I get fed up of hearing that 17.4 million voted for leave. As the majority over remain was in the region of 1.4 million surely that's the important figure. It probably wasn't difficult to sway 1.4 million voters with xenophobic lies as well as images of £350 million pounds for the NHS on red buses.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Euro membership has caused a great deal of hardship in Southern Europe, though.
When you have high unemployment and low growth it's pretty cold comfort that your currency has appreciated in value.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that ther
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party.
It’s.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
I criticise May for her failure to plan for no deal, failing to manage her two chief spads, failing to lead either the cabinet or the country, and her conduct during the election campaign, and the polarising tone she used in the months after the vote domestically. I blame Boris for his cowardice and poor performance. I blame Fox for his myopic focus on a US trade deal (and an unsuccessful one at that) and Davis, who started well but rapidly dissolved. I think Gove has done very well, whereas Leadsom embarrassed. I think Hammond was politically inept and not on message for far too long, pursuing an conflicting strategy to May. I have lost respect for Hannah and Carswell who have just sniped from the sidelines. Farage is now persona non grata to me. I despair at Leavers who admire Putin.
I blame Selmayr, Juncker, Tusk and Barnier for their intransigence on the EU side, their ultra-fortress like defensiveness to Brexit, their failure to do any real analysis on the reasons the UK voted to Leave, for insisting on following a penrose staircase strategy on Northern Ireland that failed to move discussions on early enough, and the need to recognise both the sovereignty of the UK and a need for a special status for NI to reflect its history. I blame the EU institutions as well (led from the top) for their ridiculous and borderline vindictive desire to exclude the UK from any and all European associations and programmes, and for failing to think at all about a new long term sustainable arrangement for a UK-EU relationship that would satisfy both sides. Funnily enough, I don’t extend that wholly to Verhofstadht who’s at least recognised the UK might need a new form of associate membership in the long term.
In short, there’s been whopping great errors on both sides about what should have always been recognising the EU status quo was simply not politically sustainable in the UK, and a new arrangement was needed.
Why are you blaming Tusk et al for sticking to what they believe in ? It is not their business how the UK maanges it's departure. They did not choose the UK to leave the EU.
Just long enough to get our majority of 2. We must win in 2022, a Corbyn victory needs to be taken off the table, even if it means we have to use VL style tactics to win. If the Tory party isn't in favour of winning then what's the point of it?
IF it does manage a majority of 2, the years 2022-27 will make 1992-7 look like a picnic as Labour moves back to the centre and in 2027 the Conservatives will get a result which will make them look fondly on 1906 and 1997.
I might be wrong but I don’t think so. Politics is much more polarised these days on values and identity.
I wouldn’t expect a collapse to 150 seats.
Depends on whether or not the Tories split.
The decimation, even total collapse, of a party of government can occur in the course of a single electoral cycle, if the right circumstances exist, even where first-past-the-post is in use - see Canada in 1993.
Could be. Is it supposed to be an angel? Are we? What relevance is that?
Chiding liberals for supporting Israel when it was a plucky underdog then criticising it when it's strong and assertive was your construction. Personally I'm entirely happy to admire plucky underdogs and despise brutish bullies, even when they're different stages in the evolution(sic) of the same person/entity.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that ther
It’s.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
I criticise May for her failure to plan for no deal, failing to manage her two chief spads, failing to lead either the cabinet or the country, and her conduct during the election campaign, and the polarising tone she used in the months after the vote domestically. I blame Boris for his cowardice and poor performance. I blame Fox for his myopic focus on a US trade deal (and an unsuccessful one at that) and Davis, who started well but rapidly dissolved. I think Gove has done very well, whereas Leadsom embarrassed. I think Hammond was politically inept and not on message for far too long, pursuing an conflicting strategy to May. I have lost respect for Hannah and Carswell who have just sniped from the sidelines. Farage is now persona non grata to me. I despair at Leavers who admire Putin.
I blame Selmayr, Juncker, Tusk and Barnier for their intransigence on the EU side, their ultra-fortress like defensiveness to Brexit, their failure to do any real analysis on the reasons the UK voted to Leave, for insisting on following a penrose staircase strategy on Northern Ireland that failed to move discussions on early enough, and the need to recognise both the sovereignty of the UK and a need for a special status for NI to reflect its history. I blame the EU institutions as well (led from the top) for their ridiculous and borderline vindictive desire to exclude the UK from any and all European associations and programmes, and for failing to think at all about a new long term sustainable arrangement for a UK-EU relationship that would satisfy both sides. Funnily enough, I don’t extend that wholly to Verhofstadht who’s at least recognised the UK might need a new form of associate membership in the long term.
In short, there’s been whopping great errors on both sides about what should have always been recognising the EU status quo was simply not politically sustainable in the UK, and a new arrangement was needed.
Very good post - the way things are going HMG need to start explaining how we move to WTO and the real pros and cons. It really does look like WTO or remain, but I do not see a pathway to remain
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Many things being said now are controversial but the way the anti-Corbynites talk and write here is as if the Israeli government are full of angels.
I have not seen here any mention of:
1.Palestinian lands being seized
2.Illegal settlements built on Palestinian lands.
3.No mention of reparations at all.
4. Hundreds of Palestinians killed without virtually no repercussions on the perpetrators.
Recently, an Israeli soldier got 9 months after being found guilty of killing a Palestinian. A Palestinian teenage girl was sentenced to 8 months for slapping an Israeli soldier !
If the land was seized from other people you would not have heard the end it.
Finally, let's talk about the Holocaust. 6 million were killed. No Palestinian was ever found guilty for it.
Europeans killed the Jews. Palestinians just lost their lands.
Of course, there are many in PB who will argue that it is all the Palestinians fault !
"Last week Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, passed a controversial bill declaring that only Jews have the right of self-determination in the country."
If you think nobody who is criticising Corbynistas for their apologia in anti-Semitism has mentioned those, that merely confirms you don't actually bother reading the comments you're criticising. There is a very real difference between legitimate criticism of a state with an abysmal record on human rights, and prejudiced vilification of people because they are Jewish (not my words, the words of Charles Gray as he ruled against David Irving). It is a line that too many in Labour seem to have forgotten exists.
The elephant in the room here may be Jenny Formby rather than Jeremy Corbyn, who after all would be kicked out of the party if the full definition were adopted:
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
I know it was at 1.4, made our export books look dire.
Could be. Is it supposed to be an angel? Are we? What relevance is that?
Chiding liberals for supporting Israel when it was a plucky underdog then criticising it when it's strong and assertive was your construction. Personally I'm entirely happy to admire plucky underdogs and despise brutish bullies, even when they're different stages in the evolution(sic) of the same person/entity.
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Euro membership has caused a great deal of hardship in Southern Europe, though.
When you have high unemployment and low growth it's pretty cold comfort that your currency has appreciated in value.
Even Greece is ahead of us in GDP growth now.
Debasing the currency has only ever been a short term measure. It is a sign of economic failure, not of success.
I criticise May for her failure to plan for no deal, failing to manage her two chief spads, failing to lead either the cabinet or the country, and her conduct during the election campaign, and the polarising tone she used in the months after the vote domestically. I blame Boris for his cowardice and poor performance. I blame Fox for his myopic focus on a US trade deal (and an unsuccessful one at that) and Davis, who started well but rapidly dissolved. I think Gove has done very well, whereas Leadsom embarrassed. I think Hammond was politically inept and not on message for far too long, pursuing an conflicting strategy to May. I have lost respect for Hannah and Carswell who have just sniped from the sidelines. Farage is now persona non grata to me. I despair at Leavers who admire Putin.
