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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The biggest US midterms battle: Beto O’Rourke’s Texas effort t

SystemSystem Posts: 12,173
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The biggest US midterms battle: Beto O’Rourke’s Texas effort to unseat Ted Cruz

Of all the elections that are taking place across the US in November the one that’s attracting the most attention is the effort by Beto O’Rourke to take the Texas Senate seat held by Ted Cruz. Overnight there was the first TC debate as featured in the video clip above.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 28,412
    edited September 2018
    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058
  • 2nd like...Cruz?
  • Mike you really should have used eek's video in the header or edit it in if you can. It's truly remarkable and I've never seen anything like that in my life as an attack ad.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited September 2018

    2nd like...Cruz?

    Lying Ted just isn't very likeable so its more than just about party The Republican incumbent is consistently nearly 20 points ahead of the Democrat in the Texas Governor's race.

    https://realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/governor/tx/texas_governor_abbott_vs_valdez-6435.html

    Saying that the most recent poll this week has Cruz up by 9.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/senate/tx/texas_senate_cruz_vs_orourke-6310.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    What is it about Cruz's face, voice and manner that are so immediately unlikable (except when he was calling Trump a liar that one time)? Obviously plenty do like him as he convinced enough people to make him a candidate in the first place, but still.
  • Hope Cruz goes on to lose.

    FPT: thanks to Mr. Glenn for the stat on the Leave/Remain polling just after the referendum was called, which had 51% Leave and 49% Remain. Astonishingly little movement from there to the final result.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Hope Cruz goes on to lose.

    FPT: thanks to Mr. Glenn for the stat on the Leave/Remain polling just after the referendum was called, which had 51% Leave and 49% Remain. Astonishingly little movement from there to the final result.

    It’s almost as if the allegations of xenophobia, project doom, overspending, buses and the end of civilisation as we know it made no difference at all, isn’t it?
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    kle4 said:

    What is it about Cruz's face, voice and manner that are so immediately unlikable (except when he was calling Trump a liar that one time)?

    Indeed. Basically the definition of a punchable face.

    Not so sure that tweet will lose him votes though. This is Texas, after all.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Lying Ted. Pocahontas. Trump has some political skills, no doubt about it.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    DavidL said:

    Hope Cruz goes on to lose.

    FPT: thanks to Mr. Glenn for the stat on the Leave/Remain polling just after the referendum was called, which had 51% Leave and 49% Remain. Astonishingly little movement from there to the final result.

    It’s almost as if the allegations of xenophobia, project doom, overspending, buses and the end of civilisation as we know it made no difference at all, isn’t it?
    A number of people have made nice, right-thinking #FBPE friends on Twitter, so it's not been entirely time wasted. Plus, people have shared their insights about how Brexit is like a divorce or leaving a club and so forth. Internet profundity at its finest.
  • Ted Cruz looks like a candidate who is under unfamiliar pressure. He may well not know how to fight in such circumstances. I’d rather be laying him than backing him for that reason.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Ted Cruz looks like a candidate who is under unfamiliar pressure. He may well not know how to fight in such circumstances. I’d rather be laying him than backing him for that reason.

    He holds up the Bible, then he lies
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Ted Cruz looks like a candidate who is under unfamiliar pressure. He may well not know how to fight in such circumstances. I’d rather be laying him than backing him for that reason.

    He holds up the Bible, then he lies
  • Pulpstar said:

    Ted Cruz looks like a candidate who is under unfamiliar pressure. He may well not know how to fight in such circumstances. I’d rather be laying him than backing him for that reason.

    He holds up the Bible, then he lies
    Trump was a brilliant campaigner.
  • There has been a lot of talk about Texas for a few weeks. It looks too close for comfort for Cruz BUT the elephant in the room is that only one poll I'm aware of - an IPSOS earlier this month - has shown him behind. The "Cruz to looz" analyses raise some fair arguments but tend to skate over that rather crucial fact.

    With a polarised electorate (so a lot of people on both sides who just aren't in play) and a history of Texas being the dog that doesn't ultimately bark for the Democrats, I'm not particularly tempted to lay the GOP on this race.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/

    Indeed and don't forget Trump still won Texas 52% to 43% for Hillary in 2016 despite nationally losing the popular vote 46% to 48% for Hillary.

    Texas is still far more Republican than the US average and its Governor, both its Senators and a majority of its House and State Legislature are also from the GOP
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Horrible stuff, but Labour are likely to be back in power from 2018 sooner than they were after 1985 all the same.
  • HYUFD said:
    Appropriate venue: a football club on the verge of bankruptcy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/

    Indeed and don't forget Trump still won Texas 52% to 43% for Hillary in 2016 despite nationally losing the popular vote 46% to 48% for Hillary.

    Texas is still far more Republican than the US average and its Governor, both its Senators and a majority of its House and State Legislature are also from the GOP
    All that being said, Ted Cruz's favourable numbers, even with Republicans, are pretty awful.
  • rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/

    Indeed and don't forget Trump still won Texas 52% to 43% for Hillary in 2016 despite nationally losing the popular vote 46% to 48% for Hillary.

    Texas is still far more Republican than the US average and its Governor, both its Senators and a majority of its House and State Legislature are also from the GOP
    All that being said, Ted Cruz's favourable numbers, even with Republicans, are pretty awful.
    Safe to say even if he does get re-elected he is never going to be President.

