I agree with @rkrkrk on this whole ‘people’s vote’ idea - I wouldn’t be remotely surprised to see Leave win again. That would kill off Remain for a generation. If you want us back in the EU after Brexit, that’s not exactly ideal.
Thanks. If we see polling showing 75% remain then its obviously daft not to reconsider and I'd be happy for another referendum. Until then I think there's no case for it; tactically or in terms of respecting the previous vote.
The chances of Brexit not happening are rising, the more dysfunctional the government becomes. The chances of no-deal Brexit are also rising for the same reason. Yes is still a value bet but it now takes nerve where previously it looked obvious.
May is on the brink of pulling off the most spectacular feat of political leadership for many decades. She has marginalised the Hard Brexiteers and will now pulverise support for No Deal. The Chequers plan will stand as a straw-man version of the best possible Brexit that works in theory but will never need to be put into practice because she will offer people the chance to Remain and they will take it with both hands.
Yes - whether by accident or design. There are just too many aligned interests for it not to happen. Momentum wants another vote. The Tories want an escape hatch that doesn't hand power to Corbyn. The pressure will mount over the coming months. A key underreported point to notice over the last week is that for the first time, the government felt the need to *rule out* a second referendum, unconvincingly. This means the idea is gaining traction - and if it happens, it will be final.
May has to be willing to jettison 75% of Conservative voters and members to frustrate Brexit.
That's quite a gamble.
That’s absurd given that only two years ago the Conservative strategy was to force its members and voters into making their peace with EU membership by demonstrating that it was the will of the people. May is just doing it properly.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
It can't be stressed enough that the way the Brexit omnishambles is progressing must be pretty close to being Corbyn's dream outcome.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
Have any of the People's vote advocates got a plan for what happens if Leave wins a second time?
We leave. With or without a deal, dependent on the detail of the vote.
Risking no deal/hard Brexit for a (40%, 30%???) shot at reversing the result is a bad idea.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
At the moment no one voted for no deal. So if we get that, and its as bad as they say, then easily reversed. If we have just endorsed no deal in a referendum, then that's trickier.
I don't know if you're right about who will be hurt either. There will be plenty of pain to spread around, but I would imagine the retired to be less affected than the young.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Applause. You may be the last of the Conservatives.
Justin is spot on. May wanted a Brexit election, but Jezza fought on other turf, on generational inequality and austerity. Last year's election was for a population bored of Brexit, which is a large part of why the Lib Dems flopped, along with Tories and UKIP.
I suspect that this was accident rather than design, but Jezza is simply not that bothered about Brexit as an issue.
The rank stupidity of the Tory position on the 2017 election was not seeing that there wouldn't be a fag paper between Labour and Tory positions. So what to talk about for weeks and weeks? Anything but, obviously...
86.6% of votes were cast for parties pledging to implement Brexit - and that included leaving the Customs Union.
Looks like being pro-Brexit is especially bad for the newspaper business.
Or it could be having become an unreadable rag doesn’t help either...the Guardian’s -13% is not great either (despite being the only reasonably balanced paper left...).
I agree with @rkrkrk on this whole ‘people’s vote’ idea - I wouldn’t be remotely surprised to see Leave win again. That would kill off Remain for a generation. If you want us back in the EU after Brexit, that’s not exactly ideal.
One possibility is leave win, the other possibility is that people who voted leave last time don´t vote, and remain narrowly win. Neither outcome is particularly good for the long term goal of remaining in the EU, and making a constructive contribution to it.
It rather depends on how you perceive the risks of leaving the EU. If you think leaving is genuinely catastrophic, as many of the `peoples vote´advocates do, then it is worth the political risks, because they are necessary to avoid the break up of the Western liberal order, of which the EU represents. It is about turning back the march towards the dark age represented by Trump and the far right.
The flaw in this way of thinking is that the UK has been, in reality, an obstacle to the EU actually functioning. It has no interest at all in political integration and worked to stop it from happening. None of this would change, following a narrow remain win. The same poisonous forces would exist as do at present.
To my mind, the UK remaining in the EU would be more harmful to the chances of the EU surviving than if it leaves on the terms of Camerons vote in 2016. IE : trigger article 50 and get out. I increasingly think that this is what should have happened, and all this dithering is bad for everyone.
The chances of Brexit not happening are rising, the more dysfunctional the government becomes. The chances of no-deal Brexit are also rising for the same reason. Yes is still a value bet but it now takes nerve where previously it looked obvious.
May is on the brink of pulling off the most spectacular feat of political leadership for many decades. She has marginalised the Hard Brexiteers and will now pulverise support for No Deal. The Chequers plan will stand as a straw-man version of the best possible Brexit that works in theory but will never need to be put into practice because she will offer people the chance to Remain and they will take it with both hands.
Yes - whether by accident or design. There are just too many aligned interests for it not to happen. Momentum wants another vote. The Tories want an escape hatch that doesn't hand power to Corbyn. The pressure will mount over the coming months. A key underreported point to notice over the last week is that for the first time, the government felt the need to *rule out* a second referendum, unconvincingly. This means the idea is gaining traction - and if it happens, it will be final.
May has to be willing to jettison 75% of Conservative voters and members to frustrate Brexit.
That's quite a gamble.
