I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
What's happening is that Brexit is failing and Britain has entered a spiral of decline. Through the pigheadedness of Leavers, Brexit has become a faultline that will wreck the UK for decades.
No raging is involved - I've long ago made my peace with this. It's desperately sad but there it is.
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
Yet 'raging at the storm' is exactly what many Brexiteers did for decades. Moaning, whinging, screaming, stamping their feet like petulant children. And that was just David Davis.
Given the behaviour of leavers over the years, you can't really blame remainers for acting in the same way now they've lost.
But the sad thing is many leavers are still acting in the same way in victory ...
And one of the keys to democracy is not having to 'accept' what happens, but peacefully arguing for change. Alastair and others are perfectly entitled to argue against what is happening if they want, just as leavers did.
“The phenomenon of populism cannot be wished away and one of its causes was the sense of a political class that does not listen. It is a lesson EU leaders are still failing to learn.”
I also liked:
This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.
Surely the main point made is that "Instead of recognising the narrowness of their win and seeking to unify the nation they pursued the most hardline of Brexits."
Leaving in name only is pointless, and does not reflect the referendum result. If we're to be members of the single market and customs union we might as well be members of the EU. If we're to leave the EU, we must leave the customs union.
Asking for compromise then seeking to have the EU continue to set laws and trade deals here, even for businesses that are solely domestic traders is a Constitution/Lisbon trick. People weren't fooled by changing the title and reordering the paragraphs.
"Oh, yes, we've left. See? No membership card. Yes, I suppose the EU do set our regulations. And yes, I suppose they do dictate our trade terms. And yes, I suppose we don't have any say at all any more, but that's all your fault, you wicked Leavers."
Leaving in name only respects the referendum result perfectly. All it said was leave the EU - so long as we do that, job done. Future governments can redefine our relationship in any way they wish. But of course they'll have to argue for each step away from the European mainstream on its merits. I have a feeling that won't be too easy to do.
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
What's happening is that Brexit is failing and Britain has entered a spiral of decline. Through the pigheadedness of Leavers, Brexit has become a faultline that will wreck the UK for decades.
No raging is involved - I've long ago made my peace with this. It's desperately sad but there it is.
How are we declining? Yesterday we were discussing how the UK is 10% better off than we were at the best we have ever been peak of the unsustainable bubble in 2008. The UK is better off than it ever has been.
King Cole, aye. Like the iconoclasm, it'll be around for decades, at least.
Mr. Eagles, yes. You just said leaving without a deal wouldn't honour the result, so, logically, if the EU offered only one deal, and it was terrible, you'd still sign it.
It's better if we get a good deal, but if we're offered something worse than leaving on WTO terms then it'd be daft to sign it.
Mr. Recidivist, yeah, reneging on the Lisbon promise because the title of the treaty got changed really led to things dying down... repeating the trick for leaving the EU would, I'm sure, have no political repercussions whatsoever.
Mr. Jessop, there's something in that. But there are genuine grievances too, most notably over the reneged referendum on Lisbon. If the political class had kept that promise, we'd still be in the EU.
I went into a clothes shop in Nice yesterday. For those unfamiliar with French shops the assistants are as slow and as unhelpful as you'll find anywhere.
An engaging black guy came over to me and asked (in French) if he could help. His English was perfect so we soon started speaking in English.
He was Portuguese but he'd been working in Manchester for the last 8 years. He said he loved it there but things changed after the Brexit vote and he and his partner felt they had to move. So he came to France and turned a language he'd learned at school into one he could speak fluently and he was away.
A tiny little story of no particular signifcance other than it left me pissed off. We undervalue too many things and people that make the UK what it is, And for why? To appease some Little Englanders who have an opinon of their own worth that is in no way borne out by reality.
Another made up story.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly something I’ve heard a fair bit of from people at work. Your experience may be different, but that doesn’t meannit isn’t happening.
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
Shopworkers are exactly the kind of EU citizens that the government, the Labour party, the media and the general population have made clear are not welcome in the UK. It’s no great surprise that such people hear that message and leave.
Anyone already here has the right to stay and to apply for it for many years to come.
This was one of the first things we negotiated.
Yes, they can stay here in the knowledge that they are living among people who think they take jobs from locals, suppress wages, drive up rents, put undue strain on public services and come from countries that are little more than chips off the Soviet and Nazi blocks! Why on earth anyone should feel uncomfortable in such an environment is beyond me!!
To be honest lots of Spanish say much the same about Brits here and yet they keep coming. Most people are very apolitical. The British are no different from other Europeans.
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
What's happening is that Brexit is failing and Britain has entered a spiral of decline. Through the pigheadedness of Leavers, Brexit has become a faultline that will wreck the UK for decades.
No raging is involved - I've long ago made my peace with this. It's desperately sad but there it is.
How are we declining? Yesterday we were discussing how the UK is 10% better off than we were at the best we have ever been peak of the unsustainable bubble in 2008. The UK is better off than it ever has been.
A slower recovery than the US recovery from the Great Depression is nothing to boast about. Growth remains anaemic. Productivity is sensationally bad.
The UK will continue to get richer in absolute terms but any objective take on the UK right now would conclude that it is in a period of sharp relative decline both in economic terms and in terms of international influence. There is a good chance that the UK will cease to exist in its current form in the short to medium term.
Mr. Recidivist, yeah, reneging on the Lisbon promise because the title of the treaty got changed really led to things dying down... repeating the trick for leaving the EU would, I'm sure, have no political repercussions whatsoever.