    O'Rourke is more likely to be President than Cruz from here.
  • HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
  • HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
    I think there's plenty of white Texans who don't want unarmed black men to be shot.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2018
    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/

    Indeed and don't forget Trump still won Texas 52% to 43% for Hillary in 2016 despite nationally losing the popular vote 46% to 48% for Hillary.

    Texas is still far more Republican than the US average and its Governor, both its Senators and a majority of its House and State Legislature are also from the GOP
    All that being said, Ted Cruz's favourable numbers, even with Republicans, are pretty awful.
    It will be closer than it usually is but provide Cruz can get enough Republican voters out he will win
  • About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
    I think there's plenty of white Texans who don't want unarmed black men to be shot.
    Some maybe but plenty of others want a tough approach to crime, the white vote in Texas, certainly outside of a few liberal areas like Austin, is overwhelmingly Republican
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018

    HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
    ConHome represents a broad enough cross section of members to be representative and it matches the national polling too where a Canada style FTA proposal is far more popular than Chequers.

    As the EU has now comprehensively rejected Chequers it can be given the last rites soon enough, Barnier has at least said he is open to a Canada style arrangement, though a transition period and the NI backstop has to be resolved first before moving onto Canada style FTA negotiations
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/

    Indeed and don't forget Trump still won Texas 52% to 43% for Hillary in 2016 despite nationally losing the popular vote 46% to 48% for Hillary.

    Texas is still far more Republican than the US average and its Governor, both its Senators and a majority of its House and State Legislature are also from the GOP
    All that being said, Ted Cruz's favourable numbers, even with Republicans, are pretty awful.
    It will be closer than it usually is but provide Cruz can get enough Republican voters out he will win
    GOSH!

    What a revelation!

    You mean if Cruz gets more people to vote for him than O’Rourke he... wins?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Whose continent? You have got to be kidding. We are the ones trying to bully the EU, and it isn't working. It was our choice to leave, it was our decision to hand in the a50 letter, they told us the 2 options that were available at that time, we were the ones who sat on our hands for 2 years while the EU waited to find out what we wanted to do, then when TMay went with her version of what she wanted, was reminded of the 2 options available to her and us, and her option was not acceptable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.
    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
    I think there's plenty of white Texans who don't want unarmed black men to be shot.
    Some maybe but plenty of others want a tough approach to crime, the white vote in Texas, certainly outside of a few liberal areas like Austin, is overwhelmingly Republican
    Can someone not want to be tough on crime and also be against unarmed black men (or any race or sex) being shot?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It of withw noting that the Democrats lost s Texas House seat to the Republicans this week, which suggests not all is well in the Texas Democratic party.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2018/09/18/republican-pete-flores-track-upset-race-democratic-friendly-uresti-sea/

    Indeed and don't forget Trump still won Texas 52% to 43% for Hillary in 2016 despite nationally losing the popular vote 46% to 48% for Hillary.

    Texas is still far more Republican than the US average and its Governor, both its Senators and a majority of its House and State Legislature are also from the GOP
    All that being said, Ted Cruz's favourable numbers, even with Republicans, are pretty awful.
    It will be closer than it usually is but provide Cruz can get enough Republican voters out he will win
    GOSH!

    What a revelation!

    You mean if Cruz gets more people to vote for him than O’Rourke he... wins?
    Well be sarcastic if you wish but if O'Rourke is going to win he is not only going to need big Democrat, African American and Hispanic turnout but also to get a significant number of white Republicans to vote for him too
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited September 2018
    OchEye said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Whose continent? You have got to be kidding. We are the ones trying to bully the EU, and it isn't working. It was our choice to leave, it was our decision to hand in the a50 letter, they told us the 2 options that were available at that time, we were the ones who sat on our hands for 2 years while the EU waited to find out what we wanted to do, then when TMay went with her version of what she wanted, was reminded of the 2 options available to her and us, and her option was not acceptable.
    Asking for things is bullying now? Remarkable.

    I don't think the EU is bullying in remaining inflexible, however unreasonable I might think that inflexibility is, but I don't particularly see how a silly accusation of bullying is countered by an equally ridiculous accusation in the opposite direction.
  • Mr. Glenn, the Glorious Revolution saw a leader who didn't represent what the majority wanted, being Catholic, replaced.

    It wasn't imposed on the people, but accepted and endorsed by them, as per the 'invasions' of the future Henry IV and Roger Mortimer in the 14th century.
  • kle4 said:

    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.

    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    It amounts to the same thing. As long as the EU's attitude remains "démerdez vous!" the Brexiteers will get crushed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    kle4 said:

    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.

    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    It amounts to the same thing. .
    No it doesn't, since you were saying there are allies, ie people helping, while others of the same pro-EU view have expressed quite the opposite idea in terms of there being any care. That's a fundamental difference of opinion and what strategies are available as a result. Without allies hard Brexiters might be crushed but not brexit as a whole for example.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
    ConHome represents a broad enough cross section of members to be representative and it matches the national polling too where a Canada style FTA proposal is far more popular than Chequers.

    As the EU has now comprehensively rejected Chequers it can be given the last rites soon enough, Barnier has at least said he is open to a Canada style arrangement, though a transition period and the NI backstop has to be resolved first before moving onto Canada style FTA negotiations
    Canada for the U.K. ( not just GB ) would be great.

