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SystemSystem Posts: 12,114
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Allies of Boris worried that Tory MPs will practice safe X to avoid waking up with a dumb blonde

Tory bosses urged to change leadership rules so Boris Johnson will have a better chance of being next PM https://t.co/NJvTscWK9n

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    First, and thanks for the header, TSE!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    quasi-AV? More like multi-round FPTP ;)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,654
    edited August 2018

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum
    Really? What did they do?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Brought up on a previous thread

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/violent-thug-went-rampage-leicester-1936825

    Actually a different link provided but somebody mentioned it in reference to cannabis which I thought was a bit strange as the original link didn't mention cannabis. This one does, but unsurprisingly it turns out it wasn't the cause of this incident but not taking his medication was.

    It is unsurprising that cannabis wasn't the cause of this as we don't actually have evidence of cannabis causing mental illness, we do have a correlation and a link with smoking using foil for example and a correlation with people with mental illnesses and cannabis use. This follows a similar pattern with smoking though. You could argue similarly with alcohol but alcohol does actually cause mental illness whereas we do not have evidence of that being the case with marijuana.

    Our modern version of 'reefer madness' with the newspapers carrying headlines about 'super skunk' is very exciting but just as much based on facts as the reefer madness propaganda was. Look to actual scientists, say government drug advisors that get fired and people like that. Not journalists who want headlines to sell papers or people who can't tell the difference between 'spice' 'legal highs' and marijuana. You may as well be talking about crack cocaine and fizzy drinks for the difference to health (mental and physical) between them.

    Skunk with higher THC levels is simply stronger marijuana, you wouldn't drink a pint of wine like you would a pint of beer but that doesn't make wine some brand new drug in a completely different class from beer, wine is just a slightly different stronger alcohol.

    This is why I do still want marijuana legalised because people incorrectly blaming marijuana for some guy with mental health issues and with all the baggage that holds society and individuals (more often minorities) back because of that is stupid. The only way we are going to move forward is with evidence based policy making not one that pleases right wing newspapers who like scary headlines or people who don't even understand what they are talking about.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    It is worse than that: they think they did not make enough personal attacks on Boris or Gove. Fast forward to GE2017 and the attacks on Corbyn's evil links, oh, and bye bye Tory majority. There needs to be a positive reason to vote Remain or Conservative, but there wasn't one (unless you really, really like fox-hunting).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Brought up on a previous thread

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/violent-thug-went-rampage-leicester-1936825

    Actually a different link provided but somebody mentioned it in reference to cannabis which I thought was a bit strange as the original link didn't mention cannabis. This one does, but unsurprisingly it turns out it wasn't the cause of this incident but not taking his medication was.

    It is unsurprising that cannabis wasn't the cause of this as we don't actually have evidence of cannabis causing mental illness, we do have a correlation and a link with smoking using foil for example and a correlation with people with mental illnesses and cannabis use. This follows a similar pattern with smoking though. You could argue similarly with alcohol but alcohol does actually cause mental illness whereas we do not have evidence of that being the case with marijuana.

    Our modern version of 'reefer madness' with the newspapers carrying headlines about 'super skunk' is very exciting but just as much based on facts as the reefer madness propaganda was. Look to actual scientists, say government drug advisors that get fired and people like that. Not journalists who want headlines to sell papers or people who can't tell the difference between 'spice' 'legal highs' and marijuana. You may as well be talking about crack cocaine and fizzy drinks for the difference to health (mental and physical) between them.

    Skunk with higher THC levels is simply stronger marijuana, you wouldn't drink a pint of wine like you would a pint of beer but that doesn't make wine some brand new drug in a completely different class from beer, wine is just a slightly different stronger alcohol.

    This is why I do still want marijuana legalised because people incorrectly blaming marijuana for some guy with mental health issues and with all the baggage that holds society and individuals (more often minorities) back because of that is stupid. The only way we are going to move forward is with evidence based policy making not one that pleases right wing newspapers who like scary headlines or people who don't even understand what they are talking about.

    It's all very well saying that correlation doesn't imply causation, but you know what? People who design medical studies know that and correct for it, and once you have made the necessary corrections correlation can give you a pretty big fucking clue. I know (don't ask) a lot of psychiatrists and they all believe the numerous studies which tend to show that cannabis psychosis exists, not in a doctrinaire and gammonish reefer madness kind of way but because is a problem whose consequences they deal with.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    It is worse than that: they think they did not make enough personal attacks on Boris or Gove. Fast forward to GE2017 and the attacks on Corbyn's evil links, oh, and bye bye Tory majority. There needs to be a positive reason to vote Remain or Conservative, but there wasn't one (unless you really, really like fox-hunting).
    Yep. As Roger showed the other day, LEAVE did paint a positive picture of the benefits of leaving the EU (however questionable) of “a better NHS” while REMAIN lacked a positive vision focussing on the negative. “Don’t tell me why the other guy is rubbish, tell me why I should vote for YOU.”
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    It is a slow news day. The BBC's news site leads on an American domestic story, the death of John McCain. Then we are told about dinosaurs, two men who aren't boxers boxing, and that the racing authorities are worried about Brexit.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FPT discussing the wickedness of passport checks in the CTA


    Sir, – I’d like to add my voice to that of JH Martin (May 16th) regarding the woeful queues at Dublin Airport immigration. But what makes this baffling is that UK visitors have to go through this rigmarole, the same as visitors from anywhere else in the world, despite our much-vaunted and supposedly valued Common Travel Area. Yet when I travel back to the UK, the authorities there keep their side of the bargain. I never have to pass through immigration and am treated much as an internal UK traveller.

