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Second MP under investigation in Labour party antisemitism row https://t.co/C0c3V0uiY4

Read the full story here

asjohnstone

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

RobD

The purging will continue until morale improves...

TheJezziah

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

What seems to play best in both communities is the impression that the other party is prejudiced against them.

If what I heard is what he said then Ian Austin definitely deserves some kind of charge even if it is only to the extent of a warning.

rcs1000

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

TheJezziah

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

MikeSmithson

TheJezziah said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

What seems to play best in both communities is the impression that the other party is prejudiced against them.

If what I heard is what he said then Ian Austin definitely deserves some kind of charge even if it is only to the extent of a warning.

RobD said:

The purging will continue until morale improves...

Like it.

JohnLoony

Has the Labour Party responded to Nexhmije's letter? The deadline was 4pm on Wednesday 25th July.

Dura_Ace

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

The UK is now 5% muslim and 0.5% jewish so it's a net electoral positive for JC. He knows exactly what he's doing...

DecrepitJohnL

Clearly this is antisemitic. Has anyone suggested it is not? The tweet in the OP describes its author as a supporter rather than member. The Twitter thread links back to Facebook where the comments are unanimous in condemnation.

Charles

Dura_Ace said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

The UK is now 5% muslim and 0.5% jewish so it's a net electoral positive for JC. He knows exactly what he's doing...

Not necessarily - it depends on concentration of voters, whether seats are marginal or not (eg a vote in Barnet may be more valuable than, say, Tower Hamlets) and whether there is any spillover effect on other voters

DecrepitJohnL

Btw, is Ian Austin Jewish as described in the headline? His adoptive parents were, but Judaism is passed via the birth mother and not by adoption. He might be, I don't know, but one does not need to be Jewish to be appalled and offended by antisemitism.

Foxy

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

TheJezziah

DecrepitJohnL said:

Btw, is Ian Austin Jewish as described in the headline? His adoptive parents were, but Judaism is passed via the birth mother and not by adoption. He might be, I don't know, but one does not need to be Jewish to be appalled and offended by antisemitism.

The headlines I've seen described him as adopted by Jewish parents rather than just saying Jewish... I guess you could say he isn't Jewish by actual genetic lineage, he is though by adopted heritage (I like to think if you choose to make your adopted parents as if your real parents) if he chooses, and then whether he is actual religiously Jewish?

Going by the headlines I've seen I'm guessing he isn't thought of as Jewish although it is the first time I've seen it brought up (maybe earlier today) regarding a Jewish link with him so I'm guessing.

Charles

DecrepitJohnL said:

Btw, is Ian Austin Jewish as described in the headline? His adoptive parents were, but Judaism is passed via the birth mother and not by adoption. He might be, I don't know, but one does not need to be Jewish to be appalled and offended by antisemitism.

I’ve just read the guardian article

The most disturbing thing about it is theLabour Party spokesman’s defence of Corbyn’s comments.

They conflated an out and out terrorist attack with a error made in the heat of battle and which Israel acknowledged to justify Corbyn’s claim that Israel may have launched an unprovoked asssult on innocent Egyptians.

FFS Labour. Wake the fuck up.

TheJezziah

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

I was half tempted to make a sarcastic post about how the Conservatives were promoting Islamophobia to win the Jewish vote to be honest. I did assume it wouldn't go down as well as the more serious suggestions the other way.

Which when added to the ravings of SeanT, the popularity of people like Tommy Robinson and the negative use of Muslims to win the Brexit referendum vote helps explain why the Conservatives have concluded they haven't got an Islamophobia problem but a vote winner... outside of maybe the Muslim community itself.

MTimT

The tweet referenced is almost bad enough to be a spoof. Are we sure it's not from a Russian troll farm?

rcs1000

Charles said:

Dura_Ace said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

The UK is now 5% muslim and 0.5% jewish so it's a net electoral positive for JC. He knows exactly what he's doing...

Not necessarily - it depends on concentration of voters, whether seats are marginal or not (eg a vote in Barnet may be more valuable than, say, Tower Hamlets) and whether there is any spillover effect on other voters

+1

MTimT

@ rcs1000 Have you found any good bakeries for bread yet? How are you enjoying LA?

JosiasJessop

It's a disgusting tweet.

Everyone's missed the important question so far: why is the background filled with pink unicorns?

TheJezziah

MTimT said:

The tweet referenced is almost bad enough to be a spoof. Are we sure it's not from a Russian troll farm?

Following it back to Facebook like Decrepit did and reading the comments seem to indicate that the people who did have him as a mutual friend on facebook didn't know who he was, someone mentioned about his about section being blank (couldn't search the guy without logging in myself) and the one person who mentioned removing him as a friend didn't say it in a very personal way like you would with somebody you know in real life (or at least to my eyes) someone else mentioned about it possibly not being his real name though they looked like they were guessing.

