They are stupid. No ifs, no buts. Fine to say Europe needs to protect itself and not rely on others. Indeed, many people need to understand that and currently don't. Very foolish indeed to effectively say you're thinking of the possibility of war with your key ally, especially when it's led by a thin-skinned narcissist with a Twitter account.
Between this and his decision to honour Pétain, Macron's had a rotten week. Along with Merkel's implosion, we have to face the fact that the EU may be currently leaderless.
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
That target was just agreed in 2006 and has always been controversial because it has little relation to capabilities. It's not a foundational principle of NATO.
As it is a percentage of GDP it is by definition related to capabilities.
You can easily spend 2% of GDP and have nothing useful to show for it.
I think someone needs to consider supporting no-deal. I think perhaps I do.
The EU is just obstructing things. Any hint of a deal and all of a sudden borders in the Irish Sea, and fishing rights pop up. It's just so obvious that they want the political process to fail, and they're quite happy to spin us, the UK, into chaos, and have us come back, cap-in-hand, asking to remain.
I don't want no-deal, but neither does the EU. We'll do much better negotiating up from nothing than we will the other way.
We have no particular need to erect a border in Ireland. Let's just see how that goes. The Republic will send themselves mad fretting. I do feel a degree of sympathy for them - all disingenuous opportunists deserve that at least.
The Liverpool Echo may get the last laugh.
That's exactly what's going on.
It's perfectly obvious that the EU want to make an example of the UK.
And by god they have some useful idiots offering a helpful hand
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
That is frankly unacceptable and a sad reflection on the mentality of so many today
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
That target was just agreed in 2006 and has always been controversial because it has little relation to capabilities. It's not a foundational principle of NATO.
As it is a percentage of GDP it is by definition related to capabilities.
You can easily spend 2% of GDP and have nothing useful to show for it.
Certainly.
If you chose to do so or are incompetent.
But if you spend 2% you are likely to get more than if you spend 1%.
And European countries aren't spending 2% as they agreed to.
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
I think you've succesfully predicted 112 of the last 0 Theresa May resignations
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
That is frankly unacceptable and a sad reflection on the mentality of so many today
Sorry Big G. The last part was nasty. I shouldn't stoop to George Osborne's level...
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
I think you've succesfully predicted 112 of the last 0 Theresa May resignations
You've got to admit it does look pretty serious this time...
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
That is frankly unacceptable and a sad reflection on the mentality of so many today
Sorry Big G. The last part was nasty. I shouldn't stoop to George Osborne's level...
I apologize.
Full marks. We all need to be kinder. Many are distressed and anxious over brexit
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
That is frankly unacceptable and a sad reflection on the mentality of so many today
Sorry Big G. The last part was nasty. I shouldn't stoop to George Osborne's level...
I apologize.
Full marks. We all need to be kinder. Many are distressed and anxious over brexit
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
That is frankly unacceptable and a sad reflection on the mentality of so many today
Sorry Big G. The last part was nasty. I shouldn't stoop to George Osborne's level...
I apologize.
Full marks. We all need to be kinder. Many are distressed and anxious over brexit
You might just want to cover the possibility of the EU negotiating in bad faith over the backstop - given that has been their modus operandi for the past two years.
Looking on the bright side, at least the government is learning something about negotiating along the way.....
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
That is frankly unacceptable and a sad reflection on the mentality of so many today
Sorry Big G. The last part was nasty. I shouldn't stoop to George Osborne's level...
I apologize.
Full marks. We all need to be kinder. Many are distressed and anxious over brexit
You might just want to cover the possibility of the EU negotiating in bad faith over the backstop - given that has been their modus operandi for the past two years.
Looking on the bright side, at least the government is learning something about negotiating along the way.....
I dunno, we're the ones who agreed to it, then spent the last year trying to wriggle out of it,
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
If she had any capacity for politics beyond blind obduracy masquerading as purpose she'd switch the point of attack.
eg call an immediate 3day London Conference (of the EU's most powerful Enemies) to consider the "Way Forward In Europe 100yr after WW1".