That’s absurd given that only two years ago the Conservative strategy was to force its members and voters into making their peace with EU membership by demonstrating that it was the will of the people. May is just doing it properly.
If that was the plan two years ago, it didn't work out. Why would it be more likely to succeed when Conservative voters are more pro-Brexit than two years ago?
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away from politics.
How far north? The run between Cape Wrath and John O'Groats is spectacular.
Apartheid in Israel. Who would have guessed? You can understand why Jeremy might find it easier to walk through the eye of a needle than comment on Netanyahu's Likud government and stay on the right side of the IRHA's definition of antisemitism
I just watched that on channel 4 news. Apartheid in Israel . Hard to defend that policy , which has just been voted on.
Have any of the People's vote advocates got a plan for what happens if Leave wins a second time?
We leave. With or without a deal, dependent on the detail of the vote.
Risking no deal/hard Brexit for a (40%, 30%???) shot at reversing the result is a bad idea.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
At the moment no one voted for no deal. So if we get that, and its as bad as they say, then easily reversed. If we have just endorsed no deal in a referendum, then that's trickier.
I don't know if you're right about who will be hurt either. There will be plenty of pain to spread around, but I would imagine the retired to be less affected than the young.
There would also be winners as well as losers. I'm not sure how that would match the party political divide.
The chances of Brexit not happening are rising, the more dysfunctional the government becomes. The chances of no-deal Brexit are also rising for the same reason. Yes is still a value bet but it now takes nerve where previously it looked obvious.
May is on the brink of pulling off the most spectacular feat of political leadership for many decades. She has marginalised the Hard Brexiteers and will now pulverise support for No Deal. The Chequers plan will stand as a straw-man version of the best possible Brexit that works in theory but will never need to be put into practice because she will offer people the chance to Remain and they will take it with both hands.
Yes - whether by accident or design. There are just too many aligned interests for it not to happen. Momentum wants another vote. The Tories want an escape hatch that doesn't hand power to Corbyn. The pressure will mount over the coming months. A key underreported point to notice over the last week is that for the first time, the government felt the need to *rule out* a second referendum, unconvincingly. This means the idea is gaining traction - and if it happens, it will be final.
May has to be willing to jettison 75% of Conservative voters and members to frustrate Brexit.
That's quite a gamble.
That’s absurd given that only two years ago the Conservative strategy was to force its members and voters into making their peace with EU membership by demonstrating that it was the will of the people. May is just doing it properly.
If that was the plan two years ago, it didn't work out. Why would it be more likely to succeed when Conservative voters are more pro-Brexit than two years ago?
It's more likely to succeed because Brexit support is much more fragile and any future Brexit campaign will be a sober affair without the hope (however false) of 2016. People are overestimating the ability of anger based on "we told you once" to sustain itself throughout a campaign. The 50+ age group that forms the core of Brexit support will come to accept the inevitable and be swayed by a more optimistic Remain campaign than last time.
Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
I agree with @rkrkrk on this whole ‘people’s vote’ idea - I wouldn’t be remotely surprised to see Leave win again. That would kill off Remain for a generation. If you want us back in the EU after Brexit, that’s not exactly ideal.
One possibility is leave win, the other possibility is that people who voted leave last time don´t vote, and remain narrowly win. Neither outcome is particularly good for the long term goal of remaining in the EU, and making a constructive contribution to it.
It rather depends on how you perceive the risks of leaving the EU. If you think leaving is genuinely catastrophic, as many of the `peoples vote´advocates do, then it is worth the political risks, because they are necessary to avoid the break up of the Western liberal order, of which the EU represents. It is about turning back the march towards the dark age represented by Trump and the far right.
The flaw in this way of thinking is that the UK has been, in reality, an obstacle to the EU actually functioning. It has no interest at all in political integration and worked to stop it from happening. None of this would change, following a narrow remain win. The same poisonous forces would exist as do at present.
To my mind, the UK remaining in the EU would be more harmful to the chances of the EU surviving than if it leaves on the terms of Camerons vote in 2016. IE : trigger article 50 and get out. I increasingly think that this is what should have happened, and all this dithering is bad for everyone.
If the UK remains, it could produce an EU Parliament with a nationalist/populist majority.
Looks like being pro-Brexit is especially bad for the newspaper business.
The printed newspaper business has no future anyway. Newspapers might be a great way of finding out what has happened in the world 12-24 hours previously but that's not nearly quick enough for most people. I'm 44 and it just doesn't occur to me to consider printed paper as a worthwhile news source and hasn't done for well over a decade.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Have any of the People's vote advocates got a plan for what happens if Leave wins a second time?
We leave. With or without a deal, dependent on the detail of the vote.
Risking no deal/hard Brexit for a (40%, 30%???) shot at reversing the result is a bad idea.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
At the moment no one voted for no deal. So if we get that, and its as bad as they say, then easily reversed. If we have just endorsed no deal in a referendum, then that's trickier.
I don't know if you're right about who will be hurt either. There will be plenty of pain to spread around, but I would imagine the retired to be less affected than the young.
If you are referring to no deal meaning planes flying, etc but no trade deal and no customs deal then it is only the swivel eyed looney remainers saying it will be bad, really bad. Every economic forecast has been consistent about no deal. A period of adjustment, then decent economic growth with lots of job creation. The latest one today was the IMF, WTO rules mean economy 4% lower than trend in 2030. Oh scary number, but it means a drop in growth of .3% per year below trend. Or 5.1bill quid per year reduction in GDP growth.