    How can we mope and moan about Brexit barriers being introduced when we haven’t made an effort to take advantage of existing agreements to make life easier for trade and travel between Ireland and the UK? – Yours, etc,

    DAVID CLARKE,


    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/passport-control-1.3097967?mode=amp

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited August 2018
    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    It is worse than that: they think they did not make enough personal attacks on Boris or Gove. Fast forward to GE2017 and the attacks on Corbyn's evil links, oh, and bye bye Tory majority. There needs to be a positive reason to vote Remain or Conservative, but there wasn't one (unless you really, really like fox-hunting).
    Yep. As Roger showed the other day, LEAVE did paint a positive picture of the benefits of leaving the EU (however questionable) of “a better NHS” while REMAIN lacked a positive vision focussing on the negative. “Don’t tell me why the other guy is rubbish, tell me why I should vote for YOU.”
    Yes, and even Trump, among the lies and libels that comprised his campaign, promised his followers he would bring back their jobs and industries. I am part way through the book RCS recommended last week, Everything Trump Touches Dies: A Republican Strategist Gets Real About the Worst President Ever and so far that has not been discussed; maybe it will come.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Ishmael_Z said:

    It's all very well saying that correlation doesn't imply causation, but you know what? People who design medical studies know that and correct for it, and once you have made the necessary corrections correlation can give you a pretty big fucking clue. I know (don't ask) a lot of psychiatrists and they all believe the numerous studies which tend to show that cannabis psychosis exists, not in a doctrinaire and gammonish reefer madness kind of way but because is a problem whose consequences they deal with.
    Cannabis psychosis probably does exist and affect a tiny percentage of the population with the trigger for psychosis, smaller than those with extreme reactions to allergies for things like nuts. Although there does need to be education on not smoking with foil, rather than flapping off arms and saying marijuana makes everyone crazy that would be a practical step and I do wonder how the figures would align then.

    What it does not it do is alone send someone into a mad violent rage (as in the link). The idea that we should criminalise vast numbers of people and waste inordinate resources for a threat that is less than the problem we cause from the illegality of it is nonsense though. This is where the gammon element of the papers and clueless people moralising cames in.

    If we really wanted to help we could work on discovering those who are prone to psychosis and provide support to them, those who think simply stopping them getting marijuana will help them are kidding themselves. We could even devote some of the resources saved or earned through taxation to mental health and this very area. It won't go down well with the gammon element though.

    Also the super skunk thing is nonsense. People with the trigger can still be triggered by lower levels of THC weed, it is like getting drunk, beer will still do the job.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20

    Ivanka is the president's daughter. Her mother, his ex, is Ivana without the k.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited August 2018

    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20

    Ivanka is the president's daughter. Her mother, his ex, is Ivana without the k.
    So that’s his (current) wife and daughter who have shown him up so far, apart from all the other politicians, Republican and Democrat, paying respects.....
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    This period will go down, of course, as TMay's finest hour. A principled woman doing her duty following the referendum result whilst causing the least amount of damage to the economy and our way of life.

    Lol. Bit busy this evening, but When we have time we will explain to you what BINO is, and how it’s architects will be remembered. In the meantime, two words.

    Vassal.

    State.
    Chequers Deal still technically ends free movement and allows UK free trade deals while getting a Deal to protect the economy.

    It is the best middle ground between diehard Remainers who want to reverse Brexit or stay in the single market with free movement (which really would be BINO) and diehard Leavers who want hard Brexit and No Deal with the EU at all
    Mate, you don’t get it. There is no Chequers deal. You can’t make a deal negotiatimg with yourself.
    The EU are moving towards it

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6042765/amp/EU-offer-UK-stay-single-market-goods-without-free-movement.html
    No, they are not. They are saying that they might allow the UK to follow EU rules on goods and not on services PROVIDED that the UK is in a full customs union with the EU, not May's ridiculous customs partnership which they have completely rejected.

    Since that makes an independent trade policy impossible, it will breach May's latest set of red lines and lead to the resignation of the rest of the Leavers. That is before we even get to her sellout on free movement that will follow.

    But May will do it anyway, because she is a traitorous Remainer whose only interest is in siding with the establishment and invalidating the referendum result. Luckily, she will be forced from office and replaced with a Leaver. I find I am supporting Boris not because he is any good, but because it will be funny to see the collective meltdown from the PB great and good who somehow think that the Tories are going to elect another Remainer to replace May.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    This period will go down, of course, as TMay's finest hour. A principled woman doing her duty following the referendum result whilst causing the least amount of damage to the economy and our way of life.

    Lol. Bit busy this evening, but When we have time we will explain to you what BINO is, and how it’s architects will be remembered. In the meantime, two words.

    Vassal.

    State.
    Chequers Deal still technically ends free movement and allows UK free trade deals while getting a Deal to protect the economy.

    It is the best middle ground between diehard Remainers who want to reverse Brexit or stay in the single market with free movement (which really would be BINO) and diehard Leavers who want hard Brexit and No Deal with the EU at all
    Mate, you don’t get it. There is no Chequers deal. You can’t make a deal negotiatimg with yourself.
    The EU are moving towards it

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6042765/amp/EU-offer-UK-stay-single-market-goods-without-free-movement.html
    No, they are not. They are saying that they might allow the UK to follow EU rules on goods and not on services PROVIDED that the UK is in a full customs union with the EU, not May's ridiculous customs partnership which they have completely rejected.

    Since that makes an independent trade policy impossible, it will breach May's latest set of red lines and lead to the resignation of the rest of the Leavers. That is before we even get to her sellout on free movement that will follow.

    But May will do it anyway, because she is a traitorous Remainer whose only interest is in siding with the establishment and invalidating the referendum result. Luckily, she will be forced from office and replaced with a Leaver. I find I am supporting Boris not because he is any good, but because it will be funny to see the collective meltdown from the PB great and good who somehow think that the Tories are going to elect another Remainer to replace May.
    A traitor would be working against the best interests of the UK. That seems to be an overused word but if I were to use it, it would be those who walk in step with Russian foreign policy aims that I would looking to.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies. Since their hands are on the tiller, that should be far more concerning than any deficiencies among Remainers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not at all. Words are cheap, and some Leavers post-referendum can afford to virtue-signal that they don’t really hate migrants while some Remainers have an increased appreciation of their value.

