"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
I always quite like this. The 'Company' awarded its directors.... given the company is a legal fiction, who exactly awarded the two directors these bonuses? If it wasn't the shareholders, it can only have been the two directors.
Why don't they just say 'The directors wrote themselves a massive cheque and didn't tell anyone about it'?
Doesn’t say much for the accountants, either. IMHO. One of the ‘Big Four’ I believe.
Grant Thornton. It raises questions about the company’s in-house legal advisors and external lawyers and HR department, assuming they were informed. And if they weren’t, that raises a whole heap of other interesting questions.
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
LOL, and on here they claim we will be in charge of our own waters. Scottish Fishing fleet raped and pillaged yet again for sure, you begin to wonder if they actually like it.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
I always quite like this. The 'Company' awarded its directors.... given the company is a legal fiction, who exactly awarded the two directors these bonuses? If it wasn't the shareholders, it can only have been the two directors.
Why don't they just say 'The directors wrote themselves a massive cheque and didn't tell anyone about it'?
Doesn’t say much for the accountants, either. IMHO. One of the ‘Big Four’ I believe.
Grant Thornton. It raises questions about the company’s in-house legal advisors and external lawyers and HR department, assuming they were informed. And if they weren’t, that raises a whole heap of other interesting questions.
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Not so sure, even as someone who leans towards socialism, that in the short-term capitalism has the credibility problem that accountancy has. Especially firms that operate in the City!
Out of interest, what was the EPC figure? I think I have one E and all the rest are Cs or Ds; it is mainly old stock in good condition and properly renovated / ventilated.
E - though I thought that was illegal to let now...?
No. It is Fs and Gs from April 2018, and Es from April 2025.
One issue they have got (which will become more serious) is that their chosen measurement system - EPCs - is, in significant measure, a pile of crap. It works after a fashion for traditionally built houses and crude distinction (eg F vs C), but eg takes no account of air leakage which is where perhaps 20% of your heating losses occur.
They are also required to make worst-case assumptions where there is no specific evidence, eg my E house was largely dry-lined 40 years ago but I was not about to start drilling holes in walls in order to prove it in the middle of a 10 year tenancy, so it was assessed as "sold brick, as built, no insulation (assumed)".
When it comes to 2025 I can finesse the extra couple of points needed by putting a shower heat recovery device in, which does well under the current definition. In that property the heating bills are half what they were in 2010.
The defnition is also used politically as a policy tool - the current definition spanks anything with storage heaters, which are a perfectly sensible solution in electric-only properties built to good standards. Your brand new passive house which uses hardly any energy at all may come out with a C, whilst your horrible cold house with a large solar array could come out with a better number.
One story to watch for with the next English Housing Survey is that Owner Occupied will now be the slum sector, since the Fs and Gs in private rental (about 5%) will have been significantly improved (according to EPC) or left the sector. Currently PRS and OO are the same average EPC figure. The press will not cover it, though.
I wish more landlords took good tenants over a few extra quid!
I think it is more than you may think - usually tenant satisfaction in the PRS is as good as or higher than in the Social Sector on some measures, despite the non-subsidised rents, and the stock quality is massively higher than it was 20 years ago.
People in 5 or 10 year long-tenancies where they are satisfied are not the squeaky wheel, and do not serve to help political attacks.
The economy is often pivotal eg 1979, 1987, 2001, 2010, 1974 but not always, for example even if the economy is doing well if the mood is for change and the opposition is electable it will not save the incumbent party eg 1997 while even if it is bad the government can win if the opposition is seen as worse eg 1992
The economy was growing in 97 because the government had previously taken it into the abyss and was not forgiven. It’s like losing your job, your house and then claiming a triumph because you found £5.
The Tories in 1997 left low inflation, low unemployment and a growing economy but yes the 1993 ERM crash legacy and negative equity and high interest rates were still a bad memory for many
What cost the Tories was the public squalor - an NHS in its knees, school buildings in a state of collapse, etc - and a general sense of decay after 18 years. A credible opposition made the choice easy for voters. If only we had one now.
Voters don’t do gratitude. They look for who has solutions to the challenges of the next 5 years. Squalor is an exaggeration but the Major Government simply woke up far too late to the point voters wanted much more investment in health and education.
There were a whole host of reasons why the Tories lost in 1997 but, just as crucially, why New Labour won it as well.
LOL, and on here they claim we will be in charge of our own waters. Scottish Fishing fleet raped and pillaged yet again for sure, you begin to wonder if they actually like it.
He did not actually say that, according to the report.
A man with silver tongue. Looks like soothing until a real conversation post-Brexit.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
It sounds like this has all cost chairman (I presume founder?) Luke Johnson a packet. He should probably make the investigation independent not keep it in house though.
Not the founder. He invested into it when it was 8 branches. It has cost him. And may cost more. He is executive chairman so questions will need to be asked of him too.
Absolutely right on the investigation point. There are multiple strands to any investigation:-
1. A quick and dirty to find out the extent of the problem. Necessary to make sure the company makes the right disclosures on time now to the market/shareholders. 2. To find out who needs to be suspended / disciplined. How will that impact on other formal investigations? Will they be witnesses or targets? What are the company’s obligations re insurance / indemnification / separate legal representation? 3. Dealing with external investigations: from the SFO, the FCA. The company has legal obligations to the market which it may have been in breach of. Could it face criminal legal action not just some of its employees? 4. Dealing with the possibility of civil legal action against it. 5. A more in depth investigation to understand not just what happened but why, the underlying reasons - systems, policies and procedures,training etc so that remediation measures can be put in train. How long has the fraud been happening? Adoboli was convicted for a fraud in 2011 but he had been committing fraud since 2008. Accounting irregularities at Patisserie Valerie did not, I will guess, start a few weeks ago. 6. Did others know? Did they speak up? If not, why not? How did this issue come to light? A whistleblower? How is that person being protected? 7. What action may be available to the company against its advisors?
Then there is dealing with the press, with shareholders, with staff who will be worried, with suppliers etc.
Lots of different aspects to be dealt with. Not a job for amateurs.