I blame Selmayr, Juncker, Tusk and Barnier for their intransigence on the EU side, their ultra-fortress like defensiveness to Brexit, their failure to do any real analysis on the reasons the UK voted to Leave, for insisting on following a penrose staircase strategy on Northern Ireland that failed to move discussions on early enough, and the need to recognise both the sovereignty of the UK and a need for a special status for NI to reflect its history. I blame the EU institutions as well (led from the top) for their ridiculous and borderline vindictive desire to exclude the UK from any and all European associations and programmes, and for failing to think at all about a new long term sustainable arrangement for a UK-EU relationship that would satisfy both sides. Funnily enough, I don’t extend that wholly to Verhofstadht who’s at least recognised the UK might need a new form of associate membership in the long term.
In short, there’s been whopping great errors on both sides about what should have always been recognising the EU status quo was simply not politically sustainable in the UK, and a new arrangement was needed.
I agree with quite a lot of that, but I think you underestimate just how much British incompetence has led to the steady evolution of a more hard line EU position.
Any Brexit outcome is now now likely to be lose/lose, but the UK has rather more to lose than the EU.
On labour's anti semetic problems I will not comment on the detail but the problem for Corbyn is that he is being damaged by public perception of his stance, even though many, maybe most, do not understand the finer nuance
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that there might be a new grouping unequivocally committed to Leave in the event of a second referendum dangerously credible. Remainers are playing with fire. I think May gets that and will do her level best to avoid a scenario which would be horrendously divisive in the country and quite possibly terminal to the existence of her own party.
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party and it's doing immense damage to the country right now.
It’s not unequivocal, though. It has been ambiguous, ambivalent and indecisive in its attempts to keep the remainer minority on board. It cannot agree what it wants. Hence the current mess which remainers claim “proves” that it is all too difficult.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
The point when Brexiteers get to make a decision. All the decisions to date have been made by remainers, albeit ones supposedly committed to leaving.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Euro membership has caused a great deal of hardship in Southern Europe, though.
When you have high unemployment and low growth it's pretty cold comfort that your currency has appreciated in value.
Even Greece is ahead of us in GDP growth now.
Debasing the currency has only ever been a short term measure. It is a sign of economic failure, not of success.
All EU27 countries are ahead of us now - even Italy, I believe. And all other countries in the G7.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that there might be a new grouping unequivocally committed to Leave in the event of a second referendum dangerously credible. Remainers are playing with fire. I think May gets that and will do her level best to avoid a scenario which would be horrendously divisive in the country and quite possibly terminal to the existence of her own party.
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party and it's doing immense damage to the country right now.
It’s not unequivocal, though. It has been ambiguous, ambivalent and indecisive in its attempts to keep the remainer minority on board. It cannot agree what it wants. Hence the current mess which remainers claim “proves” that it is all too difficult.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
The point when Brexiteers get to make a decision. All the decisions to date have been made by remainers, albeit ones supposedly committed to leaving.
None of the decisions made so far are supported by Remainers. So I find your comment extremely baffling.
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that there might be a new grouping unequivocally committed to Leave in the event of a second referendum dangerously credible. Remainers are playing with fire. I think May gets that and will do her level best to avoid a scenario which would be horrendously divisive in the country and quite possibly terminal to the existence of her own party.
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party and it's doing immense damage to the country right now.
It’s not unequivocal, though. It has been ambiguous, ambivalent and indecisive in its attempts to keep the remainer minority on board. It cannot agree what it wants. Hence the current mess which remainers claim “proves” that it is all too difficult.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
The point when Brexiteers get to make a decision. All the decisions to date have been made by remainers, albeit ones supposedly committed to leaving.
Was Boris Johnson prohibited from promoting the idea of a new European institutional framework that Vote Leave promised, or was there simply no substance to the aspiration?
Quite where Labour thinks it gets the moral authority from to do this is unfathomable.
NPXMPX2 was telling us this morning that Jewish media concerns about anti-semitism was "unhelpfully OTT".
Its a typical NPXMPX2 comment.. its sort of blaming Jews for the mess Labour is in. Its nonsense ./
beneath the friendly exterior NPXMP is was and always will be a committed hard left true believer - he spent his youth in one of the richest and most successful western democracies where income inequality is incredibly low and STILL thought there was a need for communism - he's a true believer and would chuck pretty much anything under the bus to see a 'proper' socialist government.
Can't be bothered to engage at this level, but anyone concerned by this supposed quote should have a look at my two posts on the last thread that it's, um, adapted from.
not sure what level you mean - I simply pointed out that, like Billy Bragg, you think the ultimate goal of a real socialist government means certain bothersome complaints can only be thought of as exagerrated or a smear or in Bragg's case some sort of conspiracy (quelle surprise) - you want full bloodied unapologetic socialism and Corbyn is the best chance you've seen for this to happen in the UK in decades.
You do have relatively jovial tone, which is great, but your politics are what they have always been, extreme left - not my cup of tea but fair enough - you do however have to accept that carries a price, like any ideologically driven endeavour. At the moment that means protecting Corbyn by downplaying the the anti-semitism issue.
I get fed up of hearing that 17.4 million voted for leave. As the majority over remain was in the region of 1.4 million surely that's the important figure. It probably wasn't difficult to sway 1.4 million voters with xenophobic lies as well as images of £350 million pounds for the NHS on red buses.
And would it have been difficult to terrify some people into voting the other way with apocalyptic predictions of millions of lost jobs, the fall of Western civilization and the threat of World War 3? No.
Both sides talked their fair share of bollocks, and FWIW at least the Leave campaign included some element of positivity and wasn't simply a bloody great dirge of dismal scare stories which essentially amounted to "listen, we know this EU thing is a shit sandwich, but eat it anyway or else what you've got coming next will be even worse."
The Remain campaign was amply resourced and had the Prime Minister, most of the Cabinet and the Parliamentary Tory Party, and virtually all of Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and Plaid, the Greens and the NI nationalists backing it to the hilt - i.e. the entire political establishment of the UK, except for the Tory Leavers, the DUP and Ukip. As well as a strong majority of influential voices in a range of other fields including business, academia and entertainment. The idea that it lost because of a red bus and a few Facebook ads, rather than through the utter uselessness of both David Cameron and its own efforts, is risible. And I'm not sure that endless circular arguments over whose campaign was or was not slightly less dirty two years ago are going to get us anywhere, either.
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that there might be a new grouping unequivocally committed to Leave in the event of a second referendum dangerously credible. Remainers are playing with fire. I think May gets that and will do her level best to avoid a scenario which would be horrendously divisive in the country and quite possibly terminal to the existence of her own party.
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party and it's doing immense damage to the country right now.
It’s not unequivocal, though. It has been ambiguous, ambivalent and indecisive in its attempts to keep the remainer minority on board. It cannot agree what it wants. Hence the current mess which remainers claim “proves” that it is all too difficult.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
The point when Brexiteers get to make a decision. All the decisions to date have been made by remainers, albeit ones supposedly committed to leaving.
Messrs Johnson, Davis and Fox had two years to make their mark. Blaming the Prime Minister for their egregious incompetence is outrageous.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
It is also worth remembering internal Israeli politics as well. Until the 1980s Israel was a defiantly socialist country, and 15% actually lived in communal settings (kibbutzim) where money and labour were shared equally. Indeed, for much of this period it had close ties to the Soviet Union. Lefties in the 70s used to visit Israel to see what a Socialist paradise really looked like.
However, socialism being about as effectual as Donald Trump's chastity belt, in the 1980s Israel's economy collapsed in hyperinflation and low productivity, so radical political and economic changes were made. This led Israel to become wealthy, and successful - and therefore totally anathema to the left.
Up until that point the left were uninterested in Israeli behaviour because it was on their side. After all, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is undoubtedly comparable to the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, which many (Milne) were actually in favour of. But now good old-fashioned claims that the Jews only claim about themselves and money, staples of the 19th century socialist movement, can comfortably rear their heads again - and they do.