Trend growth for the UK is 2.5% so we will grow at 2.2%. That means lots more taxes, lots more jobs, prosperity. The UK will never vote to rejoin with economic figures like that. Get some clever people in Government and enjoy the new freedoms they have they should be able to accelerate growth above trend with the dead weight of EU regs off the economies back.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away from politics.
How far north? The run between Cape Wrath and John O'Groats is spectacular.
Lossiemouth, hence our connection with the fishermen. My wife had time in Wick and Orkney during the war and we have family in Wick. My late Father in law, a highly successful skipper, used to tell stories of how the boats returning to Lossiemouth from fishing in the west would actually be on full speed ahead and were going astern as they battled with the Pentland Firth. My late Mother christened the hinterland from Cape Wrath down to Dingwall as moon Country
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Yes it will. A huge one. Telling 17m people that they voted the "wrong" way will destroy this country.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer.
A no-deal not endorsed by a referendum could finish your party for even longer.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
I fully endorse your last paragraph but the Brexiteers have no care for business. My hope is that TM stays and find a compromise that the house can accept and leaves ERG impotent
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Yes it will. A huge one. Telling 17m people that they voted the "wrong" way will destroy this country.
I agree - voters can't have 'nothing' to answer the 'What's the point of voting question".
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
It can't be stressed enough that the way the Brexit omnishambles is progressing must be pretty close to being Corbyn's dream outcome.
And it's all down to the self-indulgent career-driven political pygmies at the top of today's Tory Party - Cameron, Johnson and May in particular. History will bracket them with the appeasers of the 1930s, people who ignored hard realities to gain cheap approbation from the party and in doing so came close to destroying the peaceful, tolerant country that is the UK.
When I saw the footage of Mr Junker the other day I thought he must be at least 70. I was surprised to find out he's only 63. (No offence intended, just an observation).
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Yes it will. A huge one. Telling 17m people that they voted the "wrong" way will destroy this country.
A second referendum after having negotiated a withdrawal agreement wouldn’t say any such thing. It would say, “We are a safe pair of hands that has delivered a plan for a smooth and orderly Brexit, but now you know exactly what it means, it is right that the people should have the final say.”
It would cement the Tories as a party of government rather than an ideological sect.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Yes it will. A huge one. Telling 17m people that they voted the "wrong" way will destroy this country.
It depends how it comes about. It cannot come from TM but no doubt ways could be found by others
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
It will seriously damaged the electoral prospects of the Tory Party. As soon as May decided her Government was going to do Brexit, the Tory party owns it. Renegade they get the blame, Corbyns stands there and says "We would have delivered the Andrex infused with buttermilk Brexit, bestest Brexit ever, vote for me."
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Yes it will. A huge one. Telling 17m people that they voted the "wrong" way will destroy this country.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
It depends how it comes about. It cannot come from TM but no doubt ways could be found by others
There's no one in the party who could hold a majority on parliament to push a second vote. I think the party would completely destroy any leader who even hinted at one, mainly because of the reasons I've set out. We'd be finished for a generation. There isn't any way that we could survive putting remain back on the agenda and not be destroyed. We'd be the "elites" in a people vs the elites referendum and we'd pay for it in the following election, regardless of the referendum result.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You only view it as a nightmare because you lost. That's democracy not a nightmare.
Disregarding the rights and wrongs of a second referendum, calling it a 'Peopl's Vote' is daft. How is this one any more of a "people's" vote than last time?
It depends how it comes about. It cannot come from TM but no doubt ways could be found by others
There's no one in the party who could hold a majority on parliament to push a second vote. I think the party would completely destroy any leader who even hinted at one, mainly because of the reasons I've set out. We'd be finished for a generation. There isn't any way that we could survive putting remain back on the agenda and not be destroyed. We'd be the "elites" in a people vs the elites referendum and we'd pay for it in the following election, regardless of the referendum result.
Brexit falling apart and then the Tory party falling apart....would be almost as good as a World Cup win.
Disregarding the rights and wrongs of a second referendum, calling it a 'Peopl's Vote' is daft. How is this one any more of a "people's" vote than last time?
Their focus groups thought a “People’s vote” was more sellable than “the beatings will continue until you vote the way we want you to”
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
It depends how it comes about. It cannot come from TM but no doubt ways could be found by others
There's no one in the party who could hold a majority on parliament to push a second vote. I think the party would completely destroy any leader who even hinted at one, mainly because of the reasons I've set out. We'd be finished for a generation. There isn't any way that we could survive putting remain back on the agenda and not be destroyed. We'd be the "elites" in a people vs the elites referendum and we'd pay for it in the following election, regardless of the referendum result.
It’s why the faith of those convinced a second referendum is now “inevitable” and is all part of “May’s cunning plan” is so touching....
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
Not only that, but one thing the reaction to Chequers should prove beyond doubt is that implementing "Brexit" doesn't avoid a betrayal narrative. In fact imposing any kind of sane deal without giving people another say is more likely to fuel it.
