On topic, this is a very good article. I also think it highly unlikely there will be a split in either the Labour or Tory parties, not least because it takes a massive amount of courage to do so for any politician to leave a party that they may have been part of for much of their life. Politicians and their local activists have a love/hate but fundamentally symbiotic relationship that is very difficult to overturn. Aside from the fact that many an MP will know that they will lose their seat under FPTP if they defect, they also know that they will lose many people they regard as friends. I think we are doomed to a period of very right wing versus very left wing. Interesting times as they say
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
Agree everyone involved deserves justice - but I also worry about organisations 'investigating' complaints themselves before deciding to go to the Police (if at all) - see the Catholic Church.
Why did it take 8 months, to conclude the police should be involved? Surely that's a matter for the Police to decide?
Agree there - organisations should not be self-investigating criminal offences.
But ,y view of this is that abuse of process has now been thoroughly institutionalised in our legal system where allegations of sexual harrassment are concerned.
Up here - in Ashfield - local rumours from 10 years previously about the Lib Dem candidate miraculaously reemerged a few weeks before the 2015 Election. The majority in 2010 had been tiny, and it was a marginal.
I'm getting a '403 - Forbidden: Access is denied. You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied.' message
The IHRA definition clearly says "Criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." So what's the problem? Which Israel example is unreasonable in that context and why?
This gives example of criticism of Israel being shut down and other places were the definition has run into problems on the basis of the conflation of anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel.
I believe the original author has even stated concerns about it being used for that purpose.
Actually that gives details about one universities interpretation of a different (but similar) definition. That's not the same thing. The examples are here and they make it explicitly clear that criticism of Israel is permissible: https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
So which example do you have an issue with?
Do you have a problem with: "Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust"?
No it went further than that, it listed other places where there definition had run into trouble on the basis of conflating racism and criticism of Israel.
My issue would be that which conflates criticism of Israel with racism, in the same way I would have a problem if someone conflated criticism of N. Korea or Venezuela or one of many other countries.
There was an example of a Jewish Holocaust survivor who had to change the name of his talk and had it recorded on the basis of the rules. I assume the rules only affected him because he is a terrible anti-Semite rather than a strong critic of Israel....
On topic, this is a very good article. I also think it highly unlikely there will be a split in either the Labour or Tory parties, not least because it takes a massive amount of courage to do so for any politician to leave a party that they may have been part of for much of their life. Politicians and their local activists have a love/hate but fundamentally symbiotic relationship that is very difficult to overturn. Aside from the fact that many an MP will know that they will lose their seat under FPTP if they defect, they also know that they will lose many people they regard as friends. I think we are doomed to a period of very right wing versus very left wing. Interesting times as they say
There was a revealing but quite sad article in the Times (online) a few months ago. The writer said she despised what the Labour party was becoming but would never leave as all her friends were members and her social life revolved around going to various party meetings. To leave would be to give up the meaning for her existence.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
On topic, this is a very good article. I also think it highly unlikely there will be a split in either the Labour or Tory parties, not least because it takes a massive amount of courage to do so for any politician to leave a party that they may have been part of for much of their life. Politicians and their local activists have a love/hate but fundamentally symbiotic relationship that is very difficult to overturn. Aside from the fact that many an MP will know that they will lose their seat under FPTP if they defect, they also know that they will lose many people they regard as friends. I think we are doomed to a period of very right wing versus very left wing. Interesting times as they say
There was a revealing but quite sad article in the Times (online) a few months ago. The writer said she despised what the Labour party was becoming but would never leave as all her friends were members and her social life revolved around going to various party meetings. To leave would be to give up the meaning for her existence.
That’s the sort of thing you usually hear from Scientologists.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
We have actually arrived at the "some of my best friends are Jewish" moment.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
We have actually arrived at the "some of my best friends are Jewish" moment.
Its like the Jimmy Savile did a lot of work for charity.....
The IHRA definition clearly says "Criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." So what's the problem? Which Israel example is unreasonable in that context and why?
This gives example of criticism of Israel being shut down and other places were the definition has run into problems on the basis of the conflation of anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel.
I believe the original author has even stated concerns about it being used for that purpose.
Actually that gives details about one universities interpretation of a different (but similar) definition. That's not the same thing. The examples are here and they make it explicitly clear that criticism of Israel is permissible: https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
So which example do you have an issue with?
Do you have a problem with: "Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust"?
No it went further than that, it listed other places where there definition had run into trouble on the basis of conflating racism and criticism of Israel.
My issue would be that which conflates criticism of Israel with racism, in the same way I would have a problem if someone conflated criticism of N. Korea or Venezuela or one of many other countries.
There was an example of a Jewish Holocaust survivor who had to change the name of his talk and had it recorded on the basis of the rules. I assume the rules only affected him because he is a terrible anti-Semite rather than a strong critic of Israel....
That's just not true it doesn't conflate criticism of Israel as racism. It explicitly says criticism of Isrsel is not racism. It gives examples that should all be reasonable eg accusing Jews of supporting Israel over the own country as being racism. Which it is. The same as accusing all Catholics of allegiance to Rome over the own nation is.
There is no example at all which makes criticism of Israel racism.
It's perfectly possible to oppose the occupation of Palestine and be an anti-Semite. What would you do about such people?
Actually we adopted it, it is only examples related to Israel which we didn't, which is were the anti-Semitism anti Palestinian occupation part comes in. Happy to kick out anti-Semites, not happy to kick people out because they oppose the occupation of Palestine.
You'll be relieved to know (almost as relieved as I am) that I shall be nowhere near disciplinary or dispute panels, I value my sanity far too much.
No, Labour adopted it in part: and the parts you missed out are telling. It allows exactly the same confusion that you repeatedly fall into to occur. The examples were there for a reason.
I'm glad you won't be on any panel, as you're evidently unable to detect anti-Semitism when it is staring you in your face.
