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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The budget spread bets – how many times will key words be ment

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  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    ydoethur said:

    OchEye said:

    Fenster said:

    Bad day for labour and terrible response by Corbyn

    The LOTO response makes no difference. The fine detail will provide the headlines.

    On the face of it it's a pretty unexciting budget from an unexciting party in difficult times.
    Unexciting is what you want in a budget. If it isn’t it usually falls apart when the detail is examined.

    BTW is Corbyn still speaking? The Guardian said they would summarise his speech once he’d finished, but that comment was about 40 minutes ago.
    Sorry, but Corbyn tore the Tories apart, the expressions on the cabinet members faces told all, and the general evacuation from the government backbenchers showed it.
    So what were his main points?
    His main point was Austerity Bad, Tories Evil, Me Good.
    You forgot to put that in ALL CAPS - as he didn't stop shouting once.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    OchEye said:

    Fenster said:

    Bad day for labour and terrible response by Corbyn

    The LOTO response makes no difference. The fine detail will provide the headlines.

    On the face of it it's a pretty unexciting budget from an unexciting party in difficult times.
    Unexciting is what you want in a budget. If it isn’t it usually falls apart when the detail is examined.

    BTW is Corbyn still speaking? The Guardian said they would summarise his speech once he’d finished, but that comment was about 40 minutes ago.
    Sorry, but Corbyn tore the Tories apart, the expressions on the cabinet members faces told all, and the general evacuation from the government backbenchers showed it.
    So what were his main points?
    His main point was Austerity Bad, Tories Evil, Me Good.
    Well, I always tell my students to use bullet points...

    I assume it was quick then?
    Corbyn? Quick? It lasted nearly forty minutes I think.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh lord. A rash of the @Ydoethurs

    Are you referring to my posts or his puns?
    His toilet related puns. Awful. Really not sure where the adult stuff comes from.
    All very well for you men. You can go and pee anywhere - and a few weeks ago late at night I saw a man openly relieving himself in front of a Waitrose, without even making any attempt to be discreet, for God’s sake! - but we ladies can’t and don’t want to have to go into a coffee shop and buy their bloody awful cappuccinos just to use the loo.
    Do what the rest of us do - go into a pub and use their loo without buying anything
    I always feel that I'm taking the piss when I do that.

    Edit - oh shit, I'm proving @DavidL right!!!
    Hah!

    And your viewing plans this evening?
    Can I make it Carry on Columbus instead? It's a much better film.
    I think you are missing the point of this. Bit like Corbyn really.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    OchEye said:

    Fenster said:

    Bad day for labour and terrible response by Corbyn

    The LOTO response makes no difference. The fine detail will provide the headlines.

    On the face of it it's a pretty unexciting budget from an unexciting party in difficult times.
    Unexciting is what you want in a budget. If it isn’t it usually falls apart when the detail is examined.

    BTW is Corbyn still speaking? The Guardian said they would summarise his speech once he’d finished, but that comment was about 40 minutes ago.
    Sorry, but Corbyn tore the Tories apart, the expressions on the cabinet members faces told all, and the general evacuation from the government backbenchers showed it.
    So what were his main points?
    His main point was Austerity Bad, Tories Evil, Me Good.
    You forgot to put that in ALL CAPS - as he didn't stop shouting once.
    It was painful. It was like Iain Duncan Smith with less intelligence and less concern for poor people.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh lord. A rash of the @Ydoethurs

    Are you referring to my posts or his puns?
    His toilet related puns. Awful. Really not sure where the adult stuff comes from.
    All very well for you men. You can go and pee anywhere - and a few weeks ago late at night I saw a man openly relieving himself in front of a Waitrose, without even making any attempt to be discreet, for God’s sake! - but we ladies can’t and don’t want to have to go into a coffee shop and buy their bloody awful cappuccinos just to use the loo.
    Do what the rest of us do - go into a pub and use their loo without buying anything
    I always feel that I'm taking the piss when I do that.

    Edit - oh shit, I'm proving @DavidL right!!!
    Hah!

    And your viewing plans this evening?
    Can I make it Carry on Columbus instead? It's a much better film.
    I think you are missing the point of this. Bit like Corbyn really.
    All right. How about Star Trek 5, which is about the same level of awfuln but won't pollute the planet as much?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    A £30bn increase in spending is not insignificant and really should boost short term growth. It would be disappointing if that did not generate more growth than currently forecast.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Vince is alive!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh lord. A rash of the @Ydoethurs

    Are you referring to my posts or his puns?
    His toilet related puns. Awful. Really not sure where the adult stuff comes from.
    All very well for you men. You can go and pee anywhere - and a few weeks ago late at night I saw a man openly relieving himself in front of a Waitrose, without even making any attempt to be discreet, for God’s sake! - but we ladies can’t and don’t want to have to go into a coffee shop and buy their bloody awful cappuccinos just to use the loo.
    Do what the rest of us do - go into a pub and use their loo without buying anything
    I always feel that I'm taking the piss when I do that.

