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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sales tacks. What to do with the high street holes caused by s

SystemSystem Posts: 12,173
edited October 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sales tacks. What to do with the high street holes caused by shop closures

Debenhams, House of Fraser, Homebase and more – this is the grim story of the UK high street so far this yearhttps://t.co/UhZU4a9v0E

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • E pluribus unum.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    Excellent article. Great question.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,700
    edited October 2018
    Great piece.

    I will say a lot of those places with closures are what I’d call shitholes.

    Coincidence? I think not.
  • I wasted far too much time on that quiz.

    Didn’t even consider places like Barnsley would be in the top 100.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    It's a bit of large topic, but perhaps the internet (and general improvements in technology, communications, and transport infrastructure) means that the huge importance of cities, a factor pretty much throughout recorded history, is, if not ending, being critically diminished.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Good article. Could only manage 58 in that quiz - 82 is going some.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    I wasted far too much time on that quiz.

    Didn’t even consider places like Barnsley would be in the top 100.

    How did you manage to waste more than 12 minutes?
  • I wasted far too much time on that quiz.

    Didn’t even consider places like Barnsley would be in the top 100.

    How did you manage to waste more than 12 minutes?
    Quite easily.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    edited October 2018
    A lot of the places most effective are what I could call 'almost' places.ie small towns which are close to bigger cities. For example Fareham, caught betwen Portsmouth and Southampton, or Slough caught between Reading and London.

    Not big enough to have full scale shopping centres themselves, but still plenty of people live there.

    These places aren't going to get people going there unless they are local themselves, but a lot of local people will go to the bigger places for shopping.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621

    It's a bit of large topic, but perhaps the internet (and general improvements in technology, communications, and transport infrastructure) means that the huge importance of cities, a factor pretty much throughout recorded history, is, if not ending, being critically diminished.

    I think the high street problem is more with towns than cities. Cities are magnets with scale effects. Towns are being hollowed out. I don't think converting shops to residences helps if people don't want to live there because there is no work and the place is a shithole.

    I suspect the future of the high street (if there is one) is with goods and services that can't easily be bought on-line - nailbars, hairdressers, chiropodists, dentists, doctors, restaurants, coffee shops, childcare, social care. These are all fairly labour intensive so they provide employment as well as services.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    It's hard enough to convince people to take a bus to their own town centre rather than drive. If they have to travel to the Big City to go shopping they're even less likely to use public transport to do so.

    The continuing freeze in fuel duty is consequently politically significant in this context.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Me, supermarkets delivering stuff changes the game too.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Morning all :)

    To be fair, not all High Streets are the same. East Ham High Street remains a dynamic place with businesses opening all the time. I've no doubt the Poundworld Plus site (which was formerly Peacocks) will be converted into something else in time.

    We have a lot of bookmakers (the change in FOBT rules next year might impact) and a growing number of eateries - mainly coffee shops - and a number of shops tailored to specific national groups (we have Romanian shops and a café due to open for Africans from the former Portuguese colonies).

    Part of the problem may be the rents landlords are charging and the constant upward revisions. Organisations using retail as Investment Properties are obviously wanting a high rental yield but the fact is retail space is prohibitively expensive in many areas. As for conversion to residential, there are plenty of flats above shops and most plans I see for town centre regenerations (and especially a lot of projects at railway stations) involve a mix of commercial, retail and residential as the long segregation of activities ends and a more diffuse use of space emerges.

    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    edited October 2018
    Fpt.

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Looks like the fourth Reich is going to have to wait only 1 in 3 german tanks is working

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/nur-jeder-dritte-neue-panzer-der-bundeswehr-ist-einsatzbereit-15866260.html

    I would say that's normal for any complex bit of military kit. How many of its 450 Challenger IIs do you think the British Army has available for ops right now? Hint: it's nowhere near 150.
    I'm sure that's right. I remember we had to strip every tank in Germany to make sure that those we sent to the Gulf could actually move. Spare parts seem to be the first saving made which is of course utterly bizarre.

    How many of our fighters are typically operational?
    It's said that in WW2 the Germans handicapped their armour by constantly trying to improve it and having numerous different models, sophisticated for their time, with incompatible spare parts which kept breaking down. The Soviets had a small number of not very distinguished types which they produced in huge numbers, and in battlefield conditions that worked better than having the latest gizmos.
    Damn, missed a tank convo.

    Not really, as has been pointed out the T34 & variants was the tank design triumph of WWII (the Panther was Germany's thoroughbred response), not to mention later heavy tank designs. German armour was over engineered, but they were pretty good at utilising obsolete & even captured chassis in the tank destroyer & sp gun roles which was vital for the defensive retreats that they perforce had to fight. The Pzkpfw IV, the backbone of the Panzerarmees right till the end, was kept more-or-less competitive by engineering innovation.

    But yes, in the end it was a numbers game East and West.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Interesting article, thank you.

    If Labour are campaigning in these places, what are their proposed remedies. Genuinely curious.

    My local town in Cumbria is probably an example of what you are writing about. It does not have a buzzy high street but it does have a fair selection of shops: Tesco, Boots, newsagent, local store selling everything from school uniforms to pillow cases etc, diy stores, post office, cafe, pubs, restaurant, butcher, baker etc and one very good independent clothes shop, a bit of a destination place for those who know about it. That last one works because the owners have chosen very wisely in what they sell - top class stylish clothes not easy to get elsewhere, at a good price and, crucially, the experience is pleasant : a proper chat, a coffee, somewhere to sit down, proper old-fashioned service.

    This compares very favourably with shops in London where often there is little attempt made to make the experience enjoyable. I do think that, whatever sort of shop you are, but especially for discretionary spending, the experience needs to be a big part of it not just simply the purchase. And some shops will be only for experiences eg beauty shops, hairdressers etc.

    The Houses of Fraser, Debenhams etc seem to me to fall between two stools: not particularly special and not much better than a covered market. Shopping there is depressing and soul destroying.

    But there are empty shops too and they stay empty for a long time. This puzzles me. Why? Surely it would be better for the landlord to have some rent rather than none at all.

    One final point: there was a thriving local network centre with wi-fi, pop up office, Greek cafe, exercise classes etc attached to the local school. For reasons of local politics too boring to go into here, it has closed though the locals are trying to get it reinstated. It is the council which is proving difficult and unhelpful. The difference between a town finding worthwhile alternatives to the traditional high street and dying may well be the quality and oomph of local politicians.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Miss Cyclefree, your last paragraph reminds me of Polish and Russian leaders thinking cavalry was the way to go in WWII.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    To be fair, not all High Streets are the same. East Ham High Street remains a dynamic place with businesses opening all the time. I've no doubt the Poundworld Plus site (which was formerly Peacocks) will be converted into something else in time.