    Now if we can get on to that ground, the gas will well get turned up under the smug duo of Coveney and Varadkar. Because they would be the sole impediment to an agreement between 500m people.

    Of course it means the EU actually realising that it doesn’t mention anywhere in the EU treaties about leaving part of your country at the door as you leave a “voluntary “ club.
  • Mr. Simon, because red rosettes are so lovely. The Party must be obeyed. Big Jeremy is watching.

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    kle4 said:

    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.

    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    It amounts to the same thing. As long as the EU's attitude remains "démerdez vous!" the Brexiteers will get crushed.
    God you hate Britain don’t you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Of course the leadership was happy with the message. As for how others can tolerate it, the same way they have to date - either they won't actually get mad about it even if they pretend to be mad about it for factional reasons, or they will prioritise fighting the Tories over hypothetical future Labour gov actions they would disagree with.

    I cannot wait for after Brexit to not see large numbers of defections, since after Brexit was trailed in silly season as the moment a significant number would finally do so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    kle4 said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.
    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
    I think there's plenty of white Texans who don't want unarmed black men to be shot.
    Some maybe but plenty of others want a tough approach to crime, the white vote in Texas, certainly outside of a few liberal areas like Austin, is overwhelmingly Republican
    Can someone not want to be tough on crime and also be against unarmed black men (or any race or sex) being shot?
    You obviously have not been to rural Texas!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
    ConHome represents a broad enough cross section of members to be representative and it matches the national polling too where a Canada style FTA proposal is far more popular than Chequers.

    As the EU has now comprehensively rejected Chequers it can be given the last rites soon enough, Barnier has at least said he is open to a Canada style arrangement, though a transition period and the NI backstop has to be resolved first before moving onto Canada style FTA negotiations
    Canada for the U.K. ( not just GB ) would be great.

    Now if we can get on to that ground, the gas will well get turned up under the smug duo of Coveney and Varadkar. Because they would be the sole impediment to an agreement between 500m people.

    Of course it means the EU actually realising that it doesn’t mention anywhere in the EU treaties about leaving part of your country at the door as you leave a “voluntary “ club.
    It would be the ideal but Chequers has to be dumped first
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.

    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    It amounts to the same thing. .
    No it doesn't, since you were saying there are allies, ie people helping, while others of the same pro-EU view have expressed quite the opposite idea in terms of there being any care. That's a fundamental difference of opinion and what strategies are available as a result. Without allies hard Brexiters might be crushed but not brexit as a whole for example.
    Being rigid when it comes to negotiations is a huge help. It's the only thing that can expose the delusions at the heart of the Leave case. The Brexiteers can bully their UK opponents into submission but they can't bully other countries with their own interests to think about.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.
    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
    I think there's plenty of white Texans who don't want unarmed black men to be shot.
    Some maybe but plenty of others want a tough approach to crime, the white vote in Texas, certainly outside of a few liberal areas like Austin, is overwhelmingly Republican
    Can someone not want to be tough on crime and also be against unarmed black men (or any race or sex) being shot?
    You obviously have not been to rural Texas!
    I didn't suggest masses of them would turn on the issue. But as you have poitned out if his opponent gets really good turnout and support from other groups, he needs a certain number of white previously republicans - and I was merely speculating that there could be some (though I doubt enough) who are both tough on crime and don't think what O'Rourke said was not being tough on crime.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    That sounds brilliant, until you try to state in literal terms what the thing which has happened in history and is now going to happen again, actually is. Any ideas?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The country is split, and half of us have allies on the continent. If the historical precedent is the Glorious Revolution, it doesn't look good for Brexiteers.

    Pro EUers first need to agree on whether they have allies on the continent in seeking to remain or, as others suggest, that the EU no longer cares what happens to us in any way.
    It amounts to the same thing. .
    No it doesn't, since you were saying there are allies, ie people helping, while others of the same pro-EU view have expressed quite the opposite idea in terms of there being any care. That's a fundamental difference of opinion and what strategies are available as a result. Without allies hard Brexiters might be crushed but not brexit as a whole for example.
    Being rigid when it comes to negotiations is a huge help. It's the only thing that can expose the delusions at the heart of the Leave case. The Brexiteers can bully their UK opponents into submission but they can't bully other countries with their own interests to think about.
    I wasn't making a comment about rigidity of negotiations. I was making a point that you want us to remain after all, and allies on the continent help with that, while others who were remainers (and might indeed still want to remain) don't think there are allies on the continent if they believe as stated that the EU no longer cares what happens to us or what we do.

    So it wasn't an issue of us 'bullying' others to get a deal we want out of this, it was an issue that hard or no deal Brexit is much more likely for continuity remainers if the EU doesn't want to assist. So the presence of continental allies, or not, is actually important despite your attempt to shift the goalposts.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    HYUFD said:

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
    ConHome represents a broad enough cross section of members to be representative and it matches the national polling too where a Canada style FTA proposal is far more popular than Chequers.

    As the EU has now comprehensively rejected Chequers it can be given the last rites soon enough, Barnier has at least said he is open to a Canada style arrangement, though a transition period and the NI backstop has to be resolved first before moving onto Canada style FTA negotiations
    Canada for the U.K. ( not just GB ) would be great.

    Now if we can get on to that ground, the gas will well get turned up under the smug duo of Coveney and Varadkar. Because they would be the sole impediment to an agreement between 500m people.

