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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year to go till Brexit and the latest YouGov tracker has Bri

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  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    malcolmg said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Evershed,

    "Proves it wasn't Novichok - and so not Russia."

    I know you're joking, but recovery is possible unless there's been associated lack of oxygen to vital organs. There are antidotes to the enzyme blockade if given quickly.

    Like a stroke, a full recovery is always possible, but sometimes it's only partial.

    we have had two weeks of bollox stating the opposite
    Yes they now saying it was put on the door .I guess they knew that the postman would not be delivering.
  • malcolmg said:
    Hi Malc - did you meet Theresa in Ayr today with a hug and happy Easter wish

    I did ask much earlier if you were going to !!!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720
    edited March 2018

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,816
    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,317

    Bye bye GKN.

    The Melrose offer is better than the current strategic plan laid out by the board.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    Remain didn't really need to target, given they used taxpayer cash to send expensive campaign literature to every household in the country.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    She's anti-Western governments so anything else can be excused. This is the modern Labour Party's core philosophy now.
  • Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    ITV reporting on labours anti semetic issues saying Corbyn has kept a very low profile today failing to meet builders at a social house building programme and commenting 'make what you will of that'

    Who would have thought that Corbyn is now bunkering down and hiding from the inevitable uncomfortable questions the press will deliver.

    Anti semetic questions are going to be put before any or all labour politicians appearing in the media ad infinitum.

    Unless Corbyn does something directly to address these serious problems he has no hope of gaining power

    I thought he had no hope anyways , with been a spy, venezuela , IRA, CND, anti war, ant trident renewal .Hamas , magic money tree, J, Mac, D Abbott.Blairites against him.Russia.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,428

    Bye bye GKN.


    The Daily Rant will be entertaining in the morning...
  • Yorkcity said:

    ITV reporting on labours anti semetic issues saying Corbyn has kept a very low profile today failing to meet builders at a social house building programme and commenting 'make what you will of that'

    Who would have thought that Corbyn is now bunkering down and hiding from the inevitable uncomfortable questions the press will deliver.

    Anti semetic questions are going to be put before any or all labour politicians appearing in the media ad infinitum.

    Unless Corbyn does something directly to address these serious problems he has no hope of gaining power

    I thought he had no hope anyways , with been a spy, venezuela , IRA, CND, anti war, ant trident renewal .Hamas , magic money tree, J, Mac, D Abbott.Blairites against him.Russia.
    I think this crisis is desperately sad and I just wish labour could act decisively to rid itself of this
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,714

    malcolmg said:
    Hi Malc - did you meet Theresa in Ayr today with a hug and happy Easter wish

    I did ask much earlier if you were going to !!!
    Hello G, was very busy today , quarter end. As I said she was brought in secretly no public sight and back out same way after sitting in cafeteria having tea with a couple of selected patsies. Very poor show.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,723

    From Tim Shipman's book, Cameron's speech, should Remain have won, would have said: "As far as Britain is concerned, the political project for further integration in Europe is over."

    Eurosceptics were on the wrong side.

    John Major also thought he had stopped part of the integration project. Look how wrong he turned out to be and his pathetic moaning letter about it to the Commission President.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    This is Ed’s fault now? If you’re referring to the £3 policy, Corbyn would have won even without those voters. The fault lies with those that nominated him and the other leadership candidates for running dull and uninspiring campaigns.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,028
    Elliot said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    She's anti-Western governments so anything else can be excused. This is the modern Labour Party's core philosophy now.
    Staying on NEC too, which is a far bigger issue.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    Remain ought to have had a pretty good idea of which types of voters were receptive to their arguments, and if they didn't, what were they spending their money on?
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:
    Hi Malc - did you meet Theresa in Ayr today with a hug and happy Easter wish

    I did ask much earlier if you were going to !!!
    Hello G, was very busy today , quarter end. As I said she was brought in secretly no public sight and back out same way after sitting in cafeteria having tea with a couple of selected patsies. Very poor show.
    Go on Malc - push yourself - admit you like her !!!!!
  • Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    This is Ed’s fault now? If you’re referring to the £3 policy, Corbyn would have won even without those voters. The fault lies with those that nominated him and the other leadership candidates for running dull and uninspiring campaigns.
    It is a part of the story but it is also very alarming. We need a good opposition right now and labour are tearing itself apart
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,816

    From Tim Shipman's book, Cameron's speech, should Remain have won, would have said: "As far as Britain is concerned, the political project for further integration in Europe is over."