1) It's a sheep, not a goat 2) It might be a Swaledale, but the legs are the wrong colour 3) So I think it's a Scottish Blackface, which fits the area. 4) Don't hate me if it's wrong (scurries away and hides)
D'y'know, a lot of energy has been expended over the past years on PB on nationalism. It usually devolves into arguments between those who think England should be ruled by Brussels, the Anglosphere, the Commonwealth, or Edinburgh/Dublin/whatever. But this is a sheep. It's one of the most British animals ever. You can bang on about robins and adders, but they're pretty rare. They're ubiquitous outside large towns and they're the most docile creatures imaginable. I can't criticise that person for killing the sheep, since I'm partial to a lamb sandwich myself. But hunting one? Lord, what is the world coming to...
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
I cannot reveal all I know. But you would be wrong to assume that there was no criminal behaviour in the events which led to RBS’s collapse. You would be right to ask why, if that were the case, no action has been taken.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
I always quite like this. The 'Company' awarded its directors.... given the company is a legal fiction, who exactly awarded the two directors these bonuses? If it wasn't the shareholders, it can only have been the two directors.
Why don't they just say 'The directors wrote themselves a massive cheque and didn't tell anyone about it'?
Doesn’t say much for the accountants, either. IMHO. One of the ‘Big Four’ I believe.
Grant Thornton. It raises questions about the company’s in-house legal advisors and external lawyers and HR department, assuming they were informed. And if they weren’t, that raises a whole heap of other interesting questions.
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
People think auditors know how to ask penetrating questions and look at the reality of what is happening. At the risk of annoying any auditors on here, in my experience, they don’t. They are very good at looking at all the boxes that need to be ticked and asking whether they have been ticked. But that is not enough, especially not if the FInance Director is the one doing the bad stuff. They get their instructions from him, rely on information from him and have to rely on assurances that he and the other directors give.
LGoing to be a terrible day for Tesla shorters lol
I suspect there will be a small bounce in tech stocks generally after yesterdays big drops, but generally the shorters of everything have had a good month. My ISA less so, even though I took a pretty defensive position this summer.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
I always quite like this. The 'Company' awarded its directors.... given the company is a legal fiction, who exactly awarded the two directors these bonuses? If it wasn't the shareholders, it can only have been the two directors.
Why don't they just say 'The directors wrote themselves a massive cheque and didn't tell anyone about it'?
Doesn’t say much for the accountants, either. IMHO. One of the ‘Big Four’ I believe.
Grant Thornton. It raises questions about the company’s in-house legal advisors and external lawyers and HR department, assuming they were informed. And if they weren’t, that raises a whole heap of other interesting questions.
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
People think auditors know how to ask penetrating questions and look at the reality of what is happening. At the risk of annoying any auditors on here, in my experience, they don’t. They are very good at looking at all the boxes that need to be ticked and asking whether they have been ticked. But that is not enough, especially not if the FInance Director is the one doing the bad stuff. They get their instructions from him, rely on information from him and have to rely on assurances that he and the other directors give.
Better to have a convincing fraud plan rather than make a material error in the accounts...
Strange story. Very little data supplied, but the Guardian's yield calculation of 8% is gross, depends on a rent figure from heaven knows where (single data point?), excludes agency fees (10% + VAT usually) and service charge, and bases their valuation on the sale of a single flat in 2013 (the only one on record).
6-6.5% net if they were lucky with zero initial investment and zero maintenance. For an ex-Council flat in Toxteth? Not so much of a cash cow, I suspect.
Equally strange that the chap accused of mismanaging it all has now been granted Licenses for those flats with him as manager.
Nor are any of the charges specifically identified, or the flats that were the subject of them - so we cannot check. So much for "data journalism".
And the MP comments from eg Frank Field: "This is not just an isolated case. We have therefore got to build up an armoury to protect tenants in the weakest position. That includes withholding housing benefit from landlords and withdrawing their right to own and manage the property. Is it so shocking that these people should lose control over their property?"
As far as I am aware, those powers have been in place for quite a few years already.
The basic issue here is that the LL and Lettings Agent were not compliant with the the existing framework of the law by not having a license, so suggesting that that shows the law to be inadequate is a bit of a red herring. If anything this shows that it works.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
A better example would be the Secretary General of the Uzbek SSR, who until Andropov had him shot made a million roubles a day in bribes.
The thing is though, that was then, this is now. Capitalism can't afford to be complacent. It is a better system than any other, in all key ways. But does it feel that way to somebody struggling to meet mortgage payments while - for example - Fred the Shred keeps two million pound houses and allegedly three families on the go?
It's worryingly easy to see how they could fail to be convinced and start thinking the said nutters have a point, because when it comes to criticism of the excesses of pseudo-capitalism they do. That's not to say their solutions would be better or more meaningful or less corrupt, merely that in the eyes of onlookers they are not imminent, demonstrable failures.
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
People think auditors know how to ask penetrating questions and look at the reality of what is happening. At the risk of annoying any auditors on here, in my experience, they don’t. They are very good at looking at all the boxes that need to be ticked and asking whether they have been ticked. But that is not enough, especially not if the FInance Director is the one doing the bad stuff. They get their instructions from him, rely on information from him and have to rely on assurances that he and the other directors give.
Competence is one thing. But I'm also worried about the conflicts of interest.
This FT story had some choice examples and summarises: "Some admit there even may be a case for the Dutch model, where accounting firms are not allowed to do any consulting work for audit clients. That is a rule even auditors with an Oxbridge degree and a professional qualification might be able to grasp."
I also enjoyed this from the chairman of KPMG UK: “We are an oligopoly – that is undeniable…I can’t believe the industry will be the same [in the future]. We have to reduce the level of conflicts and…demonstrate why they are manageable and why the public and all stakeholders should trust us.”
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
A better example would be the Secretary General of the Uzbek SSR, who until Andropov had him shot made a million roubles a day in bribes.
The thing is though, that was then, this is now. Capitalism can't afford to be complacent. It is a better system than any other, in all key ways. But does it feel that way to somebody struggling to meet mortgage payments while - for example - Fred the Shred keeps two million pound houses and allegedly three families on the go?
It's worryingly easy to see how they could fail to be convinced and start thinking the said nutters have a point, because when it comes to criticism of the excesses of pseudo-capitalism they do. That's not to say their solutions would be better or more meaningful or less corrupt, merely that in the eyes of onlookers they are not imminent, demonstrable failures.
Ironically if the system was actually properly truly truly ultimately capitalist, Fred would be worth £0.00 or considerably less I think...
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
People think auditors know how to ask penetrating questions and look at the reality of what is happening. At the risk of annoying any auditors on here, in my experience, they don’t. They are very good at looking at all the boxes that need to be ticked and asking whether they have been ticked. But that is not enough, especially not if the FInance Director is the one doing the bad stuff. They get their instructions from him, rely on information from him and have to rely on assurances that he and the other directors give.
