Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
I think past experience is that conquering Ireland is like conquering Afghanistan, more of a long haul than a few days.
It is quite clear that the governments Brexit strategy (!!) requires a hard border as we will not be in CU or SM. Even an FTA requires a degreedof infrastructure on the border. The DUP just need to suck it up. In addition it probably needs the GFA to go back to the drawing board, Stormont ain't working even apart from Brexit.
If we have a FTA, which the Irish seem to want too, then all that needs to be regulated is third party imports. Given the practicalities of the Island of Ireland that really is not going to be a major issue since such items will either be arriving at a very limited number of ports or airfields. Stuff actually made in Eire or NI will have a consistent level of import within it so once that has been agreed it is just a matter of paying anything due. It should require no more than random (or intelligence led, if they want to be posh about it) checks on the border from time to time.
If we don't have a FTA and there are mutual tariffs to deal with along with no agreement on regulatory compliance things will get much more complicated but it is still far more of a problem for the EU (who allegedly are concerned about protecting the integrity of the Single Market or some such rubbish) than it is for us. If we take the default position that goods coming from the EU meet our standards, for example, we won't need to check them. If they are obsessed with us importing chlorinated chicken and then exporting it to Eire that is their concern.
Watching that odious clown Boris shuffle uncomfortably in his seat as the once-useless Corbyn gently teased the insanity of his position was deeply embarrassing. How did this birdbrain become Foreign Secretary? May, who appointed him, should hang her head in shame. This country is a laughing stock – thanks to the witless imbeciles on the Tory front bench.
Boris is the Trump or Berlusconi of Britain, given 1 is POTUS and the other's coalition is set to be the biggest block in the Italian Parliament on Sunday not such a bad place to be
Johnson's latest incendiary interventions regarding the NI border imply he is totally unsuitable to become PM.I am not sure whether his responses are out of naivety or cynicism. If he does not believe the the ramifications of his statements are anything short of potentially downright dangerous were they come to pass he has no business being FS either!
In the view of an ardent Remainer who he does not need to win a general election
Someone who has the courage of his convictions, unlike you neobrexiteers who are led by the witless May into whichever wilderness CCHQ orders you to march.
Watching that odious clown Boris shuffle uncomfortably in his seat as the once-useless Corbyn gently teased the insanity of his position was deeply embarrassing. How did this birdbrain become Foreign Secretary? May, who appointed him, should hang her head in shame. This country is a laughing stock – thanks to the witless imbeciles on the Tory front bench.
Boris is the Trump or Berlusconi of Britain, given 1 is POTUS and the other's coalition is set to be the biggest block in the Italian Parliament on Sunday not such a bad place to be
Johnson's latest incendiary interventions regarding the NI border imply he is totally unsuitable to become PM.I am not sure whether his responses are out of naivety or cynicism. If he does not believe the the ramifications of his statements are anything short of potentially downright dangerous were they come to pass he has no business being FS either!
In the view of an ardent Remainer who he does not need to win a general election
You have hit the nail on the head. Johnson has conveniently moved from Europhile to mild Eurosceptic to cliff-edge Brexiteer in 2 years. Why? To become Conservative Party leader and win a GE. Who cares about the collateral damage to achieve this end?
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
I’m looking to the future, not the past.
It will be almost 40 years before all the over 45s have disappeared from the electorate
Won there be new over 45s?
I think the evidence is that cultural attitudes do not change with age the way that political allegiences have in the past.
Time will tell of course.
I don't know, it seems as though the attitudes of all age groups change in the same way:
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
Perhaps after we vote twice, the EU will become as popular here as it is in Ireland.
Watching that odious clown Boris shuffle uncomfortably in his seat as the once-useless Corbyn gently teased the insanity of his position was deeply embarrassing. How did this birdbrain become Foreign Secretary? May, who appointed him, should hang her head in shame. This country is a laughing stock – thanks to the witless imbeciles on the Tory front bench.
Boris is the Trump or Berlusconi of Britain, given 1 is POTUS and the other's coalition is set to be the biggest block in the Italian Parliament on Sunday not such a bad place to be
Johnson's latest incendiary interventions regarding the NI border imply he is totally unsuitable to become PM.I am not sure whether his responses are out of naivety or cynicism. If he does not believe the the ramifications of his statements are anything short of potentially downright dangerous were they come to pass he has no business being FS either!
