The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland. Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will. Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.
All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.
SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."
Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.
Not going to happen is it. Is it?
Odds against..
The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one.....
Agreed. Highly unlikely.
If Mrs May wins the "a customs union" amendment by 3 votes there will be a few border communities in Sinn Fein held seats thinking "Oops" or slightly stronger words.
Mr. B, McLaren had a good chassis last year, but assessing it was difficult because of the engine problems.
Not convinced Renault can challenge much this year. They've got a good platform for the long term but the time to change things around is pretty short.
Voting to leave the EU then having the EU responsible for our customs, particularly on the disadvantageous Turkish model, would be wretched. If you can find polling whereby people approve of us having no control and the EU dictating our customs, and third party countries getting preferential trade with us but the UK not benefiting on a reciprocal basis, then fair enough.
As a starter, there's this, from the definitive election analysts, on people's main reasons for Brexit:
You can just about see "trade", if you really zoom in; it was cited by approximately 3% of the number of people who cited "immigration". This does not exactly seem to me like one of the main catalysts of the Leave vote, and thus that it would be anti-democratic or showing "contempt" for Leave voters just because it wasn't delivered on.
As a sidenote, who is proposing that Britain should have the Turkish model for a customs union? I find it extraordinary that some Brexiteers have gone from accusing people of "talking Britain down" if they say Britain won't be able to get absolutely everything their own way in the negotiations, to now saying that Britain wouldn't be able to strike a tougher deal even than Turkey on the CU if we so desired.
This always strikes me as a "tail wagging the dog" kind of issue although I do appreciate that there are political implications. But even there I keep asking myself whether the DUP will ever do anything that might smack of support for Corbyn.
This will be the DUP who actually formed a coalition with Sinn Fein? Northern Irish politics always seems to consist of absolute "Never!" commitments which sometimes change overnight. But I agree it's not very likely.
Mr. 565, sovereignty and control loom large there.
But "trade" doesn't....
Since people were perfectly able to specify "immigration", even though that could theoretically also come under the "sovereignty" and "control" banners, why wouldn't they have felt able to specify "trade" if it really was one of the things at the front of their mind like you claim it is?
The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
So was I!
I suppose that that makes sense to you. The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
Voting to leave the EU then having the EU responsible for our customs, particularly on the disadvantageous Turkish model, would be wretched. If you can find polling whereby people approve of us having no control and the EU dictating our customs, and third party countries getting preferential trade with us but the UK not benefiting on a reciprocal basis, then fair enough.
As a starter, there's this, from the definitive election analysts, on people's main reasons for Brexit:
You can just about see "trade", if you really zoom in; it was cited by approximately 3% of the number of people who cited "immigration". This does not exactly seem to me like one of the main catalysts of the Leave vote, and thus that it would be anti-democratic or showing "contempt" for Leave voters just because it wasn't delivered on.
As a sidenote, who is proposing that Britain should have the Turkish model for a customs union? I find it extraordinary that some Brexiteers have gone from accusing people of "talking Britain down" if they say Britain won't be able to get absolutely everything their own way in the negotiations, to now saying that Britain wouldn't be able to strike a tougher deal even than Turkey on the CU if we so desired.
How happily will Immigration/ CU/ cherry picking sit together?
This always strikes me as a "tail wagging the dog" kind of issue although I do appreciate that there are political implications. But even there I keep asking myself whether the DUP will ever do anything that might smack of support for Corbyn.
This will be the DUP who actually formed a coalition with Sinn Fein? Northern Irish politics always seems to consist of absolute "Never!" commitments which sometimes change overnight. But I agree it's not very likely.
Why would maintaining the CTA not be possible post- hard Brexit? There was a customs border in Ireland for most of the CTA's history, and at times it was quite rigorously enforced. Or are we back to needing to stop Polish plumbers from sneaking back into Great Britain through Northern Ireland?
The EU requires that external borders are hard for the passage of both people and goods unless there are appropriate agreements in place. Before 1973 when Eire and the UK simultaneously joined the then EEC, there was a CTA, but with customs posts on the border.
The border even pre-1973 was somewhat porous. My late uncle, who was a sales rep for a clothing manufacturer, used to do a lot of business in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh - this small village close to Co Cavan is sadly in the news today because of a house fire tragedy.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
There would not be much left of the Conservative Party if you removed the eurosceptics.
