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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The places where people would most like to live mostly voted R

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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,143

    viewcode said:



    Has anybody stuck up for Winchester or Lincoln yet?

    Lincoln is great - but I live in Lincoln so I'm a bit biased. ;)

    No probs. I too think it is nice.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044
    Why are all of the options cities?

    Get the Yorkshire Dales, Lake District and other rural idylls on the list.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044

    Started a kind of mini railway campaign in the Welsh Valleys over the last few weeks.
    Advanced as far as Treherbert in the Rhondda Valley today. On Monday it was Merthyr Tydfil, last Friday did Coryton and Radyr via Ninian Park, back in June did Barry Island and Penarth, at the end of May did Cardiff Bay to Queen Street, and way back in April did the main line from Newport to Swansea.

    So in the Glamorgan area that just leaves the Ebbw Vale, Rhymney and Aberdare branches, and Barry to Bridgend and on to Maesteg. Of course, doing Shrewsbury to Swansea and everything west of Swansea will require some strategic planning :)

    I've done the line to Milford Haven. Plenty of Haven, but not much Milf.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    Saltburn was a pleasant surprise - right at the end of the rail line through industrial Middlesbrough and Redcar!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    But - let’s be honest - the list misses out the best place in the UK: Cumbria - stunning lakes, mountains, the sea, good restaurants, views to die for and some of the best beaches in the UK.

    Possibly true, but if you are going to bring landscape in to consideration we have to start talking about the Highlands


    Ah but Cumbria has no midges!

    I spent one wonderful summer in Pitlochry so, yes, the Highlands are special.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Started a kind of mini railway campaign in the Welsh Valleys over the last few weeks.
    Advanced as far as Treherbert in the Rhondda Valley today. On Monday it was Merthyr Tydfil, last Friday did Coryton and Radyr via Ninian Park, back in June did Barry Island and Penarth, at the end of May did Cardiff Bay to Queen Street, and way back in April did the main line from Newport to Swansea.

    So in the Glamorgan area that just leaves the Ebbw Vale, Rhymney and Aberdare branches, and Barry to Bridgend and on to Maesteg. Of course, doing Shrewsbury to Swansea and everything west of Swansea will require some strategic planning :)

    I've done the line to Milford Haven. Plenty of Haven, but not much Milf.
    Is that because in real life you bear no resemblance to your avatar the the milf magnet.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044

    Saltburn was a pleasant surprise - right at the end of the rail line through industrial Middlesbrough and Redcar!

    To be pedantic, the line carries on to Boulby potash mine, but you'd have to go on a railtour to get that in the book.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    kingbongo said:

    reposted - curse of the New Thread

    kingbongo said:

    http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/july/tradoc_155717.pdf

    considering the language used by the EU here when discussing trade with Japan can anybody explain to me why the language is so different with the UK - agreeing to use international standards for cars is deemed a positive for Japan but stupid and impossible for the UK for
    example -
    free trade with Japan will bring huge benefits but for the UK this can’t be discussed without FOM etc - I am genuinely puzzled

    I think there is little doubt brexit has been a mess but the poses struck by the Commission mean that instead of getting the UK issue dealt with they have stored up decades more having ng to manage the UK problem child - from blockading the UK to readmitting the UK the problem has not been solved - at some point the French will notice and Barnier won’t seem so smart

    To answer you question of FOM. This is because Japan did a FTA and what May is asking for is all the benefits of membership of the single market but without FOM, money. May is not asking for a free trade deal (by a standard definition of one which is no tariffs different regulatory authorities, but rules applied with out discrimination).
    Yes but you could argue that the reason she has chosen this hybrid model is that the EU took an FTA off the table by saying that it could only happen if we surrender jurisdiction over NI which is a complete non starter.

    The EU are basically saying that the only way we can leave without dividing the UK is accept EEA+CU which is incompatible with the referendum.

    We need to offer them a straight choice between CETA + Maxfac and no backstop and No Deal. No other options are deliverable.
    I think you are describing effect not cause. My view.
    As part of the Dec deal when Arlene threw her toys out of the pram the EU granted NI all the benefits of the single market with no FOM or cash. The British negotiating team, i.e the Civil service saw this and thought "We will have some of that."
    The negotiating position changed to - well you have offered it to NI, we can not split the UK up so we will have some of that as well.
    Hence EU position Non NI is special. UK answer "We are special too as we can not break the UK up."
    I would prefer another solution but I can not fault our team for driving a massive wedge through the EU stance.
    The best negotiating team in the world look like rank amateurs.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    London is so dominant that in effect it fulfils the role of both first and second city.

