Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The end of an era. Sir Paul Dacre is said to have edited his l

SystemSystem Posts: 12,173
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The end of an era. Sir Paul Dacre is said to have edited his last Daily Mail

The biggest political development over the weekend, I’d suggest, was the report in the Observer about the replacement of Paul Dacre as Daily Mail editor with the Geordie Gregg, of the Mail on Sunday, who has taken a totally different view of the referendum outcome.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Does the Mail really have so much influence anymore ?

    At the margin, perhaps .
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Nigelb said:

    Does the Mail really have so much influence anymore ?

    At the margin, perhaps .

    It influences the influencers
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Most amused to see the OP claims that "achieving the least damaging form of Brexit appears to chime with that which is being followed by TMay.".

    May's approach is the most damaging form of Brexit imaginable. None of the freedoms of Brexit with pretty much all of the downsides of EU membership. An outcome in which the people who won the referendum feel betrayed. The decline of the effectiveness of the UK Civil Service seems to be somehow tied into this notion that the best solution to every problem is a messy compromise that achieves nothing and satisfies nobody.

    Maybe that is why people voted against the Establishment.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited August 2018
    I suspect this:

    The changeover could also impact on whether there’s a CON leadership challenge and the position of the Etonian hard line Brexiter duo of Moggsy and BoJo. It is hard to see them getting the backing from Greig that you’d expect Dacre to have given?

    Will have the greatest impact. It won’t be so much what Grieg will say, but what he won’t say....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    Most amused to see the OP claims that "achieving the least damaging form of Brexit appears to chime with that which is being followed by TMay.".

    May's approach is the most damaging form of Brexit imaginable. None of the freedoms of Brexit with pretty much all of the downsides of EU membership. An outcome in which the people who won the referendum feel betrayed. The decline of the effectiveness of the UK Civil Service seems to be somehow tied into this notion that the best solution to every problem is a messy compromise that achieves nothing and satisfies nobody.

    Maybe that is why people voted against the Establishment.

    "May's approach is the most damaging form of Brexit imaginable."

    You apparently have a very poor imagination.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Most amused to see the OP claims that "achieving the least damaging form of Brexit appears to chime with that which is being followed by TMay.".

    May's approach is the most damaging form of Brexit imaginable. None of the freedoms of Brexit with pretty much all of the downsides of EU membership. An outcome in which the people who won the referendum feel betrayed. The decline of the effectiveness of the UK Civil Service seems to be somehow tied into this notion that the best solution to every problem is a messy compromise that achieves nothing and satisfies nobody.

    Maybe that is why people voted against the Establishment.

    +1
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    edited August 2018

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    I think Alistair is doing a bit of early morning self-indulgence exercise here :-D .

    The only Remain supporting tabloid, which is the Mirror, has gone down by 40%+ in the same period.

    The Star is only down by 20%, so a more powerful suggestion might be for the printed Mail to import the Sidebar of Imagined Celebrity from the website.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation


  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Isn’t that edited separately?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Nigelb said:

    Does the Mail really have so much influence anymore ?

    At the margin, perhaps .

    If you are a struggling starlet, they can help you get your nipple maximum exposure
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    edited August 2018

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Isn’t that edited separately?
    Certainly it has a distinctly different style.

    Possibly useful comment from Peter Preston, about who was responsible for Katie Hopkins and Gina Miller sending legal letters to the wrong place.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jul/02/daily-mail-guardian-hopkins-mail-online-dacre-row
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    MattW said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    I think Alistair is doing a bit of early morning self-indulgence exercise here :-D .

    The only Remain supporting tabloid, which is the Mirror, has gone down by 40%+ in the same period.

    The Star is only down by 20%, so a more powerful suggestion might be for the printed Mail to import the Sidebar of Imagined Celebrity from the website.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation


    It's not just the editorial line, the Mail has Tom Utley, Richard Littlejohn, AN Wilson and Dominic Lawson, and other pro-Brexit opinion writers that attract and reinforce the line.

    I doubt he will ditch all those.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    The Mail is the house paper for the easily outraged. Telling them "there there, Chequers Brexit will be fine..." is unlikely to end well for the Mail readership numbers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Brexit's off the front page of Grieg's first edition:

    https://twitter.com/sw1a0aa/status/1028757185503944704

    And online its wall to wall Meghan, with the Boris Burka row the first political story.....well down:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    I'm surprised their online does so well - the website looks really cluttered to me.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    The Mail is the house paper for the easily outraged. Telling them "there there, Chequers Brexit will be fine..." is unlikely to end well for the Mail readership numbers.

    It doesn't have to. It just needs to give other stories more prominence.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Good morning, everyone.

    Not sure 'powerful' is the word I'd use for the judge article. Still amazed at the openly homosexual line.

