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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The response to the death of Mrs. Thatcher – today’s YouGov

SystemSystem Posts: 12,058
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The response to the death of Mrs. Thatcher – today’s YouGov verdicts

Update: Labour lead at 11 – Latest YouGov/The Sun results 12th April – CON 31%, LAB 42%, LD 12%, UKIP 11%; APP -35 y-g.co/16SdRuO

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    I'd have been with the majority in all six of the questions you have highlighted above-seven if you include voting intention.

    Mr Everyman!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    Morning - nothing too unexpected in that little lot - good to see most think grave dancing is wrong, that it poured with rain on their Trafalgar Sq parading about was fitting :^ )

    OT - for PB nerds - a mesmerising time-lapse of a pendulum swing, the shapes it forms are just mind-bending.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN_gjuoYlEM
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Roger said:

    I'd have been with the majority in all six of the questions you have highlighted above-seven if you include voting intention.

    Mr Everyman!

    How very dare you sully your well earned PB reputation for swimming against the tide of simple political calculation.

    I fear for your future as the anti sage of PB .... a site mourns .... bookies share price crashes and a pillar of the PB community is crushed to dust !!

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    r
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Roger..wow..shocked..what a surprise.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I wouldn't read too much into Ed's leaders ratings - he's back to where he was 4 weeks ago.

    Prime Minister ratings (net good)
    Thatcher:+11
    Blair: -6
    Brown: -52
    Major: -23
    Heath: -19 (41 don't know)

    Net
    Thatcher "good for Britain" +4
    Left Country economically better off : +10
    More respected in the world : +38
    More equal society: -38
    More free society : =
    More opportunities for women: +35
    More divided: +45
    Industry more competitive: -4
    Put "Great" back into GB: -2
    Did enough to regenerate industry in areas hit by closures: -60
    Privatise BT/BG: -16
    Right to buy:+31
    Take on Unions:.+36
    Falklands: +53
    Poll Tax: -52
    Tackle inflation over unemployment: -7
    Cut tax top rate 83>40% : +10
    City Big Bang: -10
    Section 28: -9
    Single Market: =
    EEC rebate: +60

    I wonder if the negative view on privatisation - strongest among the older, might encourage Ed to challenge this part of the consensus?

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    FPT .... 79 GE Election

    Has Jo Grimond won Orkney and Shetland yet ?? ....

    Andrea's a bit late - 34 years - reporting the result !!

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Martin Durkin's programme on Channel 4 last night, Margare:, Death of a Revolutionary, is worth a re-look, especially for the opposition she received from both Left and Right and for explaining her raison d'etre. Also for Neil Kinnock being lost for words in his interview.

    Mr Durkin on MT:

    "The “market” was not a wicked thing. It was lively and sociable, she said. It brought spices and coffee and bananas into the shops. In her day, it brought Fred Astaire to the local cinema. And most ordinary Britons had the good sense to agree (unlike the Left, our “intelligentsia” and the Tory old guard).

    To the horror of the Left, Thatcher, re-defined the class struggle. The socialists argued that “the workers” were being ripped off by “the bosses”. But when workers looked at their wages and saw almost half had gone, they knew it wasn’t the bosses who had taken it. It was the state. “Socialism” was reduced to fleecing hard-working people in the private sector to keep the middle class public sector gravy train rolling.

    The new class struggle, as defined by the revolutionary Thatcher, was between Tax Producers (in the productive economy) and Tax Consumers (in the parasitic public sector). The regions that voted Labour were dominated by public sector workers and benefit recipients (they wanted to keep the tap on). The regions that voted for Thatcher were populated by the suckers who footed the bill (and rather resented it). "

    It is clear that the class struggle described above is yet to be resolved.

    He also quotes MT from 1975:

    "A man's right to work as he will .
    To spend what he earns to own property.
    To have the State as servant and not as master.
    These are the British inheritance.
    They are the essence of a free economy. And on that freedom all our other freedoms depend."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2013
    @Financier - agree, it was an interesting documentary - Kinnock looked a fool.

    Another great Maggie quote, true then, true now:

    "To borrow and to borrow and to borrow is not Macbeth with a heavy cold - it's Labour policy!"

    I wish today's speech writers - of all parties - were half as literate..
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,610
    Haven't been on PB in a while. I wonder how often the new 'off topic' button will be pushed ;-)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    The Durkin documentary was interesting. It showed, only as a true admirer could, why some people loved Mrs T. Presumably Channel 4 will balance it at some stage with a documentary that puts the other side of the story.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    I wouldn't read too much into Ed's leaders ratings - he's back to where he was 4 weeks ago.

    Prime Minister ratings (net good)
    Thatcher:+11
    Blair: -6
    Brown: -52
    Major: -23
    Heath: -19 (41 don't know)

    Net
    Thatcher "good for Britain" +4
    Left Country economically better off : +10
    More respected in the world : +38
    More equal society: -38
    More free society : =
    More opportunities for women: +35
    More divided: +45
    Industry more competitive: -4
    Put "Great" back into GB: -2
    Did enough to regenerate industry in areas hit by closures: -60
    Privatise BT/BG: -16
    Right to buy:+31
    Take on Unions:.+36
    Falklands: +53
    Poll Tax: -52
    Tackle inflation over unemployment: -7
    Cut tax top rate 83>40% : +10
    City Big Bang: -10
    Section 28: -9
    Single Market: =
    EEC rebate: +60

    I wonder if the negative view on privatisation - strongest among the older, might encourage Ed to challenge this part of the consensus?