    London (and other 'major') cities are a different kettle of fish though. Public transport, and people no having cars make it a lot more localised. If you don't live in a major city, car is king.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Shops are rubbish. Sainsbury's has lost or sold half its trolleys so shoppers are forced to prowl the car park before exploring the half-empty shelves. Any agreement between marked and charged prices is purely coincidental. Buying a Dyson from Currys last week involved four different staff, duplicate data entry, staff disappearing to fetch the goods from storage -- and that is before the challenge of the kaput card reader. Retail bosses need to get off the golf course, away from the spreadsheets and into their own shops to see and fix obvious flaws that drive customers away and online.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Although I am impressed that AM didn't drag Brexit into this article...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Slackbladder, plans are afoot to increase the cost of motoring in Leeds. It was a few months ago I saw it on local news, but I think it amounts to some sort of congestion tax or suchlike. Brilliantly, it applies to buses. Even better, as I've said many times, Leeds has no tram system (despite numerous false starts wasting millions of pounds).
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    stodge said:



    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    edited October 2018
    QUIZ SPOILERS





    Low 60s, only missed Belfast on the first line as I over-thought it. Most were 'oh, there, yeah, should have worked along the train line better' (which is roughly how I approached it - picked trainlines and mentally worked along the tracks).

    The only one I'd genuinely never head of was Rayleigh.
  • A good handful I've mentally packaged as 'London'
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Shops are rubbish. Sainsbury's has lost or sold half its trolleys so shoppers are forced to prowl the car park before exploring the half-empty shelves. Any agreement between marked and charged prices is purely coincidental. Buying a Dyson from Currys last week involved four different staff, duplicate data entry, staff disappearing to fetch the goods from storage -- and that is before the challenge of the kaput card reader. Retail bosses need to get off the golf course, away from the spreadsheets and into their own shops to see and fix obvious flaws that drive customers away and online.

    Agree strongly with this. The shops and cafes/restaurants I use regularly are ones with good staff who know what they are doing.

    Retail and hospitality are often seen as low skilled jobs. But, actually, being able to read people, to treat them well, to provide a good experience, to make them feel better for having visited you, to make them want to come again is harder than it looks. A lot of retailers have forgotten this and this may be one reason why they do not do well.

    Yesterday, for instance, I was in a cafe I’ve never been in before havig some time to kill. At lunchtime ( though the place was not busy), the supervisor decided to train one of the staff. Mistake no. 1. This should have been done before it opened not at what was likely to be a busier time. I asked for a coffee. Three times. The second time of asking should have alerted the supervisor that, maybe, just maybe, she should have stopped showing the junior how to write down a typical order and instead told her to write down this order. And fulfill it too.

    The cost was silly. The experience woeful. I won’t be going there again. It was a cafe. Producing a bloody cup of coffee should not have sent it into a tailspin. A lot of businesses neglect the absolute basics.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    stodge said:



    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
    Yes - and that is how a lot of Continental town and cities are. We could maybe learn something from them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,506
    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I've come to the conclusion that high mid term turnout is bad for the Dems.

    No evidence, just gut feel.

    People opposed to the current president vote in mid terms.

    High turnout means either lots more of people opposed to the president are voting or that people who support the president are voting.
  • Some people shop where they work.

    Mixing offices in particular with shops provides a good source of shoppers for the shops.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    FPT:

    ydoethur said:

    October
    Kirknewton to Uddingston via Shotts
    Kilwinning to Largs
    Ardrossan South Beach to Harbour
    Troon to Kilmarnock
    Port Glasgow to Gourock
    Glasgow Central to Neilston
    Glasgow Central to Paisley Canal
    Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride
    Glasgow Central to Cambuslang (via Argyle Street)
    Cambuslang to Larkhall
    Polmont to Glasgow Queen St via Cumbernauld
    Greenfaulds to Hamilton Central via Whifflet
    Drem to North Berwick
    Carstairs East junction to Carstairs
    Mount Florida to Kings Park
    Bellshill to Motherwell
    Shieldmuir to Carluke via Wishaw
    Carluke to Lanark
    Rutherglen to Whifflet via Carmyle
    Glasgow Central to Newton via Maxwell Park
    Holytown to Wishaw
    Westerton to Milngavie
    Dalreoch to Helensburgh Central
    Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland via Maryhill
    Bellgrove to Springburn
    Linlithgow to Dalmeny
    Llangennech to Briton Ferry Up Fast Loop Junction (Swansea District Line)

    Somebody needs to stay in more...
    Well the clocks have gone back, meaning I will probably have to finish off Scotland in the spring and summer :)
    Dear me Sunil. Maybe you don't like the SNP but threatening to destroy all of Scotland once the weather improves seems excessive!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    If Debenhams leaves Gloucester, the city centre will collapse. It's struggling as it is given Cheltenham and Bristol both have a much wider range of shops and much better transport links.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Town centres will either become places to meet, full of restaurants, cafes and coffee shops with the odd speciality store on the side, or the shops will disappear altogether and be replaced by residential - just as has happened in most villages over the past thirty years.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.

    The problem with a town like Haslemere is that local property prices have restricted the social and economic demographic of who can live there. Consequently, changing the infrastructural dynamic to resemble an "Islington" may not work because the kind of people who would welcome an "Islington" style working and living environment simply don't exist in Haslemere or certainly not to the numbers required.

    The planning and infrastructure provision needs to adapt to the demographic of the area. I do agree simply taking out more Green Belt land and building more Estates of three and four bedroom houses is good news only for the property developers and house builders. We need to think differently about how people can live, work, relax and interact in ways that are sustainable (and not just in the "green" sense of that word).

    Every time I see the housing estates of the 1930s and later I'm reminded of the lines from Eleanor Rigby - "All the lonely people, where do they all come from? All the lonely people, where do they all belong?" I think pre and post-war housing has generated a culture of loneliness (not helped by modern technology).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    edited October 2018

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    It's a strange situation because my village in the Welsh valleys seems to be undergoing a revival. We've had two boutique shops open in the past few years, a local grocery has opened (bucking the threat of the large Tescos half a mile away) and we even have a Kurdish barbers.

    It goes to show that it's very much a local thing. Maybe we are just lucky.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,506
    Fenster said:

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    It's a strange situation because my village in the Welsh valleys seems to be undergoing a revival. We've had two boutique shops open in the past few years, a local grocery has opened (bucking the threat of the large Tescos half a mile away) and we even have a Kurdish barbers.

