I'm not sure I agree with the premise of the thread. To guarantee getting to the final 2, a leadership contender needs to get a third of MPs+1 in the final ballot (currently 106). Does he have anywhere near that level of support? I would say unlikely. Therefore the Cons could have a leaadership election and make sure Boris doesn't reach the final 2.
I agree. Others, notably Mr Meeks, will say that he probably only needs 85-90 votes to be second in the round of three - which last time round was May 199, Leadsom 84 and Gove 46.
Boris didn’t stand last time, which was probably his best opportunity, I’m not sure he’d even stand next time either. The MPs who form the electorate know all the stories and rumours from over the years, and they also saw first hand his less-than-brilliant performance in a high-profile ministerial office.
Maths explained above. 2001 was exceptional. In 2005, David Davis got the backing of 28.8% of the MPs. In 2016, Andrea Leadsom got the backing of 25.5% of the MPs. This translates in today's electorate to 91 and 81 respectively. These are not impossible numbers for BJ.
Your maths I agree with, I just don’t think Boris has those numbers among the MPs in the final round - unless of course the MPs screw up the earlier rounds and leave him up against Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve! There would be a ‘Stop Boris’ candidate such as Javid or Gove, and a former chief whip or two whispering among the MPs about. Boris’ very long entry in the little black book.
You need not one but two "stop Boris" candidates.
Who is the hope of those Leavers who like their Brexit diamond-tipped? Jacob Rees-Mogg is evidently backing Boris Johnson. The headbangers look set to coalesce round him.
I think that group is smaller among the PCP than the amount of noise they make. The ERG group are about 80 MPs and a fair few of them are as likely to vote for Boris as you or I.
Cue our resident medical experts explaining why they know more than a drug company...
Didn't need medicine back in my day. Bloody immigrants bringing in their dirty foreign germs, making us sick. Tuberculosis epidemic is a price well worth paying for DEMOCRACY.
You do realise that the article is that EU countries would not get the drugs made in the UK? i.e your TB epidemic would be on continental Europe.
Cue our resident medical experts explaining why they know more than a drug company...
Didn't need medicine back in my day. Bloody immigrants bringing in their dirty foreign germs, making us sick. Tuberculosis epidemic is a price well worth paying for DEMOCRACY.
You do realise that the article is that EU countries would not get the drugs made in the UK? i.e your TB epidemic would be on continental Europe.
Foreign germs for foreign people. Wall up the Tunnel!!
[the idea that there's no symmetrical argument for shortages in the UK is for the birds]
Cue our resident medical experts explaining why they know more than a drug company...
Didn't need medicine back in my day. Bloody immigrants bringing in their dirty foreign germs, making us sick. Tuberculosis epidemic is a price well worth paying for DEMOCRACY.
You do realise that the article is that EU countries would not get the drugs made in the UK? i.e your TB epidemic would be on continental Europe.
Foreign germs for foreign people. Wall up the Tunnel!!
[the idea that there's no symmetrical argument for shortages in the UK is for the birds]
How convenient.
[The idea there will be shortages is for the birds.]
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Still sticking to Jeremy Hunt emerging from the wreckage of a bitter Tory leadership campaign...
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
I'd be very happy to see freedom of movement with Australia.
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
You could also ask Australia discriminates in favour of people from New Zealand above Brits?
In fact there's no discrimination involved because in the case of the EU or Australia/NZ we are talking about reciprocal rights. There is absolutely nothing stopping the UK giving privileged access to Australians while being in the EU.
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
If that were true, Boris would be Leader for Life.....
Diaspora Brexiteers are the most deluded and dangerous of all, trying to bring their fantasy vision of a country that doesn't exist and cannot exist to life.
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
If that were true, Boris would be Leader for Life.....
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
You could also ask Australia discriminates in favour of people from New Zealand above Brits?
In fact there's no discrimination involved because in the case of the EU or Australia/NZ we are talking about reciprocal rights. There is absolutely nothing stopping the UK giving privileged access to Australians while being in the EU.
This may be true. Unfortunately for you a lot of things politicians don't want to do (or be bothered with) are blamed on the EU. Ironically we need to leave the EU for that fact to be recognised and for politics to become more transparent.
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
You could also ask Australia discriminates in favour of people from New Zealand above Brits?
In fact there's no discrimination involved because in the case of the EU or Australia/NZ we are talking about reciprocal rights. There is absolutely nothing stopping the UK giving privileged access to Australians while being in the EU.
