It is a bet I've thought about but I can't really see a clear route for her. She does often seem to be the only grown-up in the room but she is not a member of either party. Ivanka would also, while we are on the subject, be the first Jewish president.
50/1 is far too short, even in a country with so many political dynasties.
[...]
The 2024 election is probably too soon for her. If she is serious about a political career - of which the evidence is limited - then 2028 would be a better bet. She'd also only be 43 at the 2024 election, which I think would make her the youngest Republican nominee ever.
I'd be wanting well into three figures before backing her to become POTUS by 2025.
(I also assume that 'by 2025' includes 'in 2025'. If it's 'before 1 Jan 2025', then it's a terrible bet and more like 500/1.
There is another way the bet could win. She could be his running mate in 2020. Still, 50/1 makes little appeal.
If she is his running mate on a successful ticket in 2020, there may not be a Presidency by 2024 - we may have the Royalty/Dictatorship turned down by Washington. ;!
I think it more likely that Trump will ask/demand change to allow a 3rd term. After all, that's what strongmen do all over the globe.
I do wonder why Putin didn't go down that route, but I suppose his alternate solution worked even better.
Putin did change the constitution to extend the terms from four to six years, and the Russian constitution only prevented/prevents more than two successive terms, unlike the US, which prevents more than two *in total* (or two-and-a-half, if a VP succeeds in the second half of a term). Hence why he's now on his fourth term (fifth if you count the short period between Yeltsin's resignation and the 2000 election).
Yes he changed things, but he didn't bother to change the third consecutive term bit, which he surely could have done.
Still letting those pesky Jews get under your skin I see.
Hah, yeah me, Wilsman and the Jewish Chronicle are all baiting Jewish people by claiming that some of them support Trump...
You still fantasising about running Muslims out of their homes?
I don't think you ever responded about the fake news of all those Jews living in Israel thousands of years ago.
You were the one worried about indigenous populations being forcibly displaced weren't you?
Who should we march on?
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
We are talking about the Jews in Israel thousands of years ago.
One indigenous people you don't seem that worked up about.
Oh yes. Because they were Jews.
I notice you skipped over my post.
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
Here it is again.
Or am I wrong and instead there something special about Muslims that doesn't allow them to fight back like non Muslims are allowed to... is it because you think them suffering is good thing?
Because this is something mainly noticed by people interested in politics. Most voters belong to the following groups:
1. Never heard of this controversy (most people) 2. Have heard of it, but don't really care - might cause some tutting for the sake of looking righteous, but quickly forgotten when deciding how to vote (most of the remainder) 3. Approve of Jew baiting 4. Disapprove of Jew baiting, but think it's nothing directly to do with JC and/or a political smear
If Average Joe Public really gave a toss about this problem then Labour wouldn't be doing so well in the polls.
Exactly. Given what’s been revealed, it’s remarkable that they are still polling around 40%. Some of the stories posted on here haven’t received that much prominence in the media: only two newspapers cover it tomorrow, The Times and the Telegraph and it’s not the main headline. It’s not on the BBC news website front page either. Though rather curiously when one of the stories did feature as the ‘big’ story on the website on Sunday (Ian Austin) it was hardly the most read story, even when it staring readers in the face. I definitely think the climate has moved to one where racism and xenophobia seem more tolerated, and that has allowed Labour to not really be punished in the polls for this.
If someone doesn't like racism and xenophobia they are hardly going to vote for the Tories are they....
Edit: I would imagine most BaME people don't think Labour are perfect on racism and xenophobia but there is a reason they vote Labour by 6-7 to 1 Tory.
Not to put to fine a point on it, is there any evidence that this is having a negative effect on Labour?
A lot of people on Twitter who don't support Labour, like Dan Hodges, are obviously pretending to care in that transparently vocal way he has so ineffectually mastered.
But is it *actually* harming Labour? Because if it is, where?