If you are referring to no deal meaning planes flying, etc but no trade deal and no customs deal then it is only the swivel eyed looney remainers saying it will be bad, really bad. Every economic forecast has been consistent about no deal. A period of adjustment, then decent economic growth with lots of job creation. The latest one today was the IMF, WTO rules mean economy 4% lower than trend in 2030. Oh scary number, but it means a drop in growth of .3% per year below trend. Or 5.1bill quid per year reduction in GDP growth.
Trend growth for the UK is 2.5% so we will grow at 2.2%. That means lots more taxes, lots more jobs, prosperity. The UK will never vote to rejoin with economic figures like that. Get some clever people in Government and enjoy the new freedoms they have they should be able to accelerate growth above trend with the dead weight of EU regs off the economies back.
A 4% lower trend in 2030 can hide a lot of variation in the meantime. As you say, the shorter term hit could be much more significant. Following that short term hit is when I would expect the political impact to be most significant.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Cut the Donald Trump crap. We're all better than that.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
Indeed. At the next General Election the Lib Dems can campaign on the basis of having a second referendum, win a majority and put it to a vote.
"Right, you bunch of xenophobic racist little Englanders-yes, that includes you Welsh bastards too- we reckon you're 17 million useless twats, and we're doing our utmost to make exiting the EU with any semblance of sanity impossible so we can have a "People's Vote" and stay in. You're a bunch of morons, so don't count as "people", so fuck you" Have I missed owt out?
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
Absolutely. After the last decision has been implemented. That hasn't happened yet.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
And if it doesn't? Do we have a third run? A fourth?
Another referendum would be run as a people vs the elites campaign. If you thought the last leave campaign was corrosive then wait until effigies of remainers are burning all over the country and hanging from lamposts.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
There were multiple bad decisions by Major, then Blair, then Cameron that got us in to this mess.
Their mistakes are dwarfed by the catastrophic populist claptrap peddled by an ideological right drunk on nostalgia.
Cameron´s mistake was to think these forces could be faced down.
Cameron's mistake was not to try to face these forces down. Instead he pandered to them, withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, giving credence to the possibility of leaving by refusing to rule it out, criticising the EU at every turn and allowing a climate of scepticism to become endemic in the Tory Party. Instead of confronting the ultras with the realities of the situation he pretended to be undecided between remain and leave before obtaining his "deal" and hobbled his own referendum campaign by refusing to allow direct criticism of leading leavers in the interest of (don't laugh) party unity. He more than anyone else is responsible for the disastrous mess in which his country and his party now find themselves.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
Indeed. At the next General Election the Lib Dems can campaign on the basis of having a second referendum, win a majority and put it to a vote.
Or, if it becomes apparent that the public have had second thoughts about the chaotic Brexit that is emerging, the government can avert multi-generational ignominy and offer one itself.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Yep. That’s the bad idea that’s an even worse idea than Brexit.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
Indeed. At the next General Election the Lib Dems can campaign on the basis of having a second referendum, win a majority and put it to a vote.
I am hoping that will be the Labour policy. Unlikely with Corbyn in charge but the sands are shifting in the Labour party. Let's see...
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
And if it doesn't? Do we have a third run? A fourth?
Another referendum would be run as a people vs the elites campaign. If you thought the last leave campaign was corrosive then wait until effigies of remainers are burning all over the country and hanging from lamposts.
"Right, you bunch of xenophobic racist little Englanders-yes, that includes you Welsh bastards too- we reckon you're 17 million useless twats, and we're doing our utmost to make exiting the EU with any semblance of sanity impossible so we can have a "People's Vote" and stay in. You're a bunch of morons, so don't count as "people", so fuck you" Have I missed owt out?
I think we know you're not in in! But I do make you right right
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
And if it doesn't? Do we have a third run? A fourth?
Another referendum would be run as a people vs the elites campaign. If you thought the last leave campaign was corrosive then wait until effigies of remainers are burning all over the country and hanging from lamposts.
Ludicrous hyperbole. The strength of the resistance to Brexit has been sustained by a spontaneous grassroots campaign. It's not Blair or Adonis who have been making the difference so far but the #FBPE crowd and the volunteers running street regularly across the country.
It depends how it comes about. It cannot come from TM but no doubt ways could be found by others
There's no one in the party who could hold a majority on parliament to push a second vote. I think the party would completely destroy any leader who even hinted at one, mainly because of the reasons I've set out. We'd be finished for a generation. There isn't any way that we could survive putting remain back on the agenda and not be destroyed. We'd be the "elites" in a people vs the elites referendum and we'd pay for it in the following election, regardless of the referendum result.
This will all look very different even to Conservative eyes by the turn of the year, and the threat of the Conservative party being associated with outright economic chaos for many decades to come. Approaching the last edge of a cliff concentrates minds.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
There were multiple bad decisions by Major, then Blair, then Cameron that got us in to this mess.
Their mistakes are dwarfed by the catastrophic populist claptrap peddled by an ideological right drunk on nostalgia.
Cameron´s mistake was to think these forces could be faced down.