So plausibly a troll but impossible to know really.

rcs1000

MTimT said:

@ rcs1000 Have you found any good bakeries for bread yet? How are you enjoying LA?

Well, I'm currently in Hawaii (Aloha!).

Generally, I love it. The ocean, the mountains, the weather are all great.

MTimT

JosiasJessop said:

It's a disgusting tweet.

Everyone's missed the important question so far: why is the background filled with pink unicorns?

My attention went immediately to the push-me pull-me.

rcs1000

rcs1000 said:

MTimT said:

@ rcs1000 Have you found any good bakeries for bread yet? How are you enjoying LA?

Well, I'm currently in Hawaii (Aloha!).

Generally, I love it. The ocean, the mountains, the weather are all great.

Bread remains an issue. I have found a good - but incredibly expensive - deli, which sells decent baguettes. The price, however, would make you blush.

MTimT

rcs1000 said:

MTimT said:

@ rcs1000 Have you found any good bakeries for bread yet? How are you enjoying LA?

Well, I'm currently in Hawaii (Aloha!).

Generally, I love it. The ocean, the mountains, the weather are all great.

Jealous. Never been (well, outside the airport, that is).

tlg86

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

MarqueeMark

2018: the Conservative Party tears itself apart over how to implement the biggest political change since World War 2.

2018: the Labour Party tears itself apart over how to implement the biggest atrocity of World War 2.

JosiasJessop

tlg86 said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

"But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse."

Is it clear? On what basis?

tlg86

JosiasJessop said:

tlg86 said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

"But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse."

Is it clear? On what basis?

The two examples I cited. And Tower Hamlets voting for Lutfur Rahman. I did qualify with the statement that it might need a personality at the local level, so perhaps the threat is local rather than national.

Foxy

tlg86 said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

The Tory press and party were the same over Ed Miliband, and a bit more recently as I recall.

JosiasJessop

tlg86 said:

JosiasJessop said:

tlg86 said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

"But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse."

Is it clear? On what basis?

The two examples I cited. And Tower Hamlets voting for Lutfur Rahman. I did qualify with the statement that it might need a personality at the local level, so perhaps the threat is local rather than national.

There's a long way from those example to the claim that the 'Muslim vote can be delivered en masse', which implies a national perspective, not a local one.

TheJezziah

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

The Tory press and party were the same over Ed Miliband, and a bit more recently as I recall.

Giving the much talked about on here Muslim instinct to vote for anti-Semitism I assume Labours Muslim vote crashed and the Conservatives took the majority of them....

tlg86

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

Bethnal Green and Bow. Bradford West. Perhaps only George Galloway can win such seats. But it is clear that the Muslim vote can be delivered en masse.

Of course, much like the SNP, they'd likely back Labour in a hung parliament. But better to have control of the MPs directly.

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Well New Labour weren't averse to this sort of thing. They certainly wanted to make sure people knew about the Jewish heritage of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin.

The Tory press and party were the same over Ed Miliband, and a bit more recently as I recall.

Bacon sandwich? I think that was more about showing the guy looking like a numpty. I think the press did the same with May eating some chips.

The Mail's raking over Ralph Miliband, was, I agree, disgraceful.

Sandpit

My bet on England hosting the 2022 World Cup looking a little more likely to come off this morning.

JosiasJessop

People vote for all sorts of reasons. On here, we tend to be political anoraks who, if we're not tribal members of a political club, examine politics immensely closely and vote accordingly.

The vest majority of the public are not like us. Talking to 'normal' people, voting often tends to be somewhat less rational or evidence-based.

You will have people who vote for a party because they always have like their fathers and forefathers, who vote a way because they are told so by their husbands, because they like or dislike the candidate's gender, because their friend are voting that way, because of that new housing development a rumour says might be built three villages away, because a newspaper tells them to, because it is a Thursday, etc ...

Masses of people don't have the time or inclination to do the sort of reading-up that we do on here into the political situation, and are much more likely to look at evidence that backs up their current biases and views.

Hence why spin and fake news have become so important.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

That's bloody alarming.

Morris_Dancer

F1: didn't put up the pre-race article yesterday because I couldn't get a bet on. So, that'll be coming probably this morning.

In the meantime, I found this tweet which gamblers on the US elections (presidential) might like:
https://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/1023244322504892417

Edited extra bit: Perez has revealed that if he hadn't taken the administration step another creditor would have likely seen the team immediately shut down, so he took the alternative approach to keep things running.

oxfordsimon

Corbyn has allowed himself to be painted into a corner. If he had quickly adopted all the examples in the hours after the initial publication of the draft policy, he could have saved the sutuasitu. But he didn't. He stuck by a position and refused to countenance chsmge.

Then he allowed investigations into Margaret Hodge. The optics of that are awful.

Now we get even more investigations.

When viewed against the backgrounf of the investigations into Livingstone et al, it looks even worse.