That's wrong. There are several different strands: the europhiles, the eurosceptics, and the europhobes. The eurosceptics are the ones who are not necessarily against EU membership, and think it may give advantages, but also have complaints and issues with it.
Hannan is firmly in the europhobe camp, not eurosceptic. They are much fewer in number.
To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.
The one area where Mr Tyndall and I disagree is on whether there are a large number of countries outside the EU which are desperate for free trade, but which have been stopped by the evil Commission.
My view is that there are not (although there are exceptions, such as Australia), and that we are leaving a great many existing EU agreements behind. (Such as the ones with Mercosur, South Africa, Israel, Canada, South Korea, much of sub-Saharan Africa etc.)
The goal of leaving the EU to sign hundreds of FTAs with countries rebuffed by the EU is a chimera.
Now, my preferred option would be to largely solve the issue by joining EFTA (whose FTA list is almost identical to the EU's, with the exception of not being quite so strong in Africa, but having actually completed an agreement with the GCC). But Dr Fox has ruled out joining EFTA (not EFTA/EEA, simply EFTA), for reasons known only to himself and his closest advisor (a small, imaginary, pig named Gerald).
If EFTA is off the table, then why not stay in the customs union in the medium term? It saves us a decade of replicating work that has already been done. It gives us control over our laws, and of immigration. Make it time limited (five or seven years) if you are concerned that it is staying in by another name (and which at least forces us to re-examine it), but it seems an odd sticking point.
There's another advantage to the customs unions: Rules of Origin. Today, an Aston Martin exported to South Korea incurs no tariff. If we exit the EU's customs union, and sign our own free trade agreement with Korea, then there is the very real risk that tariffs will be imposed. Why? Because Aston Martin's contain a mix of British and EU parts. While I don't know the mix today, I would be very surprised if the UK's content share exceeded the 60% required to be covered by a Korean FTA. (And exporting from the EU to Korea wouldn't work either, as it would not reach 60% EU content either.)
Now: I'm not saying the EU customs union is perfect. It's clearly not. It means a diminution of our sovereignty. But all things are relative: it does not affect our ability to control our immigration policy, and it does not involve the ECJ ruling on the franchise. It would be better to join EFTA than to stay in the customs union. But if we choose to do neither, then we are likely to significantly worsen our terms of trade with everyone else in the world. And if we worsen our terms of trade with everyone, then there isn't going to be £350m available every week for the NHS.
The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
So was I!
I suppose that that makes sense to you. The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
My mistake, I was taking your original point as individual rather than electorate.
The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
So was I!
I suppose that that makes sense to you. The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.
Now, my preferred option would be to largely solve the issue by joining EFTA (whose FTA list is almost identical to the EU's, with the exception of not being quite so strong in Africa, but having actually completed an agreement with the GCC). But Dr Fox has ruled out joining EFTA (not EFTA/EEA, simply EFTA), for reasons known only to himself and his closest advisor (a small, imaginary, pig named Gerald).
This is a fantasy. Joining EFTA would not give automatic access to the EU or to third countries with FTAs with EFTA. It's not a shortcut to anything but free trade within EFTA.
The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
So was I!
I suppose that that makes sense to you. The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
[Next time you're in Sweden, ask for a harskarinna].
On a serious note, Sir Edric's paramour is a sado-masochist, which led to some nice moments. At one point, in Kingdom, he awakes up shirtless and strapped to a diagonal cross, and can't recall if he's been abducted or Corkwell was just in a frisky mood.
Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland. Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will. Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.
All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.
SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."
Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.
Not going to happen is it. Is it?
To help you out here, no it isn't going to happen.
[...] Now, my preferred option would be to largely solve the issue by joining EFTA (whose FTA list is almost identical to the EU's, with the exception of not being quite so strong in Africa, but having actually completed an agreement with the GCC). But Dr Fox has ruled out joining EFTA (not EFTA/EEA, simply EFTA), for reasons known only to himself and his closest advisor (a small, imaginary, pig named Gerald). [...]
My guess, and it is just a guess, is that third countries won't be willing to roll over EFTA agreements for the UK. EFTA doesn't actually have FTAs with third countries in the same way the EU does. It is a broker that acts on behalf of members, who can if both parties agree adopt the negotiated treaty for their bilateral arrangement. Third parties who have negotiated these deals on the understanding they might apply to one small country and two tiny ones might want a renegotiation with the much larger UK. Also mucking around with existing schedules seriously complicates the UK's WTO status because of existing MFN obligations in place due to the UK's membership of the EU. Finally, the UK may not want EFTA deals if they think existing ones are better.