We adopted all of it but examples that related to Israel as criticism of a country is radically different from criticism of a group of people by their race or religion. The latter is racism, the former is not.
Similar to my reasons to be glad you are not in the Labour party then, someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia has no place in Labour.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
And?
A lot of what is thought about Labour in regards to Jewish people here is thought about the Conservatives and Muslims in other places. Some people think that the mayoral campaign, the referendum campaign and Boris' recent comments (which admittedly happened after the election) are part of some larger problem.
To clarify I don't actually think everyone who voted Conservative is an Islamophobe.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
We have actually arrived at the "some of my best friends are Jewish" moment.
Its like the Jimmy Savile did a lot of work for charity.....
While all this is going on and TM still has her faults I for one am pleased she is our Prime Minister and expect he to see out 2019 but at sometime she will stand down before the election, probably with a reasonable legacy. Much better I expect than most anyone could have predicted
She'll probably win Strictly as well.
Now I think that is pushing it a bit far but she certainly dances better than I can !!!!
You are too modest G, I bet you cut a dash on the dance floor.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
We have actually arrived at the "some of my best friends are Jewish" moment.
My post left open 2 possibilities, either Jossia's point was invalid because a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
Or it does invalidate it.
If it doesn't then Jossia's original point is meaningless.
If it does then Corbyn can't be racist.
I didn't claim either to be true but if you do want to jump on the Jossia's original point is meaningless train you could at least be a bit more polite about his point whilst doing so....
While all this is going on and TM still has her faults I for one am pleased she is our Prime Minister and expect he to see out 2019 but at sometime she will stand down before the election, probably with a reasonable legacy. Much better I expect than most anyone could have predicted
She'll probably win Strictly as well.
Now I think that is pushing it a bit far but she certainly dances better than I can !!!!
You are too modest G, I bet you cut a dash on the dance floor.
Ashfield was the biggest Tory % gain in any competitive English seat. What are your thoughts on potentially making Nottinghamshire unitary ?
I think that for Ashfield / Mansfield it would be something of a disaster. Here we have 3 towns close together (Mansfield, Sutton, Kirky) with a combined population of 150k+ (nearly 200k with villages etc), plus others further out, nearly 20 miles from Nottingham, where the County Seat exists. That is too big a population too far away to try and make into one.
Further, the axis of development here is along the A38 and North, continuing into Worksop and Derbyshire via Alfreton / Bolsover / Chesterfield, which cuts across the concept of a unitary council.
I was canvassed by the Tories with a survey a couple of weeks ago for the first time for at least 5 years, and explained that trying to go unitary would guarantee that they did not get my vote in any Local Election :-) .
I have no idea whatsoever how it will go, as our local council - like Mansfield - is now controlled by Independents (who are mainly former LibDems), after various Corbynista Cockups. One was taking an award winning Housing ALMO back into close political control.
My cynicism brain think that it is Tories trying electorally to triangulate former mining areas.
Incidentally, Ashfield Independents Party lead by Jason Zadrozny is currently a very good answer to certain questions on TV Quizzes.
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
I'd say that someone would have to make a complaint, and then we would see.
Salmond's claim for the Judicial Review is (quoting the beeboids):
"Mr Salmond claims that the subsequent investigation into the allegations against him by senior Scottish government civil servants was "unfair and unjust".
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
The last thing we need is organisations (whether Universities or the Scottish Government) running their own kangaroo courts without proper process or representation. We all know about Obama's Title IX shambles in the US education system.
So on this one I support Salmond's right to launch a Judicial Review. Not so clear on the Crowd Funding, though.
Another whopper from Carlotta, there is no criminal investigation at present. Also whilst he should be able to afford it himself , there is no other reason why you would not ask friends, family , etc to help you fight an injustice.
Salmond’s fundraising must be one of the fastest and most successful efforts ever.
Whatever it says though about Salmond’s pull, I can’t see this ending well for the SNP or for the Indy cause.
Which is why it may benefit SLAB. The people have to vote for someone.
But SLAB currently have an English born leader - which is never great for a party trying to win over nationalist voters back to their side.
Plus that leader is not exactly oozing personality or charisma. He does not seem to be breaking through. And that makes their task harder.
People don't have to vote for anyone. They can choose to stay at home.
I am not sure Richard Leonard is a reason to leave the house on polling day.
Richard Leonard may have been born and raised in Yorkshire but he attended the University of Stirling and has lived and worked in Scotland ever since
I have been out but just have to respond to this
You have no idea of how it works. If you are an Englishman you are an Englishman to the Scots no matter how long you have been in Scotland
I lived and worked in Edinburgh for 5 years then married a Scot from Lossiemouth and I am always an Englishman to my family (even though a half Welsh). Indeed when speaking of me one of my wife's Aunts was overheard saying
'You know he is an Englishman, but he is not so bad'
You really need to understand you do not understand the Scots
If you are that nationalist you are unlikely to vote anything other than SNP anyway and of course it was Scottish Labour mbers who elected Leonard in the first place.
As I said if Scottish Labour can regain most of Glasgow and the Central belt from Sturgeon's SNP then Leonard becomes First Minister
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
I'd say that someone would have to make a complaint, and then we would see.
Salmond's claim for the Judicial Review is (quoting the beeboids):
"Mr Salmond claims that the subsequent investigation into the allegations against him by senior Scottish government civil servants was "unfair and unjust".
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
The last thing we need is organisations (whether Universities or the Scottish Government) running their own kangaroo courts without proper process or representation. We all know about Obama's Title IX shambles in the US education system.
So on this one I support Salmond's right to launch a Judicial Review. Not so clear on the Crowd Funding, though.
Another whopper from Carlotta, there is no criminal investigation at present. Also whilst he should be able to afford it himself , there is no other reason why you would not ask friends, family , etc to help you fight an injustice.
There is a massive difference between accepting offers of help from close friends and family and putting a giant begging bowl out on the internet and asking the public to help.