But now any shift from the entrenched position will be a major, major climb down. And almost certainly not improve perceptions of Corbyn on this issue.

I don't see his ''out' on this one.

Sandpit

Morris_Dancer said:

F1: didn't put up the pre-race article yesterday because I couldn't get a bet on. So, that'll be coming probably this morning.

In the meantime, I found this tweet which gamblers on the US elections (presidential) might like:
tps://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/1023244322504892417

Edited extra bit: Perez has revealed that if he hadn't taken the administration step another creditor would have likely seen the team immediately shut down, so he took the alternative approach to keep things running.

Perez is basically a stalking horse for Mercedes, who didn’t want to be seen as the ones making the decision.

The two Indians who owned the team are in a whole load of personal trouble and haven’t been paying the bills, while refusing to sell up for anything less than their wild over-estimate of the value of the team.

The always excellent Joe Saward has a very good piece on the trials and tribulations of Force India. https://www.motorsportweek.com/joeblogsf1/id/00281

It’s unlikely the team will fold, there’s plenty of interest now that the Indians’ valuation doesn’t need to be met.

JosiasJessop

Off-topic:

There are rumours that Grayling may be about to uncancel the not-not-not-cancelled TransPennine Electrification.

This has been rather a farce for over a decade now. If it does go ahead, let's' hope they've learnt the lessons from the messes on the GW and Edinburgh-Glasgow schemes.

rkrkrk

Sort of on topic - got an email about voting on candidates to Labours NEC recently.
Never heard of most of them, but found the tone of some of their pitches a bit depressing. "Vote for me because I am implacably opposed to an alternative faction within Labour" didn't give me a great deal of hope for reduced in-party squabbling....

AlastairMeeks

You wouldn’t have to go far to find mad Conservative anti-Semitic supporters. The Conservative party has not, however, tied itself in knots about the exact dividing line between vehement criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism so there’s no resonance when such examples emerge.

The investigations into Margaret Hodge and Ian Austin display either a very thin-skinned approach to criticism or a conscious attempt to make membership of the party uncomfortable for the leadership’s most strident critics. Because it looks so awful I’m inclined to the latter - the external appearance must have been considered before action was taken.

daodao

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

It hardly matters what the effect is in areas with significant Jewish populations, as they are very few. What matters more is that the general public will take an unfavourable view of this whipping up of the unjustified charge that Labour is antisemitic by Jews and Jewish organisations, and it is likely to lead to a backlash against them. Special pleading by a minority group is likely to increase hostility towards that group, and does not assist their long-term future.

It is true that the current Labour leadership is unsympathetic towards Israel, but that is not surprising in those on the left of politics, given that it is a right radical nationalist state. If Labour was actually antisemitic, i.e. hostile to Jews just because of their origin, it would not be introducing a policy to tackle antisemitism, and would not have been so welcoming to people like Jon Lansman (founder of Momentum) or Ed Miliband.

JackW

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Political parties acting "a bit stupid" .... well there's a rarity !!

Substitute "black" for "Jewish" and we have a card from any extreme right wing nut job playbook.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1023450792357969920

https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1023451536930824192

JosiasJessop

daodao said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

It hardly matters what the effect is in areas with significant Jewish populations, as they are very few. What matters more is that the general public will take an unfavourable view of this whipping up of the unjustified charge that Labour is antisemitic by Jews and Jewish organisations, and it is likely to lead to a backlash against them. Special pleading by a minority group is likely to increase hostility towards that group, and does not assist their long-term future.

It is true that the current Labour leadership is unsympathetic towards Israel, but that is not surprising in those on the left of politics, given that it is a right radical nationalist state. If Labour was actually antisemitic, i.e. hostile to Jews just because of their origin, it would not be introducing a policy to tackle antisemitism, and would not have been so welcoming to people like Jon Lansman (founder of Momentum) or Ed Miliband.

That assumes that the 'general public' will assume that it is 'whipped up' and an 'unjustified charge'.

oxfordsimon

daodao said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

It hardly matters what the effect is in areas with significant Jewish populations, as they are very few. What matters more is that the general public will take an unfavourable view of this whipping up of the unjustified charge that Labour is antisemitic by Jews and Jewish organisations, and it is likely to lead to a backlash against them. Special pleading by a minority group is likely to increase hostility towards that group, and does not assist their long-term future.

It is true that the current Labour leadership is unsympathetic towards Israel, but that is not surprising in those on the left of politics, given that it is a right radical nationalist state. If Labour was actually antisemitic, i.e. hostile to Jews just because of their origin, it would not be introducing a policy to tackle antisemitism, and would not have been so welcoming to people like Jon Lansman (founder of Momentum) or Ed Miliband.

That really does sound like victim blaming to me.

The charge is sticking because there is some truth at the core of it. There has been a failure to act, to acknowledge fault, to deal appropriately and quickly with genuine problems.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1023445517773234177

JosiasJessop

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1023450792357969920

https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1023451536930824192

As much as anything else, the idea that Muslims wouldn't attack another Muslim during Ramadan is rather... interesting.

