And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
The point you seem to be missing - although for Brexiters it has clearly become a habit - is that "telling people what not to do" is no longer sufficient, once the referendum had been won. They may have spent a lifetime carping from the sidelines, but the Leave vote should have been their opportunity to step up to the plate of real responsibility.
But of course none of them wanted to face the inevitable compromises that trying to reconcile their obsession with reality would require.
And for every Brexiter politician that might think for a moment of being sensible, there will be a nuttier one behind them just itching to point a finger at the 'sell out'.
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Corbynite.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
[TMay] agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
Is that how it went down? My understanding was more like that there are two ways to achieve the backstop - border in the Irish Sea and Customs Union - and the DUP told her they couldn't support the first one. The problem is that most of her party have told her they can't support the second one, so since then everything's been stuck while she tries to decide which of the two she's going to screw.
Does she have the option of screwing the DUP? If she tries that all the signs are that the budget won't get passed and her majority will be gone.
What is more important to the people of GB, the UK or Ireland?
Ill give an honest answer to your question. I’ll take on anybody’s questions.
I’m sure there’s a lot of racial hatred in large parts of mainland U.K. to the southern Irish, and as existence of NI irks the southern Irish so much, it makes some English and Scots quite fond of it for that reason.
London also gives more to NI than to Brussels (11B net v 9B net ey) that makes an United Ireland impossible.
Ireland's quite a wealthy country these days, and they've just received a large check from Apple, so I don't think it's impossible.
(Although, I would grant you, it's pretty unlikely.)
'Check'? - you've been in the US of A too long. Maybe the Conservative and Unionist Party would be prepared to sell out Northern Ireland and the GFA, but the majority population there are still unionist and the IRA wasn't the only terrorist organisation killing people not that long ago, there was also the UVF and UDA.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
If the telegraph story is right , NI stays in the SM , GB leaves it , then May is going to get No confidence'd I suspect this is what DD and Steve Baker are up to.
They know they can't get rid of May via a MP ballot as they don't have the numbers. However if the DUP vote no confidence , May resigns, Davis elected unopposed with DUP promising support and wins the 2nd no confidence vote within the 2 week period in the FTPA.
Tory remainers would then be in a pickle , do they support Davis as PM or let in Corbyn to stop Brexit.
Care to explain how that works. As a member and have a vote for her successor I am interested to know how David Davis is crowned without my vote
It requires that:
1. Theresa May falls on her sword. 2. Only one set of nomination papers is submitted.
The first is unlikely, but possible. The second is highly unlikely. Not impossible, but it would require the various factions in the Conservative Party to unite around a candidate.
14 days to pass a confidence vote or it's an election. Think about that situation. Tory MP's either pick a single candidate bypassing the members who the DUP would support or it's a general election.
TMay should stand aside in favour of Arlene Foster, let her see how she gets on.
Interesting thought. Apparently the DUP's position is that they are in favour of Brexit and "... their only red line was keeping Northern Ireland in lockstep with Britain, whatever Brexit’s outcome." So that leaves a hard Brexit - they would no doubt support JRM as the new Tory leader!
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Corbynite.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
I think the focus should be on the lunacy of his ideas and argument rather than where he lives.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
If the telegraph story is right , NI stays in the SM , GB leaves it , then May is going to get No confidence'd I suspect this is what DD and Steve Baker are up to.
They know they can't get rid of May via a MP ballot as they don't have the numbers. However if the DUP vote no confidence , May resigns, Davis elected unopposed with DUP promising support and wins the 2nd no confidence vote within the 2 week period in the FTPA.
Tory remainers would then be in a pickle , do they support Davis as PM or let in Corbyn to stop Brexit.
Care to explain how that works. As a member and have a vote for her successor I am interested to know how David Davis is crowned without my vote
It requires that:
1. Theresa May falls on her sword. 2. Only one set of nomination papers is submitted.
The first is unlikely, but possible. The second is highly unlikely. Not impossible, but it would require the various factions in the Conservative Party to unite around a candidate.
14 days to pass a confidence vote or it's an election. Think about that situation. Tory MP's either pick a single candidate bypassing the members who the DUP would support or it's a general election.
TMay should stand aside in favour of Arlene Foster, let her see how she gets on.
Interesting thought. Apparently the DUP's position is that they are in favour of Brexit and "... their only red line was keeping Northern Ireland in lockstep with Britain, whatever Brexit’s outcome." So that leaves a hard Brexit - they would no doubt support JRM as the new Tory leader!
Don't know about the last bit but Arlene was absolutely clear last night that for them the key is frictionless trade within their single market with rUK. They will not accept any barriers to trade in the Irish sea. That seems to me to be a logical and sensible position both as a Unionist and even economically. Their trade with rUK is vastly more important to them than their trade with Eire (plus the small matter of the subsidies of course).
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Some quotes: "There are two keys to understanding the DUP’s true position on EU departure. The first is to realise that, like almost everyone else, it did not think Leave would win the 2016 referendum. This lured the party into believing it could indulge the pro-Brexit instincts of its members and supporters at no political cost.
Such instincts were not shared across the leadership. In an infamous interview just after the referendum, Stormont economy minister Simon Hamilton – Foster’s closest lieutenant – repeatedly refused to say how he had voted, leading to the universal assumption he had voted Remain."
"Like the big beasts of Brexit it thought it could play with, the DUP has never had a plan."