    In unrelated news, the Muslim Council of Britain want the book thrown at Boris:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45165840

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The Mail is the house paper for the easily outraged. Telling them "there there, Chequers Brexit will be fine..." is unlikely to end well for the Mail readership numbers.

    It doesn't have to. It just needs to give other stories more prominence.
    Which is what he appears to be doing - Corbyn honouring terrorists on the front page and online wall to wall celebrity mush. 'Meghan' appears 19 times,'Boris' 13 times and 'Brexit' four times.....(Brandon Lewis pairing row, Heathrow queues, the Tesco 12% price increase story and a Love Island 'gaffe').
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    Yes, it does seem that a right wing populist regime "taking back control" is not going well economically. What lessons could we learn?

    A good opinion piece here on the subject:

    https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1027107848273227776?s=19
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    MattW said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    I think Alistair is doing a bit of early morning self-indulgence exercise here :-D .

    The only Remain supporting tabloid, which is the Mirror, has gone down by 40%+ in the same period.

    The Star is only down by 20%, so a more powerful suggestion might be for the printed Mail to import the Sidebar of Imagined Celebrity from the website.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation


    It's not just the editorial line, the Mail has Tom Utley, Richard Littlejohn, AN Wilson and Dominic Lawson, and other pro-Brexit opinion writers that attract and reinforce the line.

    I doubt he will ditch all those.
    They're columnists. Brexit is becoming the status quo, and columnists don't attract readers by continually saluting the status quo. Instead, they fight it. So expect those columnists to start questioning Brexit - or whatever the government comes up with.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    A damage limited Brexit is sensible in the circumstances but it requires people to accept they voted Leave to damage the country. Which they are not willing to do, unsurprisingly. Hence the predictable mess we are in, when the only other Brexit outcome is scorched earth.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    Good morning, everyone.

    Not sure 'powerful' is the word I'd use for the judge article. Still amazed at the openly homosexual line.

    In unrelated news, the Muslim Council of Britain want the book thrown at Boris:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45165840

    This Muslim Council of Britain?

    "Out of the 3,000 people surveyed, only 20% expressed they see themselves as being represented by those organisations who claim to speak for their communities, and The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) was identified by just 9% of those who preferred to engage via Muslim organisations. This equates to only 1.9% of British Muslims surveyed saying that the MCB represents them."

    https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/british-muslims-have-rejected-muslim-council-britain-its-time-wider-society-did-same-1594628
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Mark, quite. I recall Javid also dismissing the MCB for reasons I have forgotten, but it was quite recent.
  • Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
    Massively less than two years ago. I doubt there is more than €20bn exposure across the entire sector. (And for the record, my money would be on the Austrian banks to be most exposed with Spain and Italy being de minims)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    The interests of employers and their workers do not necessarily always align.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    MattW said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    I think Alistair is doing a bit of early morning self-indulgence exercise here :-D .

    The only Remain supporting tabloid, which is the Mirror, has gone down by 40%+ in the same period.

    The Star is only down by 20%, so a more powerful suggestion might be for the printed Mail to import the Sidebar of Imagined Celebrity from the website.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation


    It's not just the editorial line, the Mail has Tom Utley, Richard Littlejohn, AN Wilson and Dominic Lawson, and other pro-Brexit opinion writers that attract and reinforce the line.

    I doubt he will ditch all those.
    They're columnists. Brexit is becoming the status quo, and columnists don't attract readers by continually saluting the status quo. Instead, they fight it. So expect those columnists to start questioning Brexit - or whatever the government comes up with.
    You haven’t read any of those columnists copy, have you?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    The Mail is the house paper for the easily outraged. Telling them "there there, Chequers Brexit will be fine..." is unlikely to end well for the Mail readership numbers.

    That certainly won’t change.

    The Mail plays on the fears and concerns of the provincial middle middle classes, and has done for decades, whilst also shamelessly riding both horses of human hypocrisy at the same time (sexual conservatism, and the sidebar of shame) and its a very effective business model.

    I wouldn’t expect Gregg (a businessman) to change much except work out how to make that even more effective.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the Mail really have so much influence anymore ?

    At the margin, perhaps .

    If you are a struggling starlet, they can help you get your nipple maximum exposure
    Good to know. Sadly, I’m not.

  • The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    The interests of employers and their workers do not necessarily always align.
    Agreed. Indeed it's almost as if the working-class have a better idea of their own economic interest than the middle-class who keep telling them they voted the wrong way.

    It's also why another referendum would be won by Leave.2
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Daily Fail=Ghastly , nasty, intolerant rag, designed to make people angry. UGH.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Daily Fail=Ghastly , nasty, intolerant rag, designed to make people angry. UGH.