    Edit - oh shit, I'm proving @DavidL right!!!
    Hah!

    And your viewing plans this evening?
    Can I make it Carry on Columbus instead? It's a much better film.
    I think you are missing the point of this. Bit like Corbyn really.
    All right. How about Star Trek 5, which is about the same level of awfuln but won't pollute the planet as much?
    Deal. It’s terrible too.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    Mortimer said:

    Hammond says he will extend the rules on IR35 to the private sector, but delay the changes until April 2020, and only apply them to large and medium-sized businesses.

    Ouch - that's a biggie.

    Makes an awful lot of sense. Easier to go after the businesses for non compliance than the individuals.
    More to the point, it's easier to pressure the businesses to incorrectly make an "inside IR35" call.
    After all, HMRC has lost the vast majority of their IR35 cases in the past decade when they have taken the ones they judge to be the most egregious and blatant offenders to tribunal. Implying that their judgement on how many freelancers are actually breaking the rules is hugely incorrect.

    The Off-Payroll rules they rolled out in the public sector not only use a tool that's incorrectly set up to make "inside IR35" judgements (as shown from a number of cases) but put the default pressure on bodies that don't like assuming risk to make a blanket "inside IR35" call.

    There was a particularly amusing case recently where a contractor who'd been placed inside IR35 by the tool took the body to court for withholding a set of NI payments incorrectly, "lost" the case and the judge said he was definitely not an employee. So if he'd won, he'd have been owed several thousand pounds. Because he lost, he was owed... several thousand pounds for another reason. A true "win-win" case.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    An interesting snippet from the briefing paper on the changes to Universal Credit:

    Britain is spending more on disability and incapacity benefits as a share of GDP than all other G7 countries except Germany.

    Not something which gets prominent coverage on the BBC or in the Guardian!

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/752073/Universal_Credit_web.pdf

    Its the faux self employed who are the ones losing out with UC.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited October 2018
    Roger said:

    A difficult job but Corbyn was poor. All over the place. He'd have done much better to choose a single theme. Incomprehensible actually and listening on radio it felt eerily quiet.

    Oh dear, given Rogerdamus record, I am worried now that Corbyn's response might have been brilliant...Labour lead of 10points in next polls....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    This woman is complaining that the Chancellor did not do enough to stimulate construction whose number one problem, according to her, is....skill shortages. Surely some mistake?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    DavidL said:

    This woman is complaining that the Chancellor did not do enough to stimulate construction whose number one problem, according to her, is....skill shortages. Surely some mistake?

    no shes an idiot
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    This woman is complaining that the Chancellor did not do enough to stimulate construction whose number one problem, according to her, is....skill shortages. Surely some mistake?

    no shes an idiot
    Well that’s the other possibility. I wouldn’t be employing her as a consultant.
  • Roger said:

    A difficult job but Corbyn was poor. All over the place. He'd have done much better to choose a single theme. Incomprehensible actually and listening on radio it felt eerily quiet.

    Oh dear, given Rogerdamus record, I am worried now that Corbyn's response might have been brilliant...Labour lead of 10points in next polls....
    That would prevent any ideas of a snap election.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    That budget gave me the horn.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    That budget gave me the horn.

    French horn? Or just trumpeting your liking for it?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    edited October 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare Corbyn go on about womens refuges. He wants to allow self-id thus allowing a violent man to self-id and enter such a refuge and any other safe space for women.

    As the Karen White case shows, that is more than a theoretical risk.
    Of course. As would be obvious to anyone with a brain not blinded by ideology.

    I am going to phrase this as carefully as possible.

    Experience has taught us that men (and sometimes women) with a sexual interest in children will do whatever is necessary to put themselves in a position where they have access to children and where their position is such that they will not be (or are very unlikely to be) questioned.

    It is therefore likely that men wishing to harm women will do whatever is necessary to put themselves in a position where they can do so. Self-id and, therefore (if the proposals go through without any sort of controls / medical diagnosis) the ability to access spaces where there are women, often in a vulnerable position (refuges, changing rooms etc) provides an opportunity for such men and puts women at risk. An unnecessary risk. The right of women to be safe is important. The right to do without a bit of bureaucracy is not an important right. Indeed, what is described as a bit of bureaucracy are safeguards to ensure that changing gender is genuine, a properly thought out decision, medically recognised and evidenced by changes in behaviour.

    I am not, please note, comparing transgender people to paedophiles. I am comparing rapists to paedophiles in that both will take advantage of opportunities to do harm to their intended victims. I do not think that we should create more such opportunities. There is a process for changing gender. Make improvements to that process to help genuine transgender people, by all means. But do not do so in a way which diminishes womens’ rights.
  • That budget gave me the horn.

    Is that your summary of Corbyn’s response?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    sarissa said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    So, back to the important business. Where's the weakness in this budget? My instinctive answer is that trouble will come from one of IR35 or UC, both of which strike me as to put it mildly hostages to fortune.

    But the tax threshold and business rates will likely be well received. Didn't see either of those coming.