Mr. Jessop, there's something in that. But there are genuine grievances too, most notably over the reneged referendum on Lisbon. If the political class had kept that promise, we'd still be in the EU.
There are indeed genuine grievances on both sides.
I went into a clothes shop in Nice yesterday. For those unfamiliar with French shops the assistants are as slow and as unhelpful as you'll find anywhere.
An engaging black guy came over to me and asked (in French) if he could help. His English was perfect so we soon started speaking in English.
He was Portuguese but he'd been working in Manchester for the last 8 years. He said he loved it there but things changed after the Brexit vote and he and his partner felt they had to move. So he came to France and turned a language he'd learned at school into one he could speak fluently and he was away.
A tiny little story of no particular signifcance other than it left me pissed off. We undervalue too many things and people that make the UK what it is, And for why? To appease some Little Englanders who have an opinon of their own worth that is in no way borne out by reality.
Another made up story.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
I hear plenty of it from the EU is Israeli, and he came on an EU passport via grandparents.
Though this all should be celebrated as a feature rather than a bug in Brexitland.
It seems that the non existence of faeries is the lack of faith of those who never believed in them.
Wow. Another hardcore Remainer has countless anecdotes of how beastly Brexit is to the Europeans.
And this only weeks after Javid excluded NHS workers from the migration cap, meaning anyone with the right skills can now come worldwide.
Whereas a diehard Leaver like you has never heard any EU citizen say they now feel less welcome in the UK :-D
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
Yes, you undoubtedly know your wife and her friends better than I do. Equally, though, it’s unlikely you know many of my EU friends or work colleagues - or Foxy’s. What puzzles me is that while I do not doubt that you are entirely truthful when recounting your interactions you cannot accept the veracity of experiences that run counter to your own.
Mr. Recidivist, yeah, reneging on the Lisbon promise because the title of the treaty got changed really led to things dying down... repeating the trick for leaving the EU would, I'm sure, have no political repercussions whatsoever.
Mr. Jessop, there's something in that. But there are genuine grievances too, most notably over the reneged referendum on Lisbon. If the political class had kept that promise, we'd still be in the EU.
The Lisbon treaty was less important than the Maastricht one - but nobody called for a referendum on that one. Why is that? (Rhetorical question - I know the answer very well.)
Just reporting from the front line. Britain is no longer seen as an opening and welcoming place for the medium term. No one goes where they are not wanted, if they have any choice.
It is not just a matter of Visas. Currently EU and EEA nationals have equal recognition of professional qualifications. It took about a month for her to get GMC registration of her specialist qualifications, non EU take about a year. As most come intending just a year or two, even if they wind up staying longer, bureaucracy matters. France and Germany are both short of doctors, and much less hassle. Depreciation of Sterling and freezing of salaries here is a further factor.
Still, if it increases rates of pay for sturdy British yeoman doctors like myself, that is the point of Brexit.
If Britain was no longer seen as welcoming then given how many non-Britons are in the country we would see net emigration.
That's not happening. Instead we still at a statistically significant rate have net immigration at its highest ever levels.
The difference is that non EU migration is overwhelmingly from the developing world in africa and the subcontinent. The step up economically for such migrants overcomes the other doubts.
But we still have EU immigration not emigration.
Mostly bringing in family, rather than workers now, from what I see.
I went into a clothes shop in Nice yesterday. For those unfamiliar with French shops the assistants are as slow and as unhelpful as you'll find anywhere.
An engaging black guy came over to me and asked (in French) if he could help. His English was perfect so we soon started speaking in English.
He was Portuguese but he'd been working in Manchester for the last 8 years. He said he loved it there but things changed after the Brexit vote and he and his partner felt they had to move. So he came to France and turned a language he'd learned at school into one he could speak fluently and he was away.
A tiny little story of no particular signifcance other than it left me pissed off. We undervalue too many things and people that make the UK what it is, And for why? To appease some Little Englanders who have an opinon of their own worth that is in no way borne out by reality.
Another made up story.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly something I’ve heard a fair bit of from people at work. Your experience may be different, but that doesn’t meannit isn’t happening.
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
Shopworkers are exactly the kind of EU citizens that the government, the Labour party, the media and the general population have made clear are not welcome in the UK. It’s no great surprise that such people hear that message and leave.
Anyone already here has the right to stay and to apply for it for many years to come.
This was one of the first things we negotiated.
Yes, they can stay here in the knowledge that they are living among people who think they take jobs from locals, suppress wages, drive up rents, put undue strain on public services and come from countries that are little more than chips off the Soviet and Nazi blocks! Why on earth anyone should feel uncomfortable in such an environment is beyond me!!
To be honest lots of Spanish say much the same about Brits here and yet they keep coming. Most people are very apolitical. The British are no different from other Europeans.
Low level gripes are not the same as ceaseless stories in the press or political leaders making such claims. Both are very rare in Spain.
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
Yet 'raging at the storm' is exactly what many Brexiteers did for decades. Moaning, whinging, screaming, stamping their feet like petulant children. And that was just David Davis.
Given the behaviour of leavers over the years, you can't really blame remainers for acting in the same way now they've lost.
But the sad thing is many leavers are still acting in the same way in victory ...
And one of the keys to democracy is not having to 'accept' what happens, but peacefully arguing for change. Alastair and others are perfectly entitled to argue against what is happening if they want, just as leavers did.