    Well said. Think a little less, hate a little more.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    It’s a very unique market, but commuters will read papers if they’re free and stacked at stations, morning and evening. What they tend not to do is queue to buy one at WHSmith.

    If he wants daily circulation numbers up he’s going to need to do something innovative.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    From an economics perspective, the question is where UK firms' profit margins are. If they are high, then this is a natural and positive rebalancing between capital and labour, with the share of GDP taken by wages rising at the expense of profit.

    On the other hand, if the share taken by profit is at or below normal levels, then firms will react to higher wage costs by reducing investment in the UK - which negatively affects the long-term growth prospects for the economy.

    I don't know the answer - although I can probably find it out :) - but it's important to recognise it cuts both ways.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Royale, 'very' unique?

    Cooler. Six weeks.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    Certainly it seems to mean there is no limit to the amount of lucrative locum work for sturdy British yeomen like my good self. Sadly the government has delivered me a 2% real terms pay cut this year, so hard to resist going the agency locum route.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    From an economics perspective, the question is where UK firms' profit margins are. If they are high, then this is a natural and positive rebalancing between capital and labour, with the share of GDP taken by wages rising at the expense of profit.

    On the other hand, if the share taken by profit is at or below normal levels, then firms will react to higher wage costs by reducing investment in the UK - which negatively affects the long-term growth prospects for the economy.

    I don't know the answer - although I can probably find it out :) - but it's important to recognise it cuts both ways.
    Here's the US data: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Pik

    That should terrify anyone invested in US stocks: corporate profits average between 4% and 8% of GDP over the last 70-odd years, and are now 10%.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    It’s a very unique market, but commuters will read papers if they’re free and stacked at stations, morning and evening. What they tend not to do is queue to buy one at WHSmith.

    If he wants daily circulation numbers up he’s going to need to do something innovative.
    WHSmith is increasingly forlorn and empty of customers. Is it the next high st casualty? I think only the airport and large railway stations look profitable.
  • rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    From an economics perspective, the question is where UK firms' profit margins are. If they are high, then this is a natural and positive rebalancing between capital and labour, with the share of GDP taken by wages rising at the expense of profit.

    On the other hand, if the share taken by profit is at or below normal levels, then firms will react to higher wage costs by reducing investment in the UK - which negatively affects the long-term growth prospects for the economy.

    I don't know the answer - although I can probably find it out :) - but it's important to recognise it cuts both ways.
    Would be very interested if you did find out. Would make an interesting edition of your excellent youtube series.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
    Massively less than two years ago. I doubt there is more than €20bn exposure across the entire sector. (And for the record, my money would be on the Austrian banks to be most exposed with Spain and Italy being de minims)
    The ECB appears less sanguine:

    https://www.ft.com/content/51311230-9be7-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

    The eurozone’s chief financial watchdog has become concerned about the exposure of some of the currency area’s biggest lenders to Turkey — chiefly BBVA, UniCredit and BNP Paribas — in light of the lira’s dramatic fall....

    It does not yet view the situation as critical. But it sees Spain’s BBVA, Italy’s UniCredit and France’s BNP Paribas, which all have significant operations in Turkey, as particularly exposed, according to two people familiar with the matter.

    The ECB is concerned about the risk that Turkish borrowers might not be hedged against the lira’s weakness and begin to default on foreign currency loans, which make up about 40 per cent of the Turkish banking sector’s assets.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    rkrkrk said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    I'm surprised their online does so well - the website looks really cluttered to me.

    The app is very user-friendly. Probably the best online presentation you can get.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Daily Fail=Ghastly , nasty, intolerant rag, designed to make people angry. UGH.

    Yep. One of the most malign influences on British life; good riddance to its former editor.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    The_Mule_ said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    The interests of employers and their workers do not necessarily always align.
    Agreed. Indeed it's almost as if the working-class have a better idea of their own economic interest than the middle-class who keep telling them they voted the wrong way.

    It's also why another referendum would be won by Leave.2
    They’ll need extra wages to cope with extra food and fuel costs, of course!
  • Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    I cancelled my daily mail daily delivery and went on line at £9.99 per month.

    It is the paper edition but available on line from 11.00pm daily including the sunday mail and it is good to see that the editorial between the daily and sunday mail will become more nuanced and not contradictory.

    My wife particularly likes the puzzles

    It is not to be confused with mail on line which is not the actual newspaper

    I am very pleased if it supports a less aggressive hard Brexit
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    MattW said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Isn’t that edited separately?
    Certainly it has a distinctly different style.