Invite Trump, Putin, Salvini etc. Invite the French for day3(only) No need for Merkel/Juncker obv..
Agenda : 1) The Inner German Border - A good Idea? 2) Lots of lovely cheap access to the UK SM.
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
If she had any capacity for politics beyond blind obduracy masquerading as purpose she'd switch the point of attack.
eg call an immediate 3day London Conference (of the EU's most powerful Enemies) to consider the "Way Forward In Europe 100yr after WW1".
Invite Trump, Putin, Salvini etc. Invite the French for day3(only) No need for Merkel/Juncker obv..
Agenda : 1) The Inner German Border - A good Idea? 2) Lots of lovely cheap access to the UK SM.
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
If she had any capacity for politics beyond blind obduracy masquerading as purpose she'd switch the point of attack.
eg call an immediate 3day London Conference (of the EU's most powerful Enemies) to consider the "Way Forward In Europe 100yr after WW1".
Invite Trump, Putin, Salvini etc. Invite the French for day3(only) No need for Merkel/Juncker obv..
Agenda : 1) The Inner German Border - A good Idea? 2) Lots of lovely cheap access to the UK SM.
Stick a poker up there ars*s.
You are under the misapprehension that we hold all the cards.
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
Well, the figures are all a bit pliable. The US, for example, includes the Department of Veterans Affairs - which supplies pensions and healthcare to all people used to serve in the armed forces or the DOD - in its calculation of Defence Spending. Given how expensive healthcare in the US is, and that - due to conscription in the 1960s and early 1970s - there are a lot of veterans, and they are increasingly expensive from a healthcare perspective. (As in, there are a lot of them around the age of 60-70.) The Department for Veterans Affairs has a budget - at close to $200bn - equivalent to the military spending of the UK, France, Germany and Japan combined.
France, at 2.3% of GDP, definitely meets NATO commitments. Germany, at 1.2%, definitely doesn't. Most of the rest of Europe is pretty close: we're 1.8%, and Italy is 2%.
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
That target was just agreed in 2006 and has always been controversial because it has little relation to capabilities. It's not a foundational principle of NATO.
Perhaps not, but it’s ludicrous to suggest that Europe has not neglected its defence.
If you exclude the department for veterans affairs, it's quite likely that France spends a higher percentage of GDP on defence than the US.
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
If she had any capacity for politics beyond blind obduracy masquerading as purpose she'd switch the point of attack.
eg call an immediate 3day London Conference (of the EU's most powerful Enemies) to consider the "Way Forward In Europe 100yr after WW1".
Invite Trump, Putin, Salvini etc. Invite the French for day3(only) No need for Merkel/Juncker obv..
Agenda : 1) The Inner German Border - A good Idea? 2) Lots of lovely cheap access to the UK SM.
Stick a poker up there ars*s.
Be Trump and Putin's minions?
No, lets make Britain sane again.
If you actually think that is a likely outcome, get some help understanding those yellow things on the side of roads. Life will be easier..
The flaw with this plan is that it exists for the situation where the UK can't agree the EU terms and yet it expects the EU pick up negotiations again but this time drop its demands. Why wouldn't it demand the same thing again?
Though that does sound consistent with the “lifeboat” deal Juncker talked about some months back if no proper WA can be agreed. Enough to keep the planes flying and the Channel ports moving albeit nothing like as frictionless as now.
This time next week Theresa May really could be a dead woman walking - Having resigned as leader of the Conservative Party and just acting a PM until Con sort out a new leader.
After which she has a date with George Osborne's freezer...
If she had any capacity for politics beyond blind obduracy masquerading as purpose she'd switch the point of attack.
eg call an immediate 3day London Conference (of the EU's most powerful Enemies) to consider the "Way Forward In Europe 100yr after WW1".