    UC, very probably.
    It's not at all clear how much the extra help for transitional relief, together with the extra annual increase, will mitigate the pain
    Early estimates seem to be it will be worth about £750 against a possible loss of £2400 for those switching.
    That's the average gain and average loss?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited October 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare Corbyn go on about womens refuges. He wants to allow self-id thus allowing a violent man to self-id and enter such a refuge and any other safe space for women.

    As the Karen White case shows, that is more than a theoretical risk.
    Of course. As would be obvious to anyone with a brain not blinded by ideology.

    I am going to phrase this as carefully as possible.

    Experience has taught us that men (and sometimes women) with a sexual interest in children will do whatever is necessary to put themselves in a position where they have access to children and where their position is such that they will not be (or are very unlikely to be) questioned.

    It is therefore likely that men wishing to harm women will do whatever is necessary to put themselves in a position where they can do so. Self-id and, therefore (if the proposals go through without any sort of controls / medical diagnosis) the ability to access spaces where there are women, often in a vulnerable position (refuges, changing rooms etc) provides an opportunity for such men and puts women at risk. An unnecessary risk. The right of women to be safe is important. The right to do without a bit of bureaucracy is not an important right. Indeed, what is described as a bit of bureaucracy are safeguards to ensure that changing gender is genuine, a properly thought out decision, medically recognised and evidenced by changes in behaviour.

    I am not, please note, comparing transgender people to paedophiles. I am comparing rapists to paedophiles in that both will takenadvantages of opportunities to do harm to their intended victims. I do not think that we should create more such opportunities. There is a process for changing gender. Make improvements to that process to help genuine transgender people, by all means. But do not do so in a way which diminishes womens’ rights.
    You are not comparing transgender people to paedophiles: you are comparing them to teachers. We can’t just turn up at a school and self-identify as teachers; we have to go though a set of checks first.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare Corbyn go on about womens refuges. He wants to allow self-id thus allowing a violent man to self-id and enter such a refuge and any other safe space for women.

    As the Karen White case shows, that is more than a theoretical risk.
    Of course. As would be obvious to anyone with a brain not blinded by ideology.

    I am going to phrase this as carefully as possible.

    Experience has taught us that men (and sometimes women) with a sexual interest in children will do whatever is necessary to put themselves in a position where they have access to children and where their position is such that they will not be (or are very unlikely to be) questioned.

    It is therefore likely that men wishing to harm women will do whatever is necessary to put themselves in a position where they can do so. Self-id and, therefore (if the proposals go through without any sort of controls / medical diagnosis) the ability to access spaces where there are women, often in a vulnerable position (refuges, changing rooms etc) provides an opportunity for such men and puts women at risk. An unnecessary risk. The right of women to be safe is important. The right to do without a bit of bureaucracy is not an important right. Indeed, what is described as a bit of bureaucracy are safeguards to ensure that changing gender is genuine, a properly thought out decision, medically recognised and evidenced by changes in behaviour.

    I am not, please note, comparing transgender people to paedophiles. I am comparing rapists to paedophiles in that both will take advantage of opportunities to do harm to their intended victims. I do not think that we should create more such opportunities. There is a process for changing gender. Make improvements to that process to help genuine transgender people, by all means. But do not do so in a way which diminishes womens’ rights.
    WHere you do not have such checks you get disasters like this:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6139305/Transgender-prisoner-rapist-identifies-woman-admits-sexually-assaulting-fellow-inmates.html

    I discussed this case with my all-female Ethics A-level class, and they all felt this was a sign something has gone very wrong with equality law.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    ydoethur said:

    That budget gave me the horn.

    French horn? Or just trumpeting your liking for it?
    The latter, although I could probably afford to buy a French horn now with that tax cut.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited October 2018
    HYUFD said:
    Something he has in common with Stalin (except Stalin was training to become a Russian Orthodox one of course).
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    McDonnell looks really miffed

    Corbyn is responding for Labour I think? Is that unusual? I don't recall
    Standard form -- Leader of the Opposition responds to the budget statement. The Shadow Chancellor will lead for Labour on the budget debate over the next few days.

    The LoTO response is often a bit lame and restricted to generalities because he has had no advance sight of the budget measures, many of which are hidden in the red book which is released only after the budget speech.
    In fairness some LotO are very good at responding quickly. Blair, Hague and Howard were all very quick to seize on weaknesses in a budget. Cameron and Miliband rather less so.

    Corbyn has now completely lost his way. He doesn't have any thread to this speech at all.
    Harold Wilson was very good.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    That budget gave me the horn.

    French horn? Or just trumpeting your liking for it?
    The latter, although I could probably afford to buy a French horn now with that tax cut.
    You are saying you have a brass neck?

    @DavidL I am dutifully watching Star Trek V. It's really bad. I forgave you. Can you forgive me please?
  • Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare Corbyn go on about womens refuges. He wants to allow self-id thus allowing a violent man to self-id and enter such a refuge and any other safe space for women.

