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  • RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    Big mistake - it's useful to know who are the people who like such things.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    edited November 2018

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    And mine would be to double all taxes on people who buy Apple products, which cannot even survive a little contact with Helium. ;)
  • RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    An act which unleashes a fierce violent resistance from the Pineapple Liberation Front, the Liberation Front of Pineapple, the Popular Pineapple Front, Pineapple Republican Army, Pineapple National Liberation Army, Pineapple Volunteer Force, Pineapple Defence Association, and the Pineapple People's Front.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Anazina said:

    I could never be completely sure that any government would spend their money well. I'd have to wait for the manifesto/campaign to get a better sense of where it'd be going. Out of interest, what do you think is the real need he'd neglect, and the peripheries he'd spend on instead?

    He'd neglect anyone or anything that doesn't fit into his narrow left-wing, anti-Semitic and terrorist-supporting worldview, however deserved.

    As an example, when MoL, Ken Livingstone with Chavez to get cheap oil from Venezuela. History will show this as being of virtually no benefit to Londoners, and a massive negative to Venezuelans. It helped Chavez and his regime, however.

    Please forgive the Mail link:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.html
    What has Ken’s mayoral trip to Venezuela got to do with Corbyn?
    Ken is a lefty, and an anti-Semite. Corbyn is the same.

    They are also friends.

    Next.
  • stodge said:


    You may find that that is not a view widely held by many.

    Tax rises are ok by the public unless they are mine

    I'd pay more in tax to ensure the elderly are treated with dignity and proper care. We all have a responsibility and a duty to ensure older people get to enjoy their latter years and are treated with respect.

    I don't think that can happen when so much care home provision seems to operate more on the basis of the Owners making money than on providing proper care and respect for those being looked after (and that includes paying the staff decent living wages)
    In regard to your last paragraph my experience with my late sister was that the £39,500 annual cost paid under continuing care at her nursing home was substantially less than private patients paid to close the shortfall in running costs. The increasing national living wage has caused major problems and there is hardly a private nursing home making profits and many have closed

    No one is addressing social care as it is almost impossible to see where the additional 30 billion a year is going to come from other than peoples homes, and we all know how that ended
  • rpjs said:
    Mr Kipper???
    Ouch.
  • kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    Big mistake - it's useful to know who are the people who like such things.
    I know the people, they are people are without taste, they are lucky I don't deny them the vote.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    I could never be completely sure that any government would spend their money well. I'd have to wait for the manifesto/campaign to get a better sense of where it'd be going. Out of interest, what do you think is the real need he'd neglect, and the peripheries he'd spend on instead?

    He'd neglect anyone or anything that doesn't fit into his narrow left-wing, anti-Semitic and terrorist-supporting worldview, however deserved.

    As an example, when MoL, Ken Livingstone with Chavez to get cheap oil from Venezuela. History will show this as being of virtually no benefit to Londoners, and a massive negative to Venezuelans. It helped Chavez and his regime, however.

    Please forgive the Mail link:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.html
    What has Ken’s mayoral trip to Venezuela got to do with Corbyn?
    Ken is a lefty, and an anti-Semite. Corbyn is the same.

    They are also friends.

    Next.
    Not really relevant at all though is it? Your logic is failing you this evening.
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    stodge said:


    You may find that that is not a view widely held by many.

    Tax rises are ok by the public unless they are mine

    I'd pay more in tax to ensure the elderly are treated with dignity and proper care. We all have a responsibility and a duty to ensure older people get to enjoy their latter years and are treated with respect.

    I don't think that can happen when so much care home provision seems to operate more on the basis of the Owners making money than on providing proper care and respect for those being looked after (and that includes paying the staff decent living wages)
    In regard to your last paragraph my experience with my late sister was that the £39,500 annual cost paid under continuing care at her nursing home was substantially less than private patients paid to close the shortfall in running costs. The increasing national living wage has caused major problems and there is hardly a private nursing home making profits and many have closed

    No one is addressing social care as it is almost impossible to see where the additional 30 billion a year is going to come from other than peoples homes, and we all know how that ended
    With no carers , due to them being mostly Filipino or from other countries, being paid minimum wage, intolerable conditions and work demands, there is no chance of them being replaced by UK citizens. I've seen them, respected them, and there is no way I would want to do it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    An act which unleashes a fierce violent resistance from the Pineapple Liberation Front, the Liberation Front of Pineapple, the Popular Pineapple Front, Pineapple Republican Army, Pineapple National Liberation Army, Pineapple Volunteer Force, Pineapple Defence Association, and the Pineapple People's Front.
    Splitters (or is that the bananas)?
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited November 2018