A wealthy man with a highly paid media role begging in public. Not a good look at all.
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
I'd say that someone would have to make a complaint, and then we would see.
Salmond's claim for the Judicial Review is (quoting the beeboids):
"Mr Salmond claims that the subsequent investigation into the allegations against him by senior Scottish government civil servants was "unfair and unjust".
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
The last thing we need is organisations (whether Universities or the Scottish Government) running their own kangaroo courts without proper process or representation. We all know about Obama's Title IX shambles in the US education system.
So on this one I support Salmond's right to launch a Judicial Review. Not so clear on the Crowd Funding, though.
Another whopper from Carlotta, there is no criminal investigation at present. Also whilst he should be able to afford it himself , there is no other reason why you would not ask friends, family , etc to help you fight an injustice.
I think that the police are investigating although what they are investigating I am not entirely sure.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
Stop being an idiot.
I'm not *happy* to call people anti-Semitic or racist; I get no particular enjoyment from it. But if I see it, and it's egregious, I'll call it out. Sometimes I might even be wrong.
If someone thinks something I say or do is racist, I'd like them to point it out to me: they might be right, and we both might learn something. But saying that I readily accept Islamaphobia because I voted Conservative (*) is ridiculous. It also shows how little you actually care about racism: it's all a little joke to you, isn't it?
Corbyn is probably all civility and love with his Jewish friends; but there is an odd habit people have of seeing friends and acquaintances as not being 'other'. That does not mean he cannot be racist against Jews.
(*) ISTR I had three votes at the GE: locals, parish and the GE. I cannot remember which way I voted in them now (although I probably said on here at the time), but I think I didn't vote Conservative as it's a very safe Conservative seat.
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
I'd say that someone would have to make a complaint, and then we would see.
Salmond's claim for the Judicial Review is (quoting the beeboids):
"Mr Salmond claims that the subsequent investigation into the allegations against him by senior Scottish government civil servants was "unfair and unjust".
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
The last thing we need is organisations (whether Universities or the Scottish Government) running their own kangaroo courts without proper process or representation. We all know about Obama's Title IX shambles in the US education system.
So on this one I support Salmond's right to launch a Judicial Review. Not so clear on the Crowd Funding, though.
Another whopper from Carlotta, there is no criminal investigation at present. Also whilst he should be able to afford it himself , there is no other reason why you would not ask friends, family , etc to help you fight an injustice.
There is a massive difference between accepting offers of help from close friends and family and putting a giant begging bowl out on the internet and asking the public to help.
A wealthy man with a highly paid media role begging in public. Not a good look at all.
The money is incidental (and not a huge amount in the scheme of things), I'd imagine Salmond is looking to demonstrate how much wider support he has. On that basis it's succeeded.
Salmond’s fundraising must be one of the fastest and most successful efforts ever.
Whatever it says though about Salmond’s pull, I can’t see this ending well for the SNP or for the Indy cause.
Which is why it may benefit SLAB. The people have to vote for someone.
But SLAB currently have an English born leader - which is never great for a party trying to win over nationalist voters back to their side.
Plus that leader is not exactly oozing personality or charisma. He does not seem to be breaking through. And that makes their task harder.
People don't have to vote for anyone. They can choose to stay at home.
I am not sure Richard Leonard is a reason to leave the house on polling day.
Richard Leonard may have been born and raised in Yorkshire but he attended the University of Stirling and has lived and worked in Scotland ever since
I have been out but just have to respond to this
You have no idea of how it works. If you are an Englishman you are an Englishman to the Scots no matter how long you have been in Scotland
I lived and worked in Edinburgh for 5 years then married a Scot from Lossiemouth and I am always an Englishman to my family (even though a half Welsh). Indeed when speaking of me one of my wife's Aunts was overheard saying
'You know he is an Englishman, but he is not so bad'
You really need to understand you do not understand the Scots
If you are that nationalist you are unlikely to vote anything other than SNP anyway and of course it was Scottish Labour mbers who elected Leonard in the first place.
As I said if Scottish Labour can regain most of Glasgow and the Central belt from Sturgeon's SNP then Leonard becomes First Minister
As I suggested earlier you have no understanding of Scots politics even to think Leonard could be first minister, indeed Ruth would have a better chance
You do know my knowledge of Scots politics goes back over 60 years and of course in those days labour were the only game in town. No more as the SNP walked onto their patch. You may not know nor care but plenty of SNP voters who like their programme for government do not back independence
I doubt you have crossed the border many times and yet you pontificate as if you are an expert on the Scots
And for your information I always voted for the conservative party when I lived in Scotland
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
I'd say that someone would have to make a complaint, and then we would see.
Salmond's claim for the Judicial Review is (quoting the beeboids):
"Mr Salmond claims that the subsequent investigation into the allegations against him by senior Scottish government civil servants was "unfair and unjust".
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
The last thing we need is organisations (whether Universities or the Scottish Government) running their own kangaroo courts without proper process or representation. We all know about Obama's Title IX shambles in the US education system.
So on this one I support Salmond's right to launch a Judicial Review. Not so clear on the Crowd Funding, though.
Another whopper from Carlotta, there is no criminal investigation at present. Also whilst he should be able to afford it himself , there is no other reason why you would not ask friends, family , etc to help you fight an injustice.
There is a massive difference between accepting offers of help from close friends and family and putting a giant begging bowl out on the internet and asking the public to help.
A wealthy man with a highly paid media role begging in public. Not a good look at all.
The money is incidental (and not a huge amount in the scheme of things), I'd imagine Salmond is looking to demonstrate how much wider support he has. On that basis it's succeeded.
You don't win court cases by showing how much support you have.
If that is what he is trying to do, it is clear that he is playing politics and not justice with this move.
On the whole, politicians do run risks when they turn to litigation.
Isn't there currently a Criminal Investigation into the allegations against Mr Salmond? Whether anything comes of them, we don't know, but Police Scotland are involved.