    All those findings leave me impressed by the innate good sense of the British people. It's hard to disagree with the majority view on any of them.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    More trouble at t'mill in Downing St:

    The architect of David Cameron’s policy on gay marriage is leaving Downing Street after losing a power battle with the Prime Minister’s new Election supremo.
    Andrew Cooper, Mr Cameron’s personal polling guru and a key modernising figure at No 10, is returning to his private business after being usurped by outspoken Australian ‘fixer’ Lynton Crosby.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308756/Camerons-gay-marriage-guru-quits-power-battle-foghorn-fixer.html#
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    edited April 2013
    Durkin's documentary was rubbish. infact it wasn't a documentary at all but a hagiography. Unusual to run something of such low quality now that the BBC have set the bar so high but it was channel 4. I'd put it on a par with the Dispatches documentary on the death of a Princess financed by Al Feyed. In other words a hard sell on the documentary maker's pet theory.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    I wouldn't read too much into Ed's leaders ratings - he's back to where he was 4 weeks ago.

    Prime Minister ratings (net good)
    Thatcher:+11
    Blair: -6
    Brown: -52
    Major: -23
    Heath: -19 (41 don't know)

    Net
    Thatcher "good for Britain" +4
    Left Country economically better off : +10
    More respected in the world : +38
    More equal society: -38
    More free society : =
    More opportunities for women: +35
    More divided: +45
    Industry more competitive: -4
    Put "Great" back into GB: -2
    Did enough to regenerate industry in areas hit by closures: -60
    Privatise BT/BG: -16
    Right to buy:+31
    Take on Unions:.+36
    Falklands: +53
    Poll Tax: -52
    Tackle inflation over unemployment: -7
    Cut tax top rate 83>40% : +10
    City Big Bang: -10
    Section 28: -9
    Single Market: =
    EEC rebate: +60

    I wonder if the negative view on privatisation - strongest among the older, might encourage Ed to challenge this part of the consensus?

    All those findings leave me impressed by the innate good sense of the British people. It's hard to disagree with the majority view on any of them.

    The only one I thought "curious" on was "privatisation" - and the most enthusiastic for privatisation were the young who had never experienced state owned utilities. An opportunity for Ed?

    On the left the "more opportunities for women" will have stuck in a few craws....


  • All those findings leave me impressed by the innate good sense of the British people. It's hard to disagree with the majority view on any of them.

    More or less. Privatising BT was definitely a good (or at least allowing mobile phone operators to work in a competitive environment)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Meanwhile in North Korea:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308705/Inside-North-Korea-A-rare-dispatch-deep-lunatic-rogue-state-enslaved-Zombie-Sons.html?ICO=most_read_module

    As one of the comments points out, that horse that Kim Fat Un is riding is the only animal seen in any picture of North Korea, the rest have been eaten
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    I wouldn't read too much into Ed's leaders ratings - he's back to where he was 4 weeks ago.

    Prime Minister ratings (net good)
    Thatcher:+11
    Blair: -6
    Brown: -52
    Major: -23
    Heath: -19 (41 don't know)

    Net
    Thatcher "good for Britain" +4
    Left Country economically better off : +10
    More respected in the world : +38
    More equal society: -38
    More free society : =
    More opportunities for women: +35
    More divided: +45
    Industry more competitive: -4
    Put "Great" back into GB: -2
    Did enough to regenerate industry in areas hit by closures: -60
    Privatise BT/BG: -16
    Right to buy:+31
    Take on Unions:.+36
    Falklands: +53
    Poll Tax: -52
    Tackle inflation over unemployment: -7
    Cut tax top rate 83>40% : +10
    City Big Bang: -10
    Section 28: -9
    Single Market: =
    EEC rebate: +60

    I wonder if the negative view on privatisation - strongest among the older, might encourage Ed to challenge this part of the consensus?

    All those findings leave me impressed by the innate good sense of the British people. It's hard to disagree with the majority view on any of them.

    The only one I thought "curious" on was "privatisation" - and the most enthusiastic for privatisation were the young who had never experienced state owned utilities. An opportunity for Ed?

    On the left the "more opportunities for women" will have stuck in a few craws....

    I guess the privatisation responses are clouded by perceptions of utility services and prices today, rather than of memories of yesteryear. When your gas bill keeps rising it's natural to wonder whether things could be better.



  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,402
    edited April 2013


    I guess the privatisation responses are clouded by perceptions of utility services and prices today, rather than of memories of yesteryear. When your gas bill keeps rising it's natural to wonder whether things could be better.

    Works both ways. People probably look at Cameron's troubles and make the same judgement about Thatcher. Truth is, if she were in power now, she wouldn't being doing any better.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    @Roger
    If you say it was rubbish Roger, then it must have been good.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Is Queen Margaret going to be buried after the funeral ?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If you're into tornado chasing videos - this is a very good one - it gets with a few metres of the truck filming it. Jeez.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9992076/Tornado-filmed-up-close-and-personal-by-legendary-stormchaser.html
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    If revolution breaks out in N Korea, Kim Fat UN could solve both the food and fuel shortages at the same time.