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    My first act would be to ban all screenings of The Last Jedi outside penitentiaries, where twice daily watching will be compulsory.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    My first act would be to ban all screenings of The Last Jedi outside penitentiaries, where twice daily watching will be compulsory.
    Forcing the watching of that every night would surely do wonders for the recidivism rate but we may need to withdraw from the ECHR first.
  • Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    My first act would be to ban all screenings of The Last Jedi outside penitentiaries, where twice daily watching will be compulsory.
    Forcing the watching of that every night would surely do wonders for the recidivism rate but we may need to withdraw from the ECHR first.
    So split it in two - first and third acts.
  • OchEye said:

    stodge said:


    You may find that that is not a view widely held by many.

    Tax rises are ok by the public unless they are mine

    I'd pay more in tax to ensure the elderly are treated with dignity and proper care. We all have a responsibility and a duty to ensure older people get to enjoy their latter years and are treated with respect.

    I don't think that can happen when so much care home provision seems to operate more on the basis of the Owners making money than on providing proper care and respect for those being looked after (and that includes paying the staff decent living wages)
    In regard to your last paragraph my experience with my late sister was that the £39,500 annual cost paid under continuing care at her nursing home was substantially less than private patients paid to close the shortfall in running costs. The increasing national living wage has caused major problems and there is hardly a private nursing home making profits and many have closed

    No one is addressing social care as it is almost impossible to see where the additional 30 billion a year is going to come from other than peoples homes, and we all know how that ended
    With no carers , due to them being mostly Filipino or from other countries, being paid minimum wage, intolerable conditions and work demands, there is no chance of them being replaced by UK citizens. I've seen them, respected them, and there is no way I would want to do it.
    Not sure of your point but my sisters nursing home had lovely staff including a Filipino staff nurse. Their working environment was far from intolerable and most were paid more than the minimum wage. But the bigger point is that this work attracts EU and other immigrants who should be welcome here and that is why Farage and his like disgusts me
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
    NPxMP says she's a good egg, and from the BBC story...

    The 43-year-old MP has represented Chatham and Aylesford, in Kent, since 2010
    She was promoted to the front bench as sports minister in 2015
    She is known for her opposition to fox hunting and her love of football - she is a qualified FA coach
    Grammar school educated at Folkestone School for Girls, she went on to get a degree in law and politics from Hull University
    She had worked for various Tory MPs, including Michael Howard and David Davis before standing for election
    She had her first child in 2016 and is thought to have been the first Tory minister to take maternity leave
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
  • ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Nah, it is the scientist in me.

    Karma is positively Newtonian, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    I could never be completely sure that any government would spend their money well. I'd have to wait for the manifesto/campaign to get a better sense of where it'd be going. Out of interest, what do you think is the real need he'd neglect, and the peripheries he'd spend on instead?

    He'd neglect anyone or anything that doesn't fit into his narrow left-wing, anti-Semitic and terrorist-supporting worldview, however deserved.

    As an example, when MoL, Ken Livingstone with Chavez to get cheap oil from Venezuela. History will show this as being of virtually no benefit to Londoners, and a massive negative to Venezuelans. It helped Chavez and his regime, however.

    Please forgive the Mail link:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.html
    What has Ken’s mayoral trip to Venezuela got to do with Corbyn?
    Ken is a lefty, and an anti-Semite. Corbyn is the same.

    They are also friends.

    Next.
    Not really relevant at all though is it? Your logic is failing you this evening.
    It is relevant. Why did Ken do that deal? There was no geopolitical advantage, and f'all for Londoners. It was to do with ideology: he liked Chavez's ideology and wanted to line the pockets of Chavez help the people of Venezuela rather than his own constituents.

    That is exactly what would happen under a Corbyn government. People who fitted his worldview - however rich or immoral or evil - would get help over the poor and/or moral who did not fit his worldview.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable

    I'd be surprised if they couldn't implement the £2 limit overnight on 90%+ of machines (the network-connected ones). The rest a few days max via flash drives.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    The Black Death was in the last 700 years right?
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
    NPxMP says she's a good egg, and from the BBC story...