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that ther
It’s.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
I criticise May for her failure to plan for no deal, failing to manage her two chief spads, failing to lead either the cabinet or the country, and her conduct during the election campaign, and the polarising tone she used in the months after the vote domestically. I blame Boris for his cowardice and poor performance. I blame Fox for his myopic focus on a US trade deal (and an unsuccessful one at that) and Davis, who started well but rapidly dissolved. I think Gove has done very well, whereas Leadsom embarrassed. I think Hammond was politically inept and not on message for far too long, pursuing an conflicting strategy to May. I have lost respect for Hannah and Carswell who have just sniped from the sidelines. Farage is now persona non grata to me. I despair at Leavers who admire Putin.
I blame Selmayr, Juncker, Tusk and Barnier for their intransigence on the EU side, their ultra-fortress like defensiveness to Brexit, their failure to do any real analysis on the reasons the UK voted to Leave, for insisting on following a penrose staircase strategy on Northern Ireland that failed to move discussions on early enough, and the need to recognise both the sovereignty of the UK and a need for a special status for NI to reflect its history. I blame the EU institutions as well (led from the top) for their ridiculous and borderline vindictive desire to exclude the UK from any and all European associations and programmes, and for failing to think at all about a new long term sustainable arrangement for a UK-EU relationship that would satisfy both sides. Funnily enough, I don’t extend that wholly to Verhofstadht who’s at least recognised the UK might need a new form of associate membership in the long term.
In short, there’s been whopping great errors on both sides about what should have always been recognising the EU status quo was simply not politically sustainable in the UK, and a new arrangement was needed.
Very good post - the way things are going HMG need to start explaining how we move to WTO and the real pros and cons. It really does look like WTO or remain, but I do not see a pathway to remain
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
Could be. Is it supposed to be an angel? Are we? What relevance is that?
Chiding liberals for supporting Israel when it was a plucky underdog then criticising it when it's strong and assertive was your construction. Personally I'm entirely happy to admire plucky underdogs and despise brutish bullies, even when they're different stages in the evolution(sic) of the same person/entity.
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
Lineker's dad had a fruit and veg stall on Leicester market, on which Gary helped as a kid. Apparently he has no understanding of working class life though!
It is perfectly possible to transition from angel to devil in one day, and back again. The opinion that in 1967 Israel was the plucky underdog does not excuse their abuses 50 years later.
I might be wrong but I don’t think so. Politics is much more polarised these days on values and identity.
I wouldn’t expect a collapse to 150 seats.
I have no clue either but by then the Conservatives will have had 17 years in office and while you might not think that enough I suspect you will be in the minority.
To be fair, i didn’t say it wouldn’t be enough. I just challenged an asteroid like landslide.
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
It is also worth remembering internal Israeli politics as well. Until the 1980s Israel was a defiantly socialist country, and 15% actually lived in communal settings (kibbutzim) where money and labour were shared equally. Indeed, for much of this period it had close ties to the Soviet Union. Lefties in the 70s used to visit Israel to see what a Socialist paradise really looked like.
However, socialism being about as effectual as Donald Trump's chastity belt, in the 1980s Israel's economy collapsed in hyperinflation and low productivity, so radical political and economic changes were made. This led Israel to become wealthy, and successful - and therefore totally anathema to the left.
Up until that point the left were uninterested in Israeli behaviour because it was on their side. After all, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is undoubtedly comparable to the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, which many (Milne) were actually in favour of. But now good old-fashioned claims that the Jews only claim about themselves and money, staples of the 19th century socialist movement, can comfortably rear their heads again - and they do.
They do indeed and it is with no respect for them that I note that even some on this parish find themselves downplaying, as @kingbongo puts it, the anti-semitism issue.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
Petrol or diesel? What engine size?
520cdi (diesel) and it really motors if you need it
Many things being said now are controversial but the way the anti-Corbynites talk and write here is as if the Israeli government are full of angels.
I have not seen here any mention of:
1.Palestinian lands being seized
2.Illegal settlements built on Palestinian lands.
3.No mention of reparations at all.
4. Hundreds of Palestinians killed without virtually no repercussions on the perpetrators.
Recently, an Israeli soldier got 9 months after being found guilty of killing a Palestinian. A Palestinian teenage girl was sentenced to 8 months for slapping an Israeli soldier !
If the land was seized from other people you would not have heard the end it.
Finally, let's talk about the Holocaust. 6 million were killed. No Palestinian was ever found guilty for it.
Europeans killed the Jews. Palestinians just lost their lands.
Of course, there are many in PB who will argue that it is all the Palestinians fault !
"Last week Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, passed a controversial bill declaring that only Jews have the right of self-determination in the country."
If you think nobody who is criticising Corbynistas for their apologia in anti-Semitism has mentioned those, that merely confirms you don't actually bother reading the comments you're criticising. There is a very real difference between legitimate criticism of a state with an abysmal record on human rights, and prejudiced vilification of people because they are Jewish (not my words, the words of Charles Gray as he ruled against David Irving). It is a line that too many in Labour seem to have forgotten exists.
The elephant in the room here may be Jenny Formby rather than Jeremy Corbyn, who after all would be kicked out of the party if the full definition were adopted:
Which would be awkward given her - ahem - links to the real power in Labour, Len McCluskey.
I have read many of Cyclefree's rants . Forgive me, if I missed any mention of Palestinians being paid reparations for seizing their lands illegally and Israels soldiers receiving correct custodial sentences for killing Palestinians and not 9 months when 8 months was given to a teenage Palestinian girl for slapping an Israeli soldier.
It is you who is blind ! You cannot bring yourself to criticise the illegal occupation under International Law of Palestinian lands.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
Petrol or diesel? What engine size?
520cdi (diesel) and it really motors if you need it
TBQH then Big G I don't think that's very impressive fuel economy. I'd be disappointed to get less than 65mpg from my diesel over a journey of any length. However I appreciate if you were driving fast with a full load that would have made a difference.
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that there might be a new grouping unequivocally committed to Leave in the event of a second referendum dangerously credible. Remainers are playing with fire. I think May gets that and will do her level best to avoid a scenario which would be horrendously divisive in the country and quite possibly terminal to the existence of her own party.
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party and it's doing immense damage to the country right now.
It’s not unequivocal, though. It has been ambiguous, ambivalent and indecisive in its attempts to keep the remainer minority on board. It cannot agree what it wants. Hence the current mess which remainers claim “proves” that it is all too difficult.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
The point when Brexiteers get to make a decision. All the decisions to date have been made by remainers, albeit ones supposedly committed to leaving.
Is a remainer who is committed to leaving not a leaver?
It is perfectly OK to say Gaza is being brutally oppressed by the Israelis. It is fine to say that Israel's blockade is inhumane and probably illegal. It's fair enough to condemn the way Israel blocks medical supplies and thereby causes avoidable deaths. Those are all true, and they are all the result of deliberate policy choices by Israeli governments of many stripes over literally decades. They are reprehensible.
It is absolutely not OK however to compare it to a ghetto, concentration camp or extermination camp (or indeed to Leningrad and Stalingrad, Mr Corbyn). This is partly because the parallel reveals a profound ignorance of what those things actually were, or what they did. For example, nobody in Gaza is forced to do slave labour for the enrichment of senior officers in the IDF, as the Jews were in the ghettos. But it is also because the comparison being made is between Jews and Nazis. Now, leaving aside the fact that however bad they can be - and I'm no fan of Netanyahu - Jews are certainly not Nazis, both because fortunately very few people are (albeit that is unfortunately not a comment we can make of all Corbyn's friends and supporters, cf. Paul Eisen and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) and because it is impossible for a Jew to meet the one key consistent requirement of being a Nazi, that is for very obvious reasons a grossly offensive parallel and designed to be offensive.
I think I'll allow those two posts to speak for themselves.
I think you are describing how you see Labour. It doesn't bear much resemblance to the actual party with several hundred thousand members and some thousands of elected representatives. Though if you have some polling on refusal to understand Kantian moral imperatives etc I'm prepared to be corrected.
Kant was mistaken. His categorical imperative leads to absurd conclusions.
That’s a relief. I thought I just didn’t understand all the big words.
I use big words sometimes. It makes me sound more photosynthesis.