    Meanwhile, in the world of action, the world you choose to ignore, far right terrorism is on the rise and the Conservative party, the party of government, is slowly being taken over by mad conspiracy theorists.

    Most importantly, the country is heading for a Brexit settlement that will command no legitimacy from anyone because the xenophobic lies that Leave told cannot be honoured in any settlement that does not attack the country economically. The spiral of social decline is about to ratchet down another notch.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited August 2018
    The ability of MPs to filter the choice given to members is there for good reason, and Corbyn's election will underline its sense to Tory MPs. I would be surprised if any rule change that allowed members to override it completely were to be accepted by the Conservative Party.

    Further, the flaw in the revised approach is that it would directly and overtly reveal that a new leader didn't have the support of their parliamentary colleagues, setting him or her up in a Corbyn position from the outset. Tory MPs may be stupid in lots of ways but they will be able to see that this would put them in an impossible position.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not at all. Words are cheap, and some Leavers post-referendum can afford to virtue-signal that they don’t really hate migrants while some Remainers have an increased appreciation of their value.

    Meanwhile, in the world of action, the world you choose to ignore, far right terrorism is on the rise and the Conservative party, the party of government, is slowly being taken over by mad conspiracy theorists.

    Most importantly, the country is heading for a Brexit settlement that will command no legitimacy from anyone because the xenophobic lies that Leave told cannot be honoured in any settlement that does not attack the country economically. The spiral of social decline is about to ratchet down another notch.
    To be fair, it’s harder to spot these trends from Asia, Australia, the UAE, the USA or wherever the more enthusiastic Leavers have already left for.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not at all. Words are cheap, and some Leavers post-referendum can afford to virtue-signal that they don’t really hate migrants while some Remainers have an increased appreciation of their value.

    Meanwhile, in the world of action, the world you choose to ignore, far right terrorism is on the rise and the Conservative party, the party of government, is slowly being taken over by mad conspiracy theorists.

    Most importantly, the country is heading for a Brexit settlement that will command no legitimacy from anyone because the xenophobic lies that Leave told cannot be honoured in any settlement that does not attack the country economically. The spiral of social decline is about to ratchet down another notch.
    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not at all. Words are cheap, and some Leavers post-referendum can afford to virtue-signal that they don’t really hate migrants while some Remainers have an increased appreciation of their value.

    Meanwhile, in the world of action, the world you choose to ignore, far right terrorism is on the rise and the Conservative party, the party of government, is slowly being taken over by mad conspiracy theorists.

    Most importantly, the country is heading for a Brexit settlement that will command no legitimacy from anyone because the xenophobic lies that Leave told cannot be honoured in any settlement that does not attack the country economically. The spiral of social decline is about to ratchet down another notch.
    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
    The whole thing is a shitshow. Every course from here is downwards. It will be the work of generations to alter that now.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    matt said:

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not at all. Words are cheap, and some Leavers post-referendum can afford to virtue-signal that they don’t really hate migrants while some Remainers have an increased appreciation of their value.

    Meanwhile, in the world of action, the world you choose to ignore, far right terrorism is on the rise and the Conservative party, the party of government, is slowly being taken over by mad conspiracy theorists.

    Most importantly, the country is heading for a Brexit settlement that will command no legitimacy from anyone because the xenophobic lies that Leave told cannot be honoured in any settlement that does not attack the country economically. The spiral of social decline is about to ratchet down another notch.
    To be fair, it’s harder to spot these trends from Asia, Australia, the UAE, the USA or wherever the more enthusiastic Leavers have already left for.
    +1

    And from a distance it is more fun to advocate risky experimentation, for others.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited August 2018

    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20

    Ivanka Kushner (nee Trump) is the president's daughter, not his ex.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, to be fair, it is a refreshingly open and honest approach to wanting to gerrymander an electoral system to your advantage. The strength of the Conservative system is that it prevents someone unacceptable to MPs becoming their leader. Seeking to abolish that in favour of some sort of Corbynite idiocy is drunken madness.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Any rule that makes it difficult for Boris to become PM is to be applauded.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    daodao said:

    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20

    Ivanka Kushner (nee Trump) is the president's daughter, not his ex.
    The evil bit inside me wonders if that might be the next scandal to hit Trump ... ;)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    'Whilst Boris Johnson as Prime Minister/Tory leader appalls enough Tory MPs in the way the prospect of pineapple on pizza appalls all right thinking people I’m not expecting him to be Theresa May’s successor under the current rules.'

    Mr Eagles.

    'Appals' has only one L (unless you are secretly an American).

    Good pun on the safe X though.
  • daodao said:

    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20

    Ivanka Kushner (nee Trump) is the president's daughter, not his ex.

    Given the kind of bloke we know Trump is I would not rule out the ex bit.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited August 2018

    daodao said:

    Even the ex comes up with a better tribute than Trump:

    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1033576502959456256?s=20

    Ivanka Kushner (nee Trump) is the president's daughter, not his ex.
    The evil bit inside me wonders if that might be the next scandal to hit Trump ... ;)
    He did once make some, umm, rather strange comments about her. When she was fourteen...

    Edit - I find she was in fact 16.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-ivanka-trump-creepiest-most-unsettling-comments-a-roundup-a7353876.html

    Not sure that gets rid of the problem...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    FPT: thanks to Mr. B, yesterday (I'd left but just saw it now) for the explanation on Raikkonen.
  • If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?
  • The Tories are turning into the English Nationalist party. At some point sooner rather than later that will be reflected in the choice of leader. As Labour has shown, most MPs want a quiet life. They’ll give members what they want. An anti-Semite v a dog-whistling friend to white supremacists is a tantalising prospect.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited August 2018

    The Tories are turning into the English Nationalist party. At some point sooner rather than later that will be reflected in the choice of leader. As Labour has shown, most MPs want a quiet life. They’ll give members what they want. An anti-Semite v a dog-whistling friend to white supremacists is a tantalising prospect.

