes.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Just logged on are we still at 48-n letters?

    Who cares? Facebook is down.
    Because of Brexit?
    It must be. What else could explain it? ;)

    In any case, for most people, it is probably more of an annoyance than Brexit.
  • Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    'lol'

    I remember Tim, formerly of this parish, hyping a Labour lead poll in the run up to the 2010 election. Lots of 'if these rumours are true' hyperbole.

    Probably a banning offence if you think about it.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited November 2018
    For those of you who Reddit, Sebastian Payne of the FT is about to do an "Ask Me Anything": https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9yspe4/im_sebastian_payne_and_i_write_editorials_and/ . He's quite a cogent and engaging writer, so it may be worth following.

    Also, Sunil, he'll answer questions about trains.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,149
    edited November 2018

    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    'lol'

    I remember Tim, formerly of this parish, hyping a Labour lead poll in the run up to the 2010 election. Lots of 'if these rumours are true' hyperbole.

    Probably a banning offence if you think about it.
    I didn't do it on purpose. I posted it in good faith.

    Don't come for me. I AM ARMED.
    image
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    Gibraltar isn’t part of the UK at all.
    It's a British Overseas Territory. Not part of the UK. But it's treated as part of the South West for census purposes.
    I think you mean the EU Parliament elections - it's not in the UK Census.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    'lol'

    I remember Tim, formerly of this parish, hyping a Labour lead poll in the run up to the 2010 election. Lots of 'if these rumours are true' hyperbole.

    Probably a banning offence if you think about it.
    I didn't do it on purpose. I posted it in good faith.

    Don't come for me. I AM ARMED.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    Gibraltar isn’t part of the UK at all.
    It's a British Overseas Territory. Not part of the UK. But it's treated as part of the South West for census purposes.
    I think you mean the EU Parliament elections - it's not in the UK Census.
    Yeah, that makes sense. The population of the Gibraltar was included in the population of the south west to work out how many MEPs it got.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.
  • TOPPING said:

    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.

    The real problem is that it's not a question of who is right, it's a question of what the EU and Ireland will accept.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    George Osborne posted a poll in good faith and he's apologised.
  • In a time when Labour didn't have issues with Jews,

    Clement Attlee, the Labour prime minister whose government founded the welfare state, looked after a child refugee who escaped from the Nazis in the months leading up to the second world war, it can be revealed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/20/clement-attlee-child-refugee-paul-willer-fled-nazis-1939
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    TOPPING said:

    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.

    The real problem is that it's not a question of who is right, it's a question of what the EU and Ireland will accept.
    Who is 'right' in Ireland ? It's a good question - one you can look back over the last thousand years at so far as British (And previously Norman, with a mild sprinkling of Dutch) involvement is concerned.
  • Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    'lol'

    I remember Tim, formerly of this parish, hyping a Labour lead poll in the run up to the 2010 election. Lots of 'if these rumours are true' hyperbole.

    Probably a banning offence if you think about it.
    Wasn't it a fake Lib Dem lead at the height of the Cleggasm? I seem to recall numerous 'Lib Dems gain Witney on these numbers' posts from tim.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Pulpstar said:

    George Osborne posted a poll in good faith and he's apologised.

    Tony Blair let in about 2m by mistake but no apologies there.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,690
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1064877326691954688

    Fun cover, though I do wonder if many people under the age of 50 get Dad's Army references.

    Yes it's been on TV plenty enough for anyone in their 30s to get it.
    I'm 36 and while I get the reference it doesn't really mean anything to me. Never seen the show.
    It's not the funniest vintage comedy show IMO but it's miles better than most new comedy.
    Who do you think you are kidding Mr Andy!!!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.

    The real problem is that it's not a question of who is right, it's a question of what the EU and Ireland will accept.
    That doesn't matter either it is if the WTO accepts there is a security angle.

    Not a gamble May can accept.
  • Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    What's the timetable for the deal reaching the Commons?

    F1: just the winner's market up. Hopefully the rest will be up soon.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Not strictly fake news, more (very) old news.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    Gibraltar isn’t part of the UK at all.
    The Spanish complaint today is the wording in the WDA makes it look like it is

    (But it was a joke anyway)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,690
    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    On the most recent polls Jezza will be PM
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.
    Trusted traveller does
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    There were two polls out over the weekend giving Labour leads of 3% and 4%. Beyond that , I suspect that the polls have tended to flatter the Tories as a result of Brexit effectively freezing out the Opposition parties from day to day commentary.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    What does it mean to not have a backstop?

    The UK enters transition (presumably) and if we can't agree a long term partnership, it's no deal - is that the idea?

    No, if there's no backstop then there's a no deal crash out next March.
    I mean those people who think that TM could have got a WA "without a backstop" - what does that look lik?
    Something like this, I think:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Oftheunicorn.jpg
    A unicorn is just a rhino with a good PR agency......
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,819
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.
    Trusted traveller does
    You don't need to check the ones you trust, it is the ones you don't trust that need checking.