    The 43-year-old MP has represented Chatham and Aylesford, in Kent, since 2010
    She was promoted to the front bench as sports minister in 2015
    She is known for her opposition to fox hunting and her love of football - she is a qualified FA coach
    Grammar school educated at Folkestone School for Girls, she went on to get a degree in law and politics from Hull University
    She had worked for various Tory MPs, including Michael Howard and David Davis before standing for election
    She had her first child in 2016 and is thought to have been the first Tory minister to take maternity leave
    What's her views on grammar schools, might be a deal breaker for me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited November 2018
    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    The Black Death was in the last 700 years right?
    Started in England - exact entry point disputed - in summer 1348. So 670 years ago.

    Edit - so another example of hyperbole. I doubt if 40% of the population will die and entire towns disappear.
  • Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    I'm always curious in these sorts of over the top claims how people choose their time period. Why 700, not 800 or 600, or whatever? If it is chosen at random why did 800 seem too much and 600 not enough, if it is not at random, it would be nice if they explained why it was not worse than an event 701 years ago at least.

    Good use of potentially though, totally covered.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    The Black Death was in the last 700 years right?
    Started in England - exact entry point disputed - in summer 1348. So 670 years ago.

    Edit - so another example of hyperbole. I doubt if 40% of the population will die and entire towns disappear.
    Well, hopefully a Brexiteer will not suggest that would be worth if for the improved economic and social standing of the common man in the decades afterwards.
  • ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    The Black Death was in the last 700 years right?
    Started in England - exact entry point disputed - in summer 1348. So 670 years ago.

    Edit - so another example of hyperbole. I doubt if 40% of the population will die and entire towns disappear.
    Just you wait, in the events of medicine shortages due to Brexit I'd expect it to get very very ugly.

    Especially for those who promised us a no risk, sunlit upland Brexit.
  • Just imagine being a survivor of the Black Death. The effect on the psyche must have been extreme. You get a glimpse of it in Piers Plowman but it is hard to imagine just how devastating it must have been.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    McDonnell is very clever to support the tax cuts. Makes Labour seem cuddly and non-horse scaring; blunts inevitable Tory attacks come next election; casts Tories as party of the selfish 10%.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    Just imagine being a survivor of the Black Death. The effect on the psyche must have been extreme. You get a glimpse of it in Piers Plowman but it is hard to imagine just how devastating it must have been.

    I find it pretty inconceivable how society continued to function to any degree during any such devastating plague. Even assuming a lot of people being left to their own devices and struggling through it, it is astounding.
  • ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Tracey Crouch's resignation is an utterly avoidable fuck-up by the government.

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    (And BTW, it's a shame iSam is not on for this; I had my disagreements with him, but he was bang-on about this at a time it was not generally on the radar.)

    I cannot understand it unless the legal advice was that a judicial challenge by the gambling industry was possible if the notice period was unreasonable
    Who defines reasonable? Can’t the government declare product X illegal tomorrow, I thought Parliament was sovereign? :p
    My first act as Directly Elected Dictator Prime Minister will be to ban pineapple on pizza.
    My first act would be to ban all screenings of The Last Jedi outside penitentiaries, where twice daily watching will be compulsory.
    "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi."
  • kle4 said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    I'm always curious in these sorts of over the top claims how people choose their time period. Why 700, not 800 or 600, or whatever? If it is chosen at random why did 800 seem too much and 600 not enough, if it is not at random, it would be nice if they explained why it was not worse than an event 701 years ago at least.

    Good use of potentially though, totally covered.
    The 70 was chosen as covering the post war period. The 700 was chosen by adding a nought on that.

    70 seems fair.
  • ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Just imagine being a survivor of the Black Death. The effect on the psyche must have been extreme. You get a glimpse of it in Piers Plowman but it is hard to imagine just how devastating it must have been.

    There's an entire chapter on it in Colin Platt's King Death, if memory serves, and if you are interested.
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
    NPxMP says she's a good egg, and from the BBC story...

    The 43-year-old MP has represented Chatham and Aylesford, in Kent, since 2010
    She was promoted to the front bench as sports minister in 2015
    She is known for her opposition to fox hunting and her love of football - she is a qualified FA coach
    Grammar school educated at Folkestone School for Girls, she went on to get a degree in law and politics from Hull University
    She had worked for various Tory MPs, including Michael Howard and David Davis before standing for election
    She had her first child in 2016 and is thought to have been the first Tory minister to take maternity leave
    What's her views on grammar schools, might be a deal breaker for me.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1058096223532601345
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    You were the only poster I could think of with either a Hindu or a Buddhist background. And also the only one I can think of who would try to troll TSE in that way...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Trump ramping it up :p
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    kle4 said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    I'm always curious in these sorts of over the top claims how people choose their time period. Why 700, not 800 or 600, or whatever? If it is chosen at random why did 800 seem too much and 600 not enough, if it is not at random, it would be nice if they explained why it was not worse than an event 701 years ago at least.