Cameron's mistake was not to try to face these forces down. Instead he pandered to them, withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, giving credence to the possibility of leaving by refusing to rule it out, criticising the EU at every turn and allowing a climate of scepticism to become endemic in the Tory Party. Instead of confronting the ultras with the realities of the situation he pretended to be undecided between remain and leave before obtaining his "deal" and hobbled his own referendum campaign by refusing to allow direct criticism of leading leavers in the interest of (don't laugh) party unity. He more than anyone else is responsible for the disastrous mess in which his country and his party now find themselves.
Why shouldn't he have withdrawn from the EPP? They are a pro-federalist grouping.
Have any of the People's vote advocates got a plan for what happens if Leave wins a second time?
We leave. With or without a deal, dependent on the detail of the vote.
Risking no deal/hard Brexit for a (40%, 30%???) shot at reversing the result is a bad idea.
It's about ensuring legitimacy for whatever follows. I'd prefer Remain, or the Chequers Deal over No Deal but if the country voted for No Deal, so be it.
At the moment we risk having one of the above and a majority will (rightly) say that's not what they voted for.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
And if it doesn't? Do we have a third run? A fourth?
Another referendum would be run as a people vs the elites campaign. If you thought the last leave campaign was corrosive then wait until effigies of remainers are burning all over the country and hanging from lamposts.
Ludicrous hyperbole. The strength of the resistance to Brexit has been sustained by a spontaneous grassroots campaign. It's not Blair or Adonis who have been making the difference so far but the #FBPE crowd and the volunteers running street regularly across the country.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Democracy did not stop on 23 June 2016. The public can collectively change its mind.
And if it doesn't? Do we have a third run? A fourth?
Another referendum would be run as a people vs the elites campaign. If you thought the last leave campaign was corrosive then wait until effigies of remainers are burning all over the country and hanging from lamposts.
Ludicrous hyperbole. The strength of the resistance to Brexit has been sustained by a spontaneous grassroots campaign. It's not Blair or Adonis who have been making the difference so far but the #FBPE crowd and the volunteers running street regularly across the country.
A bunch of noisy nobodies on a Twitter echo chamber? Is that it?
"Right, you bunch of xenophobic racist little Englanders-yes, that includes you Welsh bastards too- we reckon you're 17 million useless twats, and we're doing our utmost to make exiting the EU with any semblance of sanity impossible so we can have a "People's Vote" and stay in. You're a bunch of morons, so don't count as "people", so fuck you" Have I missed owt out?
The reason Brexit is in such an unholy mess and this argument is not going away is that it pretty much impossible to achieve without incurring economic damage.
In itself, Brexit is easy. It's the Brexit with an economy that's hard.
Reality, when it bites. Bites hard.
It has nothing to do with elites or campaigns on Twitter. It's much more fundamental.
"Right, you bunch of xenophobic racist little Englanders-yes, that includes you Welsh bastards too- we reckon you're 17 million useless twats, and we're doing our utmost to make exiting the EU with any semblance of sanity impossible so we can have a "People's Vote" and stay in. You're a bunch of morons, so don't count as "people", so fuck you" Have I missed owt out?
For Brexit? It's hard to say. Most of the people who voted for it the first time are bored and demoralised and don't think there's much chance of getting what they hoped for.
The reason Brexit is in such an unholy mess and this argument is not going away is that it pretty much impossible to achieve without incurring economic damage.
In itself, Brexit is easy. It's the Brexit with an economy that's hard.
Reality, when it bites. Bites hard.
It has nothing to do with elites or campaigns on Twitter. It's much more fundamental.
Yes. And this is an existential problem for the Tories as a party of supposed economic pragmatism, that may destroy them.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
Yep. That’s the bad idea that’s an even worse idea than Brexit.
That’s right for now. It might not always be right. It might be wrong very quickly.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
It can't be stressed enough that the way the Brexit omnishambles is progressing must be pretty close to being Corbyn's dream outcome.
And it's all down to the self-indulgent career-driven political pygmies at the top of today's Tory Party - Cameron, Johnson and May in particular. History will bracket them with the appeasers of the 1930s, people who ignored hard realities to gain cheap approbation from the party and in doing so came close to destroying the peaceful, tolerant country that is the UK.
Brexit is not something that was inflicted upon an unwilling population by a remote elite. Look at the Nat Cen numbers. Eurosceptic views went from 40% in 1992 to 69% by 2017. That isn't just old people, nostalgic for the Empire. It was a very big change in public opinion. The Conservatives turned eurosceptic for the same reason they dropped Section 28 and introduced gay marriage; the public's views changed.
The reason Brexit is in such an unholy mess and this argument is not going away is that it pretty much impossible to achieve without incurring economic damage.
In itself, Brexit is easy. It's the Brexit with an economy that's hard.
Reality, when it bites. Bites hard.
It has nothing to do with elites or campaigns on Twitter. It's much more fundamental.
Yes. And this is an existential problem for the Tories as a party of supposed economic pragmatism, that may destroy them.
Think Black Wednesday's (also coming out of a European mechanism and with only short term disruption) impact on Tory economic credibility and multiply by ten
It depends how it comes about. It cannot come from TM but no doubt ways could be found by others
There's no one in the party who could hold a majority on parliament to push a second vote. I think the party would completely destroy any leader who even hinted at one, mainly because of the reasons I've set out. We'd be finished for a generation. There isn't any way that we could survive putting remain back on the agenda and not be destroyed. We'd be the "elites" in a people vs the elites referendum and we'd pay for it in the following election, regardless of the referendum result.
