Interesting to see how much Oceania (Australia and NZ essentially) are forecast to grow. While Europe is stagnating, Oceania's population is going to more than double. It would indicate Australia will ultimately have about the same population as England.
I think PNG is part of Oceana too, and has quite marked population growth. Australia gets a similar number of migrants each year as UK, but with approx 1/3 of the population, so 3 times our per capita rate. Canada is not far off too as I recall. The PB League of Empire Loyalists may want to consider that in their CANZUK fantasies. Those countries are becoming less British at a faster rate than we are.
The new series on BBC 3 "Romper Stomper" shows the changing face of Australia in an interesting light. The original film is on catchup too, and worth catching, albeit very violent and disturbing.
Interesting to see how much Oceania (Australia and NZ essentially) are forecast to grow. While Europe is stagnating, Oceania's population is going to more than double. It would indicate Australia will ultimately have about the same population as England.
You'd think Australia's population would comfortably exceed England's, but is it not constrained by the shortage of water?
Sort of. In areas like Victoria its much less of an issue than in other areas though even in Victoria we often had water shortages and hosepipe bans are standard in the summer. I do believe much can be addressed with technology.
It's oft-quoted that 90% of Australia is uninhabitable which is reasonably true (though of course some aborigines and others do live in that 10%) but 10% of Australia's area is still 3x the UK's area.
Makes me wonder though why Europe's population is stagnating and why Australia and America aren't. Migration is part of the story but not the whole story. If Europe were growing at the same rate as Oceania it'd comfortably be over 2 billion by the end but its declining instead.
The single most important thing to realise about immigration control is that it is very difficult, even for an island.
It is certainly possible to control immigration.
It just requires an unpleasant Government willing to do nasty things .... err, like in Hungary.
Or expelling Windrush migrants...
The level of discomfort inflicted would have to be extreme to deter people who are willing to walk across the Sahara.
By the end of this Century, Africa will nearly catch up with Asia in terms of poppulation. As recently as 2000 it was the same population as Europe.
Interesting to see how much Oceania (Australia and NZ essentially) are forecast to grow. While Europe is stagnating, Oceania's population is going to more than double. It would indicate Australia will ultimately have about the same population as England.
I'm not sure why we should see the size of our population as the measure of our national success.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
I think the most telling point you make is identifying the two extremes, from those simply irrationally hostile to the foreign, to those who by implication or even directly act as though any restriction at all is unreasonable.
The infamous poster was obviously an appeal to the former, but there's been attempts by the latter to pretend repudiation of that means support of their own extreme position, when as you note legitimate concerns are held by most across a wide range of countries.
Mr. Royale, in a recent debate (also featuring Peterson, some berk called Dyson, and a woman whose name I forget), Stephen Fry criticised political correctness on the grounds some on the left preferred to be right than effective.
Mr. Sandpit, unsure if you saw it before, but I've checked and the commenting seems to work on my blog. It may be a problem from your side, or a temporary problem that's since mended itself.
F1: hmm. Vettel's 3 for the title with Ladbrokes (3.35 with Betfair).
Looks a little long. On the other hand, means tying up money for a while at odds that aren't enormous.
I’m dripping pennies onto both Hamilton and Vettel at odds against after each race. I can’t see past either of them for the title, their team mates are both nowhere and I don’t see Ricciardo having the car at the fast European tracks to take the fight to the others.
Edit: I wonder if Toto Wolff is looking at getting Ricciardo’s signature for next season?
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Mention it all you want,I would say though that Robinson is more islamphobia than Racist in my opinion.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
It's perfectly possible to be correct on one issue and be a racist.
As Robinson was then. That does not make him right now, or mean his recent actions are somehow correct.
This is another sad side to the sick mishandling of events in Rotherham et al: it has led to a nasty racist gaining, for however brief a period, the moral high ground. And it's an indication that something's utterly borken when someone like Robinson has the moral high ground over the authorities.
I don’t think Britain should unilaterally withdraw from refugee Conventions. But do they work in today’s age? Under the Dublin Convention asylum seekers are meant to seek asylum in the first safe country they arrive at. But that does not happen and puts enormous pressure on certain countries - Italy, for instance - and not others. So what’s the answer? Those Conventions do place the asylum seeker’s rights above the rights of the country they land in. Is that tenable when there are so very many asylum seekers?
Similarly if we don’t have some sort of points system for other sorts of migrants what should we have? A free for all? And if not that, what?
Frightening people about Turks is wrong. But people do have justifiable concerns about large scale immigration of
I agree that the tone is wrong and that what we are currently doing is likely to be the wrong way around, putting people we want off and doing nothing to address the concerns of those worried about societal change.
I wish I knew what the answers were. But those who deplore the current mess need to be wary, IMO, of giving the impression that nothing should be done at all to control immigration. That is not a tenable position.
Anyway thanks for the comments.
To answer your points in turn:
The Refugee Convention was drawn up in the wake of the Second World War. The signatories will have been keenly aware of the potential number of asylum seekers. Britain doesn’t take many. I agree that some other countries have more ground for complaint. This is not a priority for Britain though.
Britain’s current system works tolerably well in the round, attracting high quality immigrants on average. It is much the weakest where the state gets involved in judging the quality. Expanding that role for the state looks daft. Part of the problem is the implied suggestion accepted by many unquestioningly that Britain doesn’t currently control immigration. It does.
It may not be a priority for Britain. But I do think it a priority for Europe and I think Britain should be part of that debate/conversation.
I suppose the question is: does Britain control immigration effectively? And does it talk about the issue in a way which is sensible? Even if you think the answer to the first is yes - and many may disagree - the answer to the second is no. And that, IMO, leads to political problems.
Perhaps naively I think that if you can talk about a subject calmly and sensibly it makes it easier to get broad agreement on a policy.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
Do you think 'this person is a racist and has expounded dozens of lies and false conspiracy theories based on racism, but on this occasion we should forget about all that' is a realistic expectation of attitude towards the likes of Robinson & Griffin? On that basis I'll try and approach the effusions of loonball antisemites (which includes Griffin) with a more open mind.
You know, there's probably a lot of wisdom in that thread, but I can't be arsed to read through 120 posts.
Tl;Dr version
Credit agencies and financial institutions effectively blocked the appointment of a hard Eurosceptic finance minister, so the populists have declined to form a government. President will probably appoint a technocrat, further boosting the populists.
The Italian President has surely exceeded his authority, here. Blocking an appointment by a Prime Minister should be on grounds of ethics, not political disagreement.
As far as I can tell, that veto has played right into Five Star's hands.
This truly appears a bonkers situation.
Imagine Jezza getting a majority cobbled together with the SNP and Lib Dem’s etc after weeks of haggling, and then HMQ saying “sorry you can’t have that McDonnell as Chancellor because he’s said some really negative things about capitalism. I’m going to appoint Patrick Minford instead”. There would be uproar, and rightly so.