    Manchester is in effect second city, as capital of the North. This is only a recent phenomenon, though, ie from about the mid 90s onwards.

    Even within their regions, second tier British cities barely function as capitals. Do people of the West look to Bristol? The Midlands meanwhile is divided between Birmingham, Nottingham and Leicester.

    Another interesting and unusual pattern in British cities: the pairing.

    Most famously Liverpool/Manchester but see also Leeds/Bradford, Southampton/Portsmouth, Nottingham/Derby and maybe even Bristol/Cardiff.
    Manchester's pre-eminence among English cities outside London dates from the 19th century, but remains true. "What Manchester does today the world does tomorrow."
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044

    Started a kind of mini railway campaign in the Welsh Valleys over the last few weeks.
    Advanced as far as Treherbert in the Rhondda Valley today. On Monday it was Merthyr Tydfil, last Friday did Coryton and Radyr via Ninian Park, back in June did Barry Island and Penarth, at the end of May did Cardiff Bay to Queen Street, and way back in April did the main line from Newport to Swansea.

    So in the Glamorgan area that just leaves the Ebbw Vale, Rhymney and Aberdare branches, and Barry to Bridgend and on to Maesteg. Of course, doing Shrewsbury to Swansea and everything west of Swansea will require some strategic planning :)

    I've done the line to Milford Haven. Plenty of Haven, but not much Milf.
    Is that because in real life you bear no resemblance to your avatar the the milf magnet.
    The resemblance is more political than physical!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1020413060014641152?s=21

    Collective responsibility.... ;)
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    There really is no start to Ms Leadsom's talents.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    RobD said:

    twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1020413060014641152?s=21

    Collective responsibility.... ;)
    Collective irresponsibility more like.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    The Spanish are quite correct to tax her income from that source.
    Yup - like most of roger's stories including the cafe owner employing illegals at low wages - his cries for sympathy are 1.

    People on the fiddle and 2. Nowt to do with Brexit.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    The Spanish are quite correct to tax her income from that source.
    We haven't left that so nothing like that should be changing for the moment.
    It is completely unrelated to Brexit - all income in Spain is taxable in Spain whether earned in Spain or any other country except , in the case of the UK, for State pensions like the OAP/Police/civil Service, etc. These remain taxed in the UK and are declared in Spain but not subject to tax.. For the rest there is a double tax treaty so once her income is taxed by Spain it will no longer be taxed in the UK
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    All this shows is that Channel 4 people have little knowledge of their country. All those places (though I do not know Nottingham or Hull) are pretty nice places. The ones I would like least, tbh, are Brighton (too up itself) and Cambridge - far too flat).

    Brighton is great. Unique.

    Some people say Brighton was absolutely awful in the 1980s.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903

    Saltburn was a pleasant surprise - right at the end of the rail line through industrial Middlesbrough and Redcar!

    To be pedantic, the line carries on to Boulby potash mine, but you'd have to go on a railtour to get that in the book.
    To be even more pedantic, Saltburn station is on its own single track branch diverging from the Boulby line.

    Hey, this is PB after all :)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,678
    AndyJS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    All this shows is that Channel 4 people have little knowledge of their country. All those places (though I do not know Nottingham or Hull) are pretty nice places. The ones I would like least, tbh, are Brighton (too up itself) and Cambridge - far too flat).

    Brighton is great. Unique.

    Some people say Brighton was absolutely awful in the 1980s.
    I remember it. It was alright. Like most coastal cities has interesting bits. But never dull.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    But - let’s be honest - the list misses out the best place in the UK: Cumbria - stunning lakes, mountains, the sea, good restaurants, views to die for and some of the best beaches in the UK.

    Possibly true, but if you are going to bring landscape in to consideration we have to start talking about the Highlands


    Ah but Cumbria has no midges!

    I spent one wonderful summer in Pitlochry so, yes, the Highlands are special.
    I'm planning to spend a week in Keswick, probably self-catering, possibly in a hotel. Any recommendations?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Hard luck Yorkshire ccc tonight,please adil Rashid,find another county lad.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    RobD said:

    twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1020413060014641152?s=21

    Collective responsibility.... ;)
    ? She has supported it publicly since the Cabinet agreed it. That is pretty well exactly what collective responsibility is - unless the suggestion is she leaked it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    Jonathan said:

    AndyJS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    All this shows is that Channel 4 people have little knowledge of their country. All those places (though I do not know Nottingham or Hull) are pretty nice places. The ones I would like least, tbh, are Brighton (too up itself) and Cambridge - far too flat).

    Brighton is great. Unique.

    Some people say Brighton was absolutely awful in the 1980s.
    I remember it. It was alright. Like most coastal cities has interesting bits. But never dull.