Invite Trump, Putin, Salvini etc. Invite the French for day3(only) No need for Merkel/Juncker obv..
Agenda : 1) The Inner German Border - A good Idea? 2) Lots of lovely cheap access to the UK SM.
Stick a poker up there ars*s.
You are under the misapprehension that we hold all the cards.
We only have Old Maids
We don't but others do and we can helpful.. It's called politics.
As an aside, it is really only Germany I have a big problem with in terms of defence spending. It's armed forces are a joke, and it relies on the help of others through NATO.
Given that Germany is likely to run a budget surplus of around 1.5% of GDP this year, this really isn't acceptable. Other countries - like Spain, for example - at least have the excuse of having been through a serious period of austerity.
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
We have spent months going down a rabbit hole, off a rabbit hole, off a rabbit hole......
We've tried. But it's time to deploy the "well, fuck right off then" approach. There's £39 billion available. The EU aren't dealing in good faith - so here's our take-it-or-leave-it offer on the table: the UK gets to decide whether we have met the criteria on the backstop. Agree to that, or it's a no deal. Down to you, guys.
Oh, and to concentrate minds, the £39 billion on offer reduces by a billion a day from next Wednesday....
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
But hey, they don't have to face the wrath of those crazy little people called voters.....
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
But hey, they don't have to face the wrath of those crazy little people called voters.....
They do. Well, not the Commission, but the governments of the EU27, several of which would be really badly hit, notably Ireland, Malta, Cyprus, as well as parts of France, Italy and Spain.
The flaw with this plan is that it exists for the situation where the UK can't agree the EU terms and yet it expects the EU pick up negotiations again but this time drop its demands. Why wouldn't it demand the same thing again?
Though that does sound consistent with the “lifeboat” deal Juncker talked about some months back if no proper WA can be agreed. Enough to keep the planes flying and the Channel ports moving albeit nothing like as frictionless as now.
But those are only EU ad hoc unilateral measures until the UK comes back to the negotiating table, at which point the shopping list reappears
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
Indeed. So Trump should be happy Macron proposes to spend more. The real problem is that Trump conflates defence spending with US subsidy of European nations.
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
Dearie me, this is not a 'problem', it is a benefit.
Also, it will finally turn the Tory party from management of decline to actually taking responsibility and getting something done for the People.
Alternatively, it'll kill the Tories as a party of government for 10y+.
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
Indeed. So Trump should be happy Macron proposes to spend more. The real problem is that Trump conflates defence spending with US subsidy of European nations.
Isn't the whole point of an EU army that the individual countries pay even less?
Telling that they are rejecting independent arbitration. I suspect they want the ECJ to do it.
That was nailed on from the start. The EU isn't going to do anything different to accommodate the UK for its own institutions, such as the Customs Union.
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
Dearie me, this is not a 'problem', it is a benefit.
Also, it will finally turn the Tory party from management of decline to actually taking responsibility and getting something done for the People.
Alternatively, it'll kill the Tories as a party of government for 10y+.
Something for everybody..
What about people who just want the country run competently?
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
Indeed. So Trump should be happy Macron proposes to spend more. The real problem is that Trump conflates defence spending with US subsidy of European nations.
Isn't the whole point of an EU army that the individual countries pay even less?
The EU isn't really proposing an army. It's a coordinated shared capability. So Germany and Romania might have a shared battalion where Germany provides the equipment and training and Romania most of the soldiers. It is also a way bringing in the Swedes and Finns, who aren't part of NATO. It is also a symbolic, political project
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
Indeed. So Trump should be happy Macron proposes to spend more. The real problem is that Trump conflates defence spending with US subsidy of European nations.
Isn't the whole point of an EU army that the individual countries pay even less?