What a grade A example of “you can vote any way you like as long as it’s in favour of the EU”. The President may well be technically in his rights but we can all see this stinks. It will surely also be counterproductive big time. If there are new elections 5 Star et al can surely just scream from the roff tops “see, were were right all along, in fact they’re even worse than we said”.
So let’s assume we are back in the same place post elections and the President still says no. Pitchfork time?
Lamposts.
But will it though? It feels like it woukd be but given both parties dialled back anti eu talk for a reason, how much will they push it?
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
He also, as I recall, put his views in rather (ahem) colourful and IMV unhelpful language. He might have done better if he had pretended to actually care about the victims involved rather than just screaming. It's easy for people in authority and the media to ignore the ranting nutter in the room.
Of course, the ranting achieved his real aim of getting the thick racists wound up, even if it didn't really help the victims.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
Do you think 'this person is a racist and has expounded dozens of lies and false conspiracy theories based on racism, but on this occasion we should forget about all that' is a realistic expectation of attitude towards the likes of Robinson & Griffin? On that basis I'll try and approach the effusions of loonball antisemites (which includes Griffin) with a more open mind.
I think that it’s better for the authorities to investigate serious crimes that are reported to them, than to dismiss them out of hand because the complainant is a racist. Doing so in this case would have saved thousands of the most vulnerable people in our society from serious harm coming to them, many of whom were in what we euphemistically call the “care” of the State.
I subscribed (even signed up to YouTube) but aren’t getting any notifications when their are new videos (except on here where some bloke appears to be spamming the site with references)... how’s that supposed to work?
Mr. Sandpit, I would be. Both helps Mercedes *and* harms a rival.
Mr. Charles, I watch Youtube a fair bit but don't sign-in (I think Google accounts work now). There have been many complaints about finickity stuff. I believe, could be wrong, you need to click the bell beside the subscription button in order to get alerts for new videos.
You know, there's probably a lot of wisdom in that thread, but I can't be arsed to read through 120 posts.
Tl;Dr version
Credit agencies and financial institutions effectively blocked the appointment of a hard Eurosceptic finance minister, so the populists have declined to form a government. President will probably appoint a technocrat, further boosting the populists.
The Italian President has surely exceeded his authority, here. Blocking an appointment by a Prime Minister should be on grounds of ethics, not political disagreement.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
Do you think 'this person is a racist and has expounded dozens of lies and false conspiracy theories based on racism, but on this occasion we should forget about all that' is a realistic expectation of attitude towards the likes of Robinson & Griffin? On that basis I'll try and approach the effusions of loonball antisemites (which includes Griffin) with a more open mind.
I think that it’s better for the authorities to investigate serious crimes that are reported to them, than to dismiss them out of hand because the complainant is a racist. Doing so in this case would have saved thousands of the most vulnerable people in our society from serious harm coming to them, many of whom were in what we euphemistically call the “care” of the State.
Ah well, if we accept that an open holocaust denier and antisemite should not be dismissed out of hand, I guess that means all the squealing and thrashing on here about Labour's antisemitic problem was a waste of time (as current polling might suggest).
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
He also, as I recall, put his views in rather (ahem) colourful and IMV unhelpful language. He might have done better if he had pretended to actually care about the victims involved rather than just screaming. It's easy for people in authority and the media to ignore the ranting nutter in the room.
Of course, the ranting achieved his real aim of getting the thick racists wound up, even if it didn't really help the victims.
Oh indeed, Griffin’s racist and Islamophobic ranting certainly didn’t help the situation, but IMO his allegations were serious enough that they should have been investigated. Of course the benefit of hindsight makes these decisions much easier.
However more than a cursory investigation would have found a long line of complaints to care home staff and to the police themselves, which were either dismissed out of hand or not investigated for “cultural sensitivity” reasons.
It took an investigation by the Times a decade later to reveal that Griffin was telling the truth about the systematic abuse of children, an early intervention would have made a massive difference to the outcomes of those poor kids.
Great thread header @Cyclefree - by the far the most important impact of immigration is cultural, but that was completely missing from policy makers’ minds when the original decisions to open borders across Europe were taken. I suppose it’s quite easy to ignore the cultural aspect when one’s own nation is/was so homogenous.
In Singapore, they try to preserve the demographic balance by effecting an inverse correlation between ease of immigration and birth rate in the country. Effectively, it’s easier for Chinese than Malays to come to Singapore on a permanent basis.
In general people don't seem to make a clear distinction between managed immigration and less immigration. If you want less immigration, by implication immigration is bad. You therefore stop people coming in and push people out to the greatest extent possible. Windrush, far from being a aberrant muck up, is the deliberate policy of a government addressing a perceived public demand.
If we are to have properly managed immigration, politicians must first make the case for immigration as something that is good.
(One symptom is the increasing foreign ownership of our our utilities.)
The foreign ownership of our utilities is the same as the foreign ownership of any UK asset: an apartment in Pimlico that is rented out, a factory in Sunderland which produces cars, British government debt, etc.
One owns something income producing, and one benefits from the dividend, rent or interest stream.
There is nothing unique or special about utilities, except to remember that the reason why foreigners own these assets is because governments since the Major administration of 1992-95 have prioritized consumption over saving.
One thing special about utilities is they often enjoy de facto monopolies, and another is that in some cases they are subsidised; a third is that having been freed from the dead hand of the state, they might even be owned by foreign states.
The wider points are that the ideological basis for privatisation was nonsense, it was just a magic money tree, and it worsens our balance of payments as dividends flow abroad.
"The ideological basis for privatisation was nonsense"
Why?
And why isn't the ideological basis for nationalisation equally nonsense, given its colourful history of failures?
The ideological basis of many things is nonsense but this is whataboutery. If the government (any government) believes that state ownership of utilities is a bad thing in and of itself, then it should take measures to prevent ownership by foreign states.
It was a valid response to your post.
And your argument is wrong: a utility or whatever owned by *the* state is subject to a heck of a lot of internal pressures, e.g. from unions, the treasury and headlines. A utility or whatever owned by *another* state has much less latitude for nonsense based on headlines and electoral cycles in the 'external' country.
That's not the ideological argument, though, whether it is right or wrong.
What is the 'ideological argument' in your view?
Private good, public bad. Think of Mrs Thatcher's "dead hand of the state".
And now I am off to my very first private sector car boot sale. Based on casual viewing of Antiques Roadshow, I expect to pick up a Van Dyke portrait of Carl Fabergé for 50 pence.
You know, there's probably a lot of wisdom in that thread, but I can't be arsed to read through 120 posts.
Tl;Dr version
Credit agencies and financial institutions effectively blocked the appointment of a hard Eurosceptic finance minister, so the populists have declined to form a government. President will probably appoint a technocrat, further boosting the populists.
The Italian President has surely exceeded his authority, here. Blocking an appointment by a Prime Minister should be on grounds of ethics, not political disagreement.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
Oh indeed, Griffin’s racist and Islamophobic ranting certainly didn’t help the situation, but IMO his allegations were serious enough that they should have been investigated. Of course the benefit of hindsight makes these decisions much easier.