In the view of an ardent Remainer who he does not need to win a general election
You have hit the nail on the head. Johnson has conveniently moved from Europhile to mild Eurosceptic to cliff-edge Brexiteer in 2 years. Why? To become Conservative Party leader and win a GE. Who cares about the collateral damage to achieve this end?
To most Brexiteers reducing immigration and regaining sovereignty is not collateral damage
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
The creation of the "Irish Border Question" seems to have been entirely created for the purpose of frustrating Brexit negotiations, and hence Brexit itself.
Yes, partition was done with the sole purpose of frustrating Brexit...
It harks back to the potato famine of 1845. They say Phytophthora infestans was introduced into the ecosystem by visionary hardcore Remainers back in the day to stir up nationalist sympathies.
What was the Member for Rushcliffe doing at the time? We need to be told.
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
Perhaps after we vote twice, the EU will become as popular here as it is in Ireland.
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
If there was a second referendum forced after a crisis, especially one of Pacific Islander Remainer/EU making, I suspect it would be 60/40 to Leave....
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
If there was a second referendum forced after a crisis, especially one of Pacific Islander Remainer/EU making, I suspect it would be 60/40 to Leave....
20 months ago was the time to make that call. But you lost the argument and you lost the vote back then, Mr. Major. Blame the shit campaign your side ran.
While you're are at it, do you want to re-run the 1997 election? Convince us now of what a shit that Tony Blair is going to turn out to be?
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
Your last point is a pile of horseshit and you know it. There was polling highlighted on this site not that long ago showing that more than 30% of voters would prefer joining the Euro to Brexit. Still a minority yes, but a significant minority which may well grow if Brexit turns into a complete shambles which begins to seriously impact day to day life. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 50% of people would favour swiftly rejoining in such a scenario.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
The creation of the "Irish Border Question" seems to have been entirely created for the purpose of frustrating Brexit negotiations, and hence Brexit itself.
Yes, partition was done with the sole purpose of frustrating Brexit...
It harks back to the potato famine of 1845. They say Phytophthora infestans was introduced into the ecosystem by visionary hardcore Remainers back in the day to stir up nationalist sympathies.
What was the Member for Rushcliffe doing at the time? We need to be told.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
The creation of the "Irish Border Question" seems to have been entirely created for the purpose of frustrating Brexit negotiations, and hence Brexit itself.
Yes, partition was done with the sole purpose of frustrating Brexit...
It harks back to the potato famine of 1845. They say Phytophthora infestans was introduced into the ecosystem by visionary hardcore Remainers back in the day to stir up nationalist sympathies.
What was the Member for Rushcliffe doing at the time? We need to be told.
Spotted in the Wicklow Mountains armed with test tubes.
I see the same old remainer grandees still continue to make the same mistakes they did in the referendum itself.
There's a case for what Major is trying to say. But for remain to ever gain any traction they need different people fronting their attempted pincer movement.
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
If there was a second referendum forced after a crisis, especially one of Pacific Islander Remainer/EU making, I suspect it would be 60/40 to Leave....
What you suspect is immaterial.
Au contraire.
It is a necessary reminder of the golden rule of Brexit: that Remainers' glee is inversely proportional to their ability to influence events
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
I think the EU position on the Irish border, unlike ours, is crystal clear and logical. (a) They need to control what happens on their territory. (b) They are committed by treaty to not operating the Irish border. Logically his means their control needs to extend past that border. Of course that means controlling territory that is not theirs. The UK understandably objects to that. The UK position on the Irish border is that it commits it to be open, it will control it and in any case it doesn't matter whether it's open or not. The only way these contradictions will be resolved is if the UK commits to controlling Northern Ireland on a identical basis to the EU. So far it has refused to do so.
The ball is in our court. We can continue to reject common regulation with the EU for Northern Ireland and take our chance on either the EU folding or doing without a transition. I don't rate that chance particularly highly. The government thought they could get away with making casual commitments that they could quietly forget about. That won't work.