The EU isn't really proposing an army. It's a coordinated shared capability. So Germany and Romania might have a shared battalion where Germany provides the equipment and training and Romania most of the soldiers. It is also a way bringing in the Swedes and Finns, who aren't part of NATO. It is also a symbolic, political project
Sure, that's how it's sold. But we all know where it leads.
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
Dearie me, this is not a 'problem', it is a benefit.
Also, it will finally turn the Tory party from management of decline to actually taking responsibility and getting something done for the People.
Alternatively, it'll kill the Tories as a party of government for 10y+.
Something for everybody..
What about people who just want the country run competently?
People will be found.
It is fundamental to *our* system of democracy.
No particular permanent rules, just a malleable framework.
MrsMay is not just useless, she's a disaster. There is is better out there..
Oh my days..... 2 hour 20 mins set.... Aging fans not used to standing for so long saw a few fallers towards the home strait and worth every penny. The politicians may be pants but we can still do music in this country...
Oh my days..... 2 hour 20 mins set.... Aging fans not used to standing for so long saw a few fallers towards the home strait and worth every penny. The politicians may be pants but we can still do music in this country...
Macron is right. If the Europeans want to increase defence spending then their interests are better served by doing it an EU framework. NATO's policy objectives are always 100% aligned with US interests so why should the EU subsidse the US in that manner?
Oh my days..... 2 hour 20 mins set.... Aging fans not used to standing for so long saw a few fallers towards the home strait and worth every penny. The politicians may be pants but we can still do music in this country...
Fantastic. The reworking of subculture was the highlight for me but what a gig that was. At the end when the lights came on the audience looked so deathly pale and out on their collective feet.
Oh my days..... 2 hour 20 mins set.... Aging fans not used to standing for so long saw a few fallers towards the home strait and worth every penny. The politicians may be pants but we can still do music in this country...
Fantastic. The reworking of subculture was the highlight for me but what a gig that was. At the end when the lights came on the audience looked so deathly pale and out on their collective feet.
In the end you will submit It's got to hurt a little bit
Oh my days..... 2 hour 20 mins set.... Aging fans not used to standing for so long saw a few fallers towards the home strait and worth every penny. The politicians may be pants but we can still do music in this country...
Fantastic. The reworking of subculture was the highlight for me but what a gig that was. At the end when the lights came on the audience looked so deathly pale and out on their collective feet.
In the end you will submit It's got to hurt a little bit
Oh my days..... 2 hour 20 mins set.... Aging fans not used to standing for so long saw a few fallers towards the home strait and worth every penny. The politicians may be pants but we can still do music in this country...
Fantastic. The reworking of subculture was the highlight for me but what a gig that was. At the end when the lights came on the audience looked so deathly pale and out on their collective feet.
In the end you will submit It's got to hurt a little bit
Oakeshott being yet another journo/policy wonk from the Right who personally will lose nothing, other than a slight delay boarding eurostar for their next weekend away.
Meanwhile my family members are reliant on medicines that may not be available in April.
Oakeshott being yet another journo/policy wonk from the Right who personally will lose nothing, other than a slight delay boarding eurostar for their next weekend away.
Meanwhile my family members are reliant on medicines that may not be available in April.
I refuse to believe a deal wouldn’t be worked out covering essentials like that. Are the EU really so callous?
We have spent months going down a rabbit hole, off a rabbit hole, off a rabbit hole......
We've tried. But it's time to deploy the "well, fuck right off then" approach. There's £39 billion available. The EU aren't dealing in good faith - so here's our take-it-or-leave-it offer on the table: the UK gets to decide whether we have met the criteria on the backstop. Agree to that, or it's a no deal. Down to you, guys.
Oh, and to concentrate minds, the £39 billion on offer reduces by a billion a day from next Wednesday....
They'll just say "no deal", then wait for our complete capitulation over the winter. And if we somehow stick to our pointed-at-our-own-heads guns, it'll turn out that the price tag for those reciprocal agreements we'd desperately need to rush through would be somewhere in the region of 39 billion...