    The only way Boris becomes leader is if he is one of only two candidates following defeat in the next general election.

    I don't think Tory members (edit - except possibly HYUFD) have been quite so ready to forget their error over IDS as Labour have over Corbyn. They wouldn't make him PM, but they might make him LOTO.

    Incidentally following on from the discussion on the last thread, Asquith was considered Leader of the Opposition from 1918 to 1920 even though he wasn't in the Commons and didn't lead the second-largest group. Donald Maclean acted as Leader of the Opposition on his behalf.
  • Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    If people want to dislike foreigners nothing can prevent that. The important thing is to acknowledge and understand the consequences - not to pretend you can dislike foreigners, vote to make it harder for them to come into the UK and pay no economic price.

  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,389
    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    MPs’ authority. The whole point of representative democracy is to filter out unsavoury views, even if they are popular.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    MPs’ authority. The whole point of representative democracy is to filter out unsavoury views, even if they are popular.
    Unless you're the Labour Party, in which case racism is de rigeur.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,580
    When changing rules it is a bad idea to be so obvious as don't be reason being to benefit a particular person or group first, rather than because it is felt to be an improvement.

    Jenkins' comments are just silly, ignoring the purpose of both main parties' leadership processes and presuming betrayal which makes underlines the weakness of her point since she assumes defeat so is complaining about the rules in advance.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    For LOLS, this is why Boris ain't a plausible Prime Minister but might be effective at reviving party morale and profile in opposition:

    https://youtu.be/asas49ZLa98
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    If people want to dislike foreigners nothing can prevent that. The important thing is to acknowledge and understand the consequences - not to pretend you can dislike foreigners, vote to make it harder for them to come into the UK and pay no economic price.

    One of the curious and paradoxical effects of Brexit is to reduce the number of white Christians migrating to the UK, and increasing the number of non EU migrants. In the last year 180 000 net from Non EU countries, mostly from Asia, Africa and Middle East.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:

    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    MPs’ authority. The whole point of representative democracy is to filter out unsavoury views, even if they are popular.
    Unless you're the Labour Party, in which case racism is de rigeur.
    Hyperbole much?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,580
    For what it is worth I am far from convinced Boris cannot convince enough Mps to get him to the final two, or some other leavers, but like Labour moderates she is ignoring the very purpose of the process to screen candidates to ensure, among other things, they have sufficient backing in the parliamentary party, which personally I think is quite sensible- hugely popular though Corbyn is the party has not always been as effective said could because he still lacks support.

    If Jenkins thinks the Mps will not permit Boris, or some suitable candidate representing necessary strands of opinion in the party, through to the final two then the problem is the mps, not the rules, and changing the rules wouldn't fix that .
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Mr Christian,

    "If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority? "

    That's not what is being suggested. They're suggesting democracy should be denied to those whom self-selected people consider xenophobic. Best just to ignore.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,580
    edited August 2018
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Brought up on a previous thread

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/violent-thug-went-rampage-leicester-1936825

    Actually a different link provided but somebody mentioned it in reference to cannabis which I thought was a bit strange as the original link didn't mention cannabis. This one does, but unsurprisingly it turns out it wasn't the cause of this incident but not taking his medication was.



    Our modern version of 'reefer madness' with the newspapers carrying headlines about 'super skunk' is very exciting but just as much based on facts as the reefer madness propaganda was. Look to actual scientists, say government drug advisors that get fired and people like that. Not journalists who want headlines to sell papers or people who can't tell the difference between 'spice' 'legal highs' and marijuana. You may as well be talking about crack cocaine and fizzy drinks for the difference to health (mental and physical) between them.

    Skunk with higher THC levels is simply stronger marijuana, you wouldn't drink a pint of wine like you would a pint of beer but that doesn't make wine some brand new drug in a completely different class from beer, wine is just a slightly different stronger alcohol.

    This is why I do still want marijuana legalised because people incorrectly blaming marijuana for some guy with mental health issues and with all the baggage that holds society and individuals (more often minorities) back because of that is stupid. The only way we are going to move forward is with evidence based policy making not one that pleases right wing newspapers who like scary headlines or people who don't even understand what they are talking about.

    It's all very well saying that correlation doesn't imply causation, but you know what? People who design medical studies know that and correct for it, and once you have made the necessary corrections correlation can give you a pretty big fucking clue. I know (don't ask) a lot of psychiatrists and they all believe the numerous studies which tend to show that cannabis psychosis exists, not in a doctrinaire and gammonish reefer madness kind of way but because is a problem whose consequences they deal with.
    And yet increasing states and countries are legalizing it - do they not do studies in Canada? Not saying what others do is always right, but the anti crowd on this sometimes act like it's insane to contemplate while perfectly non insane places do it, so the anti crowd need to do a better job justifying resistance to it as apocalyptic stories are not convincing to many,not least as so many people know others who do or have taken the stuff.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    ydoethur said:

    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    MPs’ authority. The whole point of representative democracy is to filter out unsavoury views, even if they are popular.
    Unless you're the Labour Party, in which case racism is de rigeur.
    Hyperbole much?
    After the last three months I'm not sure whether you're being ironic or not.

    Maybe I should ask Corbyn for some lessons. After all, I've lived in Britain all my life so I don't quite get this sense of humour apparently.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Doethur, careful. Or your name vill also go on ze list!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Doethur, careful. Or your name vill also go on ze list!

    'Y Doethur' is a title, not a name.

    Like another Doctor, my name is unpronounceable in English.