However more than a cursory investigation would have found a long line of complaints to care home staff and to the police themselves, which were either dismissed out of hand or not investigated for “cultural sensitivity” reasons.
It took an investigation by the Times a decade later to reveal that Griffin was telling the truth about the systematic abuse of children, an early intervention would have made a massive difference to the outcomes of those poor kids.
Indeed, but Griffin and his methods might actually have delayed intervention, or given an excuse to delay it.
As an aside, why did it take another decade for the Times or a.n.other publication to break the story, if the truth was as known as you claim? Or was it in fact a very difficult story to break accurately and fairly?
(I cannot remember if the Jay inquiry covered this.)
Agree wholeheartedly with the header. Fairly recognising the value/cost of immigration to society as a whole, rather than sections of society, would be a tremendous achievement.
O/T - great video from @rcs1000 - as with his patient posts here over the years, it helps those of us without economic training to understand the complex nuts and bolts. Thanks!
O/T 2 - just back from 4 days in a flat in Fulham, on the river, near Wandsworth bridge, whilst exhibiting at Battersea Evolution. How do people live in these new developments? They’re way too well insulated, don’t have enough openable windows, and are equipped with loud ventilation systems. I’m going to stick with my favourite 100 year old properties in future....
Agree wholeheartedly with the header. Fairly recognising the value/cost of immigration to society as a whole, rather than sections of society, would be a tremendous achievement.
O/T - great video from @rcs1000 - as with his patient posts here over the years, it helps those of us without economic training to understand the complex nuts and bolts. Thanks!
O/T 2 - just back from 4 days in a flat in Fulham, on the river, near Wandsworth bridge, whilst exhibiting at Battersea Evolution. How do people live in these new developments? They’re way too well insulated, don’t have enough openable windows, and are equipped with loud ventilation systems. I’m going to stick with my favourite 100 year old properties in future....
You made the mistake in going during the brief interlude that passes for summer. Most of the year good insulation and limited window space is a bonus.
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
Do you think 'this person is a racist and has expounded dozens of lies and false conspiracy theories based on racism, but on this occasion we should forget about all that' is a realistic expectation of attitude towards the likes of Robinson & Griffin? On that basis I'll try and approach the effusions of loonball antisemites (which includes Griffin) with a more open mind.
I think that it’s better for the authorities to investigate serious crimes that are reported to them, than to dismiss them out of hand because the complainant is a racist. Doing so in this case would have saved thousands of the most vulnerable people in our society from serious harm coming to them, many of whom were in what we euphemistically call the “care” of the State.
Ah well, if we accept that an open holocaust denier and antisemite should not be dismissed out of hand, I guess that means all the squealing and thrashing on here about Labour's antisemitic problem was a waste of time (as current polling might suggest).
It’s perfectly legitimate to debate and point out the views of politicians and political parties, that’s what’s known as freedom of speech and political debate - and no-one gets physically hurt in the process.
That is very different from authorities failing to investigate allegations of crimes as serious as those that were reported to them in Rotherham and elsewhere.
Personally I’m not in favour of laws that restrict speech, other than what might cause panic or incitement to violence. I’m also not in favour of authorities ignoring laws we have in place to protect children from sexual violence.
You know, there's probably a lot of wisdom in that thread, but I can't be arsed to read through 120 posts.
Tl;Dr version
Credit agencies and financial institutions effectively blocked the appointment of a hard Eurosceptic finance minister, so the populists have declined to form a government. President will probably appoint a technocrat, further boosting the populists.
The Italian President has surely exceeded his authority, here. Blocking an appointment by a Prime Minister should be on grounds of ethics, not political disagreement.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
(One symptom is the increasing foreign ownership of our our utilities.)
The foreign ownership of our utilities is the same as the foreign ownership of any UK asset: an apartment in Pimlico that is rented out, a factory in Sunderland which produces cars, British government debt, etc.
One owns something income producing, and one benefits from the dividend, rent or interest stream.
There is nothing unique or special about utilities, except to remember that the reason why foreigners own these assets is because governments since the Major administration of 1992-95 have prioritized consumption over saving.
One thing special about utilities is they often enjoy de facto monopolies, and another is that in some cases they are subsidised; a third is that having been freed from the dead hand of the state, they might even be owned by foreign states.
The wider points are that the ideological basis for privatisation was nonsense, it was just a magic money tree, and it worsens our balance of payments as dividends flow abroad.
"The ideological basis for privatisation was nonsense"
Why?
And why isn't the ideological basis for nationalisation equally nonsense, given its colourful history of failures?
The ideological basis of many things is nonsense but this is whataboutery. If the government (any government) believes that state ownership of utilities is a bad thing in and of itself, then it should take measures to prevent ownership by foreign states.
It was a valid response to your post.
And your argument is wrong: a utility or whatever owned by *the* state is subject to a heck of a lot of internal pressures, e.g. from unions, the treasury and headlines. A utility or whatever owned by *another* state has much less latitude for nonsense based on headlines and electoral cycles in the 'external' country.
That's not the ideological argument, though, whether it is right or wrong.
What is the 'ideological argument' in your view?
Private good, public bad. Think of Mrs Thatcher's "dead hand of the state".
And now I am off to my very first private sector car boot sale. Based on casual viewing of Antiques Roadshow, I expect to pick up a Van Dyke portrait of Carl Fabergé for 50 pence.
Except that private companies owned by foreign states are still private companies by and large. They operate without the dead hand and are in our nation not for the whims of politicians but to make a profit.
In general people don't seem to make a clear distinction between managed immigration and less immigration. If you want less immigration, by implication immigration is bad. You therefore stop people coming in and push people out to the greatest extent possible. Windrush, far from being a aberrant muck up, is the deliberate policy of a government addressing a perceived public demand.
If we are to have properly managed immigration, politicians must first make the case for immigration as something that is good.
We cannot debate immigration sensibly as long as we refuse to distinguish between different groups. The Left knows this, which is why they are always so keen to conflate all kinds of immigration (asylum seekers/legal/illegal) to drown out a meaningful discussion.
I don’t see why we shouldn’t prioritise or strongly restrict immigration from different countries, rather than the agnostic approach we have for non-EU nationals.
Agree wholeheartedly with the header. Fairly recognising the value/cost of immigration to society as a whole, rather than sections of society, would be a tremendous achievement.
O/T - great video from @rcs1000 - as with his patient posts here over the years, it helps those of us without economic training to understand the complex nuts and bolts. Thanks!
O/T 2 - just back from 4 days in a flat in Fulham, on the river, near Wandsworth bridge, whilst exhibiting at Battersea Evolution. How do people live in these new developments? They’re way too well insulated, don’t have enough openable windows, and are equipped with loud ventilation systems. I’m going to stick with my favourite 100 year old properties in future....
You made the mistake in going during the brief interlude that passes for summer. Most of the year good insulation and limited window space is a bonus.