Alastair is entitled to do as much boohooing as he wishes.
As regards EU workers, I think it is true that the UK is temporarily less attractive, as there is still significant uncertainty as to what will happen & what rights EU nationals will retain post-Brexit.
At the moment, I would not relocate here from elsewhere in the EU because of the uncertainty, more than anything else.
But after the outlines of a deal have been agreed, I expect that uncertainty will be removed.
Only one of my friends has relocated because of Brexit (or so he says). I was surprised at his destination (Barcelona) as the situation there seems far more volatile. Still, the eating & drinking are much better.
I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.
I think we're going to find the Vassal State uncongenial. Nevertheless it's the least bad option given where we are. And where we should never have got to.
I think we will move to quasi-vassal status - very soft Brexit (either that or a new vote). But then we will be in a cold war with the EU for a generation, as we fight for more freedom, and I think we will get it, in the end. Technology is on our side. National and supranational barriers will become increasingly irrelevant and large protectionist blocs will seem very 1990s.
Is the European Union protectionist? Maybe, but not in the way the Global Britain crowd pretended. There is no other alliance or trading arrangement that has done more to eliminate trading barriers between countries. It also has the deepest and briadest set of trading arrangements with third countries. Social protections are a different matter, but it would be a mistake to think these weren't popular. Europeans are scared of competing with countries like China on an equal basis. It's what keeps the EU at relatively high satisfaction levels, despite a sense of alienation with the organisation. The UK is no different in that respect. Leavers motivated by anti globalisation sentiment voted directly against their interest. But it does allow a potentially workable compact for the Vassal State. We accept doing what we are told in exchange for staying under the EU's protection umbrella.
Just reporting from the front line. Britain is no longer seen as an opening and welcoming place for the medium term. No one goes where they are not wanted, if they have any choice.
It is not just a matter of Visas. Currently EU and EEA nationals have equal recognition of professional qualifications. It took about a month for her to get GMC registration of her specialist qualifications, non EU take about a year. As most come intending just a year or two, even if they wind up staying longer, bureaucracy matters. France and Germany are both short of doctors, and much less hassle. Depreciation of Sterling and freezing of salaries here is a further factor.
Still, if it increases rates of pay for sturdy British yeoman doctors like myself, that is the point of Brexit.
If Britain was no longer seen as welcoming then given how many non-Britons are in the country we would see net emigration.
That's not happening. Instead we still at a statistically significant rate have net immigration at its highest ever levels.
The difference is that non EU migration is overwhelmingly from the developing world in africa and the subcontinent. The step up economically for such migrants overcomes the other doubts.
But we still have EU immigration not emigration.
Mostly bringing in family, rather than workers now, from what I see.
For the year ending March 2018, work continued to be the main reason that people migrated long-term to the UK, with 253,000 people arriving for work (Table 3). This made up 41% of all immigration in the year ending March 2018.
Migration to the UK for work increased between 2012 and the year ending June 2016 to a peak of 312,000, but has been decreasing since. This decrease has been largely accounted for by a fall in the number of people arriving in the UK looking for work, which was 77,000 in the year ending March 2018, down from 130,000 at the peak in the year ending June 2016.
This fall was due mainly to fewer EU citizens coming to the UK looking for work, with the number more than halving between the year ending June 2016 and the year ending June 2017 (Figure 3). This decrease was seen across all EU groupings (Figure 4a). The number of EU citizens arriving looking for work now appears to have stabilised at around 35,000 per year, except EU8 citizens where the decline has continued (Figure 4a).
Just reporting from the front line. Britain is no longer seen as an opening and welcoming place for the medium term. No one goes where they are not wanted, if they have any choice.
It is not just a matter of Visas. Currently EU and EEA nationals have equal recognition of professional qualifications. It took about a month for her to get GMC registration of her specialist qualifications, non EU take about a year. As most come intending just a year or two, even if they wind up staying longer, bureaucracy matters. France and Germany are both short of doctors, and much less hassle. Depreciation of Sterling and freezing of salaries here is a further factor.
Still, if it increases rates of pay for sturdy British yeoman doctors like myself, that is the point of Brexit.
If Britain was no longer seen as welcoming then given how many non-Britons are in the country we would see net emigration.
That's not happening. Instead we still at a statistically significant rate have net immigration at its highest ever levels.
Not from the EU, though.
The splits within immigration from the EU are interesting.
EU14 (Western Europe) immigrants have increased. EU8 (Eastern Europe) immigrants have decreased. EU2 (Romania & Bulgaria) immigrants have increased.
I suspect that the 'Poles' have become the mediocre middle of the workforce - not as skilled as the Western Europeans (or CANZAs) and not as willing to accept poor pay and conditions as the Romanians and Bulgarians (or those from the Third World).
On a purely anecdotal basis and on a very small sample Poles which we have attempted to employ this year at my workplace have been unreliable and with a poor work ethic - it seems they have become 'locals unwilling to do the work'.
“The phenomenon of populism cannot be wished away and one of its causes was the sense of a political class that does not listen. It is a lesson EU leaders are still failing to learn.”
I also liked:
This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.
Surely the main point made is that "Instead of recognising the narrowness of their win and seeking to unify the nation they pursued the most hardline of Brexits."
Leaving in name only is pointless, and does not reflect the referendum result. If we're to be members of the single market and customs union we might as well be members of the EU. If we're to leave the EU, we must leave the customs union.