This may be true. Unfortunately for you a lot of things politicians don't want to do (or be bothered with) are blamed on the EU. Ironically we need to leave the EU for that fact to be recognised and for politics to become more transparent.
I think the failure of Brexit to happen would have enough of a humiliating and humbling effect on the political class for that to happen.
After a Remain victory in a people's vote, we need a public inquiry where all the delusions that led us here are raked over. Debrexification will be a serious business.
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
If that were true, Boris would be Leader for Life.....
That joke isn't funny any more.
Which is ironic, because Boris Johnson is mutating into Morrissey's dream politician.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Business Secretary and pretty anonymous as Communities Secretary although he did some good work on agents in letting contracts and his initial responses to Grenfell showed good judgment. More of the same in respect of Windrush and he has made a series of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say that the current crisis in LG finance evolved during his watch as Communities Secretary and there is limited evidence of a clear philosophy guiding his thinking. It is more alert and tactical than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
I think there was effective freedom of movement with Australia till 1961 or thereabouts (?). Whether Australia would agree to freedom of movement with us now is a different matter and one for them, however, to explicitly favour Europeans with no preconditions whatsoever over (say) PhD qualified native English speaking Australians is a frankly strange state of affairs we have ended up in since about 1961 because of our own decision making as a country.
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
You could also ask Australia discriminates in favour of people from New Zealand above Brits?
In fact there's no discrimination involved because in the case of the EU or Australia/NZ we are talking about reciprocal rights. There is absolutely nothing stopping the UK giving privileged access to Australians while being in the EU.
This may be true. Unfortunately for you a lot of things politicians don't want to do (or be bothered with) are blamed on the EU. Ironically we need to leave the EU for that fact to be recognised and for politics to become more transparent.
I think the failure of Brexit to happen would have enough of a humiliating and humbling effect on the political class for that to happen.
After a Remain victory in a people's vote, we need a public inquiry where all the delusions that led us here are raked over. Debrexification will be a serious business.
What's your model? More Truth and Reconciliation or Denazification?
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
No it is not.
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Perhaps fellow EU members can hop on a bus and come to the UK because we can currently also hop on a bus and go to their countries - it's a reciprocal agreement.
I'd have no problem with Aussies freely moving to the UK if Australia reciprocates. It doesn't and it won't therefore there is nothing discriminatory about it. Even though we could demonstrate financial self sufficiency we would not even be aloud to retire to Australia let alone work there so why should we let Australians move here to work just because they want to?
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
If that were true, Boris would be Leader for Life.....
That joke isn't funny any more.
Which is ironic, because Boris Johnson is mutating into Morrissey's dream politician.
To his fans: There is a Light That Never Goes Out
To the current Conservative Party leadership: Panic
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
If that were true, Boris would be Leader for Life.....
That joke isn't funny any more.
Which is ironic, because Boris Johnson is mutating into Morrissey's dream politician.
To his fans: There is a Light That Never Goes Out
To the current Conservative Party leadership: Panic
I think the nation's social cohesion is already under threat and the thought of a Johnson-led government would be even more concerning.It's important to put out the fires of social divisions that Johnson would only exaccerbate.You cannot tackle the issue of community cohesion with water-cannon.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
Indeed. And nothing is going to change.
I assume similar arrangements used to be in place in effect with NZ/Aus/Canada or indeed parts of the Carribean. (Dreams wistfully).
All of which were/would be of far more use to your average Brit than the abilty to sign on in Cluj.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
Most important characteristic of any global leader is the ability to entertain.
If that were true, Boris would be Leader for Life.....
That joke isn't funny any more.
Which is ironic, because Boris Johnson is mutating into Morrissey's dream politician.
To his fans: There is a Light That Never Goes Out
To the current Conservative Party leadership: Panic
Mr. 1961, (from some time earlier), said adverts were banned on the Tube by Khan. I wasn't making the suggestion you personally were against them, just that the chattering classes and current discourse (in London, anyway...) appears to be that telling women what to dress is fine if you're being puritanical, even to the extent of depriving women of work, but that oafishly mocking a garment such as the burka is utterly unacceptable.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Irish citizens resident in the UK can vote in all UK elections and referenda, even though they are not Commonwealth citizens. This is because the Ireland Act 1949 deems the Republic of Ireland to not be a foreign country and so Irish citizens are not aliens within the meaning of British law.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Irish citizens resident in the UK can vote in all UK elections and referenda, even though they are not Commonwealth citizens. This is because the Ireland Act 1949 deems the Republic of Ireland to not be a foreign country and so Irish citizens are not aliens within the meaning of British law.