I struggle to sleep without a window open even in the winter. Just gets too stuffy!
The only thing that made the place worthwhile was the river view. I couldn’t quite understand why a really loud ventilation system needed to be on 24/7, presumably at ongoing electricity cost. Fitting more windows would seem to be the logical green approach to that...
You know, there's probably a lot of wisdom in that thread, but I can't be arsed to read through 120 posts.
Tl;Dr version
Credit agencies and financial institutions effectively blocked the appointment of a hard Eurosceptic finance minister, so the populists have declined to form a government. President will probably appoint a technocrat, further boosting the populists.
The Italian President has surely exceeded his authority, here. Blocking an appointment by a Prime Minister should be on grounds of ethics, not political disagreement.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
O/T Support for the Popular Party in Spain is in free fall.
Who is picking up the support PP are losing?Ciudadanos?
Mainly. There's quite a few ex PP members in Ciudadanos, including its leader. Cs portrays itself as centre left or centrist but is strongly Spanish nationalist/anti Catalan indy (it began in Catalonia), and seems to attract quite a few extremists from the right. Interesting to compare with the (ir)resistible rise of Ruth Davidson..
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
Agree wholeheartedly with the header. Fairly recognising the value/cost of immigration to society as a whole, rather than sections of society, would be a tremendous achievement.
O/T - great video from @rcs1000 - as with his patient posts here over the years, it helps those of us without economic training to understand the complex nuts and bolts. Thanks!
O/T 2 - just back from 4 days in a flat in Fulham, on the river, near Wandsworth bridge, whilst exhibiting at Battersea Evolution. How do people live in these new developments? They’re way too well insulated, don’t have enough openable windows, and are equipped with loud ventilation systems. I’m going to stick with my favourite 100 year old properties in future....
You made the mistake in going during the brief interlude that passes for summer. Most of the year good insulation and limited window space is a bonus.
I struggle to sleep without a window open even in the winter. Just gets too stuffy!
The only thing that made the place worthwhile was the river view. I couldn’t quite understand why a really loud ventilation system needed to be on 24/7, presumably at ongoing electricity cost. Fitting more windows would seem to be the logical green approach to that...
It is harder to meet the insulation spec with more glass. If you have to go from double glazed to triple glazed panes this costs money.
I have heard from various people that there is a big problem trying to cool down modern apartments. Even with the windows open, they are typically only on one side of the building, so no through air. Of course, A/C would do the trick, but we're talking more Capex and Opex again.
Private good, public bad. Think of Mrs Thatcher's "dead hand of the state".
And now I am off to my very first private sector car boot sale. Based on casual viewing of Antiques Roadshow, I expect to pick up a Van Dyke portrait of Carl Fabergé for 50 pence.
We're getting rather off the point here, but the privately owned utilities are essentially private companies, and the 'dead hand' comment (which has some truth in it but is overplayed) does not apply IMO because there is separation between *our* state and the company. Basically, problems occur when there is too little separation between the utility and the owning state.
You've never been to a car boot sale before? Be careful, they can be addictive, as long as you can separate gems from tat.
A year or so ago we picked up a few small brass items, beautifully handmade, than we think must have been apprentice pieces. Worthless but beautiful items that must have some quiet personal history.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
It is a complete mess. The country had debts of 130% of GDP. It is not growing and hasn't grown for 10 years. It has chronic unemployment problems and much of young talent is voting with their feet. The 2 parties who did best in the election promised lots more spending and tax cuts. It is obvious this is not consistent with Euro membership but that frankly doesn't bother them too much. The President is concerned that that indifference and the wild economic policies will increase the interest rate on Italian debt, something the country cannot afford. It's not hard to understand his position but that is what people voted for.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
It is a complete mess. The country had debts of 130% of GDP. It is not growing and hasn't grown for 10 years. It has chronic unemployment problems and much of young talent is voting with their feet. The 2 parties who did best in the election promised lots more spending and tax cuts. It is obvious this is not consistent with Euro membership but that frankly doesn't bother them too much. The President is concerned that that indifference and the wild economic policies will increase the interest rate on Italian debt, something the country cannot afford. It's not hard to understand his position but that is what people voted for.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
And given the example of Greece even if 5S and were thinking of leaving it, they probably wouldn't end up doing so, when push comes to shove.
Mr. kle4, that being so, what's the choice for Italy and Greece? Perpetual decline?
Italy used to devalue its currency a lot. Now it finds itself in the opposite position to Germany, which benefits from having a weaker currency than it would with the Deutschmark. Of course, Germany's happy with that. But the Italians are not, and can't devalue.
The current model is unsustainable but the varying paths (leave the euro or integrate the eurozone more, including things like common taxation/fiscal transfers) also seem politically impossible.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
It is a complete mess. The country had debts of 130% of GDP. It is not growing and hasn't grown for 10 years. It has chronic unemployment problems and much of young talent is voting with their feet. The 2 parties who did best in the election promised lots more spending and tax cuts. It is obvious this is not consistent with Euro membership but that frankly doesn't bother them too much. The President is concerned that that indifference and the wild economic policies will increase the interest rate on Italian debt, something the country cannot afford. It's not hard to understand his position but that is what people voted for.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
That’s certainly the only way it’s possible to do it.
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
Mr. kle4, that being so, what's the choice for Italy and Greece? Perpetual decline?
I don't know, but if the Euro is preventing a fix for their problems (it is beyond me if that is the case), yet they are not prepared to leave it, nor even to countenance a path where they might, then possibly.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
I don't think that's true (re Nick Griffin first raising it). Ann Cryer MP was talking about it as well.
Whoever first raised it is irrelevant at this point. The important thing is to have trials of those engaged in this evil. What Robinson is doing - and he was warned about this by the judge at his previous trial - is endangering those trials thus making it less likely that the guilty will be punished and the victims get justice. That is why he is now in prison - not because the government is trying to shut him up - but because the judicial system is trying to preserve the integrity of the trials.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
It is a complete mess. The country had debts of 130% of GDP. It is not growing and hasn't grown for 10 years. It has chronic unemployment problems and much of young talent is voting with their feet. The 2 parties who did best in the election promised lots more spending and tax cuts. It is obvious this is not consistent with Euro membership but that frankly doesn't bother them too much. The President is concerned that that indifference and the wild economic policies will increase the interest rate on Italian debt, something the country cannot afford. It's not hard to understand his position but that is what people voted for.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
And given the example of Greece even if 5S and were thinking of leaving it, they probably wouldn't end up doing so, when push comes to shove.
I say capital flight, you say reallocation of assets into financial products which have a broader range than Italian Bonds. I say, hmm.....
What we saw in Greece is that this short term funding means that the ECB can close down the entire Italian Banking system whenever they feel like it. It is an immense power that can bring a government to its knees. Hence the Coalition's proposal that E250bn of bonds held by the ECB be cancelled.
Mr. kle4, that being so, what's the choice for Italy and Greece? Perpetual decline?
