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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The betting chances of LAB winning the next election edge down

SystemSystem Posts: 12,173
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The betting chances of LAB winning the next election edge down to the lowest level since GE2017

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  • I'm not sure whether this price change is very significant or not, but I find it somewhat surprising. One would have thought that Theresa May hitting some bumps in her Brexit road, and the Labour conference suggesting that Labour are making some effort to seem serious, would have nudged the betting in the opposite direction.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited September 2018
    Not so surprsing - Labour are barely ahead and often behind in recent polling. Nobody has come back from that.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    I'm not sure whether this price change is very significant or not, but I find it somewhat surprising. One would have thought that Theresa May hitting some bumps in her Brexit road, and the Labour conference suggesting that Labour are making some effort to seem serious, would have nudged the betting in the opposite direction.

    Hey! My stolen first made pretty much the same point. The sooner we get VAR the better.
    Labour got through the Conference without any serious own goals. The Tories have yet to so do.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
  • Floater said:
    Still lots of doubt, might not have been the Russian state.....Mr S. Milne of North London...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Floater said:
    Still lots of doubt, might not have been the Russian state.....Mr S. Milne of North London...
    The original passport was a CIA fake, and the whole operation has been planned for many years as part of an international Jewish conspiracy.

    Mr C. Murray of some random place where the laws of reality don't apply.
  • I'm not sure whether this price change is very significant or not, but I find it somewhat surprising. One would have thought that Theresa May hitting some bumps in her Brexit road, and the Labour conference suggesting that Labour are making some effort to seem serious, would have nudged the betting in the opposite direction.

    Given the higher than normal number of imponderables ahead of the next election: Brexit, timing, party leader identities, I think that the betting odds say more about those who are betting than they do about the current political situation.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited September 2018
    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?
  • I do play this market on Betfair. You don’t have to tie up money indefinitely if you lay back and forth against sentiment,

    I lay, I don’t back. That way you can build up nice positions on the non-trivial possibility of a split of one or other main party (and from time to time lay that too to excitable centrist dads).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    The odds are against a Labour majority or even Labour winning most seats.

    However Corbyn still has a strong chance of becoming PM with SNP support and support from the SNP on getting key legislation through.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018
    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose out like the greedy capitalist pigs they are, after exploiting public utilities for their own enrichment why should they get any compensation cry Corbynistas?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    So I've been away from news contact all day long - how was Corbyn's speech? Barnstorming? Terrifying?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
  • Floater said:
    Unmasked by a bunch of journalists who, and let's assume they are right, have scooped the British government and the police. Why did the face-recognition technology they are so keen to unleash on Joe Public fail to match the cctv pictures to a finite number of Russian hoods? Why was the identification not made on landing? Do we not even bother to watch Aeroflot flights into London? Did a previous Home Secretary cut MI5's budget? Was Bodyguard a documentary?

    Oh no, it's all right. It says in the Telegraph that plod does know their names, and presumably decided not to announce them for, well, reasons.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018
    kle4 said:

    So I've been away from news contact all day long - how was Corbyn's speech? Barnstorming? Terrifying?

    He promised no more reckless wars like Iraq and Libya but still to act tough with Myanmar and Israel and bring peace to Syria with his Gandalf stare!
  • ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
  • kle4 said:

    So I've been away from news contact all day long - how was Corbyn's speech? Barnstorming? Terrifying?

    No idea - watched the last three episodes of bodyguard
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited September 2018
    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Have they costed that though?

    Or is it several billion they haven't allowed for?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
  • Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    But a lot of short term capital to spend on largesse.
  • ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    Of course teachers don’t have pension funds. We rely on the state keeping its word/not going bankrupt...
  • Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    Comrade Corbyn takes all your assets and money and gives you an allowance to live in his UK idea of Venezeula
  • Renewable Power to the People!!!!

    :lol:
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,958
    When the Guardian's taking the piss because you're being too PC, you know you've screwed up.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    So I've been away from news contact all day long - how was Corbyn's speech? Barnstorming? Terrifying?