    Of course it means the EU actually realising that it doesn’t mention anywhere in the EU treaties about leaving part of your country at the door as you leave a “voluntary “ club.
    It would be the ideal but Chequers has to be dumped first
    I imagine it’s a small step from where we are.
  • welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
    ConHome represents a broad enough cross section of members to be representative and it matches the national polling too where a Canada style FTA proposal is far more popular than Chequers.

    As the EU has now comprehensively rejected Chequers it can be given the last rites soon enough, Barnier has at least said he is open to a Canada style arrangement, though a transition period and the NI backstop has to be resolved first before moving onto Canada style FTA negotiations
    Canada for the U.K. ( not just GB ) would be great.

    Now if we can get on to that ground, the gas will well get turned up under the smug duo of Coveney and Varadkar. Because they would be the sole impediment to an agreement between 500m people.

    Of course it means the EU actually realising that it doesn’t mention anywhere in the EU treaties about leaving part of your country at the door as you leave a “voluntary “ club.
    It would be the ideal but Chequers has to be dumped first
    I imagine it’s a small step from where we are.
    I suspect TM will steer that way
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Whose continent? You have got to be kidding. We are the ones trying to bully the EU, and it isn't working. It was our choice to leave, it was our decision to hand in the a50 letter, they told us the 2 options that were available at that time, we were the ones who sat on our hands for 2 years while the EU waited to find out what we wanted to do, then when TMay went with her version of what she wanted, was reminded of the 2 options available to her and us, and her option was not acceptable.
    Asking for things is bullying now? Remarkable.

    I don't think the EU is bullying in remaining inflexible, however unreasonable I might think that inflexibility is, but I don't particularly see how a silly accusation of bullying is countered by an equally ridiculous accusation in the opposite direction.
    So, it is now "our" continent! Don't you think 500 million in 27 other countries might disagree?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Well piss off then. Nobody wants us!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    New ConservativeHome poll has just 7% of Tory members saying May should stick with Chequers.

    Switching to a Canada+ solution is by far the most popular option with 42% support, ending the negotiations with the EU altogether and preparing for No Deal gets 36% support, 9% want to join the EEA/EFTA either permanently or temporarily, 7% want to stick with Chequers and 4% want her to postpone Article 50 and Brexit.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/09/our-special-survey-only-one-in-ten-party-members-says-that-may-should-stick-with-chequers.html

    Word of caution - conhome is the right wing of the party and I doubt few members know the difference between the various propositions including Chequers
    ConHome represents a broad enough cross section of members to be representative and it matches the national polling too where a Canada style FTA proposal is far more popular than Chequers.

    As the EU has now comprehensively rejected Chequers it can be given the last rites soon enough, Barnier has at least said he is open to a Canada style arrangement, though a transition period and the NI backstop has to be resolved first before moving onto Canada style FTA negotiations
    Canada for the U.K. ( not just GB ) would be great.

    Now if we can get on to that ground, the gas will well get turned up under the smug duo of Coveney and Varadkar. Because they would be the sole impediment to an agreement between 500m people.

    Of course it means the EU actually realising that it doesn’t mention anywhere in the EU treaties about leaving part of your country at the door as you leave a “voluntary “ club.
    It would be the ideal but Chequers has to be dumped first
    I imagine it’s a small step from where we are.
    I suspect TM will steer that way
    Quite, set sail to there and then it’s the 26 really considering if they want no deal over infrastructure on a border miles out in the Atlantic on the edge of the European world that’s not going to be built either way round.

    At that point it all becomes Varadkar’s problem.
  • Moving the conversation onto Canada or Norway has the considerable merit of dumping both No Deal and Remain into the bin.

    As others have already implied, why on earth would the EU want us at the federalist table? We are so obviously disinterested in the notion that we would be an obstacle they could do without.

    I really cannot think the EU would want us back. Can you imagine a majority Boris led government at EU council meetings. It would be the enemy within and a very recentful enemy causing chaos
  • HYUFD said:
    What has 100 legs and no teeth?

    The front row of a Leave Means Leave rally.
  • I was wondering who'd be the first to start mincing around in his Sir Francis Drake doublet and hose. No surprise that it's DD.
  • HYUFD said:
    What has 100 legs and no teeth?

    The front row of a Leave Means Leave rally.
    That's a bit cruel Alastair but I have no sympathy for anything to do with Farage
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Whose continent? You have got to be kidding. We are the ones trying to bully the EU, and it isn't working. It was our choice to leave, it was our decision to hand in the a50 letter, they told us the 2 options that were available at that time, we were the ones who sat on our hands for 2 years while the EU waited to find out what we wanted to do, then when TMay went with her version of what she wanted, was reminded of the 2 options available to her and us, and her option was not acceptable.
    Asking for things is bullying now? Remarkable.

    I don't think the EU is bullying in remaining inflexible, however unreasonable I might think that inflexibility is, but I don't particularly see how a silly accusation of bullying is countered by an equally ridiculous accusation in the opposite direction.
    So, it is now "our" continent! Don't you think 500 million in 27 other countries might disagree?
    They also probably think it’s ”our” continent.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Whose continent? You have got to be kidding. We are the ones trying to bully the EU, and it isn't working. It was our choice to leave, it was our decision to hand in the a50 letter, they told us the 2 options that were available at that time, we were the ones who sat on our hands for 2 years while the EU waited to find out what we wanted to do, then when TMay went with her version of what she wanted, was reminded of the 2 options available to her and us, and her option was not acceptable.
    Asking for things is bullying now? Remarkable.