No it isn't, not outside some highly local areas it seems, but I take issue with your characterisation of Hodges and those like him - you have automatically assumed they are pretending to care simply because they don't like Labour (I presume you mean Corbynite Labour, since there are definitely Labour supporting people who have also expressed their deep concern). Why is it pretend care? No one is under any illusions that Hodges would not be attack Corbyn on something if this issue did not exist, of course he would, but it doesn't mean he is faking it.
It is quite possible for someone to be genuine on an issue even as it can be acknowledged that there are other reasons they dislike the person or subject they are attacking on this particular issue.
That's the same logic as some of the more rabid defenders who insist that because a lot of the people making criticisms clearly don't like Corbyn, that it is all nothing but an attack on Corbyn and ther's no evidence for it, even as Corbyn himself has said there is an issue here. Not to the extent people like Hodges say, and certainly he wouldn't agree with the criticisms of his response, but go down the route of saying people raising concerns are just pretending, and that's the endpoint.
Not to put to fine a point on it, is there any evidence that this is having a negative effect on Labour?
A lot of people on Twitter who don't support Labour, like Dan Hodges, are obviously pretending to care in that transparently vocal way he has so ineffectually mastered.
But is it *actually* harming Labour? Because if it is, where?
No, it’s not. I don’t buy that under any other leader they’d be 10-25 points ahead in the polls either. We live in an age where the last time a major political party got a significant majority in was 2005. The country is highly polarised, and as has been stated earlier on today: voters now increasingly vote according to their set of values as opposed to economic struggles/the competence of the government. Given that left liberals are outnumbered authoritarian populists and the liberal centre right, it’s something that Labour are in the game. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/trump-brexit-front-national-afd-branches-same-tree/ As we’ve seen across Europe, moderate social democracy is not doing too well.
Still letting those pesky Jews get under your skin I see.
Hah, yeah me, Wilsman and the Jewish Chronicle are all baiting Jewish people by claiming that some of them support Trump...
You still fantasising about running Muslims out of their homes?
I don't think you ever responded about the fake news of all those Jews living in Israel thousands of years ago.
You were the one worried about indigenous populations being forcibly displaced weren't you?
Who should we march on?
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
We are talking about the Jews in Israel thousands of years ago.
One indigenous people you don't seem that worked up about.
Oh yes. Because they were Jews.
I notice you skipped over my post.
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
Here it is again.
Or am I wrong and instead there something special about Muslims that doesn't allow them to fight back like non Muslims are allowed to... is it because you think them suffering is good thing?
700,000 Jews were driven from their homes across the Mid East in 1948.
What is equally disturbing as the antisemitism is this increase in conspiracy theories. On the tape, the clip starts with a claim that the Jews could easily be faking all this on social media.
All the alt-left Jezza sites love a good conspiracy theory, Grenfell, Salisbury etc.
Still letting those pesky Jews get under your skin I see.
Hah, yeah me, Wilsman and the Jewish Chronicle are all baiting Jewish people by claiming that some of them support Trump...
You still fantasising about running Muslims out of their homes?
I don't think you ever responded about the fake news of all those Jews living in Israel thousands of years ago.
You were the one worried about indigenous populations being forcibly displaced weren't you?
Who should we march on?
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
We are talking about the Jews in Israel thousands of years ago.
One indigenous people you don't seem that worked up about.
Oh yes. Because they were Jews.
I notice you skipped over my post.
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
Here it is again.
Or am I wrong and instead there something special about Muslims that doesn't allow them to fight back like non Muslims are allowed to... is it because you think them suffering is good thing?
700,000 Jews were driven from their homes across the Mid East in 1948.
Because this is something mainly noticed by people interested in politics. Most voters belong to the following groups:
1. Never heard of this controversy (most people) 2. Have heard of it, but don't really care - might cause some tutting for the sake of looking righteous, but quickly forgotten when deciding how to vote (most of the remainder) 3. Approve of Jew baiting 4. Disapprove of Jew baiting, but think it's nothing directly to do with JC and/or a political smear
If Average Joe Public really gave a toss about this problem then Labour wouldn't be doing so well in the polls.