I always liked Len Deighton’s definition of an intellectual: someone who uses one big word when 6 little ones would do.
The greatest intellectuals are able to explain complicated subjects in fairly straightforward terms.
Judges too. I started with Denning, then a Scottish judge Macfadyen, then Hodge and latterly Sumption. All have the ability to explain the law with an elegant simplicity which gives insight into what the moving parts are in that area of the law. It makes the application of the principles to your particular facts so much more straightforward.
Could be. Is it supposed to be an angel? Are we? What relevance is that?
Chiding liberals for supporting Israel when it was a plucky underdog then criticising it when it's strong and assertive was your construction. Personally I'm entirely happy to admire plucky underdogs and despise brutish bullies, even when they're different stages in the evolution(sic) of the same person/entity.
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
So, in your own words, the Jews needed a break and the Palestinians had to lose their lands to accommodate that.
I repeat six million Jews were killed in the holocaust ! Palestinians did not kill even one of them. But they had to pay the price because "the Jews needed a break"
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It sounds as though you've been diddled by someone! You can get 330 Euro for that amount with no trouble, and there no need to pay any commission whatsoever.
One of the things that has happened since the pound has weakened (as some had been calling for pre-Brexit referendum) is that the trade deficit has fallen by between a third and a half (iirc), if such things are of interest.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
I feel a bit sorry for Labour. There's far less racism in the Labour Party than in the Tory party, and Antisemitism has never been a huge problem in the UK compared with almost any other country you care to name. It has increased of late thanks to Muslim immigration and the spread of conspiracy theories on the internet, but the idea that Jews are thinking of leaving the UK because of Jeremy Corbyn is laughable.
Having said that, Tony Blair would never have allowed this problem to fester. Perhaps it was inevitable that a problem like this would eventually smother Corbyn. But those on the Right who are fanning the flames will be regretting the whole sorry affair if it leads to Corbyn quitting.
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
I've had quite a good experience of railways today. I did the Chase Line from New Street to Rugeley. Still waiting on those overhead cables so we can have our direct service to Euston, which was promised for this time last year.
Rugeley Trent Valley is ludicrous. Four platforms six tracks and ooh, tree trains an hour. If they bought the nearby field and put parking on it, it could be the best parkway in the Midlands. As it is, it's got no pedestrian access, no housing, and less parking than Rugeley Town - so it's a ghost station!
What was annoying is I dutifully forked out for returns from Cannock to BNS and Cannock to RTV - and then my ticket was only inspected once so I could have got away with a return from BNS to RTV at 60% of the price.
I feel a bit sorry for Labour. There's far less racism in the Labour Party than in the Tory party, and Antisemitism has never been a huge problem in the UK compared with almost any other country you care to name. It has increased of late thanks to Muslim immigration and the spread of conspiracy theories on the internet, but the idea that Jews are thinking of leaving the UK because of Jeremy Corbyn is laughable.
Having said that, Tony Blair would never have allowed this problem to fester. Perhaps it was inevitable that a problem like this would eventually smother Corbyn. But those on the Right who are fanning the flames will be regretting the whole sorry affair if it leads to Corbyn quitting.
Those of us who want a passably sane Labour Party to vote for will be cheering though.
Edit - besides, it would be extraordinarily embarrassing for the leader of the Labour Party to have to quit because of a race row. No prominent politician has been brought down for something like this since Churchill in 1930-31.
Well, technically he may be correct. He actually said Hitler was 'the best friend the Zionists ever had until he went mad and killed them all.'
The minor detail that he was wrong on every possible level and clearly was out to cause offence seems not to have registered with dear Ken.
I think the objection to what Ken said is that it is flippant and unsympathetic, and indicates a lack of appropriate awareness of the seriousness of the issues. Whether or not it is true or false in any objective sense doesn't really come into it.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
I have had an X5 since last October after several 525s and 520s. All great drives.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Euro membership has caused a great deal of hardship in Southern Europe, though.
When you have high unemployment and low growth it's pretty cold comfort that your currency has appreciated in value.
Even Greece is ahead of us in GDP growth now.
Debasing the currency has only ever been a short term measure. It is a sign of economic failure, not of success.
Yet France is falling behind us. Not something the forecasters saw when they said we'd be last within the G7. But hey, who gives a fuck about experts any more.
I have read many of Cyclefree's rants . Forgive me, if I missed any mention of Palestinians being paid reparations for seizing their lands illegally and Israels soldiers receiving correct custodial sentences for killing Palestinians and not 9 months when 8 months was given to a teenage Palestinian girl for slapping an Israeli soldier.
It is you who is blind ! You cannot bring yourself to criticise the illegal occupation under International Law of Palestinian lands.
I've mentioned some of this stuff previously on here; in fact, many times.
There's another angle to this: there are no 'angels' in the Middle East, country-wise - which is quite annoying given he area's religious history!
Israel can behave terribly - but so have the Palestinians and the surrounding countries. The violence and extremism on both main sides of the conflict have fed each other, and it can be argued that only the extreme actions of the Israeli government - such as building the wall - have stopped most of the terrorism against them.
For instance, it might be helpful for the Palestinians to stop their rocket and mortar attacks against Israel, which continue on into this year - 174 a fortnight ago alone.
To make matters worse, other countries in the region, and in the wider world, have used the sides - and especially the Palestinians - for their own purposes. In many cases it has not been in their interests for there to be peace.
If you are truly interested in peace in the region - and that means peace for Jew, Palestinian, Christian and everyone else - then you have to criticise all sides when they do wrong, and praise them when they do right.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
I get fed up of hearing that 17.4 million voted for leave. As the majority over remain was in the region of 1.4 million surely that's the important figure. It probably wasn't difficult to sway 1.4 million voters with xenophobic lies as well as images of £350 million pounds for the NHS on red buses.
And would it have been difficult to terrify some people into voting the other way with apocalyptic predictions of millions of lost jobs, the fall of Western civilization and the threat of World War 3? No.
Both sides talked their fair share of bollocks, and FWIW at least the Leave campaign included some element of positivity and wasn't simply a bloody great dirge of dismal scare stories which essentially amounted to "listen, we know this EU thing is a shit sandwich, but eat it anyway or else what you've got coming next will be even worse."
The Remain campaign was amply resourced and had the Prime Minister, most of the Cabinet and the Parliamentary Tory Party, and virtually all of Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and Plaid, the Greens and the NI nationalists backing it to the hilt - i.e. the entire political establishment of the UK, except for the Tory Leavers, the DUP and Ukip. As well as a strong majority of influential voices in a range of other fields including business, academia and entertainment. The idea that it lost because of a red bus and a few Facebook ads, rather than through the utter uselessness of both David Cameron and its own efforts, is risible. And I'm not sure that endless circular arguments over whose campaign was or was not slightly less dirty two years ago are going to get us anywhere, either.
I don't know what positive comments the leavers came up with, apart from let's get back to the good old days when we had an empire, etc etc. I am willing to concede that the remain side used too many scare tactics, but they were only responding to the xenophobic lies of Turkish entry and asylum seekers, and stealing our jobs, etc etc.
Sadly, I am resigned to seeing us depart from the EU, but I can't see our glorious youngsters flocking back to work to do the jobs which were being done very efficiently by EU workers et al.
Well, technically he may be correct. He actually said Hitler was 'the best friend the Zionists ever had until he went mad and killed them all.'
The minor detail that he was wrong on every possible level and clearly was out to cause offence seems not to have registered with dear Ken.
I think the objection to what Ken said is that it is flippant and unsympathetic, and indicates a lack of appropriate awareness of the seriousness of the issues. Whether or not it is true or false in any objective sense doesn't really come into it.
No. The fact that it was false - and is in fact a trope of Holocaust deniers, having first been espoused by Paul Rassinier - is very clearly relevant, as is the fact this was the second time he had made such remarks on the record.
The fact it was flippant and insensitive may be considered aggravating factors.
Well, technically he may be correct. He actually said Hitler was 'the best friend the Zionists ever had until he went mad and killed them all.'