Italy used to devalue its currency a lot. Now it finds itself in the opposite position to Germany, which benefits from having a weaker currency than it would with the Deutschmark. Of course, Germany's happy with that. But the Italians are not, and can't devalue.
The current model is unsustainable but the varying paths (leave the euro or integrate the eurozone more, including things like common taxation/fiscal transfers) also seem politically impossible.
It’s not so much that the Euro has been a disaster, but that it has held a light up to the fundamental weaknesses of Italy.
What do they need to do?
Restrain the growth of public spending, especially pensions
Make it much easier to hire and fire
Sort out their judicial system, which is pretty hopeless for timely dispute resolution
Come down like a ton of bricks on the mafia, and other instances of corruption and organised crime
Improve the education system
It’s not all bad - private debt is relatively low and I believe the current account is not in persistent deficit like ours. Italy is a bit like Argentina- they will not elect a government to do what is necessary, because shysters keep selling them the dream that they can have their cake and eat it.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
That’s certainly the only way it’s possible to do it.
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
That doesn't strike me as terribly democratic. I'm all for Italy leaving the Euro, after a referendum. It would be interesting to watch the EU throwing the kitchen sink at getting them to vote the 'right way'.
Interestingly, this is exactly what my Eurodevil from Milan forecast would happen about 10 days ago. He has been spot on so far. I will need to speak to him again to get an update about where they go next.
Im wondering if they go impeach Matterella and replace him with Berlusconi
It is a complete mess. The country had dewhat people voted for.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
And given the example of Greece even if 5S and were thinking of leaving it, they probably wouldn't end up doing so, when push comes to shove.
I say capital flight, you say reallocation of assets into financial products which have a broader range than Italian Bonds. I say, hmm.....
What we saw in Greece is that this short term funding means that the ECB can close down the entire Italian Banking system whenever they feel like it. It is an immense power that can bring a government to its knees. Hence the Coalition's proposal that E250bn of bonds held by the ECB be cancelled.
on the other hand while that is a huge threat, it's not without consequence for the ECB and the Euro either. It's now a question of who is best at brinkmanship. A Europe which stands back as one of its founder members is driven in to the ground cant function for long. The project will be dead.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
That’s certainly the only way it’s possible to do it.
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
That doesn't strike me as terribly democratic. I'm all for Italy leaving the Euro, after a referendum. It would be interesting to watch the EU throwing the kitchen sink at getting them to vote the 'right way'.
After the Brexit and Oxi referendums, perhaps the "right way" from the EU's perspective is for people to vote against because it forces domestic politicians to face the reality of their anti-EU rhetoric.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
Oh indeed, Griffin’s racist and Islamophobic ranting certainly didn’t help the situation, but IMO his allegations were serious enough that they should have been investigated. Of course the benefit of hindsight makes these decisions much easier.
However more than a cursory investigation would have found a long line of complaints to care home staff and to the police themselves, which were either dismissed out of hand or not investigated for “cultural sensitivity” reasons.
It took an investigation by the Times a decade later to reveal that Griffin was telling the truth about the systematic abuse of children, an early intervention would have made a massive difference to the outcomes of those poor kids.
Indeed, but Griffin and his methods might actually have delayed intervention, or given an excuse to delay it.
As an aside, why did it take another decade for the Times or a.n.other publication to break the story, if the truth was as known as you claim? Or was it in fact a very difficult story to break accurately and fairly?
(I cannot remember if the Jay inquiry covered this.)
Didn't the journalist who eventually broke the story say that he turned away from it initially because he couldn't face it and was concerned about the possible implications? It did take a lot of work to make it stand up but there was a delay before he even started because of his own misgivings about the use that might be made of it by those with a sinister agenda. It was a commendably honest statement for him to make and shows how hard it is to whistleblow or speak up about bad stuff when you know or suspect that what you are saying might be misused.
It might have been better if people had listened to those MPs who were raising these concerns. The diaries of Chris Mullin from that time show that there were plenty of people within the Labour Party in these areas who knew enough to know that there was a problem but who, for various reasons, were unwilling to go public and/or were criticised or shunned when they did so.
It is a complete mess. The country had dewhat people voted for.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
And given the example of Greece even if 5S and were thinking of leaving it, they probably wouldn't end up doing so, when push comes to shove.
I say capital flight, you say reallocation of assets into financial products which have a broader range than Italian Bonds. I say, hmm.....
What we saw in Greece is that this short term funding means that the ECB can close down the entire Italian Banking system whenever they feel like it. It is an immense power that can bring a government to its knees. Hence the Coalition's proposal that E250bn of bonds held by the ECB be cancelled.
on the other hand while that is a huge threat, it's not without consequence for the ECB and the Euro either. It's now a question of who is best at brinkmanship. A Europe which stands back as one of its founder members is driven in to the ground cant function for long. The project will be dead.
I agree with that. Italy is not Greece. An Italian default would stress the entire Euro system to its very limits. But a government who faces the risk that all autotellers will stop producing notes the very next day needs balls of steel to negotiate in a meaningful way. Italy is a much greater threat to the progress of the EU than Brexit will ever be. Unfortunately it is also an enormous risk to what is still a very important market for us.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
The comment you're replying to says, "We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions."
The UK also needs to be a country that is attractive to those we want to attract. We are in a competition for talent. Low-skill, no-skill immigrants will accept whatever regime is imposed, or work illegally, those higher up the skills ladder will not.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
That’s certainly the only way it’s possible to do it.
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
That doesn't strike me as terribly democratic. I'm all for Italy leaving the Euro, after a referendum. It would be interesting to watch the EU throwing the kitchen sink at getting them to vote the 'right way'.
After the Brexit and Oxi referendums, perhaps the "right way" from the EU's perspective is for people to vote against because it forces domestic politicians to face the reality of their anti-EU rhetoric.
The Euro is a political, ideological project. Losing a founder member from their beloved single currency would devastate them.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
That’s certainly the only way it’s possible to do it.
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
That doesn't strike me as terribly democratic. I'm all for Italy leaving the Euro, after a referendum. It would be interesting to watch the EU throwing the kitchen sink at getting them to vote the 'right way'.
If by kitchen sink you mean endless warnings of doom and gloom if the vote goes against them. The EU virtually ignored Greece's referendum - albeit not a Euro one - both before, during and after the result.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
It was under the arch federalist PM Thatcher that we went into the ERM.
Well, it's only 6th - so above reading entrails for a take!
5.1 Reading the entrails of fish. 6.1 Pulling the entrails out of British commentators with strong ideological positions on Brexit just for the fun of it.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
The comment you're replying to says, "We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions."
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
Yes and if we'd joined the currency union with debt-to-GDP ratio of ~40% rather than close to 100% then that'd be a very different scenario.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
I'd be buying that house in Chamonix I've always wanted on the Monday after that cock and balls show. The Euro would be worth about 2p.
Why buy a house in a French town?