    Edit - or at least, so I was told when I last went to see the medic.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    I've been there, travelling through the Pyrenees. A beautiful place.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    You don’t even bother arguing the point, you just don’t like what it says about you. You enthusiastically endorsed the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign. And now you profess horror at instances of anti-Semitism in the Labour party. You had a meaningful opportunity to oppose racism and you decided that it wasn’t important to you. So don’t pretend that it matters to you now.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    If people want to dislike foreigners nothing can prevent that. The important thing is to acknowledge and understand the consequences - not to pretend you can dislike foreigners, vote to make it harder for them to come into the UK and pay no economic price.

    Exactly so. One can be appalled by it without wishing to stand in the way of the democratic process.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    David Cameron thought it was irrelevant, because he thought Remain would win heavily regardless. He thought doing so on such terms would only enhance the mandate of his victory, and thus provide him with the ammunition needed to compel his party to rally round him and his EU policy once-and-for-all.

    Purdah, and the wording of the referendum question, certainly aided the Leave campaign compared to where it would have otherwise been - even further behind - but it's hard to argue that those were unfair or bias advantages.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    You don’t even bother arguing the point, you just don’t like what it says about you. You enthusiastically endorsed the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign. And now you profess horror at instances of anti-Semitism in the Labour party. You had a meaningful opportunity to oppose racism and you decided that it wasn’t important to you. So don’t pretend that it matters to you now.
    You are a bile-filled hater.

    Hard to face up?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    kle4 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:



    It's all very well saying that correlation doesn't imply causation, but you know what? People who design medical studies know that and correct for it, and once you have made the necessary corrections correlation can give you a pretty big fucking clue. I know (don't ask) a lot of psychiatrists and they all believe the numerous studies which tend to show that cannabis psychosis exists, not in a doctrinaire and gammonish reefer madness kind of way but because is a problem whose consequences they deal with.

    And yet increasing states and countries are legalizing it - do they not do studies in Canada? Not saying what others do is always right, but the anti crowd on this sometimes act like it's insane to contemplate while perfectly non insane places do it, so the anti crowd need to do a better job justifying resistance to it as apocalyptic stories are not convincing to many,not least as so many people know others who do or have taken the stuff.
    Lots of very bad mistakes get made. Whole countries have gone Communist in the past. As to "do or have taken the stuff", we all know people who are or have been tobacco smokers. Lots of them have survived unscathed. That doesn't make smoking ok. The "apocalyptic stories" tend to be sober and factual court reports of people with an actual diagnosis of cannabis psychosis from a proper psychiatrist doing bad stuff. And if you want some anecdote, I have been smoking the stuff on and off for 40 odd years (mainly off these days) and the effect has gone from feeling a bit woozy as if you'd held your breath for too long, to hours and hours of full-on and highly pleasurable hallucination. Whether this reflects a change in the product or in my brain is of course an open question.
  • IanB2 said:

    I've been there, travelling through the Pyrenees. A beautiful place.

    The Pyrenees generally are magnificent and this is a special place within them. The only valley in the Spanish part of the range where the rivers drain into France. The Garonne (Garona) starts here and they have their own language - Aranese, which is a Gascon dialect.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?

    Dr Doctor? Not really, tbqh. It doesn't seem very grammatical.

    You can of course refer to me as Y Doethur if you like.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not


    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
    The whole thing is a shitshow. Every course from here is downwards. It will be the work of generations to alter that now.
    Except it isn't, is it?

    Unemployment is at a 45 year low, inequality is at a 30-year low, the public spending figures last week were very, very good, wages are now rising faster than inflation, the economy is growing, and we've had a fantastic Summer.

    Basically, the downsides are there's a lot of political drama on both sides of the channel, some are embarrassed by it, and more are worried by what the lurid headlines might mean. But, once it all settles down, and a deal is done, most people will breath a sigh of relief, and carry on with their lives. And be loathe to touch the subject again.

    True, there will be a minority of very angry people (on both sides) who are determined to uproot the settlement in pursuit of absolute victory, and that could very well go on for generations, as it did in Elizabethean and Stuart England over religion, but, just as then, there will be diminishing interest for it over time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: for those who missed it yesterday, behold a multiplicity of tips (bearing in mind I am the world's unluckiest gambler this year):
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/08/belgium-pre-race-2018.html

    Ok, Y Doethur.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?

    I expect them to have weighed very carefully the implications of Leaving through a campaign won by xenophobic lies and to have taken every opportunity to challenge those xenophobic lies during the campaign when it mattered. Sarah Wollaston changed her vote because of the conduct of the Leave campaign (naturally she is now a Leave hate figure). As far as I’m aware, otherwise, Leavers were in the most part hugely enthusiastic about the lies told and at best silent on the subject. None have yet begun to come to terms with how the campaign has trapped the country in dismal parameters.

    The contrast with Labour supporters wrestling with what they do in the face of anti-Semitism couldn’t be starker.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    You don’t even bother arguing the point, you just don’t like what it says about you. You enthusiastically endorsed the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign. And now you profess horror at instances of anti-Semitism in the Labour party. You had a meaningful opportunity to oppose racism and you decided that it wasn’t important to you. So don’t pretend that it matters to you now.
    When you aren't doing this xenophobia shtick, you are bragging away about your enthusiastic large-scale sponsorship of the most Jew-hating, muslim-hating, immigrant-hating, asylum-seeker-hating, gay-hating regime anywhere in the world, because this is acceptable collateral damage to the really, really interesting and impressive lifestyle statement you think you are making. Do they not have mirrors where you come from?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?

    Simples - short term virtue signalling about a poster based on the PMs words should trump all other factors, logic and your own beliefs about democracy.

    The Meeks defeat huff (psychosis) is entering Ted Heath territory.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not


    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
    The whole thing is a shitshow. Every course from here is downwards. It will be the work of generations to alter that now.
    Except it isn't, is it?

    Unemployment is at a 45 year low, inequality is at a 30-year low, the public spending figures last week were very, very good, wages are now rising faster than inflation, the economy is growing, and we've had a fantastic Summer.