Peter_the_Punter

It's hard for me to take seriously claims that the Labour Party is anti-semitic for a number of reason. It's an absurd posture for any serious Party but for one with such strong historic links to the Jews the mere suggestion jars.

So why is it tying itself in knots, as Alastair puts it? His two suggestions are perfectly plausible. I would suggest a third. It is highly selective in the oppressors it chooses to oppose. Netanyahu's Israel is fair game. The ANC and Mynamar's NLD are not. I seem to recall Robert Mugabe got a bit of a pass too.

I suspect this reflects nothing more than a bit of unattractive posturing that pleases the more 'right-on' members but it cannot be justified, and is of course electorally harmful, as the current Hodge/Austin publicity illustrates.

Jonathan

Sad and scary. Sigh. British politics is a mess. The current party structure coupled with social media seems to enable, amplify and reward those with extreme or downright appalling views. Active party politics seems to be designed for odd balls.

Sandpit

Jonathan said:

Sad and scary. Sigh. British politics is a mess. The current party structure coupled with social media seems to enable, amplify and reward those with extreme or downright appalling views. Active party politics seems to be designed for odd balls.

Quite. Even more worrying is where the next generation of politicians are going to come from? I can’t see many intelligent people wanting to put their families through the constant abuse and threats that now seem to have become a normal part of political discourse.

DecrepitJohnL

Deleted. Replied to wrong comment.

CD13

May called her own party stupid. but that's a good word for Labour. However, they can't stop themselves. In their game of victimhood, the Jews come very low so for some, their instinctive reaction is anger.

It may not be a common trait in Labour, but their nit-picking from the top makes them look hypocritical. An unnecessary own-goal. Or is it merely Jezza sticking to his principles?

Jonathan

The tribalism and leader personality cults in political parties is the heart of the problem. Cyclefree had it right the other day. When you're convinced that your tribe is right, or worse still, righteous, there is seemingly no limit on the things you are justified to say or do.

Morris_Dancer

Betting Post

F1: pre-race tosh here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/hungary-pre-race-2018.html

For proper bets, I've backed Bottas to lead lap 1 at 7.5 and Verstappen to be winner (each way) without Hamilton/Vettel at 6.5.

For a silly, tiny stakes bet, I've backed Sainz each way to win at 751, just in case the forecast is bollocks again and half the field ends up sliding off the track.

On the proper bets, Bottas is longer odds to lead lap 1 than the Ferraris. Which is daft. He can't deliberately throw the start, and if Hamilton has a small error the Finn will, all else being equal, go into the lead.

The Red Bull seems tasty in the dry, the Mercedes chews up its tyres, the rear gunners may be sacrificed for the title contenders, and there's not a unrealistic possibility of some of the top four colliding immediately. Of all that, Verstappen will be the beneficiary.

JosiasJessop

Peter_the_Punter said:

It's hard for me to take seriously claims that the Labour Party is anti-semitic for a number of reason. It's an absurd posture for any serious Party but for one with such strong historic links to the Jews the mere suggestion jars.

So why is it tying itself in knots, as Alastair puts it? His two suggestions are perfectly plausible. I would suggest a third. It is highly selective in the oppressors it chooses to oppose. Netanyahu's Israel is fair game. The ANC and Mynamar's NLD are not. I seem to recall Robert Mugabe got a bit of a pass too.

I suspect this reflects nothing more than a bit of unattractive posturing that please the more 'right-on' members but it is fundamentally unjustifiable, and of course electorally harmful, as the current Hodge/Austin publicity illustrates.

IMV the issue is that Corbyn and his fellow travellers have always been on the side of the oppressed against the oppressors. That is a defining struggle for them.

In the UK, racism has been a clear example of oppression, and therefore they chose anti-Racism as a position. Which is absolutely fair enough IMO.

But in their minds, the oppressors are 'the rich', and the oppressed are 'the poor'.

However (and stereotyping slightly here), Jews tend to be richer and more successful than many other minority groups. Therefore you can't really be racist against Jews, because they're rich and powerful, and therefore on the side of the oppressors.

This is exactly why a series of Labour MPs had to stand up in parliament and say: "anti-semitism is racism." - quite a ridiculous situation to have got into.

From what I've read and seen, I'd class Corbyn as a 'passive' anti-Semite. He'd never dream of himself as being one, but he's all too willing to fall into classic anti-Semitic thinking. Because he can't be racist because he's been anti-racist all his life ...

As you say, the problems with this sort of thinking extends outside the UK: groups that are 'oppressed' in this country might be the 'oppressors' in other countries.

SquareRoot

Jonathan said:

The tribalism and leader personality cults in political parties is the heart of the problem. Cyclefree had it right the other day. When you're convinced that your tribe is right, or worse still, righteous, there is seemingly no limit on the things you are justified to say or do.