    I don't think the EU is bullying in remaining inflexible, however unreasonable I might think that inflexibility is, but I don't particularly see how a silly accusation of bullying is countered by an equally ridiculous accusation in the opposite direction.
    So, it is now "our" continent! Don't you think 500 million in 27 other countries might disagree?
    Perhaps you could dial down the splenetic pro-EU frothing and actually read what was written. Europe is our continent in the sense that it is the continent of which we are a geographical part.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    That sounds brilliant, until you try to state in literal terms what the thing which has happened in history and is now going to happen again, actually is. Any ideas?
    Conflict and assuming they are more powerful than us and therefore we will 'stir into the abyss' and surrender in our 'darkest hour' (as the Guardian quoted an EU official saying recently).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2018
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    Whose continent? You have got to be kidding. We are the ones trying to bully the EU, and it isn't working. It was our choice to leave, it was our decision to hand in the a50 letter, they told us the 2 options that were available at that time, we were the ones who sat on our hands for 2 years while the EU waited to find out what we wanted to do, then when TMay went with her version of what she wanted, was reminded of the 2 options available to her and us, and her option was not acceptable.
    Asking for things is bullying now? Remarkable.

    I don't think the EU is bullying in remaining inflexible, however unreasonable I might think that inflexibility is, but I don't particularly see how a silly accusation of bullying is countered by an equally ridiculous accusation in the opposite direction.
    So, it is now "our" continent! Don't you think 500 million in 27 other countries might disagree?
    No. Its their continent too. I think you need to learn how to speak English properly as it is absolutely our continent but its not ours alone and I never wrote that.

    EDIT: Indeed the fact the words "our continent" were preceded by the words "the rest of" to form the phrase "the rest of our continent" clearly means that we are not the only ones on this continent. The other 500 million in 27 other countries* would be the rest to whom I referred.

    * Actually its more than that. The EU aren't the only ones on our continent.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Some, er!, speakers at conference can get a little carried away with their own rhetoric. It's actually a reasonable idea and keeps speeches and arguments to a reasonable length, and also to stop non relevant speeches wasting time, thus allowing everyone to be able to speak for and against motions. Unlike the Tory Conference which is so micro managed to the lowest level, and arguments against the leaderene are not allowed (except in side (non promoted and poorly attended) meetings)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Amazing, the GOPs spokesman for the Senate judiciary Comittee has been fired because it turns out he not only lied on his resume at a previous job but there was a sexual harassment comaint against him too.

    This confirmation process is going great.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    As I commented on the last thread (and now this is on topic) , if you think this is an attack on your opponent you really are in desperate straits..

    https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1043278255740973058

    O'Rourke's comments will go down well with African American and Hispanic Texans, rather less well with white Texans. It is a question of whether O'Rourke can get enough turnout effort from the former to counter Cruz's turnout from the latter
    I think there's plenty of white Texans who don't want unarmed black men to be shot.
    Some maybe but plenty of others want a tough approach to crime, the white vote in Texas, certainly outside of a few liberal areas like Austin, is overwhelmingly Republican
    A tough approach to crime absolutely.

    Except that O'Rourke refered to the shooting of an unarmed black man who was in his own home . . . that is not a crime! It is not actually a crime to be 'at home while black'.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/07/dallas-police-officer-shoots-neighbor-wrong-apartment
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    That sounds brilliant, until you try to state in literal terms what the thing which has happened in history and is now going to happen again, actually is. Any ideas?
    Conflict and assuming they are more powerful than us and therefore we will 'stir into the abyss' and surrender in our 'darkest hour' (as the Guardian quoted an EU official saying recently).
    I think we disagree on the meaning of "literal."
  • HYUFD said:
    What has 100 legs and no teeth?

    The front row of a Leave Means Leave rally.
    I first heard that joke applied (except with two teeth) to a Sidney Devine crowd. Since he's still wowing his loyal following I daresay they're now entirely toothless, and possibly down to an odd number of legs.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://order-order.com/2018/09/22/301897/

    Watch it to the end to fully understand why this is such a brutal attack ad
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Paul Gosar, R. Arizona Congress man has an attack ad launched against him, by 6 of his siblings, things are getting interesting:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45611403
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Because they are spineless ?

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    I really cannot think the EU would want us back. Can you imagine a majority Boris led government at EU council meetings. It would be the enemy within and a very recentful enemy causing chaos

    The difference now is one of the main British political parties fully supports no longer being in the European Union. The last time that was the case was in 1983 when Labour advocated withdrawal from what was then the EEC and a very different organisation.

    Across the rest of the EU, while there are individual parties who are highly sceptical and especially about further integration, I can't think of a single main party which is in a position of power and which is opposed to that country's continued membership of the EU.

    One of two possible scenarios then - first and less likely, a major political re-alignment in the UK and second, given both the Conservative and Labour parties have done on respective journeys over the past 30 years with regard to Europe, it's a reasonable question to ask where they might be in 30 years time.

    The EU will need a guarantee, however, that as with football clubs oscillating between the Premier League and the Championship, we won't be in and out of the EU with every election- in other words, a renewed cross-party concensus in favour of the European Union will need to re-emerge.