    Three words:

    Volk's Electric Railway :)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    But - let’s be honest - the list misses out the best place in the UK: Cumbria - stunning lakes, mountains, the sea, good restaurants, views to die for and some of the best beaches in the UK.

    Possibly true, but if you are going to bring landscape in to consideration we have to start talking about the Highlands


    Ah but Cumbria has no midges!

    I spent one wonderful summer in Pitlochry so, yes, the Highlands are special.
    I'm planning to spend a week in Keswick, probably self-catering, possibly in a hotel. Any recommendations?
    Ile de Re?
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    But - let’s be honest - the list misses out the best place in the UK: Cumbria - stunning lakes, mountains, the sea, good restaurants, views to die for and some of the best beaches in the UK.

    Possibly true, but if you are going to bring landscape in to consideration we have to start talking about the Highlands


    Ah but Cumbria has no midges!

    I spent one wonderful summer in Pitlochry so, yes, the Highlands are special.
    I'm planning to spend a week in Keswick, probably self-catering, possibly in a hotel. Any recommendations?
    I recommend getting off PB and googling “accommodation in Keswick”.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    felix said:

    RobD said:

    twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1020413060014641152?s=21

    Collective responsibility.... ;)
    ? She has supported it publicly since the Cabinet agreed it. That is pretty well exactly what collective responsibility is - unless the suggestion is she leaked it.
    That was my point too. She can express her dislike in private, but in public she has to support it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,169
    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903

    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.

    The railway station is reasonably impressive ::)
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    edited July 2018
    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.

    Didn't we used to have a great poster from Stoke - one of the more "real world" ones? She always seemed to stick up for the place. Last time I can recall her posting she was so fed up with Gove that she was setting up her plans for leaving teaching... wonder what she's up to now.
  • TonyTony Posts: 159

    Yes but you could argue that the reason she has chosen this hybrid model is that the EU took an FTA off the table by saying that it could only happen if we surrender jurisdiction over NI which is a complete non starter.

    The EU are basically saying that the only way we can leave without dividing the UK is accept EEA+CU which is incompatible with the referendum.

    We need to offer them a straight choice between CETA + Maxfac and no backstop and No Deal. No other options are deliverable.
    I think you are describing effect not cause. My view.
    As part of the Dec deal when Arlene threw her toys out of the pram the EU granted NI all the benefits of the single market with no FOM or cash. The British negotiating team, i.e the Civil service saw this and thought "We will have some of that."
    The negotiating position changed to - well you have offered it to NI, we can not split the UK up so we will have some of that as well.
    Hence EU position Non NI is special. UK answer "We are special too as we can not break the UK up."
    I would prefer another solution but I can not fault our team for driving a massive wedge through the EU stance.
    The best negotiating team in the world look like rank amateurs.
    Think this is spot on, Barnier then realised the mistake they'd made allowing the potential UK wide backstop in December, which is why their March paper was significantly different/stonger to the December agreement.
    A UK wide backstop for goods with no FOM/Payments would be the deal of the century and Robbins would need an bigger bonus.

    The EU side have now been pushed into a corner , you want a backstop, fine we'll accept UK wide for goods/agriculture , which is what was agreed as possible in December. Once we're in that the UK would never leave it :)
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606

    Started a kind of mini railway campaign in the Welsh Valleys over the last few weeks.
    Advanced as far as Treherbert in the Rhondda Valley today. On Monday it was Merthyr Tydfil, last Friday did Coryton and Radyr via Ninian Park, back in June did Barry Island and Penarth, at the end of May did Cardiff Bay to Queen Street, and way back in April did the main line from Newport to Swansea.

    So in the Glamorgan area that just leaves the Ebbw Vale, Rhymney and Aberdare branches, and Barry to Bridgend and on to Maesteg. Of course, doing Shrewsbury to Swansea and everything west of Swansea will require some strategic planning :)

    I've done the line to Milford Haven. Plenty of Haven, but not much Milf.
    Careful what you say now lads. My neck of the woods.
    Train journey from Carmarthen to Llanelli very pleasant running along the Towy and Burry estuaries.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757

    AndyJS said:

    Xenon said:

    AndyJS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    All this shows is that Channel 4 people have little knowledge of their country. All those places (though I do not know Nottingham or Hull) are pretty nice places. The ones I would like least, tbh, are Brighton (too up itself) and Cambridge - far too flat).

    Nottingham is a pretty nice place in my experience. Too many concrete buildings in the centre, but that's true of most cities/towns including Oxford and Cambridge.
    Nottingham is a nice city, albeit quite small.