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
I agree on Gove. In fairness to Fox it's difficult to secure trade deals without knowing what the Brexit deal looks like - indeed it's against EU rules to negotiate any separate deals at all while we're still members, though nobody can prevent informal discussions. It's another example of the Rubik's Cube-like complexity of the sequencing of Brexit.
Interesting article......from last May, in case anyone thought it topical
It's background rather than topical. I thought it worthwhile digging into the DUP's position since they might be just about to bring the government down.
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Corbynite.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
Sorry, but this Tory game of screwing the country on the basis that if we object we might get a nasty Labour leader has to stop. They have been doing it for decades now. Every sell out, betrayal and screw up are always excused on this basis.
If the Tories are stupid enough to go into a GE to ratify May's deal with her as leader, they will get wiped out and it will serve them right.
One thing that has struck me being back in the UK talking to people I know if how many dyed in the wool Tories say that not only will they not vote Tory, but they will go out and vote for Corbyn if May sells out on Brexit. Corbyn will self destruct and be out in five years. To be honest it is hard to see him screwing up worse than Brown and the country survived that. Locking the UK into a vassal relationship with the EU could last decades and will do far more damage to the nation in the long run.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
If Corbyn is the answer you are asking the wrong questions Malcolm.
A recent poll showed that for Leavers they would ditch NI and Scotland for their precious... but this was later denounced by Leavers as a voodoo poll and therefore worthless, but it seems that the majority of people prefer Remain to No-Deal.
In short, you pays your money and you takes your choice...
'Ditch' is perjorative. A united Ireland and an independent Scotland would be pleasing for many. I don't understand the sentimental attachment to the Union.
Retaining the union would be pleasing to many. I dont understand the sentimental dream of a united Ireland.
Actually I do, but your comment is extremely glib. Why are people permitted to get sentimental about Ireland, Scotland, England or Wales but not about the UK? You may not share the sentiment for it but others do and there's nothing odd about that, it's very easy to understand even if it is not shared.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
If Corbyn is the answer you are asking the wrong questions Malcolm.
I don't know. I can think of several questions to which Corbyn's the answer. 'Who makes the best jam of all 646 MPs?' would be an obvious one.
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
The point you seem to be missing - although for Brexiters it has clearly become a habit - is that "telling people what not to do" is no longer sufficient, once the referendum had been won. They may have spent a lifetime carping from the sidelines, but the Leave vote should have been their opportunity to step up to the plate of real responsibility.
But of course none of them wanted to face the inevitable compromises that trying to reconcile their obsession with reality would require.
And for every Brexiter politician that might think for a moment of being sensible, there will be a nuttier one behind them just itching to point a finger at the 'sell out'.
The point that is being missed is that the Leavers always had a plan, CETA, and that it was May and the Remainers that deliberately stopped them implementing this. It was the Remainers who went on and on about Soft Brexit that did not exist and wasted two years with cherry picking plans. The backstop concession has killed any possible plan, including any compromise that the Remainers thought they could arrange.
BB and Boris etc resigned because May was on the wrong course. They would I am sure love to take over - but they can't because May is protected by the Remainers.
Whichever way the Remainers want to spin it, the outcome of the EU negotiations is proving that they were wrong. Wrong to think that a Soft Brexit fudge was possible, wrong to say that we needed to keep making concessions, wrong to say that we should not prepare for and if necessary enact no deal.
Remainers will own May's deal. Leavers will vote it down and deliver Brexit. By the time we get to that vote, May's deal will be so lacking in credibility and support that it will be a relief to kill it and finally get on and enact the result of the referendum.
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Corbynite.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
Sorry, but this Tory game of screwing the country on the basis that if we object we might get a nasty Labour leader has to stop. They have been doing it for decades now. Every sell out, betrayal and screw up are always excused on this basis.
If the Tories are stupid enough to go into a GE to ratify May's deal with her as leader, they will get wiped out and it will serve them right.
One thing that has struck me being back in the UK talking to people I know if how many dyed in the wool Tories say that not only will they not vote Tory, but they will go out and vote for Corbyn if May sells out on Brexit. Corbyn will self destruct and be out in five years. To be honest it is hard to see him screwing up worse than Brown and the country survived that. Locking the UK into a vassal relationship with the EU could last decades and will do far more damage to the nation in the long run.
You're raving man. We will still be paying for Brown's folly in 20 years time but even he was several levels of competence ahead of Corbyn and McDonnell. For the vast majority Brexit is not the most important issue. That is one of the reasons May's campaign about it fell so flat in 2017. Corbyn talked about other things almost exclusively and that is what people wanted to hear about.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
Puzzled by the comment. NOT being in the customs union is strated Government policy, even though it appears that this may change.
For the purposes of the backstop, I think. Yes, it is utterly ridiculous that we are still talking about the what if scenario, rather than actually focussing on a new trading relationship.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who ....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
If Corbyn is the answer you are asking the wrong questions Malcolm.
Perhaps so, but the government seems incapable of getting something through on brexit and them most viable plan to manage it will see them lose majority support from the DUP, so if they cling on as a minority basically nothing will get done because whichever Tory faction lost on brexit will probably rebel a lot and make a minority government useless even if they don't let a GE happen.
So really we're looking at some very poor options here. Corbyn would be bad, I am sure, but it looks like government will barely function even if they can agree something on brexit.