Watching that odious clown Boris shuffle uncomfortably in his seat as the once-useless Corbyn gently teased the insanity of his position was deeply embarrassing. How did this birdbrain become Foreign Secretary? May, who appointed him, should hang her head in shame. This country is a laughing stock – thanks to the witless imbeciles on the Tory front bench.
Boris is the Trump or Berlusconi of Britain, given 1 is POTUS and the other's coalition is set to be the biggest block in the Italian Parliament on Sunday not such a bad place to be
You actually want the UK to be led by a Berlusconi or a Trump? The Conservative party has gone mad, as John Major intimated in his excellent speech today.
You know perfectly well what I am alluding to! Johnson's disregard for the GFA could return us to what went on before. Do we really want that in order to ensure PM Boris?
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
Your last point is a pile of horseshit and you know it. There was polling highlighted on this site not that long ago showing that more than 30% of voters would prefer joining the Euro to Brexit. Still a minority yes, but a significant minority which may well grow if Brexit turns into a complete shambles which begins to seriously impact day to day life. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 50% of people would favour swiftly rejoining in such a scenario.
If the result was 70/30, and we assumed a UNS, 89% of constituencies would have voted leave. I think you just made HYUFD's point.
Watching that odious clown Boris shuffle uncomfortably in his seat as the once-useless Corbyn gently teased the insanity of his position was deeply embarrassing. How did this birdbrain become Foreign Secretary? May, who appointed him, should hang her head in shame. This country is a laughing stock – thanks to the witless imbeciles on the Tory front bench.
Boris is the Trump or Berlusconi of Britain, given 1 is POTUS and the other's coalition is set to be the biggest block in the Italian Parliament on Sunday not such a bad place to be
You actually want the UK to be lead by a Berlusconi or a Trump? The Conservative party has gone mad, as John Major intimated in his excellent speech today.
Reading Major's speech, and the Twitter feed of such as Anna Soubry, it strikes me that - however numerous her failings - May is the only thing holding the Conservatives together. When she goes, the party splits.
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
If there was a second referendum forced after a crisis, especially one of Pacific Islander Remainer/EU making, I suspect it would be 60/40 to Leave....
What you suspect is immaterial.
Au contraire.
It is a necessary reminder of the golden rule of Brexit: that Remainers' glee is inversely proportional to their ability to influence events
What glee would this be then? I am utterly miserable.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
Your last point is a pile of horseshit and you know it. There was polling highlighted on this site not that long ago showing that more than 30% of voters would prefer joining the Euro to Brexit. Still a minority yes, but a significant minority which may well grow if Brexit turns into a complete shambles which begins to seriously impact day to day life. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 50% of people would favour swiftly rejoining in such a scenario.
Given 48% voted Remain and Remain only won 1/3 of constituencies it was not horseshit.
If the Euro ever came on the cards we could firmly rule out ever rejoining
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
The creation of the "Irish Border Question" seems to have been entirely created for the purpose of frustrating Brexit negotiations, and hence Brexit itself.
Yes, partition was done with the sole purpose of frustrating Brexit...
It harks back to the potato famine of 1845. They say Phytophthora infestans was introduced into the ecosystem by visionary hardcore Remainers back in the day to stir up nationalist sympathies.
What was the Member for Rushcliffe doing at the time? We need to be told.
Spotted in the Wicklow Mountains armed with test tubes.
Reading Major's speech, and the Twitter feed of such as Anna Soubry, it strikes me that - however numerous her failings - May is the only thing holding the Conservatives together. When she goes, the party splits.
The splits have always been there, the shoe is now just on the other foot, as it were.
Leavers mobilising for a Two Minutes Hate is always a wondrous sight to behold, like the murmuration of starlings or the migrations of wildebeest across the savannah.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
Leavers mobilising for a Two Minutes Hate is always a wondrous sight to behold, like the murmuration of starlings or the migrations of wildebeest across the savannah.
... and keep putting the issue back to the people until they get it right.
Wouldn't it be awful no longer to be able to sneer at other countries for "being made to vote twice"?