    The problem is that almost all of the surrounding areas where people live are really dodgy.
    Which places did you have in mind? Rushcliffe and Broxtowe aren't bad.
    And you get to have Crazy Anna or Ken as your MP, what’s not to love?
    Anna Soubry on The Last Leg doing very well. Just called Donald Trump "a dickhead" and doesn't seem to think much of JRM.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.

    A strange thing about the Stoke accent is that they pronounce words like book and look the way most Scottish people do.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.

    Didn't we used to have a great poster from Stoke - one of the more "real world" ones? She always seemed to stick up for the place. Last time I can recall her posting she was so fed up with Gove that she was setting up her plans for leaving teaching... wonder what she's up to now.
    When I worked in teaching/lecturing, there was always someone in the staff-room who would declare loudly every summer term that they had finally, definitively had enough this time and they really were going to hand their notice in and go do something else with their lives. Just like they said the year before. And the year before. And often according to the older heads who'd known them that long, several decades before that... I did wonder how many drafts of their resignation letter they might have got through down the years, or if they ever got that far. They may have been natural grouchers but I suspect they told everyone within earshot because they thought it would work like telling everyone your new year's resolution and produce a social pressure that ensures this time you'll follow through with it. (Though apparently this strategy is far less effective at narrowing the intention-behaviour gap than is commonly believed.) Or maybe they hoped news would filter up to the bosses, who in their eagerness to meet staff retention targets would go easy on them when setting the timetables for next year...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,169
    edited July 2018
    AndyJS said:

    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.

    A strange thing about the Stoke accent is that they pronounce words like book and look the way most Scottish people do.
    I spent my teenage years in and around the place. Particular fun was had playing the local semi-pro cricket scene...the snowflakes that do their nut over Rudyard Kipling poems would be horrified by the "helpful comments" sent my way during my away games.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    But - let’s be honest - the list misses out the best place in the UK: Cumbria - stunning lakes, mountains, the sea, good restaurants, views to die for and some of the best beaches in the UK.

    Possibly true, but if you are going to bring landscape in to consideration we have to start talking about the Highlands


    Ah but Cumbria has no midges!

    I spent one wonderful summer in Pitlochry so, yes, the Highlands are special.
    I'm planning to spend a week in Keswick, probably self-catering, possibly in a hotel. Any recommendations?
    I recommend getting off PB and googling “accommodation in Keswick”.
    The PB hivemind is a great place for personal recommendations. When I have asked for advice about various bits and bobs over the years I have always had extremely helpful responses from all corners of the political spectrum - there's something to be said, particularly in more polarised or grumpy times on here, for conversation topics that cleave political divides ... where "cleave" could take either its meaning of splitting apart or sticking together!
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457
    edited July 2018
    Silly silly day for brexit. Remainers and Brexiteers hit media to claim Barnier rips the blueprint to shreds. He didn’t at all, large chunks of it he called progress. Hardly a surprise. If Barnier didn’t like much of the blueprint, on what basis did Boris and Davis resign.

    Meanwhile, over last fortnight everyone in Britain has torn at the blueprint, left, right, leave remain, and rightly dubbed it the vacuous mound of crap it is. But the moment someone in Europe, whose job it is to comment on it, offered some criticism to part of it, The Mail and The Express indignantly scream how dare they, HOW DARE THEY.

    My conclusion is Mail and Express are edited by people who are becoming out of touch with actual developments.

    Something else of concern, over the last few days Matt seems completely out of form. Maybe Matt has taken a holiday and someone is trying to pass themselves off as him?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,020
    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    Well it sounds a lot better than loads of British people having their homes demolished after buying them in good faith whilst in the EU.
    Yup. That happened to a sister of a very good friend, about 10 years ago. They bought a seaside house and business, the Spanish decided to demolish it, as it had been built "illegally". They had no idea. The EU did fuck all to help them.
    'Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,020
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    So, about this second vote..
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    AndyJS said:

    So it seems for once we have an agreement on PB....nobody likes Stoke nor would want to move there.

    A strange thing about the Stoke accent is that they pronounce words like book and look the way most Scottish people do.
    And on Merseyside too?
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited July 2018
    SeanT said:


    Oi. Cornwall looks to Cornwall, never Devon. NEVER!!!

    Quite seriously, Cornwall sees itself as almost a nation. Its capital is not across the Tamar.

    The Cornish flag flying everywhere must help with that. Seems to have caught on in Devon too. (Not sure how it has transferred there, but the last time I was in Lincolnshire I saw quite a few Lincolnshire flags on display - not as many as Devon or Cornwall but enough to notice. The white rose flies quite often in East Yorkshire and I've occasionally seen the three seaxes fluttering in Essex.)