This will all look very different even to Conservative eyes by the turn of the year, and the threat of the Conservative party being associated with outright economic chaos for many decades to come. Approaching the last edge of a cliff concentrates minds.
We're obviously going to blame the EU. However, a planned exit wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as is being predicted at the moment. That's where I think we will fail at blaming the EU, our party hasn't done it's homework.
I did not vote in the Referendum. I wanted to - but I simply didn't have sufficient information on which to make a reasonable decision, My vote would have been a guess as to what might be best for a majority of the country. That was the first time I haven't voted in the 50+ years I have been eligible to do so.
Now I have been made aware of the implications of leave/remain - I have more knowledge on which to base a preferred outcome. I would like the chance to vote on the eventual 'deal' - whatever that may entail - or to opt for a 'no deal', knowing now what that is likely to mean.
I'm not looking for support for my views, nor trying to affect what others feel is right for them. But I do just wonder how many other folk might hope for the opportunity of voting in a more understandable referendum than we were presented with last time.
The reason Brexit is in such an unholy mess and this argument is not going away is that it pretty much impossible to achieve without incurring economic damage.
In itself, Brexit is easy. It's the Brexit with an economy that's hard.
Reality, when it bites. Bites hard.
It has nothing to do with elites or campaigns on Twitter. It's much more fundamental.
Yes. And this is an existential problem for the Tories as a party of supposed economic pragmatism, that may destroy them.
Think Black Wednesday's (also coming out of a European mechanism and with only short term disruption) impact on Tory economic credibility and multiply by ten
Although Black Wednesday actually kick-started the economy, which was growing quite nicely by 1997. The problem was not the practical effects as such but (1) the fact that it happened made the government look as if it had no control - rightly, in that case; (2) all the scaremongering about what would happen if Britain left proved groundless, also making the government look like it didn't know what it was doing; and (3) because of the other two points, the government didn't get any credit for the falling unemployment and return of growth.
Brexit presents all sorts of challenges but unlike the ERM ejection, it is a policy the government owns, for better or worse.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
It can't be stressed enough that the way the Brexit omnishambles is progressing must be pretty close to being Corbyn's dream outcome.
And it's all down to the self-indulgent career-driven political pygmies at the top of today's Tory Party - Cameron, Johnson and May in particular. History will bracket them with the appeasers of the 1930s, people who ignored hard realities to gain cheap approbation from the party and in doing so came close to destroying the peaceful, tolerant country that is the UK.
Brexit is not something that was inflicted upon an unwilling population by a remote elite. Look at the Nat Cen numbers. Eurosceptic views went from 40% in 1992 to 69% by 2017. That isn't just old people, nostalgic for the Empire. It was a very big change in public opinion. The Conservatives turned eurosceptic for the same reason they dropped Section 28 and introduced gay marriage; the public's views changed.
Three things happened and coincided - a hugely influential and 25 year-long campaign against Europe in the press came to maturity at exactly the moment of the 2015 refugee crisis and Eurozone crisis.
The reason Brexit is in such an unholy mess and this argument is not going away is that it pretty much impossible to achieve without incurring economic damage.
In itself, Brexit is easy. It's the Brexit with an economy that's hard.
Reality, when it bites. Bites hard.
It has nothing to do with elites or campaigns on Twitter. It's much more fundamental.
Yes. And this is an existential problem for the Tories as a party of supposed economic pragmatism, that may destroy them.
Think Black Wednesday's (also coming out of a European mechanism and with only short term disruption) impact on Tory economic credibility and multiply by ten
Black Wednesday was a good thing.
What destroyed Tory credibility was trying and failing to prevent it. So if a hard Brexit is coming and will be like Black Wednesday then the lesson surely is to embrace it. Welcome it. Own it.
I am going to the north of Scotland tomorrow to family for ten days and I could come home to a Country without a government
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union We have done so before and will again
Enjoy your time away, Big G. On a second referendum, I think you need to have a think about the corrosive effect it would have on our democracy to tell millions of people who rarely vote that we (the party) aren't going to listen to them because it's either too difficult or goes against the wishes of the establishment.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
Second referendum will have no more corrosive effect on our democracy than the first.
Yes it will. A huge one. Telling 17m people that they voted the "wrong" way will destroy this country.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
In Scotland we are still getting over the 2014 iRef, and any idiot who suggests a re run is in danger of being run up the nearest lamppost, which is why Sturgeon is staying schtum and leaving it to the minions to shout and rant, and be strung up. As to euRef2, if it runs, the pressure will be on Sturgeon to request iRef2, the NI to have a unification ref, and there are enough regional differences in England as well as in Wales to make a complete and utter mess of everything. Request one at your peril...
A vote on the Deal is rational, sensible, pragmatic, and democratic.
And it will be deal or no deal.
How sweet. The village idiot thinks that a referendum would leave Parliament without a Remain option.
The national traitor thinks a Tory PM trying to put remain on the ballot paper would survive the night. Oh wait, you must think Chuka and Anna will lead a government of national unity.
Hang on. The last referendum has been THE defining corrosive political event of my lifetime. A second is dealing with the nightmare that already exists.
You mean people having their say for the first time in decades has been corrosive to the liberal elites because they don't want to implement the result they were given by the people.