Yes it would be. One of the reasons the EU cheesed so many Brits off is precisely because they kept having a tin ear when people said "no". Look at the Dutch and the French on the Constitution. Any vaguely self aware democratic organisation would've taken genuine stock, and come back with something looser and less grandiose, not just effectively rub the bloody title out and replace it with "Lisbon Treaty", and say "hey presto" no need for a vote then.
If there was a second referendum forced after a crisis, especially one of Pacific Islander Remainer/EU making, I suspect it would be 60/40 to Leave....
What you suspect is immaterial.
Au contraire.
It is a necessary reminder of the golden rule of Brexit: that Remainers' glee is inversely proportional to their ability to influence events
What glee would this be then? I am utterly miserable.
The Remainers think they are on to something; though most informed spectators suspect that the Govt will win the Customs Union vote. A significant proportion of our opinion makers are seemingly willing to swallow Brussels guff at every opportunity. And bookies come out with hilariously poor value bets like 3-1 that May won't last another 32 days in office (bearing in mind the CU vote wont be before then, anyway) to tempt the wishful thinking thwarters.
Yup, Remainer glee - just like over Miller, Chapman and Obama's 'back of the queue'
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
I am trembling already.... My lord, is there no end to these delusions?
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
I’m looking to the future, not the past.
Our political views are often different, but I hope I am as forward-looking and considerate of the future for the younger generations as you are when I am 80.
Reading Major's speech, and the Twitter feed of such as Anna Soubry, it strikes me that - however numerous her failings - May is the only thing holding the Conservatives together. When she goes, the party splits.
The splits have always been there, the shoe is now just on the other foot, as it were.
They have. But generally the Conservatives have had consensual leaders who have managed to paper over the splits. (Thatcher is the only significant counter-example; she and her acolytes were astonishingly good at party management, but even then there were enough high-profile flounces.)
There is no sign of a consensual leader in the wings. Right now, May is the best they've got. Once she's gone, the already fragile consensus within the party breaks down.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
You know perfectly well what I am alluding to! Johnson's disregard for the GFA could return us to what went on before. Do we really want that in order to ensure PM Boris?
Given the DUP and SF have refused to share power for a year they are doing that for themselves Brexit or no Brexit
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
Shark jump.
I think you'll find it's the Brexiteers accusing Ireland of annexing part of the UK.
Reading Major's speech, and the Twitter feed of such as Anna Soubry, it strikes me that - however numerous her failings - May is the only thing holding the Conservatives together. When she goes, the party splits.
This is one of the reasons why predictions of her demise are exaggerated.
I still wonder if she stays long after next March, personally.
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
Your last point is a pile of horseshit and you know it. There was polling highlighted on this site not that long ago showing that more than 30% of voters would prefer joining the Euro to Brexit. Still a minority yes, but a significant minority which may well grow if Brexit turns into a complete shambles which begins to seriously impact day to day life. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 50% of people would favour swiftly rejoining in such a scenario.
If the result was 70/30, and we assumed a UNS, 89% of constituencies would have voted leave. I think you just made HYUFD's point.
Exactly, Remainers piling up votes in inner city seats does not help them in marginals
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
Leavers mobilising for a Two Minutes Hate is always a wondrous sight to behold, like the murmuration of starlings or the migrations of wildebeest across the savannah.
Collective noun for a group of Remainers - a superfluity.
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
Your last point is a pile of horseshit and you know it. There was polling highlighted on this site not that long ago showing that more than 30% of voters would prefer joining the Euro to Brexit. Still a minority yes, but a significant minority which may well grow if Brexit turns into a complete shambles which begins to seriously impact day to day life. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 50% of people would favour swiftly rejoining in such a scenario.
Given 48% voted Remain and Remain only won 1/3 of constituencies it was not horseshit.
If the Euro ever came on the cards we could firmly rule out ever rejoining
Lets have first past the post by constituency for the next Brexit referendum.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
Leave to what? I think that's Sir John's point. We are certainly not leaving to what was promised by those promoting Leave.
Are we not? The current plan involves the ending freedom of movement, leaving the single market and no longer paying the EU however many million a week.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
Leave to what? I think that's Sir John's point. We are certainly not leaving to what was promised by those promoting Leave.