To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.
Now, my preferred option would be to largely solve the issue by joining EFTA (whose FTA list is almost identical to the EU's, with the exception of not being quite so strong in Africa, but having actually completed an agreement with the GCC). But Dr Fox has ruled out joining EFTA (not EFTA/EEA, simply EFTA), for reasons known only to himself and his closest advisor (a small, imaginary, pig named Gerald).
This is a fantasy. Joining EFTA would not give automatic access to the EU or to third countries with FTAs with EFTA. It's not a shortcut to anything but free trade within EFTA.
If we joined EFTA, then EFTA's own agreements would need codicils attached to them. But because dispute resolution mechanisms would remain unchanged (unlike with transitioning EU deals to the UK), this should be fairly routine.
The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
So was I!
I suppose that that makes sense to you. The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
Mr. Tyndall, what if an MP votes against their manifesto?
Then that is a matter between the MP and their constituents. Ideally we would have a system of Recall to allow them to be held to account as soon as possible but without that they will just havevto wait until the next election.
Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland. Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will. Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.
All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.
SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."
Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.
Not going to happen is it. Is it?
Odds against..
The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one.....
The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.
Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.
I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
So was I!
I suppose that that makes sense to you. The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Nope. It was Major himself who caused his own downfall by pushing us into the ERM when he was Chancellor. There was a sweet irony that he was also the one left holding that particular bomb when it went off.
Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland. Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will. Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.
All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.
SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."
Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.
Not going to happen is it. Is it?
Can't see it. But the Fermanagh and Tyrone by-election hasn't been called yet as far as I know. If SF didn't nominate but endorsed SDLP along those lines, perhaps with an arrangement that the new MP would themself stand down in a year? Not very plausible but perhaps more feasible than a mass set of resignations?
Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland. Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will. Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.
All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.
SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."
Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.
Not going to happen is it. Is it?
Can't see it. But the Fermanagh and Tyrone by-election hasn't been called yet as far as I know. If SF didn't nominate but endorsed SDLP along those lines, perhaps with an arrangement that the new MP would themself stand down in a year? Not very plausible but perhaps more feasible than a mass set of resignations?
To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.
The one area where Mr Tyndall and I disagree is on whether there are a large number of countries outside the EU which are desperate for free trade, but which have been stopped by the evil Commission.
My view is that there are not (although there are exceptions, such as Australia), and that we are leaving a great many existing EU agreements behind. (Such as the ones with Mercosur, South Africa, Israel, Canada, South Korea, much of sub-Saharan Africa etc.)
The goal of leaving the EU to sign hundreds of FTAs with countries rebuffed by the EU is a chimera.
Now, my preferred option would be to largely solve the issue by joining EFTA (whose FTA list is almost identical to the EU's, with the exception of not being quite so strong in Africa, but having actually completed an agreement with the GCC). But Dr Fox has ruled out joining EFTA (not EFTA/EEA, simply EFTA), for reasons known only to himself and his closest advisor (a small, imaginary, pig named Gerald).
If EFTA is off the table, then why not stay in the customs union in the medium term? It saves us a decade of replicating work that has already been done. It gives us control over our laws, and of immigration. Make it time limited (five or seven years) if you are concerned that it is staying in by another name (and which at least forces us to re-examine it), but it seems an odd sticking point.
There's another advantage to the customs unions: Rules of Origin. Today, an Aston Martin exported to South Korea incurs no tariff. If we exit the EU's customs union, and sign our own free trade agreement with Korea, then there is the very real risk that tariffs will be imposed. Why? Because Aston Martin's contain a mix of British and EU parts. While I don't know the mix today, I would be very surprised if the UK's content share exceeded the 60% required to be covered by a Korean FTA. (And exporting from the EU to Korea wouldn't work either, as it would not reach 60% EU content either.)
Now: I'm not saying the EU customs union is perfect. It's clearly not. It means a diminution of our sovereignty. But all things are relative: it does not affect our ability to control our immigration policy, and it does not involve the ECJ ruling on the franchise. It would be better to join EFTA than to stay in the customs union. But if we choose to do neither, then we are likely to significantly worsen our terms of trade with everyone else in the world. And if we worsen our terms of trade with everyone, then there isn't going to be £350m available every week for the NHS.