Competence is one thing. But I'm also worried about the conflicts of interest.
This FT story had some choice examples and summarises: "Some admit there even may be a case for the Dutch model, where accounting firms are not allowed to do any consulting work for audit clients. That is a rule even auditors with an Oxbridge degree and a professional qualification might be able to grasp."
I also enjoyed this from the chairman of KPMG UK: “We are an oligopoly – that is undeniable…I can’t believe the industry will be the same [in the future]. We have to reduce the level of conflicts and…demonstrate why they are manageable and why the public and all stakeholders should trust us.”
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
I do think that a wave of left wing populism will be the next big thing as right wing populism burns itself out.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
I always quite like this. The 'Company' awarded its directors.... given the company is a legal fiction, who exactly awarded the two directors these bonuses? If it wasn't the shareholders, it can only have been the two directors.
Why don't they just say 'The directors wrote themselves a massive cheque and didn't tell anyone about it'?
Doesn’t say much for the accountants, either. IMHO. One of the ‘Big Four’ I believe.
Grant Thornton. It raises questions about the company’s in-house legal advisors and external lawyers and HR department, assuming they were informed. And if they weren’t, that raises a whole heap of other interesting questions.
I see they recently chucked their CEO for crazy socialist ideas like profit sharing among staff rather than merely among partners.
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
People think auditors know how to ask penetrating questions and look at the reality of what is happening. At the risk of annoying any auditors on here, in my experience, they don’t. They are very good at looking at all the boxes that need to be ticked and asking whether they have been ticked. But that is not enough, especially not if the FInance Director is the one doing the bad stuff. They get their instructions from him, rely on information from him and have to rely on assurances that he and the other directors give.
Better to have a convincing fraud plan rather than make a material error in the accounts...
One obvious question to be asked is who had authority over those bank accounts with the large overdraft facilities? One person? That’s a pretty basic failing / red flag right there? Two? Complicity then?
And what questions were the banks asking? Were those overdraft facilities secured? That doesn’t just happen with one man doing everything.
A listed company is expected to have a properly run finance department, which means more than one man.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
I do think that a wave of left wing populism will be the next big thing as right wing populism burns itself out.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
Capitalism certainly needs a reset. A significant one.
I am surprised that the left has been so poor at capitalising on what has gone wrong. Possibly because it has allied itself with some of the developments which have annoyed people. And continues to do so. That may prove to be a brake on its populist appeal. Some on the left seem to despise the people.
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
I do think that a wave of left wing populism will be the next big thing as right wing populism burns itself out.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
Capitalism certainly needs a reset. A significant one.
I am surprised that the left has been so poor at capitalising on what has gone wrong. Possibly because it has allied itself with some of the developments which have annoyed people. And continues to do so. That may prove to be a brake on its populist appeal. Some on the left seem to despise the people.
But you may be right.
I think that the central planning and nationalisation of the 1940's is the wrong answer, but that seems to be McDonnell's alternative.
Personally, I think we need a more bottom up system of organisation, and the modern IT world permits that. Probably the most important role of the state would be the breaking up of monopolies that crush valid alternatives.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
I do think that a wave of left wing populism will be the next big thing as right wing populism burns itself out.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
I think there has been a wave already, but it hasn't been significant enough to actually lead to left-wing politicians taking power.
Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn, Podemos all have done better than people would have expected 5-10 years ago without doing well enough to take power. There are exceptions like Greece and Mexico...
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
A better example would be the Secretary General of the Uzbek SSR, who until Andropov had him shot made a million roubles a day in bribes.
The thing is though, that was then, this is now. Capitalism can't afford to be complacent. It is a better system than any other, in all key ways. But does it feel that way to somebody struggling to meet mortgage payments while - for example - Fred the Shred keeps two million pound houses and allegedly three families on the go?
It's worryingly easy to see how they could fail to be convinced and start thinking the said nutters have a point, because when it comes to criticism of the excesses of pseudo-capitalism they do. That's not to say their solutions would be better or more meaningful or less corrupt, merely that in the eyes of onlookers they are not imminent, demonstrable failures.
Oh I agree. There have been far too many people at the top rewarded for their failures. I can think of at least one CEO, whose entity while he was in charge was involved in Britain’s biggest criminal fraud and two of the worst market manipulation schemes, who then went on to be appointed CEO at a leading stock exchange , which is also a regulator, left there with questions raised about some share-dealing he indulged in, and is now Chairman of an FCA authorised investment firm run by someone with a similarly dubious record.
What the hell are the authorities thinking allowing such people to operate? It’s not as if they don’t know /haven’t been told.
Too bloody feeble. No wonder people lose faith. No wonder those who try to do their jobs honestly feel disheartened, feel like mugs for being honest.
Honestly, don’t get me started on this! I could rage about this all day.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
I do think that a wave of left wing populism will be the next big thing as right wing populism burns itself out.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
I think there has been a wave already, but it hasn't been significant enough to actually lead to left-wing politicians taking power.
Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn, Podemos all have done better than people would have expected 5-10 years ago without doing well enough to take power. There are exceptions like Greece and Mexico...
Not impossible Sanders could be President and Corbyn PM too in a few years time on current polls
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
A better example would be the Secretary General of the Uzbek SSR, who until Andropov had him shot made a million roubles a day in bribes.
The thing is though, that was then, this is now. Capitalism can't afford to be complacent. It is a better system than any other, in all key ways. But does it feel that way to somebody struggling to meet mortgage payments while - for example - Fred the Shred keeps two million pound houses and allegedly three families on the go?
It's worryingly easy to see how they could fail to be convinced and start thinking the said nutters have a point, because when it comes to criticism of the excesses of pseudo-capitalism they do. That's not to say their solutions would be better or more meaningful or less corrupt, merely that in the eyes of onlookers they are not imminent, demonstrable failures.
Ironically if the system was actually properly truly truly ultimately capitalist, Fred would be worth £0.00 or considerably less I think...
The US of course let Lehmans go bust and tends to take a tougher line with white collar criminals too
The economy is often pivotal eg 1979, 1987, 2001, 2010, 1974 but not always, for example even if the economy is doing well if the mood is for change and the opposition is electable it will not save the incumbent party eg 1997 while even if it is bad the government can win if the opposition is seen as worse eg 1992
The economy was growing in 97 because the government had previously taken it into the abyss and was not forgiven. It’s like losing your job, your house and then claiming a triumph because you found £5.