    Trying to replicate the biculturalism of Wales by writing signposts in both English and Cornish - something of which you approve or disapprove? Was meaning to ask you this earlier this week.

    I'd been thinking, if the (spoof) Essex Liberation Front were to reform from their 20-year hiatus, might they launch an East Saxon linguistic and cultural revival to reclaim the local heritage from the shadow of the London commuter nexus? A couple of hundred nutjobs dressed up as ancient warriors, writing a "modernised" Anglo-Saxon dictionary and having prolonged arguments over its pronunciation and which period of Anglo-Saxon speech is most "authentic", setting up an Anglo-Saxon creche to get the young'uns speaking it, pressuring one of the local councils to put their cultural spending to the furtherance of their minority rights/oddball hobby... can we expect to see signs pointing to the local Biblioþéce for example? Given what has been achieved in Cornwall the speculation doesn't seem so utterly outlandish.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    Well it sounds a lot better than loads of British people having their homes demolished after buying them in good faith whilst in the EU.
    Yup. That happened to a sister of a very good friend, about 10 years ago. They bought a seaside house and business, the Spanish decided to demolish it, as it had been built "illegally". They had no idea. The EU did fuck all to help them.
    'Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'
    Because it will never command the authority of a proper democratic government, as there is no EU demos to which it can answer - because, languages, etc - and yet it will always aspire to be that Federal, democratic government.

    The EU is a child with a non-fatal yet crippling congenital defect.
    As they say: whoosh
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    You say it like it's a bad thing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    As it stands the choices are 2nd vote or Corbyn.

    Things could change, but it seems unlikely. May's plan is dead. JRM's plan is dead. Boris has no plan.

    So, tory activist - what's it gonna be punk?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    The Conservative Party doesn't really exist at the moment.
    Neither does the Labour Party

    They're just two wards in the Brexit Derangement Syndrome hospital
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    You say it like it's a bad thing.
    Theresa May and any other potential Tory leader would see it as a bad thing, which is why it won't happen.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    As it stands the choices are 2nd vote or Corbyn.

    Things could change, but it seems unlikely. May's plan is dead. JRM's plan is dead. Boris has no plan.

    So, tory activist - what's it gonna be punk?

    No deal Brexit likely means a term of Corbyn. A second vote would tear the Tory Party in two, leading to three terms of Corbyn.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    You say it like it's a bad thing.
    Theresa May and any other potential Tory leader would see it as a bad thing, which is why it won't happen.
    It might. Because it turns out to be the only way out of the cul-de-sac they have created.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,169

    twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1020434155732111360

    To be fair, there is absolutely nothing May could say or do that wouldn't result in Bad Al tweeting it is all absolutely crap.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    Well it sounds a lot better than loads of British people having their homes demolished after buying them in good faith whilst in the EU.
    Yup. That happened to a sister of a very good friend, about 10 years ago. They bought a seaside house and business, the Spanish decided to demolish it, as it had been built "illegally". They had no idea. The EU did fuck all to help them.
    'Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'
    Imagine. The Express stories would write themselves.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    Well it sounds a lot better than loads of British people having their homes demolished after buying them in good faith whilst in the EU.
    Yup. That happened to a sister of a very good friend, about 10 years ago. They bought a seaside house and business, the Spanish decided to demolish it, as it had been built "illegally". They had no idea. The EU did fuck all to help them.
    'Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'
    Because it will never command the authority of a proper democratic government, as there is no EU demos to which it can answer - because, languages, etc - and yet it will always aspire to be that Federal, democratic government.

    The EU is a child with a non-fatal yet crippling congenital defect.
    As they say: whoosh
    WTF are you on about, you old cretin.
    Hey don't be angry at me just because you're too dim to understand when a poster on an internet chat room makes a joke and you take it deadly seriously.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394

    As it stands the choices are 2nd vote or Corbyn.

    Things could change, but it seems unlikely. May's plan is dead. JRM's plan is dead. Boris has no plan.

    So, tory activist - what's it gonna be punk?

    You've frequently assured us that Brexit will never happen, so what is there to be concerned about?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:


    Oi. Cornwall looks to Cornwall, never Devon. NEVER!!!

    Quite seriously, Cornwall sees itself as almost a nation. Its capital is not across the Tamar.

    The Cornish flag flying everywhere must help with that. Seems to have caught on in Devon too. (Not sure how it has transferred there, but the last time I was in Lincolnshire I saw quite a few Lincolnshire flags on display - not as many as Devon or Cornwall but enough to notice. The white rose flies quite often in East Yorkshire and I've occasionally seen the three seaxes fluttering in Essex.)