    Meanwhile in North Korea:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308705/Inside-North-Korea-A-rare-dispatch-deep-lunatic-rogue-state-enslaved-Zombie-Sons.html?ICO=most_read_module

    As one of the comments points out, that horse that Kim Fat Un is riding is the only animal seen in any picture of North Korea, the rest have been eaten

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    When Queen Margaret introduced Section 28, she was only enacting what her party members wanted. Dave was only doing on mgay marriage what most of his party still does not like.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    "There is no future in karaoke Thatcherism, the politics of direct mimicry and forlorn impersonation. Though she spoke warmly of (some) “Victorian values” and honoured her Methodist upbringing, she was never a nostalgist, marooned in the past. Quite the opposite: her energy flowed from the speed with which she wanted to lead Britain to a better future. The worst possible tribute to this towering figure would be to look backward with a yearning eye. It is forward, with courage, that her extraordinary life should inspire us."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9990296/Margaret-Thatcher-She-was-a-giant-but-karaoke-Thatcherism-is-not-enough-for-her-successors.html
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    Jonathan said:


    I guess the privatisation responses are clouded by perceptions of utility services and prices today, rather than of memories of yesteryear. When your gas bill keeps rising it's natural to wonder whether things could be better.

    Works both ways. People probably look at Cameron's troubles and make the same judgement about Thatcher. Truth is, if she were in power now, she wouldn't being doing any better.

    Cameron's major political and strategic mistake is Osborne. Thatcher never tied herself to anyone in that way. I get the feeling that young George would not have got close to her ministerial team, let alone No 11. She liked Hammonds and Mays.

    But you're right - Thatcher came to power at a time when Britain's problems were almost entirely home grown. That made them solvable. The Tories came to power in 2010 on the back of an international crisis, which means solutions have to be international too. There's no reason to think she would have handled austerity any better than the current government's dismal attempts, but every reason to believe she would have tried harder to lead the wider search for a way out of the malaise (as Brown and Blair would have done too).

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    Southam's point about "innate good sense of the British people" is interesting. Individually, it's not generally true - we all know people who are completely one-eyed and reject the weather forecast if made by someone with a different political view. But collectively polls usually produce a nuanced view that it's difficult totally to reject. Today's YouGov is full of examples - Labour people who approve of some of MT's policies, Tories who think recalling Parliament and a statue in Trafalgar Square would be a bit OTT.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nick Cohen on Cameron and UKIP:

    "The Tories are as frightened of taking on Ukip. They don't want to ridicule Farage, to say he offers no plan for a workable future, because they are frightened of alienating the reactionary rightwing press and their own reactionary backbenchers and activists. It is Cameron's fear, rather than any faith in the opinion polls or admiration for the statesmanlike qualities of Ed Miliband, that suggests to me the Conservatives may be in more trouble than they seem."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/cameron-ukip-nigel-farage
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,531

    Have they already named a street after MT in London?

    Post-industrial Scotland certainly appears to have its own little tribute.

    http://tinyurl.com/caf2j8d

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,531
    edited April 2013
    RT RopesToInfinity ‏@RopesToInfinity 11h
    Probably not the best picture to go under that headline

    http://tinyurl.com/ceqvdrk
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    OT Has anyone seen Da Vinci's Demons? I've just switched it on and within 2 mins faced with Hugh Bonneville's bare bum - so pressed pause.

    It looks lavishly filmed - but such sights on a Sunday morning really need a health warning. Imagine Downton with rosary beads...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,553
    Probably a good idea to get rid of one strategist or the other. Trying to do gay marriage at the same time as setting tramps on fire wasn't really working, even if the polling shows majority support for both.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Have they already named a street after MT in London?

    Post-industrial Scotland certainly appears to have its own little tribute.

    http://tinyurl.com/caf2j8d

    The spelling is wrong ! There should be a "B" in it.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The Tory BBC with its Tory head has surpassed its own record of submission to the Tories. Now it is promoting Tory adulation.

    Sky has been more balanced.


  • The Tories came to power in 2010 on the back of an international crisis, which means solutions have to be international too.

    Not sure the problems were entirely international. Fred the Shred and excess state spending spring to mind, but agreed there were some international issues.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Andrew Marr back on Marr as a guest - looking well.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    edited April 2013
    Has a more drippy looking person than Cecil Parkinson ever served in a Cabinet? He looks permanently on the verge of tears.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I enjoyed the Channel 4 documentary last night, which got some unintentionally revealing comments out of some very experienced players. There wasn't much new about the thesis being put forward though.

    I would give nearly top marks to all broadcasters for their coverage since Mrs Thatcher's death. They've trodden a very difficult path very skilfully. Radio 1 should have decided to play the whole of Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead, but that's been the main slip in my view.

    I can't blame the broadcasters and the newspapers for their exhaustive coverage, though it's starting to pall even for me. There's a mad glamour about Mrs Thatcher reminiscent of one of Dickens' finest characters.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,402
    tim said:


    If the Tories really do want to run a xenophobic core vote campaign it sort of begs the question of what exactly is Davind Cameron still there for.
    Nobody is going to believe that he's suddenly morphed from tiny windmill owning enviro-Dave into Robo Dave, Hammer Of The Left - Chin Of Steel.