    Eurosceptics were on the wrong side.

    John Major also thought he had stopped part of the integration project. Look how wrong he turned out to be and his pathetic moaning letter about it to the Commission President.
    John Major just didn't understand the law in that case and you are projecting your own feelings about it onto him.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Elliot said:


    I have an extremely fair liberal friend who likes to troll online racists by telling them their brown eyes or dark hair makes them untermenschen.

    Made me laugh :-)

    Possibly less funny if they take it personally and try seek you out in real life though.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    You can if you canvass everyone (or you can reach them on facebook yourself). And you don't have to reach all of them, just 600,000 of them. If asked to name just one factor which swung the referendum, I would say: Remain laziness.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,028

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    This is Ed’s fault now? If you’re referring to the £3 policy, Corbyn would have won even without those voters. The fault lies with those that nominated him and the other leadership candidates for running dull and uninspiring campaigns.
    The fault lies in who we employ as teachers. Take a look at Corbyn - he's just like what we inflict on our children as teachers. Bitter and twisted.
  • Andrew said:

    Elliot said:


    I have an extremely fair liberal friend who likes to troll online racists by telling them their brown eyes or dark hair makes them untermenschen.

    Made me laugh :-)

    Possibly less funny if they take it personally and try seek you out in real life though.
    I once trolled some far rightists by pointing out that their beloved St George was a Johnny Foreigner from the Middle East who never stepped foot in England.

    They were under the misapprehension that St George was an Englishman.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,816
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    You can if you canvass everyone (or you can reach them on facebook yourself). And you don't have to reach all of them, just 600,000 of them. If asked to name just one factor which swung the referendum, I would say: Remain laziness.
    That's contradictory. Yes, if you knock on every single door, you can reach a lot of people, but you can't deliver that kind of personalised dog whistle unless you know in advance who you are talking to.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    You can if you canvass everyone (or you can reach them on facebook yourself). And you don't have to reach all of them, just 600,000 of them. If asked to name just one factor which swung the referendum, I would say: Remain laziness.
    And Junckers
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Scott_P said:

    Bye bye GKN.

    The vote was 52/48

    Get over it...
    Except if more than 10% of shareholders don't sell their shares to Melrose, they can retain their shares as minority shareholders and the separate stockmarket quote.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Floater said:

    JackW said:

    Mr. W, well, if you're going to resign over one prostitute you might as well enjoy several.

    I bow to your greater and far more personal knowledge on such matters.
    Call yourself a Lib Dem ;-)
    No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,816
    FPT
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Mr. Eagles, Corbyn becoming leader pre-dates the referendum. The softness on anti-Semitism is a feature of Corbyn's leadership (which he now claims he's going to be tough on, so we'll see about that).

    Trying to link it to the leave campaign is not persuasive. Corbyn was loving murals and attending pro-Iran events, marching with Stalin banners and the like long before that. Not to mention his friends from Hamas.

    Mr. P, some questions to MPs (and PMs) are bloody stupid.

    Mr. Divvie, a while ago I saw an edition of Live at the Apollo, with Reginald D. Hunter. Generally, I rather like him. However, it was shortly after Josef Fritzl[sp] hit the news (he was an Austrian who kept his daughter for decades in a secret basement, repeatedly raping her and fathering a child upon her). Hunter made some jokes about that, respecting Fritzl's ability to make a basement and keep it hidden for so long.