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
First post but had to give my two cents.
This is totally correct. But the argument that Chequers is not brexit is a powerful one which means a hard brexit with no deal is far more likely than anybody expects.** This brexit WILL cause economic (and possibly social) turmoil for at least 1-2 years. This will result in the disintegration of the ‘Conservative’ party as a force for a generation and labour will come to power for the foreseeable future. Now with Corbyn as leader (and impossible to replace) and a left wing manifesto, it’s likely that MPs would break away in huge numbers to form a centrist alternative. This would herald the beginning of continental coalition politics, and frankly we should have caught up to our European friends with this years ago. The conservatives will likely do the same, but the hard brexit faction would merge with UKIP and become a far right footnote in the history books.
This route is probably the only way the country becomes governable again. The two party system is clearly on death row.
** whatever you hear in the headlines, business is not prepared for this. I work in finance and apart from the odd water cooler joke about moving to Geneva (either hard brexit or Corbyn), nobody is contingency planning in a serious capacity.
No deal might be the fastest resolution of the disaster. Leavers would have no hiding place and xenophobic isolation would be brought into disrepute. It would cause a lot of pain and misery, but fortunately that would be disproportionately felt by the groups that voted for Brexit.
That said, it would probably also lead to a hard left government in the short term, so “fastest” has to be understood to be a matter of decades rather than months.
It can't be stressed enough that the way the Brexit omnishambles is progressing must be pretty close to being Corbyn's dream outcome.
And it's all down to the self-indulgent career-driven political pygmies at the top of today's Tory Party - Cameron, Johnson and May in particular. History will bracket them with the appeasers of the 1930s, people who ignored hard realities to gain cheap approbation from the party and in doing so came close to destroying the peaceful, tolerant country that is the UK.
Brexit is not something that was inflicted upon an unwilling population by a remote elite. Look at the Nat Cen numbers. Eurosceptic views went from 40% in 1992 to 69% by 2017. That isn't just old people, nostalgic for the Empire. It was a very big change in public opinion. The Conservatives turned eurosceptic for the same reason they dropped Section 28 and introduced gay marriage; the public's views changed.
Three things happened and coincided - a hugely influential and 25 year-long campaign against Europe in the press came to maturity at exactly the moment of the 2015 refugee crisis and Eurozone crisis.
Maybe if the Conservatives had spent 25 years arguing that the EU was great, things might have been different, but I think in reality they'd have been reduced to a fringe party, left behind by shifts inpublic opinion, like the pre war Liberals.
A vote on the Deal is rational, sensible, pragmatic, and democratic.
And it will be deal or no deal.
How sweet. The village idiot thinks that a referendum would leave Parliament without a Remain option.
The national traitor thinks a Tory PM trying to put remain on the ballot paper would survive the night. Oh wait, you must think Chuka and Anna will lead a government of national unity.
The government doesn’t have a majority in either house. And you think Remain would not be put on the ballot paper?
Fresh from your idea earlier that introducing new impediments to immigrants will encourage them to come, you’re on a roll today.
A vote on the Deal is rational, sensible, pragmatic, and democratic.
And it will be deal or no deal.
How sweet. The village idiot thinks that a referendum would leave Parliament without a Remain option.
The national traitor thinks a Tory PM trying to put remain on the ballot paper would survive the night. Oh wait, you must think Chuka and Anna will lead a government of national unity.
I did not vote in the Referendum. I wanted to - but I simply didn't have sufficient information on which to make a reasonable decision, My vote would have been a guess as to what might be best for a majority of the country. That was the first time I haven't voted in the 50+ years I have been eligible to do so.
Now I have been made aware of the implications of leave/remain - I have more knowledge on which to base a preferred outcome. I would like the chance to vote on the eventual 'deal' - whatever that may entail - or to opt for a 'no deal', knowing now what that is likely to mean.
I'm not looking for support for my views, nor trying to affect what others feel is right for them. But I do just wonder how many other folk might hope for the opportunity of voting in a more understandable referendum than we were presented with last time.
IIRC, some people voted Remain because, although they wanted to Leave eventually, they felt it would be better to stay for a while & vote Leave in the next Referendum.
Comments
My party should hang its head in shame as it destructs with ideologs at each end
But labour are no better, no idea on Brexit, a leader who would be a disaster for NATO and our defences, before I start on his economics, and shameful anti - semitic behaviour.
What have we done to deserve this disaster and loss of respect abroad.
I absolutely have no time for ERG extreme Brexit, indeed I am coming round to a second referendum where we vote conclusively to stay in and preserve the Union
And before HYUFD tells me I am not a proper conservative I have values that my party always stood for, not only low taxes but avid pro business and influence in the World. Look at the pound collapse over the last few days just as voters are going abroad on holiday. They are going to be very angry at how much more their holidays are costing
He will tell me to clear off to the Lib Dems but I will not be threatened by the right who have got us into this mess and will stay and fight against their dangerous course for our Country.
He will tell me Corbyn will get in as UKIP leave us. Well my answer to that is good riddance and I also reject his constant mantra that the conservatives can only win with UKIP
We have done so before and will again
Looks like being pro-Brexit is especially bad for the newspaper business.