    Possibly useful comment from Peter Preston, about who was responsible for Katie Hopkins and Gina Miller sending legal letters to the wrong place.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jul/02/daily-mail-guardian-hopkins-mail-online-dacre-row
    It also raises an interesting point regarding this thread header - how much power does Geordie Greig have over the online content of (newly poached from Fox News Digital) Noah Kotch, as chief editor for its websites? Especially as the previous incumbent of Noah's role, Martin Clarke, has moved to be publisher of ALL Mail titles, online and paper....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    Soon the entire Telegraph will consist of a Matt cartoon and a Boris column. I'll cost 5 quid.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    Yes, it does seem that a right wing populist regime "taking back control" is not going well economically. What lessons could we learn?

    A good opinion piece here on the subject:

    https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1027107848273227776?s=19

    Good article. Its why I suspect Mrs May will want to go on & on....

    And on Brexit:

    Downing Street believes that most Brexit issues can be fudged; money and borders cannot.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
    Massively less than two years ago. I doubt there is more than €20bn exposure across the entire sector. (And for the record, my money would be on the Austrian banks to be most exposed with Spain and Italy being de minims)
    The ECB appears less sanguine:

    https://www.ft.com/content/51311230-9be7-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

    The eurozone’s chief financial watchdog has become concerned about the exposure of some of the currency area’s biggest lenders to Turkey — chiefly BBVA, UniCredit and BNP Paribas — in light of the lira’s dramatic fall....

    It does not yet view the situation as critical. But it sees Spain’s BBVA, Italy’s UniCredit and France’s BNP Paribas, which all have significant operations in Turkey, as particularly exposed, according to two people familiar with the matter.

    The ECB is concerned about the risk that Turkish borrowers might not be hedged against the lira’s weakness and begin to default on foreign currency loans, which make up about 40 per cent of the Turkish banking sector’s assets.

    Unusual for the British banks not to be involved in a lending clusterf*ck....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    It’s a double gamble, on the life expectancy of the newspaper and of the reader.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    It’s a very unique market, but commuters will read papers if they’re free and stacked at stations, morning and evening. What they tend not to do is queue to buy one at WHSmith.

    If he wants daily circulation numbers up he’s going to need to do something innovative.
    Much of the time, commuters can no longer buy papers. In a vicious circle, because fewer commuters were buying papers, many newsagents have now either closed or put back their opening hours.

    Commuters now read the free papers, or entertain themselves using phones. On the longer rail commutes, you see a lot of laptop users as well (not so easy when you are strap-hanging on the tube!). Of course, these days a lot of the phone users could actually be dealing with work emails rather than playing Candy Crush.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    Soon the entire Telegraph will consist of a Matt cartoon and a Boris column. I'll cost 5 quid.
    And it will only be worth buying for one of them....

    https://twitter.com/TomDavidson09/status/971789350609522689
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
    Massively less than two years ago. I doubt there is more than €20bn exposure across the entire sector. (And for the record, my money would be on the Austrian banks to be most exposed with Spain and Italy being de minims)
    As if they didn't have enough risk on their books already from Hungarians with Euro-denominated loans
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
    Massively less than two years ago. I doubt there is more than €20bn exposure across the entire sector. (And for the record, my money would be on the Austrian banks to be most exposed with Spain and Italy being de minims)
    The ECB appears less sanguine:

    https://www.ft.com/content/51311230-9be7-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

    The eurozone’s chief financial watchdog has become concerned about the exposure of some of the currency area’s biggest lenders to Turkey — chiefly BBVA, UniCredit and BNP Paribas — in light of the lira’s dramatic fall....

    It does not yet view the situation as critical. But it sees Spain’s BBVA, Italy’s UniCredit and France’s BNP Paribas, which all have significant operations in Turkey, as particularly exposed, according to two people familiar with the matter.

    The ECB is concerned about the risk that Turkish borrowers might not be hedged against the lira’s weakness and begin to default on foreign currency loans, which make up about 40 per cent of the Turkish banking sector’s assets.

    Unusual for the British banks not to be involved in a lending clusterf*ck....
    But it would be typical for British banks to be involved via derivatives. We'll see.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Turkey, the canary in the coal mine?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/11/business/turkey-lira-crisis.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    Banks borrowing in dollars to lend in Lira is very reminiscent of the Asian crash of 97.

    Amusingly, Erdoğan told most of the foreign banks to *uck off following thy attempted coup a few years ago. It means that there are far few foreigners with an economic interest in his survival.
    But Spanish, French and Italian banks with exposure to Turkish ones.....
    Massively less than two years ago. I doubt there is more than €20bn exposure across the entire sector. (And for the record, my money would be on the Austrian banks to be most exposed with Spain and Italy being de minims)
    The ECB appears less sanguine:

    https://www.ft.com/content/51311230-9be7-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

    The eurozone’s chief financial watchdog has become concerned about the exposure of some of the currency area’s biggest lenders to Turkey — chiefly BBVA, UniCredit and BNP Paribas — in light of the lira’s dramatic fall....