    Trying to replicate the biculturalism of Wales by writing signposts in both English and Cornish - something of which you approve or disapprove? Was meaning to ask you this earlier this week.

    I'd been thinking, if the (spoof) Essex Liberation Front were to reform from their 20-year hiatus, might they launch an East Saxon linguistic and cultural revival to reclaim the local heritage from the shadow of the London commuter nexus? A couple of hundred nutjobs dressed up as ancient warriors, writing a "modernised" Anglo-Saxon dictionary and having prolonged arguments over its pronunciation and which period of Anglo-Saxon speech is most "authentic", setting up an Anglo-Saxon creche to get the young'uns speaking it, pressuring one of the local councils to put their cultural spending to the furtherance of their minority rights/oddball hobby... can we expect to see signs pointing to the local Biblioþéce for example? Given what has been achieved in Cornwall the speculation doesn't seem so utterly outlandish.
    No one really demands the signs, apart from a few extreme nutters (many of them in my own family: one of my cousins is the founder of Cornish Solidarity, and they are the IRA of Cornwall, if it ever got violent).

    The language is dead. Sad but true. It was never much of a language anyway. But the Cornish are still (rightly) proud of their long and ancient history, from the Celtic tin-streamers to the Victorian industrialists.

    e.g. my family (mum, dad, sister, cousins, nephews, nieces, scattered across west Cornwall) almost certainly live in exactly the same area their ancestors settled in about 3000-2000BC. Few people can say that.

    Perhaps only the Basques can boast a provably longer lineage: as the same people living in the same, small, definable place, over so much time
    The Fears can be traced back to the cavemen of Cheddar Gorge.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898
    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    No York. Invalid list.

    I agree on that. I had two great years working at the university in York and it is perhaps the best city anywhere.
    Thirded. Spend about a week a year there for work, and it seems to have everything that a city needs. Including a decent racecourse!
    I have never been in York, but I have flown over it several times including thermalling a DG-505 belonging to the BGA one sunny afternoon. It is very, very flat around there (especially from 7,000 feet) and I can see why it might flood.
    York is great. The Minster, the Jorvik Centre, the almost perfectly intact Medieval walls, and a maze of charming old streets.
    Are they not a bit of a Shambles?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Even Derbyshire has its own flag now, unofficially adopted in 2006.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Derbyshire
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    Well it sounds a lot better than loads of British people having their homes demolished after buying them in good faith whilst in the EU.
    Yup. That happened to a sister of a very good friend, about 10 years ago. They bought a seaside house and business, the Spanish decided to demolish it, as it had been built "illegally". They had no idea. The EU did fuck all to help them.
    'Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'
    Because it will never command the authority of a proper democratic government, as there is no EU demos to which it can answer - because, languages, etc - and yet it will always aspire to be that Federal, democratic government.

    The EU is a child with a non-fatal yet crippling congenital defect.
    As they say: whoosh
    WTF are you on about, you old cretin.
    Hey don't be angry at me just because you're too dim to understand when a poster on an internet chat room makes a joke and you take it deadly seriously.
    Jeez. I got the fucking joke, you utter dullard. Take Modafinal, and raise your game.
    In your current state I very much doubt you got the joke. Or if you did your agent should be worried at your fumbling, pedestrian response.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited July 2018
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    Ideal timing to get out would have been Maastricht I think. That made the direction of travel absolutely legally clear (it removed a lot of doubts of the "people talk about it, but it'll never actually happen" kind), it was obvious Britain would not be following the same direction as the rest of the major members, and set up the tensions that would inevitably follow from this.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    What does a second vote achieve?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    Sean_F said:

    As it stands the choices are 2nd vote or Corbyn.

    Things could change, but it seems unlikely. May's plan is dead. JRM's plan is dead. Boris has no plan.

    So, tory activist - what's it gonna be punk?

    You've frequently assured us that Brexit will never happen, so what is there to be concerned about?
    True. But I have never had any idea how it will not happen. Just a strong feeling it wont.

    As it looks today, and things change rapidly, the way it wont happen is a 2nd vote.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    Brexit remains possible, but the Tory party is incapable of implementing it. Two years post vote it remains an internal rancorous argument about what Brexit actually should be.

    If those 2years had been spent on proper planning, construction of border faciities, setting up parallel regulatory agencies, recruitment of civil service and customs staff at etc, it would have been do -able.

    It would have to have included a recognition of costs, both direct and indirect, and to both public and private sectors, but definitely possible.