I know his appeal is for funds to support a challenge to the process the Scottish government followed - but the Crowdfunder Condition anything related is very broad.....and his appeal relates to something relating to a criminal investigation.....
I'd say that someone would have to make a complaint, and then we would see.
Salmond's claim for the Judicial Review is (quoting the beeboids):
"Mr Salmond claims that the subsequent investigation into the allegations against him by senior Scottish government civil servants was "unfair and unjust".
Access to the accusations made against you, and to know the identity of your accusers, is a basic point of natural justice / legal principle, and on those points he is correct to question the process.
The last thing we need is organisations (whether Universities or the Scottish Government) running their own kangaroo courts without proper process or representation. We all know about Obama's Title IX shambles in the US education system.
So on this one I support Salmond's right to launch a Judicial Review. Not so clear on the Crowd Funding, though.
Another whopper from Carlotta, there is no criminal investigation at present. Also whilst he should be able to afford it himself , there is no other reason why you would not ask friends, family , etc to help you fight an injustice.
I think that the police are investigating although what they are investigating I am not entirely sure.
I'm in the dark about the facts of the accusations (as Salmond seems to be to some degree), but if there's no physical evidence or witnesses, presumably for better or worse there's only going to be one outcome of any hypothetical police investigation?
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
Stop being an idiot.
I'm not *happy* to call people anti-Semitic or racist; I get no particular enjoyment from it. But if I see it, and it's egregious, I'll call it out. Sometimes I might even be wrong.
If someone thinks something I say or do is racist, I'd like them to point it out to me: they might be right, and we both might learn something. But saying that I readily accept Islamaphobia because I voted Conservative (*) is ridiculous. It also shows how little you actually care about racism: it's all a little joke to you, isn't it?
Corbyn is probably all civility and love with his Jewish friends; but there is an odd habit people have of seeing friends and acquaintances as not being 'other'. That does not mean he cannot be racist against Jews.
(*) ISTR I had three votes at the GE: locals, parish and the GE. I cannot remember which way I voted in them now (although I probably said on here at the time), but I think I didn't vote Conservative as it's a very safe Conservative seat.
You'll forgive me If I don't see your motives as pure as the driven snow. I treat people and interact with them how I feel they do with me (which admittedly isn't very mature in some cases) it feels like cheap political point scoring, that is when you aren't deliberately misinterpreting my posts and then berating me for their lack of clarity when I correct you.
Apologies if I did get your vote wrong though I either misremembered a conversation or swapped you with someone else.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
We have actually arrived at the "some of my best friends are Jewish" moment.
My post left open 2 possibilities, either Jossia's point was invalid because a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
Or it does invalidate it.
If it doesn't then Jossia's original point is meaningless.
If it does then Corbyn can't be racist.
I didn't claim either to be true but if you do want to jump on the Jossia's original point is meaningless train you could at least be a bit more polite about his point whilst doing so....
Logic fail.
I have an elderly acquaintance who can be quite racist (*). In the past he has gone on about immigration and the evils of Islam in front of my wife, who is from a Muslim country. Then he adds words like: "But you're not a foreigner, are you."
It doesn't matter how many decent, kind Muslims he'd meet; they'd automatically not be Muslims. When evidence comes along that counteracts his point of view, he changes the evidence.
Likewise, it's perfectly possible for Corbyn to not think of Jewish friends as being particularly Jewish, or that the fact they're friends with him means they're 'good' Jews, and not like the 'nasty' ones.
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
"someone who is so readily accepting of Islamophobia"
Wow. Just wow.
Go on, give examples please, because now you're just being really, really stupid. And nasty.
You. Voted. Conservative. At. The. Last. Election.
Did I? In the last few years I've also voted Lib Dem, Green, Indy and yes, Labour. And you have evidently missed the many, many occasions I have called out Islamaphobia on here and elsewhere.
You might also want to consider that I'm married to a Turkish lady.
Stop being an idiot.
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
Stop being an idiot.
I'm not *happy* to call people anti-Semitic or racist; I get no particular enjoyment from it. But if I see it, and it's egregious, I'll call it out. Sometimes I might even be wrong.
If someone thinks something I say or do is racist, I'd like them to point it out to me: they might be right, and we both might learn something. But saying that I readily accept Islamaphobia because I voted Conservative (*) is ridiculous. It also shows how little you actually care about racism: it's all a little joke to you, isn't it?
Corbyn is probably all civility and love with his Jewish friends; but there is an odd habit people have of seeing friends and acquaintances as not being 'other'. That does not mean he cannot be racist against Jews.
(*) ISTR I had three votes at the GE: locals, parish and the GE. I cannot remember which way I voted in them now (although I probably said on here at the time), but I think I didn't vote Conservative as it's a very safe Conservative seat.
You'll forgive me If I don't see your motives as pure as the driven snow. I treat people and interact with them how I feel they do with me (which admittedly isn't very mature in some cases) it feels like cheap political point scoring, that is when you aren't deliberately misinterpreting my posts and then berating me for their lack of clarity when I correct you.
Apologies if I did get your vote wrong though I either misremembered a conversation or swapped you with someone else.
I'm not misinterpreting your posts, 'deliberately' or otherwise
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
England still lead the series
Barely. At this rate it will be 2-2 with India having all the momentum going into the decider.
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
England still lead the series
Only for the next 2 days. They have lost this test already.
Salmond’s fundraising must be one of the fastest and most successful efforts ever.
Whatever it says though about Salmond’s pull, I can’t see this ending well for the SNP or for the Indy cause.
Which is why it may benefit SLAB. The people have to vote for someone.
But SLAB currently have an English born leader - which is never great for a party trying to win over nationalist voters back to their side.
Plus that leader is not exactly oozing personality or charisma. He does not seem to be breaking through. And that makes their task harder.
People don't have to vote for anyone. They can choose to stay at home.