    It does not yet view the situation as critical. But it sees Spain’s BBVA, Italy’s UniCredit and France’s BNP Paribas, which all have significant operations in Turkey, as particularly exposed, according to two people familiar with the matter.

    The ECB is concerned about the risk that Turkish borrowers might not be hedged against the lira’s weakness and begin to default on foreign currency loans, which make up about 40 per cent of the Turkish banking sector’s assets.

    Like a lot of analysis, it fails to mention the difference between corporate bonds, that are typically unhedged and make up the bulk of exposure, and bank loans, which have been dramatically cut back.

    If there is exposure I am unaware of, it will be banks' holdings of Turkish firms Euro and USD denominated bonds. (Unicredit has a sizeable capital markets business there, as it owns the former Hypovereinsbank.)

    Turkish Lira denominate debt held by local subsidiaries is mostly not a problem, because the entities are locally funded.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    "The Mail is the house paper for the easily outraged." Indeed, and they do it better than the others. Although the Boris speech outraged the other end of the spectrum.

    Step forward the Guardian, the newspaper for taking offence on behalf of others, and also the easily offended.

    "Nuns look like penguins." Yawn.
    !Muslims look like letterboxes." Meltdown.


  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    The_Mule_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    From an economics perspective, the question is where UK firms' profit margins are. If they are high, then this is a natural and positive rebalancing between capital and labour, with the share of GDP taken by wages rising at the expense of profit.

    On the other hand, if the share taken by profit is at or below normal levels, then firms will react to higher wage costs by reducing investment in the UK - which negatively affects the long-term growth prospects for the economy.

    I don't know the answer - although I can probably find it out :) - but it's important to recognise it cuts both ways.
    Would be very interested if you did find out. Would make an interesting edition of your excellent youtube series.
    There is a BoE corporate profits time series, but I need to sync it to GDP. Which - as it's 23:45 in LA - I will do tomorrow...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    It’s a double gamble, on the life expectancy of the newspaper and of the reader.
    Yep. There are hotel chains that make bulk purchases and hand them out for free to their guests; are these included in the circulation?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    It’s a double gamble, on the life expectancy of the newspaper and of the reader.
    Yep. There are hotel chains that make bulk purchases and hand them out for free to their guests; are these included in the circulation?
    Yes.
  • rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    From an economics perspective, the question is where UK firms' profit margins are. If they are high, then this is a natural and positive rebalancing between capital and labour, with the share of GDP taken by wages rising at the expense of profit.

    On the other hand, if the share taken by profit is at or below normal levels, then firms will react to higher wage costs by reducing investment in the UK - which negatively affects the long-term growth prospects for the economy.

    I don't know the answer - although I can probably find it out :) - but it's important to recognise it cuts both ways.
    Would be very interested if you did find out. Would make an interesting edition of your excellent youtube series.
    There is a BoE corporate profits time series, but I need to sync it to GDP. Which - as it's 23:45 in LA - I will do tomorrow...
    Much appreciated!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr B2,

    "There are hotel chains that make bulk purchases and hand them out for free to their guests."

    At a small hotel in San Diego, I saw a pile of the local newspapers, and took one before heading for the lift. I was suddenly pursued by a local who'd been sitting nearby demanding I pay for it.

    Obviously not US practice.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    It’s a trend seriously worrying some of my old colleagues.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    I cancelled my daily mail daily delivery and went on line at £9.99 per month.

    It is the paper edition but available on line from 11.00pm daily including the sunday mail and it is good to see that the editorial between the daily and sunday mail will become more nuanced and not contradictory.

    My wife particularly likes the puzzles

    It is not to be confused with mail on line which is not the actual newspaper

    I am very pleased if it supports a less aggressive hard Brexit
    What exactly is a ‘less aggressive hard Brexit’?

    I don’t think we’ve heard of that sub-species before.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.

    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    I'm the same. I read the Times pretty much every day 30 odd years ago at University and then the Indy but I stopped reading papers more than a decade ago. My wife buys the Courier (local) every day and the ST but I rarely open them. It is just so much easier getting the news I am actually interested in online.

    I am just not interested in paying for news. If people like me aren't willing to do so newspapers have serious problems and they will have far less political power going forward.
  • Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    I cancelled my daily mail daily delivery and went on line at £9.99 per month.

    It is the paper edition but available on line from 11.00pm daily including the sunday mail and it is good to see that the editorial between the daily and sunday mail will become more nuanced and not contradictory.

    My wife particularly likes the puzzles

    It is not to be confused with mail on line which is not the actual newspaper

    I am very pleased if it supports a less aggressive hard Brexit
    What exactly is a ‘less aggressive hard Brexit’?