Asking for compromise then seeking to have the EU continue to set laws and trade deals here, even for businesses that are solely domestic traders is a Constitution/Lisbon trick. People weren't fooled by changing the title and reordering the paragraphs.
"Oh, yes, we've left. See? No membership card. Yes, I suppose the EU do set our regulations. And yes, I suppose they do dictate our trade terms. And yes, I suppose we don't have any say at all any more, but that's all your fault, you wicked Leavers."
Leaving in name only respects the referendum result perfectly. All it said was leave the EU - so long as we do that, job done. Future governments can redefine our relationship in any way they wish. But of course they'll have to argue for each step away from the European mainstream on its merits. I have a feeling that won't be too easy to do.
True. 'Leaving in name only respects the referendum result perfectly' - since we only just voted Leave.
I went into a clothes shop in Nice yesterday. For those unfamiliar with French shops the assistants are as slow and as unhelpful as you'll find anywhere.
An engaging black guy came over to me and asked (in French) if he could help. His English was perfect so we soon started speaking in English.
He was Portuguese but he'd been working in Manchester for the last 8 years. He said he loved it there but things changed after the Brexit vote and he and his partner felt they had to move. So he came to France and turned a language he'd
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
I hear plentyd enough Greek politics to not believe politicians rhetoric. Our Italian locum has been offered a permanent post, but is in two minds. The outlook in Italy is pretty bleak too. Our only recent recruit from outside the EU is Israeli, and he came on an EU passport via grandparents.
Though this all should be celebrated as a feature rather than a bug in Brexitland.
It seems that the non existence of faeries is the lack of faith of those who never believed in them.
Wow. Another hardcore Remainer has countless anecdotes of how beastly Brexit is to the Europeans.
And this only weeks after Javid excluded NHS workers from the migration cap, meaning anyone with the right skills can now come worldwide.
Whereas a diehard Leaver like you has never heard any EU citizen say they now feel less welcome in the UK :-D
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
That’s good. Sadly not the case at my work - a medium sized global firm. There was genuine concern, if not shock and distress, amongst my EU colleagues at the time of the vote. The prevailing sentiment was that this was not the Britain they had been attracted to.
Today roughly 1/5 have left for our new Berlin office, I would say up to half have plans to go the rest are waiting and seeing. Some brits are in a similar boat. There are leavers in the office, but they are heavily outnumbered so keep quiet.
Brexit is so terrible, and the UK such an awful place, that net migration last year was about 270,000 people. UP from 2016, one of the highest figures ever recorded, and the ONS think that it is still rising. Even EU immigration alone is still at levels last seen in the distance past of, errr, 2012. It will likely rebound once there's some certainty about the deal.
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
Yet 'raging at the storm' is exactly what many Brexiteers did for decades. Moaning, whinging, screaming, stamping their feet like petulant children. And that was just David Davis.
Given the behaviour of leavers over the years, you can't really blame remainers for acting in the same way now they've lost.
But the sad thing is many leavers are still acting in the same way in victory ...
And one of the keys to democracy is not having to 'accept' what happens, but peacefully arguing for change. Alastair and others are perfectly entitled to argue against what is happening if they want, just as leavers did.
There are plenty who argue against Brexit - @SouthamObserver and @Foxy for example. I fear that @AlastairMeeks has a lot of anger bottled up in him and that’s not healthy
It was simply a comment from a concerned friend nothing else
And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.
As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.
Talk me through the compromises made with Remain voters.
Ask Mrs May. Read Chequers. Think about the backstop, the payments, the attempts to obtain friction free trade, the grovelling, the overwhelming respect given to every red line of the EU while ours are dropped. The desperation of this government for a soft Brexit is palpable in everything they do and almost everything they say.
Fair enough, such a deal may well be in our interests, but your bizarre perception that this government has not sought to address Remainers concerns is truly laughable. They have done nothing else.
Are you seriously claiming Leave voters voted to leave without a deal? Seeking an agreement with the EU is not pandering to Remain voters it is trying to ensure the country does not suffer an economic calamity. We grovel because that’s the position the Leave vote put us in. Just as Remainers warned.
No Joff, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that the deal this government has sought is one that addresses remainers concerns for the entirely sensible reason that some of those concerns were indeed legitimate. Those remainers who have engaged in the process such as May, Hammond and Hunt have shaped the deal we will sign. The Leavers such as DD and Boris have not. Would a more robust approach have produced a better outcome? We will never know. What we do know is that the deal will be entirely shaped by those remainers who have negotiated it.
I think that’s a little harsh on DD. Reports are he was hard at work on s set of plans but was sidelined by May.
You can say he lost the argument but I don’t think there’s evidence he didn’t engage
Whereas a diehard Leaver like you has never heard any EU citizen say they now feel less welcome in the UK :-D
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
That’s good. Sadly not the case at my work - a medium sized global firm. There was genuine concern, if not shock and distress, amongst my EU colleagues at the time of the vote. The prevailing sentiment was that this was not the Britain they had been attracted to.
Today roughly 1/5 have left for our new Berlin office, I would say up to half have plans to go the rest are waiting and seeing. Some brits are in a similar boat. There are leavers in the office, but they are heavily outnumbered so keep quiet.
I suspect such dynamics obtain quite often, whoever happens to be in the majority.
This makes the opposite point you think. If a minor politician in the house of Lords no one has heard of is a leading figure in referendum 2, then really most remainers have accepted the result.
Who would you say were the leading Remainers?
Well in the last campaign it was David Cameron, Corbyn, Clegg.