Exactly. Given what’s been revealed, it’s remarkable that they are still polling around 40%. Some of the stories posted on here haven’t received that much prominence in the media: only two newspapers cover it tomorrow, The Times and the Telegraph and it’s not the main headline. It’s not on the BBC news website front page either. Though rather curiously when one of the stories did feature as the ‘big’ story on the website on Sunday (Ian Austin) it was hardly the most read story, even when it staring readers in the face. I definitely think the climate has moved to one where racism and xenophobia seem more tolerated, and that has allowed Labour to not really be punished in the polls for this.
If someone doesn't like racism and xenophobia they are hardly going to vote for the Tories are they....
Given how that Brexit campaign is seen on by the liberal left (and some on the liberal right) as well as the 2016 Mayoral Election there are many anti racists who won’t be inclined to vote Tory either.
Still letting those pesky Jews get under your skin I see.
Hah, yeah me, Wilsman and the Jewish Chronicle are all baiting Jewish people by claiming that some of them support Trump...
You still fantasising about running Muslims out of their homes?
I don't think you ever responded about the fake news of all those Jews living in Israel thousands of years ago.
You were the one worried about indigenous populations being forcibly displaced weren't you?
Who should we march on?
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
We are talking about the Jews in Israel thousands of years ago.
One indigenous people you don't seem that worked up about.
Oh yes. Because they were Jews.
I notice you skipped over my post.
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
Here it is again.
Or am I wrong and instead there something special about Muslims that doesn't allow them to fight back like non Muslims are allowed to... is it because you think them suffering is good thing?
You Jews always worrying about others. Got to hand it to you guys.
Because this is something mainly noticed by people interested in politics. Most voters belong to the following groups:
1. Never heard of this controversy (most people) 2. Have heard of it, but don't really care - might cause some tutting for the sake of looking righteous, but quickly forgotten when deciding how to vote (most of the remainder) 3. Approve of Jew baiting 4. Disapprove of Jew baiting, but think it's nothing directly to do with JC and/or a political smear
If Average Joe Public really gave a toss about this problem then Labour wouldn't be doing so well in the polls.
Exactly. Given what’s been revealed, it’s remarkable that they are still polling around 40%. Some of the stories posted on here haven’t received that much prominence in the media: only two newspapers cover it tomorrow, The Times and the Telegraph and it’s not the main headline. It’s not on the BBC news website front page either. Though rather curiously when one of the stories did feature as the ‘big’ story on the website on Sunday (Ian Austin) it was hardly the most read story, even when it staring readers in the face. I definitely think the climate has moved to one where racism and xenophobia seem more tolerated, and that has allowed Labour to not really be punished in the polls for this.
It is no longer news, and it is all priced in. Who didn't know a year ago, or 3 years ago, that Jezza was quite willing to share a platform with anti-Semitism and describe them as friends?
It’s always been talked about, but it seemed to really kick off in the spring of this year as a big story. But I think you’re right. At this stage, it’s priced in.
Still letting those pesky Jews get under your skin I see.
Hah, yeah me, Wilsman and the Jewish Chronicle are all baiting Jewish people by claiming that some of them support Trump...
You still fantasising about running Muslims out of their homes?
I don't think you ever responded about the fake news of all those Jews living in Israel thousands of years ago.
You were the one worried about indigenous populations being forcibly displaced weren't you?
Who should we march on?
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
We are talking about the Jews in Israel thousands of years ago.
One indigenous people you don't seem that worked up about.
Oh yes. Because they were Jews.
I notice you skipped over my post.
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
Here it is again.
Or am I wrong and instead there something special about Muslims that doesn't allow them to fight back like non Muslims are allowed to... is it because you think them suffering is good thing?
You Jews always worrying about others. Got to hand it to you guys.
You are Jewish, right?
I don't think you have to be Jewish to think Muslims getting driven from their homes and killed is a bad thing, just not being racist should do the trick.
Because this is something mainly noticed by people interested in politics. Most voters belong to the following groups:
1. Never heard of this controversy (most people) 2. Have heard of it, but don't really care - might cause some tutting for the sake of looking righteous, but quickly forgotten when deciding how to vote (most of the remainder) 3. Approve of Jew baiting 4. Disapprove of Jew baiting, but think it's nothing directly to do with JC and/or a political smear
If Average Joe Public really gave a toss about this problem then Labour wouldn't be doing so well in the polls.