    It goes to show that it's very much a local thing. Maybe we are just lucky.
    Are you on a tourist trail, or near a national park hotspot?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Heard Boohoo were selling a dress for a fiver on the radio this morning !
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    That reminds me of the financial adviser who had come up with a clever new way of making money, and showed it in a PowerPoint to possible investors. Unfortunately for her chances of getting their money, although possibly not from the point of view of legal complications, she had forgotten to delete one rather important note: 'Hypothetical figures used throughout, as real ones do not work.'
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    Veering off-topic but the "amp." in the URL is another step in Google's dominance of the web.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    Veering off-topic but the "amp." in the URL is another step in Google's dominance of the web.
    Where's Tapestry when you need him to explain this is all a vast international conspiracy?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Pulpstar said:

    Heard Boohoo were selling a dress for a fiver on the radio this morning !

    Perhaps they were named that as they make High St retailers cry into their cornflakes.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    edited October 2018

    stodge said:



    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
    Barnes is like that too. It has a population of 10,000. It has 20 restaurants including Rick Stein and Riva. A lot of coffee shops including Gails. Six good thriving pubs. One of them (Bulls Head) has jazz every night. Coach and Horses has a monthly philosophy club which about 70 people attend. Cinema and theatre. Barnes Fair, Barnes food fair, Barnes Xmas festival, weekly farmers market, specialist cheese shop, wine shop, fish shop, veg shop. A newly opened M&S food market. Barnes music society, Barnes literary society, Barnes history society etc etc. The river and bridges. The common. The pond. No tube.

    [This ad was sponsored by Barnesian]

    EDIT: Question - why? Answer - wealthy well-educated people who cooperate to make it work.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    PS – If you think you know Britain well, try this quiz. I got 82.

    Impressive - I did half as well - couldn't get number 6 - Sheffield, allegedly.

    I recently saw an example of 'the dying High Street' in Gateshead - the High Street is a boarded up dilapidated dump - and right next to it, a popular brand new shopping centre.

    Taking the longer perspective - is any of this really new? Where I used to live in Newcastle on the quayside was the centre of commercial and retail life until Stephenson's High Level Bridge bypassed it in 1850 and the centre of commerce moved up the hill - the area fell to dereliction and was razed by a great fire later that decade, The Victorians built handsome office buildings to support the trade down the Tyne and the area flourished and prospered for nigh on a century. When the trade went, so did the offices and again the area fell to disuse and disrepair. Then the "gentrification" of the 1980s and 1990s saw the offices converted to retail (ground) and residential (upper floors) use and once more the quayside prospers.

    I know in the long term we're all dead - and seeing your once flourishing High Street a down at heels dump is no doubt dispiriting - but I'm not sure there's much the government - or anyone - can do about it.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Heard Boohoo were selling a dress for a fiver on the radio this morning !

    Perhaps they were named that as they make High St retailers cry into their cornflakes.
    Those sweatshops must be pretty grim.
  • ydoethur said:

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    That reminds me of the financial adviser who had come up with a clever new way of making money, and showed it in a PowerPoint to possible investors. Unfortunately for her chances of getting their money, although possibly not from the point of view of legal complications, she had forgotten to delete one rather important note: 'Hypothetical figures used throughout, as real ones do not work.'
    Imagine paying £55 million for a flat, then having to exit onto the junction of Oxford Street and Tottenham Court Road every day 😳. Still it's handy for Burger King and Primark I guess!
  • FPT:
    ydoethur said:

    October
    Kirknewton to Uddingston via Shotts
    Kilwinning to Largs
    Ardrossan South Beach to Harbour
    Troon to Kilmarnock
    Port Glasgow to Gourock
    Glasgow Central to Neilston
    Glasgow Central to Paisley Canal
    Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride
    Glasgow Central to Cambuslang (via Argyle Street)
    Cambuslang to Larkhall
    Polmont to Glasgow Queen St via Cumbernauld
    Greenfaulds to Hamilton Central via Whifflet
    Drem to North Berwick
    Carstairs East junction to Carstairs
    Mount Florida to Kings Park
    Bellshill to Motherwell
    Shieldmuir to Carluke via Wishaw
    Carluke to Lanark
    Rutherglen to Whifflet via Carmyle
    Glasgow Central to Newton via Maxwell Park
    Holytown to Wishaw
    Westerton to Milngavie
    Dalreoch to Helensburgh Central
    Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland via Maryhill
    Bellgrove to Springburn
    Linlithgow to Dalmeny
    Llangennech to Briton Ferry Up Fast Loop Junction (Swansea District Line)

    Somebody needs to stay in more...
    Well the clocks have gone back, meaning I will probably have to finish off ScotRail in the spring and summer :)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    “The wealthy are far more worried about the risk of a Corbyn-led government than even the hardest of Brexits.”
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    PS – If you think you know Britain well, try this quiz. I got 82.

    Impressive - I did half as well - couldn't get number 6 - Sheffield, allegedly.

    I recently saw an example of 'the dying High Street' in Gateshead - the High Street is a boarded up dilapidated dump - and right next to it, a popular brand new shopping centre.

    Taking the longer perspective - is any of this really new? Where I used to live in Newcastle on the quayside was the centre of commercial and retail life until Stephenson's High Level Bridge bypassed it in 1850 and the centre of commerce moved up the hill - the area fell to dereliction and was razed by a great fire later that decade, The Victorians built handsome office buildings to support the trade down the Tyne and the area flourished and prospered for nigh on a century. When the trade went, so did the offices and again the area fell to disuse and disrepair. Then the "gentrification" of the 1980s and 1990s saw the offices converted to retail (ground) and residential (upper floors) use and once more the quayside prospers.

    I know in the long term we're all dead - and seeing your once flourishing High Street a down at heels dump is no doubt dispiriting - but I'm not sure there's much the government - or anyone - can do about it.

    Odd, I forgot Sheffield as well, even though I used to visit it regularly. The top half is easy enough but the bottom contains some real surprises, and many that are easily overlooked like Worthing, Rayleigh, Hemel Hempstead etc. And many historic towns that aren't there like Lancaster, Truro, Carlisle, Berwick etc.
  • Fenster said:

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    It's a strange situation because my village in the Welsh valleys seems to be undergoing a revival. We've had two boutique shops open in the past few years, a local grocery has opened (bucking the threat of the large Tescos half a mile away) and we even have a Kurdish barbers.