Corbyn?
"I may have been there, but I did not participate", as he said of another occasion......
Here's a recent tweet from Clegg, focussing on getting the best possible Brexit deal and not rerunning the referendum:
Not this again. Yes Corbyn did campaign for Remain. Clegg is finished as a politician force. "Ahead of the vote, Corbyn appeared on national television for a one-on-one interview, after having made 123 public appearances, including 60 in 22 days, which took place all over the country, and often in areas with strong Labour support. Eagle praised him at the time for, “pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired”."
Of all the curious things that the Referendum showed us, still the most charming is the honest faith of many Remainers that Jeremy Corbyn is one of them.
Jeremy Corbyn is living proof of Bob Monkhouse's famous dictum that 'Sincerity is key. Fake that and you've got it made.'
Flanders & Swann
Always be sincere - especially when you don’t mean it
To put the number of people from the EU employed in this country into context.
There are over a million more employed now than when a government was first elected to reduce annual net immigration to the tens of thousands.
And even more than that than when the Labour party was en mass cheering calls for 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
I rather wonder how much immigrants are concerned about Brexit when they weren't put off by anti-immigrant hostility from the Brown and Cameron governments.
To put the number of people from the EU employed in this country into context.
There are over a million more employed now than when a government was first elected to reduce annual net immigration to the tens of thousands.
And even more than that than when the Labour party was en mass cheering calls for 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
I rather wonder how much immigrants are concerned about Brexit when they weren't put off by anti-immigrant hostility from the Brown and Cameron governments.
I always liked Rory Bremner's line on Brown becoming PM and Darling becoming Chancellor:
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
Yet 'raging at the storm' is exactly what many Brexiteers did for decades. Moaning, whinging, screaming, stamping their feet like petulant children. And that was just David Davis.
Given the behaviour of leavers over the years, you can't really blame remainers for acting in the same way now they've lost.
But the sad thing is many leavers are still acting in the same way in victory ...
And one of the keys to democracy is not having to 'accept' what happens, but peacefully arguing for change. Alastair and others are perfectly entitled to argue against what is happening if they want, just as leavers did.
There are plenty who argue against Brexit - @SouthamObserver and @Foxy for example. I fear that @AlastairMeeks has a lot of anger bottled up in him and that’s not healthy
It was simply a comment from a concerned friend nothing else
I fear that membership of the EU is going to be an issue rather like the sovereignty of Parliament was in the 17th Century. I don’t think that we’ll actually have a Civil War.... at least I hope not......but I suspect it will be a running sore in our political life for many years to come.
Maybe, but maybe not. Membership of the EU was a sore from the moment that body was set up in 1993 and rammed through Parliament without a referendum. But as we'd probably have to join the Euro and maybe Schengen if we wanted to rejoin, and would lose Margaret Thatcher's rebate, it is equally possible that all but the most hardcore remainers would move on.
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
The only way we are likely to rejoin is if May ends up with No Deal in November (or more specifically no Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period) and the Commons voted for a second EU referendum which is held before we leave the EU at the end of March 2019 Brexit date and Remain wins and we stay in the EU on the same terms as before.
Otherwise the most we are likely to rejoin is the single market rather than the full EU
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
Charles I presume that when Jeremy Corbyn becomes our next Prime Minister you will accept it and move on from trying to oust him at the following GE.
Casino Royale Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
I'd be surprised if anyone voiced anti-Brexit views in your presence despite what you tell us. You are one of the most dogmatic leavers on PB. There are good reasons that some people supported Brexit but I'm afraid you are one of the small minority that personify everything that remainers despise about it.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
I hear plenty of it from the EU is Israeli, and he came on an EU passport via grandparents.
Though this all should be celebrated as a feature rather than a bug in Brexitland.
It seems that the non existence of faeries is the lack of faith of those who never believed in them.
Wow. Another hardcore Remainer has countless anecdotes of how beastly Brexit is to the Europeans.
And this only weeks after Javid excluded NHS workers from the migration cap, meaning anyone with the right skills can now come worldwide.
Whereas a diehard Leaver like you has never heard any EU citizen say they now feel less welcome in the UK :-D
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
Yes, you undoubtedly know your wife and her friends better than I do. Equally, though, it’s unlikely you know many of my EU friends or work colleagues - or Foxy’s. What puzzles me is that while I do not doubt that you are entirely truthful when recounting your interactions you cannot accept the veracity of experiences that run counter to your own.
^^This.
I'm still pissed off with CR for calling me a liar when I recounted what my wife and her circle of friends had been encountering. Simply because it was different from his experience with a different social group elsewhere in the country and conflicted with what he wanted to be true.
But he's immune to confirmation bias and totally objective. Of course.
Brexit is so terrible, and the UK such an awful place, that net migration last year was about 270,000 people. UP from 2016, one of the highest figures ever recorded, and the ONS think that it is still rising. Even EU immigration alone is still at levels last seen in the distance past of, errr, 2012. It will likely rebound once there's some certainty about the deal.
This is why FoM can be fudged. No-one in the government, business or wider Establishment has any serious interest in limiting immigration, despite the rhetoric.
Article 50, as its British europhile author READILY confesses, is explicitly designed to be SO painful, and SO legally favourable to the EU, that no sane nation would ever consider using it, hence the mess we are in.