    I increasingly doubt whether Cameron is the man to lead a right-wing strategy for the Tories. His positioning up to 2012 was all about the centre ground. It's too late to change now.

    Just imagine if Blair suddenly jumping on a left-wing bandwagon. It would not have worked.

    Cameron needs to return to the strategy that got him into no10 or the Tories need to find someone else who can take the party in a new direction.


  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @antifrank - agree - on the day Thatcher died, Jon Snow's experience paid dividends - those who were not there often believe the mythology - from both sides.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited April 2013

    Jonathan said:
    would have tried harder to lead the wider search for a way out of the malaise (as Brown and Blair would have done too).

    Have you got any examples of what Brown actually did after 2008 to back that up? Aside from saving the world, obviously.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Southam's point about "innate good sense of the British people" is interesting. Individually, it's not generally true - we all know people who are completely one-eyed and reject the weather forecast if made by someone with a different political view. But collectively polls usually produce a nuanced view that it's difficult totally to reject. Today's YouGov is full of examples - Labour people who approve of some of MT's policies, Tories who think recalling Parliament and a statue in Trafalgar Square would be a bit OTT.

    Maybe it's the people we hang out with. None of my friends - well, maybe one - are 'that' into politics (and I don't have time to be as into it as I'd like). They have a far more balanced view than most PBers, as they stand back far enough to see the full picture. Kind of related, beware the news:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/apr/12/news-is-bad-rolf-dobelli

    'News increases cognitive errors. News feeds the mother of all cognitive errors: confirmation bias. In the words of Warren Buffett: "What the human being is best at doing is interpreting all new information so that their prior conclusions remain intact."'
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    edited April 2013

    Andrew Marr back on Marr as a guest - looking well.

    Rowing machines can give you a stroke apparently.

    Hodges: 'Great to see Andrew Marr back. Though not if you're head of the UK Rowing Machine manufacturers association...'
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Andrew Marr explained his stroke was caused by over exertion on a rowing machine tearing his carotid artery - his speech and memory are unaffected but his left side is still weak which will require intensive physiotherapy - he'll return "when he's ready," He & Sophie Raworth did a nice Two Ronnies sign off.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited April 2013

    Privatising BT was definitely a good (or at least allowing mobile phone operators to work in a competitive environment)

    Privatising BT allowed the other land line phone companies to work in a competitive environment. Mobile phones could always have been regulated separately, and were not a factor when BT was privatised. BT was always the poster child for privatisation but most of the supposed improvements were really due to technological advances.

    Mrs Thatcher may have believed in the benefits and rigours of the free market but many in government were just raising money by selling off the family silver, which is why they did not care about British companies being owned by foreign governments, just not the British government.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    ***Sunil Alert***
    Brief Encounter was partially filmed at Carnforth railway Station.
    Roger said:

    Has a more drippy looking person than Cecil Parkinson ever served in a Cabinet? He looks permanently on the verge of tears.

  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    "Cameron needs to return to the strategy that got him into no10"

    A coalition.

    Would that be holding Prime Ministerial debates, and inviting someone who has no chance of being PM.

    Maybe this time they could invite Nigel Farage.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Many countries by-passed landlines completely and went straight to cell phones.

    Privatising BT was definitely a good (or at least allowing mobile phone operators to work in a competitive environment)

    Privatising BT allowed the other land line phone companies to work in a competitive environment. Mobile phones could always have been regulated separately, and were not a factor when BT was privatised. BT was always the poster child for privatisation but most of the supposed improvements were really due to technological advances.

    Mrs Thatcher may have believed in the benefits and rigours of the free market but many in government were just raising money by selling off the family silver, which is why they did not care about British companies being owned by foreign governments, just not the British government.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    Carola said:

    Southam's point about "innate good sense of the British people" is interesting. Individually, it's not generally true - we all know people who are completely one-eyed and reject the weather forecast if made by someone with a different political view. But collectively polls usually produce a nuanced view that it's difficult totally to reject. Today's YouGov is full of examples - Labour people who approve of some of MT's policies, Tories who think recalling Parliament and a statue in Trafalgar Square would be a bit OTT.

    Maybe it's the people we hang out with. None of my friends - well, maybe one - are 'that' into politics (and I don't have time to be as into it as I'd like). They have a far more balanced view than most PBers, as they stand back far enough to see the full picture. Kind of related, beware the news:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/apr/12/news-is-bad-rolf-dobelli

    'News increases cognitive errors. News feeds the mother of all cognitive errors: confirmation bias. In the words of Warren Buffett: "What the human being is best at doing is interpreting all new information so that their prior conclusions remain intact."'
    That's a lovely article by Dobelli! And more than a grain of truth in it, though perhap reading news should be seen by most people as a hobby rather than aimed at generating useful info.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited April 2013
    I wonder how leading all these Thatcher questions were to the selected group polled by YouGov?

    Andrew Marr explained his stroke was caused by over exertion on a rowing machine tearing his carotid artery - his speech and memory are unaffected but his left side is still weak which will require intensive physiotherapy - he'll return "when he's ready," He & Sophie Raworth did a nice Two Ronnies sign off.

    I saw Andrew Marr on TV and one can see that the right side of his body is affected by the damage the stroke caused. One thing: don't use rowing machines to keep fit, the actions that according to Marr caused his heart attack.