We re-learned that lesson from the era of Gordon Brown.

IanB2

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

The muslim vote is (and always has been) heavily Labour, and Muslims are (rightly) assuming positions of influence within the party. It's simplistic (and wrong) to suggest Labour has this problem as a result of an electoral calculation, or that the ordinary muslim voter is going to be heavily swayed in this way. Labour's world view does however tend to lump people into "interest groups" and in foreign policy it will be under pressure to adapt its world view and policy priorities accordingly, particularly in Corybn's London back yard where the party will have many influential muslim members.

old_labour

Dan Hodges in the Mail on Sunday, reckons there is a going to be a breakaway by a group of Labour MPs in the PLP.

IanB2

SquareRoot said:

Jonathan said:

The tribalism and leader personality cults in political parties is the heart of the problem. Cyclefree had it right the other day. When you're convinced that your tribe is right, or worse still, righteous, there is seemingly no limit on the things you are justified to say or do.

We re-learned that lesson from the era of Gordon Brown.

More striking and convincing examples from history come to mind.

Peter_the_Punter

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Josias.

The only point I would like to make in response is that it is important to distinguish between The Jews and The State of Israel. The latter appears to be perceived by many on the left as a legitimate Bogeyman - the former definitely not.

Hamas, the PLO and the like are of course not Bogeymen at all, but Oppressed Minorities. Oi vey.

TheJezziah

JackW said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Political parties acting "a bit stupid" .... well there's a rarity !!

Substitute "black" for "Jewish" and we have a card from any extreme right wing nut job playbook.

The original point was based around it going down well with the Islamic community but as pointed out we pretty much holds the seats where they are a factor anyway, that would be no reason to do so.

The far right approach does win votes for parties but it also has a low ceiling that would generally undercut a major party.

I do have to fully cede the point on political parties acting a bit stupid though!

Jonathan

If you have a break away MP group it makes a general election far less likely short term.

ydoethur

TheJezziah said:

JackW said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Political parties acting "a bit stupid" .... well there's a rarity !!

Substitute "black" for "Jewish" and we have a card from any extreme right wing nut job playbook.

The original point was based around it going down well with the Islamic community but as pointed out we pretty much holds the seats where they are a factor anyway, that would be no reason to do so.

The far right approach does win votes for parties but it also has a low ceiling that would generally undercut a major party.

I do have to fully cede the point on political parties acting a bit stupid though!

I'd be a lot happier if our current parties were only a 'bit' stupid. 'Mind-bendingly cretinous' would seem a more apt description.

DecrepitJohnL

old_labour said:

Dan Hodges in the Mail on Sunday, reckons there is a going to be a breakaway by a group of Labour MPs in the PLP.

Dan Hodges might be right but does have rather a track record over the years of letting wishful thinking cloud his crystal ball.

Nigelb

daodao said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

It hardly matters what the effect is in areas with significant Jewish populations, as they are very few. What matters more is that the general public will take an unfavourable view of this whipping up of the unjustified charge that Labour is antisemitic by Jews and Jewish organisations, and it is likely to lead to a backlash against them. Special pleading by a minority group is likely to increase hostility towards that group, and does not assist their long-term future...

WTF ?
“...does not assist their long term future...”
Just what do you mean by that ?

CD13

Mr Jessop,

"Therefore you can't really be racist against Jews, because they're rich and powerful, and therefore on the side of the oppressors."

With the Labour extremists, every person in an oppressed group is a revolutionary hero. Every member of an oppressing group is always a villain. Childish simplicity, but easy to remember.
Jezza circa 1968 had sympathy for that view. Unfortunately, Jezza 2018 retains that view.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1023464383308095488

ydoethur

Nigelb said:

daodao said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

It hardly matters what the effect is in areas with significant Jewish populations, as they are very few. What matters more is that the general public will take an unfavourable view of this whipping up of the unjustified charge that Labour is antisemitic by Jews and Jewish organisations, and it is likely to lead to a backlash against them. Special pleading by a minority group is likely to increase hostility towards that group, and does not assist their long-term future...

WTF ?
“...does not assist their long term future...”
Just what do you mean by that ?

I have begun to wonder if Daodao is actually a reincarnation of RodCrosby.

Seems unlikely though as there have been no shrewd comments on the American scene to make up for the anti-semitism.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. JohnL, aye, I was thinking that.

A significant split could be interesting, though. A soft centrist party could attract a number of blue defectors too. May spell doom for the Lib Dems, though.

ydoethur

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. JohnL, aye, I was thinking that.

A significant split could be interesting, though. A soft centrist party could attract a number of blue defectors too. May spell doom for the Lib Dems, though.

I don't think they would see it that way. Rather, they could merge with them to form a significant new third force under a different name that would finally underline the coalition for them. That would give a new party a nationwide organisation and slew of candidates in every seat as well.