Exactly. Given what’s been revealed, it’s remarkable that they are still polling around 40%. Some of the stories posted on here haven’t received that much prominence in the media: only two newspapers cover it tomorrow, The Times and the Telegraph and it’s not the main headline. It’s not on the BBC news website front page either. Though rather curiously when one of the stories did feature as the ‘big’ story on the website on Sunday (Ian Austin) it was hardly the most read story, even when it staring readers in the face. I definitely think the climate has moved to one where racism and xenophobia seem more tolerated, and that has allowed Labour to not really be punished in the polls for this.
If someone doesn't like racism and xenophobia they are hardly going to vote for the Tories are they....
Given how that Brexit campaign is seen on the liberal left alongside the 2016 Mayoral Election there are many anti racists who won’t be inclined to vote Tory either.
Then you have the Lib Dems who have had issues with anti-Semitism in the past.
Most anti racists will vote Labour as the party hasn't actually used racism to win votes in the same way as the Tories.
Because this is something mainly noticed by people interested in politics. Most voters belong to the following groups:
1. Never heard of this controversy (most people) 2. Have heard of it, but don't really care - might cause some tutting for the sake of looking righteous, but quickly forgotten when deciding how to vote (most of the remainder) 3. Approve of Jew baiting 4. Disapprove of Jew baiting, but think it's nothing directly to do with JC and/or a political smear
If Average Joe Public really gave a toss about this problem then Labour wouldn't be doing so well in the polls.
Exactly. Given what’s been revealed, it’s remarkable that they are still polling around 40%. Some of the stories posted on here haven’t received that much prominence in the media: only two newspapers cover it tomorrow, The Times and the Telegraph and it’s not the main headline. It’s not on the BBC news website front page either. Though rather curiously when one of the stories did feature as the ‘big’ story on the website on Sunday (Ian Austin) it was hardly the most read story, even when it staring readers in the face. I definitely think the climate has moved to one where racism and xenophobia seem more tolerated, and that has allowed Labour to not really be punished in the polls for this.
It is no longer news, and it is all priced in. Who didn't know a year ago, or 3 years ago, that Jezza was quite willing to share a platform with anti-Semitism and describe them as friends?
Well, it continues to be news to me. Three years ago I would have guessed if asked that true anti semitism was the preserve of a few Tory arseholes like that Burley chap, I would have given Corbyn the benefit of the doubt over the anti Israeli vs anti Semitic distinction and I would have thought that anti israelism was a minority interest of Jez n Seumas of no concern to rank and file labour. I don't think any of that now, and I am not impressed by the suggestion that it doesn't matter anyway because it is "priced in" to electoral outcomes.
Because this is something mainly noticed by people interested in politics. Most voters belong to the following groups:
1. Never heard of this controversy (most people) 2. Have heard of it, but don't really care - might cause some tutting for the sake of looking righteous, but quickly forgotten when deciding how to vote (most of the remainder) 3. Approve of Jew baiting 4. Disapprove of Jew baiting, but think it's nothing directly to do with JC and/or a political smear
If Average Joe Public really gave a toss about this problem then Labour wouldn't be doing so well in the polls.
Exactly. Given what’s been revealed, it’s remarkable that they are still polling around 40%. Some of the stories posted on here haven’t received that much prominence in the media: only two newspapers cover it tomorrow, The Times and the Telegraph and it’s not the main headline. It’s not on the BBC news website front page either. Though rather curiously when one of the stories did feature as the ‘big’ story on the website on Sunday (Ian Austin) it was hardly the most read story, even when it staring readers in the face. I definitely think the climate has moved to one where racism and xenophobia seem more tolerated, and that has allowed Labour to not really be punished in the polls for this.
It is no longer news, and it is all priced in. Who didn't know a year ago, or 3 years ago, that Jezza was quite willing to share a platform with anti-Semitism and describe them as friends?