The minor detail that he was wrong on every possible level and clearly was out to cause offence seems not to have registered with dear Ken.
I think the objection to what Ken said is that it is flippant and unsympathetic, and indicates a lack of appropriate awareness of the seriousness of the issues. Whether or not it is true or false in any objective sense doesn't really come into it.
No. The fact that it was false - and is in fact a trope of Holocaust deniers, having first been espoused by Paul Rassinier - is very clearly relevant, as is the fact this was the second time he had made such remarks on the record.
The fact it was flippant and insensitive may be considered aggravating factors.
I have read many of Cyclefree's rants . Forgive me, if I missed any mention of Palestinians being paid reparations for seizing their lands illegally and Israels soldiers receiving correct custodial sentences for killing Palestinians and not 9 months when 8 months was given to a teenage Palestinian girl for slapping an Israeli soldier.
It is you who is blind ! You cannot bring yourself to criticise the illegal occupation under International Law of Palestinian lands.
I've mentioned some of this stuff previously on here; in fact, many times.
There's another angle to this: there are no 'angels' in the Middle East, country-wise - which is quite annoying given he area's religious history!
Israel can behave terribly - but so have the Palestinians and the surrounding countries. The violence and extremism on both main sides of the conflict have fed each other, and it can be argued that only the extreme actions of the Israeli government - such as building the wall - have stopped most of the terrorism against them.
For instance, it might be helpful for the Palestinians to stop their rocket and mortar attacks against Israel, which continue on into this year - 174 a fortnight ago alone.
To make matters worse, other countries in the region, and in the wider world, have used the sides - and especially the Palestinians - for their own purposes. In many cases it has not been in their interests for there to be peace.
If you are truly interested in peace in the region - and that means peace for Jew, Palestinian, Christian and everyone else - then you have to criticise all sides when they do wrong, and praise them when they do right.
Labour fails on this count as well.
A long email. Yet you fail to mention land being seized illegally, reparations to be paid. I am not sure why Jews were paid reparations [ absolutely correctly ] but Palestinians should not be.
Just how deep is the well of pig-shit thick Labour candidates?
And has no-one vetting candidates at Labour HQ even learnt to switch on a computer?
There’s definitely a good business model in doing online vetting of political candidates. The difficulty is in persuading the major parties that it’s necessary, luckily every day brings more evidence to help the case.
I have read many of Cyclefree's rants . Forgive me, if I missed any mention of Palestinians being paid reparations for seizing their lands illegally and Israels soldiers receiving correct custodial sentences for killing Palestinians and not 9 months when 8 months was given to a teenage Palestinian girl for slapping an Israeli soldier.
It is you who is blind ! You cannot bring yourself to criticise the illegal occupation under International Law of Palestinian lands.
I've mentioned some of this stuff previously on here; in fact, many times.
There's another angle to this: there are no 'angels' in the Middle East, country-wise - which is quite annoying given he area's religious history!
Israel can behave terribly - but so have the Palestinians and the surrounding countries. The violence and extremism on both main sides of the conflict have fed each other, and it can be argued that only the extreme actions of the Israeli government - such as building the wall - have stopped most of the terrorism against them.
For instance, it might be helpful for the Palestinians to stop their rocket and mortar attacks against Israel, which continue on into this year - 174 a fortnight ago alone.
To make matters worse, other countries in the region, and in the wider world, have used the sides - and especially the Palestinians - for their own purposes. In many cases it has not been in their interests for there to be peace.
If you are truly interested in peace in the region - and that means peace for Jew, Palestinian, Christian and everyone else - then you have to criticise all sides when they do wrong, and praise them when they do right.
Labour fails on this count as well.
To be fair, Corbyn is perfectly happy to condemn all sides. The difficulty arises when only one side is doing something and he absent-mindedly forgets to condemn them.
But I shouldn't bother with reasoned arguments with Surby. He was never any good at them even in his old incarnation, and the fact he did exactly what he was denying doing is amusing but instructive.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
I have had an X5 since last October after several 525s and 520s. All great drives.
I see you’re very in touch with the working class then, high up in your ivory tower BMW X5...
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
I've had quite a good experience of railways today. I did the Chase Line from New Street to Rugeley. Still waiting on those overhead cables so we can have our direct service to Euston, which was promised for this time last year.
Rugeley Trent Valley is ludicrous. Four platforms six tracks and ooh, tree trains an hour. If they bought the nearby field and put parking on it, it could be the best parkway in the Midlands. As it is, it's got no pedestrian access, no housing, and less parking than Rugeley Town - so it's a ghost station!
What was annoying is I dutifully forked out for returns from Cannock to BNS and Cannock to RTV - and then my ticket was only inspected once so I could have got away with a return from BNS to RTV at 60% of the price.
Yet according to wiki, RTV gets more passengers than Town!
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
I've had quite a good experience of railways today. I did the Chase Line from New Street to Rugeley. Still waiting on those overhead cables so we can have our direct service to Euston, which was promised for this time last year.
Rugeley Trent Valley is ludicrous. Four platforms six tracks and ooh, tree trains an hour. If they bought the nearby field and put parking on it, it could be the best parkway in the Midlands. As it is, it's got no pedestrian access, no housing, and less parking than Rugeley Town - so it's a ghost station!
What was annoying is I dutifully forked out for returns from Cannock to BNS and Cannock to RTV - and then my ticket was only inspected once so I could have got away with a return from BNS to RTV at 60% of the price.
Yet according to wiki, RTV gets more passengers than Town!
People changing trains, presumably.
Edit - it should be noted it's far from easy to get to Rugeley Town as well. It's hidden down a backstreet behind an electrical substation. So that probably has an impact.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Euro membership has caused a great deal of hardship in Southern Europe, though.
When you have high unemployment and low growth it's pretty cold comfort that your currency has appreciated in value.
Even Greece is ahead of us in GDP growth now.
Debasing the currency has only ever been a short term measure. It is a sign of economic failure, not of success.
Yet France is falling behind us. Not something the forecasters saw when they said we'd be last within the G7. But hey, who gives a fuck about experts any more.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
I have had an X5 since last October after several 525s and 520s. All great drives.
I see you’re very in touch with the working class then, high up in your ivory tower BMW X5...
I have never claimed I was working class. Are you saying only the working class can be Socialists ?
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
I've had quite a good experience of railways today. I did the Chase Line from New Street to Rugeley. Still waiting on those overhead cables so we can have our direct service to Euston, which was promised for this time last year.
Rugeley Trent Valley is ludicrous. Four platforms six tracks and ooh, tree trains an hour. If they bought the nearby field and put parking on it, it could be the best parkway in the Midlands. As it is, it's got no pedestrian access, no housing, and less parking than Rugeley Town - so it's a ghost station!
What was annoying is I dutifully forked out for returns from Cannock to BNS and Cannock to RTV - and then my ticket was only inspected once so I could have got away with a return from BNS to RTV at 60% of the price.
What boils my piss is ‘Trains cancelled due to excess heat’
We built the Cairo to Khartoum railway ferfuxsake.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
I've had quite a good experience of railways today. I did the Chase Line from New Street to Rugeley. Still waiting on those overhead cables so we can have our direct service to Euston, which was promised for this time last year.
Rugeley Trent Valley is ludicrous. Four platforms six tracks and ooh, tree trains an hour. If they bought the nearby field and put parking on it, it could be the best parkway in the Midlands. As it is, it's got no pedestrian access, no housing, and less parking than Rugeley Town - so it's a ghost station!
What was annoying is I dutifully forked out for returns from Cannock to BNS and Cannock to RTV - and then my ticket was only inspected once so I could have got away with a return from BNS to RTV at 60% of the price.
What boils my piss is ‘Trains cancelled due to excess heat’
We built the Cairo to Khartoum railway ferfuxsake.
Didn't we have a problem in 2003 with railway lines actually buckling in the heat?
I assume it's an Elf an Safety thing that the Chunnel can't run without it's air con given there's no outside supply?