    I found the jokes to be in very poor taste. Rape jokes in general are not something I like. But disapproving of comedy is not just cause to try and criminalise comedians. There is an off-switch. I can change the channel. Nobody kidnaps you and forces you to watch a comedy routine you dislike.

    It's a cumulative thing, little by little the decency window moved.

    Do you think Gove and Boris will be able to criticise Corbyn for demonising a religion after campaigning with posters like this.

    image
    The focus here is that Syria and Iraq are current warzones, not that they are Muslim. Otherwise you could point out the EU already borders Muslim Albania.
    So why not focus on warzones like say Ukraine?

    Perhaps you can direct me to Vote Leave's posters about Ukraine?
    Because the war in Ukraine is a small one located in the south east corner, far from Romania's borders. The wars in Syria and Iraq are much larger and were happening on Turkey's border.
    More non-EU immigrants went to Poland last year than to Germany, but Leave.EU don't bang on about it because they are fleeing Ukraine, not Syria.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Perhaps Jezza might pop into a local screening :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43569919
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,723

    From Tim Shipman's book, Cameron's speech, should Remain have won, would have said: "As far as Britain is concerned, the political project for further integration in Europe is over."

    Eurosceptics were on the wrong side.

    John Major also thought he had stopped part of the integration project. Look how wrong he turned out to be and his pathetic moaning letter about it to the Commission President.
    John Major just didn't understand the law in that case and you are projecting your own feelings about it onto him.
    We no. Just read the letter he wrote to them. He was not a happy man at all.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,816

    From Tim Shipman's book, Cameron's speech, should Remain have won, would have said: "As far as Britain is concerned, the political project for further integration in Europe is over."

    Eurosceptics were on the wrong side.

    John Major also thought he had stopped part of the integration project. Look how wrong he turned out to be and his pathetic moaning letter about it to the Commission President.
    John Major just didn't understand the law in that case and you are projecting your own feelings about it onto him.
    We no. Just read the letter he wrote to them. He was not a happy man at all.
    When he wrote that letter it was in the run up to the 1997 General Election and he was behind in the polls by 2 to 1. Of course he wasn't a happy man; he was desperate.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720
    edited March 2018

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    You can if you canvass everyone (or you can reach them on facebook yourself). And you don't have to reach all of them, just 600,000 of them. If asked to name just one factor which swung the referendum, I would say: Remain laziness.
    That's contradictory. Yes, if you knock on every single door, you can reach a lot of people, but you can't deliver that kind of personalised dog whistle unless you know in advance who you are talking to.
    So, why were Remain less clued up about campaigning than Leave?

    My impression (as a very minor cog) was that Vote Leave and Leave UK were incompetent campaigners.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    I'm actually taken aback. This is getting close to the "if you want an N for your neighbour vote Labour".
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,729

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    This is Ed’s fault now? If you’re referring to the £3 policy, Corbyn would have won even without those voters. The fault lies with those that nominated him and the other leadership candidates for running dull and uninspiring campaigns.
    Surely it was also under Ed's leadership that the Electoral College (1/3 MPs, 1/3 members, 1/3 unions) system of electing the leader was ditched - to be replaced by one person one vote (of members + £3 supporters + affiliated members through unions).

    If the Electoral College had been retained then Corbyn would certainly have lost to Burnham (or Cooper) in the final round:

    The 33% for MPs would have split approx 30 Burnham : 3 Corbyn - meaning Burnham would only have needed a total of 20 (out of 67) in the other two sections.
  • notme said:

    I'm actually taken aback. This is getting close to the "if you want an N for your neighbour vote Labour".
    I had to check to make sure it wasn't a spoof, fake news, or a false flag operation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,857
    geoffw said:

    Brexit is going to happen on Sir John Major’s birthday.