Is that not a way to square the circle regarding NI and the customs union?
We say Ireland is not a foreign country (as per 1949 Act) so there can be no hard border. They say NI is not a foreign country (as per their Constitution and GFA I believe) so no hard border.
People moan it's not treated the same as other borders as per WTO MFN rules, we insist it's not a border so jog on.
Are we sure the Mogglodytes are coalescing around Boris?
Mogg, for all his faults, is not an imbecile. He must know he can't trust Boris as far as he can comfortably spit him.
But he's the best shot Mogg and the ERG has got of a proppa Brexit being delivered. Who else would be in the frame?
Boris would just capitulate in a more obvious fashion. He's not going to spend billions on customs infrastructure when he could spend it on a grand project with his name on it.
So traditionally Conservative Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, at the same time as Muslims living in Western liberal countries are becoming more conservative. There’s a PhD thesis in there somewhere.
You could perhaps do a comparative study looking at why some British expats are drawn to putting on Union Jack underpants and agitating for Brexit.
That’s very easy to understand, although obviously I’d use different words to you.
Those who have spent time living and working outside the EU can and do see there’s a big wide world out there and it’s expanding rapidly.
A straw poll of acquaintances before the referendum was about 50/50 - but the sample was all ABC1 class white collar workers, a demographic that was more like 70/30 in favour of remain among those living in the UK.
It's completely irrational to use that logic to argue that leaving the EU will benefit the UK, or that what is preventing the UK being like Dubai is membership of the EU.
This deserves a longer reply than I can pen on my phone right now, will write some more thoughts down this evening.
We say Ireland is not a foreign country (as per 1949 Act) so there can be no hard border. They say NI is not a foreign country (as per their Constitution and GFA I believe) so no hard border.
Unfortunately the GFA had precisely the opposite effect in Irish law. They changed their constitution to recognise Northern Ireland as UK territory whereas previously they claimed the whole island of Ireland and treated the UK as an occupying power.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Irish citizens resident in the UK can vote in all UK elections and referenda, even though they are not Commonwealth citizens. This is because the Ireland Act 1949 deems the Republic of Ireland to not be a foreign country and so Irish citizens are not aliens within the meaning of British law.
Is that not a way to square the circle regarding NI and the customs union?
We say Ireland is not a foreign country (as per 1949 Act) so there can be no hard border. They say NI is not a foreign country (as per their Constitution and GFA I believe) so no hard border.
People moan it's not treated the same as other borders as per WTO MFN rules, we insist it's not a border so jog on.
That is an interesting suggestion. For those interested, here is the wording of the relevant legislation, Ireland Act 1949, Section 2 (1):
It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly.
The bit about ships and aircraft is quite interesting in this context too.
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Business Secretary and pretty anonymous as Communities Secretary although he did some good work on agents in letting contracts and his initial responses to Grenfell showed good judgment. More of the same in respect of Windrush and he has made a series of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say that the current crisis in LG finance evolved during his watch as Communities Secretary and there is limited evidence of a clear philosophy guiding his thinking. It is more alert and tactical than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
Moreover, he is smart. He went from son of a bus driver to director at Deutsche Bank. That takes brains, and guile, and drive.
And he has political and economic nous, and foresight:
"Aged 20, Javid attended the annual Conservative Party Conference for the first time and campaigned against the Thatcher government's decision that year to join the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM), calling it a "fatal mistake".[10]"
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
What Johnson has said is trivial compared to this massacre perpetrated by the criminal Saudi regime:
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
Because we're not (and never will be) in a political and economic union with Australia that had freedom of movement.
We weren't with the Irish Free State/ROI. But there was freedom of movement before 1973, and indeed with more rights than exist now under the EU. It was a choice we made (with the Irish - and a good one).
Irish citizens in the UK (and British in Ireland) still enjoy more rights in those countries than other EU citizens. An Irish person arriving in the UK is deemed "settled" for immigration purposes from arrival for instance. Other EU citizens have to go through extra steps to achieve that status.
There's still an anomaly where Commonwealth citizens are allowed to vote in General Elections (and the EU referendum), but EU citizens are not.
Irish citizens resident in the UK can vote in all UK elections and referenda, even though they are not Commonwealth citizens. This is because the Ireland Act 1949 deems the Republic of Ireland to not be a foreign country and so Irish citizens are not aliens within the meaning of British law.
Is that not a way to square the circle regarding NI and the customs union?
We say Ireland is not a foreign country (as per 1949 Act) so there can be no hard border. They say NI is not a foreign country (as per their Constitution and GFA I believe) so no hard border.