    With all these new buttons introduced, pity there isn't one marked Stupid. ;)
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Carola said:

    Southam's point about "innate good sense of the British people" is interesting. Individually, it's not generally true - we all know people who are completely one-eyed and reject the weather forecast if made by someone with a different political view. But collectively polls usually produce a nuanced view that it's difficult totally to reject. Today's YouGov is full of examples - Labour people who approve of some of MT's policies, Tories who think recalling Parliament and a statue in Trafalgar Square would be a bit OTT.

    Maybe it's the people we hang out with. None of my friends - well, maybe one - are 'that' into politics (and I don't have time to be as into it as I'd like). They have a far more balanced view than most PBers, as they stand back far enough to see the full picture. Kind of related, beware the news:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/apr/12/news-is-bad-rolf-dobelli

    'News increases cognitive errors. News feeds the mother of all cognitive errors: confirmation bias. In the words of Warren Buffett: "What the human being is best at doing is interpreting all new information so that their prior conclusions remain intact."'
    That's a lovely article by Dobelli! And more than a grain of truth in it, though perhap reading news should be seen by most people as a hobby rather than aimed at generating useful info.
    Some interesting points that link to research I've read re the impact of tech on learning.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Main trend in the polling is the stable LAB share. See chart of YouGov daily snapshot twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/st…

    — Mike Smithson (@MSmithsonPB) April 14, 2013
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    David Blunkett has entered the fray on commentisfree:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/13/david-blunketts-vision-nation-under-labour

    So far this week we've had articles by Tony Blair, David Blunkett and Lance Price, all pushing for Ed Miliband to tack to the centre, with similar comments from Peter Mandelson and Alan Milburn. Ed Miliband is very lucky that so much attention is being paid to Mrs Thatcher's death, because otherwise this would be the main story of the week.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited April 2013
    Nick Cohen, although a lefty used to be quite sensible in his writings and utterances. Used to, that is, until he writes about Ukip. He really has flipped his lid on this. He probably sees the real threat from Ukip is taking neglected working class voters away from Labours clutches, and that in the long run are a threat to the left as well as the Tories.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/cameron-ukip-nigel-farage
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @MikeK - what did you disagree with? Do you see UKIP as 'radical right' rather than 'reactionary right'?
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    I'm not too keen on Junior's re-make of the site. I always thought I spent too much time posting here; then I noticed Wodger spends even more time.

    :note-to-me.lose-a-life:
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    " Which of the following, if any, will you most remember Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher for?

    Curbing the power of trade unions / the miners’ strike 49%
    The Falklands War 47%
    The Poll Tax 39%
    Privatisation of nationalised industries e.g. gas, electricity, telecoms 30%
    Council housing ‘right to buy’ 27%
    Unemployment 17%
    Her role in ending the Cold War 8%
    Her relationship with Europe 5%
    Northern Ireland / hunger strikes 4%
    None of the above 8%

    Respondents could choose up to three. "

    I'm amazed that ComRes neglected such seminal issues as Section 28, South Africa and General Pinochet.




  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I wouldn't read too much into Ed's leaders ratings - he's back to where he was 4 weeks ago.

    Prime Minister ratings (net good)
    Thatcher:+11
    Blair: -6
    Brown: -52
    Major: -23
    Heath: -19 (41 don't know)

    Net
    Thatcher "good for Britain" +4
    Left Country economically better off : +10
    More respected in the world : +38
    More equal society: -38
    More free society : =
    More opportunities for women: +35
    More divided: +45
    Industry more competitive: -4
    Put "Great" back into GB: -2
    Did enough to regenerate industry in areas hit by closures: -60
    Privatise BT/BG: -16
    Right to buy:+31
    Take on Unions:.+36
    Falklands: +53
    Poll Tax: -52
    Tackle inflation over unemployment: -7
    Cut tax top rate 83>40% : +10
    City Big Bang: -10
    Section 28: -9
    Single Market: =
    EEC rebate: +60

    I wonder if the negative view on privatisation - strongest among the older, might encourage Ed to challenge this part of the consensus?

    All those findings leave me impressed by the innate good sense of the British people. It's hard to disagree with the majority view on any of them.

    I'd agree - the only ones that are a little odd are privatisation (if they had said Rail, for instance, I would understand, but BT/BG I thought have been fairly successful) and the Big Bang - probably coloured by 2008 and onwards, but those who remember the City before the Big Bang would recall that it was a vested interest that served itself, not its customers or the country.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Nick Cohen on Cameron and UKIP:

    "The Tories are as frightened of taking on Ukip. They don't want to ridicule Farage, to say he offers no plan for a workable future, because they are frightened of alienating the reactionary rightwing press and their own reactionary backbenchers and activists. It is Cameron's fear, rather than any faith in the opinion polls or admiration for the statesmanlike qualities of Ed Miliband, that suggests to me the Conservatives may be in more trouble than they seem."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/cameron-ukip-nigel-farage

    I'm not a Farage fan generally, but I think he did call this BBC song thing right - Cameron and Clegg seemed pathetic saying 'it's up to the BBC' while Farage took the position of 'play it and move on - it's not important'. Far more sensible.
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    @antifrank

    It's very sad really. Because all of it amounts to 'Do what we used to do.'