    Good use of potentially though, totally covered.
    The 70 was chosen as covering the post war period. The 700 was chosen by adding a nought on that.

    70 seems fair.
    I can imagine this might be the most damaging event for British foreign and trade policy since Suez.

    I'm reluctant to go further than that. I'm not sure it will be worse than the botched withdrawal from India, Cyprus or Palestine, for example.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    That's as mebbe., but is the God that you don't believe in, a Hindu god?
  • The Honours Committee’s wariness to date about awarding anything to Nigel Farage is looking well-judged today.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Off-topic:

    There is an excellent article in the latest LRB about Ambazonia, a territory in Cameroon that has a secessionist movement. It's an area of the world I know next to nothing about, and I fear the author is more than a little biased, but it's an excellent read on the way lingering colonialism is still affecting people to this day.

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n20/adewale-maja-pearce/prospects-for-ambazonia
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited November 2018

    McDonnell is very clever to support the tax cuts. Makes Labour seem cuddly and non-horse scaring; blunts inevitable Tory attacks come next election; casts Tories as party of the selfish 10%.

    The problem for McDonnell he has endorsed the rich receiving tax cuts while the majority of his party are outraged. It is all so comical

    And the conservative party are not for the many, or the few, but for everyone
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    You were the only poster I could think of with either a Hindu or a Buddhist background. And also the only one I can think of who would try to troll TSE in that way...
    I am a good atheist boy, you see...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    McDonnell is very clever to support the tax cuts. Makes Labour seem cuddly and non-horse scaring; blunts inevitable Tory attacks come next election; casts Tories as party of the selfish 10%.

    And the conservative party are not for the many, or the few, but for everyone
    I don't think that will catch on, it's too long for people to remember and it will just keep the Labour slogan in peoples' minds.
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    I'm always curious in these sorts of over the top claims how people choose their time period. Why 700, not 800 or 600, or whatever? If it is chosen at random why did 800 seem too much and 600 not enough, if it is not at random, it would be nice if they explained why it was not worse than an event 701 years ago at least.

    Good use of potentially though, totally covered.
    The 70 was chosen as covering the post war period. The 700 was chosen by adding a nought on that.

    70 seems fair.
    I can imagine this might be the most damaging event for British foreign and trade policy since Suez.

    I'm reluctant to go further than that. I'm not sure it will be worse than the botched withdrawal from India, Cyprus or Palestine, for example.
    The worst thing to happen to our country. Awful though the partition to India in particular was, it didn’t happen to our country.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
    NPxMP says she's a good egg, and from the BBC story...

    The 43-year-old MP has represented Chatham and Aylesford, in Kent, since 2010
    She was promoted to the front bench as sports minister in 2015
    She is known for her opposition to fox hunting and her love of football - she is a qualified FA coach
    Grammar school educated at Folkestone School for Girls, she went on to get a degree in law and politics from Hull University
    She had worked for various Tory MPs, including Michael Howard and David Davis before standing for election
    She had her first child in 2016 and is thought to have been the first Tory minister to take maternity leave
    What's her views on grammar schools, might be a deal breaker for me.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1058096223532601345
    Must say I too am genuinely impressed. She joins the very small band of Tories I would actually vote for (others: Soubry, Wollaston, and the man who features as your avatar).
  • I'm an atheist/agnostic in all but name.

    I've put my parents through a lot but this might be *it* to push them over the edge if I formally confirmed it.
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
    NPxMP says she's a good egg, and from the BBC story...

    The 43-year-old MP has represented Chatham and Aylesford, in Kent, since 2010
    She was promoted to the front bench as sports minister in 2015
    She is known for her opposition to fox hunting and her love of football - she is a qualified FA coach
    Grammar school educated at Folkestone School for Girls, she went on to get a degree in law and politics from Hull University
    She had worked for various Tory MPs, including Michael Howard and David Davis before standing for election
    She had her first child in 2016 and is thought to have been the first Tory minister to take maternity leave
    What's her views on grammar schools, might be a deal breaker for me.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1058096223532601345
    Must say I too am genuinely impressed. She joins the very small band of Tories I would actually vote for (others: Soubry, Wollaston, and the man who features as your avatar).
    Sound man.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711

    Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?