    I don’t think we’ve heard of that sub-species before.
    Sorry, poor English by me - I meant to say no hard Brexit
  • Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    Soon the entire Telegraph will consist of a Matt cartoon and a Boris column. I'll cost 5 quid.
    The Matt cartoon might make that value for money.

    I also like their crossword: I’m not up to the Times’ one.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    CD13 said:

    Mr B2,

    "There are hotel chains that make bulk purchases and hand them out for free to their guests."

    At a small hotel in San Diego, I saw a pile of the local newspapers, and took one before heading for the lift. I was suddenly pursued by a local who'd been sitting nearby demanding I pay for it.

    Obviously not US practice.

    Lol

    If it was the Tribune it's not a bad paper.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    In these populist days I wonder if a milder Mail is commercially sensible, though welcome to sensitive souls like me. I'm staggered that BigG happily pays £118 a year to read it!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    In these populist days I wonder if a milder Mail is commercially sensible, though welcome to sensitive souls like me. I'm staggered that BigG happily pays £118 a year to read it!

    I guess it offers a gap for the Express to step in and become more rabid?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Foxy said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    It’s a very unique market, but commuters will read papers if they’re free and stacked at stations, morning and evening. What they tend not to do is queue to buy one at WHSmith.

    If he wants daily circulation numbers up he’s going to need to do something innovative.
    WHSmith is increasingly forlorn and empty of customers. Is it the next high st casualty? I think only the airport and large railway stations look profitable.
    The travel branch does tremendously welll. Suspect enough to carry the High st branches, if the company want too.

    But I dread to think what the rent and rates bill is for the latter - they’re always in prime locations.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.

    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    I'm the same. I read the Times pretty much every day 30 odd years ago at University and then the Indy but I stopped reading papers more than a decade ago. My wife buys the Courier (local) every day and the ST but I rarely open them. It is just so much easier getting the news I am actually interested in online.

    I am just not interested in paying for news. If people like me aren't willing to do so newspapers have serious problems and they will have far less political power going forward.
    Ditto. The daily paper went when I stopped daily commuting. Occasionally I buy one for a longer train journey, but it annoys me if I get the Guardian and find I have already read the most interesting bits online. On Sunday we used to get two newspapers, but most of the sections lay around unread; life is too short to study the kind of filler-journalism pap that SeanT and others churn out. Ending the Sunday subscription came as a kind of relief.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    It’s a trend seriously worrying some of my old colleagues.
    Newspapers put all their resources into op-ed writers. But opinions are ten a penny. Some idiots even churn them out for free online. There are very few op-ed writers indeed whose thoughts are so profound or whose writing is so beautiful that they are worth paying for.

    Newspapers cut all the fact-finders. But facts are harder to come by and what people might actually pay for.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    From an economics perspective, the question is where UK firms' profit margins are. If they are high, then this is a natural and positive rebalancing between capital and labour, with the share of GDP taken by wages rising at the expense of profit.

    On the other hand, if the share taken by profit is at or below normal levels, then firms will react to higher wage costs by reducing investment in the UK - which negatively affects the long-term growth prospects for the economy.

    I don't know the answer - although I can probably find it out :) - but it's important to recognise it cuts both ways.
    Would be very interested if you did find out. Would make an interesting edition of your excellent youtube series.
    There is a BoE corporate profits time series, but I need to sync it to GDP. Which - as it's 23:45 in LA - I will do tomorrow...
    If it is 23:45 already there is not long to wait.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.

    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    I'm the same. I read the Times pretty much every day 30 odd years ago at University and then the Indy but I stopped reading papers more than a decade ago. My wife buys the Courier (local) every day and the ST but I rarely open them. It is just so much easier getting the news I am actually interested in online.

    I am just not interested in paying for news. If people like me aren't willing to do so newspapers have serious problems and they will have far less political power going forward.
    Ditto. The daily paper went when I stopped daily commuting. Occasionally I buy one for a longer train journey, but it annoys me if I get the Guardian and find I have already read the most interesting bits online. On Sunday we used to get two newspapers, but most of the sections lay around unread; life is too short to study the kind of filler-journalism pap that SeanT and others churn out. Ending the Sunday subscription came as a kind of relief.
    Exactly: if I want SeanT filler pap, I just come on here at about 11pm on a Tuesday evening
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    A pedantic language point: this story refers to British Asians.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45133717

    In the US, they refer to (for example) Irish Americans. That makes the ethnicity an adjective and the nationality a noun. So, they're Americans who might be tall, and thin, and of Irish ancestry.

    In the UK, it's the opposite. They're Asians who happen to be British.

    Prefer the American way, personally.