    As the Karen White case shows, that is more than a theoretical risk.
    Of course. As would be obvious to anyone with a brain not blinded by ideology.

    I am going to phrase this as carefully as possible.

    I am not, please note, comparing transgender people to paedophiles. I am comparing rapists to paedophiles in that both will take advantage of opportunities to do harm to their intended victims. I do not think that we should create more such opportunities. There is a process for changing gender. Make improvements to that process to help genuine transgender people, by all means. But do not do so in a way which diminishes womens’ rights.
    WHere you do not have such checks you get disasters like this:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6139305/Transgender-prisoner-rapist-identifies-woman-admits-sexually-assaulting-fellow-inmates.html

    I discussed this case with my all-female Ethics A-level class, and they all felt this was a sign something has gone very wrong with equality law.
    Equality Law was massively screwed by the act that was driven through by Harman. It ignored basic common sense in order to impose an agenda based on ideology rather than fairness.

    Sadly the subsequent governments did nothing to undo the bad work of that and further compounded it.

    As of yet, we don't have any real understanding on the long term effects of the apparent growth in gender-related issues. And until we do, we should tread very lightly lest we do harm. We have no idea what the unintended consequences of these changes will be.

    Everyone should be as free as possible to live their lives as they want. But basic protections for society as a whole should be maintained.

    We are dealing with a modern view of gender that is a recent creation. Add to that a conflation of gender with sexuality and we are creating tensions that are doing harm on both sides of the divide.

    The proposed changes to the GRA should be paused until sufficient medical and sociological evidence is produced that backs up what is envisioned. As of yet, I have seen nothing to justify such a radical reshaping of our society.

    At the end of the day, we still have to medically treat individuals on the basis of their biological sex. No amount of self-id will change that basic truth. That does not mean that unnecessary barriers to should be created to stop people living as they choose. But it does mean that the law should not be used to further an agenda rather than creating the best possible environment for self-expression as well as societal protection.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    There's another £15-20bn headroom to spend next year as well by my back of the fag packet calculations. Pre election bonanza.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
  • SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:
    That's not how you spell "buoyant".
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    I think if there is a no deal the government will hold on, if there's a deal they will push it through sign it with the EU and then go to the public on the back of a "deal dividend" from the £15-20bn of headroom already on the books.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    Anyone fancy a job as an airline pilot?

    https://twitter.com/AeroSociety/status/1053368974937858048
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Hammond handled it well.

    But the fact that the government could have balanced the budget for the first time and eliminate the deficit - but instead chose to spend the money on a series of giveaways - is actually a sign of political weakness and an indication of how close to panic they are, as Brexit looms.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square one if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    He’s giving himself options.

    It reminds Tory MPs why they’re Tories whilst also gives a nice retail offer to the electorate should a GE be necessary.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Anyone fancy a job as an airline pilot?

    https://twitter.com/AeroSociety/status/1053368974937858048

    Looks like coincidence given they've trotted out 20 false alarms
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.

    Always a relief for me when he doesn't add another year to state retirement age.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
    No, what I'm suggesting is that we get a deal with the EU, but Labour and a few ultras block it. In that circumstance, going to the electorate for a mandate to ratify the deal could make sense, or at least more sense than any other course of action.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
    I doubt it, it would likely see Corbyn PM of a minority government but given about 45% of voters back No Deal over Remain most of whom now back the Tories or would move from UKIP to back a No Deal Tory Party that is hardly a 30% 1997 wipeout for the Tories. A Corbyn premiership would swiftly see the UK return to the negotiating table in Brussels anyway
  • AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Anyone fancy a job as an airline pilot?

    https://twitter.com/AeroSociety/status/1053368974937858048

    When I was about 6 or 7, I wanted to be an airline pilot. Then aged 8, I needed to wear glasses...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
    No, what I'm suggesting is that we get a deal with the EU, but Labour and a few ultras block it. In that circumstance, going to the electorate for a mandate to ratify the deal could make sense, or at least more sense than any other course of action.
    I think if a deal is put to Parliament that the EU had ratified it would sail through with 300 Con plus 100 Lab at least. If Labour play silly buggers on it they will get punished by the public and I think they know that. I guess this budget is a message to Labour as much as our lot that the government are ready to face them down with a GE.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
    No, what I'm suggesting is that we get a deal with the EU, but Labour and a few ultras block it. In that circumstance, going to the electorate for a mandate to ratify the deal could make sense, or at least more sense than any other course of action.
    That would put the ERG in an interesting position.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    He’s giving himself options.

    It reminds Tory MPs why they’re Tories whilst also gives a nice retail offer to the electorate should a GE be necessary.
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That budget gave me the horn.

    French horn? Or just trumpeting your liking for it?
    The latter, although I could probably afford to buy a French horn now with that tax cut.
    You are saying you have a brass neck?

    @DavidL I am dutifully watching Star Trek V. It's really bad. I forgave you. Can you forgive me please?
    Of course. Hope it’s not too late.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,690
    The Austerity is over (especially if you are a judge) Budget
  • The Austerity is over (especially if you are a judge) Budget

    Did it ever begin?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.