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
The point you seem to be missing - although for Brexiters it has clearly become a habit - is that "telling people what not to do" is no longer sufficient, once the referendum had been won. They may have spent a lifetime carping from the sidelines, but the Leave vote should have been their opportunity to step up to the plate of real responsibility.
But of course none of them wanted to face the inevitable compromises that trying to reconcile their obsession with reality would require.
And for every Brexiter politician that might think for a moment of being sensible, there will be a nuttier one behind them just itching to point a finger at the 'sell out'.
The point that is being missed is that the Leavers always had a plan, CETA, and that it was May and the Remainers that deliberately stopped them implementing this. It was the Remainers who went on and on about Soft Brexit that did not exist and wasted two years with cherry picking plans. The backstop concession has killed any possible plan, including any compromise that the Remainers thought they could arrange.
BB and Boris etc resigned because May was on the wrong course. They would I am sure love to take over - but they can't because May is protected by the Remainers.
Whichever way the Remainers want to spin it, the outcome of the EU negotiations is proving that they were wrong. Wrong to think that a Soft Brexit fudge was possible, wrong to say that we needed to keep making concessions, wrong to say that we should not prepare for and if necessary enact no deal.
Remainers will own May's deal. Leavers will vote it down and deliver Brexit. By the time we get to that vote, May's deal will be so lacking in credibility and support that it will be a relief to kill it and finally get on and enact the result of the referendum.
"Leavers always had a plan, CETA,"
No, they didn't, Some leavers wanted that; many others (most?/) did not.
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Look, I appreciate you think that the electorate as a whole is as rancidly unpleasant as you - you after all paid good Australian dollars to watch Farage perform his end of the pier bigotry show to an all-white, all -senile Australian audience - but really they’re not.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who ....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
Maybe, maybe not. At least the UK negotiators will be negotiating with only the UK's interests in mind, not 27 other competing set of interests.
I agree that we won't have the same leverage without our EU partners.
I do wonder if we should make virtue out of necessity and go full on North Korea Brexit focussing on import substitution and protective tariffs.
Not necessarily. All the bargaining power could be wasted on ensuring a good deal for French widget makers at the expense of UK interests, for example.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
If Corbyn is the answer you are asking the wrong questions Malcolm.
I don't know. I can think of several questions to which Corbyn's the answer. 'Who makes the best jam of all 646 MPs?' would be an obvious one.
Excellent pedantry there @Ydoethur. If he sticks to jam, his allotment and man hole covers the damage he does to the country might be mitigated. Just don't let him run anything more important than the Labour Party.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Corbynite.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
Sorry, but this Tory game of screwing the country on the basis that if we object we might get a nasty Labour leader has to stop. They have been doing it for decades now. Every sell out, betrayal and screw up are always excused on this basis. .
That's not a tory game that's a political game both sides play, same way both spend upwards of a decade when in government blaming the last government.
It will never stop because that's just how politics works, claiming whatever failures happen must be excused as better than the other lot at least.
Where he lives is entirely relevant in this matter. Principles and red lines are very easy to hold when one doesn’t have to live with the consequences of them.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
Here is the link I referred to and tried to recall at three end of the last thread. @Mortimer - it is somewhat different to how I described, although budget defeat sets us towards removal of the PM, of is a longer process of trying to sort things than I described.
There is a lot of emphasis on a PM clinging on after an inconclusive GE (well beyond Brown sitting there for a few days). In this edge case, the PM has failed to pass a Queens speech and because of this the government is barred from presenting a budget by the rules.
It is this that means the right to raise Income Tax expires and in extremis, HMG runs out of money. This is why it argues the Queen would have to intervene and, if the PM refuses certain deadlock breaking options, she would be asked to resign.
At current we have a Queen's speech on the books until 2019, but I think a budget not being passed would theoretically bring us towards a similar sequence of deadlock breakers in time. In reality, if May could not ultimately pass the budget through the early steps, I'm pretty certain the Tory party would intervene long before the Queen's hand was forced.
EDIT: had to put the full Google URL in as the shorter conscc.org one didn't link correctly. I must really have a play with tinyurl at some point. That's what comes of not using Twiitter, I suppose.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
Sorry, but this Tory game of screwing the country on the basis that if we object we might get a nasty Labour leader has to stop. They have been doing it for decades now. Every sell out, betrayal and screw up are always excused on this basis.
If the Tories are stupid enough to go into a GE to ratify May's deal with her as leader, they will get wiped out and it will serve them right.
One thing that has struck me being back in the UK talking to people I know if how many dyed in the wool Tories say that not only will they not vote Tory, but they will go out and vote for Corbyn if May sells out on Brexit. Corbyn will self destruct and be out in five years. To be honest it is hard to see him screwing up worse than Brown and the country survived that. Locking the UK into a vassal relationship with the EU could last decades and will do far more damage to the nation in the long run.
I am not a Tory (tm).
But you miss my point: every post you write seems to be about wanting a certain type of hard Brexit, and you are willing to see Corbyn taking over because of your hatred for May. Yet Corbyn is not likely to give you the Brexit you want - in fact, arguably he is less likely to do so.
That's why I question your motivation.
I'm surprised in your short visit to the UK you've found a load of dyed-in-the-wool Tories to talk to, but am not very surprised that the ones you found seem to reflect your stated view ...
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
The point you seem to be missing - although for Brexiters it has clearly become a habit - is that "telling people what not to do" is no longer sufficient, once the referendum had been won. They may have spent a lifetime carping from the sidelines, but the Leave vote should have been their opportunity to step up to the plate of real responsibility.