Well, it continues to be news to me. Three years ago I would have guessed if asked that true anti semitism was the preserve of a few Tory arseholes like that Burley chap, I would have given Corbyn the benefit of the doubt over the anti Israeli vs anti Semitic distinction and I would have thought that anti israelism was a minority interest of Jez n Seumas of no concern to rank and file labour. I don't think any of that now, and I am not impressed by the suggestion that it doesn't matter anyway because it is "priced in" to electoral outcomes.
What is also interesting is that many of the new bright eyed young things that think the sun shines out of Jezza's arse do their nut if there is even the slightest hint of non-PC behaviour on any other topic e.g. transphobia...but all this anti-Jewish stuff doesn't appear to shake their faith in the Supreme leader.
It is a bet I've thought about but I can't really see a clear route for her. She does often seem to be the only grown-up in the room but she is not a member of either party. Ivanka would also, while we are on the subject, be the first Jewish president.
50/1 is far too short, even in a country with so many political dynasties.
[...]
The 2024 election is probably too soon for her. If she is serious about a political career - of which the evidence is limited - then 2028 would be a better bet. She'd also only be 43 at the 2024 election, which I think would make her the youngest Republican nominee ever.
I'd be wanting well into three figures before backing her to become POTUS by 2025.
(I also assume that 'by 2025' includes 'in 2025'. If it's 'before 1 Jan 2025', then it's a terrible bet and more like 500/1.
There is another way the bet could win. She could be his running mate in 2020. Still, 50/1 makes little appeal.
If she is his running mate on a successful ticket in 2020, there may not be a Presidency by 2024 - we may have the Royalty/Dictatorship turned down by Washington. ;!
I think it more likely that Trump will ask/demand change to allow a 3rd term. After all, that's what strongmen do all over the globe.
I do wonder why Putin didn't go down that route, but I suppose his alternate solution worked even better.
Putin did change the constitution to extend the terms from four to six years, and the Russian constitution only prevented/prevents more than two successive terms, unlike the US, which prevents more than two *in total* (or two-and-a-half, if a VP succeeds in the second half of a term). Hence why he's now on his fourth term (fifth if you count the short period between Yeltsin's resignation and the 2000 election).
Yes he changed things, but he didn't bother to change the third consecutive term bit, which he surely could have done.
Instead he changed the relative powers of the Premier and the President so that whichever role he was in was the actual power.
What is also interesting is that many of the new bright eyed young things that think the sun shines out of Jezza's arse do their nut if there is even the slightest hint of non-PC behaviour on any other topic e.g. transphobia...but all this anti-Jewish stuff doesn't appear to shake their faith in the Supreme leader.
Just before the debacle of the last GE PB tories thought JC's proclivity for a united Ireland was the cheat code to destroying him. It wasn't and neither are his anti-Semitic larks now. As others have observed it probably helps him more than it hurts him.
What is also interesting is that many of the new bright eyed young things that think the sun shines out of Jezza's arse do their nut if there is even the slightest hint of non-PC behaviour on any other topic e.g. transphobia...but all this anti-Jewish stuff doesn't appear to shake their faith in the Supreme leader.
Just before the debacle of the last GE PB tories thought JC's proclivity for a united Ireland was the cheat code to destroying him. It wasn't and neither are his anti-Semitic larks now. As others have observed it probably helps him more than it hurts him.
They aren't "larks" and their importance transcends party politics.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
He certainly illustrates the general principle that stupid people are by and large too stupid to realise how stupid they are.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
Okay give me the numbers on anti-semitic incidents proven from Labour members. It isn't even a whole percentage point of the overall membership, it isn't even a tenth of a percentage point.
The problem is most of the anti-Semites are Tories, so there aren't many left over for Labour to have.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
Okay give me the numbers on anti-semitic incidents proven from Labour members. It isn't even a whole percentage point of the overall membership, it isn't even a tenth of a percentage point.
The problem is most of the anti-Semites are Tories, so there aren't many left over for Labour to have.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
He certainly illustrates the general principle that stupid people are by and large too stupid to realise how stupid they are.