Are we not? The current plan involves the ending freedom of movement, leaving the single market and no longer paying the EU however many million a week.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
Who is our Churchill today? Who is our Wellington today?
What a collossal cheek by the Tories biggest general election loser.
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
Who is our Churchill today? Who is our Wellington today?
Boris and Rees Mogg of course! With maybe May as Elizabeth 1st
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
I'm not in favour of a second referendum because there is no particular evidence that the unfolding events have significantly influenced the public. It's been a shitshow but it seems that most voters had priced that in before their vote.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
I'm not in favour of a second referendum because there is no particular evidence that the unfolding events have significantly influenced the public. It's been a shitshow but it seems that most voters had priced that in before their vote.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
No one has any idea what will happen when we leave. According to the remain side we should be in a deep recession now. It was the terrible campaign of potential armaggedon by the remain side which led to leave winning. Lies were equal on both sides. Forecasts are always wrong. The country voted leave, thats it. Churchill won the war then lost the election. Democracy can be mad sometimes but it must be obeyed.
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
Your last point is a pile of horseshit and you know it. There was polling highlighted on this site not that long ago showing that more than 30% of voters would prefer joining the Euro to Brexit. Still a minority yes, but a significant minority which may well grow if Brexit turns into a complete shambles which begins to seriously impact day to day life. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 50% of people would favour swiftly rejoining in such a scenario.
Given 48% voted Remain and Remain only won 1/3 of constituencies it was not horseshit.
If the Euro ever came on the cards we could firmly rule out ever rejoining
Lets have first past the post by constituency for the next Brexit referendum.
It would be a 1983 or 1997 style landslide for Leave yes
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
If we have a second referendum I would like two options (which I think are the only viable ones) with a brief indication of key points, warts and all. For example
Do you think UK should:
i) Join EU fully, Schengen, Euro, Ever closer union, FOM ii) Leave EU completely, SM, CU, no FOM, own Trade Agreements
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
Who is our Churchill today? Who is our Wellington today?
The Gallipolli disaster was Churchill's baby.
The Duke of Wellington opposed giving the People the vote and a say in our national affairs. Today's Duke of Wellington was every Remoaner.
What a collossal cheek by the Tories biggest general election loser.
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
Hold on, so no to Jezza, no to Blair...who would you have lead the Labour Party?
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
Leave to what? I think that's Sir John's point. We are certainly not leaving to what was promised by those promoting Leave.
Are we not? The current plan involves the ending freedom of movement, leaving the single market and no longer paying the EU however many million a week.
That's not a plan, Rob.
I think it's fair to say the government are planning to leave the Single Market and to end EU budget contributions (for the most part).
Reading Major's speech, and the Twitter feed of such as Anna Soubry, it strikes me that - however numerous her failings - May is the only thing holding the Conservatives together. When she goes, the party splits.
The splits have always been there, the shoe is now just on the other foot, as it were.
They have. But generally the Conservatives have had consensual leaders who have managed to paper over the splits. (Thatcher is the only significant counter-example; she and her acolytes were astonishingly good at party management, but even then there were enough high-profile flounces.)
There is no sign of a consensual leader in the wings. Right now, May is the best they've got. Once she's gone, the already fragile consensus within the party breaks down.
Leavers mobilising for a Two Minutes Hate is always a wondrous sight to behold, like the murmuration of starlings or the migrations of wildebeest across the savannah.
Yes, the PB League of Empire Loyalists are out in force today:
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
No one has any idea what will happen when we leave. According to the remain side we should be in a deep recession now. It was the terrible campaign of potential armaggedon by the remain side which led to leave winning. Lies were equal on both sides. Forecasts are always wrong. The country voted leave, thats it. Churchill won the war then lost the election. Democracy can be mad sometimes but it must be obeyed.
The most partisan elements on each side have always wildly overstated their case.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
I'm not in favour of a second referendum because there is no particular evidence that the unfolding events have significantly influenced the public. It's been a shitshow but it seems that most voters had priced that in before their vote.
Because you would lose it.
No, I've given my reason. I would support a second (strictly speaking, third) referendum if it looked as though the public had substantially changed its mind. There is no evidence of this.