But of course none of them wanted to face the inevitable compromises that trying to reconcile their obsession with reality would require.
And for every Brexiter politician that might think for a moment of being sensible, there will be a nuttier one behind them just itching to point a finger at the 'sell out'.
The point that is being missed is that the Leavers always had a plan, CETA, and that it was May and the Remainers that deliberately stopped them implementing this. It was the Remainers who went on and on about Soft Brexit that did not exist and wasted two years with cherry picking plans. The backstop concession has killed any possible plan, including any compromise that the Remainers thought they could arrange.
BB and Boris etc resigned because May was on the wrong course. They would I am sure love to take over - but they can't because May is protected by the Remainers.
Whichever way the Remainers want to spin it, the outcome of the EU negotiations is proving that they were wrong. Wrong to think that a Soft Brexit fudge was possible, wrong to say that we needed to keep making concessions, wrong to say that we should not prepare for and if necessary enact no deal.
Remainers will own May's deal. Leavers will vote it down and deliver Brexit. By the time we get to that vote, May's deal will be so lacking in credibility and support that it will be a relief to kill it and finally get on and enact the result of the referendum.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Puzzled by the comment. NOT being in the customs union is strated Government policy, even though it appears that this may change.
There does seem to be some movement on this inspired, I think, by the fact that it was not on May's list of red lines at PMQs yesterday. I think she would find a CU an almost impossible sell to the majority of her party for anything other than a time limited period. I suspect that is what this morning's cabinet is about.
[TMay] agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
Is that how it went down? My understanding was more like that there are two ways to achieve the backstop - border in the Irish Sea and Customs Union - and the DUP told her they couldn't support the first one. The problem is that most of her party have told her they can't support the second one, so since then everything's been stuck while she tries to decide which of the two she's going to screw.
Does she have the option of screwing the DUP? If she tries that all the signs are that the budget won't get passed and her majority will be gone.
Indeed so. Unless she can blame the people for an outcome and hope MPs respect that, atleast a few more as some obviously wouldn't, I don't think she gets the vote for brexit in a way which doesn't collapse the government.
Its not even about her, she'll be gone next year I'm sure, but it's hard to see how the DUP back down at all - they are much more prepared for brinkmanship - and the only option to avoid no deal without a referendum forces the DUP hand and destroys the government.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may have 'told' May not to do what she was doing, but they didn't have a workable alternative plan. In fact, leavers could not agree on a plan even if there was one available.
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
They are the most incompetent bunch of no users any country has ever had the misfortune to be led by. Even Corbyn would be better than this bunch of absolute muppets.
Puzzled by the comment. NOT being in the customs union is strated Government policy, even though it appears that this may change.
For the purposes of the backstop, I think. Yes, it is utterly ridiculous that we are still talking about the what if scenario, rather than actually focussing on a new trading relationship.
Because the EU wants it to be permanent and ludicrously we will have no exit timetable. I mean it's absolutely absurd that we could give two years notice to leave the EU and all that entails but we would have no timetable or exit from this backstop. Because it would be permanent.
Here is the link I referred to and tried to recall at three end of the last thread. @Mortimer - it is somewhat different to how I described, although budget defeat sets us towards removal of the PM, of is a longer process of trying to sort things than I described.
There is a lot of emphasis on a PM clinging on after an inconclusive GE (well beyond Brown sitting there for a few days). In this edge case, the PM has failed to pass a Queens speech and because of this the government is barred from presenting a budget by the rules.
It is this that means the right to raise Income Tax expires and in extremis, HMG runs out of money. This is why it argues the Queen would have to intervene and, if the PM refuses certain deadlock breaking options, she would be asked to resign.
At current we have a Queen's speech on the books until 2019, but I think a budget not being passed would theoretically bring us towards a similar sequence of deadlock breakers in time. In reality, if May could not ultimately pass the budget through the early steps, I'm pretty certain the Tory party would intervene long before the Queen's hand was forced.
EDIT: had to put the full Google URL in as the shorter conscc.org one didn't link correctly. I must really have a play with tinyurl at some point. That's what comes of not using Twiitter, I suppose.
Completely OT. Yesterday I wrote on here that an English cruise ship had arrived in Villefranche harbour and the grossly overweight British passengers made navigation of the narrow alleyways impossible.
Well I'd like to unreservedly apologise to all those who took offense.
I've just discovered today is 'International Obesity Day' so I must have inadvertently walked into the British delegation and it had nothing whatever to do with eating too many baguettes or being Brexiteers.
Puzzled by the comment. NOT being in the customs union is strated Government policy, even though it appears that this may change.
There does seem to be some movement on this inspired, I think, by the fact that it was not on May's list of red lines at PMQs yesterday. I think she would find a CU an almost impossible sell to the majority of her party for anything other than a time limited period. I suspect that is what this morning's cabinet is about.
even time limited looks a hard sell unless 50 + labour mps help her out. I think plenty of mps if not members could accept that saying no more concessions last time was just a bluff, but to have even a chance on this I think May would need the EU to confirm this is bloody it, no more to argue about on this phase.
I cannot see that though. They are doing too well out of this.
And the DUP still seem unhappy, though they never seem happy really.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
The leave side claimed that we could stay in the single market. What a mess.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
When people pointed to the economic downsides the Leave campaign would say something like, "Norway is not in the EU, but is still in the single market." When then this contradiction was pointed to they would then use the argument that the British people would be able to choose - a choice now being denied them in the pursuit of the one true Brexit.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
The leave side, that We could stay in the single market. What a mess.