I am not sure Richard Leonard is a reason to leave the house on polling day.
Richard Leonard may have been born and raised in Yorkshire but he attended the University of Stirling and has lived and worked in Scotland ever since
I have been out but just have to respond to this
You have no idea of how it works. If you are t he is not so bad'
You really need to understand you do not understand the Scots
If you are that nationalist you are unlikely to vote anything other than SNP anyway and of course it was Scottish Labour mbers who elected Leonard in the first place.
As I said if Scottish Labour can regain most of Glasgow and the Central belt from Sturgeon's SNP then Leonard becomes First Minister
As I suggested earlier you have no understanding of Scots politics even to think Leonard could be first minister, indeed Ruth would have a better chance
You do know my knowledge of Scots politics goes back over 60 years and of course in those days labour were the only game in town. No more as the SNP walked onto their patch. You may not know nor care but plenty of SNP voters who like their programme for government do not back independence
I doubt you have crossed the border many times and yet you pontificate as if you are an expert on the Scots
And for your information I always voted for the conservative party when I lived in Scotland
As part of my work I do training once a year in Edinburgh and have visited the Highlands and Western Isles but regardless while I do not dispute your knowledge of Scotland and that Ruth Davidson has done very well sweeping Scottish rural seats for the Tories and a few prosperous suburbs and market town seats too, most seats in Scotland are in Glasgow and the Central belt.
It is very unlikely the Tories will win there but Labour could do again hence Leonard remains more likely to be the next Unionist First Minister than Davidson
Happy to throw around the racism tag but not so happy when your own is called out.
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
We have actually arrived at the "some of my best friends are Jewish" moment.
My post left open 2 possibilities, either Jossia's point was invalid because a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
Or it does invalidate it.
If it doesn't then Jossia's original point is meaningless.
If it does then Corbyn can't be racist.
I didn't claim either to be true but if you do want to jump on the Jossia's original point is meaningless train you could at least be a bit more polite about his point whilst doing so....
Logic fail.
I have an elderly acquaintance who can be quite racist (*). In the past he has gone on about immigration and the evils of Islam in front of my wife, who is from a Muslim country. Then he adds words like: "But you're not a foreigner, are you."
It doesn't matter how many decent, kind Muslims he'd meet; they'd automatically not be Muslims. When evidence comes along that counteracts his point of view, he changes the evidence.
Likewise, it's perfectly possible for Corbyn to not think of Jewish friends as being particularly Jewish, or that the fact they're friends with him means they're 'good' Jews, and not like the 'nasty' ones.
Racism can be a complex and insidious thing.
(*) Actually, more than one.
Well yeah that was one of the two possibilities, the first one I mentioned.
from my just quoted post
___________________________________ a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it. ___________________________________
Although admittedly maybe I didn't write that clearly enough, I'll make it clearer.
a close relation with a member of the minority group you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
So lover or friend for example. So Corbyn, you or the old guy in your story could be racist towards these groups despite a close relationship with a member of them.
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
England still lead the series
Barely. At this rate it will be 2-2 with India having all the momentum going into the decider.
There are still several days of this test to go let alone the final test
Still tied for second and up 5% on the last general election. As I said their key aim is to beat the Moderates as the main party of the right and ultimately force a Social Democrat and Moderate Grand Coalition like Germany leaving them with opposition as with the AfD
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
England still lead the series
Barely. At this rate it will be 2-2 with India having all the momentum going into the decider.
There are still several days of this test to go let alone the final test
It's 'Marine La Pen hasn't lost this yet' all over again.
The IHRA definition clearly says "Criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." So what's the problem? Which Israel example is unreasonable in that context and why?
This gives example of criticism of Israel being shut down and other places were the definition has run into problems on the basis of the conflation of anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel.
I believe the original author has even stated concerns about it being used for that purpose.
Actually that gives details about one universities interpretation of a different (but similar) definition. That's not the same thing. The examples are here and they make it explicitly clear that criticism of Israel is permissible: https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
So which example do you have an issue with?
Do you have a problem with: "Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust"?
No it went further than that, it listed other places where there definition had run into trouble on the basis of conflating racism and criticism of Israel.
My issue would be that which conflates criticism of Israel with racism, in the same way I would have a problem if someone conflated criticism of N. Korea or Venezuela or one of many other countries.
There was an example of a Jewish Holocaust survivor who had to change the name of his talk and had it recorded on the basis of the rules. I assume the rules only affected him because he is a terrible anti-Semite rather than a strong critic of Israel....
That's just not true it doesn't conflate criticism of Israel as racism. It explicitly says criticism of Isrsel is not racism. It gives examples that should all be reasonable eg accusing Jews of supporting Israel over the own country as being racism. Which it is. The same as accusing all Catholics of allegiance to Rome over the own nation is.
There is no example at all which makes criticism of Israel racism.
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
Well yeah that was one of the two possibilities, the first one I mentioned.
from my just quoted post
___________________________________ a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it. ___________________________________
Although admittedly maybe I didn't write that clearly enough, I'll make it clearer.
a close relation with a member of the minority group you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
So lover or friend for example. So Corbyn, you or the old guy in your story could be racist towards these groups despite a close relationship with a member of them.
You wrote: "Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot."
So we are agreed that that comment is, in fact, a pretty meaningless defence of Corbyn.
I know where you're heading with your last sentence, and I'm LOLing at you.
In my defence, I've commented about Islamaphobia, sexism and other 'isms' on here many times in the past. I'm not saying I'm always right, but it's not as though I'm just picking on anti-Semitism because of the mess your party is in, and in fact many of the people I've criticised in the past probably identify as Kippers, Conservatives or Lib Dems.
Actually that gives details about one universities interpretation of a different (but similar) definition. That's not the same thing. The examples are here and they make it explicitly clear that criticism of Israel is permissible: https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
So which example do you have an issue with?
Do you have a problem with: "Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust"?