    It goes to show that it's very much a local thing. Maybe we are just lucky.
    Are you on a tourist trail, or near a national park hotspot?
    More importantly, near which train station? :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    stodge said:



    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
    Banks and estate agents' days are numbered as well, of course.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,898
    edited October 2018
    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    ydoethur said:

    October
    Kirknewton to Uddingston via Shotts
    Kilwinning to Largs
    Ardrossan South Beach to Harbour
    Troon to Kilmarnock
    Port Glasgow to Gourock
    Glasgow Central to Neilston
    Glasgow Central to Paisley Canal
    Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride
    Glasgow Central to Cambuslang (via Argyle Street)
    Cambuslang to Larkhall
    Polmont to Glasgow Queen St via Cumbernauld
    Greenfaulds to Hamilton Central via Whifflet
    Drem to North Berwick
    Carstairs East junction to Carstairs
    Mount Florida to Kings Park
    Bellshill to Motherwell
    Shieldmuir to Carluke via Wishaw
    Carluke to Lanark
    Rutherglen to Whifflet via Carmyle
    Glasgow Central to Newton via Maxwell Park
    Holytown to Wishaw
    Westerton to Milngavie
    Dalreoch to Helensburgh Central
    Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland via Maryhill
    Bellgrove to Springburn
    Linlithgow to Dalmeny
    Llangennech to Briton Ferry Up Fast Loop Junction (Swansea District Line)

    Somebody needs to stay in more...
    Well the clocks have gone back, meaning I will probably have to finish off Scotland in the spring and summer :)
    Dear me Sunil. Maybe you don't like the SNP but threatening to destroy all of Scotland once the weather improves seems excessive!
    ooops - reposted my original post for no reason!

    Anyway, I've calculated I just need 12 return journeys to capture - on film! - the main national rail network routes I need.

    Glasgow to Oban/Mallaig/Alloa/Stranraer
    Leuchars to Dundee
    Cardenden loop
    Edinburgh to Perth to Dundee
    Ladybank to Perth
    Perth/Dundee to Inverness
    Inverness to Kyle/Wick
  • One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    The Centre Point flats were built in the 1960s but seem to have spent most of their life unoccupied and mired in controversy.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/hot-air-over-an-office-block-1074385.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Point

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Alistair said:

    I've come to the conclusion that high mid term turnout is bad for the Dems.

    No evidence, just gut feel.

    People opposed to the current president vote in mid terms.

    High turnout means either lots more of people opposed to the president are voting or that people who support the president are voting.

    In the UK, high turnout by-elections are often bad for the incumbent Government. In 1993, the Conservatives were trounced at Newbury on a 71% turnout and also (thank you Wikipedia) look at the 1923 Tiverton and 1926 Darlington by-elections.

    It's not universally true of course and someone will find an exception. As you say, pro-Government or pro-President supporters may be as motivated to vote as those in opposition.

    Have a look at the Brighouse & Spenborough by-elections of both 1950 and 1960 to see what turnout can be like and what it can mean.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    ydoethur said:

    October
    Kirknewton to Uddingston via Shotts
    Kilwinning to Largs
    Ardrossan South Beach to Harbour
    Troon to Kilmarnock
    Port Glasgow to Gourock
    Glasgow Central to Neilston
    Glasgow Central to Paisley Canal
    Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride
    Glasgow Central to Cambuslang (via Argyle Street)
    Cambuslang to Larkhall
    Polmont to Glasgow Queen St via Cumbernauld
    Greenfaulds to Hamilton Central via Whifflet
    Drem to North Berwick
    Carstairs East junction to Carstairs
    Mount Florida to Kings Park
    Bellshill to Motherwell
    Shieldmuir to Carluke via Wishaw
    Carluke to Lanark
    Rutherglen to Whifflet via Carmyle
    Glasgow Central to Newton via Maxwell Park
    Holytown to Wishaw
    Westerton to Milngavie
    Dalreoch to Helensburgh Central
    Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland via Maryhill
    Bellgrove to Springburn
    Linlithgow to Dalmeny
    Llangennech to Briton Ferry Up Fast Loop Junction (Swansea District Line)

    Somebody needs to stay in more...
    Well the clocks have gone back, meaning I will probably have to finish off Scotland in the spring and summer :)
    Dear me Sunil. Maybe you don't like the SNP but threatening to destroy all of Scotland once the weather improves seems excessive!
    ooops - reposted my original post for no reason!

    Anyway, I've calculated I just need 12 return journeys to capture - on film! - the main national rail network routes I need.

    Glasgow to Oban/Mallaig/Alloa/Stranraer
    Leuchars to Dundee
    Cardenden loop
    Edinburgh to Perth to Dundee
    Ladybank to Perth
    Perth/Dundee to Inverness
    Inverness to Kyle/Wick
    I'd say at least six, probably seven of those are full day trips.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    ydoethur said:

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    That reminds me of the financial adviser who had come up with a clever new way of making money, and showed it in a PowerPoint to possible investors. Unfortunately for her chances of getting their money, although possibly not from the point of view of legal complications, she had forgotten to delete one rather important note: 'Hypothetical figures used throughout, as real ones do not work.'
    Imagine paying £55 million for a flat, then having to exit onto the junction of Oxford Street and Tottenham Court Road every day 😳. Still it's handy for Burger King and Primark I guess!
    It is getting to the price range even Prem footballers will have to think about it. And if you want to live in a nice bit of London, I'm sure there are some nice houses up near @Barnes for way less/sq metre than these monstrosities.
    People will probably never sell, unless.... they have to - but if you've got £20 million to spend on a flat you probably will never need to. It creates a very odd market indeed.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited October 2018


    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184

    Veering off-topic but the "amp." in the URL is another step in Google's dominance of the web.


    From Digital Trends

    "You’ll soon be able to get Google AMP quality without that pesky AMP URL

    Google amp removing url
    Every good thing seems to come with a price, and when it came to Google’s fast-loading webpages, that price was seeing an Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP)-specific URL instead of a normal web address. But luckily, it looks like Google’s no longer charging us with those URLs.

    This week, Malte Ubl, the tech lead for the AMP Project, announced that a new version of the AMP Cache would make its debut. In short, the team is changing how AMP works in Google Search and other platforms, and will thereby allow linked pages to “appear under publishers’ URLs instead of the google.com/amp URL space.” Best of all, this change won’t have any effect on the speed or privacy that comes along with AMP Cache serving.

    “When we first launched AMP in Google Search we made a big trade-off: To achieve the user experience that users were telling us that they wanted, instant loading, we needed to start loading the page before the user clicked.” Malte explained in a blog post. He continued, however, “Privacy reasons make it basically impossible to load the page from the publisher’s server … Instead, AMP pages are loaded from the Google AMP Cache but with that behavior the URLs changed to include the google.com/amp/ URL prefix.”