The British weren't obliged to use it; The EU side might have said they wouldn't negotiate until it was pulled, but the British could at least have agreed on what *they* wanted to do first instead of activating it then spending 15 months arguing with themselves. TMay did it when she did because the Brexit enthusiasts insisted.
Anyhow, imagine Article 50 wasn't a thing. Any change of status would require a new treaty, with the unanimous agreement of all the member states. Anyone could veto it, either to hold up Brexit or to try to extract concessions. The Irish and the Danes might well have referendums about it. The British really would be head-butting the door until they got brain damage.
I went into a clothes shop in Nice yesterday. For those unfamiliar with French shops the assistants are as slow and as unhelpful as you'll find anywhere.
An engaging black guy came over to me and asked (in French) if he could help. His English was perfect so we soon started speaking in English.
He was Portuguese but he'd been working in Manchester for the last 8 years. He said he loved it A tiny little story of no particular signifcance other than it left me pissed off. We undervalue too many things and people that make the UK what it is, And for why? To appease some Little Englanders who have an opinon of their own worth that is in no way borne out by reality.
Another made up story.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly something I’ve heard a fair bit of from people at work. Your experience may be different, but that doesn’t meannit isn’t happening.
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
Shopworkers are exactly the kind of EU citizens that the government, the Labour party, the media and the general population have made clear are not welcome in the UK. It’s no great surprise that such people hear that message and leave.
Anyone already here has the right to stay and to apply for it for many years to come.
This was one of the first things we negotiated.
Yes, they can stay here in the knowledge that they are living among people who think they take jobs from locals, suppress wages, drive up rents, put undue strain on public services and come from countries that are little more than chips off the Soviet and Nazi blocks! Why on earth anyone should feel uncomfortable in such an environment is beyond me!!
To be honest lots of Spanish say much the same about Brits here and yet they keep coming. Most people are very apolitical. The British are no different from other Europeans.
Low level gripes are not the same as ceaseless stories in the press or political leaders making such claims. Both are very rare in Spain.
Not where I live. Polling surveys consistently show the UK as more tolerant than most EU countries. The press are not the people .
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
It's a much more existential issue for a country like the UK.
I think I’m going to regret this ... but do explain.
Meaning that for Norway or Switzerland, making a decision to stand aloof from European integration while enjoying the benefits of it isn't a challenge to their modern national identity in quite the same way.
For the UK it raises all sorts of questions about who we are: Are we a European country or part of an international 'Anglosphere'? Are we a union of nations or one nation? Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
It's a much more existential issue for a country like the UK.
I think I’m going to regret this ... but do explain.
Meaning that for Norway or Switzerland, making a decision to stand aloof from European integration while enjoying the benefits of it isn't a challenge to their modern national identity in quite the same way.
For the UK it raises all sorts of questions about who we are: Are we a European country or part of an international 'Anglosphere'? Are we a union of nations or one nation? Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
if were that fundamental to the European identity youd wonder why the EU made no effort to keep us in
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
It's a much more existential issue for a country like the UK.
I think I’m going to regret this ... but do explain.
Meaning that for Norway or Switzerland, making a decision to stand aloof from European integration while enjoying the benefits of it isn't a challenge to their modern national identity in quite the same way.
For the UK it raises all sorts of questions about who we are: Are we a European country or part of an international 'Anglosphere'? Are we a union of nations or one nation? Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
This seems nonsense.
The UK (a federation of 4 nations) seems very analogous to Switzerland (with its 4 distant linguistic traditions). Switzerland has significant forces that could cause it to divide into Francophone or German-speaking parts, but it doesn’t because power is very much more significantly devolved than in the UK.
If the UK ended up like Switzerland -- prosperous, neutral and not involving itself unnecessarily in quarrels in the Middle East, with power devolved from the centre down to the 4 nations, highly democratic, socially cohesive, & outside the centralizing EU -- we would be in a much better place.
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
It's a much more existential issue for a country like the UK.
I think I’m going to regret this ... but do explain.
Meaning that for Norway or Switzerland, making a decision to stand aloof from European integration while enjoying the benefits of it isn't a challenge to their modern national identity in quite the same way.
For the UK it raises all sorts of questions about who we are: Are we a European country or part of an international 'Anglosphere'? Are we a union of nations or one nation? Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
This seems nonsense.
The UK (a federation of 4 nations) seems very analogous to Switzerland (with its 4 distant linguistic traditions). Switzerland has significant forces that could cause it to divide into Francophone or German-speaking parts, but it doesn’t because power is very much more significantly devolved than in the UK.
If the UK ended up like Switzerland -- prosperous, neutral and not involving itself unnecessarily in quarrels in the Middle East, with power devolved from the centre down to the 4 nations, highly democratic, socially cohesive, & outside the centralizing EU -- we would be in a much better place.
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
It's a much more existential issue for a country like the UK.
I think I’m going to regret this ... but do explain.
Meaning that for Norway or Switzerland, making a decision to stand aloof from European integration while enjoying the benefits of it isn't a challenge to their modern national identity in quite the same way.
Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
I'm pretty sure that was the point of the referendum, and we got an answer.
Casino Royale Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
I'd be surprised if anyone voiced anti-Brexit views in your presence despite what you tell us. You are one of the most dogmatic leavers on PB. There are good reasons that some people supported Brexit but I'm afraid you are one of the small minority that personify everything that remainers despise about it.
Bollocks. No-one knows how I voted.
You simply want to project your hate for Brexit onto me personally. Sad, but unsurprising given the the quality of the postings you make on here.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
I hear plenty of it from the EU is Israeli, and he came on an EU passport via grandparents.