People moan it's not treated the same as other borders as per WTO MFN rules, we insist it's not a border so jog on.
If both sides jointly, say by treaty, agree that NI is a part of the RoI then I think that Arlene might have a teensy weeny thing to say about it.
@CalumSPlath the thing that annoys me about those middle-class liberals who say things like "London should declare independence"/"the North is racist, they deserve what they get from Brexit" is that it ignores that London made Boris their Mayor not once, but twice.
@CalumSPlath Boris depended on the support of London liberals who didn't like things like the congestion charge, or thought Boris would be better for their own pocket, who were willing to ignore or excuse his racism. Just because London voted Remain doesn't exculpate it from political racism.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Businesses of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say that the current crisis in LG finance evolved during his watch as Communities Secretary and there is limited evidence of a clear philosophy guiding his thinking. It is more alert and tactical than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
Moreover, he is smart. He went from son of a bus driver to director at Deutsche Bank. That takes brains, and guile, and drive.
And he has political and economic nous, and foresight:
"Aged 20, Javid attended the annual Conservative Party Conference for the first time and campaigned against the Thatcher government's decision that year to join the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM), calling it a "fatal mistake".[10]"
But if it is Javid v Boris - the membership would PROBABLY go Boris. Because they can't quite trust Javid yet to deliver Brexit.
Quite. Conservative Leavers are so deranged that they will choose someone manifestly unfit for the job because Brexit is more important than anything else, including the governance of the country, or even its continuing existence.
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
As Stephen Bush is implying on Twitter, the Tory top brass are probably making such a song and dance about the Boris comments as a Trojan Horse, to distract from the far more serious problems with Islamophobia that the Tories also have. Cf. the Muslim former Tory aspiring parliamentary candidate, who told Newsnight the other day of all the offensive questions she got asked in selection processes.
But if it is Javid v Boris - the membership would PROBABLY go Boris. Because they can't quite trust Javid yet to deliver Brexit.
Quite. Conservative Leavers are so deranged that they will choose someone manifestly unfit for the job because Brexit is more important than anything else, including the governance of the country, or even its continuing existence.
Why the fucking fuck the LibDems are still languishing where they are is beyond me. Shower of utter, utter cretins on both the left and the right; Brexit on the news every single day; an avowedly europhile, once-significant party can't get a look in.
Vince has a lot to answer for. Perhaps he died and no-one noticed?
Boris depended on the support of London liberals who didn't like things like the congestion charge, or thought Boris would be better for their own pocket, who were willing to ignore or excuse his racism. Just because London voted Remain doesn't exculpate it from political racism.
One of the many curiosities of Boris is that he is basically the only British politician to hold high office who has ever done anything for cycling; yet his audience now are largely the sort of car-mad goons who want all them bloody cyclists off the road. He is indeed Marmite, but a Marmite where the taste changes every few years.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Businesses of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say that the current crisis in LG finance evolved during his watch as Communities Secretary and there is limited evidence of a clear philosophy guiding his thinking. It is more alert and tactical than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
Moreover, he is smart. He went from son of a bus driver to director at Deutsche Bank. That takes brains, and guile, and drive.
And he has political and economic nous, and foresight:
"Aged 20, Javid attended the annual Conservative Party Conference for the first time and campaigned against the Thatcher government's decision that year to join the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM), calling it a "fatal mistake".[10]"
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
As Stephen Bush is implying on Twitter, the Tory top brass are probably making such a song and dance about the Boris comments as a Trojan Horse, to distract from the far more serious problems with Islamophobia that the Tories also have. Cf. the Muslim former Tory aspiring parliamentary candidate, who told Newsnight the other day of all the offensive questions she got asked in selection processes.
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
But if it is Javid v Boris - the membership would PROBABLY go Boris. Because they can't quite trust Javid yet to deliver Brexit.
Quite. Conservative Leavers are so deranged that they will choose someone manifestly unfit for the job because Brexit is more important than anything else, including the governance of the country, or even its continuing existence.
Why the fucking fuck the LibDems are still languishing where they are is beyond me. Shower of utter, utter cretins on both the left and the right; Brexit on the news every single day; an avowedly europhile, once-significant party can't get a look in.
Vince has a lot to answer for. Perhaps he died and no-one noticed?
To some extent the BBC has a case to answer here. Faced with questions about Brexit they are more likely to turn to Farage than to Vince.
Maybe it’s the LD Press Office.