    But now, Google is looking into a new version of the AMP Cache that is predicated upon the World Wide Web Consortium’s Web Packing standard, which should make the AMP addresses look like, well … any other web address. Thus far, Google’s tests have proven satisfactory, and Malte wrote, “The next steps are moving towards fully implementing the new web standard in web browsers and in the Google AMP Cache.” The goal is for Web Packaging to become “available in as many browsers as possible,” he noted. “In particular, we intend to extend existing work on WebKit to include the implementation of Web Packaging and the Google Chrome team’s implementation is getting started.”

    I hope that's clear now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:



    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
    Barnes is like that too. It has a population of 10,000. It has 20 restaurants including Rick Stein and Riva. A lot of coffee shops including Gails. Six good thriving pubs. One of them (Bulls Head) has jazz every night. Coach and Horses has a monthly philosophy club which about 70 people attend. Cinema and theatre. Barnes Fair, Barnes food fair, Barnes Xmas festival, weekly farmers market, specialist cheese shop, wine shop, fish shop, veg shop. A newly opened M&S food market. Barnes music society, Barnes literary society, Barnes history society etc etc. The river and bridges. The common. The pond. No tube.

    [This ad was sponsored by Barnesian]

    EDIT: Question - why? Answer - wealthy well-educated people who cooperate to make it work.
    Sounds very pleasent - of course your property is near the top in terms of price/sq metre for the UK as a whole (Excluding these Oxford Road monstrosities !) so you'd hope for excellent amenities nearby.
    I noted in my recent trip to Normandy there were far more small shops of the sort you describe above, the house prices there wouldn't be so far from the French average.
    I'm not sure what my point is, just its a little sad that what should be a pleasent level of pleasent commercial nearby stock shouldn't just be near the top of the UK market.
    It doesn't appear to be abroad.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    Quiz

    If you consider parliamentary constituencies, the towns and cities listed are one or more constituencies worth.

    Where a constituency containes a town plus its hinterland, then the town is likely to be too small for the list.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Really good piece once again Alastair. In many respects the most important provision in the budget for the High Street was the reduction in rates liability for independent shops below a certain size. That will not help the big chains but it does improve the chances of the High Street having tenants.

    A recent analysis in Dundee showed that coffee shops were up 33% over the last year. This seems to be increasingly the default for empty units although I personally struggle to see how these will all survive. Again the likes of Starbucks, Costa and Cafe Nero won't benefit but many of the independents will.

    I have far too much liking for coffee and cake for my own good but for most town centres need to find a reason for people to come into town in the first place. Without the department stores that is more of a challenge.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    One thing I can't understand is rental prices. If shops and the like are empty, then landlords are making nothing. So why aren't rental prices falling accordingly?

    Perhaps a similar mindset?

    https://twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1057590548029149184
    That reminds me of the financial adviser who had come up with a clever new way of making money, and showed it in a PowerPoint to possible investors. Unfortunately for her chances of getting their money, although possibly not from the point of view of legal complications, she had forgotten to delete one rather important note: 'Hypothetical figures used throughout, as real ones do not work.'
    Imagine paying £55 million for a flat, then having to exit onto the junction of Oxford Street and Tottenham Court Road every day 😳. Still it's handy for Burger King and Primark I guess!
    It is getting to the price range even Prem footballers will have to think about it. And if you want to live in a nice bit of London, I'm sure there are some nice houses up near @Barnes for way less/sq metre than these monstrosities.
    People will probably never sell, unless.... they have to - but if you've got £20 million to spend on a flat you probably will never need to. It creates a very odd market indeed.
    A tax on unoccupied dwellings would encourage a few sales. It's the sort of policy potential buyers of the flats will be thinking about when they decide to wait to see if Corbyn becomes PM.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Fenster said:

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    It's a strange situation because my village in the Welsh valleys seems to be undergoing a revival. We've had two boutique shops open in the past few years, a local grocery has opened (bucking the threat of the large Tescos half a mile away) and we even have a Kurdish barbers.

    It goes to show that it's very much a local thing. Maybe we are just lucky.
    Are you on a tourist trail, or near a national park hotspot?
    No, I'm in a pit village (Ystrad Mynach). We are in a nice spot because we are at the bottom of the valley and only 14 miles by train directly to the centre of Cardiff. I think it's beautiful here; friendly, pretty, communal, sporty, great junior schools, low unemployment and very safe. But whenever I see stats the Caerphilly borough is deemed one of the UK's shitholes. I travel all around the UK and I wouldn't swap the valleys for anywhere. It's not wealthy or sophisticated here but I like it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Isn't it all about per capita wealth of the surrounding area? I bet the correlation is pretty high. High wealth level = great High Street, lower wealth level = gopping High Street.
  • TOPPING said:

    Isn't it all about per capita wealth of the surrounding area? I bet the correlation is pretty high. High wealth level = great High Street, lower wealth level = gopping High Street.

    I live in Maidenhead which is quite a prosperous town but the local shopping centre has just gone into receivership. I think part of the issue is scale. I might get a few bits and bobs from Maidenhead town centre but for bigger purchases or clothes shopping I would go to High Wycombe or Reading, which have much better shops.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Isn't it all about per capita wealth of the surrounding area? I bet the correlation is pretty high. High wealth level = great High Street, lower wealth level = gopping High Street.

    I live in Maidenhead which is quite a prosperous town but the local shopping centre has just gone into receivership. I think part of the issue is scale. I might get a few bits and bobs from Maidenhead town centre but for bigger purchases or clothes shopping I would go to High Wycombe or Reading, which have much better shops.
    Interesting - but...are High Wycombe and Reading "wealthier" (who knows?!) than Maidenhead?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,299
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    To be fair, not all High Streets are the same. East Ham High Street remains a dynamic place with businesses opening all the time. I've no doubt the Poundworld Plus site (which was formerly Peacocks) will be converted into something else in time.

    We have a lot of bookmakers (the change in FOBT rules next year might impact) and a growing number of eateries - mainly coffee shops - and a number of shops tailored to specific national groups (we have Romanian shops and a café due to open for Africans from the former Portuguese colonies).

    Part of the problem may be the rents landlords are charging and the constant upward revisions. Organisations using retail as Investment Properties are obviously wanting a high rental yield but the fact is retail space is prohibitively expensive in many areas. As for conversion to residential, there are plenty of flats above shops and most plans I see for town centre regenerations (and especially a lot of projects at railway stations) involve a mix of commercial, retail and residential as the long segregation of activities ends and a more diffuse use of space emerges.

    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Time perhaps for Jane Jacobs to become fashionable again ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,299
    Fenster said:

    Fenster said:

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    It's a strange situation because my village in the Welsh valleys seems to be undergoing a revival. We've had two boutique shops open in the past few years, a local grocery has opened (bucking the threat of the large Tescos half a mile away) and we even have a Kurdish barbers.