Though this all should be celebrated as a feature rather than a bug in Brexitland.
It seems that the non existence of faeries is the lack of faith of those who never believed in them.
Wow. Another hardcore Remainer has countless anecdotes of how beastly Brexit is to the Europeans.
And this only weeks after Javid excluded NHS workers from the migration cap, meaning anyone with the right skills can now come worldwide.
Whereas a diehard Leaver like you has never heard any EU citizen say they now feel less welcome in the UK :-D
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
Yes, you undoubtedly know your wife and her friends better than I do. Equally, though, it’s unlikely you know many of my EU friends or work colleagues - or Foxy’s. What puzzles me is that while I do not doubt that you are entirely truthful when recounting your interactions you cannot accept the veracity of experiences that run counter to your own.
^^This.
I'm still pissed off with CR for calling me a liar when I recounted what my wife and her circle of friends had been encountering. Simply because it was different from his experience with a different social group elsewhere in the country and conflicted with what he wanted to be true.
But he's immune to confirmation bias and totally objective. Of course.
Also I understand that most voters in Norway and Switzerland view their status as settled.
It's a much more existential issue for a country like the UK.
I think I’m going to regret this ... but do explain.
Meaning that for Norway or Switzerland, making a decision to stand aloof from European integration while enjoying the benefits of it isn't a challenge to their modern national identity in quite the same way.
Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
I'm pretty sure that was the point of the referendum, and we got an answer.
Did we? There was certainly a group of Brexiteers who thought we would overturn the EU in some kind of "democratic liberation" as countries "who agree with us" took our side against Brussels.
I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.
I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
Alastair - life moves on.
You’d be well advised to accept whatever happens when it happens. Raging at the storm doesn’t achieve anything
Charles I presume that when Jeremy Corbyn becomes our next Prime Minister you will accept it and move on from trying to oust him at the following GE.
That's the point. at the following GE
Not before he's had a chance to implement his manifesto.
Not because he told fibs and there were spending irregularities so we must redo it now
Not because we've got an online petition/demos/dogs demo to redo it now
But
at the following GE
Same with Brexit.
By all means, come 2022, parties are welcome to campaign to rejoin - in the meantime, lets implement what the voters voted for in 2016. And not try to do an end-run behind it because we don't like the decision.
I went into a clothes shop in Nice yesterday. For those unfamiliar with French shops the assistants are as slow and as unhelpful as you'll find anywhere.
Another made up story.
Why on Earth would he make that up? You might not like the fact that a lot of Europeans feel less unwelcome in the UK after the referendum, but that doesn’t make it untrue. It’s certainly something I’ve heard a fair bit of from people at work. Your experience may be different, but that doesn’t meannit isn’t happening.
I’ve heard none of it from any people at work.
He’d make it up because he’s Roger, and makes emotive stuff up - and delusional predictions - all the time.
Shopworkers are exactly the kind of EU citizens that the government, the Labour party, the media and the general population have made clear are not welcome in the UK. It’s no great surprise that such people hear that message and leave.
Anyone already here has the right to stay and to apply for it for many years to come.
This was one of the first things we negotiated.
Yes, they can stay here in the knowledge that they are living among people who think they take jobs from locals, suppress wages, drive up rents, put undue strain on public services and come from countries that are little more than chips off the Soviet and Nazi blocks! Why on earth anyone should feel uncomfortable in such an environment is beyond me!!
To be honest lots of Spanish say much the same about Brits here and yet they keep coming. Most people are very apolitical. The British are no different from other Europeans.
Low level gripes are not the same as ceaseless stories in the press or political leaders making such claims. Both are very rare in Spain.
Not where I live. Polling surveys consistently show the UK as more tolerant than most EU countries. The press are not the people .
It really 'doesn't compute' - how could 'nasty xenophobic racist Little Britian' actually be more tolerant than those superior European neighbours whose civilising embrace we're churlishly eschewing? A whole world view collapses when it collides with the data:
Casino Royale Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
I'd be surprised if anyone voiced anti-Brexit views in your presence despite what you tell us. You are one of the most dogmatic leavers on PB. There are good reasons that some people supported Brexit but I'm afraid you are one of the small minority that personify everything that remainers despise about it.
Bollocks. No-one knows how I voted.
You simply want to project your hate for Brexit onto me personally. Sad, but unsurprising given the the quality of the postings you make on here.
No one knows how you voted. Pull the other other one. You come across as a nasty piece pot work with a massive chip on your shoulder.
Comments
No raging is involved - I've long ago made my peace with this. It's desperately sad but there it is.
Given the behaviour of leavers over the years, you can't really blame remainers for acting in the same way now they've lost.
But the sad thing is many leavers are still acting in the same way in victory ...
And one of the keys to democracy is not having to 'accept' what happens, but peacefully arguing for change. Alastair and others are perfectly entitled to argue against what is happening if they want, just as leavers did.
Mr. Eagles, yes. You just said leaving without a deal wouldn't honour the result, so, logically, if the EU offered only one deal, and it was terrible, you'd still sign it.
It's better if we get a good deal, but if we're offered something worse than leaving on WTO terms then it'd be daft to sign it.
Mr. Jessop, there's something in that. But there are genuine grievances too, most notably over the reneged referendum on Lisbon. If the political class had kept that promise, we'd still be in the EU.