Or they need to get Jo Swinson, or just possibly Layla Moran into the leaders job PDQ!
Looking at the impressive size, heading and low velocity of the system, I'd guess we won't have much play until mid to late afternoon. The back end of the feature is currently sat over Nantes, in the Loire Valley. It's going to take three to four hours to clear central London.
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
As Stephen Bush is implying on Twitter, the Tory top brass are probably making such a song and dance about the Boris comments as a Trojan Horse, to distract from the far more serious problems with Islamophobia that the Tories also have. Cf. the Muslim former Tory aspiring parliamentary candidate, who told Newsnight the other day of all the offensive questions she got asked in selection processes.
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
I was originally rather dismissive of Lady Warsi's comments, but having paid a bit more attention recently, I think she has a point. 'Islamophobia' is probably too strong a word, but I think she is right that there is a kind of casual prejudice which is not being sufficiently recognised and challenged. This is not only in the Conservative Party, of course, it's very widespread. Her 'dinner-party test' comment was spot-on.
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
As Stephen Bush is implying on Twitter, the Tory top brass are probably making such a song and dance about the Boris comments as a Trojan Horse, to distract from the far more serious problems with Islamophobia that the Tories also have. Cf. the Muslim former Tory aspiring parliamentary candidate, who told Newsnight the other day of all the offensive questions she got asked in selection processes.
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
Do you not think asking a potential parliamentary candidate extensive questions about the British Raj, the National Black Policeman's Association, and referring to her and fellow Muslims as "you people" is inappropriate and probably Islamophobic? Do you not think, if equivalents had happened in Labour (say, a potential Jewish candidate was only asked questions about Israel, was asked why the Board of Jewish Deputies was "needed", and references to Jews as "you people", all of which reducing the person to tears), that you and other PBTories would be in uproar over it?
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
As Stephen Bush is implying on Twitter, the Tory top brass are probably making such a song and dance about the Boris comments as a Trojan Horse, to distract from the far more serious problems with Islamophobia that the Tories also have. Cf. the Muslim former Tory aspiring parliamentary candidate, who told Newsnight the other day of all the offensive questions she got asked in selection processes.
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
I think it’s all code for “how dare you sack me”.
As early as 1545hrs you have just won the Pathetic Reply of the Day award.
Boris depended on the support of London liberals who didn't like things like the congestion charge, or thought Boris would be better for their own pocket, who were willing to ignore or excuse his racism. Just because London voted Remain doesn't exculpate it from political racism.
One of the many curiosities of Boris is that he is basically the only British politician to hold high office who has ever done anything for cycling; yet his audience now are largely the sort of car-mad goons who want all them bloody cyclists off the road. He is indeed Marmite, but a Marmite where the taste changes every few years.
What Boris did for cycling was not cancel the Boris Bikes idea Ken Livingstone had nicked from Paris.
Apropos to SeanT's remark, the wearing of face masks (whatever you call 'em) should be I.L.L.E.G.A.L. while driving.
What if you're driving a high-performance open-top vehicle for which wearing a crash helmet would be prudent?
Or riding a motorbike?
Indeed. But @toms did specify "driving" as opposed to "riding".
All very funny chaps, but have a close look next time you spot somebody wearing a burqa, and ask yourself how safe she would be driving a car (or motorbike) on the Queen's highway. And it does happen when, as a cyclist and pedestrian, I have found it scary.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Businesses of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
Moreover, he is smart. He went from son of a bus driver to director at Deutsche Bank. That takes brains, and guile, and drive.
And he has political and economic nous, and foresight:
"Aged 20, Javid attended the annual Conservative Party Conference for the first time and campaigned against the Thatcher government's decision that year to join the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM), calling it a "fatal mistake".[10]"
OT and apropos of nothing, a really good piece on Trump's coalition, which parts are holding for him and which parts aren't, and how the exit polls were probably wrong:
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
I was originally rather dismissive of Lady Warsi's comments, but having paid a bit more attention recently, I think she has a point. 'Islamophobia' is probably too strong a word, but I think she is right that there is a kind of casual prejudice which is not being sufficiently recognised and challenged. This is not only in the Conservative Party, of course, it's very widespread. Her 'dinner-party test' comment was spot-on.
Depends on whether you think all religion can be and should be questioned, no religion can be questioned or only one or a few can be questioned. That then leads to whether or not we should have religiousaphobia or have an arms race of where criticism of my religion is far worse than criticism of any other religion. Personally I would hope that these religious people would be able to argue their case with intelligence and civility as opposed to saying a book is right and you are insulting it, off with your head.