I think they also said that leaving would mean leaving the single market.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
All Remainer arguments were dismissed as Project Fear. We were promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides by the side that won the referendum. A benefit of EU membership is being a full part of the Single Market. CETA does not deliver that. It substantially reduces our access.
Two years on, with Leavers inventing steadily more extreme ideas of what they campaigned for in the referendum, can the canard that David Cameron was at fault in not determining what Leavers wanted (rather than didn’t want) be laid to rest?
Leavers have a mandate for being obnoxious to foreigners and for spending more money on the NHS and that’s it.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
The leave side claimed that we could stay in the single market. What a mess.
Not true. Not during the referendum.
Perhaps you'll post the lying video snipping quotes out of context none of which were said during the referendum in order to dispute that? As there's no other way to.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
All Remainer arguments were dismissed as Project Fear. We were promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides by the side that won the referendum. A benefit of EU membership is being a full part of the Single Market. CETA does not deliver that. It substantially reduces our access.
We were explicitly told we would leave the Single Market.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Even the Remain side said leaving would mean leaving the single market.
What Remain said was Project Fear, remember.
No, the purported consequences of leaving the Single Market were Project Fear.
Leave said we could leave the Single Market and we would be OK.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
All Remainer arguments were dismissed as Project Fear. We were promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides by the side that won the referendum. A benefit of EU membership is being a full part of the Single Market. CETA does not deliver that. It substantially reduces our access.
We were explicitly told we would leave the Single Market.
We were explicitly promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides. Full access to the Single Market is a benefit. We are going to lose it.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
All Remainer arguments were dismissed as Project Fear. We were promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides by the side that won the referendum. A benefit of EU membership is being a full part of the Single Market. CETA does not deliver that. It substantially reduces our access.
We were explicitly told we would leave the Single Market.
We were explicitly promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides. Full access to the Single Market is a benefit. We are going to lose it.
Easiest trade deal in history. We hold all the cards.
We never got a clear explanation why that didn’t turn out that way.
Two years on, with Leavers inventing steadily more extreme ideas of what they campaigned for in the referendum, can the canard that David Cameron was at fault in not determining what Leavers wanted (rather than didn’t want) be laid to rest?
Leavers have a mandate for being obnoxious to foreigners and for spending more money on the NHS and that’s it.
Can we also lay to rest "everyone knew what they were voting for" when Brexiteers are still arguing amongst themselves what it was.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
All Remainer arguments were dismissed as Project Fear. We were promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides by the side that won the referendum. A benefit of EU membership is being a full part of the Single Market. CETA does not deliver that. It substantially reduces our access.
We were explicitly told we would leave the Single Market.
We were explicitly promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides. Full access to the Single Market is a benefit. We are going to lose it.
Access to or membership of? I mean, if the EU wants to stop trading with us then fine. I can live without going there.
DUP not voting with government against Labour amendment. DUP threatening to vote against the budget DUP Brexit spokesman with an eviscerating article in the Telegraph about May.
It's not a large jump to see them withdrawing confidence, if the reports on the deal are right. Labour puts down a confidence motion Government loses it.
What happens next
Mrs May announces that she will lead the Conservative Party into the election to secure her version of brexit.?
And I win £120 off archer101au if that election takes place with May as Tory leader.
I don't want to win this bet. I hope a deal can be agreed that is acceptable to the majority of the electorate. A soft boiled Breggsit for me please. (For soft boiled eggs I recommend Delia's method. 1 minute in simmering water followed by 6 minutes off the heat with the lid on).
I will happily pay £120 to watch the Tories get obliterated at a GE with May as leader!
Corbynite.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
I think the focus should be on the lunacy of his ideas and argument rather than where he lives.
Can't it be on both? In the last 5 minutes I've discovered that the two battiest Brexiteers on here both hail from Australia. I find that at least as relevant as why 73% of Brexiteers support capital punishment
I see 53,000 predominatly African-American voter registrations in Georgia are being blocked due to a voter supression measure designed to block voter registration.
I'm sure Charles will along to tell us how that's totally fine as there was a debate or some such.
This does make me wonder what Archer's motivation is. He only ever seems to post about hardline Brexit, and Corbyn is as unlikely to deliver that as May - and faces exactly the same problems inside and outside his party.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
Sorry, but this Tory game of screwing the country on the basis that if we object we might get a nasty Labour leader has to stop. They have been doing it for decades now. Every sell out, betrayal and screw up are always excused on this basis.
If the Tories are stupid enough to go into a GE to ratify May's deal with her as leader, they will get wiped out and it will serve them right.
One thing that has struck me being back in the UK talking to people I know if how many dyed in the wool Tories say that not only will they not vote Tory, but they will go out and vote for Corbyn if May sells out on Brexit. Corbyn will self destruct and be out in five years. To be honest it is hard to see him screwing up worse than Brown and the country survived that. Locking the UK into a vassal relationship with the EU could last decades and will do far more damage to the nation in the long run.
'I am not a Tory (tm).
But you miss my point: every post you write seems to be about wanting a certain type of hard Brexit, and you are willing to see Corbyn taking over because of your hatred for May. Yet Corbyn is not likely to give you the Brexit you want - in fact, arguably he is less likely to do so.