He (or I to be exact) also demonstrates the principle that things should be based on evidence, which I realise can be irritating when you want to spread false propaganda.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
Okay give me the numbers on anti-semitic incidents proven from Labour members. It isn't even a whole percentage point of the overall membership, it isn't even a tenth of a percentage point.
The problem is most of the anti-Semites are Tories, so there aren't many left over for Labour to have.
You are sounding desperate this evening...
That isn't based on my personal beliefs, or even propaganda from right wing newspapers but representative polling.
_____________________________________ In 2015, 22% of Labour voters agreed with the statement that ‘Jews chase money more than other people’, whilst in 2017 the number of Labour voters agreeing with the statement had declined to 14%.
These results compare with 31% of Conservative voters who agreed with the statement that ‘Jews chase money more than other people’ in 2015, whilst in 2017 this had declined slightly to 27% who still agreed with the statement. __________________________________
There is more, by every measure the Tories scored worse.
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
"the occasional actual legitimate one" - you really are on astroturf overtime this evening.
Okay give me the numbers on anti-semitic incidents proven from Labour members. It isn't even a whole percentage point of the overall membership, it isn't even a tenth of a percentage point.
The problem is most of the anti-Semites are Tories, so there aren't many left over for Labour to have.
You are sounding desperate this evening...
That isn't based on my personal beliefs, or even propaganda from right wing newspapers but representative polling.
Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. The Tories aren't the ones that the Jewish community are having to have meeting with about this, or having had to suspend / discipline leading MPs and senior figures, etc etc etc. And while this all goes on Jezza sits in meetings with leading Jews and just shrugs, while also refusing to fully accept and incorporate the internationally accepted definition on antisemitism.
But it is all just right wing rags pushing Fake News. ok.
That isn't based on my personal beliefs, or even propaganda from right wing newspapers but representative polling.
_____________________________________ In 2015, 22% of Labour voters agreed with the statement that ‘Jews chase money more than other people’, whilst in 2017 the number of Labour voters agreeing with the statement had declined to 14%.
These results compare with 31% of Conservative voters who agreed with the statement that ‘Jews chase money more than other people’ in 2015, whilst in 2017 this had declined slightly to 27% who still agreed with the statement. __________________________________
There is more, by every measure the Tories scored worse.
Edit: also the reports show the drop in anti-semitism within Labour under Corbyn.
I think the moral of the story is don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.
1) as a member of a party with a stated purpose of pushing for equality and protecting the needy and the oppressed, you think being better that the Tories is the bar you're aiming for? 2) read Gnasherjew or LabourAgainstAS on twitter for a nauseating list of antisemitic acts by Corbyn supporters, Labour Councillors, Labour MPs, NEC members, and the Magic Grandpa himself. Oh, and Seamus. And all very well documented and 'evidenced'. 3) read David Schneider on twitter, a passionate Labour supporter (and Jew) who remains a supporter of JC but despairs at those who claim a problem doesn't exist.
I listened to the tape. I'm not confused one little bit - you appear to be - or I hope you are for your sake.
He literally says (and I transcribe): "Some of these people in the Jewish community support Trump, they're Trump fanatics. So I'm not going to be lectured to by Trump fanatics making up false information without any evidence at all. So I think we should ask the 70 rabbis where is your evidence?"
Now, if you want to tie yourself in knots, there probably are Jews that support Trump. Although as I said, they're rare given Jews' understandable aversion to anyone with a whiff of the fascist about them. If you look hard enough you can find a few members of any community who support anything. Using that as a general smear to cast aspersions on rabbis from across the Jewish community and those who've made complaints as "making up false information" due to some hidden Trumpian agenda (especially when many are on record as despising the great orange halfwit) is clearly anti-Semitic, as I point out, for the same reason accusing a group of Muslims reasonably setting out their complaints racism they've faced of acting in bad faith because some Muslims happen to support very bad people.
It's so obviously racist I can't believe you're trying to argue otherwise. Corbyn really has blackenned hearts and maddened heads. It's just so poisonous.
Is it racist?