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
What percentage do you think wear a Burqa because they want to?
I can't understand why the Conservative hierarchy didn't strongly suggest that Boris Johnson spend an extended length of time in mosques up and down the country listening to the concerns of hard-working Muslim families. That would have been rather harder for him to brush off than a request for an apology.
As Stephen Bush is implying on Twitter, the Tory top brass are probably making such a song and dance about the Boris comments as a Trojan Horse, to distract from the far more serious problems with Islamophobia that the Tories also have. Cf. the Muslim former Tory aspiring parliamentary candidate, who told Newsnight the other day of all the offensive questions she got asked in selection processes.
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
Do you not think asking a potential parliamentary candidate extensive questions about the British Raj, the National Black Policeman's Association, and referring to her and fellow Muslims as "you people" is inappropriate and probably Islamophobic? Do you not think, if equivalents had happened in Labour (say, a potential Jewish candidate was only asked questions about Israel, was asked why the Board of Jewish Deputies was "needed", and references to Jews as "you people", all of which reducing the person to tears), that you and other PBTories would be in uproar over it?
If for example her CV, and/or her presentation, focused on issues of race and religion, then I could certainly see that it would be reasonable to ask questions along those lines.
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
What percentage do you think wear a Burqa because they want to?
What percentage of Jews do you think wear a yarmulke because they want to?
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
What percentage do you think wear a Burqa because they want to?
What percentage of Jews do you think wear a yarmulke because they want to?
There are a lot of scattergun accusations of Islamophobia.
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
I was originally rather dismissive of Lady Warsi's comments, but having paid a bit more attention recently, I think she has a point. 'Islamophobia' is probably too strong a word, but I think she is right that there is a kind of casual prejudice which is not being sufficiently recognised and challenged. This is not only in the Conservative Party, of course, it's very widespread. Her 'dinner-party test' comment was spot-on.
She increasingly champions hardliners within her own community.
One of the biggest problems that we have in the Liberal Democrats is that we're not viciously tearing lumps out of ourselves at the moment. These days you don't get a look in in the media unless you're attacking your own side... Maybe we need Tim Farron to say something else really stupid so that we can all publicly condemn him on the strongest terms...
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Businesses of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
snip As you say, the competition is not exactly fierce.
Right now I'd make him favourite, Bojo second. Hammon third.
Sigh.
But if it is Javid v Boris - the membership would PROBABLY go Boris. Because they can't quite trust Javid yet to deliver Brexit.
Javid is a Brexiter. Brexit would be safe in his hands.
Nope. Remainer.
You're going to have to trust me on this, he is a Brexiter who threw his hat in to the Remain camp for Dave.
Okay, you've always struck me as a decent sort who can be trusted! He voted Remain but you might well be right that he is a Leaver at heart!
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
That's a great question.
The British haven't offered a reciprocal free movement deal with Australia because British voters hate freedom. (I have no idea whether Australia would accept if offered.)
While in the EU British people had freedoms that their fellow British voters wouldn't otherwise have let them have because it wasn't up to their fellow British voters.
I think it should be obvious from the Australia case that it's better if you can avoid giving the voters the ability to make judgements like this about your life, which they will use to take away your freedom. But if the WTO or the Commonwealth or some other international body also had requirements like this, and British voters grudgingly accepted it to be able to export their jam or whatever, that would be great. Sadly there isn't a bigger, more global version of the EU, although the EU was slowly growing to take in more countries.
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
What percentage do you think wear a Burqa because they want to?
What percentage of Jews do you think wear a yarmulke because they want to?
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
What percentage do you think wear a Burqa because they want to?
What percentage of Jews do you think wear a yarmulke because they want to?
Indeed. How many Jewish boys are circumcised because they want to be?
For what it's worth, I loathe the burka just as I loathe the practice of circumcision (which I would ban for children except for proven medical reasons - once you are an adult you can make that informed choice). I'd also ban all faith schools and the teaching of any religion on schools beyond academic study of it (again let adults make choices about religion, don't force feed it to children). I realise I am in a tiny minority but those are nevertheless my views.
Re: Boris. Topping is right, The guy is a bully, and a grasping self-serving one at that. He knew what he was doing and such bad manners has no place in British political discourse.
Having thought about it, the only way I'd vote for Boris is if he was running against Soubry. I'd take any other leader.
I'd vote for him over TMay.
I think Javid in the end is maybe the best bet. And probably should be favourite.
Is that before or after you deport him for being a (secular) Muslim?