Oakeshott being yet another journo/policy wonk from the Right who personally will lose nothing, other than a slight delay boarding eurostar for their next weekend away.
Meanwhile my family members are reliant on medicines that may not be available in April.
I refuse to believe a deal wouldn’t be worked out covering essentials like that. Are the EU really so callous?
You want to rely on that? It is not about personal vindictiveness, but laws, rules, civil servants, pen pusher etc.
I'm sure no one in EU wants to stop my family members getting their drugs, but oh well there's some issue at Dover and some paper work and oh well these things are difficult...
Oakeshott being yet another journo/policy wonk from the Right who personally will lose nothing, other than a slight delay boarding eurostar for their next weekend away.
Meanwhile my family members are reliant on medicines that may not be available in April.
I refuse to believe a deal wouldn’t be worked out covering essentials like that. Are the EU really so callous?
You want to rely on that? It is not about personal vindictiveness, but laws, rules, civil servants, pen pusher etc.
I'm sure no one in EU wants to stop my family members getting their drugs, but oh well there's some issue at Dover and some paper work and oh well these things are difficult...
Oakeshott being yet another journo/policy wonk from the Right who personally will lose nothing, other than a slight delay boarding eurostar for their next weekend away.
Meanwhile my family members are reliant on medicines that may not be available in April.
I refuse to believe a deal wouldn’t be worked out covering essentials like that. Are the EU really so callous?
The EU will also face serious medicine shortages in the event of a no deal no deal as some supplies are wholly dependent on the UK. Just as well they haven’t degraded EMA capacity by 30%....
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
Dearie me, this is not a 'problem', it is a benefit.
Also, it will finally turn the Tory party from management of decline to actually taking responsibility and getting something done for the People.
Alternatively, it'll kill the Tories as a party of government for 10y+.
Something for everybody..
What about people who just want the country run competently?
People will be found.
It is fundamental to *our* system of democracy.
No particular permanent rules, just a malleable framework.
MrsMay is not just useless, she's a disaster. There is is better out there..
Which of the liars, incompetents, racists, buffoons, shits and fools that make up Brexit supporters are you pinning your hopes on?
Your post is Brexit in a nutshell - something will turn up. Life rarely works like that.
You win big and we agree to shut up for a generation.
You did that last time.
You're getting this wrong.
We're in a situation where hardcore leavers will never shut up. There will always be something to moan about, to whine about; someone else to blame for supposed ills that are, in fact, our own responsibility.
It's far easier to blame other people and scream "The EU!", "Immigrants!" than it is to take a good, long hard look at our own decisions.
So I fail to see why remainers who believe that EU membership is a positive should shut up, either. We've had decades of leavers poisoning debate; they can now expect remainers to treat them with the same contempt.
On a side issue: too many people are seeing Brexit as a panacea that will cure what they see as the country's problems. We'll be free, dammit, and everyone will do what we want!
Note the “I don’t know him personally” qualification. Whitaker has bee appointed to do a job - do his utmost to sabotage the Mueller investigation. after that he is disposable.
It is as though America is determined to find out how it would have played out if Nixon hadn’t resigned.
Various thoughts: 3) The most interesting UK economic stat for today was the continued increase in house building, with that and house price growth reduced to manageable levels I wonder if the Conservatives will get a boost from Generation Now Able To Buy
An unholy alliance of the ERG, Remainers, Labour, the LibDems, the DUP, the SNP, the Irish Republic and the EU seems hell-bent of leaving Mrs May with no option but to come to parliament and explain that a deal is not possible, not least because they won't vote for one.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
Dearie me, this is not a 'problem', it is a benefit.
Also, it will finally turn the Tory party from management of decline to actually taking responsibility and getting something done for the People.
Alternatively, it'll kill the Tories as a party of government for 10y+.
Something for everybody..
What about people who just want the country run competently?
People will be found.
It is fundamental to *our* system of democracy.