Because let's face it, in their current form they're going precisely nowhere.

It's a pipe dream, but most such things are. 1981, 1931, 1902, 1886 all proved more or less phantasmic. Essentially if you merge two smaller parties you combine their basic irrelevance, if you merge a smaller party with a larger one the smaller one gets absorbed and two large parties have no need to combine in our system.

Nigelb

Morris_Dancer said:

Betting Post

F1: pre-race tosh here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/hungary-pre-race-2018.html

For proper bets, I've backed Bottas to lead lap 1 at 7.5 and Verstappen to be winner (each way) without Hamilton/Vettel at 6.5.

For a silly, tiny stakes bet, I've backed Sainz each way to win at 751, just in case the forecast is bollocks again and half the field ends up sliding off the track.

On the proper bets, Bottas is longer odds to lead lap 1 than the Ferraris. Which is daft. He can't deliberately throw the start, and if Hamilton has a small error the Finn will, all else being equal, go into the lead.

The Red Bull seems tasty in the dry, the Mercedes chews up its tyres, the rear gunners may be sacrificed for the title contenders, and there's not a unrealistic possibility of some of the top four colliding immediately. Of all that, Verstappen will be the beneficiary.

Decent suggestions; the weather (how hot, how dry) will have as great an influence on the outcome as anything the drivers can do.
One quibble - Ricciardo’s lack of pace in Q2 was quite explicable: he got a yellow flag in his fast lap. He’s not had much luck this season.

ydoethur

Nigelb said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Betting Post

F1: pre-race tosh here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/hungary-pre-race-2018.html

For proper bets, I've backed Bottas to lead lap 1 at 7.5 and Verstappen to be winner (each way) without Hamilton/Vettel at 6.5.

For a silly, tiny stakes bet, I've backed Sainz each way to win at 751, just in case the forecast is bollocks again and half the field ends up sliding off the track.

On the proper bets, Bottas is longer odds to lead lap 1 than the Ferraris. Which is daft. He can't deliberately throw the start, and if Hamilton has a small error the Finn will, all else being equal, go into the lead.

The Red Bull seems tasty in the dry, the Mercedes chews up its tyres, the rear gunners may be sacrificed for the title contenders, and there's not a unrealistic possibility of some of the top four colliding immediately. Of all that, Verstappen will be the beneficiary.

Decent suggestions; the weather (how hot, how dry) will have as great an influence on the outcome as anything the drivers can do.
One quibble - Ricciardo’s lack of pace in Q2 was quite explicable: he got a yellow flag in his fast lap. He’s not had much luck this season.

Starting with RBR's choice of team mate.

OldKingCole

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. JohnL, aye, I was thinking that.

A significant split could be interesting, though. A soft centrist party could attract a number of blue defectors too. May spell doom for the Lib Dems, though.

So long as there’s a more active and charismatic leader than VInce....

Nigelb

Trump’s tariffs are not going down well n the midwest:

https://www.sidneydailynews.com/opinion/columns/112560/local-farmer-calls-it-like-he-sees-it
This week the president announced he is offering $12 billion of borrowed taxpayer monies to continue to “have farmer’s backs.” These dollars are nothing more than verification that the president’s protectionist’s trade policies are folly.

Let me tell you a riddle. “I slept with a billionaire because he said he loved me. I expected to make love, but in the morning I realized I was getting screwed. When I went to tell the world, I was offered cash to keep my mouth shut.” Who am I? No, I’m not a model or someone named Stormy. I’m the American farmer....

Morris_Dancer

Mr. B, cheers for that correction/clarification, didn't realise Ricciardo got a yellow flag.

King Cole, that bar's so low even a pixie couldn't limbo dance under it.

JosiasJessop

Peter_the_Punter said:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Josias.

The only point I would like to make in response is that it is important to distinguish between The Jews and The State of Israel. The latter appears to be perceived by many on the left as a legitimate Bogeyman - the former definitely not.

Hamas, the PLO and the like are of course not Bogeymen at all, but Oppressed Minorities. Oi vey.

I think that's fair comment.

Sandpit

Nigelb said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Betting Post

F1: pre-race tosh here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/hungary-pre-race-2018.html

For proper bets, I've backed Bottas to lead lap 1 at 7.5 and Verstappen to be winner (each way) without Hamilton/Vettel at 6.5.

For a silly, tiny stakes bet, I've backed Sainz each way to win at 751, just in case the forecast is bollocks again and half the field ends up sliding off the track.

On the proper bets, Bottas is longer odds to lead lap 1 than the Ferraris. Which is daft. He can't deliberately throw the start, and if Hamilton has a small error the Finn will, all else being equal, go into the lead.

The Red Bull seems tasty in the dry, the Mercedes chews up its tyres, the rear gunners may be sacrificed for the title contenders, and there's not a unrealistic possibility of some of the top four colliding immediately. Of all that, Verstappen will be the beneficiary.