    He promised no more reckless wars like Iraq and Libya but still to act tough with Myanmar and Israel and bring peace to Syria with his Gandalf stare!
    That would be...something to see.
  • Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    Comrade Corbyn takes all your assets and money and gives you an allowance to live in his UK idea of Venezuela
    Funny how he missed out on his naughty list of brutal regimes Venezuela.....
  • Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    But a lot of short term capital to spend on largesse.
    It is cover the march of the loft laggers ?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
  • Brett Kavanaugh's price has swung back. It is currently 8/11 not to be confirmed and even money to be confirmed. This afternoon, not confirmed was backed in from 5/6 to 1/5 and perhaps even shorter. What's changed in the last couple of hours? Or is it just that punters (and odds-compilers) have remembered that there is no popular vote, just the senate which will presumably split along party lines.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Jesus H Christ...Hazard is off the radar good..
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    Why would the state directing personal savings towards the preferred projects of politicians be a problem?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Brett Kavanaugh's price has swung back. It is currently 8/11 not to be confirmed and even money to be confirmed. This afternoon, not confirmed was backed in from 5/6 to 1/5 and perhaps even shorter. What's changed in the last couple of hours? Or is it just that punters (and odds-compilers) have remembered that there is no popular vote, just the senate which will presumably split along party lines.

    Republicans have made it clear they are going to steam ahead with this nomination no matter what.

    Jeff Flake had been scheduled to give a speech on the floor of the Senate and everyone anticipated a announcement that he'd be a no vote but instead it was a typical Sad Jeff Flake moment.
  • rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
    Mind you, it would be funny to see outraged pb Tories cheering on the European Court of Human Rights.
  • The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016
  • kle4 said:

    So I've been away from news contact all day long - how was Corbyn's speech? Barnstorming? Terrifying?

    Corbyn's speech was well received at the time but after several hours, critics from the right have at last worked out what they don't like about it.
  • “I always think you should not look at the next contest through the prism of the last one”

    Funny you say that, because I have thought last elections are linked to the next one, for example 97 especially bad for the Tories because tired and unfresh government cheated death in 92. Another example, what happened to the CDU when Kohl wasn’t being as honest as the opposition about cost of unification, in that example and Tories in ninetytwo what was said to win was remembered by voters, who react to the feeling they’ve been had.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    Why would the state directing personal savings towards the preferred projects of politicians be a problem?
    Because comrade a lot of those personal savings are done by greedy, narrow minded, selfish, self obsessed, penny pinching individuals who are just mean spirited types, and mostly probably vote Tory..but if they vote Labour are hypocrites
  • GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    Sell, sell, sell would make nationalisation cheaper, of course.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Labour were very cautious with their manifesto at the last election given Corbyn was the leader.

    I think the next election should Corbyn still be leader and his shadow chancellor remain in post, the manifesto will be of a very ideologically left-wing hue. Maybe they needed time to take full control of the Labour party and only now are we seeing the extremist dogma being packaged as policy.


    I don't think past election campaigns can be a guide to a future contest as the dynamics will be different. Surely the type of policies being advocated will guarantee a split in the Labour party will be deeper and wider than many perceive possible.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
    Mind you, it would be funny to see outraged pb Tories cheering on the European Court of Human Rights.
    Very sound Tory principle that A1P1.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    Why would the state directing personal savings towards the preferred projects of politicians be a problem?
    :)

    Anti-libertarians unite?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    tyson said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    Why would the state directing personal savings towards the preferred projects of politicians be a problem?
    Because comrade a lot of those personal savings are done by greedy, narrow minded, selfish, self obsessed, penny pinching individuals who are just mean spirited types, and mostly probably vote Tory..but if they vote Labour are hypocrites
    Presumably you’ve voluntarily paid more tax this year? You’d be one of just 200 people to do so...
  • Floater said:
    Unmasked by a bunch of journalists who, and let's assume they are right, have scooped the British government and the police. Why did the face-recognition technology they are so keen to unleash on Joe Public fail to match the cctv pictures to a finite number of Russian hoods? Why was the identification not made on landing? Do we not even bother to watch Aeroflot flights into London? Did a previous Home Secretary cut MI5's budget? Was Bodyguard a documentary?