I've already got one. The one I hypothetically buy in the turmoil following the Italian exit from the Eurozone would be just be bigger and nicer. Hopefully like Oleg Tinkov's house.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
It was under the arch federalist PM Thatcher that we went into the ERM.
She did more for EU intergration than Ted Heath.
Thatcher 1988: "Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
The comment you're replying to says, "We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions."
Very good thread header from Cyclefree even if I don't entirely agree with the conclusions. I think it is a mistake to equate free movement and unlimited migration with an inability to control crime.
Firstly I am not sure that the evidence shows that immigrants are more likely to commit crime than those already living in a country. Are Poles in Britain notably more criminal than English or Scots?
Secondly free movement does not have to equal no border controls. It is entirely possible to have a basic principle and practice of freedom of movement but still have controls to stop those with criminal records or who are considered a risk to the country. The important point being this should be on an individual basis not by country of origin, skin colour or religion.
I think Schengen is a dumb idea because it removes important controls on the movement of terrorists and criminals and is unnecessary in a situation where there is already the principle of freedom of movement.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
It was under the arch federalist PM Thatcher that we went into the ERM.
@leonardocarella - who seems pretty well informed on Italian politics had some tweets which he appears to have deleted, suggesting that the problem was the coalition partners had talked of pulling out of the Euro, discussed how it would have to be done in total secrecy over a weekend, then subsequently removed any such mention of such a plan from their agreement. The President may have smelled a rat - hence his comment on 'none of you campaigned on leaving the Euro' - the only surviving tweet of that thread:
That’s certainly the only way it’s possible to do it.
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
That doesn't strike me as terribly democratic. I'm all for Italy leaving the Euro, after a referendum. It would be interesting to watch the EU throwing the kitchen sink at getting them to vote the 'right way'.
There’s no democratic way of doing it, without everyone emptying their bank accounts and keeping their savings under the mattress in US$ in the run up to the referendum. Just calling a vote on such a subject would crash the Italian banking system no matter what the result.
I can see the technocratic government in Italy lasting all of a month, with no way to pass any bills against the majority of MPs. A new election almost certainly beckons, and plenty more uncertainty to come.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
Yes and if we'd joined the currency union with debt-to-GDP ratio of ~40% rather than close to 100% then that'd be a very different scenario.
If only Blair had gone a step further. Instead of merely sticking to Clarke's spending plans, he should have just left Clarke and Major in charge while he acted as the front man. Ironically he would have secured more of the legacy he really wanted than by delegating domestic policy to Brown.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
Yes and if we'd joined the currency union with debt-to-GDP ratio of ~40% rather than close to 100% then that'd be a very different scenario.
Not really. We would still have lost control of interest rates which means that our apparently inevitable housing booms would have been even more difficult to control, see Eire and Spain for examples. Like Italy, we would have struggled to retain competitiveness without the occasional depreciation of the currency. The Euro rules that allowed Greece, Italy and Portugal in would not have done much to stop the ruination of Gordon Brown. Indeed, in the short term as the housing boom blasted away, he would have had even more money to waste.
Not really. We would still have lost control of interest rates which means that our apparently inevitable housing booms would have been even more difficult to control, see Eire and Spain for examples.
Interest rates are a terrible way to control a housing boom when you can do it much more easily and directly by regulating the mortgage market. Would being in the Euro have forced us to turn a blind eye to 125% loans from Northern Rock?
Oh indeed, Griffin’s racist and Islamophobic ranting certainly didn’t help the situation, but IMO his allegations were serious enough that they should have been investigated. Of course the benefit of hindsight makes these decisions much easier.
However more than a cursory investigation would have found a long line of complaints to care home staff and to the police themselves, which were either dismissed out of hand or not investigated for “cultural sensitivity” reasons.
It took an investigation by the Times a decade later to reveal that Griffin was telling the truth about the systematic abuse of children, an early intervention would have made a massive difference to the outcomes of those poor kids.
Indeed, but Griffin and his methods might actually have delayed intervention, or given an excuse to delay it.
As an aside, why did it take another decade for the Times or a.n.other publication to break the story, if the truth was as known as you claim? Or was it in fact a very difficult story to break accurately and fairly?
(I cannot remember if the Jay inquiry covered this.)
Didn't the journalist who eventually broke the story say that he turned away from it initially because he couldn't face it and was concerned about the possible implications? It did take a lot of work to make it stand up but there was a delay before he even started because of his own misgivings about the use that might be made of it by those with a sinister agenda. It was a commendably honest statement for him to make and shows how hard it is to whistleblow or speak up about bad stuff when you know or suspect that what you are saying might be misused.
It might have been better if people had listened to those MPs who were raising these concerns. The diaries of Chris Mullin from that time show that there were plenty of people within the Labour Party in these areas who knew enough to know that there was a problem but who, for various reasons, were unwilling to go public and/or were criticised or shunned when they did so.
I think you might be right about the history.
As for your last paragraph: look at the way the left responded to the Stafford scandal. They utterly denied what was going on, and hounded the whistleblower out of town.
Very good thread header from Cyclefree even if I don't entirely agree with the conclusions. I think it is a mistake to equate free movement and unlimited migration with an inability to control crime.
Firstly I am not sure that the evidence shows that immigrants are more likely to commit crime than those already living in a country. Are Poles in Britain notably more criminal than English or Scots?
Secondly free movement does not have to equal no border controls. It is entirely possible to have a basic principle and practice of freedom of movement but still have controls to stop those with criminal records or who are considered a risk to the country. The important point being this should be on an individual basis not by country of origin, skin colour or religion.
I think Schengen is a dumb idea because it removes important controls on the movement of terrorists and criminals and is unnecessary in a situation where there is already the principle of freedom of movement.
I don't think I am saying that immigrants commit more crimes. I certainly don't think that. I do think that migrants who come here illegally should be dealt with and not get the benefit of their illegal actions.
I am not clear in practice how you have freedom of movement and stop those with criminal records or who are considered a risk. How do you do this?
Also I would widen the categories of those you might refuse to those who are not desirable to the country i.e. those whom the country thinks would on balance be more of a burden than an asset - however that is defined.
Italy needs a debt reduction. The powers that be to date have refused to go along with it. I have some sympathy for the german view that Italy needs to do more, but as with the Greek problem it was allowed in to the system by the EU turning a blind eye to the economic data. The germans and others are complicit in Italy and Greece's misfortune and now want to forget their role.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
To be fair to Major we wouldn't have been in a straight jacket because under him and with the other arch-Europhile Chancellor Ken Clarke our economy was in a very healthy position. We would have entered the Euro with low debts, low deficit, manageable taxation and spending levels, manageable pensions.
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
I seem to remember it was Major took us in to the ERM, I cant think of why he would have done so except ultimately to move to currency union.
Yes and if we'd joined the currency union with debt-to-GDP ratio of ~40% rather than close to 100% then that'd be a very different scenario.