The Tories in 1997 left low inflation, low unemployment and a growing economy but yes the 1993 ERM crash legacy and negative equity and high interest rates were still a bad memory for many
What cost the Tories was the public squalor - an NHS in its knees, school buildings in a state of collapse, etc - and a general sense of decay after 18 years. A credible opposition made the choice easy for voters. If only we had one now.
True but to be fair to Major he had increased investment in public services over the last year's of the Thatcher government and after winning in 1992 he could only stretch the elastic so far
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
Not impossible Sanders could be President and Corbyn PM too in a few years time on current polls
Unlikely I think. Corbyn about 30% chance. Sanders I think is probably too old to run, but I wouldn't be that surprised to see a similarly left-wing candidate win in 2020. Together they would really shake up Western foreign policy!
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
I cannot reveal all I know. But you would be wrong to assume that there was no criminal behaviour in the events which led to RBS’s collapse. You would be right to ask why, if that were the case, no action has been taken.
while PB was having its Brexit meltdown yesterday I spent my time watching the BBC programme on the collapse of RBS. Its still on iPlayer. worth watching if you didnt catch it when broadcast.
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
The EU is also as unpopular in Italy and Greece as it is in the Czech Republic and most unpopular of all outside the UK in Cyprus.
It looks like central and southern Europe is where the EU faces its biggest opposition, northern Europe beyond the UK is actually pretty EUphile
And then people wonder why capitalism has a credibility problem at the moment and nutters like Macdonnell or Tsipras gain traction.
Because of course there is never any fraud or corruption or dodgy accounting under socialism or in state run entities or in governments or by socialists.
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
A better example would be the Secretary General of the Uzbek SSR, who until Andropov had him shot made a million roubles a day in bribes.
The thing is though, that was then, this is now. Capitalism can't afford to be complacent. It is a better system than any other, in all key ways. But does it feel that way to somebody struggling to meet mortgage payments while - for example - Fred the Shred keeps two million pound houses and allegedly three families on the go?
It's worryingly easy to see how they could fail to be convinced and start thinking the said nutters have a point, because when it comes to criticism of the excesses of pseudo-capitalism they do. That's not to say their solutions would be better or more meaningful or less corrupt, merely that in the eyes of onlookers they are not imminent, demonstrable failures.
Ironically if the system was actually properly truly truly ultimately capitalist, Fred would be worth £0.00 or considerably less I think...
The US of course let Lehmans go bust and tends to take a tougher line with white collar criminals too
That goes only so far. None of the US banks involved in LIBOR manipulation - and they were in it up to their necks - got their collars felt by the DOJ. The US guns were carefully pointed away from their own. There was comment about this at the time. Even in enforcement countries will seek the competitive advantage.
Not impossible Sanders could be President and Corbyn PM too in a few years time on current polls
Unlikely I think. Corbyn about 30% chance. Sanders I think is probably too old to run, but I wouldn't be that surprised to see a similarly left-wing candidate win in 2020. Together they would really shake up Western foreign policy!
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
On current UK polling Corbyn could be PM with SNP confidence and supply and LD support on key legislation and on current US polling both Sanders and Warren would beat Trump.
Interesting to see even Trump toughening his line on Saudi Arabia last night
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
I cannot reveal all I know. But you would be wrong to assume that there was no criminal behaviour in the events which led to RBS’s collapse. You would be right to ask why, if that were the case, no action has been taken.
while PB was having its Brexit meltdown yesterday I spent my time watching the BBC programme on the collapse of RBS. Its still on iPlayer. worth watching if you didnt catch it when broadcast.
Thanks. The full story - much more interesting - has yet to be told.
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
It's not much of a stretch to observe other mammals feeding their young as human babies feed from their mothers.
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
It's not much of a stretch to observe other mammals feeding their young as human babies feed from their mothers.
Still a leap to decide to try it out - it's not like we leap at the chance to drink dog milk.
I've always been fascinated by how we discovered things like yoghurt and yeast.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
Capitalism certainly needs a reset. A significant one.
I am surprised that the left has been so poor at capitalising on what has gone wrong. Possibly because it has allied itself with some of the developments which have annoyed people. And continues to do so. That may prove to be a brake on its populist appeal. Some on the left seem to despise the people.
But you may be right.
I think that the central planning and nationalisation of the 1940's is the wrong answer, but that seems to be McDonnell's alternative.
Personally, I think we need a more bottom up system of organisation, and the modern IT world permits that. Probably the most important role of the state would be the breaking up of monopolies that crush valid alternatives.
The Left has been on the defensive for a long time and for much of that time also from its own side from the Third Way. I think this has something to do with why the policies on offer from what passes for the radical Left are not particularly radical. They are rooted in the (lost) defensive battles of the 70s, 80s and 90s.
This is a weird time for a budget. In a relatively shortly time the government will know whether they have a deal, whether they have a transition period or whether no deal is going to be possible in which event whether there will be mini deals to keep things moving. Each of these outcomes has a modest impact on the economy, will affect the tax take and will have important consequences for government spending priorities.
Despite May’s unwise proclamation that austerity is over I expect exceptionally large contingencies to absorb a significant part of the additional money Hammond has from the OBR forecasts leaving extra money for the NHS already promised, a bit extra for public sector pay and, in practical terms, bugger all else. In a month it might have been different one way or another. The budget should have been postponed.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
It's not much of a stretch to observe other mammals feeding their young as human babies feed from their mothers.
Still a leap to decide to try it out - it's not like we leap at the chance to drink dog milk.
I've always been fascinated by how we discovered things like yoghurt and yeast.
I don't know that it's much of a leap if you are living in a world that is much closer to these animals to start with. Humans that didn't buy their meat pre-cut from supermarkets didn't think themselves so different from the animals around them. It might feel weird to us, but would it have felt weird to them?
Bearing in mind that a lot of humans in the UK find the breastfeeding of human babies to be weird I don't think we are a good judge of this.
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
The Saudis have killed tens of thousands in Yemen already and are using famine as a weapon to threaten hundreds of thousands more. It is a bit odd that we get our knickers in a twist about the chopping up of one of their own citizens just because he occasionally wrote for the Washington Post.