    Oh no, it's all right. It says in the Telegraph that plod does know their names, and presumably decided not to announce them for, well, reasons.
    My dear fellow, you don't seriously think that a bunch of journalists have access to all those internal and undoubtedly genuine Russian state databases, do you?

    Can I sell you some McDonnell-proof investments?
  • Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Or, more to the point, NHS and teachers' very generous pension schemes?
  • tyson said:

    Jesus H Christ...Hazard is off the radar good..

    That goal was pure magic
  • The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    The old standby, never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

    Though I don't know if it necessarily applies here, because a second referendum has been consistently denied, and I'm not sure it being said louder automatically counts toward anything.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    He’s implying that the lady* protests too much

    * per last thread that description is in no way exclusionary and anyone who wishes to self identify as an excessive protestor is welcome to do so
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited September 2018
    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited September 2018

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
  • The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    I don't believe him, and as soon as we have a withdrawal agreement, his argument about a second referendum undermining negotiations will be void.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    To be fair, it is sexist, demeaning both make and female. It is however quite funny by means of highlighting such sexism and much humour is based on transgression of social norms.

    in other news:

    It looks like Bellingcat is the British Fancy Bears...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
  • kle4 said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    The old standby, never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

    Though I don't know if it necessarily applies here, because a second referendum has been consistently denied, and I'm not sure it being said louder automatically counts toward anything.
    I will put it down to William's desperation. A second referendum is not going to happen. Majority in HOC against anyway. Last night Carwyn Jones, Wales First Minister, and Stephen Kinnock both publically ruled it out adding to the many labour voices
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited September 2018

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    I don't believe him, and as soon as we have a withdrawal agreement, his argument about a second referendum undermining negotiations will be void.
    The thing is you cannot accept a lost cause
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    kle4 said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    The old standby, never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

    Though I don't know if it necessarily applies here, because a second referendum has been consistently denied, and I'm not sure it being said louder automatically counts toward anything.
    I will put it down to William's desperation. A second referendum is not going to happen. Majority in HOC against anyway. Last night Carwyn Jones, Wales First Minister, and Stephen Kinnock both publically ruled it out adding to the many labour voices
    If No Deal I think a second referendum is highly likely, provided a deal, or at least a withdrawal agreement and transition period in which a FTA deal can be negotiated, I think a second referendum will be avoided
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.

    To join thriving Eurozone economies like Greece with 20% unemployment, Spain with 16% unemployment and Italy with 10% unemployment you mean?


    In any case that is not really reality, EU officials have made clear if we voted to rejoin the EU while we would lose our rebate, fair enough as that was exclusive to the UK, we would not be required to join the Euro or Schengen which is also only fair as several existing EU nations are outside the Euro and Schengen
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
    Provided Corbyn does not pass a law prohibiting compensation, in the UK Parliament is sovereign, we have no written constitution like Argentina
  • HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    The old standby, never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

    Though I don't know if it necessarily applies here, because a second referendum has been consistently denied, and I'm not sure it being said louder automatically counts toward anything.
    I will put it down to William's desperation. A second referendum is not going to happen. Majority in HOC against anyway. Last night Carwyn Jones, Wales First Minister, and Stephen Kinnock both publically ruled it out adding to the many labour voices
    If No Deal I think a second referendum is highly likely, provided a deal, or at least a withdrawal agreement and transition period in which a FTA deal can be negotiated, I think a second referendum will be avoided
    You may just agree with me on this but the most recent polling I saw was that Canada or No deal accounted for nearly 50%.

    I still do not see a referendum - it would divide us even more if tgat is possible
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    To be fair the last time a politician ruled out a vote, she called one shortly after.
  • HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.

    To join thriving Eurozone economies like Greece with 20% unemployment, Spain with 16% unemployment and Italy with 10% unemployment you mean?