    It seems a bit unfair when there were so many unnecessary words.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
    No, what I'm suggesting is that we get a deal with the EU, but Labour and a few ultras block it. In that circumstance, going to the electorate for a mandate to ratify the deal could make sense, or at least more sense than any other course of action.
    Well, provided she doesn’t talk about long term social care for the elderly again.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    IanB2 said:

    Hammond handled it well.

    But the fact that the government could have balanced the budget for the first time and eliminate the deficit - but instead chose to spend the money on a series of giveaways - is actually a sign of political weakness and an indication of how close to panic they are, as Brexit looms.

    There’s enough wiggle room in there to close the deficit entirely by 2025 if things pick up just a little bit.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Puts the SNP in a spot.

    Tax flight from Scotland is already underway - could it accelerate ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    DavidL said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    He’s giving himself options.

    It reminds Tory MPs why they’re Tories whilst also gives a nice retail offer to the electorate should a GE be necessary.
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That budget gave me the horn.

    French horn? Or just trumpeting your liking for it?
    The latter, although I could probably afford to buy a French horn now with that tax cut.
    You are saying you have a brass neck?

    @DavidL I am dutifully watching Star Trek V. It's really bad. I forgave you. Can you forgive me please?
    Of course. Hope it’s not too late.
    Phew...

    I'm still just about sane. Don't mention rocket boots though...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    edited October 2018
    DavidL said:

    SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.


    It seems a bit unfair when there were so many unnecessary words.
    Suited me, I was on longer than 60 min at 4/1.

    Nice income tax cut for me, worth a grand a year, I reckon, more money for the NHS so as much overtime as I choose to do, and no tax on my lump sum next year.

    I have always rated spreadsheet Phil. :)
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That budget gave me the horn.

    French horn? Or just trumpeting your liking for it?
    The latter, although I could probably afford to buy a French horn now with that tax cut.
    You are saying you have a brass neck?

    @DavidL I am dutifully watching Star Trek V. It's really bad. I forgave you. Can you forgive me please?
    Star Trek V has some decent gags, such as:

    [Klingon Ambassador belches] "I guess that's Klingon for hello!"

    - "I do not believe you realize the gravity of your situation."
    - "Gravity was foremost on my mind."

    "Please, Captain - not in front of the Klingons!"

    Um, you get the picture.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Do you think a snap one after 29th March might be called, or possibly before if the govt can't get Brexiteers through the house ?
    My guess is that they are thinking about what might happen if they can't get the Withdrawal agreement through the House. There would by no time for a referendum, but a GE can be called quite quickly, and Labour can hardly object, having been asking for one for months. So a GE, high-risk though it is, might be the only possibility, probably with a request for a short extension to Art 50.

    Of course it might leave thing back at square 1 if there's again a hung parliament, but I suspect no-one has any better ideas.
    I don't think we could go to the public on the back of failure to secure a deal. It would result in a 1997 style wipe out, whatever some of our members and MPs seem to believe.
    No, what I'm suggesting is that we get a deal with the EU, but Labour and a few ultras block it. In that circumstance, going to the electorate for a mandate to ratify the deal could make sense, or at least more sense than any other course of action.
    McDonnell suggested Labour could back the Withdrawal Agreement yesterday anyway as Labour back the backstop for NI and Citizens' rights and the transition period etc. It is the ERG and DUP who oppose the backstop and the likely Withdrawal Agreement and Chequers, Labour only oppose Chequers but Chequers will only be negotiated as a basis for the future economic relationship in a transition period.

    Labour could vote against the government on a No confidence vote though if the Withdrawal Agreement passes and hope the DUP and some ERG MPs join them
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.


    It seems a bit unfair when there were so many unnecessary words.
    Suited me, I was on longer than 60 min at 4/1.

    Nice income tax cut for me, worth a grand a year, I reckon, more money for the NHS so as much overtime as I choose to do, and no tax on my lump sum next year.

    I have always rated spreadsheet Phil. :)
    It’s that kind of disinterested analysis that always makes Budget day so much fun.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Mike you're older than me! 1962 was the last time on a Monday.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    That budget gave me the horn.

    Whatever turns you on I guess.... :D
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    Con can't allow The Glum's (May and Hammond) to face the electorate for a second time...

    #electoralsuicide
  • Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728

    Ahem - from the Guardian live blog:

    Don’t tell Brenda from Bristol, but there’s some chatter in the City tonight that Philip Hammond may have been paving the way for an early general election.

    You read it first here, and before Hammond stood up.

    He’s giving himself options.