Could be. Is it supposed to be an angel? Are we? What relevance is that?
Chiding liberals for supporting Israel when it was a plucky underdog then criticising it when it's strong and assertive was your construction. Personally I'm entirely happy to admire plucky underdogs and despise brutish bullies, even when they're different stages in the evolution(sic) of the same person/entity.
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
I'm happy that you know rich people who started off poor, folk I know tend to reside between those extremes or have moved slightly between them, in both directions.
I don't recall the Right being entirely supportive of New Labour's currying favour with the rich, presumably by your somewhat monochrome lights because their natural constituency had transformed into 'the enemy'.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
Petrol or diesel? What engine size?
520cdi (diesel) and it really motors if you need it
TBQH then Big G I don't think that's very impressive fuel economy. I'd be disappointed to get less than 65mpg from my diesel over a journey of any length. However I appreciate if you were driving fast with a full load that would have made a difference.
Nearly all motorway and quite fast driving apart from the A9 - Perth to Inverness which has average speed cameras and is largely single carriageway. I have never had a car achieving over 60 mpg
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Risked a further offensive, er, I mean advance, er, I mean sortie, er, I mean trip into Welsh Valleys today, trying the Aberdare branch, the last of the trio of lines I needed to do to the northwest of Cardiff. There was a bit of rain going both outward and return, but it could have been worse. Now need only the Ebbw Vale line, and Barry to Maesteg via Bridgend to do the whole set of lines in and around Cardiff (also have done the GWR main line as far west as Swansea).
Corbyn will give ground in the end. That he was a rebel for so long without leaving the party shows, I think, that he won't abandon it nor will he countenance a split on his watch. I think he will give ground because while some of his strongest supporters think there is no problem in the party on this issue, he at least has said there is, whether or not people think his responses to that problem are adequate. As such he will come up with something to roll this over once again.
After all, it has been rumbling on for several years now, and they do something or people quiet down, then it flares up again a few months later. I see no reason that will not be able to continue.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
Petrol or diesel? What engine size?
520cdi (diesel) and it really motors if you need it
TBQH then Big G I don't think that's very impressive fuel economy. I'd be disappointed to get less than 65mpg from my diesel over a journey of any length. However I appreciate if you were driving fast with a full load that would have made a difference.
Nearly all motorway and quite fast driving apart from the A9 - Perth to Inverness which has average speed cameras and is largely single carriageway. I have never had a car achieving over 60 mpg
Have they still not dualled that stretch? It's long overdue for an upgrade.
I will admit my car has very exceptional fuel economy - its record for a journey of over 25 miles is 82mpg, and it once did Gloucester to Cambridge with passenger and luggage at 76.7. Which is why I am in a panic in case it fails its MOT next month. Any other car is going to be much more expensive to run!
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Risked a further offensive, er, I mean advance, er, I mean sortie, er, I mean trip into Welsh Valleys today, trying the Aberdare branch, the last of the trio of lines I needed to do to the northwest of Cardiff. There was a bit of rain going both outward and return, but it could have been worse. Now need only the Ebbw Vale line, and Barry to Maesteg via Bridgend to do the whole set of lines in and around Cardiff (also have done the GWR main line as far west as Swansea).
The line past Swansea is really pretty and at Carmarthen you can get to go over one of the last operational barrow crossings on the British railway network,
That Hoey couldn't find a single Labour member to vote against her No Confidence motion is pretty telling though. She is toast, and rightly so.
What was she doing in the Labour Party in the first place ? I am sure she will find like-minded people in the DUP or the Conservative Party or UKIP.
Party's change position over time, so even if someone was on the outliers previously, they wouldn't necessarily be ridiculous outliers. Plus people change. And, yes, there's probably a few who really are in the wrong party altogether, ideologically speaking, even allowing for a coalition of views, but they don't think of it that way because it doesn't fit their self image.
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Risked a further offensive, er, I mean advance, er, I mean sortie, er, I mean trip into Welsh Valleys today, trying the Aberdare branch, the last of the trio of lines I needed to do to the northwest of Cardiff. There was a bit of rain going both outward and return, but it could have been worse. Now need only the Ebbw Vale line, and Barry to Maesteg via Bridgend to do the whole set of lines in and around Cardiff (also have done the GWR main line as far west as Swansea).
That was brave of you Sunil. The sheep round those parts are vicious!
That Hoey couldn't find a single Labour member to vote against her No Confidence motion is pretty telling though. She is toast, and rightly so.
What was she doing in the Labour Party in the first place ? I am sure she will find like-minded people in the DUP or the Conservative Party or UKIP.
Labour's 1983 manifesto was pretty Euro-sceptic.
It's not just Euro-scepticism. She is pro-hunting, pro Marches, I think. Why can't someone else be the MP for Vauxhall as per the choice of the local members.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
I have had an X5 since last October after several 525s and 520s. All great drives.
I see you’re very in touch with the working class then, high up in your ivory tower BMW X5...
I have never claimed I was working class. Are you saying only the working class can be Socialists ?
If you are rich you are hypocritical. If you are poor you are envious. Frankly, if it weren't for the prospect of a better and fairer society I don't think many socialists would bother.
That Hoey couldn't find a single Labour member to vote against her No Confidence motion is pretty telling though. She is toast, and rightly so.
What was she doing in the Labour Party in the first place ? I am sure she will find like-minded people in the DUP or the Conservative Party or UKIP.
Labour's 1983 manifesto was pretty Euro-sceptic.
It's not just Euro-scepticism. She is pro-hunting, pro Marches, I think. Why can't someone else be the MP for Vauxhall as per the choice of the local members.
Have they still not dualled that stretch? It's long overdue for an upgrade.
I will admit my car has very exceptional fuel economy - its record for a journey of over 25 miles is 82mpg, and it once did Gloucester to Cambridge with passenger and luggage at 76.7. Which is why I am in a panic in case it fails its MOT next month. Any other car is going to be much more expensive to run!
The dualling of the A9 is a disgrace. It needed doing years ago and while some parts are being dualled it is pathetically slow. It has been a death trap for years but the average speed cameras have changed that and it is much safer but of course you can get trapped behind slower HGV's with lengthening queues
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Could be. Is it supposed to be an angel? Are we? What relevance is that?
Chiding liberals for supporting Israel when it was a plucky underdog then criticising it when it's strong and assertive was your construction. Personally I'm entirely happy to admire plucky underdogs and despise brutish bullies, even when they're different stages in the evolution(sic) of the same person/entity.
It's all about their view towards the Jews and why there is an elision between criticism of Jews and Israel. The Jews were granted a country formally by the UN and many (not, of course, the UK) supported that. Why? In part because the Jews had had a hell of a time and needed a break.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
So, in your own words, the Jews needed a break and the Palestinians had to lose their lands to accommodate that.
I repeat six million Jews were killed in the holocaust ! Palestinians did not kill even one of them. But they had to pay the price because "the Jews needed a break"
I think I mentioned this on a previous thread where the argument came up. There are lots of good reasons for the Jewish people to be given the land but no real reason for it to be taken from the Palestinians.
Which is bound to cause resistance, which has in turn been used to justify taking more land.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Or wait till the PCH bubble bursts and buy some excess stock (or low mileage return).
I believe that talk of splits is nearly always overrated and over stated. The fear of what happened to the SDP in a professional class with mortgages is palpable.
But I do find the suggestion that there might be a new grouping unequivocally committed to Leave in the event of a second referendum dangerously credible. Remainers are playing with fire. I think May gets that and will do her level best to avoid a scenario which would be horrendously divisive in the country and quite possibly terminal to the existence of her own party.
There is already a grouping unequivocally committed to Leave. It's called the Conservative party and it's doing immense damage to the country right now.
It’s not unequivocal, though. It has been ambiguous, ambivalent and indecisive in its attempts to keep the remainer minority on board. It cannot agree what it wants. Hence the current mess which remainers claim “proves” that it is all too difficult.