    It's like an aging rock band telling young musicians that they don't understand music because they don't follow their exact chord structure.


    The world moves on. And so should they..
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    tim said:

    @MikeK

    He probably sees the real threat from Ukip is taking neglected working class voters away from Labours clutches

    UKIP voters todays YouGov

    Con 2010 17%
    Lab 2010 3%
    LD 2010 6%

    Everyone on the left is truly petrified of the damage UKIP will do to them rather than the Tories

    @MikeK - what did you disagree with? Do you see UKIP as 'radical right' rather than 'reactionary right'?

    Reply to tim: I wouldn't put my trust in YouGov regarding Ukip. Anyway May 2nd will reveal all.

    Reply to Carlotta: If you took a glance at Ukips facebook page you will not find reactionaries, rather bright modern and go-ahead people from all walks of life. If I thought that Ukip was in any way reactionary I would not be supporting them.

    Nick Cohen writes like a haunted man, poor thing.

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited April 2013
    @another_richard

    'Privatisation of nationalised industries e.g. gas, electricity, telecoms 30%'

    Unless the respondents to this poll were aged 50 or over they would have no experience of these utilities when they were state owned.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    o/t - Latest poll in Ireland has:

    FF - 27%
    FG - 24%
    SF - 16%
    Lab - 12%

    Odds on SF coming 4th drifting slightly to 5/1 (from 16/1 originally though). FG / Lab only 2/1 to form the next Government.


  • Privatising BT allowed the other land line phone companies to work in a competitive environment. Mobile phones could always have been regulated separately, and were not a factor when BT was privatised. BT was always the poster child for privatisation but most of the supposed improvements were really due to technological advances.

    I doubt it somehow. There would have been a reasonable argument to say that phones were phones and they should therefore be a monopoly run by the state owned telecomms supplier. I recall from Uni in the late 1970s some discussion that a message over a modem constituted a communication and was therefore under the purview of the GPO (BT was part of the GPO at the time). The GPO were the only authority allowed to carry communications.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    On topic: I am really surprised that the Tories have not had a hit this week. The shameless BBC Party Political Broadcast week that it has been ending with the disgraceful censorship of the people's choice, I would have thought would have led to the Tories going down a bit.

    Everyone I speak to thinks the media, aprticularly the BBC have gone OTT.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    UKIP voters todays YouGov

    Con 2010 17%
    Lab 2010 3%
    LD 2010 6%


    As I've said before I think some UKIP supporters are wrongly recording that they voted Conservative in 2010 because they were "Conservative" but didn't vote but want to feel like they're punishing their old party anyway. Even so, that effect, nor the differential above, are very significant - at the moment 1.5 percentage points (and with the UKIP vote up in the air, it's difficult to tell).
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Charles said:


    I'm not a Farage fan generally, but I think he did call this BBC song thing right

    You can rely on Farage to get all the big calls right.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    tim said:

    @anotherrichard

    Or the trebling of welfare dependency and the doubling of crime.


    So how much did welfare dependency and crime increase between 1970 and 1979?

    And how much did it increase in similar western countries?

    And how much would they have increased if Labour had been in government during the 1980s?

    And how did welfare dependency compare in 2010 to 1990?

    There were socioeconomic trends occurring which would have still have occurred whoever was prime minister and whatever governments did.

    That goes for many of the 'successes' as well as for the many of the 'failures' of Thatcher.

    Because Thatcher was so prominent throughout the 1980s she merely became the name upon which to pin things which would have happened anyway.

    Leading to the mythology of Thatcher which is often very different to the reality.


  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Neil said:

    o/t - Latest poll in Ireland has:

    FF - 27%
    FG - 24%
    SF - 16%
    Lab - 12%

    Odds on SF coming 4th drifting slightly to 5/1 (from 16/1 originally though). FG / Lab only 2/1 to form the next Government.

    Proves memories are so short. FF could barely hit 18% two years back.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited April 2013
    Neil said:

    Charles said:


    I'm not a Farage fan generally, but I think he did call this BBC song thing right

    You can rely on Farage to get all the big calls right.
    My point was more why can't Cameron and Clegg take a position over something that, fundamentally, doesn't matter rather than being so darn mealy-mouthed all the time
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MikeK said:

    tim said:

    @MikeK

    He probably sees the real threat from Ukip is taking neglected working class voters away from Labours clutches

    UKIP voters todays YouGov

    Con 2010 17%
    Lab 2010 3%
    LD 2010 6%

    Everyone on the left is truly petrified of the damage UKIP will do to them rather than the Tories

    @MikeK - what did you disagree with? Do you see UKIP as 'radical right' rather than 'reactionary right'?

    Reply to tim: I wouldn't put my trust in YouGov regarding Ukip. Anyway May 2nd will reveal all.

    Reply to Carlotta: If you took a glance at Ukips facebook page you will not find reactionaries, rather bright modern and go-ahead people from all walks of life. If I thought that Ukip was in any way reactionary I would not be supporting them.

    Nick Cohen writes like a haunted man, poor thing.