    It reminds Tory MPs why they’re Tories whilst also gives a nice retail offer to the electorate should a GE be necessary.
    Although I don't think he'd hold one, this makes sense. Their great mistake last time was in effect not being on a political election footing - no retail offers to build on, no grand narrative, so got fought to a standstill by an oppositio who were because they were preparing a blitz of goodies to save Corbyn anyway. He and and May so need to a) state at least level pegging in the polls b) divide the merely grumpy from the lunatics and c) be ready to soften the blow of the inevitable bad Brexit d) be prepared to hold one if their frothers threaten to burn down the house. This we saw small giveaways that can be expanded on should the need arise - either to dissuade dissenters or as a big offer to voters in the event of an election or dip in fortunes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    Not least because according to the BBC calculator I am another £20 a month worse off, even before I get to pay my extra tariffs for living in Scotland.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    edited October 2018

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    There still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about UC.

    No existing claimants moving onto UC lose anything at all - there is 100% transitional protection.

    The losers are new claimants - who can lose massive sums compared to what they would have got under the old system.

    But of course new claimants don't know what they would have got under the old system - hence why there hasn't been a big public outcry. Matt Hancock is in an area which adopted UC early and he hasn't received a single letter about it.

    Paul Johnson seems to be the only person who actually understands what's going on - there are huge losers (and some winners) but they are new claimants - in order to ensure no new claimant loses vs the old system would actually cost about £10bn per year from memory.

    But Johnson says the big risk for the Govt is a completely different one - it's of the admin falling over such that there are massive delays in payments.
  • DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    Not least because according to the BBC calculator I am another £20 a month worse off, even before I get to pay my extra tariffs for living in Scotland.
    But most of all because if you choose just one tax or spending measure, you can make up any result you like.

    Effect of change to Universal Credit:

    Family on £14K: +£630
    Banker on £200K: £0.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    Not least because according to the BBC calculator I am another £20 a month worse off, even before I get to pay my extra tariffs for living in Scotland.
    But most of all because if you choose just one tax or spending measure, you can make up any result you like.

    Effect of change to Universal Credit:

    Family on £14K: +£630
    Banker on £200K: £0.
    Some of my £20 was in wine in fairness.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018
    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited October 2018
    Budget not going down well with everybody. Teachers seem particular angry that more on potholes and Hammond talking about money for those little extras.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    Don't you believe it! Of all the things that the Chancellor has done, that was the one that caught my eye. I appreciate that the threshold was held by Osborne for a number of years, but I'd suggest increasing it by as much as he has is a mistake.
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    MikeL said:

    There still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about UC.

    No existing claimants moving onto UC lose anything at all - there is 100% transitional protection.

    The losers are new claimants - who can lose massive sums compared to what they would have got under the old system.

    But of course new claimants don't know what they would have got under the old system - hence why there hasn't been a big public outcry. Matt Hancock is in an area which adopted UC early and he hasn't received a single letter about it.

    Paul Johnson seems to be the only person who actually understands what's going on - there are huge losers (and some winners) but they are new claimants - in order to ensure no new claimant loses vs the old system would actually cost about £10bn per year from memory.

    But Johnson says the big risk for the Govt is a completely different one - it's of the admin falling over such that there are massive delays in payments.

    I don't think it's true that existing UC claimants are all protected by transitional relief. My understanding is that the relief only applies as long as your claims don't change. In practice many people on low incomes have variable circumstances - sporadic earnings, periodic illness and so on.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    Budget not going down well with everybody. Teachers seem particular angry that more on potholes and Hammond talking about money for those little extras.

    Is it even possible to have a budget that goes down well with everybody?

    I have to say though that teachers generally seem pretty angry in my experience. I won't tackle the question of whether it is justified.
  • tlg86 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    Don't you believe it! Of all the things that the Chancellor has done, that was the one that caught my eye. I appreciate that the threshold was held by Osborne for a number of years, but I'd suggest increasing it by as much as he has is a mistake.
    It's certainly a surprisingly big change, yes. A mistake? Dunno. In electoral terms probably not - it most helps the upper-middle-range income families, who have been pretty badly hit relative to other groups in recent years.

    The cumulative effect of measures since the Autumn statement 2016 looks pretty sensible:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f2866e2140fbfeca60c9cf033dd97f5f96c20172/0_0_617_440/master/617.png?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=ec39fa577045b92f798a394748333419
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    MikeL said:

    There still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about UC.

    No existing claimants moving onto UC lose anything at all - there is 100% transitional protection.

    The losers are new claimants - who can lose massive sums compared to what they would have got under the old system.

    But of course new claimants don't know what they would have got under the old system - hence why there hasn't been a big public outcry. Matt Hancock is in an area which adopted UC early and he hasn't received a single letter about it.

    Paul Johnson seems to be the only person who actually understands what's going on - there are huge losers (and some winners) but they are new claimants - in order to ensure no new claimant loses vs the old system would actually cost about £10bn per year from memory.

    But Johnson says the big risk for the Govt is a completely different one - it's of the admin falling over such that there are massive delays in payments.

    But the tiniest change in circumstances, moves existing claimants onto the new system.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    tlg86 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    Don't you believe it! Of all the things that the Chancellor has done, that was the one that caught my eye. I appreciate that the threshold was held by Osborne for a number of years, but I'd suggest increasing it by as much as he has is a mistake.
    It's certainly a surprisingly big change, yes. A mistake? Dunno. In electoral terms probably not - it most helps the upper-middle-range income families, who have been pretty badly hit relative to other groups in recent years.