    It's also going to be Lord Tebbit's birthday. Who will have the happier birthday?
    Which party will have hookers and cocaine?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    notme said:

    I'm actually taken aback. This is getting close to the "if you want an N for your neighbour vote Labour".
    I had to check to make sure it wasn't a spoof, fake news, or a false flag operation.
    Are you sure it isn’t an secret plan by Jews to make it look like there is an issue with antisemitism in order to get sympathy and cover for the practices of the Israeli government...that is how the latest conspiracy theory goes right?
  • notme said:

    I'm actually taken aback. This is getting close to the "if you want an N for your neighbour vote Labour".
    I had to check to make sure it wasn't a spoof, fake news, or a false flag operation.
    Are you sure it isn’t an secret plan by Jews to make it look like there is an issue with antisemitism in order to get sympathy and cover for the practices of the Israeli government...that is how the latest conspiracy theory goes right?
    We live in a world where I'm considered a Zionist.

    The power and influence and Jews knows no bounds.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leave.EU are an absolute embarrassment. That poster is disgusting.

    But is it actually untrue?

    the transit of whale meat through EU ports is perfectly legal as long as the relevant paperwork is in order and the meat at no point actually enters the EU.

    http://uk.whales.org/blog/2017/07/eu-must-shut-its-ports-to-whale-meat-0
    Surely this is true of basically all ports worldwide: i.e., so long as the goods are legal in their origin and destination, and do not enter the country in question while in port, then they are legal under the 1923 Convention on the International Regime of Marine Ports.
    So Vote Leave lied that this is down to "EU law", and they did it in the shadows, whispering in the ears of people they knew would be susceptible.
    I doubt if whale meat swung the result.
    600,000 votes is all it took. Whale meat can be added to other under the radar ads they put out, such as:

    "Stop bailing Greece out" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/598488443661417

    "Save our maternity units" - https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/594067710770157
    There were plenty of falsehoods on both sides of the referendum (3 million job losses, EU army a fantasy, immediate recession etc), which I believe you seem to have accepted. Is your argument now that Leave's lies were worse because Remain did a poor job of contesting them?
    No, I don't accept there is any equivalence, and anyway, how could Remain contest them when Vote Leave were not doing it publicly but instead targeting people directly?
    Maybe Remain should have targeted people directly. They weren't short of money. Or maybe they could have done some canvassing, which is the traditional form of direct targeting.
    You canvas by area. You can't canvas all the expectant mothers or all the animal rights activists in the same way you can reach them on Facebook.
    Remain ought to have had a pretty good idea of which types of voters were receptive to their arguments, and if they didn't, what were they spending their money on?
    Their strategy was based on the believe they already had it 60/40 in the bag, and that fear would maximise turnout.

    When it all fell apart in the final month they simply didn’t know how to respond, and had too many parts involved to make quick decisions.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2018
    MikeL said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    This is Ed’s fault now? If you’re referring to the £3 policy, Corbyn would have won even without those voters. The fault lies with those that nominated him and the other leadership candidates for running dull and uninspiring campaigns.
    Surely it was also under Ed's leadership that the Electoral College (1/3 MPs, 1/3 members, 1/3 unions) system of electing the leader was ditched - to be replaced by one person one vote (of members + £3 supporters + affiliated members through unions).

    If the Electoral College had been retained then Corbyn would certainly have lost to Burnham (or Cooper) in the final round:

    The 33% for MPs would have split approx 30 Burnham : 3 Corbyn - meaning Burnham would only have needed a total of 20 (out of 67) in the other two sections.
    And it was Labour MPs who decided to nominate Corbyn in the first place. I distinctly remember Labour’s opponents mocking the previous system during 2010-15, mainly because - the argument IIRC went - that the margin between Ed and David Miliband was so small that it was people having multiple votes that contributed to Ed winning over him. It looks like the system is ‘always’ wrong when it doesn’t deliver the desired moderate a win.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    notme said:

    I'm actually taken aback. This is getting close to the "if you want an N for your neighbour vote Labour".
    I had to check to make sure it wasn't a spoof, fake news, or a false flag operation.
    Are you sure it isn’t an secret plan by Jews to make it look like there is an issue with antisemitism in order to get sympathy and cover for the practices of the Israeli government...that is how the latest conspiracy theory goes right?
    We live in a world where I'm considered a Zionist.