    On a less pedantic point, I predict this will get less coverage than it might, and those irked by Boris' comments will be less keen to address this:
    "The survey found that less than half of respondents - 43% - thought same-sex relationships were acceptable."

    Also, nationality is seen as less important than religion, amongst 'Asian British' [after writing the above, scrolled down and saw the article inverted the order above a graph] compared to the general population.

    "On religion, over half of 18-34 year olds in the general population said it wasn't important to them "at all". Just 8% of young British Asians said the same."

    Interesting stats but nothing especially new. Trevor Phillips, formerly the Racial Equality, had a very good programme on Channel 4 a couple of years ago looking at this sort of thing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    Soon the entire Telegraph will consist of a Matt cartoon and a Boris column. I'll cost 5 quid.
    And it will only be worth buying for one of them....

    https://twitter.com/TomDavidson09/status/971789350609522689
    Worth every penny.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    It’s a double gamble, on the life expectancy of the newspaper and of the reader.
    Yep. There are hotel chains that make bulk purchases and hand them out for free to their guests; are these included in the circulation?
    There’s also a lot of international sales, a huge number of newspapers find themselves on a plane somewhere while the ink is still hot.

    Not sure if it’s still around, but there used to be a service that licenced scans of newspapers to hotels to print themselves, so for example a businessman in Dubai or HK could wake up to a printed copy of the FT with his cornflakes, or in London the NYT.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited August 2018
    O/T (Well linking in with the Mail theme) Does glyphosate really cause cancer ?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6053707/Weedkiller-ingredient-left-American-man-terminal-cancer-BREAD-CEREAL.html#newcomment

    The evidence (And excuse me if I've missed something) seem to consist of the unfortunate man getting Lymphona, and him using glyphosate heavily in his job. That's not enough to ascertain a link.
    Are there any peer reviewed papers to support the assertion ?
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    I cancelled my daily mail daily delivery and went on line at £9.99 per month.

    It is the paper edition but available on line from 11.00pm daily including the sunday mail and it is good to see that the editorial between the daily and sunday mail will become more nuanced and not contradictory.

    My wife particularly likes the puzzles

    It is not to be confused with mail on line which is not the actual newspaper

    I am very pleased if it supports a less aggressive hard Brexit
    What exactly is a ‘less aggressive hard Brexit’?

    I don’t think we’ve heard of that sub-species before.
    Sorry, poor English by me - I meant to say no hard Brexit
    More like mushy peas than diamonds then - understood.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    edited August 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    Soon the entire Telegraph will consist of a Matt cartoon and a Boris column. I'll cost 5 quid.
    That assumes they'll give up on the editorial puff pieces backing Johnson's interminable leadership bids.

    Should keep an intern gainfully employed, at least.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Pulpstar, if that's the only evidence the finding of the court seems bonkers. Hopefully there's more to it, because otherwise it seems to hold all the water of the Simpsons' and the tiger-deterring rock.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    It’s a trend seriously worrying some of my old colleagues.
    Newspapers put all their resources into op-ed writers. But opinions are ten a penny. Some idiots even churn them out for free online. There are very few op-ed writers indeed whose thoughts are so profound or whose writing is so beautiful that they are worth paying for.

    Newspapers cut all the fact-finders. But facts are harder to come by and what people might actually pay for.
    Another problem is that they all cover the same stories - the Guardian, Times, Telegraph etc. have much the same news with varying spin, while less obvious news stories are ignored - that's why we're nearly all struggling to work out what's been happening in Turkey. There is an online market for specialist information - e.g. I have a friend who is on mission to Erbil, so I read the sites specialising in updates on the situation in Kurdish Iraq, to keep an eye on whether she's got anything to worry about.

    You can't expect the Times to have a regular reporter in Erbil, but a network of occasional contributors across the world would be a cheap substitute which might gain readers, in the same way that Radio 4 will sometimes draw you into a report on the lives of fishermen in Burkino Faso or something equally esoteric.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Pulpstar,

    I've not looked into this particular case, but this is a bizarre judgement. There are a very few cancers with some degree of specificity and exclusivity.. Mesotheliomas are strongly associated with asbestos, but that's a rare exception, and for the others there are confounding factors by the score.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2018
    The_Mule_ said:

    Excellent news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/companies-brexit-supply-shock-fewer-eu-citizens-arrive-uk

    Key line - "Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response."

    "In this candidate-short landscape the pressure is on employers to not only offer an attractive salary, but also additional benefits.”

    Brexit increasing wages for the low and medium skilled just as predicted.

    As @rcs1000 has noted there are two sides to this depending upon other factors.

    At the simplest level an increase in wages could see prices rise or investment fall.