I don't know if you're right about who will be hurt either. There will be plenty of pain to spread around, but I would imagine the retired to be less affected than the young.
86.6% of votes were cast for parties pledging to implement Brexit - and that included leaving the Customs Union.
It rather depends on how you perceive the risks of leaving the EU. If you think leaving is genuinely catastrophic, as many of the `peoples vote´advocates do, then it is worth the political risks, because they are necessary to avoid the break up of the Western liberal order, of which the EU represents. It is about turning back the march towards the dark age represented by Trump and the far right.
The flaw in this way of thinking is that the UK has been, in reality, an obstacle to the EU actually functioning. It has no interest at all in political integration and worked to stop it from happening. None of this would change, following a narrow remain win. The same poisonous forces would exist as do at present.
To my mind, the UK remaining in the EU would be more harmful to the chances of the EU surviving than if it leaves on the terms of Camerons vote in 2016. IE : trigger article 50 and get out. I increasingly think that this is what should have happened, and all this dithering is bad for everyone.
How far north? The run between Cape Wrath and John O'Groats is spectacular.
Apartheid in Israel .
Hard to defend that policy , which has just been voted on.
Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.
A second referendum would finish us for a generation or longer. Why do you think it's enemies of our party who are pushing the idea the hardest (as well as a few well meaning types who haven't thought it through well). The likes of Blair and Mandy not only want to keep us in the EU at any cost, but they know that if a second referendum happens under our watch they get the ultimate victory over our party.
What we need is a sensible compromise and for the government to start no deal planning to make sure the business on side, set aside money for tax breaks and investment subsidies and ensure big businesses like Airbus and BAe systems don't see their supply chains disrupted.
There were multiple bad decisions by Major, then Blair, then Cameron that got us in to this mess.
Every economic forecast has been consistent about no deal. A period of adjustment, then decent economic growth with lots of job creation.
The latest one today was the IMF, WTO rules mean economy 4% lower than trend in 2030. Oh scary number, but it means a drop in growth of .3% per year below trend. Or 5.1bill quid per year reduction in GDP growth.
Trend growth for the UK is 2.5% so we will grow at 2.2%. That means lots more taxes, lots more jobs, prosperity.
The UK will never vote to rejoin with economic figures like that. Get some clever people in Government and enjoy the new freedoms they have they should be able to accelerate growth above trend with the dead weight of EU regs off the economies back.
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1019922043830259714?s=20
It would cement the Tories as a party of government rather than an ideological sect.
Good evening, everyone.
CDU - 18% (nc)
Green - 18% (+3)
SPD - 17% (-5)
DL - 17% (+1)
AFD - 14% (nc)
FDP - 7% (nc)
DP - 4% (+2)
Others - 5% (-2)
All roads lead to Blair (and henchman Campbell)
Telling 17m people that their vote doesn't matter would be the end of democracy. Westminster must find a way to implement the result or it will die.
As you say, the shorter term hit could be much more significant. Following that short term hit is when I would expect the political impact to be most significant.
Have I missed owt out?
Another referendum would be run as a people vs the elites campaign. If you thought the last leave campaign was corrosive then wait until effigies of remainers are burning all over the country and hanging from lamposts.
Do it! This I have to see.
At the moment we risk having one of the above and a majority will (rightly) say that's not what they voted for.
Where's the votes coming from?
In itself, Brexit is easy. It's the Brexit with an economy that's hard.
Reality, when it bites. Bites hard.
It has nothing to do with elites or campaigns on Twitter. It's much more fundamental.
And if that doesn't work, say another Mass.
There still isn't a deal.
Now I have been made aware of the implications of leave/remain - I have more knowledge on which to base a preferred outcome. I would like the chance to vote on the eventual 'deal' - whatever that may entail - or to opt for a 'no deal', knowing now what that is likely to mean.
I'm not looking for support for my views, nor trying to affect what others feel is right for them. But I do just wonder how many other folk might hope for the opportunity of voting in a more understandable referendum than we were presented with last time.
Brexit presents all sorts of challenges but unlike the ERM ejection, it is a policy the government owns, for better or worse.
What destroyed Tory credibility was trying and failing to prevent it. So if a hard Brexit is coming and will be like Black Wednesday then the lesson surely is to embrace it. Welcome it. Own it.
This is totally correct. But the argument that Chequers is not brexit is a powerful one which means a hard brexit with no deal is far more likely than anybody expects.** This brexit WILL cause economic (and possibly social) turmoil for at least 1-2 years. This will result in the disintegration of the ‘Conservative’ party as a force for a generation and labour will come to power for the foreseeable future. Now with Corbyn as leader (and impossible to replace) and a left wing manifesto, it’s likely that MPs would break away in huge numbers to form a centrist alternative. This would herald the beginning of continental coalition politics, and frankly we should have caught up to our European friends with this years ago. The conservatives will likely do the same, but the hard brexit faction would merge with UKIP and become a far right footnote in the history books.
This route is probably the only way the country becomes governable again. The two party system is clearly on death row.
** whatever you hear in the headlines, business is not prepared for this. I work in finance and apart from the odd water cooler joke about moving to Geneva (either hard brexit or Corbyn), nobody is contingency planning in a serious capacity.
Fresh from your idea earlier that introducing new impediments to immigrants will encourage them to come, you’re on a roll today.