    The Tories wanted to do it in the cheap, which is why we are in the current mess.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,754

    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    Ideal timing to get out would have been Maastricht I think. That made the direction of travel absolutely legally clear (it removed a lot of doubts of the "people talk about it, but it'll never actually happen" kind), it was obvious Britain would not be following the same direction as the rest of the major members, and set up the tensions that would inevitably follow from this.
    It wasn’t obvious at that time. We went on in the next election to elect Blair in a landslide. He could have used his political capital to win a referendum on the Euro, but instead he blew it...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Roger said:

    I was talking to a guy this afternoon who told me the following story.

    His 80 year old father voted Brexit because he believed it would mean the NHS would get extra money. Meanwhile his sister who lives in Spain and lives off the income from renting her property in London has been told she will now have to pay Spanish tax on this income.

    As a result she can't afford to live in Spain any longer so she and her family are having to move back and her father is heartbroken.

    Brexit is a dogs breakfast and Cameron should be shot

    Well it sounds a lot better than loads of British people having their homes demolished after buying them in good faith whilst in the EU.
    Yup. That happened to a sister of a very good friend, about 10 years ago. They bought a seaside house and business, the Spanish decided to demolish it, as it had been built "illegally". They had no idea. The EU did fuck all to help them.
    'Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'
    Because it will never command the authority of a proper democratic government, as there is no EU demos to which it can answer - because, languages, etc - and yet it will always aspire to be that Federal, democratic government.

    The EU is a child with a non-fatal yet crippling congenital defect.
    As they say: whoosh
    WTF are you on about, you old cretin.
    Hey don't be angry at me just because you're too dim to understand when a poster on an internet chat room makes a joke and you take it deadly seriously.
    Jeez. I got the fucking joke, you utter dullard. Take Modafinal, and raise your game.
    In your current state I very much doubt you got the joke. Or if you did your agent should be worried at your fumbling, pedestrian response.
    You seriously believe I didn't detect the irony in:

    "Why oh why won't the EU interfere in the planning laws of its member states?'

    Okaaaaaaay
    Yep. In your current state I do. Or maybe your account has been hacked by @HYUFD.

    But anyway I'm off to bed so enjoy your last word and I hope you have a great time posting on the internet while your wife is out clubbing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    The problem is the impossible timing weight that Boris and co put on all this.

    The UK could leave the EU, in an orderly manner, but it would need a decade of transition. A length of time no politician, especially Boris, could be bothered with.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,447
    edited July 2018
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:


    Oi. Cornwall looks to Cornwall, never Devon. NEVER!!!

    Quite seriously, Cornwall sees itself as almost a nation. Its capital is not across the Tamar.

    The Cornishernised" Anglo-Saxon dictionary and having prolonged arguments over its pronunciation and which period of Anglo-Saxon speech is most "authentic", setting up an Anglo-Saxon creche to get the young'uns speaking it, pressuring one of the local councils to put their cultural spending to the furtherance of their minority rights/oddball hobby... can we expect to see signs pointing to the local Biblioþéce for example? Given what has been achieved in Cornwall the speculation doesn't seem so utterly outlandish.
    No one really demands the signs, apart from a few extreme nutters (many of them in my own family: one of my cousins is the founder of Cornish Solidarity, and they are the IRA of Cornwall, if it ever got violent).

    The language is dead. Sad but true. It was never much of a language anyway. But the Cornish are still (rightly) proud of their long and ancient history, from the Celtic tin-streamers to the Victorian industrialists.

    e.g. my family (mum, dad, sister, cousins, nephews, nieces, scattered across west Cornwall) almost certainly live in exactly the same area their ancestors settled in about 3000-2000BC. Few people can say that.

    Perhaps only the Basques can boast a provably longer lineage: as the same people living in the same, small, definable place, over so much time
    The Fears can be traced back to the cavemen of Cheddar Gorge.
    Indeed. As I understand it, the scientific consensus right now is that most white Britons probably descend from the first wave of migrants after the Ice Age (intriguingly, they came from the Basque Country, I think)

    The difference with Cornwall is the unique language, surnames, placenames, etc, and all of it in such a small distinct region, so you can say (without DNA analysis) that they have continuously inhabited their tiny chunk of Britain for 3000 or even 5000 years.

    Kernow Bys Vyken!
    I doubt it. The Basque language is completely unrelated to any other language, and their DNA also has unique markers. Whereas Cornish, as I understand it, is a Celtic language, and the Celtic invasion of the British Isles seems to have happened from about 1000 BC onwards.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    NEW THREAD FOLKS!!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    What does a second vote achieve?
    It puts the choice back to the people
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394

    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    The problem is the impossible timing weight that Boris and co put on all this.