    I don't think that wholly implausible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2018
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    That sounds brilliant, until you try to state in literal terms what the thing which has happened in history and is now going to happen again, actually is. Any ideas?
    Conflict and assuming they are more powerful than us and therefore we will 'stir into the abyss' and surrender in our 'darkest hour' (as the Guardian quoted an EU official saying recently).
    I think we disagree on the meaning of "literal."
    I think we might. That is literally what is happening at the moment (was quoted in The Guardian) and it has literally happened before. No exaggeration.

    If you wanted to be more specific that isn't what the word literal means.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited September 2018
    stodge said:


    I really cannot think the EU would want us back. Can you imagine a majority Boris led government at EU council meetings. It would be the enemy within and a very recentful enemy causing chaos

    The difference now is one of the main British political parties fully supports no longer being in the European Union. The last time that was the case was in 1983 when Labour advocated withdrawal from what was then the EEC and a very different organisation.

    Across the rest of the EU, while there are individual parties who are highly sceptical and especially about further integration, I can't think of a single main party which is in a position of power and which is opposed to that country's continued membership of the EU.

    One of two possible scenarios then - first and less likely, a major political re-alignment in the UK and second, given both the Conservative and Labour parties have done on respective journeys over the past 30 years with regard to Europe, it's a reasonable question to ask where they might be in 30 years time.

    The EU will need a guarantee, however, that as with football clubs oscillating between the Premier League and the Championship, we won't be in and out of the EU with every election- in other words, a renewed cross-party concensus in favour of the European Union will need to re-emerge.

    I don't think that wholly implausible.
    I do not see that happening in the foreseable future let alone in 30 years time

    We need to leave the EU either under Chequers or +++ or Canada +++ to experience the economic realities, possible good but equally not, before a consensus to re join becomes a political possibility.

    Unless we leave it will be a constant division across the nation. We just have to get on with it
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:
    What has 100 legs and no teeth?

    The front row of a Leave Means Leave rally.
    Jesus. That might be good if it was somehow even a tiny tiny TINY bit funny. But it’s not.
    You should do one about red gammony faces next. They’re ALWAYS hilarious.

    Doesn’t look overtly different to a momentum rally....
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2018/09/22/301897/

    Watch it to the end to fully understand why this is such a brutal attack ad


    Devastating...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2018
    notme said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:
    What has 100 legs and no teeth?

    The front row of a Leave Means Leave rally.
    Jesus. That might be good if it was somehow even a tiny tiny TINY bit funny. But it’s not.
    You should do one about red gammony faces next. They’re ALWAYS hilarious.

    Doesn’t look overtly different to a momentum rally....
    It's the same twunts refighting the same battles from the 1970's

    Now they are just 70.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    The lesson being that when we leave Europe, after much expense and blood, we will return a few years later?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    David Davis, who resigned from the government over Chequers because he thought it was nonsense, declares war on Europe because some leaders said Chequers was nonsense.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Foxy said:

    About time someone said it, right!?

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This is not a nation that will be bullied by the rest of our continent.
    The lesson being that when we leave Europe, after much expense and blood, we will return a few years later?
    You need to polish your crystal ball, it's a bit cloudy.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910

    I do not see that happening in the foreseable future let alone in 30 years time

    We need to leave the EU either under Chequers or +++ or Canada +++ to experience the economic realities, possible good but equally not, before a consensus to re join becomes a political possibility.

    Unless we leave it will be a constant division across the nation. We just have to get on with it

    I'm emphatically NOT suggesting we shouldn't leave - I voted to LEAVE and leave we must under as reasonable a set of terms for all sides as possible.

    My point is the Conservatives were, not so long ago, the more pro-European of the two main parties - we joined under a Conservative PM, Thatcher actively campaigned to keep us in the EEC in 1975. Yes, you may well argue the EEC's metamorphosis into the EU changed things and led to changes in Conservative attitudes.

    The only constant is change - the direction of travel of the EU at this point may not engender a concensus toward re-joining but as any sensible politician should always say "never say never". The EU will evolve and change - it may become a European Federation or United States of Europe, it may become less integrationist as more sceptical Governments come into power and indeed reverse some of the integration (I think that unlikely but not inconceivable).

    We do not know what life outside the EU will be like - I'm pretty sure we won't be eating roots or living in mud huts five days after leaving the EU but over a 10-20 year period, it will become clear whether we made the right decision or not.

    IF we get it right, it will encourage divergent tensions within the EU - if we are wrong, our political concensus will quickly evolve. The Conservative Party which you support has rightly prided itself on being a pragmatic movement - IF it becomes incontrovertibly clear that leaving the EU was a mistake, there will be a change in policy.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    FF43 said:

    David Davis, who resigned from the government over Chequers because he thought it was nonsense, declares war on Europe because some leaders said Chequers was nonsense.
    The man who made no progress in 2 years of negotiation could now solve it in a few hours over a beer it seems.

    These are politicians that prefer mouthing off to handpicked audiences than actually getting their hands dirty and acheiving anything. Same old, same old.