A fresh referendum at present might very well produce a 52:48 Remain outcome. That would not lead to a more united country.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
No one has any idea what will happen when we leave. According to the remain side we should be in a deep recession now. It was the terrible campaign of potential armaggedon by the remain side which led to leave winning. Lies were equal on both sides. Forecasts are always wrong. The country voted leave, thats it. Churchill won the war then lost the election. Democracy can be mad sometimes but it must be obeyed.
I agree with you on the campaign. Unicorn bullsh*t beat Terror bullsh*t. Were £350m a week for the NHS to be generated from leaving the EU, I would agree with you that we must follow through. That is what the vote was won on, and the standard the outcome should be held to. Otherwise we risk acting as blindly as the Rees-Mogg crew who aren't interested in any barriers, pain or loss on the way to the true goal. And I still think we are better than that as a country.
philipH - no way to such a polarising 2nd ref. All that would do would be to antagonise the country at a time when all efforts should be going into healing it. Not for me thanks!
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
No one has any idea what will happen when we leave. According to the remain side we should be in a deep recession now. It was the terrible campaign of potential armaggedon by the remain side which led to leave winning. Lies were equal on both sides. Forecasts are always wrong. The country voted leave, thats it. Churchill won the war then lost the election. Democracy can be mad sometimes but it must be obeyed.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
Who is our Churchill today? Who is our Wellington today?
I think Captain Mainwaring would probably be enough to handle Eire.
Surely the EU can only request that EU states reciprocate. Residency rights of 3rd party states are a national competence, not an EU one. We surely would not want the EU to trample over other countries sovereignty, would we?
Surely the EU can only request that EU states reciprocate. Residency rights of 3rd party states are a national competence, not an EU one. We surely would not want the EU to trample over other countries sovereignty, would we?
Plans to shaft Northern Ireland by Boris does make that DUP bet look interesting.
Boris' new support for a limited hard border between NI and the Republic would be fine by the DUP
The shift in the brexiteer/neobrexiteer position over the past 18 months is illustrative of their complete lack of pragmatism, wit and imagination.
Only a fool would leave the single market We will leave the single market Only a fool would risk the peace process by establishing a hard Irish border We will establish a 'limited' hard Irish border
Next up: we will establish a hard Irish border and crash out on WTO terms.
Anything – anything – to preserve PURITY!!!
Well given the EU is making it almost impossible to do anything else and deliver full Brexit that may well end up the case
Just maybe we WILL crash out, and the resulting economic chaos is so bad that the Tories struggle to hold Maidenhead and Witham and we crawl back into the EU. And into the Euro and Schengen. Hope it’s nowhere near as bad as that but the incompetence currently being displayed by the Government and to a lesser extent the Opposition suggests the possibility.
Most Leave voters did so to end free movement and regain sovereignty, exactly what the EU is frustrating the government from doing and of course 2/3 of constituencies voted Leave.
Had the Euro and Schengen been on the cards it would have been 90% of constituencies voting Leave
I’m looking to the future, not the past.
It will be almost 40 years before all the over 45s have disappeared from the electorate
Won there be new over 45s?
I think the evidence is that cultural attitudes do not change with age the way that political allegiences have in the past.
Time will tell of course.
Peoples' attitudes towards sexual morality don't seem to change as they get older. OTOH, peoples' attitudes towards both the EU and immigration do seem to.
In 1975, 61% of 18-29 year olds backed Remain. 41 years on, about 36% of the same voters, now aged 59-70, did so.
Maybe we should just invade and conquer Eire. That would solve the EU's apparent difficulties and even with our much diminished forces probably wouldn't take more than a few days.
Or maybe we can finally agree that trying to resolve the status of the Irish border separately from our relationship with the EU generally is simply nuts and that the EU position is completely barking. If we have a FTA with the EU what problem exists on the EIre border that does not exist right now and which both sides are quite happy to ignore? The only thing I can think of is third party imports into Eire or the UK. Surely that is just paperwork? And once again exactly the same issue we need to resolve with the rest of the EU?
Remember that once we leave the EU Ireland is a more powerful state than the UK. It will be more likely for them to invade and conquer us.