Blaming Remainers for the almighty mess that a government committed to Leave is making of Brexit is outrageous. At what point will Leavers start to accept that they and their ilk are completely screwing this up?
The point when Brexiteers get to make a decision. All the decisions to date have been made by remainers, albeit ones supposedly committed to leaving.
Is a remainer who is committed to leaving not a leaver?
One of the problems that has emerged is people not being allowed to move on from their 2016 position. May was lauded when she seemed to be looking for something harder, no issue with a former remainer running the show then (ok, in fairness some people were consistently critical of such), but any hint of something other than no deal being the preferred option for some, and suddenly the reason people cannot be trusted is they voted remain, even though as you note if someone is committed to leaving now, they are a leaver now.
In fairness some think even if committed to leave now a former remainer cannot grasp the mindset and what is needed appropriately, but I think that's nonsense personally. They could and can, and in any case the reason the government is in such a mess is not because former remainers are hijacking things but because the party and country are so divided and it has reacted badly to that. We know this to be the case because if it were so simple as a band of former remainers hijacking things, there would easily be the numbers to have prevented them from running the show for so long. Davis and Boris and the like still have no satisfactory explanation as to why if things were so obviously bad they did nothing for so long.
That Hoey couldn't find a single Labour member to vote against her No Confidence motion is pretty telling though. She is toast, and rightly so.
What was she doing in the Labour Party in the first place ? I am sure she will find like-minded people in the DUP or the Conservative Party or UKIP.
Party's change position over time, so even if someone was on the outliers previously, they wouldn't necessarily be ridiculous outliers. Plus people change. And, yes, there's probably a few who really are in the wrong party altogether, ideologically speaking, even allowing for a coalition of views, but they don't think of it that way because it doesn't fit their self image.
So, in your own words, the Jews needed a break and the Palestinians had to lose their lands to accommodate that.
I repeat six million Jews were killed in the holocaust ! Palestinians did not kill even one of them. But they had to pay the price because "the Jews needed a break"
My tuppence worth: the Palestinian Arabs got an absolutely shit deal in 1948. It would've been better, had the British Government had both the ability and the willpower under the circumstances of the time to do something effective about it, if Israel had not been created in the form that it was. Indeed, we would all have been much better off, then and now, if Germany had been permanently divided into half-a-dozen small states after the War, and the population of one of them (e.g. Bavaria) had been removed en masse and resettled in the others, so as to give the Jews a homeland in Europe instead.
However, since we do not possess a Tardis we can hardly send 20,000 heavily armed troops and a warning note to Clem Attlee back in time to correct the problem. We must deal with things as they are, which starts by recognising that the State of Israel within the 1948 borders must - having been conceded its right to exist by the UN - be allowed to stand, and must have its continuing security guaranteed. That, in turn, means that the occupation of lands seized after subsequent Arab invasions of Israel can only be ended as part of a grand bargain in which, amongst other things, all of the neighbours (and other hostile, mainly Muslim, states further afield) recognise the right of Israel to exist and agree to normalise relations with it, and the Islamist terror groups (notably Hamas and Hezbollah) are rooted out, in exchange for decolonisation of the occupied territories so that a Palestinian state can be established.
Imagining how hard that list of objectives is going to be to achieve, how long that might take, and how much diplomatic and economic pressure might need to be brought to bear on both sides to force a resolution, is truly sobering. The job may not be completed in our lifetime. But there is no other way. And examining the issues and the history behind them might also lead one to conclude both that Israel itself is not entirely at fault for all of these problems, and that, in any event, trying to share out exact proportions of the total amount of blame to each of the parties involved isn't going to get anybody very far.
O/T I've just purchased 310 euro for £301 in preparation for a holiday in Ireland. So much for a weak euro and a disaster of a currency. How long will it be before the GB pound earns that "accolade"?
It is just possible that the perennial PB Briteer proclamations of the collapse of the Eurozone exist in the same as Fox's trade deals.
1999: £1 = € 1.43. 2018: £1 = €1.12
Only one currency has imploded in the last 19 years - it is NOT the EURO.
Never mind 1999, you could get 1.4 or better throughout most of 2015. I know because I put a fair bit into a Euro account that year, the last of which I will be spending in Italy this September.
If we have a NO Deal then there will be another collapse of the pound to below parity.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
Buy one now
Buy a Jag instead. I strongly recommend it.
Have had both recently but my latest 520 is really a wonderful drive. 1200 miles round trip to North East Scotland at average consumption of 54.6 mpg is very safisfying
I have had an X5 since last October after several 525s and 520s. All great drives.
I see you’re very in touch with the working class then, high up in your ivory tower BMW X5...
I have never claimed I was working class. Are you saying only the working class can be Socialists ?
As a politician he was not somebody that I liked let alone respected, but I heard him interviewed at lunchtime on TMS after his election defeat. He was very reasonable, I would say likeable. I will watch his TV show, I think it should be good viewing.
So, in your own words, the Jews needed a break and the Palestinians had to lose their lands to accommodate that.
I repeat six million Jews were killed in the holocaust ! Palestinians did not kill even one of them. But they had to pay the price because "the Jews needed a break"
My tuppence worth: the Palestinian Arabs got an absolutely shit deal in 1948. It would've been better, had the British Government had both the ability and the willpower under the circumstances of the time to do something effective about it, if Israel had not been created in the form that it was. Indeed, we would all have been much better off, then and now, if Germany had been permanently divided into half-a-dozen small states after the War, and the population of one of them (e.g. Bavaria) had been removed en masse and resettled in the others, so as to give the Jews a homeland in Europe instead.
However, since we do not possess a Tardis we can hardly send 20,000 heavily armed troops and a warning note to Clem Attlee back in time to correct the problem. We must deal with things as they are, which starts by recognising that the State of Israel within the 1948 borders must - having been conceded its right to exist by the UN - be allowed to stand, and must have its continuing security guaranteed. That, in turn, means that the occupation of lands seized after subsequent Arab invasions of Israel can only be ended as part of a grand bargain in which, amongst other things, all of the neighbours (and other hostile, mainly Muslim, states further afield) recognise the right of Israel to exist and agree to normalise relations with it, and the Islamist terror groups (notably Hamas and Hezbollah) are rooted out, in exchange for decolonisation of the occupied territories so that a Palestinian state can be established.
Imagining how hard that list of objectives is going to be to achieve, how long that might take, and how much diplomatic and economic pressure might need to be brought to bear on both sides to force a resolution, is truly sobering. The job may not be completed in our lifetime. But there is no other way. And examining the issues and the history behind them might also lead one to conclude both that Israel itself is not entirely at fault for all of these problems, and that, in any event, trying to share out exact proportions of the total amount of blame to each of the parties involved isn't going to get anybody very far.
Can't argue with any of that, seems a fair idea. Unfortunately it seems incredibly unlikely but I would happily back that.
Comments
When you have high unemployment and low growth it's pretty cold comfort that your currency has appreciated in value.
The Brits did.
The decimation, even total collapse, of a party of government can occur in the course of a single electoral cycle, if the right circumstances exist, even where first-past-the-post is in use - see Canada in 1993.
We will desperately need it to be competitive in the EU after duties are imposed. Many of their exports will also suffer but not by the same margins. After all, if you want to drive a BMW, what do you do ?
The elephant in the room here may be Jenny Formby rather than Jeremy Corbyn, who after all would be kicked out of the party if the full definition were adopted:
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2018/03/11/three-reasons-why-jennie-formby-should-not-become-general-secretary-of-the-labour-party/
Which would be awkward given her - ahem - links to the real power in Labour, Len McCluskey.
Since then the Jews have become stronger and, in your words, indiscriminately brutish. And hence the left is no longer a fan of Israel and that is where the elision comes in because after all, Israel is a Jewish country and hence the criticism of both as though they were the same thing. It of course extends to other strong Jews such as Soros et al.