Oh I agree. There have been far too many people at the top rewarded for their failures. I can think of at least one CEO, whose entity while he was in charge was involved in Britain’s biggest criminal fraud and two of the worst market manipulation schemes, who then went on to be appointed CEO at a leading stock exchange , which is also a regulator, left there with questions raised about some share-dealing he indulged in, and is now Chairman of an FCA authorised investment firm run by someone with a similarly dubious record.
What the hell are the authorities thinking allowing such people to operate? It’s not as if they don’t know /haven’t been told.
Too bloody feeble. No wonder people lose faith. No wonder those who try to do their jobs honestly feel disheartened, feel like mugs for being honest.
Honestly, don’t get me started on this! I could rage about this all day.
Please feel free to rage all day - it will continue the "PB Rage Day" theme of yesterday (which I found highly entertaining BTW)
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
The Saudis have killed tens of thousands in Yemen already and are using famine as a weapon to threaten hundreds of thousands more. It is a bit odd that we get our knickers in a twist about the chopping up of one of their own citizens just because he occasionally wrote for the Washington Post.
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
The Saudis have killed tens of thousands in Yemen already and are using famine as a weapon to threaten hundreds of thousands more. It is a bit odd that we get our knickers in a twist about the chopping up of one of their own citizens just because he occasionally wrote for the Washington Post.
It's a consequence of what makes the news. As Dura Ace notes - Corbyn has been opposing arms sales to the Saudis well before the Khashoggi case.
Oh I agree. There have been far too many people at the top rewarded for their failures. I can think of at least one CEO, whose entity while he was in charge was involved in Britain’s biggest criminal fraud and two of the worst market manipulation schemes, who then went on to be appointed CEO at a leading stock exchange , which is also a regulator, left there with questions raised about some share-dealing he indulged in, and is now Chairman of an FCA authorised investment firm run by someone with a similarly dubious record.
What the hell are the authorities thinking allowing such people to operate? It’s not as if they don’t know /haven’t been told.
Too bloody feeble. No wonder people lose faith. No wonder those who try to do their jobs honestly feel disheartened, feel like mugs for being honest.
Honestly, don’t get me started on this! I could rage about this all day.
Please feel free to rage all day - it will continue the "PB Rage Day" theme of yesterday (which I found highly entertaining BTW)
Mrs C I'm married to an emotional remain voting mathematician who works in IT. I come here to get away from all that :-)
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
The Saudis have killed tens of thousands in Yemen already and are using famine as a weapon to threaten hundreds of thousands more. It is a bit odd that we get our knickers in a twist about the chopping up of one of their own citizens just because he occasionally wrote for the Washington Post.
It's a consequence of what makes the news. As Dura Ace notes - Corbyn has been opposing arms sales to the Saudis well before the Khashoggi case.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
"Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine"
What other type of milk is there?
And if it's ok for the offspring of the producing animal to drink it, why is it not ok for anyone else to drink it?
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
dairy is quite recent in human history and is largely a westen thing, weve built a tolerance for it over the last 5000 years or so. From memory the Irish are the most lactose tolerant people on the planet.
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
I cannot reveal all I know. But you would be wrong to assume that there was no criminal behaviour in the events which led to RBS’s collapse. You would be right to ask why, if that were the case, no action has been taken.
while PB was having its Brexit meltdown yesterday I spent my time watching the BBC programme on the collapse of RBS. Its still on iPlayer. worth watching if you didnt catch it when broadcast.
I watched it last week - highly recommended. I wonder if, having watched it, anyone can seriously suggest HMG could have let RBS (and HBOS) go to the wall?
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
"Troubled UK café chain Patisserie Valerie on Wednesday revealed it had awarded millions of pounds of share bonuses to its two top executives without notifying shareholders.
Half of the undisclosed awards were exercised by Paul May, chief executive, and Chris Marsh, finance director, just three months before the fast-growing group suspended its shares after uncovering “significant, and potentially fraudulent” accounting irregularities. The two made £1.7m in profits on the sale of those options, exercised on July 20."
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. This is a different kettle of fish to a company that goes bankrupt quickly due to a collapse in intangibles say due a complete loss of confidence in the product. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
I cannot reveal all I know. But you would be wrong to assume that there was no criminal behaviour in the events which led to RBS’s collapse. You would be right to ask why, if that were the case, no action has been taken.
while PB was having its Brexit meltdown yesterday I spent my time watching the BBC programme on the collapse of RBS. Its still on iPlayer. worth watching if you didnt catch it when broadcast.
I watched it last week - highly recommended. I wonder if, having watched it, anyone can seriously suggest HMG could have let RBS (and HBOS) go to the wall?
No, but they could have prosecuted the perpetrators. As the programme noted the bankers getting off scot free is still a toxic legacy which hangs over the economy.
The reason for the kerfuffle is that Khashoggi was a journalist so that makes him far more important than a normal person. They write the news, but they also believe they make the news.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
dairy is quite recent in human history and is largely a westen thing, weve built a tolerance for it over the last 5000 years or so. From memory the Irish are the most lactose tolerant people on the planet.
Well, that's handy!
I once watched a pair of Japanese tourists who had got horribly lost and ended up in a Dundee University cafeteria at breakfast, being bullied by the hulking form of a local "waitress" into having "Rice Crispies? RICE CRISPIES???"
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
How about human babies drinking their mother's milk? You can't be a lifetime vegan.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
How about human babies drinking their mother's milk? You can't be a lifetime vegan.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
It's not much of a stretch to observe other mammals feeding their young as human babies feed from their mothers.
Still a leap to decide to try it out - it's not like we leap at the chance to drink dog milk.
I've always been fascinated by how we discovered things like yoghurt and yeast.
I'd imagine being much, MUCH less squeamish about food that gone off, gone a strange colour, gone a bit 'funny' probably helped.
My gran from the Isle of Lewis used to tell stories about how her mother would flick maggots off the remains of the Sunday roast before serving it up on Tues, Weds, Thurs etc.
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
Well, while he's (rightly) busy condemning the Saudis perhaps he could also condemn these unpleasant guys, over whom one might expect he might have the teensiest bit more influence than over the Saudis.
Or are human rights abuses by your friends acceptable? In which case, he's no different from May or Blair or any of the other British PMs who sucked up to the repellent Saudis.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
"Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine"
What other type of milk is there?
And if it's ok for the offspring of the producing animal to drink it, why is it not ok for anyone else to drink it?