No particular permanent rules, just a malleable framework.
MrsMay is not just useless, she's a disaster. There is is better out there..
Which of the liars, incompetents, racists, buffoons, shits and fools that make up Brexit supporters are you pinning your hopes on?
Your post is Brexit in a nutshell - something will turn up. Life rarely works like that.
To be fair something usually does turn up, but there’s an equal chance of that something making things worse.
You win big and we agree to shut up for a generation.
You did that last time.
....On a side issue: too many people are seeing Brexit as a panacea that will cure what they see as the country's problems. We'll be free, dammit, and everyone will do what we want!
It's a dangerous attitude, and it's deluded.
I don’t think it a side issue at all; it is rather the fundamental issue.
You win big and we agree to shut up for a generation.
You did that last time.
You're getting this wrong.
We're in a situation where hardcore leavers will never shut up. There will always be something to moan about, to whine about; someone else to blame for supposed ills that are, in fact, our own responsibility.
It's far easier to blame other people and scream "The EU!", "Immigrants!" than it is to take a good, long hard look at our own decisions.
So I fail to see why remainers who believe that EU membership is a positive should shut up, either. We've had decades of leavers poisoning debate; they can now expect remainers to treat them with the same contempt.
On a side issue: too many people are seeing Brexit as a panacea that will cure what they see as the country's problems. We'll be free, dammit, and everyone will do what we want!
As a non hairy palmed person, it occurred to me that since we do not know the detail of May's deal with the Eu, all the talk both for and against is just speculation. One thing you can be sure of is that both sides are lying about the effect.
Rare to find myself in agreement with the orang-utan, but...
I don't agree, on grounds of logic. NATO - staffing, HQ etc - is directly funded according to a formula based on national income. Members make a much more significant contribution by having personnel and materiel available to the common NATO cause. Trump presumably is referring to the US' relatively large military when he talks about subsidy. But that's what Macron is proposing to increase in Europe
You do know that NATO members are also committed to spending 2% of GDP on defensive capability, don't you? And that none of them do (I don't think even we do now)?
Indeed. So Trump should be happy Macron proposes to spend more. The real problem is that Trump conflates defence spending with US subsidy of European nations.
Isn't the whole point of an EU army that the individual countries pay even less?
The EU isn't really proposing an army. It's a coordinated shared capability. So Germany and Romania might have a shared battalion where Germany provides the equipment and training and Romania most of the soldiers. It is also a way bringing in the Swedes and Finns, who aren't part of NATO. It is also a symbolic, political project
Yeah right. Pull the other one it’s got bells on.
This is exactly the sort of salami slice the whole edifice is built on. The problem in a nutshell.
A little coordinating here, a little alignment there, just a bit more harmonisation, etc etc, and hey presto you end up in a place the electorate wouldn’t want to go to in a month of Sundays, and all without the tiresome need of convincing anybody to vote for it. I believe Jean Monet predicted it all as a modus operandi- so at least he was honest.
It’s how we went from an overwhelmingly trade biased agreement of nine, with vetos galore to a continent wide union stuffed with QMV. “European Citizenship”, and Jean Claude Juncker having a say over my life.
You win big and we agree to shut up for a generation.
You did that last time.
You're getting this wrong.
We're in a situation where hardcore leavers will never shut up. There will always be something to moan about, to whine about; someone else to blame for supposed ills that are, in fact, our own responsibility.
It's far easier to blame other people and scream "The EU!", "Immigrants!" than it is to take a good, long hard look at our own decisions.
So I fail to see why remainers who believe that EU membership is a positive should shut up, either. We've had decades of leavers poisoning debate; they can now expect remainers to treat them with the same contempt.
On a side issue: too many people are seeing Brexit as a panacea that will cure what they see as the country's problems. We'll be free, dammit, and everyone will do what we want!
It's a dangerous attitude, and it's deluded.