    Perhaps TMay was faced with an ultimatum by Esther McVey, who is strongly in favour of high FOBT stakes. She might have lost a Minister either way and decided that losing Tracey Crouch would cause her less damage.

    "Ms McVey is in a relationship with fellow Tory MP Philip Davies, who has been an outspoken defender of FOBT machines in the House of Commons, and has accepted thousands of pounds worth of hospitality from bookmakers"


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-lodges-protest-against-12510876
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    That's as mebbe., but is the God that you don't believe in, a Hindu god?
    Too many gods (and goddesses) in Hinduism!
  • The Honours Committee’s wariness to date about awarding anything to Nigel Farage is looking well-judged today.

    And calling form him to be installed as PM looks a touch impetuous in hindsight.

    https://twitter.com/MelanieLatest/status/1016252131832139776?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1016256499423866880&ref_url=https://www.indy100.com/article/melanie-phillips-nigel-farage-twitter-uk-prime-minister-brexit-theresa-may-leave-eu-8439161
  • RobD said:

    Good for Tracey Crouch. What an own goal by the government.

    I've put a few more pennies on her for next Tory leader.... over 800-1 on Betfair exchange...

    We Spurs fans stick together!
    She's awesome.

    Crouch for PM now.
    NPxMP says she's a good egg, and from the BBC story...

    The 43-year-old MP has represented Chatham and Aylesford, in Kent, since 2010
    She was promoted to the front bench as sports minister in 2015
    She is known for her opposition to fox hunting and her love of football - she is a qualified FA coach
    Grammar school educated at Folkestone School for Girls, she went on to get a degree in law and politics from Hull University
    She had worked for various Tory MPs, including Michael Howard and David Davis before standing for election
    She had her first child in 2016 and is thought to have been the first Tory minister to take maternity leave
    What's her views on grammar schools, might be a deal breaker for me.
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1058096223532601345
    Must say I too am genuinely impressed. She joins the very small band of Tories I would actually vote for (others: Soubry, Wollaston, and the man who features as your avatar).
    Sound man.
    I'm doing a Ken as Churchill, No Deal is Norway/Fall of France thread.
  • BudG said:

    Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?

    Perhaps TMay was faced with an ultimatum by Esther McVey, who is strongly in favour of high FOBT stakes. She might have lost a Minister either way and decided that losing Tracey Crouch would cause her less damage.

    "Ms McVey is in a relationship with fellow Tory MP Philip Davies, who has been an outspoken defender of FOBT machines in the House of Commons, and has accepted thousands of pounds worth of hospitality from bookmakers"


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-lodges-protest-against-12510876
    https://twitter.com/ByRobDavies/status/1058060286228393986
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    The Honours Committee’s wariness to date about awarding anything to Nigel Farage is looking well-judged today.

    And calling form him to be installed as PM looks a touch impetuous in hindsight.
    I don't think that many would have thought it looked a great idea even at the time!
  • Just imagine being a survivor of the Black Death. The effect on the psyche must have been extreme. You get a glimpse of it in Piers Plowman but it is hard to imagine just how devastating it must have been.

    A score of six or lower on two six-sided dice added together approximates the probability of dying from the Black Death. So back when my daughter was about seven I had her and her best friend sit down and make a list of all the people they knew - family, friends, teachers, etc - and then roll two dice for everyone on the list.

    I didn't take it to the next stage of pretending for the next week that everyone who was dead on the list was actually dead, but I think it made an impression.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,291
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    That's as mebbe., but is the God that you don't believe in, a Hindu god?
    I recall a story, perhaps urban myth, of a Hindu who frequented bars in NI, and was often quizzed at length over whether he was a Protestant Hindu or a Catholic Hindu.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    That's as mebbe., but is the God that you don't believe in, a Hindu god?
    I recall a story, perhaps urban myth, of a Hindu who frequented bars in NI, and was often quizzed at length over whether he was a Protestant Hindu or a Catholic Hindu.
    "The Brits partitioned my country too, you know!" :lol:
  • BudG said:

    Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?

    Perhaps TMay was faced with an ultimatum by Esther McVey, who is strongly in favour of high FOBT stakes. She might have lost a Minister either way and decided that losing Tracey Crouch would cause her less damage.