Not really. We would still have lost control of interest rates which means that our apparently inevitable housing booms would have been even more difficult to control, see Eire and Spain for examples. Like Italy, we would have struggled to retain competitiveness without the occasional depreciation of the currency. The Euro rules that allowed Greece, Italy and Portugal in would not have done much to stop the ruination of Gordon Brown. Indeed, in the short term as the housing boom blasted away, he would have had even more money to waste.
yup
then add in that the UK economic cycle is about 2 years ahead of the mainland Europe one and we would have had two decades of painful adjustment to make
O/T Support for the Popular Party in Spain is in free fall.
Who is picking up the support PP are losing?Ciudadanos?
Mainly. There's quite a few ex PP members in Ciudadanos, including its leader. Cs portrays itself as centre left or centrist but is strongly Spanish nationalist/anti Catalan indy (it began in Catalonia), and seems to attract quite a few extremists from the right. Interesting to compare with the (ir)resistible rise of Ruth Davidson..
Ciudadanos was founded in Catalonia as a party opposed to Catalan independence. That does not make it a Spanish nationalist party. It has picked up support from both the Socialists and PP. It also won most votes in the recent Catalan elections. If Rivera became Spanish PM he would be the first Catalan and Catalan speaker ever to get the job.
Of course, the current Catalan president is a right wing Catalan supremacist who has shown nothing but contempt for the Spanish speaking poor whose labours made Catalonia wealthy.
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
Do you think 'this person is a racist and has expounded dozens of lies and false conspiracy theories based on racism, but on this occasion we should forget about all that' is a realistic expectation of attitude towards the likes of Robinson & Griffin? On that basis I'll try and approach the effusions of loonball antisemites (which includes Griffin) with a more open mind.
If there’s a serious allegation it should be investigated with an open mind. You may place less weight on an individual’s evidence based on track record however
While I'm on the subject, my definition of "an activist* as produced by the BBC …
"An unemployed and unemployable know-it-all, impervious to logic, who knows someone at the BBC who's easily impressed by rants rather than facts."
Tommy Robinson and/or his disciples?
He seemed to know more about the grooming gangs before it was exposed.more than some on here who are in the legal trade who just shouted Racist.
Rants and facts and all that.
Do you think Tommy Robinson, or that other great hero of exposing grooming by brown skinned chaps Nick Griffin, are racists? If so, do you think that shouldn't be mentioned?
Nick Griffin was the first person talking openly about what was going on in places like Rotherham. It was easier for everyone else to simply dismiss him as a racist than to look closer at the truth of what he was actually saying.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
I don't think that's true (re Nick Griffin first raising it). Ann Cryer MP was talking about it as well.
Whoever first raised it is irrelevant at this point. The important thing is to have trials of those engaged in this evil. What Robinson is doing - and he was warned about this by the judge at his previous trial - is endangering those trials thus making it less likely that the guilty will be punished and the victims get justice. That is why he is now in prison - not because the government is trying to shut him up - but because the judicial system is trying to preserve the integrity of the trials.
Indeed so. Robinson is an arse who’s now in the right place despite what his fan club (including someone on here last night) would like us to believe.
Completely off-topic. Thanks so much to everyone for their comments on my inaugural post about the US mid-term elections. I was away at the weekend so could not post but wanted to say thanks!
Btw, one thing I did not mention in the post but is interesting is how the Republicans are now trying to weaken the Democrats hold on the African-American vote. Trump's pardon last week of the boxer Jack Johnson is but the latest example (short synopsis: Jackson was a Black boxer in the early 20th Century, was framed for a crime under the Mann Act due to his relationships with white women and there have been calls for a pardon fr several decades) with Republicans citing how the AA unemployment rate is the lowest in decades and attempts now being made at federal prison reform.
Comments
The new series on BBC 3 "Romper Stomper" shows the changing face of Australia in an interesting light. The original film is on catchup too, and worth catching, albeit very violent and disturbing.
It's oft-quoted that 90% of Australia is uninhabitable which is reasonably true (though of course some aborigines and others do live in that 10%) but 10% of Australia's area is still 3x the UK's area.
Makes me wonder though why Europe's population is stagnating and why Australia and America aren't. Migration is part of the story but not the whole story. If Europe were growing at the same rate as Oceania it'd comfortably be over 2 billion by the end but its declining instead.
Modern politics has a big problem with dismissing an argument as unarguable because it comes from a bad person - for the record I think Nick Griffin is a racist and a bad person - rather than engaging with what someone actually has to say.
See Jordan Peterson for a more recent example of someone demonised and “othered” rather than engaged with.
The infamous poster was obviously an appeal to the former, but there's been attempts by the latter to pretend repudiation of that means support of their own extreme position, when as you note legitimate concerns are held by most across a wide range of countries.
Mr. Sandpit, unsure if you saw it before, but I've checked and the commenting seems to work on my blog. It may be a problem from your side, or a temporary problem that's since mended itself.
Edit: I wonder if Toto Wolff is looking at getting Ricciardo’s signature for next season?
As Robinson was then. That does not make him right now, or mean his recent actions are somehow correct.
This is another sad side to the sick mishandling of events in Rotherham et al: it has led to a nasty racist gaining, for however brief a period, the moral high ground. And it's an indication that something's utterly borken when someone like Robinson has the moral high ground over the authorities.
Of course, the ranting achieved his real aim of getting the thick racists wound up, even if it didn't really help the victims.
On Women’s Hour last week they were interviewing the winner...
“I designed the garden using Mediterranean flora”
“They’re drought resistant aren’t they. I guess that means you are worried about climate change. Are you trying to send a message?”
“No. I’m passionate about introducing new plants”
“So why Mediterranean? Are you trying to say something about Europe?”
“No. I just like the diversity of options”
“Ah. Diversity...”
Etc etc
Mr. Charles, I watch Youtube a fair bit but don't sign-in (I think Google accounts work now). There have been many complaints about finickity stuff. I believe, could be wrong, you need to click the bell beside the subscription button in order to get alerts for new videos.
Slapping down 5*/Lega over the issue of the EU will make them more Eurosceptic
However more than a cursory investigation would have found a long line of complaints to care home staff and to the police themselves, which were either dismissed out of hand or not investigated for “cultural sensitivity” reasons.
It took an investigation by the Times a decade later to reveal that Griffin was telling the truth about the systematic abuse of children, an early intervention would have made a massive difference to the outcomes of those poor kids.
In Singapore, they try to preserve the demographic balance by effecting an inverse correlation between ease of immigration and birth rate in the country. Effectively, it’s easier for Chinese than Malays to come to Singapore on a permanent basis.
If we are to have properly managed immigration, politicians must first make the case for immigration as something that is good.
And now I am off to my very first private sector car boot sale. Based on casual viewing of Antiques Roadshow, I expect to pick up a Van Dyke portrait of Carl Fabergé for 50 pence.
As an aside, why did it take another decade for the Times or a.n.other publication to break the story, if the truth was as known as you claim? Or was it in fact a very difficult story to break accurately and fairly?