Simplistic solutions attract simpletons.
Nevertheless politicians have a responsibility to speak up for the interests of the country and yet, as JJ says, have badly let us down.
The reason Boris is held in such contempt is that he is the worst - his personal instincts are liberal and pro-European, as shared by the rest of his family, yet both as a journalist and a politician he sold out to the temptation of using the EU issue to attract attention and further his own career.
We have spent months going down a rabbit hole, off a rabbit hole, off a rabbit hole......
We've tried. But it's time to deploy the "well, fuck right off then" approach. There's £39 billion available. The EU aren't dealing in good faith - so here's our take-it-or-leave-it offer on the table: the UK gets to decide whether we have met the criteria on the backstop. Agree to that, or it's a no deal. Down to you, guys.
Oh, and to concentrate minds, the £39 billion on offer reduces by a billion a day from next Wednesday....
Aren't there legal consequences regarding the £39 billion?
You win big and we agree to shut up for a generation.
You did that last time.
You're getting this wrong.
We're in a situation where hardcore leavers will never shut up. There will always be something to moan about, to whine about; someone else to blame for supposed ills that are, in fact, our own responsibility.
It's far easier to blame other people and scream "The EU!", "Immigrants!" than it is to take a good, long hard look at our own decisions.
So I fail to see why remainers who believe that EU membership is a positive should shut up, either. We've had decades of leavers poisoning debate; they can now expect remainers to treat them with the same contempt.
On a side issue: too many people are seeing Brexit as a panacea that will cure what they see as the country's problems. We'll be free, dammit, and everyone will do what we want!
It's a dangerous attitude, and it's deluded.
Simplistic solutions attract simpletons.
Nevertheless politicians have a responsibility to speak up for the interests of the country and yet, as JJ says, have badly let us down.
The reason Boris is held in such contempt is that he is the worst - his personal instincts are liberal and pro-European, as shared by the rest of his family, yet both as a journalist and a politician he sold out to the temptation of using the EU issue to attract attention and further his own career.
In defence (slightly) of politicians, a big reason that they've let us down is that the great British public don't want to hear hard truths. It's much easier to believe simplistic so-called 'solutions' than complex solutions that will work.
Take railway renationalisation. People seem to want it because it will 'improve' the railways. And there is a chance it may: then again, there's a better chance IMO it would be a disaster, especially as the people running the railways would largely be the people leading to the current problems.
It's a simple solution that's easy to sell, but the chances are it wouldn't work.
Comments
If you chose to do so or are incompetent.
But if you spend 2% you are likely to get more than if you spend 1%.
And European countries aren't spending 2% as they agreed to.
I apologize.
Looking on the bright side, at least the government is learning something about negotiating along the way.....
If she had any capacity for politics beyond blind obduracy masquerading as purpose she'd switch the point of attack.
eg call an immediate 3day London Conference (of the EU's most powerful Enemies) to consider the "Way Forward In Europe 100yr after WW1".
Invite Trump, Putin, Salvini etc. Invite the French for day3(only) No need for Merkel/Juncker obv..
Agenda :
1) The Inner German Border - A good Idea?
2) Lots of lovely cheap access to the UK SM.
Stick a poker up there ars*s.
No, lets make Britain sane again.
We only have Old Maids
France, at 2.3% of GDP, definitely meets NATO commitments. Germany, at 1.2%, definitely doesn't. Most of the rest of Europe is pretty close: we're 1.8%, and Italy is 2%.
Given that Germany is likely to run a budget surplus of around 1.5% of GDP this year, this really isn't acceptable. Other countries - like Spain, for example - at least have the excuse of having been through a serious period of austerity.
That would be a victory of sorts for the ERG. Not so good for the UK economy, the Irish economy, the EU economy, or political stability in Europe, and of course (if the EU are to be believed), a direct torpedo into the EU's primary goal of not having a hard border.