That's why I question your motivation.
I'm surprised in your short visit to the UK you've found a load of dyed-in-the-wool Tories to talk to, but am not very surprised that the ones you found seem to reflect your stated view ...'
We were told that after Chequers, yet even with UKIP up to 8% the Tories are still at least largely tied with Labour and ahead by 6% with Yougov
Mr. Meeks, Cameron would've had a better chance of winning if either an independent body or the official Leave campaign had been required to put together a set of proposals for the way we would leave.
That he didn't was due to complacency, again. (We saw this with the Scottish independence referendum, when he stopped the Civil Service doing contingency planning, a piece of idiocy repeated with the EU referendum).
Mr. Observer, it's indicative of how abysmal both campaigns were that neither was taken especially seriously at the time, and neither are taken seriously now. Everything Will Be Fine/Even The Sky Will Be On Fire were not compelling.
Given you live and work in Australia you might not know this, but what the Buccaneering Brexiteers actually promised us was all the benefits of being in the EU with none of the downsides. That is not CETA.
Yes it is CETA. Their promises were control of our own laws, an end to the ECJ etc and that is only CETA.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
No, it’s not. CETA does not give UK businesses the access to the Single Market they have currently.
Which was argued at the time by Remainers and vested interests. What's changed since?
All Remainer arguments were dismissed as Project Fear. We were promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides by the side that won the referendum. A benefit of EU membership is being a full part of the Single Market. CETA does not deliver that. It substantially reduces our access.
We were explicitly told we would leave the Single Market.
We were explicitly promised all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides. Full access to the Single Market is a benefit. We are going to lose it.
And how delightful that May is in this position all of her own making.
She was the one who screwed up the election after she started threatening her own voters.
She was the one who said "Brexit Means Brexit" and all that bullsh*t to sucker in Leavers only to then sell them down the river (did she seriously think they would take her betrayal lying down?)
She was the one who humiliated herself and the country by flying off to see Junker in the middle of the night and then agreed the backstop even though the DUP had told her they couldn't support it.
She was the one who betrayed David Davis and his CETA plan while sneakily cooking up Chequers with Robbins.
Never has a politician been more hoist by their own petard than Theresa May....
They may hav.
Gove hasn’t, however. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again that our agriculture policy looks to be much better post Brexit, and that’s down to him.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Fox is undoubtedly an incompetent prat of questionable integrity and he clearly had no idea just how complicated trade deals are but I struggle to see how it is possible for him to even start until he knows what our base line with the EU is, what he can offer, what he can't etc. As this has been a moving feast for the last 2 years it is likely that even someone competent would be in a very similar position.
I understand he’s been obsessed with a US trade deal and wasting most of his energy on that.
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Agreed. Making sure we still have the equivalent of our existing EU deals with the countries that signed them on day 1 is by far the greatest priority. We seemed to make some progress on that with South Korea but I've not heard much else about it.
There is Chile too, though only a photocopy of our existing EU deal too. It does seem that for the majority of the world our terms of trade will worsen post Brexit.
Puzzled by the comment. NOT being in the customs union is strated Government policy, even though it appears that this may change.
There does seem to be some movement on this inspired, I think, by the fact that it was not on May's list of red lines at PMQs yesterday. I think she would find a CU an almost impossible sell to the majority of her party for anything other than a time limited period. I suspect that is what this morning's cabinet is about.
even time limited looks a hard sell unless 50 + labour mps help her out. I think plenty of mps if not members could accept that saying no more concessions last time was just a bluff, but to have even a chance on this I think May would need the EU to confirm this is bloody it, no more to argue about on this phase.
I cannot see that though. They are doing too well out of this.
And the DUP still seem unhappy, though they never seem happy really.
This is it for the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period given Citizens' Rights and the Exit Bill have already been agreed
May was right after she became PM that Brexit had to be delivered by the Leavers - that is why she put DD, Boris and Fox in place. But then because it was obvious that there needed to be a showdown with the EU with a real threat and risk of no deal, she went back and undermined them and eventually took over completely, simply because she didn't have the guts to face down the EU and risk a crisis.
Selling out on Brexit is never going to 'solve' the problem. This is May's failure. May's backstop. Trying to blame the Leavers for a bad Brexit won't work as at every step they told May not to do what she was doing. The DUP delivering the coup de grace for the Tory party is probably the most merciful outcome because if the voters ever get hold of them....
The point you seem to be missing - although for Brexiters it has clearly become a habit - is that "telling people what not to do" is no longer sufficient, once the referendum had been won. They may have spent a lifetime carping from the sidelines, but the Leave vote should have been their opportunity to step up to the plate of real responsibility.
But of course none of them wanted to face the inevitable compromises that trying to reconcile their obsession with reality would require.
And for every Brexiter politician that might think for a moment of being sensible, there will be a nuttier one behind them just itching to point a finger at the 'sell out'.
The point that is being missed is that the Leavers always had a plan, CETA, and that it was May and the Remainers that deliberately stopped them implementing this. It was the Remainers who went on and on about Soft Brexit that did not exist and wasted two years with cherry picking plans. The backstop concession has killed any possible plan, including any compromise that the Remainers thought they could arrange.
BB and Boris etc resigned because May was on the wrong course. They would I am sure love to take over - but they can't because May is protected by the Remainers.