(I cannot remember if the Jay inquiry covered this.)
O/T - great video from @rcs1000 - as with his patient posts here over the years, it helps those of us without economic training to understand the complex nuts and bolts. Thanks!
O/T 2 - just back from 4 days in a flat in Fulham, on the river, near Wandsworth bridge, whilst exhibiting at Battersea Evolution. How do people live in these new developments? They’re way too well insulated, don’t have enough openable windows, and are equipped with loud ventilation systems. I’m going to stick with my favourite 100 year old properties in future....
That is very different from authorities failing to investigate allegations of crimes as serious as those that were reported to them in Rotherham and elsewhere.
Personally I’m not in favour of laws that restrict speech, other than what might cause panic or incitement to violence. I’m also not in favour of authorities ignoring laws we have in place to protect children from sexual violence.
https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1000973266884886528
I don’t see why we shouldn’t prioritise or strongly restrict immigration from different countries, rather than the agnostic approach we have for non-EU nationals.
I struggle to sleep without a window open even in the winter. Just gets too stuffy!
The only thing that made the place worthwhile was the river view. I couldn’t quite understand why a really loud ventilation system needed to be on 24/7, presumably at ongoing electricity cost. Fitting more windows would seem to be the logical green approach to that...
Mr. Sandpit, well, quite.
https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1000974097948528641
I have heard from various people that there is a big problem trying to cool down modern apartments. Even with the windows open, they are typically only on one side of the building, so no through air. Of course, A/C would do the trick, but we're talking more Capex and Opex again.
You've never been to a car boot sale before? Be careful, they can be addictive, as long as you can separate gems from tat.
A year or so ago we picked up a few small brass items, beautifully handmade, than we think must have been apprentice pieces. Worthless but beautiful items that must have some quiet personal history.
Euro membership has undoubtedly been a total disaster for Italy, massively damaging what had hitherto been a very successful economy. That does not mean leaving it is a viable option. As Greece found when it looked over the precipice the consequences of doing so look terrifying to those with money.
Italy used to devalue its currency a lot. Now it finds itself in the opposite position to Germany, which benefits from having a weaker currency than it would with the Deutschmark. Of course, Germany's happy with that. But the Italians are not, and can't devalue.
The current model is unsustainable but the varying paths (leave the euro or integrate the eurozone more, including things like common taxation/fiscal transfers) also seem politically impossible.
I look at Italy and think idiots like Major and Blair would have had us in the same straight jacket
Announce after the markets close on Friday, alongside several days of bank holidays, be prepared for ATM queues and panic buying of food leading to empty shelves by Monday. Meanwhile dust off the old Lira printing presses get them running 24/7 and hope to get the new notes out by the end of the week.
It’s just about possible, but to say it would be massively chaotic is something of an understatement!
Whoever first raised it is irrelevant at this point. The important thing is to have trials of those engaged in this evil. What Robinson is doing - and he was warned about this by the judge at his previous trial - is endangering those trials thus making it less likely that the guilty will be punished and the victims get justice. That is why he is now in prison - not because the government is trying to shut him up - but because the judicial system is trying to preserve the integrity of the trials.
I say capital flight, you say reallocation of assets into financial products which have a broader range than Italian Bonds. I say, hmm.....
What we saw in Greece is that this short term funding means that the ECB can close down the entire Italian Banking system whenever they feel like it. It is an immense power that can bring a government to its knees. Hence the Coalition's proposal that E250bn of bonds held by the ECB be cancelled.
What do they need to do?
Restrain the growth of public spending, especially pensions
Make it much easier to hire and fire
Sort out their judicial system, which is pretty hopeless for timely dispute resolution
Come down like a ton of bricks on the mafia, and other instances of corruption and organised crime
Improve the education system
It’s not all bad - private debt is relatively low and I believe the current account is not in persistent deficit like ours. Italy is a bit like Argentina- they will not elect a government to do what is necessary, because shysters keep selling them the dream that they can have their cake and eat it.
Sound familiar?
It was Gordon Brown who drove a wrecking ball through our economy that still hasn't been fixed and would have made us more like Greece and Italy than like Germany. Blair made Brown Chancellor and kept him there so he gets no such forgiveness.
No they haven't. But, there again, Roger may not have got up yet.
The last time I wrote a header on immigration he accused me of being a fascist. But then he read it and withdrew the accusation.
I like Roger I would add - but he does occasionally have some idees fixe....
It might have been better if people had listened to those MPs who were raising these concerns. The diaries of Chris Mullin from that time show that there were plenty of people within the Labour Party in these areas who knew enough to know that there was a problem but who, for various reasons, were unwilling to go public and/or were criticised or shunned when they did so.
She did more for EU intergration than Ted Heath.
6.1 Pulling the entrails out of British commentators with strong ideological positions on Brexit just for the fun of it.
Firstly I am not sure that the evidence shows that immigrants are more likely to commit crime than those already living in a country. Are Poles in Britain notably more criminal than English or Scots?
Secondly free movement does not have to equal no border controls. It is entirely possible to have a basic principle and practice of freedom of movement but still have controls to stop those with criminal records or who are considered a risk to the country. The important point being this should be on an individual basis not by country of origin, skin colour or religion.
I think Schengen is a dumb idea because it removes important controls on the movement of terrorists and criminals and is unnecessary in a situation where there is already the principle of freedom of movement.
Sergio Ramos
European footballer of the year
Yet despite those problems, and as RCS has pointed out, Italy was a tiger economy, up till the early nineties.
Regular devaluations of the lira, combined with good quality products, made them a champion exporter.
I can see the technocratic government in Italy lasting all of a month, with no way to pass any bills against the majority of MPs. A new election almost certainly beckons, and plenty more uncertainty to come.
As for your last paragraph: look at the way the left responded to the Stafford scandal. They utterly denied what was going on, and hounded the whistleblower out of town.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/27/julie-bailey-mid-staffordshire-nhs-whistleblower
I am not clear in practice how you have freedom of movement and stop those with criminal records or who are considered a risk. How do you do this?
Also I would widen the categories of those you might refuse to those who are not desirable to the country i.e. those whom the country thinks would on balance be more of a burden than an asset - however that is defined.
then add in that the UK economic cycle is about 2 years ahead of the mainland Europe one and we would have had two decades of painful adjustment to make
Of course, the current Catalan president is a right wing Catalan supremacist who has shown nothing but contempt for the Spanish speaking poor whose labours made Catalonia wealthy.
Btw, one thing I did not mention in the post but is interesting is how the Republicans are now trying to weaken the Democrats hold on the African-American vote. Trump's pardon last week of the boxer Jack Johnson is but the latest example (short synopsis: Jackson was a Black boxer in the early 20th Century, was framed for a crime under the Mann Act due to his relationships with white women and there have been calls for a pardon fr several decades) with Republicans citing how the AA unemployment rate is the lowest in decades and attempts now being made at federal prison reform.