    Relatively few firms are likely to throw their hands up in the air and just accept lower profit margins. Of course if they are forced to make efficiency gains, and are able to do so, that would be a positive.

    Edit: of course we have already had significant price rises since Brexit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    It’s a trend seriously worrying some of my old colleagues.
    Newspapers put all their resources into op-ed writers. But opinions are ten a penny. Some idiots even churn them out for free online. There are very few op-ed writers indeed whose thoughts are so profound or whose writing is so beautiful that they are worth paying for.

    Newspapers cut all the fact-finders. But facts are harder to come by and what people might actually pay for.
    That’s a very astute point.

    The Telegraph as an example can find £7k a week to pay Boris for one column, but can’t find £1k for another sub-editor to catch all the mistakes that make it into print. If I were the recently redundant sub I’d be questioning their priorities.

    I agree that what people will pay for is impartial, well-researched news and investigations - old fashioned journalism rather than just opinions. The problem is that’s really expensive to do well.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I expect the top priority is to stop losing readers at the current rate. The Mail’s circulation figures have been dropping sharply. They’ve lost a quarter of their circulation since 2014. Shooing off the maddest readers to the Express is a bit of a gamble: where are the new readers going to come from?

    Online
    Well there’s the rub. Were going to see a crisis is the coming years. There is a second wave hitting traditional media. Young people are not picking up the online news habit. Older readers are not being replenished in print AND online. Big impact on some successful online news brands.
    Not even all that young. I consume far less traditional news than I did 20 years ago and the news I consume only occasionally comes from British newspapers.
    It’s a trend seriously worrying some of my old colleagues.
    Newspapers put all their resources into op-ed writers. But opinions are ten a penny. Some idiots even churn them out for free online. There are very few op-ed writers indeed whose thoughts are so profound or whose writing is so beautiful that they are worth paying for.

    Newspapers cut all the fact-finders. But facts are harder to come by and what people might actually pay for.
    Another problem is that they all cover the same stories - the Guardian, Times, Telegraph etc. have much the same news with varying spin, while less obvious news stories are ignored - that's why we're nearly all struggling to work out what's been happening in Turkey. There is an online market for specialist information - e.g. I have a friend who is on mission to Erbil, so I read the sites specialising in updates on the situation in Kurdish Iraq, to keep an eye on whether she's got anything to worry about.

    You can't expect the Times to have a regular reporter in Erbil, but a network of occasional contributors across the world would be a cheap substitute which might gain readers, in the same way that Radio 4 will sometimes draw you into a report on the lives of fishermen in Burkino Faso or something equally esoteric.
    This is another aspect of the same problem. They’ve all cut costs so they all cover only the biggest stories. This is one reason why the burqa brouhaha has rumbled on for so long even though few are very interested.

    I don’t understand why newspapers didn’t internationalise: if the Guardian, the New York Times etc etc formed a one world alliance they could share journalists and give much more in depth coverage.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited August 2018
    Dave's departure will certainly create a gap on the right but the Mail has not always been as stridently anti EU as you would expect e.g. in 2001 the Mail backed Ken Clarke to be next Tory leader while the Sun and Daily Telegraph backed IDS and the Mail on Sunday backed Remain.

    However with 74% of Mail readers voting Tory in 2017 and just 17% voting Labour and 3% voting LD and UKIP it will remain a strongly pro Tory paper even under Greig regardless of whether it becomes less pro Boris and more pro May


    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/13/how-britain-voted-2017-general-election/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    CD13 said:

    "The Mail is the house paper for the easily outraged." Indeed, and they do it better than the others. Although the Boris speech outraged the other end of the spectrum.

    Step forward the Guardian, the newspaper for taking offence on behalf of others, and also the easily offended.

    "Nuns look like penguins." Yawn.
    !Muslims look like letterboxes." Meltdown.


    The Guardian is the same, just from a left wing perspective.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    I agree this is important, politically.

    It's astonishing how much influence one man can have over the whole paper's editorial line.

    I'd have thought he needs to be careful he doesn't lose readers to the Express and Telegraph either way.

    He's in a relatively strong position there though, as The Telegraph's been a mess editorially for s while, and the Express is now largely a regurgitative paper with a token celebration of Brexit.Neither are serious mid market tabloids able to rival the Mail.
    True, the Telegraph seems to have self destructed over the last 8-10 years.

    And to think it was once a serious rival to the Times.
    Many of its readers are gambling by taking an annual subscription.
    Soon the entire Telegraph will consist of a Matt cartoon and a Boris column. I'll cost 5 quid.
    The Matt cartoon might make that value for money.

    I also like their crossword: I’m not up to the Times’ one.
    Crosswords and puzzles are the leisurely pursuits of the retired.

    Very few others have the time to do them, or the space to fill.
This discussion has been closed.