It would be an utterly bizarre outcome, which no-one actually wants (even the headbangers want some kind of deal). But that is the logic of the behaviour of the various parties.
Edit: The only consolation I can see is the entertainment of seeing the EU belatedly realise that by over-reaching, they've blown €38bn and wrecked significant chunks of their economies. But it's not much consolation given that it will also wreck significant chunks of ours.
We've tried. But it's time to deploy the "well, fuck right off then" approach. There's £39 billion available. The EU aren't dealing in good faith - so here's our take-it-or-leave-it offer on the table: the UK gets to decide whether we have met the criteria on the backstop. Agree to that, or it's a no deal. Down to you, guys.
Oh, and to concentrate minds, the £39 billion on offer reduces by a billion a day from next Wednesday....
Also, it will finally turn the Tory party from management of decline to actually taking responsibility and getting something done for the People.
Alternatively, it'll kill the Tories as a party of government for 10y+.
Something for everybody..
https://www.thelocal.se/20181105/swedish-moderates-leader-ulf-kristersson-to-be-proposed-as-pm
It is fundamental to *our* system of democracy.
No particular permanent rules, just a malleable framework.
MrsMay is not just useless, she's a disaster. There is is better out there..
It's got to hurt a little bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSfjtdnUsls
Ok. Let's do it.
You win big and we agree to shut up for a generation.
Meanwhile my family members are reliant on medicines that may not be available in April.
I'm sure no one in EU wants to stop my family members getting their drugs, but oh well there's some issue at Dover and some paper work and oh well these things are difficult...
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1061096817776037888?s=20
Your post is Brexit in a nutshell - something will turn up. Life rarely works like that.
My old position is there too - never ever seen a market be resurrected like that before.
We're in a situation where hardcore leavers will never shut up. There will always be something to moan about, to whine about; someone else to blame for supposed ills that are, in fact, our own responsibility.
It's far easier to blame other people and scream "The EU!", "Immigrants!" than it is to take a good, long hard look at our own decisions.
So I fail to see why remainers who believe that EU membership is a positive should shut up, either. We've had decades of leavers poisoning debate; they can now expect remainers to treat them with the same contempt.
On a side issue: too many people are seeing Brexit as a panacea that will cure what they see as the country's problems. We'll be free, dammit, and everyone will do what we want!
It's a dangerous attitude, and it's deluded.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/416044-ex-white-house-counsel-interviewed-whitaker-about-joining-trumps
Note the “I don’t know him personally” qualification.
Whitaker has bee appointed to do a job - do his utmost to sabotage the Mueller investigation.
after that he is disposable.
It is as though America is determined to find out how it would have played out if Nixon hadn’t resigned.
Thanks
This is exactly the sort of salami slice the whole edifice is built on. The problem in a nutshell.
A little coordinating here, a little alignment there, just a bit more harmonisation, etc etc, and hey presto you end up in a place the electorate wouldn’t want to go to in a month of Sundays, and all without the tiresome need of convincing anybody to vote for it. I believe Jean Monet predicted it all as a modus operandi- so at least he was honest.
It’s how we went from an overwhelmingly trade biased agreement of nine, with vetos galore to a continent wide union stuffed with QMV. “European Citizenship”, and Jean Claude Juncker having a say over my life.
The reason Boris is held in such contempt is that he is the worst - his personal instincts are liberal and pro-European, as shared by the rest of his family, yet both as a journalist and a politician he sold out to the temptation of using the EU issue to attract attention and further his own career.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/09/flake-2020-trump-980914
Take railway renationalisation. People seem to want it because it will 'improve' the railways. And there is a chance it may: then again, there's a better chance IMO it would be a disaster, especially as the people running the railways would largely be the people leading to the current problems.
It's a simple solution that's easy to sell, but the chances are it wouldn't work.
(No, incidentally, I don't think we should and certainly I don't think we will. I just like that pun.)
Because men only get to Heaven by a close shave.