    It rather reminds me of one of my surgical colleagues who was wont to end consultations this way: "Having reviewed all the results and examined you, I think the only way to cure this condition is a very complex and prolonged procedure, and I wish you well in finding a surgeon to do it..."
  • notme said:

    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2018/09/22/301897/

    Watch it to the end to fully understand why this is such a brutal attack ad


    Devastating...
    We don't know the family dynamic that is behind this. It might be political - but there is also bound to be a lot of very personal stuff affecting the family relationships.

    I find it inappropriate.
  • stodge said:

    I do not see that happening in the foreseable future let alone in 30 years time

    We need to leave the EU either under Chequers or +++ or Canada +++ to experience the economic realities, possible good but equally not, before a consensus to re join becomes a political possibility.

    Unless we leave it will be a constant division across the nation. We just have to get on with it

    I'm emphatically NOT suggesting we shouldn't leave - I voted to LEAVE and leave we must under as reasonable a set of terms for all sides as possible.

    My point is the Conservatives were, not so long ago, the more pro-European of the two main parties - we joined under a Conservative PM, Thatcher actively campaigned to keep us in the EEC in 1975. Yes, you may well argue the EEC's metamorphosis into the EU changed things and led to changes in Conservative attitudes.

    The only constant is change - the direction of travel of the EU at this point may not engender a concensus toward re-joining but as any sensible politician should always say "never say never". The EU will evolve and change - it may become a European Federation or United States of Europe, it may become less integrationist as more sceptical Governments come into power and indeed reverse some of the integration (I think that unlikely but not inconceivable).

    We do not know what life outside the EU will be like - I'm pretty sure we won't be eating roots or living in mud huts five days after leaving the EU but over a 10-20 year period, it will become clear whether we made the right decision or not.

    IF we get it right, it will encourage divergent tensions within the EU - if we are wrong, our political concensus will quickly evolve. The Conservative Party which you support has rightly prided itself on being a pragmatic movement - IF it becomes incontrovertibly clear that leaving the EU was a mistake, there will be a change in policy.

    I agree with that
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    stodge said:

    I do not see that happening in the foreseable future let alone in 30 years time

    We need to leave the EU either under Chequers or +++ or Canada +++ to experience the economic realities, possible good but equally not, before a consensus to re join becomes a political possibility.

    Unless we leave it will be a constant division across the nation. We just have to get on with it

    I'm emphatically NOT suggesting we shouldn't leave - I voted to LEAVE and leave we must under as reasonable a set of terms for all sides as possible.

    My point is the Conservatives were, not so long ago, the more pro-European of the two main parties - we joined under a Conservative PM, Thatcher actively campaigned to keep us in the EEC in 1975. Yes, you may well argue the EEC's metamorphosis into the EU changed things and led to changes in Conservative attitudes.

    The only constant is change - the direction of travel of the EU at this point may not engender a concensus toward re-joining but as any sensible politician should always say "never say never". The EU will evolve and change - it may become a European Federation or United States of Europe, it may become less integrationist as more sceptical Governments come into power and indeed reverse some of the integration (I think that unlikely but not inconceivable).

    We do not know what life outside the EU will be like - I'm pretty sure we won't be eating roots or living in mud huts five days after leaving the EU but over a 10-20 year period, it will become clear whether we made the right decision or not.

    IF we get it right, it will encourage divergent tensions within the EU - if we are wrong, our political concensus will quickly evolve. The Conservative Party which you support has rightly prided itself on being a pragmatic movement - IF it becomes incontrovertibly clear that leaving the EU was a mistake, there will be a change in policy.

    I think that it is likely that we could only re-enter the EU (post Brexit) via a bipartisan approach. Otherwise the EU would not accept the application. That would require either a change of position by the Conservative Party, or it ceasing to exist in its current form.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Comcast has apparently outbid Fox to buy Sky.

    Even though I bow to nobody in my loathing and contempt for Murdoch, I can't help but feel this is the greater of two evils.
  • Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    I do not see that happening in the foreseable future let alone in 30 years time

    We need to leave the EU either under Chequers or +++ or Canada +++ to experience the economic realities, possible good but equally not, before a consensus to re join becomes a political possibility.

    Unless we leave it will be a constant division across the nation. We just have to get on with it

    I'm emphatically NOT suggesting we shouldn't leave - I voted to LEAVE and leave we must under as reasonable a set of terms for all sides as possible.

    My point is the Conservatives were, not so long ago, the more pro-European of the two main parties - we joined under a Conservative PM, Thatcher actively campaigned to keep us in the EEC in 1975. Yes, you may well argue the EEC's metamorphosis into the EU changed things and led to changes in Conservative attitudes.

    The only constant is change - the direction of travel of the EU at this point may not engender a concensus toward re-joining but as any sensible politician should always say "never say never". The EU will evolve and change - it may become a European Federation or United States of Europe, it may become less integrationist as more sceptical Governments come into power and indeed reverse some of the integration (I think that unlikely but not inconceivable).

    We do not know what life outside the EU will be like - I'm pretty sure we won't be eating roots or living in mud huts five days after leaving the EU but over a 10-20 year period, it will become clear whether we made the right decision or not.

    IF we get it right, it will encourage divergent tensions within the EU - if we are wrong, our political concensus will quickly evolve. The Conservative Party which you support has rightly prided itself on being a pragmatic movement - IF it becomes incontrovertibly clear that leaving the EU was a mistake, there will be a change in policy.