    If you rely on the magic technology who checks the rest who just wander across.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    There were two polls out over the weekend giving Labour leads of 3% and 4%. Beyond that , I suspect that the polls have tended to flatter the Tories as a result of Brexit effectively freezing out the Opposition parties from day to day commentary.
    The Labour opposition is hardly frozen out - it just doesn't have a clue what to say on Brexit. Witness Magic Grandpa on SKY.....
  • Sean_F said:

    Fake News Alert.

    Survation say this poll is from 12th March 2018. Their most recent poll has Labour ahead 40/39.

    'lol'

    I remember Tim, formerly of this parish, hyping a Labour lead poll in the run up to the 2010 election. Lots of 'if these rumours are true' hyperbole.

    Probably a banning offence if you think about it.
    I didn't do it on purpose. I posted it in good faith.

    Don't come for me. I AM ARMED.
    image
    quite.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    There were two polls out over the weekend giving Labour leads of 3% and 4%. Beyond that , I suspect that the polls have tended to flatter the Tories as a result of Brexit effectively freezing out the Opposition parties from day to day commentary.
    The Labour opposition is hardly frozen out - it just doesn't have a clue what to say on Brexit. Witness Magic Grandpa on SKY.....
    I doubt that many people - other than political anoraks - have noticed them much at all.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    What does it mean to not have a backstop?

    The UK enters transition (presumably) and if we can't agree a long term partnership, it's no deal - is that the idea?

    No, if there's no backstop then there's a no deal crash out next March.
    I mean those people who think that TM could have got a WA "without a backstop" - what does that look lik?
    Something like this, I think:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Oftheunicorn.jpg
    A unicorn is just a rhino with a good PR agency......
    Or a rhino is an armoured unicorn.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621

    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    On the most recent polls Jezza will be PM
    The latest EMA including the two weekend polls has:

    Con 39.3%
    Lab 38.5%
    LD 8.4%

    Combining this with the latest Scottish GE poll and using Electoral Calculus gives:

    Con 302
    Lab 270
    LD 16
    SNP 40
    Grn 1
    PC 3
    UKIP 0
    NI 18

    Tories 24 short of an overall majority.

    Minority Labour government with support of SNP and LDs (and PC and Green).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited November 2018
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    There were two polls out over the weekend giving Labour leads of 3% and 4%. Beyond that , I suspect that the polls have tended to flatter the Tories as a result of Brexit effectively freezing out the Opposition parties from day to day commentary.
    The Labour opposition is hardly frozen out - it just doesn't have a clue what to say on Brexit. Witness Magic Grandpa on SKY.....
    I doubt that many people - other than political anoraks - have noticed them much at all.
    The Tory shitshow is the only circus in town right now.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46269757 2867 comments and still going strong.

    Corbyn could propose a unicorn on a stick for his Brexit plan and noone would care or notice right now.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Barnesian said:

    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    On the most recent polls Jezza will be PM
    The latest EMA including the two weekend polls has:

    Con 39.3%
    Lab 38.5%
    LD 8.4%

    Combining this with the latest Scottish GE poll and using Electoral Calculus gives:

    Con 302
    Lab 270
    LD 16
    SNP 40
    Grn 1
    PC 3
    UKIP 0
    NI 18

    Tories 24 short of an overall majority.

    Minority Labour government with support of SNP and LDs (and PC and Green).
    Thanks for the figures, interesting stuff.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    ERG have been as effective as toddlers bailing out a bath with forks.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Does anyone know whether Stewart Jackson would be interested in standing again in Peterborough in the event of a by-election?
  • AndyJS said:

    Does anyone know whether Stewart Jackson would be interested in standing again in Peterborough in the event of a by-election?

    The candidate has already been chosen:

    https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/peterborough-s-conservatives-choose-their-candidate-to-fight-the-next-election-1-8676251
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.

    The real problem is that it's not a question of who is right, it's a question of what the EU and Ireland will accept.
    Who is 'right' in Ireland ? It's a good question - one you can look back over the last thousand years at so far as British (And previously Norman, with a mild sprinkling of Dutch) involvement is concerned.
    First time I’ve ever been called a Dutch sprinkle!
  • What does it mean to not have a backstop?

    The UK enters transition (presumably) and if we can't agree a long term partnership, it's no deal - is that the idea?