No it went further than that, it listed other places where there definition had run into trouble on the basis of conflating racism and criticism of Israel.
My issue would be that which conflates criticism of Israel with racism, in the same way I would have a problem if someone conflated criticism of N. Korea or Venezuela or one of many other countries.
There was an example of a Jewish Holocaust survivor who had to change the name of his talk and had it recorded on the basis of the rules. I assume the rules only affected him because he is a terrible anti-Semite rather than a strong critic of Israel....
That's just not true it doesn't conflate criticism of Israel as racism. It explicitly says criticism of Isrsel is not racism. It gives examples that should all be reasonable eg accusing Jews of supporting Israel over the own country as being racism. Which it is. The same as accusing all Catholics of allegiance to Rome over the own nation is.
There is no example at all which makes criticism of Israel racism.
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
If we are going to move outside particular different racial groups then some of the comments about the left, the Labour leadership and their advisers are in a similar style in regards to Russia and I imagine a couple of others.
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
England still lead the series
Barely. At this rate it will be 2-2 with India having all the momentum going into the decider.
There are still several days of this test to go let alone the final test
It's 'Marine La Pen hasn't lost this yet' all over again.
Le Pen came first in most regions and departments of France in the first round of the 2017 presidential election even if she comprehensively lost the runoff
Well yeah that was one of the two possibilities, the first one I mentioned.
from my just quoted post
___________________________________ a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it. ___________________________________
Although admittedly maybe I didn't write that clearly enough, I'll make it clearer.
a close relation with a member of the minority group you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
So lover or friend for example. So Corbyn, you or the old guy in your story could be racist towards these groups despite a close relationship with a member of them.
You wrote: "Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot."
So we are agreed that that comment is, in fact, a pretty meaningless defence of Corbyn.
I know where you're heading with your last sentence, and I'm LOLing at you.
In my defence, I've commented about Islamaphobia, sexism and other 'isms' on here many times in the past. I'm not saying I'm always right, but it's not as though I'm just picking on anti-Semitism because of the mess your party is in, and in fact many of the people I've criticised in the past probably identify as Kippers, Conservatives or Lib Dems.
Well it was as meaningless as your similar comment, that is my point. If it is an invalid defence of Corbyn when I used it in reply then it was invalid when you used it originally.
Unsurprising - the right-wing populist vote is fuelled primarily by rage, which is a short-lived emotion in most human beings, even those with strong political passions. If events occur that rekindle it, their vote will surge, but if not, it will gradually drift down.
Unsurprising - the right-wing populist vote is fuelled primarily by rage, which is a short-lived emotion in most human beings, even those with strong political passions. If events occur that rekindle it, their vote will surge, but if not, it will gradually drift down.
Swedish Democrats still 5% up on the last general election and just 1% away from becoming the main opposition party in Sweden and joining France and Italy where the populist right has overtaken the centre right
Well yeah that was one of the two possibilities, the first one I mentioned.
from my just quoted post
___________________________________ a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it. ___________________________________
Although admittedly maybe I didn't write that clearly enough, I'll make it clearer.
a close relation with a member of the minority group you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
So lover or friend for example. So Corbyn, you or the old guy in your story could be racist towards these groups despite a close relationship with a member of them.
You wrote: "Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot."
So we are agreed that that comment is, in fact, a pretty meaningless defence of Corbyn.
I know where you're heading with your last sentence, and I'm LOLing at you.
In my defence, I've commented about Islamaphobia, sexism and other 'isms' on here many times in the past. I'm not saying I'm always right, but it's not as though I'm just picking on anti-Semitism because of the mess your party is in, and in fact many of the people I've criticised in the past probably identify as Kippers, Conservatives or Lib Dems.
Well it was as meaningless as your similar comment, that is my point. If it is an invalid defence of Corbyn when I used it in reply then it was invalid when you used it originally.
Not really. In Corbyn's case, he has repeatedly veered onto ground that could be considered anti-Semitic. In my view he's gone well over that line, and you obviously differ.
In my case, no-one (at least as far as I'm aware) has accused me of being Islamaphobic, or having sympathy with Islamaphobia. At least until your comment.
Besides, if I was genuinely and gratuitously Islamaphobic I'd be sleeping in my tent. If I was lucky.
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
If you're doing so simple because of their race then yes its racist. If you're doing so because of their own comments say it then no its not. Is that unreasonable?
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
If you're doing so simple because of their race then yes its racist. If you're doing so because of their own comments say it then no its not. Is that unreasonable?
Part of this issue is the conflation of race and religion.
Personally I subscribe to the idea that you are not born with any faith. It is something you (forced to?) acquire from family/culture as an inescapable part of your upbringing. There are those who 'find it' later in life but they are far rarer.
There is an overlap between certain races and certain religions - but no direct correlation.
I cannot see it would ever be racist to accuse a Catholic of anything simply because of their Catholicism.
Conflating race and religion/faith is really not helpful. We should developed more nuanced language in these difficult areas to avoid confusions that really do nothing to inform the debate.
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
If you're doing so simple because of their race then yes its racist. If you're doing so because of their own comments say it then no its not. Is that unreasonable?
Part of this issue is the conflation of race and religion.
Personally I subscribe to the idea that you are not born with any faith. It is something you (forced to?) acquire from family/culture as an inescapable part of your upbringing. There are those who 'find it' later in life but they are far rarer.
There is an overlap between certain races and certain religions - but no direct correlation.
I cannot see it would ever be racist to accuse a Catholic of anything simply because of their Catholicism.
Conflating race and religion/faith is really not helpful. We should developed more nuanced language in these difficult areas to avoid confusions that really do nothing to inform the debate.
I agree with that. It gets doubly confusing with Judaism as it is both a race and a religion. So someone can be an ethnically Jewish atheist.