It seems to me that he’s criticising the rabbis accusing him by implying they are Trump supporters. That’s clearly a patheticly obvious swerve to try and avoid answering their challenge but I’m not sure it’s intrinsically racist?
Yes. Because it's taking a group of people who have disparate views on everything, finding something negative you can say about one or some of their number (in this case being 'Trump fanatics') and attempting to generalise about the group from that with no evidence whatsoever it's true, other than they share the same ethnicity as those you're making the negative claim about. Ignorance and inability to reason could perhaps provide a degree of mitigation - if he's incredibly thick - but it's still racist.
Maybe it’s a terminology thing. It’s certainly stereotyping based on race, but I would prefer to restrict “racist” to more serious incidents to avoid diluting the impact of the word
1) as a member of a party with a stated purpose of pushing for equality and protecting the needy and the oppressed, you think being better that the Tories is the bar you're aiming for? 2) read Gnasherjew or LabourAgainstAS on twitter for a nauseating list of antisemitic acts by Corbyn supporters, Labour Councillors, Labour MPs, NEC members, and the Magic Grandpa himself. Oh, and Seamus. And all very well documented and 'evidenced'. 3) read David Schneider on twitter, a passionate Labour supporter (and Jew) who remains a supporter of JC but despairs at those who claim a problem doesn't exist.
1) Well, better than the Tories could be acceptable, only just better than the Tories isn't, slightly dependent on how bad the Tories are. On agreeing with one anti-Semitic statement it was 40% for the Conservatives and 32% for Labour so that is a decent difference, we are 4/5 as anti-Semitic as the Tories. Although obviously we should aim for quite a bit better.
2) I read both, there is a decent bit of conflation between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, one of the people who runs LAAS and isn't Jewish likes to go around and shout at Jewish people for supporting Corbyn, she's a bit of a nutter. There is some genuine stuff on there as well and that is shocking but quite often it isn't even from Labour members, they either heavily imply it is or just leave the implication there. It is quite clever, regularly complain about Labour and anti-Semitism then you post any anti-Semitism you find and without even lying and saying Labour are responsible you can get Labour blamed. Any anti-Semitism that is from Labour members though should see them punished, no problem with that whatsoever.
3) I do believe the problem exists, it really does. Racism (which is what I consider anti-Semitism) is everywhere as I wrote in a post the other day. Whether it exists or not is a different argument to the level of it.
I follow David on twitter, actually shared that exact piece. I use him and a few other Jewish people as my guide when it comes to anti-Semitism. If I disagree with them then I am likely to be in the wrong.
One of the reasons the web encourages trolls is that people choose to pointlessly engage with the most shocking statements made rather than people who might be interested in a more fruitful debate.
Don't Feed The Trolls.
Before Brexit, it was very common on PB to have some really interesting discussions.
There is no one left to chat to about shoes since Plato got banned. Even cooking feels like a no-no
It is Brexit, Brexit, Brexit....
As it happens, shoes are a very controversial subject chez Meeks. When we were in the process of shifting some of our clothes from London to our new house, my secret shoe stash was discovered. There were scenes.
You've entirely moved out of London?!
No. Actually tonight I’m in the London flat. But selling it is high on the agenda now.
FPT - probably a good time to get out of the London market. Anecdotally the discount rate is increasing. Asking prices are stubbornly high but buyers are becoming more brazen with asking for discounts. It's definitely a buyer's market in London.
I'm buying a flat in London for about 40% less than the initial asking price.
Same discount as I got in California - and much less than the 72% my Dad got when he bought in Chelsea.
Comments
I'm sure if a large group of Muslims came to Britain and started killing us and driving us from our homes you'd be sat there calmly saying 'well if we really want to stop them we should go to the USA first and drive out the Americans and give all the land back to the Native americans, then maybe we can deal with the current situation, it would be hypocritical otherwise'
Here it is again.
Or am I wrong and instead there something special about Muslims that doesn't allow them to fight back like non Muslims are allowed to... is it because you think them suffering is good thing?