    Basically, the downsides are there's a lot of political drama on both sides of the channel, some are embarrassed by it, and more are worried by what the lurid headlines might mean. But, once it all settles down, and a deal is done, most people will breath a sigh of relief, and carry on with their lives. And be loathe to touch the subject again.

    True, there will be a minority of very angry people (on both sides) who are determined to uproot the settlement in pursuit of absolute victory, and that could very well go on for generations, as it did in Elizabethean and Stuart England over religion, but, just as then, there will be diminishing interest for it over time.
    I hope it doesn’t take as long to diminish as the dispute over religion did. Look at the DUP!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    The UK is one of the least xenophobic countries in the Western world.

    I hear a lot about "xenophobia", sometimes with a few tenuous anecdotes, but precious little evidence for it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340


    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.

    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not


    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
    The whole thing is a shitshow. Every course from here is downwards. It will be the work of generations to alter that now.
    Except it isn't, is it?

    Unemployment is at a 45 year low, inequality is at a 30-year low, the public spending figures last week were very, very good, wages are now rising faster than inflation, the economy is growing, and we've had a fantastic Summer.

    Basically, the downsides are there's a lot of political drama on both sides of the channel, some are embarrassed by it, and more are worried by what the lurid headlines might mean. But, once it all settles down, and a deal is done, most people will breath a sigh of relief, and carry on with their lives. And be loathe to touch the subject again.

    True, there will be a minority of very angry people (on both sides) who are determined to uproot the settlement in pursuit of absolute victory, and that could very well go on for generations, as it did in Elizabethean and Stuart England over religion, but, just as then, there will be diminishing interest for it over time.
    If the best you can do in your list of positives is celebrate that wages are rising 0.1% higher than inflation and the new normal anaemic growth, you’re struggling. The idea that this is all going to settle down when a deal that leaves Britain with the worst of all worlds is struck is fanciful. Britain is in long term decline because a group of reactionary nationalists decided that it was worth pandering to racism in order to indulge their hatred of the EU.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,692

    Changing the rules because you don’t like the outcome? Sounds like REMAIN to me!

    It hasn't happened yet so it's changing the rules because you don't like the outcome you'd get under them, as the Leave side did successfully before the EU Referendum, and David Cameron didn't, because he was a total and utter useless doofus.
    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.
    Wait. Remain lost??
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    edited August 2018



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    One of the reasons I voted Remain! A European susperstate, especially a West European one, would be a great improvement on what we have had for the past 1000 or so years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    The UK is one of the least xenophobic countries in the Western world.

    I hear a lot about "xenophobia", sometimes with a few tenuous anecdotes, but precious little evidence for it.
    You should have changed your entire vote in a once in a generation referendum because of a poster about Turkey. Shame on you for not being shallow enough to do so. Or something
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Ishmael_Z said:



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    You don’t even bother arguing the point, you just don’t like what it says about you. You enthusiastically endorsed the xenophobic lies of the Leave campaign. And now you profess horror at instances of anti-Semitism in the Labour party. You had a meaningful opportunity to oppose racism and you decided that it wasn’t important to you. So don’t pretend that it matters to you now.
    When you aren't doing this xenophobia shtick, you are bragging away about your enthusiastic large-scale sponsorship of the most Jew-hating, muslim-hating, immigrant-hating, asylum-seeker-hating, gay-hating regime anywhere in the world, because this is acceptable collateral damage to the really, really interesting and impressive lifestyle statement you think you are making. Do they not have mirrors where you come from?
    Creep of the year returns with an exceptionally weird thesis, even by his own hairy standards.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Meeks, there were multiple Leave campaigns. Does a man have to agree with all of them to legitimately vote to leave?

    And did you agree with all the Remain campaigns and campaigners? What of the falsehood that Clegg told about the EU Army, which has come to pass? Or the punishment Budget and collapse of Western Civilisation?

    The referendum was about remaining in the EU or leaving it. I voted on that basis, as did almost everyone. I didn't vote based on which campaign had the politicians I thought would be nicest at a dinner party, or who knew their way around London art galleries. The only things the campaigns persuaded me of was that both were utterly dreadful.

    Claiming everyone who voted to leave is a xenophobe is as inaccurate and unhelpful as claiming everyone who voted to remain is a traitor.

    In a democracy, people get to have opinions which aren't yours without automatically becoming evil.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    This seems to be impossible to comprehend for the craven Europhiles.

    Point is, they lost. They lost the argument, they lost the vote, they lost their blue blanket. And that can only be because their opponents were ALL SO HORRID.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Royale, agree entirely with the salami-slicing approach of the EU. That was a significant concern for me as well.
  • Look, its fairly simple:
    1. Brexit was the English revolution. Fed up with their lot being shit AND being told how marvellous things are England decided to vote for the other option on offer.
    2. Things being as shit as they are the alternative can't be any worse (yes, I know it can and will be the way it's going) so get on with it already
    3. The things that are shit are economic. Shit jobs, shit wages, shit conditions, shit towns. The fault lies with everyone who isn't them whether that be the elite, bankers, the EU Commissioners, foreign types or whoever - its not so much racism as desperation
    4. Political hacks aren't stupid (yes, I know we are really). They can see the mood shifting towards "everything is shit". Labour activists have thought things are shit for their people for years so voted loony. Tory activists have thought things could be better if it was a little more shit for other people so want to vote loony.

    Once you get the electorate agitated things tend to happen. The punters want change and they won't stop until they are satisfied (which will be never unless things significantly change) hence the cross political unholy alliance of Shire Tories and ShitTown Labour all agitating for the same thing. As long as Labour voters keep shouting about how shit things are Jeremy will be leader. As long as Tory voters keep shouting how shit things will get without FREEDOM Boris will be leader apparent.

    Just get on with it Tories. Brexit screws you anyway, may as well get Boris over with now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    One of the reasons I voted Remain! A European susperstate, especially a West European one, would be a great improvement on what we have had for the past 1000 or so years.
    Perhaps you'd like the return of slavery too with your Roman Empire?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?