    UKIP has a facebook page ?
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited April 2013
    Off-topic:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22134809

    Desperate. The political argument has been lost; only voodoo economics prevail. I fear that my dream of an independent Scotland will be destroyed by Disney prophosies and propaganda....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    surbiton said:

    On topic: I am really surprised that the Tories have not had a hit this week. The shameless BBC Party Political Broadcast week that it has been ending with the disgraceful censorship of the people's choice, I would have thought would have led to the Tories going down a bit.

    Everyone I speak to thinks the media, aprticularly the BBC have gone OTT.

    Chalk that up as another example of the atomisation of society. All of us need to get out more and listen to the views of people that we wouldn't socialise with. One of the big dangers of modern life is that we can now sort ourselves by philosophies online, meaning that we don't have to mingle with those who we have no sympathy.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nick Watt of the Guardian on the DP: 'John Prescott is either a hypocrite or out of touch' (to complain about Thatcher's funeral plans which were drawn up by the government of which he was a member).

    Can't Prescott be both?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,014

    tim said:

    @anotherrichard

    Or the trebling of welfare dependency and the doubling of crime.


    So how much did welfare dependency and crime increase between 1970 and 1979?

    And how much did it increase in similar western countries?

    And how much would they have increased if Labour had been in government during the 1980s?

    And how did welfare dependency compare in 2010 to 1990?

    There were socioeconomic trends occurring which would have still have occurred whoever was prime minister and whatever governments did.

    That goes for many of the 'successes' as well as for the many of the 'failures' of Thatcher.

    Because Thatcher was so prominent throughout the 1980s she merely became the name upon which to pin things which would have happened anyway.

    Leading to the mythology of Thatcher which is often very different to the reality.


    So you would apply the same logic to Blair and Brown's shortcomings then. It would have happened if the Tories were in power from 1997.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @Surbiton:
    UKIP has a facebook page ?

    Yes indeedy: https://www.facebook.com/TheUKIP?ref=stream
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    edited April 2013
    MODERATED
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,014
    Charles said:

    Neil said:

    Charles said:


    I'm not a Farage fan generally, but I think he did call this BBC song thing right

    You can rely on Farage to get all the big calls right.
    My point was more why can't Cameron and Clegg take a position over something that, fundamentally, doesn't matter rather than being so darn mealy-mouthed all the time
    Charles, that is down to them being useless, spineless, self seeking donkeys. PR wonks who have no position or principles other than self promotion. Both cheeks of the same arse.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    antifrank said:

    surbiton said:

    On topic: I am really surprised that the Tories have not had a hit this week. The shameless BBC Party Political Broadcast week that it has been ending with the disgraceful censorship of the people's choice, I would have thought would have led to the Tories going down a bit.

    Everyone I speak to thinks the media, aprticularly the BBC have gone OTT.

    Chalk that up as another example of the atomisation of society. All of us need to get out more and listen to the views of people that we wouldn't socialise with. One of the big dangers of modern life is that we can now sort ourselves by philosophies online, meaning that we don't have to mingle with those who we have no sympathy.
    That's one of the advantage of PB - being able to hear from people with different backgrounds.

    Of course you still need to be open minded enough to attempt to understand where other people are coming from.

    But PB does make you both more knowledgeable and less judgmental if you are.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,531
    edited April 2013


    Desperate. The political argument has been lost; only voodoo economics prevail. I fear that my dream of an independent Scotland will be destroyed by Disney prophosies and propaganda....

    Phew, thank goodness your opinion on the matter, both of itself and in influence, is irrelevant.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited April 2013
    MODERATED


    How much was spent on Harold Wilson's funeral ? Or, was he a decent person who did not need imperial trappings.

    Harold won four general elections !
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    antifrank said:

    David Blunkett has entered the fray on commentisfree:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/13/david-blunketts-vision-nation-under-labour

    So far this week we've had articles by Tony Blair, David Blunkett and Lance Price, all pushing for Ed Miliband to tack to the centre, with similar comments from Peter Mandelson and Alan Milburn. Ed Miliband is very lucky that so much attention is being paid to Mrs Thatcher's death, because otherwise this would be the main story of the week.

    Oh dear! The English language, hey...?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Nick Watt of the Guardian on the DP: 'John Prescott is either a hypocrite or out of touch' (to complain about Thatcher's funeral plans which were drawn up by the government of which he was a member).

    Can't Prescott be both?

    Did the government follow every policy drawn up by the Labour government ?

    That is a feeble excuse. I think you should be honest. You should proclaim boldly that you support a funeral befitting a Queen. After all, even our Queen possibly can't afford to die at the Ritz.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited April 2013
    MODERATED

    Frankly, my dear....

    I'm not here for anyones' but my own amusement. First-rule when posting: Don't give-out if you can't swallow.

    Your views are yours; mine are ignorable. Judgement is a skill you have yet to learn....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    surbiton said:

    Nick Watt of the Guardian on the DP: 'John Prescott is either a hypocrite or out of touch' (to complain about Thatcher's funeral plans which were drawn up by the government of which he was a member).

    Can't Prescott be both?

    That is a feeble excuse. I think you should be honest.
    It's a fact. AFAIK the only change the current government has made has been to change the name of the operation from 'Iron Bridge' (which is wittier) to the rather pedestrian 'True Blue'.

    I think you should be honest.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    "So you would apply the same logic to Blair and Brown's shortcomings then. It would have happened if the Tories were in power from 1997."

    Much of it would have.