Westerners have developed an enzyme that can digest milk. So, presumably have Masai and similar. However peoples who haven’t got that, who’s ancestors didn’t try milk at some ;point 10 or so thousand years ago, can't
Interesting that on that poll the EU is actually less popular in Hungary than it is here, and barely more popular in Czecha and Austria.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
ITALY - is currently the most Eurosceptic of all atm
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
Mr. Divvie, aye. Centuries past, parents never had to tell their kids to finish their meals, because there was often not enough foods and the children learnt pretty sharpish that eating everything was essential.
Oh I agree. There have been far too many people at the top rewarded for their failures. I can think of at least one CEO, whose entity while he was in charge was involved in Britain’s biggest criminal fraud and two of the worst market manipulation schemes, who then went on to be appointed CEO at a leading stock exchange , which is also a regulator, left there with questions raised about some share-dealing he indulged in, and is now Chairman of an FCA authorised investment firm run by someone with a similarly dubious record.
What the hell are the authorities thinking allowing such people to operate? It’s not as if they don’t know /haven’t been told.
Too bloody feeble. No wonder people lose faith. No wonder those who try to do their jobs honestly feel disheartened, feel like mugs for being honest.
Honestly, don’t get me started on this! I could rage about this all day.
Please feel free to rage all day - it will continue the "PB Rage Day" theme of yesterday (which I found highly entertaining BTW)
Mrs C I'm married to an emotional remain voting mathematician who works in IT
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
"Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine"
What other type of milk is there?
And if it's ok for the offspring of the producing animal to drink it, why is it not ok for anyone else to drink it?
Westerners have developed an enzyme that can digest milk. So, presumably have Masai and similar. However peoples who haven’t got that, who’s ancestors didn’t try milk at some ;point 10 or so thousand years ago, can't
The reason for the kerfuffle is that Khashoggi was a journalist so that makes him far more important than a normal person. They write the news, but they also believe they make the news.
Just look how much time BBC News spends on BBC issues
Germans faced with much larger bill to finance EU when UK leaves. Government says €10bn but €15bn nearer the mark. France and Ireland also hit with bigger bills.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
It's not much of a stretch to observe other mammals feeding their young as human babies feed from their mothers.
Still a leap to decide to try it out - it's not like we leap at the chance to drink dog milk.
I've always been fascinated by how we discovered things like yoghurt and yeast.
I'd imagine being much, MUCH less squeamish about food that gone off, gone a strange colour, gone a bit 'funny' probably helped.
My gran from the Isle of Lewis used to tell stories about how her mother would flick maggots off the remains of the Sunday roast before serving it up on Tues, Weds, Thurs etc.
I’ve eaten deep-fried maggots. In Thailand. Bit like tastier pork scratchings.
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It's not going to happen here. May would die on a cross for the House of Saud.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
The Saudis have killed tens of thousands in Yemen already and are using famine as a weapon to threaten hundreds of thousands more. It is a bit odd that we get our knickers in a twist about the chopping up of one of their own citizens just because he occasionally wrote for the Washington Post.
What's odd is that our government won't get past a slight twisted gusset about either, & implicitly gives aid & succour in the prosecution to the former.
Oh I agree. There have been far too many people at the top rewarded for their failures. I can think of at least one CEO, whose entity while he was in charge was involved in Britain’s biggest criminal fraud and two of the worst market manipulation schemes, who then went on to be appointed CEO at a leading stock exchange , which is also a regulator, left there with questions raised about some share-dealing he indulged in, and is now Chairman of an FCA authorised investment firm run by someone with a similarly dubious record.
What the hell are the authorities thinking allowing such people to operate? It’s not as if they don’t know /haven’t been told.
Too bloody feeble. No wonder people lose faith. No wonder those who try to do their jobs honestly feel disheartened, feel like mugs for being honest.
Honestly, don’t get me started on this! I could rage about this all day.
Please feel free to rage all day - it will continue the "PB Rage Day" theme of yesterday (which I found highly entertaining BTW)
Mrs C I'm married to an emotional remain voting mathematician who works in IT
That'll learn yer....
Amazingly she thinks I can be difficult, I mean where does she get that from ?
If one of these two doesn't go to jail, well no-one ever will. Or perhaps (maybe in addition) I'd hope the shareholders would be able to go after these directors personally. Heads NEED to roll on this one, it is worse than RBS I think.
I know about RBS. I doubt this is worse. But it does look like a mess and I can think of a number of potential criminal offences which may have been committed.
Odd decision for the company to carry out its own internal investigation. Unless they have good experienced in-house investigators (something I doubt). I assume they are using a law firm but who is doing the in-house work? They will be potentially conflicted. As will the directors they are reporting to.
Lots more to come out I suspect.
RBS had a massively complicated balance sheet though, this is shops, suppliers, cakes and cash. Whilst complexity is no excuse in RBS case and the scale of this is lower it looks worse to me ... The actions look clearly more fraudulent than even The shred !
I cannot reveal all I know. But you would be wrong to assume that there was no criminal behaviour in the events which led to RBS’s collapse. You would be right to ask why, if that were the case, no action has been taken.
while PB was having its Brexit meltdown yesterday I spent my time watching the BBC programme on the collapse of RBS. Its still on iPlayer. worth watching if you didnt catch it when broadcast.
I watched it last week - highly recommended. I wonder if, having watched it, anyone can seriously suggest HMG could have let RBS (and HBOS) go to the wall?
No, but they could have prosecuted the perpetrators. As the programme noted the bankers getting off scot free is still a toxic legacy which hangs over the economy.
The reason they didn't prosecute the people who were responsible for setting in motion the train of events which led to RBS's downfall (I am choosing my words carefully) is because the then regulator was utterly feeble and refused to carry out a proper investigation. It then carried out and published an investigation into the bank which conveniently started the chronology after the events I am referring to thus omitting its own inglorious part in the whole affair.
RBS's downfall could - and in a properly functioning regulatory system - should have been stopped 18 months earlier had those who were meant to be in charge done their jobs properly.
Bloody Metropolitan out-of-touch London elite again. With their namby-pamby inability to identify livestock.
I was an urban child, and vividly remember the teacher's fury when we were asked to spell the names of animals and I wrote "C-A-L-F" under a lamb. She was convinced I was winding her up, but at age 5 or so I'd never seen either one.
If I'd been asked to spell "pavement" I'd have been fine.
One of my colleagues aged about 40 did not understand where milk came from. Seriously.
I have often idly wondered about the first person to discover the milk of other animals as a source of nourishment. That's adventurousness bordering on the perverted.