    It goes to show that it's very much a local thing. Maybe we are just lucky.
    Are you on a tourist trail, or near a national park hotspot?
    No, I'm in a pit village (Ystrad Mynach). We are in a nice spot because we are at the bottom of the valley and only 14 miles by train directly to the centre of Cardiff. I think it's beautiful here; friendly, pretty, communal, sporty, great junior schools, low unemployment and very safe. But whenever I see stats the Caerphilly borough is deemed one of the UK's shitholes. I travel all around the UK and I wouldn't swap the valleys for anywhere. It's not wealthy or sophisticated here but I like it.
    I think this is perhaps the key - making towns nice places to live needn't cost a fortune (although clearly if you're starting with somewhere that really is a bit of a shithole - which most of the places on the header list aren't - then it's a rather more formidable problem).
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    ydoethur said:

    October
    Kirknewton to Uddingston via Shotts
    Kilwinning to Largs
    Ardrossan South Beach to Harbour
    Troon to Kilmarnock
    Port Glasgow to Gourock
    Glasgow Central to Neilston
    Glasgow Central to Paisley Canal
    Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride
    Glasgow Central to Cambuslang (via Argyle Street)
    Cambuslang to Larkhall
    Polmont to Glasgow Queen St via Cumbernauld
    Greenfaulds to Hamilton Central via Whifflet
    Drem to North Berwick
    Carstairs East junction to Carstairs
    Mount Florida to Kings Park
    Bellshill to Motherwell
    Shieldmuir to Carluke via Wishaw
    Carluke to Lanark
    Rutherglen to Whifflet via Carmyle
    Glasgow Central to Newton via Maxwell Park
    Holytown to Wishaw
    Westerton to Milngavie
    Dalreoch to Helensburgh Central
    Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland via Maryhill
    Bellgrove to Springburn
    Linlithgow to Dalmeny
    Llangennech to Briton Ferry Up Fast Loop Junction (Swansea District Line)

    Somebody needs to stay in more...
    Well the clocks have gone back, meaning I will probably have to finish off Scotland in the spring and summer :)
    Dear me Sunil. Maybe you don't like the SNP but threatening to destroy all of Scotland once the weather improves seems excessive!
    ooops - reposted my original post for no reason!

    Anyway, I've calculated I just need 12 return journeys to capture - on film! - the main national rail network routes I need.

    Glasgow to Oban/Mallaig/Alloa/Stranraer
    Leuchars to Dundee
    Cardenden loop
    Edinburgh to Perth to Dundee
    Ladybank to Perth
    Perth/Dundee to Inverness
    Inverness to Kyle/Wick
    Make sure you get the 'Cats' on the Cardenden loop and not a dmu!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    TOPPING said:

    Isn't it all about per capita wealth of the surrounding area? I bet the correlation is pretty high. High wealth level = great High Street, lower wealth level = gopping High Street.

    Or being on the tourist trail
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    I reckon that is the last word on his political ambitions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    FPT:

    ydoethur said:

    October
    Kirknewton to Uddingston via Shotts
    Kilwinning to Largs
    Ardrossan South Beach to Harbour
    Troon to Kilmarnock
    Port Glasgow to Gourock
    Glasgow Central to Neilston
    Glasgow Central to Paisley Canal
    Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride
    Glasgow Central to Cambuslang (via Argyle Street)
    Cambuslang to Larkhall
    Polmont to Glasgow Queen St via Cumbernauld
    Greenfaulds to Hamilton Central via Whifflet
    Drem to North Berwick
    Carstairs East junction to Carstairs
    Mount Florida to Kings Park
    Bellshill to Motherwell
    Shieldmuir to Carluke via Wishaw
    Carluke to Lanark
    Rutherglen to Whifflet via Carmyle
    Glasgow Central to Newton via Maxwell Park
    Holytown to Wishaw
    Westerton to Milngavie
    Dalreoch to Helensburgh Central
    Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland via Maryhill
    Bellgrove to Springburn
    Linlithgow to Dalmeny
    Llangennech to Briton Ferry Up Fast Loop Junction (Swansea District Line)

    Somebody needs to stay in more...
    Well the clocks have gone back, meaning I will probably have to finish off Scotland in the spring and summer :)
    Dear me Sunil. Maybe you don't like the SNP but threatening to destroy all of Scotland once the weather improves seems excessive!
    ooops - reposted my original post for no reason!

    Anyway, I've calculated I just need 12 return journeys to capture - on film! - the main national rail network routes I need.

    Glasgow to Oban/Mallaig/Alloa/Stranraer
    Leuchars to Dundee
    Cardenden loop
    Edinburgh to Perth to Dundee
    Ladybank to Perth
    Perth/Dundee to Inverness
    Inverness to Kyle/Wick
    Make sure you get the 'Cats' on the Cardenden loop and not a dmu!
    Otherwise it won't create a Memory?
  • Visited my parents back in Rochdale a few weeks back. A town literally gone mad. Main shopping street either shuttered or with various despair retailers (charity, bookies, vaping). 1970s shopping centre has empty department store and a closed market hall after the council set stall rents to an unsistaunsust level after government cuts meant it had to be self funding. Late 80s shopping centre mostly empty with the library moved out and the department store you used to walk through to get to the bus station long gone. As is the bus station.

    What is the town doing? Building a new shopping centre!!! At the same time as what's left of town centre housing (the "Seven Sisters" tower blocks) are coming back down forcing people to chose to drive into a town centre where neighbouring Bury or Oldham - or Manchester - are better.

    What's the solution? Surely needs to be residential. Rochdale borough has amazing Pennine scenery, a great industrial heritage and good transport links. Making it THE place to live surely is better than trying to compete with the Trafford Centre.
  • PMQs - speeches now, questions and answers rarely heard from the 2 main leaders...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Nigelb said:

    Fenster said:

    Fenster said:

    Very depressing.

    My own town centre has been substantially hollowed out over the last two to three years, and is now dominated by coffee shops, tattoo parlours, barber shops, betting shops and charity shops (which, remarkably, seem to be what people want).

    It's a strange situation because my village in the Welsh valleys seems to be undergoing a revival. We've had two boutique shops open in the past few years, a local grocery has opened (bucking the threat of the large Tescos half a mile away) and we even have a Kurdish barbers.

