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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A big question today is how many voters can’t cast their ballots because they don’t have the required ID
Just been to vote. Was informed that two people had already turned up without ID this morning so had been unable to vote. Very worrying and backs up all the evidence that the voter ID pilot in Bromley is plain wrong.
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I don't think there's been many problems so when the whole thing is dropped I won't be concerned, but I don't know how outraged to be either if it continues, if at all.
Remember, just because a rule is possible to comply with doesn't mean it isn't a barrier. If people had to vote within a specific hour, or memorise a unique voter ID, or whatever, that wouldn't be banning them from voting. But clearly a number of voters wouldn't manage to do it, and their voices should be heard too.
If you know someone isn't going to turn out then it would be very easy to get away with it without raising suspicion, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
1. What if the victim unexpected does vote, you'd be caught;
2. What if the polling station staff recognise you aren't the other person (and as they are usually local residents that is far from impossible), you'd be caught;
3. What if someone who knows the victim ever reviews the marked register (we do keep records, and sometime they are shared, or who voted but not for whom), you'd be caught;
4. If you wanted to steal more than a tiny number of votes you'd need several people involved (you can't walk into a polling station twice and give different names), eventually someone will talk and you'd be caught.
We can't 100% rule out a tiny level of undetected personation, but we don't usually clampdown on crime we have no evidence is happening. Especially when we know there will be harmful side-effects of the proposed action.
*(You don't though, they never ask for it)
Given you need ID to buy a drink, I don't think it's unreasonable for it to be needed to vote. Especially when we have lots of cases of electoral fraud over the last few years.
But I did vote in person in the Referendum in 2016, and general elections in 2015 and 2017. I got the train and tube to Ilford North and returned to the Midlands each evening just in time for the Election Night program on each occasion!
I like voting in person. It feels like you really have voted. I don't think voting postally has the same, er, "feel".
Postal voting should be abolished immediately, except for the ill or absent (with holiday makers being entitled to a postal vote, unlike the old days). The benefit in better "engagement" (when actually it's better to let those too idle to waddle to the polling station rule themselves out of the political process) is outweighed x1000 by the obvious opportunity (taken by both parties) to cheat.
a: You don't need ID to buy a drink unless you're 18-21. I haven't been asked for ID in almost a decade.
b: If you forget your ID at a bar you can return the next day and buy a drink. Not so with voting.
Sunil Prasannan, BSc (Hons.), ARCS, PhD
Perhaps not the best analogy to use just because your post office has lax procedures.
If you forget you can return later the same day our polling stations are open for 15 hours which is longer than almost any other nation I can think of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personation
"Personation (rather than impersonation) is a primarily-legal term, meaning 'to assume the identity of another person with intent to deceive'. It is often used for the kind of voter fraud where an individual votes in an election, whilst pretending to be a different elector."
b. If you forget with a vote there's a 15 hour window to vote in. Plus the polling station is invariably local so you can easily return.
Call it same-day registration if you prefer.
But even if everyone did have ID, people will simply forget. And forgetting your ID is a rubbish reason for not being heard in an election. When Canada tried voter ID they found 4% of voters didn't have any of the required IDs, and another 4% of people who turned up at the polling station didn't bring it with them. That's 8% of people who were eligible to vote but failed to comply with the bureaucracy. Given the bureaucracy isn't serving any obvious purpose (i.e. there is no evidence of personation being at all common) that's a price not worth paying.
a: We have a legitimate problem we are trying to stop with alcohol ID (i.e. underage drinking is well evidenced); and
b: The existence of one annoying burden doesn't justify creating more for the hell of it!
(Incidentally, I have seen Challenge 25. My experience was just that they stopped asking much earlier.)
What ID can I bring?