In all seriousness, you are right. Javid is by far the best candidate, it's amazing more Tories don't see it. If we were to have another Tory PM, I would very much hope it was him.
This conservative supports Javid. Boris would be a disaster - wholly unsuitable for high office
Need to see more of Javid. I fear he could by very, very dull - and end up making even Theresa May look like a titan of the improv comedy scene in comparison.
I can't imagine her telling the condom joke. But it is potential rather than a concrete record. He was poor on deregulation as Businesses of populist and sensible moves as Home Sec, not being afraid to reverse the policies of his predecessor.
I think a critic would say than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
snip As you say, the competition is not exactly fierce.
Right now I'd make him favourite, Bojo second. Hammon third.
Sigh.
But if it is Javid v Boris - the membership would PROBABLY go Boris. Because they can't quite trust Javid yet to deliver Brexit.
Javid is a Brexiter. Brexit would be safe in his hands.
Nope. Remainer.
You're going to have to trust me on this, he is a Brexiter who threw his hat in to the Remain camp for Dave.
Okay, you've always struck me as a decent sort who can be trusted! He voted Remain but you might well be right that he is a Leaver at heart!
Not my view but that of those that really do know.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
That's a great question.
The British haven't offered a reciprocal free movement deal with Australia because British voters hate freedom. (I have no idea whether Australia would accept if offered.)
While in the EU British people had freedoms that their fellow British voters wouldn't otherwise have let them have because it wasn't up to their fellow British voters.
I think it should be obvious from the Australia case that it's better if you can avoid giving the voters the ability to make judgements like this about your life, which they will use to take away your freedom. But if the WTO or the Commonwealth or some other international body also had requirements like this, and British voters grudgingly accepted it to be able to export their jam or whatever, that would be great. Sadly there isn't a bigger, more global version of the EU, although the EU was slowly growing to take in more countries.
So British voters aren't allowed to vote for things they want or don't want?
Comments
i.e your TB epidemic would be on continental Europe.
[the idea that there's no symmetrical argument for shortages in the UK is for the birds]
[The idea there will be shortages is for the birds.]
I grew up as an ex pat in Australia and it is completely irrational to me that we make life difficult for educated Aussies wanting to work here (I know the hoops some of my school friends who've had to come here have jumped through) while uneducated, unskilled Europeans who want to come here can hop on a coach and move here no questions asked with full access to welfare.
Nobody has yet given me a decent answer as to why we should be discriminating against my friends down under. Have you got one?
In fact there's no discrimination involved because in the case of the EU or Australia/NZ we are talking about reciprocal rights. There is absolutely nothing stopping the UK giving privileged access to Australians while being in the EU.
Mogg, for all his faults, is not an imbecile. He must know he can't trust Boris as far as he can comfortably spit him.
http://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/baillie-giffords-anderson-questions-musks-tesla-valuation/a1145252
Would prefer to hold on to his shares even if it went private.
Which might suggest that financing the buyout might not be impossible.
After a Remain victory in a people's vote, we need a public inquiry where all the delusions that led us here are raked over. Debrexification will be a serious business.
Which is ironic, because Boris Johnson is mutating into Morrissey's dream politician.
I think a critic would say that the current crisis in LG finance evolved during his watch as Communities Secretary and there is limited evidence of a clear philosophy guiding his thinking. It is more alert and tactical than that.
But let's face it. Anyone scoring more than 5/10 in this Cabinet is a real contender. There are very few who do. He is the obvious contender from the cabinet at the moment.
I think there was effective freedom of movement with Australia till 1961 or thereabouts (?). Whether Australia would agree to freedom of movement with us now is a different matter and one for them, however, to explicitly favour Europeans with no preconditions whatsoever over (say) PhD qualified native English speaking Australians is a frankly strange state of affairs we have ended up in since about 1961 because of our own decision making as a country.
I'd have no problem with Aussies freely moving to the UK if Australia reciprocates. It doesn't and it won't therefore there is nothing discriminatory about it. Even though we could demonstrate financial self sufficiency we would not even be aloud to retire to Australia let alone work there so why should we let Australians move here to work just because they want to?
To the current Conservative Party leadership: Panic
Gets coat.....
I assume similar arrangements used to be in place in effect with NZ/Aus/Canada or indeed parts of the Carribean. (Dreams wistfully).
All of which were/would be of far more use to your average Brit than the abilty to sign on in Cluj.
You just haven't earned it yet, baby.....