    The UK could leave the EU, in an orderly manner, but it would need a decade of transition. A length of time no politician, especially Boris, could be bothered with.
    A50 is designed to prevent leaving in an orderly manner.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,784

    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    Ideal timing to get out would have been Maastricht I think. That made the direction of travel absolutely legally clear (it removed a lot of doubts of the "people talk about it, but it'll never actually happen" kind), it was obvious Britain would not be following the same direction as the rest of the major members, and set up the tensions that would inevitably follow from this.
    It wasn’t obvious at that time. We went on in the next election to elect Blair in a landslide. He could have used his political capital to win a referendum on the Euro, but instead he blew it...
    Thank God. I may be Remain, but the Euro is a disaster.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    SeanT said:

    No one really demands the signs, apart from a few extreme nutters (many of them in my own family: one of my cousins is the founder of Cornish Solidarity, and they are the IRA of Cornwall, if it ever got violent).

    The language is dead. Sad but true. It was never much of a language anyway. But the Cornish are still (rightly) proud of their long and ancient history, from the Celtic tin-streamers to the Victorian industrialists.

    It's all gone to pot when what ought to be a living, breathing language is reliant for its survival upon jargon-packed language strategy evaluation and development reports. Written in English. The more ambitious seem to want language immersion through primary and secondary school, but won't be the funds for that. Or enough nutters, I suspect, though I do have a genuine admiration for your family and others who have kicked back against the tide. At least there's been enough cash for some street signs to give them a sense of having achieved something. I don't ever expect to be able to point at a single humble street sign and say "that was me, that was!"
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    We are heading for a hard Brexit. The EU are going to demand concessions for a deal that aren't squarable with the Leave vote. The extremists like Varakhar and Barnier have won.
    Or, we are headed to a 2nd vote. The logic of this is becoming unstoppable.

    Blair is right.
    There will be no second vote. It would destroy the Conservative Party.
    Actually, it might be, Harold Wilson style, the lifeboat they need.
    Agreed, I can easily see a 2nd vote happening, as the only way out of the maze.

    I am, with horror, coming to the conclusion that Leave was the right decision, philosophically, but after Labour signed us up to Article 50 and Lisbon (denying us the promised referendum, as did Cameron) then Leave became almost impractically painful, economically.

    Lisbon. The EU Constitution. That's when the prison door slammed shut. Now we are trying to escape by head-butting the lock until it busts open.
    What does a second vote achieve?
    It puts the choice back to the people
    And the losers will insist it was the wrong choice. Rinse and repeat.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Sean_F said:


    A50 is designed to prevent leaving in an orderly manner.

    I don't think so. But it was designed under the assumption that the seceding party would be prepared, rational, united and led by a stable government.

    In hindsight these assumptions all seem a bit... implausible.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:


    Oi. Cornwall looks to Cornwall, never Devon. NEVER!!!

    Quite seriously, Cornwall sees itself as almost a nation. Its capital is not across the Tamar.

    The Cornishernised" Anglo-Saxon dictionary and having prolonged arguments over its pronunciation and which period of Anglo-Saxon speech is most "authentic", setting up an Anglo-Saxon creche to get the young'uns speaking it, pressuring one of the local councils to put their cultural spending to the furtherance of their minority rights/oddball hobby... can we expect to see signs pointing to the local Biblioþéce for example? Given what has been achieved in Cornwall the speculation doesn't seem so utterly outlandish.
    No one really demands the signs, apart from a few extreme nutters (many of them in my own family: one of my cousins is the founder of Cornish Solidarity, and they are the IRA of Cornwall, if it ever got violent).

    The language is dead. Sad but true. It was never much of a language anyway. But the Cornish are still (rightly) proud of their long and ancient history, from the Celtic tin-streamers to the Victorian industrialists.

    e.g. my family (mum, dad, sister, cousins, nephews, nieces, scattered across west Cornwall) almost certainly live in exactly the same area their ancestors settled in about 3000-2000BC. Few people can say that.

    Perhaps only the Basques can boast a provably longer lineage: as the same people living in the same, small, definable place, over so much time
    The Fears can be traced back to the cavemen of Cheddar Gorge.
    Indeed. As I understand it, the scientific consensus right now is that most white Britons probably descend from the first wave of migrants after the Ice Age (intriguingly, they came from the Basque Country, I think)

    The difference with Cornwall is the unique language, surnames, placenames, etc, and all of it in such a small distinct region, so you can say (without DNA analysis) that they have continuously inhabited their tiny chunk of Britain for 3000 or even 5000 years.

    Kernow Bys Vyken!
    I doubt it. The Basque language is completely unrelated to any other language, and their DNA also has unique markers. Whereas Cornish, as I understand it, is a Celtic language, and the Celtic invasion of the British Isles seems to have happened from about 1000 BC onwards.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0usmMfs5IY
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