It is not just about trade deals though. Membership of the EU Customs Union means continuing to surrender voting rights at the WTO and other international bodies
Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland. Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will. Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.
All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.
SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."
Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.
Not going to happen is it. Is it?
Can't see it. But the Fermanagh and Tyrone by-election hasn't been called yet as far as I know. If SF didn't nominate but endorsed SDLP along those lines, perhaps with an arrangement that the new MP would themself stand down in a year? Not very plausible but perhaps more feasible than a mass set of resignations?
SF want to annihilate the SDLP. They'd never agree to such an arrangement. They might agree to stand down in South Belfast if the SDLP stood down in North Belfast, but that's it.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
There would not be much left of the Conservative Party if you removed the eurosceptics.
@rcs1000 - good to know I’m not the only Leaver who doesn’t see some kind of customs union as being the end of the world, and an unforgivable betrayal of the British people.
It’s out of our hands now anyway. Let’s see what May says on Friday.
I can't see this happening. In the context of Irish politics, I can see why the Taoiseach would press this course of action on Sinn Fein: it plays well to his own voter base.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
There would not be much left of the Conservative Party if you removed the eurosceptics.
And there won't be much left soon if you don't.
There I beg to differ. You can't just wish away millions of voters.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
There would not be much left of the Conservative Party if you removed the eurosceptics.
And there won't be much left soon if you don't.
The Tories got their highest voteshare since 1983 by promising to implement Brexit
Mr. L, it was odd here a short time ago. Sky darkened, heavy snowfall, middle-distance was swallowed by white, and then, just ten minutes later, bright sun and blue skies.
Mr. L, it was odd here a short time ago. Sky darkened, heavy snowfall, middle-distance was swallowed by white, and then, just ten minutes later, bright sun and blue skies.
It is quite patchy here too but the difference with earlier in the day is that it has gone below zero and it has stopped melting. When its on its a proper blizzard and it is starting to pile up. My son is already checking his e-mails about school tomorrow.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Didn't the poll tax and sleaze have anything to do with the Tories being kicked out?
Ps - I thought the tory "leavers" were headbangers in the 90's - now it seems a lot of what they said is actually coming to pass.
The Tories won a majority after the poll tax.
The poll tax was only introduced in Scotland as I recall, not England Wales or NI.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Didn't the poll tax and sleaze have anything to do with the Tories being kicked out?
Ps - I thought the tory "leavers" were headbangers in the 90's - now it seems a lot of what they said is actually coming to pass.
The Tories won a majority after the poll tax.
The poll tax was only introduced in Scotland as I recall, not England Wales or NI.
Did not go down well with voters in Scotland.
It was introduced in England; just a year after Scotland.
Leastways, I remember having to pay it in 1991-ish.
The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.
Late to the party, but you're suggesting that the United Kingdom should be broken up. An internal border within a nation state? End of that nation state as presently constituted.
Mr. L, it was odd here a short time ago. Sky darkened, heavy snowfall, middle-distance was swallowed by white, and then, just ten minutes later, bright sun and blue skies.
Same here in Devon. Dog just had his first introduction to snow. Blew. His. Little. Mind!
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
There would not be much left of the Conservative Party if you removed the eurosceptics.
And there won't be much left soon if you don't.
The Tories got their highest voteshare since 1983 by promising to implement Brexit
Labour's wasn't too shabby, for promising to do the same.....
“The mayor told people to stay inside but they took part in snowball fights instead”
Bloody Italians!
The worry in Naples, is they bring a gun to a snowball fight.....
They're more likely to bring a good strong coffee (black, absolutely no chocolate sprinkled on top).
One of those pictures is of Piazza del Plebiscito, a gorgeous square in front of the Royal Palace and near the San Carlo Opera House. Nearby is Gambrinus, one of the great cafes of the world.
Naples also has one of the best chocolate shops ever - Gay Odins. Their chocolate log is to die for.
@rcs1000 - good to know I’m not the only Leaver who doesn’t see some kind of customs union as being the end of the world, and an unforgivable betrayal of the British people.
It’s out of our hands now anyway. Let’s see what May says on Friday.
It's a betrayal because it's the worst outcome of all. If we're gonna stay in the CU then stay in the SM. EFTA/EEA.