    In any case that is not really reality, EU officials have made clear if we voted to rejoin the EU while we would lose our rebate, fair enough as that was exclusive to the UK, we would not be required to join the Euro or Schengen which is also only fair as several existing EU nations are outside the Euro and Schengen
    Don't forget France with 9% unemployment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    Yes and anyone who has any significant assets and wealth would be well advised to shove as much of it over to Monaco or the Caymans as they can before the next general election just in case Corbyn does get in
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.

    To join thriving Eurozone economies like Greece with 20% unemployment, Spain with 16% unemployment and Italy with 10% unemployment you mean?


    In any case that is not really reality, EU officials have made clear if we voted to rejoin the EU while we would lose our rebate, fair enough as that was exclusive to the UK, we would not be required to join the Euro or Schengen which is also only fair as several existing EU nations are outside the Euro and Schengen
    Don't forget France with 9% unemployment.
    Yes add them too, Germany of course is doing fine with 4% unemployment as we now have but Germany runs the show
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.

    To join thriving Eurozone economies like Greece with 20% unemployment, Spain with 16% unemployment and Italy with 10% unemployment you mean?


    It's not my theory
  • HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
    Provided Corbyn does not pass a law prohibiting compensation, in the UK Parliament is sovereign, we have no written constitution like Argentina
    The Courts can stop him including the ECHR ironically
  • Mortimer said:

    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.

    It's an interesting point in terms of financial planning, though. The way I look at it is that a Corbyn/McDonnell government would undoubtedly be confiscatory, but also be fairly short-lived. Therefore for planning purposes, one needs to think about the ranking of targets they would go for, in the hope of escaping the worst effects before reality catches up and they are booted out. I don't think existing pension assets would be early targets, although pension allowances for everyone other than public-sector workers (already treated disproportionately favourably compared with most of the rest of us) certainly would*.

    If I were a hard-left Chancellor wanting to raid assets, I'd go for ISAs before pensions. But before that, income tax, inheritance tax, Corporation tax, and property taxes.

    * For that matter, Spreadsheet Phil might get there first. As always, if you're a higher-rate taxpayer planning a pension contribution, best get it in before the budget, 29th October this year. Nothing to lose if you can do it!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    I don't believe him, and as soon as we have a withdrawal agreement, his argument about a second referendum undermining negotiations will be void.
    I’d love to stay and debate, but there’s a knocking on the front door and I just don’t believe it’s not Kylie Minogue and Cheryl Cole wanting to come round and party with me.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.
    News flash.

    Some people have SIPPs.

    Pensions are good for society.

    They are not for the benefit of the state. They are for the benefit of the individual.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2018

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.
    Why would McDonnell want to do that if there's no confiscatory effect?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    The old standby, never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

    Though I don't know if it necessarily applies here, because a second referendum has been consistently denied, and I'm not sure it being said louder automatically counts toward anything.
    I will put it down to William's desperation. A second referendum is not going to happen. Majority in HOC against anyway. Last night Carwyn Jones, Wales First Minister, and Stephen Kinnock both publically ruled it out adding to the many labour voices
    If No Deal I think a second referendum is highly likely, provided a deal, or at least a withdrawal agreement and transition period in which a FTA deal can be negotiated, I think a second referendum will be avoided
    You may just agree with me on this but the most recent polling I saw was that Canada or No deal accounted for nearly 50%.

    I still do not see a referendum - it would divide us even more if tgat is possible
    In the event of No Deal, Remain would win a second EU referendum 55% to 45%

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7

    A Canada Deal has longer term viability though and is generally the most favoured form of Brexit in most polls
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    tyson said:

    Jesus H Christ...Hazard is off the radar good..

    That goal was pure magic
    He is superb....you have Pogba, we have deBruyne, Liverpool have Salah, Barcelona Messi.Madrid Modric...but Hazard is the best of the lot.....

  • glwglw Posts: 9,916

    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.

    More secure with McDonnell in charge of the economy? You must be joking.
  • Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Or, more to the point, NHS and teachers' very generous pension schemes?
    Not as generous as they used to be. Back last millennium you could retire once you hit fifty...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    I have to say I agree with Rudd on that, I do not think we can go to No Deal with all the potential damage to the economy and the Union without a second EU referendum providing a mandate for it.