Edit: I would imagine most BaME people don't think Labour are perfect on racism and xenophobia but there is a reason they vote Labour by 6-7 to 1 Tory.
It is quite possible for someone to be genuine on an issue even as it can be acknowledged that there are other reasons they dislike the person or subject they are attacking on this particular issue.
That's the same logic as some of the more rabid defenders who insist that because a lot of the people making criticisms clearly don't like Corbyn, that it is all nothing but an attack on Corbyn and ther's no evidence for it, even as Corbyn himself has said there is an issue here. Not to the extent people like Hodges say, and certainly he wouldn't agree with the criticisms of his response, but go down the route of saying people raising concerns are just pretending, and that's the endpoint.
As we’ve seen across Europe, moderate social democracy is not doing too well.
All the alt-left Jezza sites love a good conspiracy theory, Grenfell, Salisbury etc.
You are Jewish, right?
I fear my party could be out of power for decades: Former MP AUSTIN MITCHELL reveals his concerns over Labour's new age of intolerance
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6008627/AUSTIN-MITCHELL-reveals-concerns-Labours-new-age-intolerance.html
Most anti racists will vote Labour as the party hasn't actually used racism to win votes in the same way as the Tories.
https://twitter.com/Socialist_Chris/status/1023912066892144640
One way to cover up your Islamophobia problem I guess, combined with false anti-Semitism allegations and the occasional actual legitimate one and it is no wonder the right wing have been able to create a narrative about Labour and Corbyn being anti-Semitic. Luckily it looks like the younger generation are a bit smarter than their elders at figuring out the real from the fake.
The problem is most of the anti-Semites are Tories, so there aren't many left over for Labour to have.
_____________________________________
In 2015, 22% of Labour voters agreed with the statement that ‘Jews chase money more than other people’, whilst in 2017 the number of Labour voters agreeing with the statement had declined to 14%.
These results compare with 31% of Conservative voters who agreed with the statement that ‘Jews chase money more than other people’ in 2015, whilst in 2017 this had declined slightly to 27% who still agreed with the statement.
__________________________________
There is more, by every measure the Tories scored worse.
2015
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/921pn4p2fh/CampaignAgainstAntisemitismResults_MergedFile_W.pdf
2017
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bs0i5dmt7s/CampaignAgainstAntisemitismResults_170803_JewishOpinions.pdf
Desperate for factual accuracy maybe...
Edit: also the reports show the drop in anti-semitism within Labour under Corbyn.
I think the moral of the story is don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.
But it is all just right wing rags pushing Fake News. ok.
2) read Gnasherjew or LabourAgainstAS on twitter for a nauseating list of antisemitic acts by Corbyn supporters, Labour Councillors, Labour MPs, NEC members, and the Magic Grandpa himself. Oh, and Seamus. And all very well documented and 'evidenced'.
3) read David Schneider on twitter, a passionate Labour supporter (and Jew) who remains a supporter of JC but despairs at those who claim a problem doesn't exist.
This is a good thread (not just the tweet below, the ongoing thread). This is a supporter of Corbynism* and a life-long lefty.
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/993149519587086336
* Except the AS aspects, natch.
Now for some news from 21st century Britain
2) I read both, there is a decent bit of conflation between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, one of the people who runs LAAS and isn't Jewish likes to go around and shout at Jewish people for supporting Corbyn, she's a bit of a nutter. There is some genuine stuff on there as well and that is shocking but quite often it isn't even from Labour members, they either heavily imply it is or just leave the implication there. It is quite clever, regularly complain about Labour and anti-Semitism then you post any anti-Semitism you find and without even lying and saying Labour are responsible you can get Labour blamed. Any anti-Semitism that is from Labour members though should see them punished, no problem with that whatsoever.
3) I do believe the problem exists, it really does. Racism (which is what I consider anti-Semitism) is everywhere as I wrote in a post the other day. Whether it exists or not is a different argument to the level of it.
I follow David on twitter, actually shared that exact piece. I use him and a few other Jewish people as my guide when it comes to anti-Semitism. If I disagree with them then I am likely to be in the wrong.
Situation specific no doubt