So here's my question - where do vegans stand on calfs drinking their mother's milk?
Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine. And drinking milk as an adult foodstuff for adults is primarily a Western, and some African, thing. Other peoples, Japanese especially haven’t evolved the systems to deal with it, and can get ill if they drink it, and, IIRC, eat cheese and similar milk products.
"Breast (or udder) whatever milk is fine"
What other type of milk is there?
And if it's ok for the offspring of the producing animal to drink it, why is it not ok for anyone else to drink it?
Westerners have developed an enzyme that can digest milk. So, presumably have Masai and similar. However peoples who haven’t got that, who’s ancestors didn’t try milk at some ;point 10 or so thousand years ago, can't
And the vegan angle?
As far as I’m aware, as posted above. vegans, very sensibly, regard drinking naturally produced.... i.e for humans, breast...... milk as natural, although of course something for the child to be weaned off as it grows. AFAIK, few, if any, adult human communities regard breast milk as a ‘normal’ food. There be a few strange individuals or under odd circumstances...... lactating mother runs out of cows milk for tea for example, but they are exceptions.
The reason for the kerfuffle is that Khashoggi was a journalist so that makes him far more important than a normal person. They write the news, but they also believe they make the news.
It was also particularly gruesome. And Turkey ramped up the interest by releasing little bits of information every day.
I read somewhere that one reason Erdogan may have held back from telling everything in his speech to the Turkish parliament at the weekend is that he might be hoping to use this to extract money from the Saudis for Turkey's ailing economy.
What could possibly go wrong with the Saudis pumping money into an increasingly Islamist country on the edge of Europe?
Which reminds me, I started watching, some years ago, part of a series of Professor Brian Cox, but gave up after the first 15-20 minutes or so was devoted to the 'arrow of time'.
I know the past has happened and the future is ahead, and that cause precedes effect. I don't need to be reminded at length.
Comments
Many think Mrs May is not the right leader, but cannot see an obvious alternative at this stage of the Brexit negotiations."
https://news.sky.com/story/mps-are-in-despair-at-the-state-of-politics-johnny-mercer-only-said-what-others-are-thinking-11529960
Is there any point in these audits when they can be so wrong and the people auditing seem to have so many conflicts of interest?
One issue they have got (which will become more serious) is that their chosen measurement system - EPCs - is, in significant measure, a pile of crap. It works after a fashion for traditionally built houses and crude distinction (eg F vs C), but eg takes no account of air leakage which is where perhaps 20% of your heating losses occur.
They are also required to make worst-case assumptions where there is no specific evidence, eg my E house was largely dry-lined 40 years ago but I was not about to start drilling holes in walls in order to prove it in the middle of a 10 year tenancy, so it was assessed as "sold brick, as built, no insulation (assumed)".
When it comes to 2025 I can finesse the extra couple of points needed by putting a shower heat recovery device in, which does well under the current definition. In that property the heating bills are half what they were in 2010.
The defnition is also used politically as a policy tool - the current definition spanks anything with storage heaters, which are a perfectly sensible solution in electric-only properties built to good standards. Your brand new passive house which uses hardly any energy at all may come out with a C, whilst your horrible cold house with a large solar array could come out with a better number.
One story to watch for with the next English Housing Survey is that Owner Occupied will now be the slum sector, since the Fs and Gs in private rental (about 5%) will have been significantly improved (according to EPC) or left the sector. Currently PRS and OO are the same average EPC figure. The press will not cover it, though. I think it is more than you may think - usually tenant satisfaction in the PRS is as good as or higher than in the Social Sector on some measures, despite the non-subsidised rents, and the stock quality is massively higher than it was 20 years ago.
People in 5 or 10 year long-tenancies where they are satisfied are not the squeaky wheel, and do not serve to help political attacks.
There were a whole host of reasons why the Tories lost in 1997 but, just as crucially, why New Labour won it as well.
A man with silver tongue. Looks like soothing until a real conversation post-Brexit.
Absolutely right on the investigation point. There are multiple strands to any investigation:-
1. A quick and dirty to find out the extent of the problem. Necessary to make sure the company makes the right disclosures on time now to the market/shareholders.
2. To find out who needs to be suspended / disciplined. How will that impact on other formal investigations? Will they be witnesses or targets? What are the company’s obligations re insurance / indemnification / separate legal representation?
3. Dealing with external investigations: from the SFO, the FCA. The company has legal obligations to the market which it may have been in breach of. Could it face criminal legal action not just some of its employees?
4. Dealing with the possibility of civil legal action against it.
5. A more in depth investigation to understand not just what happened but why, the underlying reasons - systems, policies and procedures,training etc so that remediation measures can be put in train. How long has the fraud been happening? Adoboli was convicted for a fraud in 2011 but he had been committing fraud since 2008. Accounting irregularities at Patisserie Valerie did not, I will guess, start a few weeks ago.
6. Did others know? Did they speak up? If not, why not? How did this issue come to light? A whistleblower? How is that person being protected?
7. What action may be available to the company against its advisors?
Then there is dealing with the press, with shareholders, with staff who will be worried, with suppliers etc.
Lots of different aspects to be dealt with. Not a job for amateurs.
https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1055189761139314688?s=19
cough ** Greece ** ** Labour MPs convicted of fraud over expense claims ** cough
https://twitter.com/alextaylornews/status/1055040645482627073?s=21
6-6.5% net if they were lucky with zero initial investment and zero maintenance. For an ex-Council flat in Toxteth? Not so much of a cash cow, I suspect.
Equally strange that the chap accused of mismanaging it all has now been granted Licenses for those flats with him as manager.
Nor are any of the charges specifically identified, or the flats that were the subject of them - so we cannot check. So much for "data journalism".
And the MP comments from eg Frank Field:
"This is not just an isolated case. We have therefore got to build up an armoury to protect tenants in the weakest position. That includes withholding housing benefit from landlords and withdrawing their right to own and manage the property. Is it so shocking that these people should lose control over their property?"
As far as I am aware, those powers have been in place for quite a few years already.
The basic issue here is that the LL and Lettings Agent were not compliant with the the existing framework of the law by not having a license, so suggesting that that shows the law to be inadequate is a bit of a red herring. If anything this shows that it works.
All a bit bizarre.
https://twitter.com/Card5hark/status/1055047187128897536?s=19
The thing is though, that was then, this is now. Capitalism can't afford to be complacent. It is a better system than any other, in all key ways. But does it feel that way to somebody struggling to meet mortgage payments while - for example - Fred the Shred keeps two million pound houses and allegedly three families on the go?