The Left is the same with rich people who started off poor - they go from needing saving, and thereby providing a natural constituency for the Left, to being part of the Imperialist Capitalist Boss Class and therefore the enemy.
Debasing the currency has only ever been a short term measure. It is a sign of economic failure, not of success.
Any Brexit outcome is now now likely to be lose/lose, but the UK has rather more to lose than the EU.
You do have relatively jovial tone, which is great, but your politics are what they have always been, extreme left - not my cup of tea but fair enough - you do however have to accept that carries a price, like any ideologically driven endeavour. At the moment that means protecting Corbyn by downplaying the the anti-semitism issue.
Both sides talked their fair share of bollocks, and FWIW at least the Leave campaign included some element of positivity and wasn't simply a bloody great dirge of dismal scare stories which essentially amounted to "listen, we know this EU thing is a shit sandwich, but eat it anyway or else what you've got coming next will be even worse."
The Remain campaign was amply resourced and had the Prime Minister, most of the Cabinet and the Parliamentary Tory Party, and virtually all of Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and Plaid, the Greens and the NI nationalists backing it to the hilt - i.e. the entire political establishment of the UK, except for the Tory Leavers, the DUP and Ukip. As well as a strong majority of influential voices in a range of other fields including business, academia and entertainment. The idea that it lost because of a red bus and a few Facebook ads, rather than through the utter uselessness of both David Cameron and its own efforts, is risible. And I'm not sure that endless circular arguments over whose campaign was or was not slightly less dirty two years ago are going to get us anywhere, either.
However, socialism being about as effectual as Donald Trump's chastity belt, in the 1980s Israel's economy collapsed in hyperinflation and low productivity, so radical political and economic changes were made. This led Israel to become wealthy, and successful - and therefore totally anathema to the left.
Up until that point the left were uninterested in Israeli behaviour because it was on their side. After all, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is undoubtedly comparable to the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, which many (Milne) were actually in favour of. But now good old-fashioned claims that the Jews only claim about themselves and money, staples of the 19th century socialist movement, can comfortably rear their heads again - and they do.
https://twitter.com/lordfoster88/status/1022773921509244930?s=19
Lineker's dad had a fruit and veg stall on Leicester market, on which Gary helped as a kid. Apparently he has no understanding of working class life though!
It is perfectly possible to transition from angel to devil in one day, and back again. The opinion that in 1967 Israel was the plucky underdog does not excuse their abuses 50 years later.
The minor detail that he was wrong on every possible level and clearly was out to cause offence seems not to have registered with dear Ken.
It is you who is blind ! You cannot bring yourself to criticise the illegal occupation under International Law of Palestinian lands.
To the British weather and railway system, I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
But really Surby - get with it.
I repeat six million Jews were killed in the holocaust ! Palestinians did not kill even one of them. But they had to pay the price because "the Jews needed a break"
One of the things that has happened since the pound has weakened (as some had been calling for pre-Brexit referendum) is that the trade deficit has fallen by between a third and a half (iirc), if such things are of interest.
Having said that, Tony Blair would never have allowed this problem to fester. Perhaps it was inevitable that a problem like this would eventually smother Corbyn. But those on the Right who are fanning the flames will be regretting the whole sorry affair if it leads to Corbyn quitting.
Rugeley Trent Valley is ludicrous. Four platforms six tracks and ooh, tree trains an hour. If they bought the nearby field and put parking on it, it could be the best parkway in the Midlands. As it is, it's got no pedestrian access, no housing, and less parking than Rugeley Town - so it's a ghost station!
What was annoying is I dutifully forked out for returns from Cannock to BNS and Cannock to RTV - and then my ticket was only inspected once so I could have got away with a return from BNS to RTV at 60% of the price.
Edit - besides, it would be extraordinarily embarrassing for the leader of the Labour Party to have to quit because of a race row. No prominent politician has been brought down for something like this since Churchill in 1930-31.
There's another angle to this: there are no 'angels' in the Middle East, country-wise - which is quite annoying given he area's religious history!
Israel can behave terribly - but so have the Palestinians and the surrounding countries. The violence and extremism on both main sides of the conflict have fed each other, and it can be argued that only the extreme actions of the Israeli government - such as building the wall - have stopped most of the terrorism against them.
For instance, it might be helpful for the Palestinians to stop their rocket and mortar attacks against Israel, which continue on into this year - 174 a fortnight ago alone.
To make matters worse, other countries in the region, and in the wider world, have used the sides - and especially the Palestinians - for their own purposes. In many cases it has not been in their interests for there to be peace.
If you are truly interested in peace in the region - and that means peace for Jew, Palestinian, Christian and everyone else - then you have to criticise all sides when they do wrong, and praise them when they do right.
Labour fails on this count as well.
Sadly, I am resigned to seeing us depart from the EU, but I can't see our glorious youngsters flocking back to work to do the jobs which were being done very efficiently by EU workers et al.
The fact it was flippant and insensitive may be considered aggravating factors.
https://twitter.com/RoflYssMtt/status/1022857822508384256?s=19
That Hoey couldn't find a single Labour member to vote against her No Confidence motion is pretty telling though. She is toast, and rightly so.
I am not sure why Jews were paid reparations [ absolutely correctly ] but Palestinians should not be.
But I shouldn't bother with reasoned arguments with Surby. He was never any good at them even in his old incarnation, and the fact he did exactly what he was denying doing is amusing but instructive.
ivory towerBMW X5...Edit - it should be noted it's far from easy to get to Rugeley Town as well. It's hidden down a backstreet behind an electrical substation. So that probably has an impact.
You should read a bit more.
We built the Cairo to Khartoum railway ferfuxsake.
I assume it's an Elf an Safety thing that the Chunnel can't run without it's air con given there's no outside supply?
I don't recall the Right being entirely supportive of New Labour's currying favour with the rich, presumably by your somewhat monochrome lights because their natural constituency had transformed into 'the enemy'.
After all, it has been rumbling on for several years now, and they do something or people quiet down, then it flares up again a few months later. I see no reason that will not be able to continue.
I will admit my car has very exceptional fuel economy - its record for a journey of over 25 miles is 82mpg, and it once did Gloucester to Cambridge with passenger and luggage at 76.7. Which is why I am in a panic in case it fails its MOT next month. Any other car is going to be much more expensive to run!
Which is bound to cause resistance, which has in turn been used to justify taking more land.
In fairness some think even if committed to leave now a former remainer cannot grasp the mindset and what is needed appropriately, but I think that's nonsense personally. They could and can, and in any case the reason the government is in such a mess is not because former remainers are hijacking things but because the party and country are so divided and it has reacted badly to that. We know this to be the case because if it were so simple as a band of former remainers hijacking things, there would easily be the numbers to have prevented them from running the show for so long. Davis and Boris and the like still have no satisfactory explanation as to why if things were so obviously bad they did nothing for so long.
However, since we do not possess a Tardis we can hardly send 20,000 heavily armed troops and a warning note to Clem Attlee back in time to correct the problem. We must deal with things as they are, which starts by recognising that the State of Israel within the 1948 borders must - having been conceded its right to exist by the UN - be allowed to stand, and must have its continuing security guaranteed. That, in turn, means that the occupation of lands seized after subsequent Arab invasions of Israel can only be ended as part of a grand bargain in which, amongst other things, all of the neighbours (and other hostile, mainly Muslim, states further afield) recognise the right of Israel to exist and agree to normalise relations with it, and the Islamist terror groups (notably Hamas and Hezbollah) are rooted out, in exchange for decolonisation of the occupied territories so that a Palestinian state can be established.
Imagining how hard that list of objectives is going to be to achieve, how long that might take, and how much diplomatic and economic pressure might need to be brought to bear on both sides to force a resolution, is truly sobering. The job may not be completed in our lifetime. But there is no other way. And examining the issues and the history behind them might also lead one to conclude both that Israel itself is not entirely at fault for all of these problems, and that, in any event, trying to share out exact proportions of the total amount of blame to each of the parties involved isn't going to get anybody very far.