    The cumulative effect of measures since the Autumn statement 2016 looks pretty sensible:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f2866e2140fbfeca60c9cf033dd97f5f96c20172/0_0_617_440/master/617.png?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=ec39fa577045b92f798a394748333419
    Yet again we have the fantasy that there's anything "middle" about an income of £46k. £46k was the 86th centile in 2015/16. I get fed up of those on such incomes bleating about poorly off they are. Get into the real world.
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    In those particular circumstances, the person will pay 31% less tax in total in 2019/20 than they would before the budget. They would probably also benefit from the increase in the Minimum Wage. People in different circumstances would be affected in different ways. It makes no sense to generalise about the impact on the basis of one tax measure.
  • Chris_A said:

    tlg86 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    Don't you believe it! Of all the things that the Chancellor has done, that was the one that caught my eye. I appreciate that the threshold was held by Osborne for a number of years, but I'd suggest increasing it by as much as he has is a mistake.
    It's certainly a surprisingly big change, yes. A mistake? Dunno. In electoral terms probably not - it most helps the upper-middle-range income families, who have been pretty badly hit relative to other groups in recent years.

    The cumulative effect of measures since the Autumn statement 2016 looks pretty sensible:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f2866e2140fbfeca60c9cf033dd97f5f96c20172/0_0_617_440/master/617.png?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=ec39fa577045b92f798a394748333419
    Yet again we have the fantasy that there's anything "middle" about an income of £46k. £46k was the 86th centile in 2015/16. I get fed up of those on such incomes bleating about poorly off they are. Get into the real world.
    You don't seem to have quite understood the word 'upper'.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    FF43 said:

    MikeL said:

    There still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about UC.

    No existing claimants moving onto UC lose anything at all - there is 100% transitional protection.

    The losers are new claimants - who can lose massive sums compared to what they would have got under the old system.

    But of course new claimants don't know what they would have got under the old system - hence why there hasn't been a big public outcry. Matt Hancock is in an area which adopted UC early and he hasn't received a single letter about it.

    Paul Johnson seems to be the only person who actually understands what's going on - there are huge losers (and some winners) but they are new claimants - in order to ensure no new claimant loses vs the old system would actually cost about £10bn per year from memory.

    But Johnson says the big risk for the Govt is a completely different one - it's of the admin falling over such that there are massive delays in payments.

    I don't think it's true that existing UC claimants are all protected by transitional relief. My understanding is that the relief only applies as long as your claims don't change. In practice many people on low incomes have variable circumstances - sporadic earnings, periodic illness and so on.
    Agreed - that is true.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Evening all :)

    Public Finance has their take on the Budget:

    https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2018/10/hammond-hands-out-billions-saying-austerity-ending1?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=

    So councils are to get £650m extra in this year's settlement but which Council gets how much isn't of course stated. The £84m for Childrens Services is spread over five years so is a drop in the ocean. £420m will help with potholes but again where will it go and how does it stack against the estimated £8 billion total repair bill?

    A lot of this largesse is a political gimmick - no one seriously believes it does any more than kick the can down the road for another year and the scale of the financial pressures facing some authorities will be exposed when budgets are set in the early part of next year and of course for many District and Borough Councils it's election time in May 2019..
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    tlg86 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    Don't you believe it! Of all the things that the Chancellor has done, that was the one that caught my eye. I appreciate that the threshold was held by Osborne for a number of years, but I'd suggest increasing it by as much as he has is a mistake.
    It's certainly a surprisingly big change, yes. A mistake? Dunno. In electoral terms probably not - it most helps the upper-middle-range income families, who have been pretty badly hit relative to other groups in recent years.

    The cumulative effect of measures since the Autumn statement 2016 looks pretty sensible:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f2866e2140fbfeca60c9cf033dd97f5f96c20172/0_0_617_440/master/617.png?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=ec39fa577045b92f798a394748333419
    Yet again we have the fantasy that there's anything "middle" about an income of £46k. £46k was the 86th centile in 2015/16. I get fed up of those on such incomes bleating about poorly off they are. Get into the real world.
    You don't seem to have quite understood the word 'upper'.
    Ditto you "middle".
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited October 2018
    https://tinyurl.com/y8u7af3z

    If you are earning £50,000 a year, the chancellor has just handed you a £860 income tax cut – or six times the £130 that will go to someone who earns £12,500 a year – as the centrepiece of a mildly giveaway budget haunted by the prospect of Brexit and anaemic economic growth.

    I hope Spreadsheet Phil is prepared for how to answer questions on this tomorrow.

    EDIT: Ah, the small print!

    Some of this gain will be clawed back by changes to national insurance – which were not mentioned in the budget. The starting points for national insurance will rise only in line with inflation, or much less than the income tax giveaway, while on those earnings between £46,350 and £50,000 there will be 12% NI to pay. Accountants suggest that the £50,000 earner will be around £520 a year better off once NI is taken into account.
  • That budget gave me the horn.