    The 52% who voted Leave were certainly not all voting for No Deal Brexit
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
    Provided Corbyn does not pass a law prohibiting compensation, in the UK Parliament is sovereign, we have no written constitution like Argentina
    The Courts can stop him including the ECHR ironically
    Technically of course Parliament could even withdraw from the ECHR
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    HYUFD said:

    I have to say I agree with Rudd on that, I do not think we can go to No Deal with all the potential damage to the economy and the Union without a second EU referendum providing a mandate for it.

    The 52% who voted Leave were certainly not all voting for No Deal Brexit
    Agreed. In the event of what looks like no deal, previously unpalatable options may well open up.
  • TM met Trump tonight and they have announced a trade deal is on the agenda.

    Interesting another report, and I cannot recall whether it was the Guardian or Sky, states that individual EU nation states are so concerned of a no deal impact that they intend doing bi lateral deals with the UK over the heads of the commission

    Reality hits politics
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.

    To join thriving Eurozone economies like Greece with 20% unemployment, Spain with 16% unemployment and Italy with 10% unemployment you mean?


    It's not my theory
    Not reality either, rejoining the EU means losing the rebate, not joining the Eurozone
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have to say I agree with Rudd on that, I do not think we can go to No Deal with all the potential damage to the economy and the Union without a second EU referendum providing a mandate for it.

    The 52% who voted Leave were certainly not all voting for No Deal Brexit
    Agreed. In the event of what looks like no deal, previously unpalatable options may well open up.
    I say again, the 'lifeboat' of a new vote may be May's only option in the end.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Thanks HYUFD and ydoethur

    So, if someone has shares in a utility company and it really did look like a Jezza government was imminent it might be an idea to "Sell, Sell, Sell" then? ;)

    It is instructive to look at what happened in Argentina when the government renationalised (or appropriated) the national oil company YPF. They passed a law returning it to state ownership but were - inevitably - sued in various jurisdictions. Eventually they discovered that there were consequences and grudgingly paid up to shareholders.

    I would expect the same to happen here.
    Provided Corbyn does not pass a law prohibiting compensation, in the UK Parliament is sovereign, we have no written constitution like Argentina
    The Courts can stop him including the ECHR ironically
    Technically of course Parliament could even withdraw from the ECHR
    Not likely
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.
    Having McDonnell look after my pension savings would be like McDonalds looking after the well being of my cow.

    Hell would freeze over before I trusted a government run by Corbyn with my cash.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    The denials are getting louder. It can only mean one thing.
    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1045020311207510016

    I do not understand your comment
    William is convinced that more denials mean a #peoplesbetrayal / #peoplesvote is more likely....

    I can’t wait for us to leave - the explanation of how this will hasten our joining the Euro will be unspoofable.
    We've already had that - if we leave it means disaster, which therefore means a hasty rejoining surge and thus Euro membership. Staying in on the same terms might not mean that.

    To join thriving Eurozone economies like Greece with 20% unemployment, Spain with 16% unemployment and Italy with 10% unemployment you mean?


    It's not my theory
    Not reality either, rejoining the EU means losing the rebate, not joining the Eurozone
    While it is not my theory and I would hope we would not find ourselves in such a pass, if we did leave and then tried to rejoin I would absolutely support joining the eurozone. If we're out then in again, it should be all the way in.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.

    It's an interesting point in terms of financial planning, though. The way I look at it is that a Corbyn/McDonnell government would undoubtedly be confiscatory, but also be fairly short-lived. Therefore for planning purposes, one needs to think about the ranking of targets they would go for, in the hope of escaping the worst effects before reality catches up and they are booted out. I don't think existing pension assets would be early targets, although pension allowances for everyone other than public-sector workers (already treated disproportionately favourably compared with most of the rest of us) certainly would*.

    If I were a hard-left Chancellor wanting to raid assets, I'd go for ISAs before pensions. But before that, income tax, inheritance tax, Corporation tax, and property taxes.

    * For that matter, Spreadsheet Phil might get there first. As always, if you're a higher-rate taxpayer planning a pension contribution, best get it in before the budget, 29th October this year. Nothing to lose if you can do it!
    Good points.