    Just as much of what is happening under this government would have happened under a Labour government and much of what will happen under Labour after 2015 would still happen if the Conservatives were then in power.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,531
    edited April 2013
    Andra Neil to Shapps-Green:

    'By my calculation you have two spare bedrooms. Is one of them for Michael Green?"

    Cue utterly unembarrassed snigger.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Nick Cohen on Cameron and UKIP:

    "The Tories are as frightened of taking on Ukip. They don't want to ridicule Farage, to say he offers no plan for a workable future, because they are frightened of alienating the reactionary rightwing press and their own reactionary backbenchers and activists. It is Cameron's fear, rather than any faith in the opinion polls or admiration for the statesmanlike qualities of Ed Miliband, that suggests to me the Conservatives may be in more trouble than they seem."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/14/cameron-ukip-nigel-farage

    The Tories have tried ridiculing and smearing UKIP. It didn't work.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Nick Watt of the Guardian on the DP: 'John Prescott is either a hypocrite or out of touch' (to complain about Thatcher's funeral plans which were drawn up by the government of which he was a member).

    Can't Prescott be both?

    That is a feeble excuse. I think you should be honest.
    It's a fact. AFAIK the only change the current government has made has been to change the name of the operation from 'Iron Bridge' (which is wittier) to the rather pedestrian 'True Blue'.

    I think you should be honest.

    So you are saying that this government has accepted every policy of the last Labour government ? You should go out a bit more.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    surbiton said:

    How much was spent on Harold Wilson's funeral ? Or, was he a decent person who did not need imperial trappings.

    Harold won four general elections !

    Did you question how many 'good-time' girls Wilson had to pay-off when Taffie screwed the English taxpayer (after his diary secretary)? Methinks not....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Nick Watt of the Guardian on the DP: 'John Prescott is either a hypocrite or out of touch' (to complain about Thatcher's funeral plans which were drawn up by the government of which he was a member).

    Can't Prescott be both?

    That is a feeble excuse. I think you should be honest.
    It's a fact. AFAIK the only change the current government has made has been to change the name of the operation from 'Iron Bridge' (which is wittier) to the rather pedestrian 'True Blue'.

    I think you should be honest.

    So you are saying that this government has accepted every policy of the last Labour government ? You should go out a bit more.
    No - you are inventing a 'hugely extravagant Tory Funeral' - which in fact is a 'Labour funeral'.

    Not my fault the facts upset you.

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited April 2013
    IOS said:
    What do you take from it IoS?

    I think there are some things with which few would agree: "Brave as she was at Brighton, she still began the surrender to the IRA that was completed by Anthony Blair." for example.

    Then there are some things which I agree with but since I don't go in for sycophancy I had already taken into account: whether some particular privatisations were properly undertaken, for example.

    Then there are a couple of things which I think motivate Hitchens precisely because based on her other work he had such high hopes and I think he feels let down: "And this country still has the biggest nationalised industry in the world, the great, over-rated NHS." I think he has a different attitude towards Cameron (or indeed most if not all Conservative frontbenchers) who would not privatise the NHS (in the way Hitchens imagines; not the sort of accusation being lobbed at them recently) for that reason.

    Overall I think the article is only surprising if you either believe that Thatcher could be all things to all men on the right, or that Thatcher was in Hitchens' shed when, in my opinion, she never was.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Carola said:

    Oh, and for our spazzahs followers of Wee-Timmy:

    Some may consider that £8-million on Our Mags' funeral excessive but they should look at how Labour spent English taxes. Didn't Taffie-Prescott lump ~£250k for his good-time girl diary-secretary on us English taxpayers...?

    Maybe we should shut-down Crony and Imelda's security battalion as well? Leftards: You can't make comedy like what they call logic....


    Can we bank that 'Leftard' and the similar vein but in my view even worse 'spazzah' for the next time we have the 'only lefties use such terms' debate? It's clearly not a right/left thing. It's a people like you thing.

    Frankly, my dear....

    I'm not here for anyones' but my own amusement. First-rule when posting: Don't give-out if you can't swallow.

    Your views are yours; mine are ignorable. Judgement is a skill you have yet to learn....
    'Judgement is a skill you have yet to learn....'. Well you're clearly the expert on that score, so I'll take that on board.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    tim said:

    Shapps trying to row back from Osborne's Philpott comments, floundering on the use of his own kids to promote the bedroom tax.

    He'd 'lost' that interview before it started. You only had to look at the non-v comms. Ironically, he could do with some training in the art of bluff.

    Woah! Nigel's trousers on Sunday Pol SE. I suspect he's chosen them to go with the purple chairs. Subliminal. Clever, Nige.

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited April 2013
    @FluffyThoughts

    'Some may consider that £8-million on Our Mags' funeral excessive but they should look at how Labour spent English taxes'

    It's about the equivalent cost of a single day of Tony Blair's bloodbath in Iraq.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... those who remember the City before the Big Bang would recall that it was a vested interest that served itself, not its customers or the country."

    I trust your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you wrote that, Charles. The City has always had its philanthropic individuals and institutions, one of the great shames of the place is how few people realise just how much charity work is financed by it (especially the Livery Companies). However, it also true that the City exists to make money for its members and players. The big bang changed how business is done, not the purpose of the business.
This discussion has been closed.