Whichever way the Remainers want to spin it, the outcome of the EU negotiations is proving that they were wrong. Wrong to think that a Soft Brexit fudge was possible, wrong to say that we needed to keep making concessions, wrong to say that we should not prepare for and if necessary enact no deal.
Remainers will own May's deal. Leavers will vote it down and deliver Brexit. By the time we get to that vote, May's deal will be so lacking in credibility and support that it will be a relief to kill it and finally get on and enact the result of the referendum.
As Barnier made clear last December and ever since CETA is only an.option for GB without a backstop promising no hard border in Ireland respecting the Good Friday Agreement there can be no CETA
Mr. Meeks, Cameron would've had a better chance of winning if either an independent body or the official Leave campaign had been required to put together a set of proposals for the way we would leave.
If he had done, Leavers would have called it Project Fear. Like they did...
Since Leavers aren't in charge none of this is their responsibility.
LMAO
You Brexit, you own it.
Is there a similar catchy half-rhyme for the ultra-remainers - to the effect of you lose, you throw your toys out of the pram for years, and give succour to our opponents?
Mr. P, we already know Osborne's fear-mongering was overblown. There was no Punishment Budget, after all.
If he'd been more credible, then his words, and those of others (that were perhaps more realistic) would've been taken more seriously and had more impact.
What possible succour are Brexiteers taking from the shitshow they unleashed?
BoZo's ambition crashed and burned on the altar of Brexit. Nobody who campaigned for it will be remembered well by history. When the UK is once again the sick man of Europe, will they tour the studios saying "at least the people who wanted to remain are unhappy now..."
What possible succour are Brexiteers taking from the shitshow they unleashed?
BoZo's ambition crashed and burned on the altar of Brexit. Nobody who campaigned for it will be remembered well by history. When the UK is once again the sick man of Europe, will they tour the studios saying "at least the people who wanted to remain are unhappy now..."
Comments
Which is why they didn't come up with one.
David, Fox and Boris have shown themselves up to be clueless incompetents. They achieved f'all in two years in position - and that's not May's fault.
But of course none of them wanted to face the inevitable compromises that trying to reconcile their obsession with reality would require.
And for every Brexiter politician that might think for a moment of being sensible, there will be a nuttier one behind them just itching to point a finger at the 'sell out'.
I know some on here don't like posters pointing out that Archer lives in Oz, but he won't have to live with the consequences of his burn-everything-down purist-zealot approach to Brexit.
Most of the rest of us will.
If she tries that all the signs are that the budget won't get passed and her majority will be gone.
Maybe the Conservative and Unionist Party would be prepared to sell out Northern Ireland and the GFA, but the majority population there are still unionist and the IRA wasn't the only terrorist organisation killing people not that long ago, there was also the UVF and UDA.
Part of me wonders just how much Fox’s failings (how many trade deals has he secured? One?) are to do with May’s position on the Customs Union.
Apparently the DUP's position is that they are in favour of Brexit and
"... their only red line was keeping Northern Ireland in lockstep with Britain, whatever Brexit’s outcome."
So that leaves a hard Brexit - they would no doubt support JRM as the new Tory leader!
I’d have focussed on replicating/improving all our existing EU trade deals first, and sorting out our seat at the WTO.
We’ve got U.K.-South Africa agreed already, so it can be done.
Party publicly panicking as UK plan for EU customs partnership falls apart
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/dup-faces-heavy-responsibility-for-brexit-position-taken-lightly-1.3489256
Some quotes:
"There are two keys to understanding the DUP’s true position on EU departure. The first is to realise that, like almost everyone else, it did not think Leave would win the 2016 referendum. This lured the party into believing it could indulge the pro-Brexit instincts of its members and supporters at no political cost.
Such instincts were not shared across the leadership. In an infamous interview just after the referendum, Stormont economy minister Simon Hamilton – Foster’s closest lieutenant – repeatedly refused to say how he had voted, leading to the universal assumption he had voted Remain."
"Like the big beasts of Brexit it thought it could play with, the DUP has never had a plan."
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1049386798554771459?s=19
If the Tories are stupid enough to go into a GE to ratify May's deal with her as leader, they will get wiped out and it will serve them right.
One thing that has struck me being back in the UK talking to people I know if how many dyed in the wool Tories say that not only will they not vote Tory, but they will go out and vote for Corbyn if May sells out on Brexit. Corbyn will self destruct and be out in five years. To be honest it is hard to see him screwing up worse than Brown and the country survived that. Locking the UK into a vassal relationship with the EU could last decades and will do far more damage to the nation in the long run.
Actually I do, but your comment is extremely glib. Why are people permitted to get sentimental about Ireland, Scotland, England or Wales but not about the UK? You may not share the sentiment for it but others do and there's nothing odd about that, it's very easy to understand even if it is not shared.
BB and Boris etc resigned because May was on the wrong course. They would I am sure love to take over - but they can't because May is protected by the Remainers.
Whichever way the Remainers want to spin it, the outcome of the EU negotiations is proving that they were wrong. Wrong to think that a Soft Brexit fudge was possible, wrong to say that we needed to keep making concessions, wrong to say that we should not prepare for and if necessary enact no deal.
Remainers will own May's deal. Leavers will vote it down and deliver Brexit. By the time we get to that vote, May's deal will be so lacking in credibility and support that it will be a relief to kill it and finally get on and enact the result of the referendum.
I do wonder if we should make virtue out of necessity and go full on North Korea Brexit focussing on import substitution and protective tariffs.