To vote at a polling station in London Borough Bromley on 3 May 2018 you must take either one of the following:
a passport issued by the United Kingdom, a Commonwealth country or a member state of the European Union
a photocard driving licence (including a provisional licence) issued in the United Kingdom or by a Crown Dependency, or by a member State of the European Union
an electoral identity card issued under section 13C (electoral identity card: Northern Ireland) of the Representation of the People Act 1983
a biometric immigration document issued in the United Kingdom in accordance with regulations made under section 5 of the UK Borders Act 2007
an identity card issued in the European Economic Area
an Oyster 60+ London Pass
a Freedom Pass (London)
a PASS scheme card (national proof of age standards scheme)
Or two of the following (one of which must show your registered address):
a valid bank or building society debit card or credit card
a poll card for the poll
a driving licence (including a provisional licence) which is not in the form of a photocard.
a birth certificate
a marriage or civil partnership certificate
an adoption certificate
a firearms certificate granted under the Firearms Act 1968
the record of a decision on bail made in respect of the voter in accordance with section 5(1) of the Bail Act 1976
a bank or building society cheque book
a mortgage statement dated within 3 months of the date of the poll
a bank or building society statement dated within 3 months of the date of the poll
a credit card statement dated within 3 months of the date of the poll
a utility bill dated within 3 months of the date of the poll
a council tax demand letter or statement dated within 12 months of the date of the poll
a Form P45 or Form P60 dated within 12 months of the date of the poll
What if I cannot provide any of the ID listed above?
You can apply for a postal vote or proxy vote or you can apply for a Certificate of Identity.
http://www.bromley.gov.uk/info/200033/elections_and_voting/1177/voter_id_pilot
This is why voting fraud tends not to happen much, even though the security preventing it has a lot of holes.
Ok with you?
I have no idea if these where real or just attention seeking, I have not heard of any body being prosecuted for it. But I think it did bring attention to an issue, and I think some people get very protective about the concept of Democracy, and very angry about the idea of trust being abused.
As always my biggest wish would be to shrink the Size and Scope of government so that voting becomes less important, and people have more freedom to to live their lives as they chooses. however that not going to happen overnight.
Just a thought but how would PBs feel about adopting the system used in some, mostly developing country's, getting all voters to dip a finger in a permanent ink, at the voting station, so that if they try to vote a second time it would be spoted and could be stopped? I cant see that becoming an obstetrical to anybody voting, but would at least reduse the fear or anybody abusing that part of the system. Postal voting is another matter.
When I said to a Spanish friend of mine that I could just turn up to the polling station and tell them my name and address with nothing to prove that I was who I said I was, he was very surprised "no wonder Britain voted to leave!"
In any case - that's not what the government is doing.
Perhaps if you are deemed capable of voting you could just get up to speed with the rules. Is it really such a hardship to provide ID?
It's also a bit patronising as well to suggest poor people or BME groups can't cope with this - as this US video illustrates.
https://youtu.be/rrBxZGWCdgs
I think if the UK introduced it, the first one should be free and valid for 10 years, then the renewals should be as cheap as renewing the driving licence.
The Bromley list folks have quoted looks pretty comprehensive though doubtless someone will find due course to pick a hole in something.
In all likelihood it's postal votes that are going to be more dodgy, but as I said yesterday, hate the idea though I do, a lot of the ID/admin/nationality/voting issues we now have would be solved largely by a national ID card.
People with a pattern of voting will be well equipped with the rules.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/223184/Fraud-allegations-data-report-2016.pdf
Here are some more rather one sided historic votes:
187 : 17900
1,513 : 3
51,773 : 1,039
4,453,912 : 11,929
There are some genuine security trade-offs here but you need a rational policy based on actual risks, not politically-gameable security theatre.
Fairly confident the Tories would not be introducing this, in the face of opposition from other parties, if they thought it was going to reduce their own vote.
I thought Gibraltar in 1967 was pretty close to the record for most one sided. (N Korea et al aside)
https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/992033570205118470
“London boroughs are more similar to districts. They organise social services, bin collections and local parks, while the Greater London Authority (GLA), headed up by the Mayor of London, is responsible for policing, fire, and transport services. The responsibility for housing and road maintenance is shared by the boroughs and the GLA.”
I don’t think the comparison with district councils is accurate. London borough are responsible for education and social services like unitary councils and county councils. Ok the GLA is responsible for policing and has a strategic planning function but housing is predominately a borough function supported by funding from the GLA as London’s version of Homes England.
In Tower Hamlets mayoralty election I...
I...
I...
Gave Labour my second preference.
It took a lot of courage but I managed it.
If it swings Bromley that really will be a shock!!
Congratulations on your superb genes!
Lab take TH but fail elsewhere?
That I think is probably the only route.