Decent suggestions; the weather (how hot, how dry) will have as great an influence on the outcome as anything the drivers can do.
One quibble - Ricciardo’s lack of pace in Q2 was quite explicable: he got a yellow flag in his fast lap. He’s not had much luck this season.

Ricciardo was a little unlucky, being just behind Stroll when he spun in deteriorating weather, so couldn’t improve enough to get out of Q2.

BBC seem to think it’s going to be dry, the F3 race starts in an hour or so and is televised on Sky, which should give us an idea of the conditions. https://www.bbc.com/weather/0/3054643

If it’s dry, the red cars have been starting well. Overtaking is not too easy here, Ricciardo could have a real struggle from so far back.

ydoethur

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Sandpit, qualifying was meant to be dry too. Weather can change quickly, so the F3 should be useful but not a guarantee of future conditions.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Doethur, yes.

Plenty more rain here, and much needed it is too. Nice to have cooler conditions too.

surby

Nigelb said:

Trump’s tariffs are not going down well n the midwest:

https://www.sidneydailynews.com/opinion/columns/112560/local-farmer-calls-it-like-he-sees-it
This week the president announced he is offering $12 billion of borrowed taxpayer monies to continue to “have farmer’s backs.” These dollars are nothing more than verification that the president’s protectionist’s trade policies are folly.

Let me tell you a riddle. “I slept with a billionaire because he said he loved me. I expected to make love, but in the morning I realized I was getting screwed. When I went to tell the world, I was offered cash to keep my mouth shut.” Who am I? No, I’m not a model or someone named Stormy. I’m the American farmer....

Three separate Marist polls came out last week. They were in MIchigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin. All were equally bad for the GOP come November.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/scott-walker-other-gop-candidates-key-midwest-states-trail-democratic-n895001

JosiasJessop

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Doethur, yes.

Plenty more rain here, and much needed it is too. Nice to have cooler conditions too.

On Friday, We had thunderstorms. Before them, it was 32 degrees or so. Afterwards it was a barmy 25. That evening it was back to 30+.

I much prefer the cooler weather.

surby

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

You already are.

SquareRoot

IanB2 said:

SquareRoot said:

Jonathan said:

The tribalism and leader personality cults in political parties is the heart of the problem. Cyclefree had it right the other day. When you're convinced that your tribe is right, or worse still, righteous, there is seemingly no limit on the things you are justified to say or do.

We re-learned that lesson from the era of Gordon Brown.

More striking and convincing examples from history come to mind.

Indeed, but his is the most recent...

ydoethur

surby said:

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

You already are.

Good point!

JackW

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

I did advise you last night that you were to be judged and have found you to be a complete shower .... hence ....

Recidivist

Please ignore

TheJezziah

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

The first hour or so of rain was a bit of a novelty then I wanted my beautiful summer back.

Everyone who complained that it was 'too warm' or 'too sunny' this is on your heads!

In regards to the some Labour MPs breaking away I'm sure Dan Hodges is just building my hopes up falsely again...

Theuniondivvie

MarqueeMark said:

2018: the Conservative Party tears itself apart over how to implement the biggest political change since World War 2.

2018: the Labour Party tears itself apart over how to implement the biggest atrocity of World War 2.

How do you implement an atrocity that's already occurred?

felix

Foxy said:

TheJezziah said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

I don't want to get accused of anti semitism again but as I pointed out previously the idea of Labour doing it to win votes was always a bit stupid....

Not to mention the rather offensive Islamophobic assumption that many Muslims are going to change their vote because they are itching to vote for an Anti-Semitic party.

Lol - are you for real! Polling shows considerable hostility in the Muslim community to both Gays and Jews - and i thought denial was just an long river in N Africa!

ydoethur

JackW said:

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

I did advise you last night that you were to be judged and have found you to be a complete shower .... hence ....

Your Grace can control the weather?

TheJezziah said:

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

The first hour or so of rain was a bit of a novelty then I wanted my beautiful summer back.

Everyone who complained that it was 'too warm' or 'too sunny' this is on your heads!

Naturally. We're British. When we can't moan about the weather, we feel as though the universe isn't functioning.

ydoethur

Incidentally I have not seen any mention of this on the site:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-44971287

I'm going to be careful in what I say next. There seem to me to be major legal implications and I think there is a possibility of another agency becoming involved.

In which case there is a truly huge scandal brewing.

JackW

ydoethur said:

JackW said:

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

I did advise you last night that you were to be judged and have found you to be a complete shower .... hence ....

Your Grace can control the weather?

Ark Ark ....

felix

Nigelb said:

daodao said:

rcs1000 said:

asjohnstone said:

Probably plays fairly well in the Islamic community though.

Although all the seats with significant Muslim populations are Labour already.

This plays badly in areas with significant Jewish populations.