    It goes to show that it's very much a local thing. Maybe we are just lucky.
    Are you on a tourist trail, or near a national park hotspot?
    No, I'm in a pit village (Ystrad Mynach). We are in a nice spot because we are at the bottom of the valley and only 14 miles by train directly to the centre of Cardiff. I think it's beautiful here; friendly, pretty, communal, sporty, great junior schools, low unemployment and very safe. But whenever I see stats the Caerphilly borough is deemed one of the UK's shitholes. I travel all around the UK and I wouldn't swap the valleys for anywhere. It's not wealthy or sophisticated here but I like it.
    I think this is perhaps the key - making towns nice places to live needn't cost a fortune (although clearly if you're starting with somewhere that really is a bit of a shithole - which most of the places on the header list aren't - then it's a rather more formidable problem).
    It's useful if a place can find a unique or semi-unique 'key' that makes it a destination: for instance, Hay-on-Wye or Wigtown in Scotland with books and bookselling.

    Some places have it naturally: I recently walked through Bourton-in-the-Water, which will always be able to attract tourists. But most places can probably find something to attract tourists, people and jobs in.

    One other thing I'd note: it depends on the people living in an area as well. If locals treat an area poorly, it's hard to get others to treat it well.
  • PMQs - speeches now, questions and answers rarely heard from the 2 main leaders...

    I miss Dave repeatedly taking the piss out of Ed Miliband.

    Halcyon days.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    Pulpstar said:

    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:




    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
    Barnes is like that too. It has a population of 10,000. It has 20 restaurants including Rick Stein and Riva. A lot of coffee shops including Gails. Six good thriving pubs. One of them (Bulls Head) has jazz every night. Coach and Horses has a monthly philosophy club which about 70 people attend. Cinema and theatre. Barnes Fair, Barnes food fair, Barnes Xmas festival, weekly farmers market, specialist cheese shop, wine shop, fish shop, veg shop. A newly opened M&S food market. Barnes music society, Barnes literary society, Barnes history society etc etc. The river and bridges. The common. The pond. No tube.

    [This ad was sponsored by Barnesian]

    EDIT: Question - why? Answer - wealthy well-educated people who cooperate to make it work.
    Sounds very pleasent - of course your property is near the top in terms of price/sq metre for the UK as a whole (Excluding these Oxford Road monstrosities !) so you'd hope for excellent amenities nearby.
    I noted in my recent trip to Normandy there were far more small shops of the sort you describe above, the house prices there wouldn't be so far from the French average.
    I'm not sure what my point is, just its a little sad that what should be a pleasent level of pleasent commercial nearby stock shouldn't just be near the top of the UK market.
    It doesn't appear to be abroad.
    The house prices are high because the amenities are good but many of the amenities are good because the house prices are high. The people who can afford the high house prices also invest time and effort in the community because they are not using all their time and effort merely to survive and compete.

    Cooperation is key.

    I think a lot of damage has been done by the encouragement of personal competition and individualism at the expense of cooperation over the last forty years. It's different in Eastern cultures. That's why they're the future. We are the Neanderthals. Corbyn and McDonnell are our only hope. They see the value of cooperation over competition. [ducks]
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220


    Some places have it naturally: I recently walked through Bourton-in-the-Water, which will always be able to attract tourists.

    I see your Bourton and raise you a Castleton.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    My own new-build 'town' already has some problems. The rent on the few shops available are very high, and as it's all new-build there are no other areas for locals who might want to start a business to go to. We desperately need some small shop units, and instead what we got are three big industrial-unit style warehouse shops - and Poundland's still empty. We also have nowhere for light industry units, the business park being part-empty and the rest unbuilt - again due to the vast rental cost.

    What we need are two or three small units - say 1,000 square or smaller - that could be rented for short periods by people 'trying out' a business. There's certainly lots of entrepreneurial spirit in the town, but they're having to open shops elsewhere.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Pulpstar said:


    Some places have it naturally: I recently walked through Bourton-in-the-Water, which will always be able to attract tourists.

    I see your Bourton and raise you a Castleton.
    Yes, Castleton.

    (sobs softly).

    I miss Castleton.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202
    edited October 2018
    Hammond's move to cut business rates for high street shops and raise taxes on online retailers revenues should help the high street a bit.

    If gaps do emerge still then converting former retail premises to offices or affordable accommodation seems srnsible
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    PMQs - speeches now, questions and answers rarely heard from the 2 main leaders...

    I miss Dave repeatedly taking the piss out of Ed Miliband.

    Halcyon days.
    The lights have gone out in the UK since 2015. We may not see them lit again in our lifetime......
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Barnesian said:

    stodge said:



    One theory I've seen is the notion of "Place" where working, living, relaxing and socialising all happen in the same place or same vicinity so communal areas linked to small-scale office spaces linked to recreational areas linked to residential areas all tied together with strong super-fast WiFi.

    The next revolution could well be in how we live, work, relax, play and interact whereby there is less travel and more happens in the same area - that could be the future of urban centres.

    Yes, Holloway, where I lived till a couple of years ago (Corbyn's home turf), is exactly like that - all the shops, restaurants and stores you could want within an easy walk. It was great and I really miss it in my small town of Haslemere, which is good if you like estate agents and banks but otherwise on the quiet side. I think the traditional planning idea of zoning needs to be junked - most people WANT to live close to shops and businesses, not in a soulless estate of 5,000 more or less identical houses.
    Barnes is like that too. It has a population of 10,000. It has 20 restaurants including Rick Stein and Riva. A lot of coffee shops including Gails. Six good thriving pubs. One of them (Bulls Head) has jazz every night. Coach and Horses has a monthly philosophy club which about 70 people attend. Cinema and theatre. Barnes Fair, Barnes food fair, Barnes Xmas festival, weekly farmers market, specialist cheese shop, wine shop, fish shop, veg shop. A newly opened M&S food market. Barnes music society, Barnes literary society, Barnes history society etc etc. The river and bridges. The common. The pond. No tube.

    [This ad was sponsored by Barnesian]

    EDIT: Question - why? Answer - wealthy well-educated people who cooperate to make it work.
    Sounds lovely. A bit posh for me but nice indeed!

    The wife and me went to Bridport last weekend. It has a thriving high street and there was a great street market on the Saturday. The weather was beautiful (which always helps) but I was taken aback at the thousands of people out. It was hard to move on the pavements. It felt a bit middle-class there (lots of older gentlemen in tweeds, shirt and tie) and a bit of what old-fashioned, well-heeled polite England should be like. Impressive, and not a boarded up shop for miles.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018
    *** Betting Post ***

    I've been looking at the Sporting Index spread markets on turnout in the US mid-terms. I think there could be some value in certain states, but I'm unclear on the definitions of turnout. SPIN say:

    A prediction of the State voter turnout in the US Senate Mid-Term Elections. Settlement will be rounded to one-tenth of a percentage point and adjudicated by www.nytimes.com

    However, turnout in US elections sometimes seems to be expressed as a proportion of registered voters, and sometimes as a proportion of adults of voting age. Does anyone know exactly what definition the NY Times uses?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    It's not that Peter Bone is an utter, utter twat and in the same party as I support that is the problem.