    I expect them to have weighed very carefully the implications of Leaving through a campaign won by xenophobic lies and to have taken every opportunity to challenge those xenophobic lies during the campaign when it mattered. Sarah Wollaston changed her vote because of the conduct of the Leave campaign (naturally she is now a Leave hate figure). As far as I’m aware, otherwise, Leavers were in the most part hugely enthusiastic about the lies told and at best silent on the subject. None have yet begun to come to terms with how the campaign has trapped the country in dismal parameters.

    The contrast with Labour supporters wrestling with what they do in the face of anti-Semitism couldn’t be starker.
    That isn't true. For example, and as I believe I said so on here at the time, I wrote to the Leave campaign setting out both my ideas for and objections to what it was doing, and I refused to either order or deliver the Turkey leaflets. I instead confined myself to fighting with just the "five positive reasons" leaflet, a bit of doorknocking and public stalls, and making my own arguments via my blog too.

    What I wasn't prepared to do, is to publicly denounce the Leave campaign only a few weeks out from the biggest vote in my lifetime, when it was already subject to infighting between various factions, yet alone vote Remain as a consequence.

    I suspect that probably makes me as guilty-as-hell in your eyes, but I have no regrets about what I did: I sleep well at night, I can look myself in the mirror, and I'm fully comfortable I acted with integrity. At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    One of the reasons I voted Remain! A European susperstate, especially a West European one, would be a great improvement on what we have had for the past 1000 or so years.
    Um. Okkk.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Meeks, there were multiple Leave campaigns. Does a man have to agree with all of them to legitimately vote to leave?

    Voting Leave would have consequences. Those consequences were largely set by the official campaign. You could vote Leave to save the dolphin but it’s disingenuous to claim that a Leave vote would have been interpreted accordingly. The parameters were set by the main campaigns.

    Claiming everyone who voted to leave is a xenophobe is as inaccurate and unhelpful as claiming everyone who voted to remain is a traitor.

    In a democracy, people get to have opinions which aren't yours without automatically becoming evil.

    I have never made any such claim. I do claim that Leave advocates wilfully whipped up xenophobia to win and still are not confronting the consequences of their choice.

    No one is evil as such: I subscribe firmly to the Christian idea of hating the sin not the sinner. But that also requires a recognition of the sin and acting accordingly. That process has not begun.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872


    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.

    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not


    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
    The whole thing is a shitshow. Every course from here is downwards. It will be the work of generations to alter that now.
    True, there will be a minority of very angry people (on both sides) who are determined to uproot the settlement in pursuit of absolute victory, and that could very well go on for generations, as it did in Elizabethean and Stuart England over religion, but, just as then, there will be diminishing interest for it over time.
    If the best you can do in your list of positives is celebrate that wages are rising 0.1% higher than inflation and the new normal anaemic growth, you’re struggling. The idea that this is all going to settle down when a deal that leaves Britain with the worst of all worlds is struck is fanciful. Britain is in long term decline because a group of reactionary nationalists decided that it was worth pandering to racism in order to indulge their hatred of the EU.
    Not really. I'm contesting your assertion of shitshow and absolute decline, which is 'inevitable for generations'.

    It's pure hyberbole, and well you know it. The rest of your post just reads like a late night A C Grayling rant.

    Sorry.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    One of the reasons I voted Remain! A European susperstate, especially a West European one, would be a great improvement on what we have had for the past 1000 or so years.
    Perhaps you'd like the return of slavery too with your Roman Empire?
    No wonder the Tories are anti-Europe. It suits their sneering mindset.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?

    I expect them to have weighed very carefully the implications of Leaving through a campaign won by xenophobic lies and to have taken every opportunity to challenge those xenophobic lies during the campaign when it mattered. Sarah Wollaston changed her vote because of the conduct of the Leave campaign (naturally she is now a Leave hate figure). As far as I’m aware, otherwise, Leavers were in the most part hugely enthusiastic about the lies told and at best silent on the subject. None have yet begun to come to terms with how the campaign has trapped the country in dismal parameters.

    The contrast with Labour supporters wrestling with what they do in the face of anti-Semitism couldn’t be starker.
    That isn't true. For example, and as I believe I said so on here at the time, I wrote to the Leave campaign setting out both my ideas for and objections to what it was doing, and I refused to either order or deliver the Turkey leaflets. I instead confined myself to fighting with just the "five positive reasons" leaflet, a bit of doorknocking and public stalls, and making my own arguments via my blog too.

    What I wasn't prepared to do, is to publicly denounce the Leave campaign only a few weeks out from the biggest vote in my lifetime, when it was already subject to infighting between various factions, yet alone vote Remain as a consequence.

    I suspect that probably makes me as guilty-as-hell in your eyes, but I have no regrets about what I did: I sleep well at night, I can look myself in the mirror, and I'm fully comfortable I acted with integrity. At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
    You should have spoken out, just as Labour supporters now feel compelled to speak out. As you yourself said, voting Leave was more important to you than confronting xenophobia.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    One of the reasons I voted Remain! A European susperstate, especially a West European one, would be a great improvement on what we have had for the past 1000 or so years.
    Perhaps you'd like the return of slavery too with your Roman Empire?
    No wonder the Tories are anti-Europe. It suits their sneering mindset.
    If you really do want a European superstate, then voting Remain absolutely made sense.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Meeks, I'm not going to feel guilty for voting based on the national interest. If you want an apology, seek one from the grinning oaf Brown who reneged upon a manifesto pledge and signed us up to Lisbon without a referendum.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    If remain had one the referendum very narrowly on the back of dubious economic claims and zero positive message for why we should be in the EU, would they have had to come to terms with the 'reasons' why they won and accepted demands for a further referendum within a couple of years?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    Mr. Royale, agree entirely with the salami-slicing approach of the EU. That was a significant concern for me as well.