It hardly matters what the effect is in areas with significant Jewish populations, as they are very few. What matters more is that the general public will take an unfavourable view of this whipping up of the unjustified charge that Labour is antisemitic by Jews and Jewish organisations, and it is likely to lead to a backlash against them. Special pleading by a minority group is likely to increase hostility towards that group, and does not assist their long-term future...

WTF ?
“...does not assist their long term future...”
Just what do you mean by that ?

He has said it before on here. Extraordinary.

DavidL

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1023450792357969920

https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1023451536930824192

I think that that piece is a good example of the problem. Corbyn is suggesting that Israel is stirring up trouble between the new Egyptian government (in 2012) and the Palestinians.

It is an entirely credible accusation. The previous Egyptian government was the main source of weaponry for Gaza which was a significant thorn in Israel's side. Of course they would seek to disrupt that relationship given the opportunity. If you ask cui bono the answer is clearly Israel.

There are some peculiar bits such as the Ramadan suggestion. The fact that it was Egyptian bombers doing the bombing is somewhat glided over. But what makes this suspicion that a government with a long track record of seeking to divide and rule its opponents (for entirely understandable reasons) anti-Semitic? I am not sure I see it.

surby

I have not read the IHRA definition of anti-semitism. Indeed, I have not read the Labour party version either.

In what way, are the two significantly different ?

One post I read said the IHRA definition should be implemented because it was accepted by the Board of Deputies for Jewish people.

Should we also implement a standard on Islamophobia agreed by the Chief Imam of Makkah ?
I, for one, would not immediately agree with that one. In fact, my question will be , who is he ? Just like the BoD. To me they should, of course, have an opinion like everyone else. But no statement should be there just because the BoD is OK with it. That cannot be a condition.

Isn't it the case that today , just like the Church of England of old, that the BoD is the Tory party in prayer in a Synagogue ?

I take it the I in IHRA stands for International. Who agreed the statement of behalf of the International community ? How was that body made up ?

Finally, I would take many of these criticisms of Corbyn more seriously if any of the these people also showed the slightest sympathy for Palestinians, whose lands were seized without reparations, illegal [ in international law ] settlements built on their lands. Orchards, which provided their livelihood destroyed to build these wretched settlements.

One or two will have a sentence buried in an avalanche of attack on Corbyn. The others won't even bother.

Huge injustices including the murder of 6m Jews took place in Europe barely 75 years ago. But I am not sure why Palestinians should pay for that.

In reality, the summary is, that Israel cannot be criticised even in the month when it flagrantly created a law which said only Jews have the right of self-determination in Israel. So much for equality ?

RochdalePioneers

JosiasJessop said:

From what I've read and seen, I'd class Corbyn as a 'passive' anti-Semite. He'd never dream of himself as being one, but he's all too willing to fall into classic anti-Semitic thinking. Because he can't be racist because he's been anti-racist all his life ...

As you say, the problems with this sort of thinking extends outside the UK: groups that are 'oppressed' in this country might be the 'oppressors' in other countries.

This is the key piece of insight. How is it possible to say anti-semitic things whilst claiming not to be anti-semitic? Because you don't know what anti-Semitism actually is. I've been making this exact point on the biggest Labour Facebook group - that statements about "there is no anti-Semitism" and "Jeremy is a staunch anti-racist are so often immediately followed by comments that are basic anti-semitism.

They don't hate Jews. They will tell you in detail how they fight against racism and for all those oppressed by it. And its true - they genuinely aren't racist or anti-semitic. They just think that Israel is a disgusting racist endevour oppressing the palestinians and that it is illegitimate and that its supportwrs use their power and wealth to suppress their right to criticise it and all these Jews complaining about anti-Semitism are part of a monied powerful conspiracy against their beloved Jeremy (peace be upon him) and before they complain about antisemitism how about they apologise for the actions of Israel.

Passive anti-semitism. A wonderful summation by JosiasJessop

anothernick

DecrepitJohnL said:

old_labour said:

Dan Hodges in the Mail on Sunday, reckons there is a going to be a breakaway by a group of Labour MPs in the PLP.

Dan Hodges might be right but does have rather a track record over the years of letting wishful thinking cloud his crystal ball.

Yes. I have had several conversations with fellow Labour members this week and there is general agreement that corbyns handling of this issue has been a disaster (several new members who joined since 2015 took this line, it's not just the pre-Corbyn generation). But no one mentioned a breakaway as a possible response. It's not a live issue. I can't think of more than a handful of members in my CLP who might be attracted to a new party.

ydoethur

JackW said:

ydoethur said:

JackW said:

ydoethur said:

It's bucketing down here in Cannock. We've had 19 hours of rain.

Is it too soon to start complaining about this?

I did advise you last night that you were to be judged and have found you to be a complete shower .... hence ....

Your Grace can control the weather?

Ark Ark ....

Your posts are coming in two by two...

Or perhaps that should be 'You Grace is all Noahing?'