    It is that he and his fellow idiots are close to being if not are already in a position of influence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited October 2018
    I always knew Cameron wasn't completely stupid:

    Overnight it emerged David Cameron regards Michael Gove as a lunatic and that might hinder Gove’s chances.

    Although it does beg the question of why he left him at Education for so many years...
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Isn't it all about per capita wealth of the surrounding area? I bet the correlation is pretty high. High wealth level = great High Street, lower wealth level = gopping High Street.

    I live in Maidenhead which is quite a prosperous town but the local shopping centre has just gone into receivership. I think part of the issue is scale. I might get a few bits and bobs from Maidenhead town centre but for bigger purchases or clothes shopping I would go to High Wycombe or Reading, which have much better shops.
    Interesting - but...are High Wycombe and Reading "wealthier" (who knows?!) than Maidenhead?
    High Wycombe (whose town centre I am writing this from) certainly isn’t. It also has a lot of empty shops in the High Street and the old Chilterns shopping centre, though the newer Eden Centre seems to be doing OK.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Huge cut in the rates for retail space and a massive increase in the rates for retail warehouse space that are in the B2C delivery chain. We're losing out on too much tax income on internet commerce, we need to tip the balance back towards retail and away from faceless internet corporations.
  • TOPPING said:

    It's not that Peter Bone is an utter, utter twat and in the same party as I support that is the problem.

    It is that he and his fellow idiots are close to being if not are already in a position of influence.

    Testify.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Pulpstar said:


    Some places have it naturally: I recently walked through Bourton-in-the-Water, which will always be able to attract tourists.

    I see your Bourton and raise you a Castleton.
    Castleton is lovely. Perhaps I could raise you with a Bradford on Avon (but I prefer Castleton - friendlier accents).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited October 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Hammond's move to cut business rates for high street shops and raise taxes on online retailers revenues should help the high street a bit.

    If gaps do emerge still then converting former retail premises to offices or affordable accommodation seems srnsible

    One word - parking. Outside maybe ten major cities where public transport is both very good and preferable, that is a big, big problem in city centres and converting them to offices or houses would only make it worse.
  • TOPPING said:

    It's not that Peter Bone is an utter, utter twat and in the same party as I support that is the problem.

    It is that he and his fellow idiots are close to being if not are already in a position of influence.

    He is a million miles away from my views and I am confident the ultras like him will not win the day
  • The editor of Waitrose Food magazine, William Sitwell, is standing down with immediate effect after suggesting a series on "killing vegans, one by one".

    He was responding to an email pitch from freelance journalist Selene Nelson who had suggested features on plant-based recipes.

    Sitwell, also a critic on Masterchef, apologised for any offence caused.

    Waitrose said: "William's email absolutely doesn't represent our views about vegans and vegan food."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46042314
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hammond's move to cut business rates for high street shops and raise taxes on online retailers revenues should help the high street a bit.

    If gaps do emerge still then converting former retail premises to offices or affordable accommodation seems srnsible

    One word - parking. Outside maybe ten major cities where public transport is both very good and preferable, that is a big, big problem in city centres and converting them to offices or houses would only make it worse.
    Perhaps that is why Wycombe and Reading are more attractive to shop in: both have shopping centres with large built-in multi story parking.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Fenster said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Some places have it naturally: I recently walked through Bourton-in-the-Water, which will always be able to attract tourists.

    I see your Bourton and raise you a Castleton.
    Castleton is lovely. Perhaps I could raise you with a Bradford on Avon (but I prefer Castleton - friendlier accents).
    I watched a local band play at Peak Cavern there in the summer. I imagine it could be a pain to live there though (Lovely looking but small houses) - and a nightmare in winter !
    Great place to base a walk from though.
  • TOPPING said:

    It's not that Peter Bone is an utter, utter twat and in the same party as I support that is the problem.

    It is that he and his fellow idiots are close to being if not are already in a position of influence.

    His question seemed to be that the Chancellor was championing the benefit of a no deal brexit and using the £38bn as a result - it was gibberish.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hammond's move to cut business rates for high street shops and raise taxes on online retailers revenues should help the high street a bit.

    If gaps do emerge still then converting former retail premises to offices or affordable accommodation seems srnsible

    One word - parking. Outside maybe ten major cities where public transport is both very good and preferable, that is a big, big problem in city centres and converting them to offices or houses would only make it worse.
    In Epping they are looking at underground car parks and the more flats and housing created in towns and cities means the less needed in the greenbelt and countryside
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hammond's move to cut business rates for high street shops and raise taxes on online retailers revenues should help the high street a bit.

    If gaps do emerge still then converting former retail premises to offices or affordable accommodation seems srnsible

    One word - parking. Outside maybe ten major cities where public transport is both very good and preferable, that is a big, big problem in city centres and converting them to offices or houses would only make it worse.
    Perhaps that is why Wycombe and Reading are more attractive to shop in: both have shopping centres with large built-in multi story parking.
    Very probably. Parking in Stafford is to put it mildly rather difficult. And in many places it is also very expensive. It's hardly surprising so many people have shifted to out of town with free parking immediately alongside, or shopping centres.

    Which cities does this not affect? Well, the ones nobody with any sense would drive in anyway. Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham spring to mind, but most of all London.

    For the rest, I would have said the fastest way to start a revival would be to offer 3 hours free parking.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hammond's move to cut business rates for high street shops and raise taxes on online retailers revenues should help the high street a bit.

    If gaps do emerge still then converting former retail premises to offices or affordable accommodation seems srnsible

    One word - parking. Outside maybe ten major cities where public transport is both very good and preferable, that is a big, big problem in city centres and converting them to offices or houses would only make it worse.
    In Epping they are looking at underground car parks and the more flats and housing created in towns and cities means the less needed in the greenbelt and countryside
    Or the first floor as a car park, as in Cannock town centre? It could work, the question is, will it be allowed to?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    The editor of Waitrose Food magazine, William Sitwell, is standing down with immediate effect after suggesting a series on "killing vegans, one by one".

    He was responding to an email pitch from freelance journalist Selene Nelson who had suggested features on plant-based recipes.

    Sitwell, also a critic on Masterchef, apologised for any offence caused.

    Waitrose said: "William's email absolutely doesn't represent our views about vegans and vegan food."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46042314

    Tough to lose your job before christmas, hopefully he can find alternative employment soon.
This discussion has been closed.