Still tied for second and up 5% on the last general election. As I said their key aim is to beat the Moderates as the main party of the right and ultimately force a Social Democrat and Moderate Grand Coalition like Germany leaving them with opposition as with the AfD
An S+M coalition for Sweden? Or would they be more M&S?
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
You must write a thread header on the perils of selling off school playing fields, and how it is unpatriotic to make children revise sums and old battles when they should be out practising their spin bowling and free kicks.
Unsurprising - the right-wing populist vote is fuelled primarily by rage, which is a short-lived emotion in most human beings, even those with strong political passions. If events occur that rekindle it, their vote will surge, but if not, it will gradually drift down.
The fascinating thing is both the Social Democrats and Moderates are down 5% on the last GE. The Swedish Democrats are up 5% and so are the Left Party so both centre-left and centre-right parties are losing votes to more extreme parties.
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
If you're doing so simple because of their race then yes its racist. If you're doing so because of their own comments say it then no its not. Is that unreasonable?
Part of this issue is the conflation of race and religion.
Personally I subscribe to the idea that you are not born with any faith. It is something you (forced to?) acquire from family/culture as an inescapable part of your upbringing. There are those who 'find it' later in life but they are far rarer.
There is an overlap between certain races and certain religions - but no direct correlation.
I cannot see it would ever be racist to accuse a Catholic of anything simply because of their Catholicism.
Conflating race and religion/faith is really not helpful. We should developed more nuanced language in these difficult areas to avoid confusions that really do nothing to inform the debate.
I agree with that. It gets doubly confusing with Judaism as it is both a race and a religion. So someone can be an ethnically Jewish atheist.
It is more complicated than that. The Jewish faith does not demand you believe in God, so you can be an ethnically and religiously Jewish atheist. AIUI DYOR etc.
Still tied for second and up 5% on the last general election. As I said their key aim is to beat the Moderates as the main party of the right and ultimately force a Social Democrat and Moderate Grand Coalition like Germany leaving them with opposition as with the AfD
An S+M coalition for Sweden? Or would they be more M&S?
Would it be racist to accuse a particular Catholic (e.g. Rees-Mogg) of allegiance to Rome over his own country? Would it be racist to accuse a particular Remainer (take your pick) of allegiance to Brussels over their own country (traitor). Would it be racist to accuse a particular Jew of allegiance to Israel over their own country? What's the difference?
If you're doing so simple because of their race then yes its racist. If you're doing so because of their own comments say it then no its not. Is that unreasonable?
Part of this issue is the conflation of race and religion.
Personally I subscribe to the idea that you are not born with any faith. It is something you (forced to?) acquire from family/culture as an inescapable part of your upbringing. There are those who 'find it' later in life but they are far rarer.
There is an overlap between certain races and certain religions - but no direct correlation.
I cannot see it would ever be racist to accuse a Catholic of anything simply because of their Catholicism.
Conflating race and religion/faith is really not helpful. We should developed more nuanced language in these difficult areas to avoid confusions that really do nothing to inform the debate.
It's more complex than that IMV - it's the three factors of race, religion and culture all interplaying. As an example, an Indian friend of ours recently had some problems with her parents trying to encourage her into an arranged marriage - an 'encouragement' that I think went a little too far. She, and her family, are Christians.
Likewise, I have little doubt that FGM is a cultural issue rather than a racial or religious one.
Still tied for second and up 5% on the last general election. As I said their key aim is to beat the Moderates as the main party of the right and ultimately force a Social Democrat and Moderate Grand Coalition like Germany leaving them with opposition as with the AfD
An S+M coalition for Sweden? Or would they be more M&S?
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
You must write a thread header on the perils of selling off school playing fields, and how it is unpatriotic to make children revise sums and old battles when they should be out practising their spin bowling and free kicks.
Sounds pretty uncontentious to me. Not sure what debate such a thread header could actually generate.
Surely it is time for a VONC in the House. What sort of government has England 36/4 on the first morning of a test having chosen to bat? What hope has the government got of sorting out details like Brexit if they can't even find 4 men in England who can bat? This country is going to the dogs, it really is.
You must write a thread header on the perils of selling off school playing fields, and how it is unpatriotic to make children revise sums and old battles when they should be out practising their spin bowling and free kicks.
Sounds pretty uncontentious to me. Not sure what debate such a thread header could actually generate.
I object. We need to concentrate on batting and pace not spin.
After a modest amount of google-fu am I at all right in saying that Dominic Raab comes closest to being the only Jewish member of the cabinet or shadow cabinet?
No doubt the Indians will proceed to bat out most of two days before declaring and taking a number of wickets in the fading light either tomorrow or Saturday.
Comments
But ,y view of this is that abuse of process has now been thoroughly institutionalised in our legal system where allegations of sexual harrassment are concerned.
There was a recent case of Richard Holden described over on Con Home, where the police simply failed to interview witnesses who might have supported the defence.
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/07/richard-holden-my-nightmare-experience-at-the-hands-of-the-police-and-the-cps.html
Up here - in Ashfield - local rumours from 10 years previously about the Lib Dem candidate miraculaously reemerged a few weeks before the 2015 Election. The majority in 2010 had been tiny, and it was a marginal.
The police / CPS maintained that they had a case for the best part of 3 years, then folded at the door of the Court.
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/cleared-councillor-jason-zadrozny-vows-703217
It is horrific.
I'm getting a '403 - Forbidden: Access is denied.
You do not have permission to view this directory or page using the credentials that you supplied.' message
http://www.o2recycle.co.uk/
Edit - Scrap that, I can view it now
None of them can stand being ignored.
Maybe why they are all such pals...
The Lib Dems’ new slogan is “Demand Better” – and the trouble is that many voters will.
The image of Vince Cable next to the phrase at conference will be particularly painful to party staffers.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/08/lib-dems-new-slogan-demand-better-and-trouble-many-voters-will
This is a good thread on the subject.
https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1031488881869373445
My issue would be that which conflates criticism of Israel with racism, in the same way I would have a problem if someone conflated criticism of N. Korea or Venezuela or one of many other countries.