    "Ms McVey is in a relationship with fellow Tory MP Philip Davies, who has been an outspoken defender of FOBT machines in the House of Commons, and has accepted thousands of pounds worth of hospitality from bookmakers"


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-lodges-protest-against-12510876
    I could actually buy that as a theory. It is at least an explanation for something that is otherwise inexplicable.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    That's as mebbe., but is the God that you don't believe in, a Hindu god?
    Too many gods (and goddesses) in Hinduism!
    Plenty to not believe in then!
  • Theresa May's going to be feeling sicker than a cyclist with piles after that endorsement of Tracey Crouch by the Archbishop of Canterbury what with Mrs May being a vicar's daughter.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    The problem for McDonnell he has endorsed the rich receiving tax cuts while the majority of his party are outraged. It is all so comical

    And the conservative party are not for the many, or the few, but for everyone

    The tent can only get so big before it collapses under its own contradictions.

    No party can be "for everyone" except by going to the lowest common denominator or to meaningless platitudes and soundbites like "our precious union" and "hard working families".

    Are you for the bookmaker, the gambler and the gambling addict at the same time?

  • stodge said:


    The problem for McDonnell he has endorsed the rich receiving tax cuts while the majority of his party are outraged. It is all so comical

    And the conservative party are not for the many, or the few, but for everyone

    The tent can only get so big before it collapses under its own contradictions.

    No party can be "for everyone" except by going to the lowest common denominator or to meaningless platitudes and soundbites like "our precious union" and "hard working families".

    Are you for the bookmaker, the gambler and the gambling addict at the same time?

    Personally I would have banned them immediately and it looks like an own goal
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    kle4 said:

    The Honours Committee’s wariness to date about awarding anything to Nigel Farage is looking well-judged today.

    And calling form him to be installed as PM looks a touch impetuous in hindsight.
    I don't think that many would have thought it looked a great idea even at the time!
    He was never suitable as PM.

    President of the European Commission was more his line.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    The Honours Committee’s wariness to date about awarding anything to Nigel Farage is looking well-judged today.

    It was revealed recently that potential nominees are screened for financial impropriety and that agencies such as HMRC effectively have a veto.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Better hope the panic story provokes a sizable donation to shore things up. Are there no rich Tory opponents who cannot stand Corbyn who could help out?
  • stodge said:


    The problem for McDonnell he has endorsed the rich receiving tax cuts while the majority of his party are outraged. It is all so comical

    And the conservative party are not for the many, or the few, but for everyone

    The tent can only get so big before it collapses under its own contradictions.

    No party can be "for everyone" except by going to the lowest common denominator or to meaningless platitudes and soundbites like "our precious union" and "hard working families".

    Are you for the bookmaker, the gambler and the gambling addict at the same time?

    Judge politicians and parties by who they are against, not who they are for. The Conservatives are currently against the outward looking, the confident, the young and the smart workers and the hopeful in favour of the insular, the surly, the fearful and the retired. Most of these are sharp reversals of recent positions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited November 2018
    The only crumb of comfort I could offer is that when the Liberals laid off most of their staff after one disastrous election where they lost three-quarters of their MPs and another where they made a very slight recovery, at the following election they increased the number of seats they held by a fifth.

    The downside is that they were split three ways, the country was in crisis due to a vast budget deficit, protectionism was being brought in and the Conservatives won 473 seats.

    So I'm not sure that's encouraging.

    Surely however this is the final sign that Vince needs to go? Admittedly that will make him the third leader in the last four to have served less than three years.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,710

    Just imagine being a survivor of the Black Death. The effect on the psyche must have been extreme. You get a glimpse of it in Piers Plowman but it is hard to imagine just how devastating it must have been.

    A score of six or lower on two six-sided dice added together approximates the probability of dying from the Black Death. So back when my daughter was about seven I had her and her best friend sit down and make a list of all the people they knew - family, friends, teachers, etc - and then roll two dice for everyone on the list.

    I didn't take it to the next stage of pretending for the next week that everyone who was dead on the list was actually dead, but I think it made an impression.
    "Dad, can't we just play Monopoly instead?"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Scott_P said:
    I don't quite understand how someone cannot be fibbing here, since how could people so intimately involved not be aware of when something was planned for? But why fib?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    BudG said:

    Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?

    Perhaps TMay was faced with an ultimatum by Esther McVey, who is strongly in favour of high FOBT stakes. She might have lost a Minister either way and decided that losing Tracey Crouch would cause her less damage.