If Hitler and Napoleon and Philip II could not conquer us I doubt Leo Varadkar will
Who is our Churchill today? Who is our Wellington today?
I think Captain Mainwaring would probably be enough to handle Eire.
I suspect we’ve got a few RoI citizens oin our armed forces.
What a collossal cheek by the Tories biggest general election loser.
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
Major was also the only Tory leader to win a 4th consecutive general election for his party in the last 100 years. They need to repeat his feat in 1992 to keep Corbyn out next time
What a collossal cheek by the Tories biggest general election loser.
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
No, he didn't actually wear his underpants outside his trousers. Steve Bell made that up!Seems obvious really but apparently not to you!
What a collossal cheek by the Tories biggest general election loser.
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
No, he didn't actually wear his underpants outside his trousers. Steve Bell made that up!Seems obvious really but apparently not to you!
IIRC Edwina Currie said he tucked his shirt into his underpants. That’s what gave rise to it.
He wasn’t the best PM, for sure, but when his time was up he vacated the scene like a gentleman and he’s generally kept his head since.
John Major is making a fool of himself. I voted remain but leave won therefore we must leave. Democracy must be obeyed.
That was my view for a while - but I then realised quite how little plan the Leavers had, and how many of the promises were false, and that the vote was won on a flawed prospectus a la PPI.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
No one has any idea what will happen when we leave. According to the remain side we should be in a deep recession now. It was the terrible campaign of potential armaggedon by the remain side which led to leave winning. Lies were equal on both sides. Forecasts are always wrong. The country voted leave, thats it. Churchill won the war then lost the election. Democracy can be mad sometimes but it must be obeyed.
I agree with you on the campaign. Unicorn bullsh*t beat Terror bullsh*t. Were £350m a week for the NHS to be generated from leaving the EU, I would agree with you that we must follow through. That is what the vote was won on, and the standard the outcome should be held to. Otherwise we risk acting as blindly as the Rees-Mogg crew who aren't interested in any barriers, pain or loss on the way to the true goal. And I still think we are better than that as a country.
philipH - no way to such a polarising 2nd ref. All that would do would be to antagonise the country at a time when all efforts should be going into healing it. Not for me thanks!
So no 2nd referendum for you then, I assume, as any 2nd referendum will be polarising.
That is in fact quite a good argument for no 2nd referendum
See, I’m not alone in the Tory party, we should give away Northern Ireland, it is more hassle than it is worth.
At the very least, 81 percent of Leave voters felt the risk of the Irish peace process ‘unravelling’ was ‘worth it’ if this was the price of ‘taking back control’. Conservative Leave voters – supporters of what still purports to be a Unionist party – were even more vehement on this question: 87 percent felt it a risk worth taking.
The country voted leave, thats it. Churchill won the war then lost the election. Democracy can be mad sometimes but it must be obeyed.
I agree with that. As far as I can tell John Major also agrees. But it doesn't help much beyond removing the possibility of ignoring the whole thing. For instance, are we all happy with signing up to the Withdrawal Agreement that the EU has drafted today? Are we OK with outcomes that could decimate our car industry? In each case those are leave options. They would be respecting democracy.. But is it what we want?
What a collossal cheek by the Tories biggest general election loser.
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
No, he didn't actually wear his underpants outside his trousers. Steve Bell made that up!Seems obvious really but apparently not to you!
IIRC Edwina Currie said he tucked his shirt into his underpants. That’s what gace rise to it.
He wasn’t the best PM, for sure, but when his time was up he vacated the scene like a gentleman and he’s generally kept his head since.
Still Steve Bell's imagination as opposed to Stevef's reality.
See, I’m not alone in the Tory party, we should give away Northern Ireland, it is more hassle than it is worth.
At the very least, 81 percent of Leave voters felt the risk of the Irish peace process ‘unravelling’ was ‘worth it’ if this was the price of ‘taking back control’. Conservative Leave voters – supporters of what still purports to be a Unionist party – were even more vehement on this question: 87 percent felt it a risk worth taking.
Quite independently of Brexit, there are a lot of Conservatives who have become very discontented with the outworking of the GFA, largely in relation to the hounding of members of the security forces.