There was an example of a Jewish Holocaust survivor who had to change the name of his talk and had it recorded on the basis of the rules. I assume the rules only affected him because he is a terrible anti-Semite rather than a strong critic of Israel....
You have told me before you voted Conservative at the last election.
Corbyn has Jewish friends but he is apparently racist against them, so you stop being an idiot, or at least don't get upset when people use your own standards against you.
There is no example at all which makes criticism of Israel racism.
Jonathan Agnew
BBC cricket correspondent on Test Match Special
It's nice to hear that word: rubbish. We're 11 minutes in.
To clarify I don't actually think everyone who voted Conservative is an Islamophobe.
Lay the draw.
Fat Eck (like Boris) wanted to be King.
*Delete as applicable.
Or it does invalidate it.
If it doesn't then Jossia's original point is meaningless.
If it does then Corbyn can't be racist.
I didn't claim either to be true but if you do want to jump on the Jossia's original point is meaningless train you could at least be a bit more polite about his point whilst doing so....
Further, the axis of development here is along the A38 and North, continuing into Worksop and Derbyshire via Alfreton / Bolsover / Chesterfield, which cuts across the concept of a unitary council.
I was canvassed by the Tories with a survey a couple of weeks ago for the first time for at least 5 years, and explained that trying to go unitary would guarantee that they did not get my vote in any Local Election :-) .
I have no idea whatsoever how it will go, as our local council - like Mansfield - is now controlled by Independents (who are mainly former LibDems), after various Corbynista Cockups. One was taking an award winning Housing ALMO back into close political control.
My cynicism brain think that it is Tories trying electorally to triangulate former mining areas.
Incidentally, Ashfield Independents Party lead by Jason Zadrozny is currently a very good answer to certain questions on TV Quizzes.
As I said if Scottish Labour can regain most of Glasgow and the Central belt from Sturgeon's SNP then Leonard becomes First Minister
A wealthy man with a highly paid media role begging in public. Not a good look at all.
I'm not *happy* to call people anti-Semitic or racist; I get no particular enjoyment from it. But if I see it, and it's egregious, I'll call it out. Sometimes I might even be wrong.
If someone thinks something I say or do is racist, I'd like them to point it out to me: they might be right, and we both might learn something. But saying that I readily accept Islamaphobia because I voted Conservative (*) is ridiculous. It also shows how little you actually care about racism: it's all a little joke to you, isn't it?
Corbyn is probably all civility and love with his Jewish friends; but there is an odd habit people have of seeing friends and acquaintances as not being 'other'. That does not mean he cannot be racist against Jews.
(*) ISTR I had three votes at the GE: locals, parish and the GE. I cannot remember which way I voted in them now (although I probably said on here at the time), but I think I didn't vote Conservative as it's a very safe Conservative seat.
You do know my knowledge of Scots politics goes back over 60 years and of course in those days labour were the only game in town. No more as the SNP walked onto their patch. You may not know nor care but plenty of SNP voters who like their programme for government do not back independence
I doubt you have crossed the border many times and yet you pontificate as if you are an expert on the Scots
And for your information I always voted for the conservative party when I lived in Scotland
If that is what he is trying to do, it is clear that he is playing politics and not justice with this move.
On the whole, politicians do run risks when they turn to litigation.
Apologies if I did get your vote wrong though I either misremembered a conversation or swapped you with someone else.
I have an elderly acquaintance who can be quite racist (*). In the past he has gone on about immigration and the evils of Islam in front of my wife, who is from a Muslim country. Then he adds words like: "But you're not a foreigner, are you."
It doesn't matter how many decent, kind Muslims he'd meet; they'd automatically not be Muslims. When evidence comes along that counteracts his point of view, he changes the evidence.
Likewise, it's perfectly possible for Corbyn to not think of Jewish friends as being particularly Jewish, or that the fact they're friends with him means they're 'good' Jews, and not like the 'nasty' ones.
Racism can be a complex and insidious thing.
(*) Actually, more than one.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45352622
Can we make this the last stupid balloon protest nonsense.
It is very unlikely the Tories will win there but Labour could do again hence Leonard remains more likely to be the next Unionist First Minister than Davidson
from my just quoted post
___________________________________
a close relationship with the minority you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
___________________________________
Although admittedly maybe I didn't write that clearly enough, I'll make it clearer.
a close relation with a member of the minority group you are accused of being racist towards doesn't invalidate it.
So lover or friend for example. So Corbyn, you or the old guy in your story could be racist towards these groups despite a close relationship with a member of them.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1035130278400933888
So we are agreed that that comment is, in fact, a pretty meaningless defence of Corbyn.
I know where you're heading with your last sentence, and I'm LOLing at you.
In my defence, I've commented about Islamaphobia, sexism and other 'isms' on here many times in the past. I'm not saying I'm always right, but it's not as though I'm just picking on anti-Semitism because of the mess your party is in, and in fact many of the people I've criticised in the past probably identify as Kippers, Conservatives or Lib Dems.
In my case, no-one (at least as far as I'm aware) has accused me of being Islamaphobic, or having sympathy with Islamaphobia. At least until your comment.
Besides, if I was genuinely and gratuitously Islamaphobic I'd be sleeping in my tent. If I was lucky.
Personally I subscribe to the idea that you are not born with any faith. It is something you (forced to?) acquire from family/culture as an inescapable part of your upbringing. There are those who 'find it' later in life but they are far rarer.
There is an overlap between certain races and certain religions - but no direct correlation.
I cannot see it would ever be racist to accuse a Catholic of anything simply because of their Catholicism.
Conflating race and religion/faith is really not helpful. We should developed more nuanced language in these difficult areas to avoid confusions that really do nothing to inform the debate.
Likewise, I have little doubt that FGM is a cultural issue rather than a racial or religious one.