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1027548407823585280
Mr. 1961, (from some time earlier), said adverts were banned on the Tube by Khan. I wasn't making the suggestion you personally were against them, just that the chattering classes and current discourse (in London, anyway...) appears to be that telling women what to dress is fine if you're being puritanical, even to the extent of depriving women of work, but that oafishly mocking a garment such as the burka is utterly unacceptable.
We say Ireland is not a foreign country (as per 1949 Act) so there can be no hard border.
They say NI is not a foreign country (as per their Constitution and GFA I believe) so no hard border.
People moan it's not treated the same as other borders as per WTO MFN rules, we insist it's not a border so jog on.
The idea that he needs May's permission to investigate the numerous complaints that have been made to him is ludicrous.
If May wishes to defend Boris she will, of course, be perfectly able to speak on his behalf during the panel hearings.
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Lol.
You want to do kissy-kissy with him behind the bins.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45128367
@CalumSPlath
the thing that annoys me about those middle-class liberals who say things like "London should declare independence"/"the North is racist, they deserve what they get from Brexit" is that it ignores that London made Boris their Mayor not once, but twice.
@CalumSPlath
Boris depended on the support of London liberals who didn't like things like the congestion charge, or thought Boris would be better for their own pocket, who were willing to ignore or excuse his racism. Just because London voted Remain doesn't exculpate it from political racism.
Vince has a lot to answer for. Perhaps he died and no-one noticed?
Lady Warsi has accused the Conservatives of Islamophobia over variously, the appointment of Sara Khan as Lead Commissioner on Extremism, the government's attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the operation of the Prevent programme.
Sara Champion gets accused of Islamophobia for speaking up for the victims of child rape.
Maybe it’s the LD Press Office.
Or they need to get Jo Swinson, or just possibly Layla Moran into the leaders job PDQ!
11:59AM
Looking at the impressive size, heading and low velocity of the system, I'd guess we won't have much play until mid to late afternoon. The back end of the feature is currently sat over Nantes, in the Loire Valley. It's going to take three to four hours to clear central London.
*buffs fingernails*
The wicket and run-up areas, I get.
Boris wins because the centre to the right ,would vote for BJ ,whatever their concerns.
From 4:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT-6MhXyhm4
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/09/upshot/trump-voters-how-theyve-changed.html
That then leads to whether or not we should have religiousaphobia or have an arms race of where criticism of my religion is far worse than criticism of any other religion.
Personally I would hope that these religious people would be able to argue their case with intelligence and civility as opposed to saying a book is right and you are insulting it, off with your head.
As I said recently, it is rude and bullying and should absolutely not have come out of a mainstream politician's mouth.
It does just what Corbyn has done, it legitimises discrimination against The Other.
Oh of course we can console ourselves that as some Muslims wear burqas, and some Muslims want to create a caliphate in Primrose Hill, all Muslims who wear the burqa are bad. But that of course would be a simpleton's argument.
Not that PB is short of simpletons.
The forced wearing of it I agree is a separate issue.
If for example her CV, and/or her presentation, focused on issues of race and religion, then I could certainly see that it would be reasonable to ask questions along those lines.
One of the biggest problems that we have in the Liberal Democrats is that we're not viciously tearing lumps out of ourselves at the moment. These days you don't get a look in in the media unless you're attacking your own side... Maybe we need Tim Farron to say something else really stupid so that we can all publicly condemn him on the strongest terms...
Sadly, I'm only half-joking! :O
The British haven't offered a reciprocal free movement deal with Australia because British voters hate freedom. (I have no idea whether Australia would accept if offered.)
While in the EU British people had freedoms that their fellow British voters wouldn't otherwise have let them have because it wasn't up to their fellow British voters.
I think it should be obvious from the Australia case that it's better if you can avoid giving the voters the ability to make judgements like this about your life, which they will use to take away your freedom. But if the WTO or the Commonwealth or some other international body also had requirements like this, and British voters grudgingly accepted it to be able to export their jam or whatever, that would be great. Sadly there isn't a bigger, more global version of the EU, although the EU was slowly growing to take in more countries.
For what it's worth, I loathe the burka just as I loathe the practice of circumcision (which I would ban for children except for proven medical reasons - once you are an adult you can make that informed choice). I'd also ban all faith schools and the teaching of any religion on schools beyond academic study of it (again let adults make choices about religion, don't force feed it to children). I realise I am in a tiny minority but those are nevertheless my views.
Re: Boris. Topping is right, The guy is a bully, and a grasping self-serving one at that. He knew what he was doing and such bad manners has no place in British political discourse.
Not my view but that of those that really do know.