The UK will continue to get richer in absolute terms but any objective take on the UK right now would conclude that it is in a period of sharp relative decline both in economic terms and in terms of international influence. There is a good chance that the UK will cease to exist in its current form in the short to medium term.
https://twitter.com/bbcthree/status/1049318995697041408
As regards EU workers, I think it is true that the UK is temporarily less attractive, as there is still significant uncertainty as to what will happen & what rights EU nationals will retain post-Brexit.
At the moment, I would not relocate here from elsewhere in the EU because of the uncertainty, more than anything else.
But after the outlines of a deal have been agreed, I expect that uncertainty will be removed.
Only one of my friends has relocated because of Brexit (or so he says). I was surprised at his destination (Barcelona) as the situation there seems far more volatile. Still, the eating & drinking are much better.
For the year ending March 2018, work continued to be the main reason that people migrated long-term to the UK, with 253,000 people arriving for work (Table 3). This made up 41% of all immigration in the year ending March 2018.
Migration to the UK for work increased between 2012 and the year ending June 2016 to a peak of 312,000, but has been decreasing since. This decrease has been largely accounted for by a fall in the number of people arriving in the UK looking for work, which was 77,000 in the year ending March 2018, down from 130,000 at the peak in the year ending June 2016.
This fall was due mainly to fewer EU citizens coming to the UK looking for work, with the number more than halving between the year ending June 2016 and the year ending June 2017 (Figure 3). This decrease was seen across all EU groupings (Figure 4a). The number of EU citizens arriving looking for work now appears to have stabilised at around 35,000 per year, except EU8 citizens where the decline has continued (Figure 4a).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
EU14 (Western Europe) immigrants have increased.
EU8 (Eastern Europe) immigrants have decreased.
EU2 (Romania & Bulgaria) immigrants have increased.
I suspect that the 'Poles' have become the mediocre middle of the workforce - not as skilled as the Western Europeans (or CANZAs) and not as willing to accept poor pay and conditions as the Romanians and Bulgarians (or those from the Third World).
On a purely anecdotal basis and on a very small sample Poles which we have attempted to employ this year at my workplace have been unreliable and with a poor work ethic - it seems they have become 'locals unwilling to do the work'.
'Leaving in name only respects the referendum result perfectly' - since we only just voted Leave.
It was simply a comment from a concerned friend nothing else
The situation in Italy doesn't look good. Banking crisis coming?
You can say he lost the argument but I don’t think there’s evidence he didn’t engage
Always be sincere - especially when you don’t mean it
There are over a million more employed now than when a government was first elected to reduce annual net immigration to the tens of thousands.
And even more than that than when the Labour party was en mass cheering calls for 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
I rather wonder how much immigrants are concerned about Brexit when they weren't put off by anti-immigrant hostility from the Brown and Cameron governments.
"British jobs for Scottish people."
Otherwise the most we are likely to rejoin is the single market rather than the full EU
Casino Royale
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
I'd be surprised if anyone voiced anti-Brexit views in your presence despite what you tell us. You are one of the most dogmatic leavers on PB. There are good reasons that some people supported Brexit but I'm afraid you are one of the small minority that personify everything that remainers despise about it.
I'm still pissed off with CR for calling me a liar when I recounted what my wife and her circle of friends had been encountering. Simply because it was different from his experience with a different social group elsewhere in the country and conflicted with what he wanted to be true.
But he's immune to confirmation bias and totally objective. Of course.
For the UK it raises all sorts of questions about who we are: Are we a European country or part of an international 'Anglosphere'? Are we a union of nations or one nation? Do we want to be outside the EU or break up the EU?
The UK (a federation of 4 nations) seems very analogous to Switzerland (with its 4 distant linguistic traditions). Switzerland has significant forces that could cause it to divide into Francophone or German-speaking parts, but it doesn’t because power is very much more significantly devolved than in the UK.
If the UK ended up like Switzerland -- prosperous, neutral and not involving itself unnecessarily in quarrels in the Middle East, with power devolved from the centre down to the 4 nations, highly democratic, socially cohesive, & outside the centralizing EU -- we would be in a much better place.
Correct. And I am married to an EU national and know several in her social circle and mine.
I am way more exposed to their views than the vast majority on here.
I'd be surprised if anyone voiced anti-Brexit views in your presence despite what you tell us. You are one of the most dogmatic leavers on PB. There are good reasons that some people supported Brexit but I'm afraid you are one of the small minority that personify everything that remainers despise about it.
Bollocks. No-one knows how I voted.
You simply want to project your hate for Brexit onto me personally. Sad, but unsurprising given the the quality of the postings you make on here.
Not before he's had a chance to implement his manifesto.
Not because he told fibs and there were spending irregularities so we must redo it now
Not because we've got an online petition/demos/dogs demo to redo it now
But
at the following GE
Same with Brexit.
By all means, come 2022, parties are welcome to campaign to rejoin - in the meantime, lets implement what the voters voted for in 2016. And not try to do an end-run behind it because we don't like the decision.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8b6c82cc8294
I'd be surprised if anyone voiced anti-Brexit views in your presence despite what you tell us. You are one of the most dogmatic leavers on PB. There are good reasons that some people supported Brexit but I'm afraid you are one of the small minority that personify everything that remainers despise about it.
Bollocks. No-one knows how I voted.
You simply want to project your hate for Brexit onto me personally. Sad, but unsurprising given the the quality of the postings you make on here.
No one knows how you voted. Pull the other other one. You come across as a nasty piece pot work with a massive chip on your shoulder.