    "Ms McVey is in a relationship with fellow Tory MP Philip Davies, who has been an outspoken defender of FOBT machines in the House of Commons, and has accepted thousands of pounds worth of hospitality from bookmakers"


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-lodges-protest-against-12510876
    I could actually buy that as a theory. It is at least an explanation for something that is otherwise inexplicable.
    I think it more likely that May & Hammond have four tin ears between 'em. I'm sure both have admirable qualities, but neither are terribly good at this whole politician wossname.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given the anti Semitic sewer that Banks has been swimming in then I love karma.

    Lock him up indeed.

    Mr Eagles, I am surprised to hear you enthusiastically embracing a Hindu concept. Has the good Dr Prasannan hacked your account?
    Actually, unlike TSE, I self-identify as an atheist :)
    That's as mebbe., but is the God that you don't believe in, a Hindu god?
    I recall a story, perhaps urban myth, of a Hindu who frequented bars in NI, and was often quizzed at length over whether he was a Protestant Hindu or a Catholic Hindu.
    There's an old Billy Connolly gag about taking a friend up from London to the Scottish Cup final, an Old Firm game:

    'Aye, but are you a Protestant Jew, or a Catholic Jew?'
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    kle4 said:

    Better hope the panic story provokes a sizable donation to shore things up. Are there no rich Tory opponents who cannot stand Corbyn who could help out?
    I'm sure Remainers will, as one Eurocritter, put their hands in their pockets to save Uncle Vince.
  • John_M said:

    BudG said:

    Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?

    Perhaps TMay was faced with an ultimatum by Esther McVey, who is strongly in favour of high FOBT stakes. She might have lost a Minister either way and decided that losing Tracey Crouch would cause her less damage.

    "Ms McVey is in a relationship with fellow Tory MP Philip Davies, who has been an outspoken defender of FOBT machines in the House of Commons, and has accepted thousands of pounds worth of hospitality from bookmakers"


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-lodges-protest-against-12510876
    I could actually buy that as a theory. It is at least an explanation for something that is otherwise inexplicable.
    I think it more likely that May & Hammond have four tin ears between 'em. I'm sure both have admirable qualities, but neither are terribly good at this whole politician wossname.
    There has been a conscious decision taken to let Tracey Crouch resign over this.
  • stodge said:


    The problem for McDonnell he has endorsed the rich receiving tax cuts while the majority of his party are outraged. It is all so comical

    And the conservative party are not for the many, or the few, but for everyone

    The tent can only get so big before it collapses under its own contradictions.

    No party can be "for everyone" except by going to the lowest common denominator or to meaningless platitudes and soundbites like "our precious union" and "hard working families".

    Are you for the bookmaker, the gambler and the gambling addict at the same time?

    Judge politicians and parties by who they are against, not who they are for. The Conservatives are currently against the outward looking, the confident, the young and the smart workers and the hopeful in favour of the insular, the surly, the fearful and the retired. Most of these are sharp reversals of recent positions.
    Not all of the party by some distance
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Compared with how things were for the nascent Liberal Democrats in 1989 this is nothing.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Academic convention, buttressed by grammar and aesthetics, would suggest after.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Anorak said:

    If you think us remoaners on here are over the top:
    https://twitter.com/Jorvik4/status/1058040845977423877

    The Black Death was in the last 700 years right?
    Started in England - exact entry point disputed - in summer 1348. So 670 years ago.

    Edit - so another example of hyperbole. I doubt if 40% of the population will die and entire towns disappear.
    That was the date I had in mind but I wasn’t sure
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited November 2018
    That's even up for debate?! Why wouldn't it? Visually it looks strange for it to be after. Certainly it was not something anyone ever upbraided us for at Uni, and they were quite hot on most referencing.

    The one that gets me, and I'm sure there is a reason for it I just do not know, is putting two spaces after a full stop. I have to change so many reports which do that, my brain cannot accept it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Just imagine being a survivor of the Black Death. The effect on the psyche must have been extreme. You get a glimpse of it in Piers Plowman but it is hard to imagine just how devastating it must have been.

    It’s worth going to the Museum of London - they have a very effective short film on it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Dear oh dear Mr Eagles.

    It's as well for you you were at Cambridge rather than a University that cared about such things.
  • John_M said:

    BudG said:

    Considering all the no-marks that the government has pandered to, could they not have stretched a point for a passionate minister on this occasion?

    Perhaps TMay was faced with an ultimatum by Esther McVey, who is strongly in favour of high FOBT stakes. She might have lost a Minister either way and decided that losing Tracey Crouch would cause her less damage.