    The EU left British voters, not the other way round.

    So far, they've made precisely zero effort to understand this, or even begin to admit that there's something they have a duty to try and understand, preferring instead to blame British tabloids, and the right wing of the Conservative Party, or something.

    "It's not me, it's you."
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340


    The most depressing thing about the Shipman book on Brexit is discovering that even afterwards, the Remain campaigners still do not realise how and why they lost.

    They get no further than “xenophobic lies” then retreat into their intellectual and moral superiority.
    Leavers have not begun to address the consequences of having won through xenophobic lies.
    You mean like declining voter concern about immigration? To be welcomed surely?
    As usual, missing the point comprehensively.
    As usual, ignoring the data completely...
    Not


    It’s being so cheerful that keeps you going?
    The whole thing is a shitshow. Every course from here is downwards. It will be the work of generations to alter that now.
    True, there will be a minority of very angry people (on both sides) who are determined to uproot the settlement in pursuit of absolute victory, and that could very well go on for generations, as it did in Elizabethean and Stuart England over religion, but, just as then, there will be diminishing interest for it over time.
    If the best you can do in your list of positives is celebrate that wages are rising 0.1% higher than inflation and the new normal anaemic growth, you’re struggling. The idea that this is all going to settle down when a deal that leaves Britain with the worst of all worlds is struck is fanciful. Britain is in long term decline because a group of reactionary nationalists decided that it was worth pandering to racism in order to indulge their hatred of the EU.
    Not really. I'm contesting your assertion of shitshow and absolute decline, which is 'inevitable for generations'.

    It's pure hyberbole, and well you know it. The rest of your post just reads like a late night A C Grayling rant.

    Sorry.
    Britain is obviously a worse place than it was three years ago and is getting worse, more divided, more unhappy, more extreme politics, lower long term growth, more isolated. There is no light on the horizon and none can be expected for years. But there we are.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207



    Not at all. Words are cheap....

    And you have utterly debased "xenophobic".
    I appreciate that you like to frighten other people with visions of hordes of swarthy-skinned Muslims being poised to come to Britain when it suits your political purposes, but that's xenophobia.
    My vote - and the vote of many millions of other Leave voters - was to do with an unending encroachment on democracy by a unelected elite - who represented poor value for money, money that it was felt could be better spent.

    That you ascribe your own warped notions to how I came to my decision in the ballot box clearly demonstrates that you appreciate fuck all.
    I had no confidence the EU wouldn't continue, by hook or crook, to undermine the concept of the nation state, and use the European Treaties to progressively develop a body jurisprudence that would increasingly undermine our common law system. And, I could see no natural end or limit to it, as "ever closer union" implied.

    It's own behaviour - its tin-eared, dogmatic (and even arrogant) pursuit of this - led to my vote. Nothing else.
    One of the reasons I voted Remain! A European susperstate, especially a West European one, would be a great improvement on what we have had for the past 1000 or so years.
    Perhaps you'd like the return of slavery too with your Roman Empire?
    No wonder the Tories are anti-Europe. It suits their sneering mindset.
    A European super-state is a very small niche in UK politics. Those who espouse it might be happy taking instruction from Luxembourg's finest. But you can expect to be mocked for it.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Mr. Meeks, in your view how should someone who believed it was definitely in the UK's interest to leave the EU and who absolutely opposed (and opposes) racism have voted in the referendum?

    Mr. Doethur, do you prefer to be known as Dr. Doethur?

    I expect them to have weighed very carefully the implications of Leaving through a campaign won by xenophobic lies and to have taken every opportunity to challenge those xenophobic lies during the campaign when it mattered. Sarah Wollaston changed her vote because of the conduct of the Leave campaign (naturally she is now a Leave hate figure). As far as I’m aware, otherwise, Leavers were in the most part hugely enthusiastic about the lies told and at best silent on the subject. None have yet begun to come to terms with how the campaign has trapped the country in dismal parameters.

    The contrast with Labour supporters wrestling with what they do in the face of anti-Semitism couldn’t be starker.
    That isn't true. For example, and as I believe I said so on here at the time, I wrote to the Leave campaign setting out both my ideas for and objections to what it was doing, and I refused to either order or deliver the Turkey leaflets. I instead confined myself to fighting with just the "five positive reasons" leaflet, a bit of doorknocking and public stalls, and making my own arguments via my blog too.

    What I wasn't prepared to do, is to publicly denounce the Leave campaign only a few weeks out from the biggest vote in my lifetime, when it was already subject to infighting between various factions, yet alone vote Remain as a consequence.

    I suspect that probably makes me as guilty-as-hell in your eyes, but I have no regrets about what I did: I sleep well at night, I can look myself in the mirror, and I'm fully comfortable I acted with integrity. At the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
    You should have spoken out, just as Labour supporters now feel compelled to speak out. As you yourself said, voting Leave was more important to you than confronting xenophobia.
    People voted Leave because they didn't want to be ruled by foreigners - that is NOT the same as xenophobia. Please stop your bile-filled hateful rant, to quote the words of another PB poster. It is unproductive and undignified. Brexit will occur, even if it is only BINO.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Mr Meeks,

    You are now verging on virtue-signalling. I've voted for three different parties at General Elections (Labour, LD, and UKIP) and each has had its share of obnoxious candidates. None has been perfect. As always, I vote for the least worst. It doesn't mean I support every scintilla of their manifesto or advertising.

    I believe that everyone is a little xenophobic - including them furriners. Every religious person is a sinner, but that doesn't make very atheist a saint.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,678
    Christian said:

    If a population prefers to be xenophobic, should their democratic preference be denied? On what authority?

    That is an interesting question. Doesn't a democracy need to take into account the interests of the whole. I guess it depends upon which definition you go by. What if 51% decide to exterminate the 49%. Is that democracy?
This discussion has been closed.