    The power and influence and Jews knows no bounds.
    These Jews are bloody cunning. They control all the media and money.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    I am sure all pbers would like to know there is a new westworld trailer...

    https://youtu.be/sjVqDg32_8s
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    I am angry that a major party in the UK can act in such a way

    Beyond angry actually, furious.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    I am angry that a major party in the UK can act in such a way

    Beyond angry actually, furious.
    Yet the country just sat through a referendum campaign that was won with xenophobic lies and you are just fine about that.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Omnium said:

    Elliot said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    She's anti-Western governments so anything else can be excused. This is the modern Labour Party's core philosophy now.
    Staying on NEC too, which is a far bigger issue.
    Worse than that

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    A piss take really by Labour

    Pure smoke and mirrors.

    That article says John Woodcock considering quitting

    Don't consider - get out of that cess pit.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    I assume you disagree with the following:

    This kind of message therefore turns off voters nationally, from the cities to the suburbs.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    tlg86 said:

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    I assume you disagree with the following:

    This kind of message therefore turns off voters nationally, from the cities to the suburbs.
    The message works only too well with some voters. That's why there's a renewed interest on all sides in using it.

    The big takeaway from the EU referendum is that stirring up xenophobia works. All the parties are experimenting with how best to use that information.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    And, again, there is also the Conservatives' mayoral campaign in 2016, which was entirely "Sadiq Khan has a brown face, therefore you can't trust him" -- something which, again, there has not even been any apology from for the Tories for, not even to the extent of Corbyn's mealy-mouthed apology.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    That was actually used as a defence by a waiter when he was sacked for being rude :-)
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited March 2018

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    I had the misfortune to sit through a talk by this lady at a Party Conference. She clearly thinks she will climb the ladder of the party by attacking it. I struggle to see her winning a seat nomination, however well it goes down in certain parts.

    If you knew anything about London beyond your enclave, you would know that some of the outer boroughs have a very different feel; less traffic, more open space, smaller developments. As a resident of one, I absolutely do not want mine to become as overcrowded and frenetic as some of the inner boroughs, with overly dense housing and a lack of greenery. It has nothing to do with race; the immigrants who move to these boroughs value the same things as the residents already in place.

    Only racists see race in everything.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Danny565 said:

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    And, again, there is also the Conservatives' mayoral campaign in 2016, which was entirely "Sadiq Khan has a brown face, therefore you can't trust him" -- something which, again, there has not even been any apology from for the Tories for, not even to the extent of Corbyn's mealy-mouthed apology.
    I am pretty certain that if you came up with evidence of anyone saying that, an apology would be forthcoming. Just a link would be fine.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,258

    tlg86 said:

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    I assume you disagree with the following:

    This kind of message therefore turns off voters nationally, from the cities to the suburbs.
    The message works only too well with some voters. That's why there's a renewed interest on all sides in using it.

    The big takeaway from the EU referendum is that stirring up xenophobia works. All the parties are experimenting with how best to use that information.
    I'm sure if isam was allowed on here he'd be telling us that such a message would very much get a hearing in a place like Havering.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,816
    RoyalBlue said:

    I had the misfortune to sit through a talk by this lady at a Party Conference. She clearly thinks she will climb the ladder of the party by attacking it.

    So you were there for the nasty party speech? :)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Brexit is going to happen on Sir John Major’s birthday.

    It's also going to be Lord Tebbit's birthday. Who will have the happier birthday?
    Which party will have hookers and cocaine?
    The one at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue .....
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    I had the misfortune to sit through a talk by this lady at a Party Conference. She clearly thinks she will climb the ladder of the party by attacking it.

    So you were there for the nasty party speech? :)
    I can’t hear you *whistles with fingers in ears* :tongue:
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    RoyalBlue said:

    I had the misfortune to sit through a talk by this lady at a Party Conference. She clearly thinks she will climb the ladder of the party by attacking it.