    No, if there's no backstop then there's a no deal crash out next March.
    I mean those people who think that TM could have got a WA "without a backstop" - what does that look lik?
    Something like this, I think:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Oftheunicorn.jpg
    A unicorn is just a rhino with a good PR agency......
    The deal is in some respects a unicorn with a monumentally awful PR agency. It certainly has more cake than the EU said could ever be possible.
  • Barnesian said:

    DavidL said:

    Theresa, Honey

    YOU'VE MADE JEREMY CORBYN LOOK LIKE A PLAUSIBLE PRIME MINISTER

    YOU'RE GIVING A PALEO-LENINIST A MAJORITY YOU HONKING GREAT BERK

    Look what you've done. I hope you're happy.

    not aged well....

    tbf, a poll like that is entirely plausible to happen soon...
    It is genuinely bewildering that a government that is falling apart, on its 3rd Brexit Secretary in as many months and seems to have lost its coalition partner/majority is still marginally leading in the polls. If Labour were not on a different planet they would be giving this some serious thought.
    On the most recent polls Jezza will be PM
    The latest EMA including the two weekend polls has:

    Con 39.3%
    Lab 38.5%
    LD 8.4%

    Combining this with the latest Scottish GE poll and using Electoral Calculus gives:

    Con 302
    Lab 270
    LD 16
    SNP 40
    Grn 1
    PC 3
    UKIP 0
    NI 18

    Tories 24 short of an overall majority.

    Minority Labour government with support of SNP and LDs (and PC and Green).
    Minority Conservative government with support of LDs and DUP (who propped up the Tories last time and this, respectively).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    AndyJS said:

    Does anyone know whether Stewart Jackson would be interested in standing again in Peterborough in the event of a by-election?

    I think he's ruled himself out.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Current Peterborough MP seems to have added driving and phoning to her amazing skill set. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-46279719#
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2018

    AndyJS said:

    Does anyone know whether Stewart Jackson would be interested in standing again in Peterborough in the event of a by-election?

    The candidate has already been chosen:

    https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/politics/peterborough-s-conservatives-choose-their-candidate-to-fight-the-next-election-1-8676251
    Thanks. He looks a bit like Ben Gummer.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kjh said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.
    Trusted traveller does
    You don't need to check the ones you trust, it is the ones you don't trust that need checking.

    If you rely on the magic technology who checks the rest who just wander across.
    The vast bulk of trade is by a few small groups.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2018
    dr_spyn said:

    Current Peterborough MP seems to have added driving and phoning to her amazing skill set. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-46279719#

    Ms Onasanya told the Old Bailey she could not have been driving as she does not use her mobile phone when at the wheel.

    That's a goody!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Something's going on with the oil price at present, it's dropping like a stone.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/energy
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kjh said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.
    Trusted traveller does
    You don't need to check the ones you trust, it is the ones you don't trust that need checking.

    If you rely on the magic technology who checks the rest who just wander across.
    Vast bulk of trade is small group of companies. Self reporting plus spot checks and then spot checks on everyone else
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,149
    edited November 2018
    Jeremy Corbyn missed a vote last night on an amendment placed in his own name to the Finance Bill. This was an amendment which potentially could have defeated the Government as eight DUP MPs voted with Labour, the SNP, Lib Dems, and Plaid Cymru. Senior Labour MPs are furious that party lost the vote when a tighter whipping operation could have defeated the Government.

    Labour reportedly claim that he missed the vote because he was paired with a Tory MP, although the Tories insist he was not. So what’s the truth?

    UPDATE: Labour have now clarified that Corbyn wasn’t paired after all, but he was given permission not to be there, because of “meetings”.

    https://order-order.com/2018/11/20/why-did-corbyn-miss-a-vote-last-night/

    Obviously too busy with the local manhole cover appreciation society meeting. Magic Grandpa doesn't half do some lying, or at least his office does.
  • AndyJS said:

    Something's going on with the oil price at present, it's dropping like a stone.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    If I remember Robert's YouTube video about this then this is an inevitable consequence of tight oil producers in the US reacting to higher prices some months ago. The oil price is roughly where it was a year ago. While geopolitical factors - like sabre-rattling with Iran - might temporarily push the price up the fundamentals of the market will always drag the price back down to the marginal cost of production of tight oil in the US.
  • AndyJS said:

    Something's going on with the oil price at present, it's dropping like a stone.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/energy

    World trade worries?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If we’d threatened to walk away they may have. If you must do a deal you’ve little leverage

    Indeed. That's why they've got the leverage. We can't credibly threaten to walk away.
    Yes. I would have played the whole thing differently

    But we’ve ended up in an ok place

    And for the backstop, if they try to enforce, I’d repudiate it.
    They won't try to enforce it, Charles, they don't want it. A dispute may be brought, if we are operating under WTO terms, by a fellow WTO member under MFN which could either force us to put up a border or force us to drop any tariffs for goods from any other country that aren't applied to RoI goods.
    We’ve discussed this before.

    Tariffs will be applied, just the monitoring will be done in a different way. But it will be done in the same way as all U.K. land borders*

    (* except Gibraltar, but don’t worry Spain that’s not really part of the UK)
    We have discussed this before and yet people refuse to face reality.

    Your solution would be the mystical techno-phyto-mythological doesn't yet exist plan I imagine.
    Trusted traveller does
    You don't need to check the ones you trust, it is the ones you don't trust that need checking.

    If you rely on the magic technology who checks the rest who just wander across.
    The vast bulk of trade is by a few small groups.
    The vast amount of a fall off a cliff won't hurt you.
This discussion has been closed.