    I think that it is likely that we could only re-enter the EU (post Brexit) via a bipartisan approach. Otherwise the EU would not accept the application. That would require either a change of position by the Conservative Party, or it ceasing to exist in its current form.
    Far more chance of that happening to labour, indeed once Corbyn has axed any chance of a second referendum it could be swift
  • ydoethur said:

    Comcast has apparently outbid Fox to buy Sky.

    Even though I bow to nobody in my loathing and contempt for Murdoch, I can't help but feel this is the greater of two evils.

    30 billion. Sky subs on way up
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183

    notme said:

    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2018/09/22/301897/

    Watch it to the end to fully understand why this is such a brutal attack ad


    Devastating...
    We don't know the family dynamic that is behind this. It might be political - but there is also bound to be a lot of very personal stuff affecting the family relationships.

    I find it inappropriate.
    why inappropriate?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Comcast has apparently outbid Fox to buy Sky.

    Even though I bow to nobody in my loathing and contempt for Murdoch, I can't help but feel this is the greater of two evils.

    30 billion. Sky subs on way up
    And if Comcast's US reputation is anything to go by, service, neutrality and quality out the window.

    On the other hand if Sky do go belly up, at least us plebs might get some live sport back on free to air, even if Premiership footballers go back to earning £5 million instead of £500 million.
  • FF43 said:

    David Davis, who resigned from the government over Chequers because he thought it was nonsense, declares war on Europe because some leaders said Chequers was nonsense.
    As Lillian Bayliss of the Old Vic once said to an aspiring star, 'Well my dear, you've had your chance and you muffed it."
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Comcast has apparently outbid Fox to buy Sky.

    Even though I bow to nobody in my loathing and contempt for Murdoch, I can't help but feel this is the greater of two evils.

    30 billion. Sky subs on way up
    And if Comcast's US reputation is anything to go by, service, neutrality and quality out the window.

    On the other hand if Sky do go belly up, at least us plebs might get some live sport back on free to air, even if Premiership footballers go back to earning £5 million instead of £500 million.
    And save a lot on monthly subs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    stodge said:

    I do not see that happening in the foreseable future let alone in 30 years time

    We need to leave the EU either under Chequers or +++ or Canada +++ to experience the economic realities, possible good but equally not, before a consensus to re join becomes a political possibility.

    Unless we leave it will be a constant division across the nation. We just have to get on with it

    I'm emphatically NOT suggesting we shouldn't leave - I voted to LEAVE and leave we must under as reasonable a set of terms for all sides as possible.

    My point is the Conservatives were, not so long ago, the more pro-European of the two main parties - we joined under a Conservative PM, Thatcher actively campaigned to keep us in the EEC in 1975. Yes, you may well argue the EEC's metamorphosis into the EU changed things and led to changes in Conservative attitudes.

    The only constant is change - the direction of travel of the EU at this point may not engender a concensus toward re-joining but as any sensible politician should always say "never say never". The EU will evolve and change - it may become a European Federation or United States of Europe, it may become less integrationist as more sceptical Governments come into power and indeed reverse some of the integration (I think that unlikely but not inconceivable).

    We do not know what life outside the EU will be like - I'm pretty sure we won't be eating roots or living in mud huts five days after leaving the EU but over a 10-20 year period, it will become clear whether we made the right decision or not.

    IF we get it right, it will encourage divergent tensions within the EU - if we are wrong, our political concensus will quickly evolve. The Conservative Party which you support has rightly prided itself on being a pragmatic movement - IF it becomes incontrovertibly clear that leaving the EU was a mistake, there will be a change in policy.

    If the EU develops an Associate Membership for non Eurozone nations it is possible even the Tories could eventually back returning to it.

    If not, the most we would likely return to is the Single Market and Customs Union
  • HYUFD said:

    If not, the most we would likely return to is the Single Market and Customs Union

    Chuka Chequers?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018

    HYUFD said:

    If not, the most we would likely return to is the Single Market and Customs Union

    Chuka Chequers?
    Quite possibly but I suspect we will try Canada first
  • Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2018/09/22/301897/

    Watch it to the end to fully understand why this is such a brutal attack ad

    I would love to see Rachel Johnson do one of those ads...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    SeanT said:

    notme said:

    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2018/09/22/301897/

    Watch it to the end to fully understand why this is such a brutal attack ad


    Devastating...
    We don't know the family dynamic that is behind this. It might be political - but there is also bound to be a lot of very personal stuff affecting the family relationships.

    I find it inappropriate.
    One of the brothers has spoken out as to why he hates his sibling, the candidate. Amongst his reasons is that candidate Gosar “attended a rally where he gave a speech for despicable hard right British thug Tommy Robinson”

    I’m not joking. Quite bizarre that British street politics have infected Arizona.

    I also wonder what the Gosar family would say if they were told WHY Robinson is so thuggish and angry: mainly because 1400 underage white girls in Rotherham (and tens of thousands across the UK) were subject to mass racist gang rape, and sexual trafficking, and sometimes even murder, by predatory gangs of mainly Pakistani males. And this went on for 30 years and was knowingly covered up by the authorities.

    I suspect that knowledge would short circuit their brains. How would you even process that revelation from the UK, as a bien pensant Arizonan? I suspect they’d refuse to believe it. Or just fall eerily quiet like some robot presented with a logical fallacy.
    Nothing excuses fascism. No cause justifies it, ever. None.
This discussion has been closed.