So really we're looking at some very poor options here. Corbyn would be bad, I am sure, but it looks like government will barely function even if they can agree something on brexit.
No, they didn't, Some leavers wanted that; many others (most?/) did not.
FAOD that’s the British electorate.
It will never stop because that's just how politics works, claiming whatever failures happen must be excused as better than the other lot at least.
Nope. Josias is spot on.
Where he lives is entirely relevant in this matter. Principles and red lines are very easy to hold when one doesn’t have to live with the consequences of them.
There is a lot of emphasis on a PM clinging on after an inconclusive GE (well beyond Brown sitting there for a few days). In this edge case, the PM has failed to pass a Queens speech and because of this the government is barred from presenting a budget by the rules.
It is this that means the right to raise Income Tax expires and in extremis, HMG runs out of money. This is why it argues the Queen would have to intervene and, if the PM refuses certain deadlock breaking options, she would be asked to resign.
At current we have a Queen's speech on the books until 2019, but I think a budget not being passed would theoretically bring us towards a similar sequence of deadlock breakers in time. In reality, if May could not ultimately pass the budget through the early steps, I'm pretty certain the Tory party would intervene long before the Queen's hand was forced.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.consoc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Formation-of-Governments.docx&ved=2ahUKEwj859PC4v3dAhUrxYUKHTR_DWo4RhAWMAF6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw2NhcUuTe2Un4A0ubRtaqUR
EDIT: had to put the full Google URL in as the shorter conscc.org one didn't link correctly. I must really have a play with tinyurl at some point. That's what comes of not using Twiitter, I suppose.
If the Tories are stupid enough to go into a GE to ratify May's deal with her as leader, they will get wiped out and it will serve them right.
One thing that has struck me being back in the UK talking to people I know if how many dyed in the wool Tories say that not only will they not vote Tory, but they will go out and vote for Corbyn if May sells out on Brexit. Corbyn will self destruct and be out in five years. To be honest it is hard to see him screwing up worse than Brown and the country survived that. Locking the UK into a vassal relationship with the EU could last decades and will do far more damage to the nation in the long run.
I am not a Tory (tm).
But you miss my point: every post you write seems to be about wanting a certain type of hard Brexit, and you are willing to see Corbyn taking over because of your hatred for May. Yet Corbyn is not likely to give you the Brexit you want - in fact, arguably he is less likely to do so.
That's why I question your motivation.
I'm surprised in your short visit to the UK you've found a load of dyed-in-the-wool Tories to talk to, but am not very surprised that the ones you found seem to reflect your stated view ...
Its not even about her, she'll be gone next year I'm sure, but it's hard to see how the DUP back down at all - they are much more prepared for brinkmanship - and the only option to avoid no deal without a referendum forces the DUP hand and destroys the government.
Well I'd like to unreservedly apologise to all those who took offense.
I've just discovered today is 'International Obesity Day' so I must have inadvertently walked into the British delegation and it had nothing whatever to do with eating too many baguettes or being Brexiteers.
I cannot see that though. They are doing too well out of this.
And the DUP still seem unhappy, though they never seem happy really.
Remainers insisted that would be a disaster. Since then they're arguing that CETA doesn't apply because it would be a disaster but they tried that line in the referendum and lost anyway.
https://twitter.com/mooseallain/status/1050279638763749376?s=21
https://twitter.com/mooseallain/status/1050279815054536706?s=21
Leavers have a mandate for being obnoxious to foreigners and for spending more money on the NHS and that’s it.
Perhaps you'll post the lying video snipping quotes out of context none of which were said during the referendum in order to dispute that? As there's no other way to.
Leave said we could leave the Single Market and we would be OK.
We never got a clear explanation why that didn’t turn out that way.
I'm sure Charles will along to tell us how that's totally fine as there was a debate or some such.
Since Leavers aren't in charge none of this is their responsibility.
But you miss my point: every post you write seems to be about wanting a certain type of hard Brexit, and you are willing to see Corbyn taking over because of your hatred for May. Yet Corbyn is not likely to give you the Brexit you want - in fact, arguably he is less likely to do so.
That's why I question your motivation.
I'm surprised in your short visit to the UK you've found a load of dyed-in-the-wool Tories to talk to, but am not very surprised that the ones you found seem to reflect your stated view ...'
We were told that after Chequers, yet even with UKIP up to 8% the Tories are still at least largely tied with Labour and ahead by 6% with Yougov
That he didn't was due to complacency, again. (We saw this with the Scottish independence referendum, when he stopped the Civil Service doing contingency planning, a piece of idiocy repeated with the EU referendum).
Mr. Observer, it's indicative of how abysmal both campaigns were that neither was taken especially seriously at the time, and neither are taken seriously now. Everything Will Be Fine/Even The Sky Will Be On Fire were not compelling.
You Brexit, you own it.
Meet Britain’s real Brexit broker
As negotiators prepare to meet again, could civil servant Olly Robbins prove Brexit’s unlikely hero?
https://www.ft.com/content/a7298efa-cc1c-11e8-b276-b9069bde0956
If he'd been more credible, then his words, and those of others (that were perhaps more realistic) would've been taken more seriously and had more impact.
BoZo's ambition crashed and burned on the altar of Brexit. Nobody who campaigned for it will be remembered well by history. When the UK is once again the sick man of Europe, will they tour the studios saying "at least the people who wanted to remain are unhappy now..."
Get a grip.
whats not to like ?
Brexiteers can't agree on anything