    "Ms McVey is in a relationship with fellow Tory MP Philip Davies, who has been an outspoken defender of FOBT machines in the House of Commons, and has accepted thousands of pounds worth of hospitality from bookmakers"


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-lodges-protest-against-12510876
    I could actually buy that as a theory. It is at least an explanation for something that is otherwise inexplicable.
    I think it more likely that May & Hammond have four tin ears between 'em. I'm sure both have admirable qualities, but neither are terribly good at this whole politician wossname.
    There has been a conscious decision taken to let Tracey Crouch resign over this.
    Seems like it. Politics hey
  • ydoethur said:

    Dear oh dear Mr Eagles.

    It's as well for you you were at Cambridge rather than a University that cared about such things.
    I love the Oxford comma.
  • kle4 said:

    That's even up for debate?! Why wouldn't it? Visually it looks strange for it to be after. Certainly it was not something anyone ever upbraided us for at Uni, and they were quite hot on most referencing.

    The one that gets me, and I'm sure there is a reason for it I just do not know, is putting two spaces after a full stop. I have to change so many reports which do that, my brain cannot accept it.
    Testify.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141

    A question: does anyone actually defend FOBTs?

    I do. I thought the legislation ill-thought out and based on dubious axioms and logic. I think gambling is neutral not bad, and there was no linkage established between the putative problem (gambling bad) and the legislation itself (limit FOBT stakes).

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Dear oh dear Mr Eagles.

    It's as well for you you were at Cambridge rather than a University that cared about such things.
    I love the Oxford comma.
    For myself I prefer an Irish redhead, but tastes differ.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear oh dear Mr Eagles.

    It's as well for you you were at Cambridge rather than a University that cared about such things.
    I love the Oxford comma.
    For myself I prefer an Irish redhead, but tastes differ.
    I married a quarter Irish redhead.
  • Apple, the world’s first company to be valued at $1 trillion, continues to grow at speed and has announced a double-digit increase in revenue.

    Slightly exceeding projected revenues, with $62.9bn, the tech giant is up roughly 20% over last year.

    The CEO, Tim Cook, and CFO, Luca Maestri, cited strong performances from services like iCloud, Apple Music, and the App Store, which reached an all time high of $10bn.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/01/apple-revenue-report-quarter-record-breaking?CMP=twt_gu
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear oh dear Mr Eagles.

    It's as well for you you were at Cambridge rather than a University that cared about such things.
    I love the Oxford comma.
    For myself I prefer an Irish redhead, but tastes differ.
    I married a quarter Irish redhead.
    Do you mean she was a quarter Irish and a redhead, or a quarter of her head was Irish and red?

    The latter has conjured a strange image...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dear oh dear Mr Eagles.

    It's as well for you you were at Cambridge rather than a University that cared about such things.
    I love the Oxford comma.
    For myself I prefer an Irish redhead, but tastes differ.
    I married a quarter Irish redhead.
    What colour is the rest of her hair?
  • Putting the reference before the comma, unless it is supporting a quote inside the full stop, looks very weird to me.

    But not as weird as hyperlinking the 't' only of "it said"...!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    Academic convention, buttressed by grammar and aesthetics, would suggest after.
    Not knowing anything about academic convention, and precious little more about grammar or aesthetics, I'd say it depends. My own style - as much as I have one - is to put small footnotes such as references before a full stop, and larger ones, such as explanations, afterwards.

    My thinking being that small footnotes such as references are almost part of the sentence, and longer ones, which are almost stand-alone pieces of text that can be read on their own are not part of the footnoted sentence.

    But this is complicated by what happens when references occur in the middle (1) of the sentence, rather than the end (2).

    Then again, I'm probably a heretic. ;)

    (1) This is roughly two-thirds of the way through the sentence.
    (2) This is the end of the sentence, aside from an ascii 02E.
  • Academic convention, buttressed by grammar and aesthetics, would suggest after.
    Wikipedians insist on after.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    kle4 said:

    That's even up for debate?! Why wouldn't it? Visually it looks strange for it to be after. Certainly it was not something anyone ever upbraided us for at Uni, and they were quite hot on most referencing.

    The one that gets me, and I'm sure there is a reason for it I just do not know, is putting two spaces after a full stop. I have to change so many reports which do that, my brain cannot accept it.
    I always put two spaces after a full stop. It's just a habit, probably first learned by two finger typing on a typewriter. It just looks better with a bit of extra space between sentences.
This discussion has been closed.