    Are you SeanT in disguise? :lol:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.


    It seems a bit unfair when there were so many unnecessary words.
    Suited me, I was on longer than 60 min at 4/1.

    Nice income tax cut for me, worth a grand a year, I reckon, more money for the NHS so as much overtime as I choose to do, and no tax on my lump sum next year.

    I have always rated spreadsheet Phil. :)
    It’s that kind of disinterested analysis that always makes Budget day so much fun.
    Seriously, Phil Hammond is the only member of the cabinet that I would vote for. I like his grip on the finances and willingness to stand firm against the loonier members around the table.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    SPIN have settled on one 'pensions' and two 'educations'. Oh well, it was worth a punt.

    Interesting that there were no changes to pensions at all, either the State Pension or the rules for contributing to pensions.


    It seems a bit unfair when there were so many unnecessary words.
    Suited me, I was on longer than 60 min at 4/1.

    Nice income tax cut for me, worth a grand a year, I reckon, more money for the NHS so as much overtime as I choose to do, and no tax on my lump sum next year.

    I have always rated spreadsheet Phil. :)
    It’s that kind of disinterested analysis that always makes Budget day so much fun.
    Seriously, Phil Hammond is the only member of the cabinet that I would vote for. I like his grip on the finances and willingness to stand firm against the loonier members around the table.
    Remember, there are two types of chancellor: those that fail and those that get out in time.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Hi
    Chris_A said:

    tlg86 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    Don't you believe it! Of all the things that the Chancellor has done, that was the one that caught my eye. I appreciate that the threshold was held by Osborne for a number of years, but I'd suggest increasing it by as much as he has is a mistake.
    It's certainly a surprisingly big change, yes. A mistake? Dunno. In electoral terms probably not - it most helps the upper-middle-range income families, who have been pretty badly hit relative to other groups in recent years.

    The cumulative effect of measures since the Autumn statement 2016 looks pretty sensible:

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f2866e2140fbfeca60c9cf033dd97f5f96c20172/0_0_617_440/master/617.png?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=ec39fa577045b92f798a394748333419
    Yet again we have the fantasy that there's anything "middle" about an income of £46k. £46k was the 86th centile in 2015/16. I get fed up of those on such incomes bleating about poorly off they are. Get into the real world.
    £46k in the South East means a pretty frugal lifestyle, especially if you have a family to support.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2018
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Anyone fancy a job as an airline pilot?

    https://twitter.com/AeroSociety/status/1053368974937858048

    Why do all the crew at the front look really, really short compared to the Brobdingnagian crew at the back?
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    Also a little misleading. According to HMRC spreadsheet £56K is 91st percentile and anyone 86th or above will gain something from higher rate threshold increase. So it is for the higher paid but benefiting more than 10% rather than 3%.
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    There is obviously a gap in the political market for a party to stand up for "lazy single people" since every other party tries to cater for "hard working families".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    There is obviously a gap in the political market for a party to stand up for "lazy single people" since every other party tries to cater for "hard working families".
    Finally someone to speak to my demographic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    There is obviously a gap in the political market for a party to stand up for "lazy single people" since every other party tries to cater for "hard working families".
    Finally someone to speak to my demographic.
    How about you and I form this new party together? I'd have to quit my job, but I daresay I could survive that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    There is obviously a gap in the political market for a party to stand up for "lazy single people" since every other party tries to cater for "hard working families".
    Finally someone to speak to my demographic.
    How about you and I form this new party together? I'd have to quit my job, but I daresay I could survive that.
    It sounds a great idea, but when standing up for the lazy, how could anyone have the effort to lead? Quite the conundrum.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    There is obviously a gap in the political market for a party to stand up for "lazy single people" since every other party tries to cater for "hard working families".
    Finally someone to speak to my demographic.
    How about you and I form this new party together? I'd have to quit my job, but I daresay I could survive that.
    It sounds a great idea, but when standing up for the lazy, how could anyone have the effort to lead? Quite the conundrum.
    I think someone like Bad Janet from The Good Place would make a good leader of your party.
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    So income tax changes for 2019/20
    Half average earnings (£14k) saving £130 pa
    Average earnings (£28k) saving £130 pa
    Twice average earnings (£56k) (97th centile) saving £860 pa

    Well austerity might be over for a few
    @Conservatives for the few not the many

    What a spectacularly silly post.
    So Richard do tell me the error in these figures. With the huge (and unnecessary) increase in the 40% threshhold anyone over £46k will benefit much more from the income tax changes.
    The error is that no-one remotely sane would cherry-pick one just one tax/benefit to analyse the distributional effect of a budget.
    There are many of us who just pay tax and NI and receive no benefits.
    Not on £14K, generally.
    A single person with no savings and no children will not get any Universal Credit at £14k.
    There is obviously a gap in the political market for a party to stand up for "lazy single people" since every other party tries to cater for "hard working families".
    They’d get my vote...
This discussion has been closed.