Comments
If we don't have a FTA and there are mutual tariffs to deal with along with no agreement on regulatory compliance things will get much more complicated but it is still far more of a problem for the EU (who allegedly are concerned about protecting the integrity of the Single Market or some such rubbish) than it is for us. If we take the default position that goods coming from the EU meet our standards, for example, we won't need to check them. If they are obsessed with us importing chlorinated chicken and then exporting it to Eire that is their concern.
Change Is Coming.
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39147/bsa34_moral_issues_final.pdf
While you're are at it, do you want to re-run the 1997 election? Convince us now of what a shit that Tony Blair is going to turn out to be?
There's a case for what Major is trying to say. But for remain to ever gain any traction they need different people fronting their attempted pincer movement.
It is a necessary reminder of the golden rule of Brexit: that Remainers' glee is inversely proportional to their ability to influence events
The ball is in our court. We can continue to reject common regulation with the EU for Northern Ireland and take our chance on either the EU folding or doing without a transition. I don't rate that chance particularly highly. The government thought they could get away with making casual commitments that they could quietly forget about. That won't work.
You are sledging me now!
You know perfectly well what I am alluding to! Johnson's disregard for the GFA could return us to what went on before. Do we really want that in order to ensure PM Boris?
And he's right!
If the Euro ever came on the cards we could firmly rule out ever rejoining
The swing from Conservative to Labour in 2017 was exactly the same as in 1992 to two decimal places: 2.04%.
2017 changes:
Con +5.77%
Lab +9.84%
1992 changes:
Con -0.40%
Lab +3.67%
Yup, Remainer glee - just like over Miller, Chapman and Obama's 'back of the queue'
There is no sign of a consensual leader in the wings. Right now, May is the best they've got. Once she's gone, the already fragile consensus within the party breaks down.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125589838
I still wonder if she stays long after next March, personally.
Collective noun for a group of Remainers - a superfluity.
Would there be any point, any cost, where you would think again whether the country should go through with it?
Who is our Churchill today? Who is our Wellington today?
There he is:John Major, looking more like his Spitting Image puppet than ever, the man who lost the general election of 1997 by a bigger margin than any prime minister since the Duke of Wellington; the man whose big idea in 7 years in power was the "cones hotline"
The man who presided over the economic chaos of Black Wednesday, who presided over the biggest rise in interest rates in a single day since records began.
The prime minister who was mocked by cartoonists for wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
Has the temerity to stand in front of the cameras this afternoon and tell the British People, in alliance with his nemesis, Tony Blair, that the British Establishment will not accept the biggest vote for change in British political history in the 2016 referendum, that they must think again, that the unelected House of Lords should overrule a democratic vote by the people.
And to present that arrogance as a matter of conscience.
Major and Blair, the Laurel and Hardy of British politics who think they know better than the People.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4YY7KWJAtA
Do you think UK should:
i) Join EU fully, Schengen, Euro, Ever closer union, FOM
ii) Leave EU completely, SM, CU, no FOM, own Trade Agreements
The Duke of Wellington opposed giving the People the vote and a say in our national affairs. Today's Duke of Wellington was every Remoaner.
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/968861449312448512
One of my least favourite former PMs, but this guy has turned into a genius elder statesman!
A fresh referendum at present might very well produce a 52:48 Remain outcome. That would not lead to a more united country.
philipH - no way to such a polarising 2nd ref. All that would do would be to antagonise the country at a time when all efforts should be going into healing it. Not for me thanks!
In 1975, 61% of 18-29 year olds backed Remain. 41 years on, about 36% of the same voters, now aged 59-70, did so.
He wasn’t the best PM, for sure, but when his time was up he vacated the scene like a gentleman and he’s generally kept his head since.
That is in fact quite a good argument for no 2nd referendum
At the very least, 81 percent of Leave voters felt the risk of the Irish peace process ‘unravelling’ was ‘worth it’ if this was the price of ‘taking back control’. Conservative Leave voters – supporters of what still purports to be a Unionist party – were even more vehement on this question: 87 percent felt it a risk worth taking.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/brexiteers-you-were-warned-about-ireland/
Only reason she is still in post