It's worryingly easy to see how they could fail to be convinced and start thinking the said nutters have a point, because when it comes to criticism of the excesses of pseudo-capitalism they do. That's not to say their solutions would be better or more meaningful or less corrupt, merely that in the eyes of onlookers they are not imminent, demonstrable failures.
This FT story had some choice examples and summarises:
"Some admit there even may be a case for the Dutch model, where accounting firms are not allowed to do any consulting work for audit clients. That is a rule even auditors with an Oxbridge degree and a professional qualification might be able to grasp."
https://www.ft.com/content/5ec5718a-ab90-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c
I also enjoyed this from the chairman of KPMG UK:
“We are an oligopoly – that is undeniable…I can’t believe the industry will be the same [in the future]. We have to reduce the level of conflicts and…demonstrate why they are manageable and why the public and all stakeholders should trust us.”
https://www.consultancy.uk/news/17193/parliamentary-report-prompts-big-four-to-prepare-for-forced-break-up
I mean FFS - if these companies are publicly admitting even they think their industry is broken, when is the govt going to act!?!?
Interested to see in what way Hammond buggers up the Budget.
Given that polls have consistently underestimated dislike for the EU when measured against real world votes, those figures should cause panic in Brussels.
They won't, because they drift along in an alcoholic haze of complacency, but they should.
I'll get my coat. Have a good day.
Its hard to defend the state of world capitalism at the moment.
And what questions were the banks asking? Were those overdraft facilities secured? That doesn’t just happen with one man doing everything.
A listed company is expected to have a properly run finance department, which means more than one man.
And so on.
I am surprised that the left has been so poor at capitalising on what has gone wrong. Possibly because it has allied itself with some of the developments which have annoyed people. And continues to do so. That may prove to be a brake on its populist appeal. Some on the left seem to despise the people.
But you may be right.
Personally, I think we need a more bottom up system of organisation, and the modern IT world permits that. Probably the most important role of the state would be the breaking up of monopolies that crush valid alternatives.
Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn, Podemos all have done better than people would have expected 5-10 years ago without doing well enough to take power. There are exceptions like Greece and Mexico...
What the hell are the authorities thinking allowing such people to operate? It’s not as if they don’t know /haven’t been told.
Too bloody feeble. No wonder people lose faith. No wonder those who try to do their jobs honestly feel disheartened, feel like mugs for being honest.
Honestly, don’t get me started on this! I could rage about this all day.
As an aside - I note that Angela Merkel has suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia. This is in addition to stopping any new deals from happening (already part of coalition agreement).
It looks like central and southern Europe is where the EU faces its biggest opposition, northern Europe beyond the UK is actually pretty EUphile
Interesting to see even Trump toughening his line on Saudi Arabia last night
In other news Putin has now hinted he will buy Italian bonds when they go for their kicking at Ecofin just so they cant upset the Commission.
No doubt there will be a quid pro quo somehwere down the line
https://www.lastampa.it/2018/10/25/italia/putin-disposti-a-comprare-titoli-italiani-y65WPakj5p590AGgFTURdK/pagina.html
I've always been fascinated by how we discovered things like yoghurt and yeast.
We need some new thinking.
Despite May’s unwise proclamation that austerity is over I expect exceptionally large contingencies to absorb a significant part of the additional money Hammond has from the OBR forecasts leaving extra money for the NHS already promised, a bit extra for public sector pay and, in practical terms, bugger all else. In a month it might have been different one way or another. The budget should have been postponed.
Bearing in mind that a lot of humans in the UK find the breastfeeding of human babies to be weird I don't think we are a good judge of this.
Fair fucks to Corbo. He is normally as thick as shit and twice as repellent but he was ahead of public opinion on the Saudis.
The Saudis have killed tens of thousands in Yemen already and are using famine as a weapon to threaten hundreds of thousands more. It is a bit odd that we get our knickers in a twist about the chopping up of one of their own citizens just because he occasionally wrote for the Washington Post.
A propos of nothing in particular:
https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/brexit/europe/russia-blocks-uks-post-brexit-tariff-proposal-at-wto
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/07/corbyn-urges-may-to-stop-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia
Behave.
What other type of milk is there?
And if it's ok for the offspring of the producing animal to drink it, why is it not ok for anyone else to drink it?
Mr. L, quite.
I think some of his friends will still be interested in Italy's ports.
The reason for the kerfuffle is that Khashoggi was a journalist so that makes him far more important than a normal person. They write the news, but they also believe they make the news.
I once watched a pair of Japanese tourists who had got horribly lost and ended up in a Dundee University cafeteria at breakfast, being bullied by the hulking form of a local "waitress" into having "Rice Crispies? RICE CRISPIES???"
My gran from the Isle of Lewis used to tell stories about how her mother would flick maggots off the remains of the Sunday roast before serving it up on Tues, Weds, Thurs etc.
Well, while he's (rightly) busy condemning the Saudis perhaps he could also condemn these unpleasant guys, over whom one might expect he might have the teensiest bit more influence than over the Saudis.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/23/palestinian-authority-hamas-torture-peaceful-critics-rights-group-says
Or are human rights abuses by your friends acceptable? In which case, he's no different from May or Blair or any of the other British PMs who sucked up to the repellent Saudis.
Won't be a very long lifetime, though.
Mr. Divvie, aye. Centuries past, parents never had to tell their kids to finish their meals, because there was often not enough foods and the children learnt pretty sharpish that eating everything was essential.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/brexit-folgen-deutschland-ist-beim-eu-budget-grosszuegig-15854816.html
RBS's downfall could - and in a properly functioning regulatory system - should have been stopped 18 months earlier had those who were meant to be in charge done their jobs properly.
No
I read somewhere that one reason Erdogan may have held back from telling everything in his speech to the Turkish parliament at the weekend is that he might be hoping to use this to extract money from the Saudis for Turkey's ailing economy.
What could possibly go wrong with the Saudis pumping money into an increasingly Islamist country on the edge of Europe?
Which reminds me, I started watching, some years ago, part of a series of Professor Brian Cox, but gave up after the first 15-20 minutes or so was devoted to the 'arrow of time'.
I know the past has happened and the future is ahead, and that cause precedes effect. I don't need to be reminded at length.
https://twitter.com/sweenyness/status/1055110409240432641