    I’m still nowhere near convinced that McMao will ever get anywhere near the treasury. But if things change, I’m going to think long and hard about my financial affairs. I don’t have any assets other than the company I founded and control entirely.
  • Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....
    I'd nationalise pension schemes....they only seem to be an effective means to make rich people richer as far as I can see...

    we save approx 6k a month now we are both back in the UK and working...I'd rather pay my fair share of tax rather than find some way of avoiding it. People with money hate paying taxes....
    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Or, more to the point, NHS and teachers' very generous pension schemes?
    Not as generous as they used to be. Back last millennium you could retire once you hit fifty...
    True, but still extremely generous compared with everyone else, especially at the top end. The biggest money-purchase pot you can accumulate before punitive taxation kicks in is £1.03m, which sounds a lot but only buys you something like a £31K index-linked pension. Because the tax rules for final-salary schemes are based on a 20-times multiplier, someone highly paid in a final-salary scheme can accumulate entitlement to a £50K index-linked pension before hitting the tax charge. It's a massive advantage for highly-paid public sector employees.
  • tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Jesus H Christ...Hazard is off the radar good..

    That goal was pure magic
    He is superb....you have Pogba, we have deBruyne, Liverpool have Salah, Barcelona Messi.Madrid Modric...but Hazard is the best of the lot.....

    Who is Pogba - Pogba and Mourinho need to go, tomorrow would be just fine
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    TM met Trump tonight and they have announced a trade deal is on the agenda.

    Interesting another report, and I cannot recall whether it was the Guardian or Sky, states that individual EU nation states are so concerned of a no deal impact that they intend doing bi lateral deals with the UK over the heads of the commission

    Reality hits politics


    What a load of kerfuffle you Tories have landed us in...begging bowls to Trump, scrapping around for little bits of leftovers from Europe....

    Wouldn't life had just been so much easier if we had been left Cammo, Osbo and Cleggy at the helm, and none off this Brexit bobbins? I'd take it
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....

    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.
    Why would McDonnell want to do that if there's no confiscatory effect?
    Well, here are two possibilities...

    1. Gives him a source of investment to direct.
    2. Stops companies pissing about with their employee's pension savings (and - sometimes - directors pissing off, having spent their employee's pension savings).

    Look, I can see why you, Mortimer, glw and others might hate this. But expropriation is the wrong word to describe it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    welshowl said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    tyson said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How does renationalization work then?

    What happens to the share holders of British Gas for example if Jezza decides to take it back into public control?

    They lose all their money.

    And Labour's supporters go wild with enthusiasm until they realise the owners in question were their pension funds.
    I expect a Corbyn government would nationalise pension funds too. This has been done in both Poland and Hungary already and could prove a very nice earner.
    Good grief. Really? That sounds like an absolute recipe for long term economic disaster....

    I suspect you are conflating two things

    There’s an argument on restricting or eliminating incentives to save for the wealthy (although others argue saving is intrinsically a good thing)

    But are you suggesting expropriation of assets people have saved in the past? And why should that include only pension funds and not, for example, portfolios of buy to let properties?
    Expropriation is surely the wrong word to describe nationalisation of pension funds.

    An indivudual's pension pot would not be lost to them, simply managed by (and potentially for the benefit of) the state.

    Now, I appreciate that there will be genuine concerns about future performance (although privately run pension schemes have often performed very poorly tbf) but that's not the same as expropriation.
    Expropriation might be slightly too generous.

    It would be theft.
    How so?!
    Because pensions belong to the individual. If the state ‘takes them over’, then they are stealing.
    You do post some rubbish sometimes. If you have £100k pension pot in XYZ plc pension scheme and that scheme were to be nationalised, you still have £100k in your pension pot the next day. The only difference is that it's become more secure since it it backed by the state not subject to the continued viability of XYZ plc.
    Having McDonnell look after my pension savings would be like McDonalds looking after the well being of my cow.

    Hell would freeze over before I trusted a government run by Corbyn with my cash.
    Haha - if the electorate voted them in you'll have no choice. It's called Democracy!
This discussion has been closed.