    So you were there for the nasty party speech? :)
    LOL!
  • NEW THREAD

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    I am angry that a major party in the UK can act in such a way

    Beyond angry actually, furious.
    Yet the country just sat through a referendum campaign that was won with xenophobic lies and you are just fine about that.
    Really - can you point to any posts at all where I expressed a view that I was happy with either of those posters you took offence at?

    You sir are the man blinded by hatred - not me.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    tlg86 said:

    Amidst all the Leavers taking umbrage at the suggestion that the Brexit result enabled xenophobia and racism to gain a new purchase in British politics, I must have missed the detailed dissection of this example:

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/03/binita-mehta-parmar-the-divisive-and-intolerant-messages-used-on-a-tory-leaflet-in-havering-harm-our-society-and-our-party.html

    I assume you disagree with the following:

    This kind of message therefore turns off voters nationally, from the cities to the suburbs.
    The message works only too well with some voters. That's why there's a renewed interest on all sides in using it.

    The big takeaway from the EU referendum is that stirring up xenophobia works. All the parties are experimenting with how best to use that information.
    I think Anti semitism on the left pre dates the referendum - but the referendum result colours nigh on every post you make now.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    I am angry that a major party in the UK can act in such a way

    Beyond angry actually, furious.
    Yet the country just sat through a referendum campaign that was won with xenophobic lies and you are just fine about that.
    Really - can you point to any posts at all where I expressed a view that I was happy with either of those posters you took offence at?

    You sir are the man blinded by hatred - not me.
    You have spent much of the day live-blogging your disagreement with my disapproval of the whole way Leave fought the referendum campaign and those who overlooked that in order to support the Leave campaigns. If you were beyond angry, furious about it too, you have been remarkably restrained in not mentioning the fact.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    I am angry that a major party in the UK can act in such a way

    Beyond angry actually, furious.
    Yet the country just sat through a referendum campaign that was won with xenophobic lies and you are just fine about that.
    Really - can you point to any posts at all where I expressed a view that I was happy with either of those posters you took offence at?

    You sir are the man blinded by hatred - not me.
    You have spent much of the day live-blogging your disagreement with my disapproval of the whole way Leave fought the referendum campaign and those who overlooked that in order to support the Leave campaigns. If you were beyond angry, furious about it too, you have been remarkably restrained in not mentioning the fact.
    I think that you have gone off the deep end -- I also think you are a class A hypocrite

    Neither point says anything about my agreement or otherwise with anything else

    As I say - you are blinded by hatred and not seeing clearly

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Good to see labour taking this problem seriously....

    Disgraced Labour disciplinary chief will STAY on panel judging anti-Semitism cases despite being ‘sacked’ for sending an email defending a Holocaust denier

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5557609/Corbyn-faces-questions-took-FOUR-DAYS-sack-Christine-Shawcroft.html

    That is a fucking joke
    I think it is very serious and leaves me with despair - and we are seeing now how important Kinnock was in expelling Militant but only for dosy Ed Miliband to open the door to the decay at the heart of Corbyn's office and leadership we are now witnessing
    I am angry that a major party in the UK can act in such a way

    Beyond angry actually, furious.
    Yet the country just sat through a referendum campaign that was won with xenophobic lies and you are just fine about that.
    Really - can you point to any posts at all where I expressed a view that I was happy with either of those posters you took offence at?

    You sir are the man blinded by hatred - not me.
    You have spent much of the day live-blogging your disagreement with my disapproval of the whole way Leave fought the referendum campaign and those who overlooked that in order to support the Leave campaigns. If you were beyond angry, furious about it too, you have been remarkably restrained in not mentioning the fact.
    I think that you have gone off the deep end -- I also think you are a class A hypocrite

    Neither point says anything about my agreement or otherwise with anything else

    As I say - you are blinded by hatred and not seeing clearly

    You’re beyond furious about Labour but somehow unable to comment on Leave xenophobia. I’m not into grading hypocrites, but if I were...
This discussion has been closed.