Of course many Remainers proposing this, propose it for precisely that reason: being in the CU but outside the SM will be so uncomfortable the pressure to reverse Brexit, or call a 2nd vote, will be irresistible.
I think we are now heading for a new general election or a 2nd referendum, or both (or a general election which is a proxy for a new plebiscite). I don't see how the Tories can avoid all the rocks and navigate to a safe harbour.
I don't think many Remainers are proposing to be in the Customs Union alone. You can be in a CU and either an FTA (the probable Govt choice to the extent we can distinguish any policy at all) or the full fat SM.
Edit: I haven't read anything about this beyond the video, but it doesn't really sounds like a fully-fledged 4G network; just using existing 4G it and peripherals for communications. Should be cheaper.
Mr. Evershed, well, that's what testing is there for.
Mr. Mark, Kai the dog was still too young (pre-shots) for a walk when we had the first of those deep winters. The snow in the garden came up to his stomach, and he was part-short haired border collie (much of his undercarriage was hairless) but it never seemed to bother him.
I think we are now heading for a new general election or a 2nd referendum, or both (or a general election which is a proxy for a new plebiscite). I don't see how the Tories can avoid all the rocks and navigate to a safe harbour.
All the rocks the Brexiteers said were "Project Fear"
Mr. Evershed, well, that's what testing is there for.
Mr. Mark, Kai the dog was still too young (pre-shots) for a walk when we had the first of those deep winters. The snow in the garden came up to his stomach, and he was part-short haired border collie (much of his undercarriage was hairless) but it never seemed to bother him.
Miss Cyclefree, she's a 'progressive', no?
Progressively useless......
It really matters this stuff. People should not be at risk of a miscarriage of justice and those who commit crimes should not get off because the prosecution is bloody useless. The rule of law is at the heart of a civilised society, however unpopular lawyers may be as a class (and however unfair this is to a fine body of upstanding women......and men).
“The mayor told people to stay inside but they took part in snowball fights instead”
Bloody Italians!
The worry in Naples, is they bring a gun to a snowball fight.....
They're more likely to bring a good strong coffee (black, absolutely no chocolate sprinkled on top).
One of those pictures is of Piazza del Plebiscito, a gorgeous square in front of the Royal Palace and near the San Carlo Opera House. Nearby is Gambrinus, one of the great cafes of the world.
Naples also has one of the best chocolate shops ever - Gay Odins. Their chocolate log is to die for.
Tempted, but I'm thinking I really shouldn't Google "Gay Odin's chocolate log"......
“The mayor told people to stay inside but they took part in snowball fights instead”
Bloody Italians!
The worry in Naples, is they bring a gun to a snowball fight.....
They're more likely to bring a good strong coffee (black, absolutely no chocolate sprinkled on top).
One of those pictures is of Piazza del Plebiscito, a gorgeous square in front of the Royal Palace and near the San Carlo Opera House. Nearby is Gambrinus, one of the great cafes of the world.
Naples also has one of the best chocolate shops ever - Gay Odins. Their chocolate log is to die for.
Tempted, but I'm thinking I really shouldn't Google "Gay Odin's chocolate log"......
Miss Cyclefree, I entirely agree. But that's what happens when idiots start describing plaintiffs as 'victims', which necessarily means they view the accused as guilty before any pesky conviction is required.
.... You know miles more about this than me, obviously. But it reminds of government idiocy over tech laws. I shouldn't know more about the basics than those who are professionally charged with legislating and regulating these areas.
*sighs*
Mr. P, the rocks are coming about because the likes of Grieve and Corbyn are grabbing at the wheel.
This article explains there will be no "transition" arrangement without the UK agreeing the NI CU&SM fallback. No transition would be utter chaos. The irresistible force we meets the immovable object and we have a humdinger of a mess. https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/968159345644134403
I think we are now heading for a new general election or a 2nd referendum, or both (or a general election which is a proxy for a new plebiscite). I don't see how the Tories can avoid all the rocks and navigate to a safe harbour.
All the rocks the Brexiteers said were "Project Fear"
Funny that...
a) We were always sovereign, the EU doesn't have that much of an impact on our daily lives b) We are so intertwined with the EU that leaving is impossible
Pick one.
If you believe as I do that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and has neither the desire nor the will to reform, that means either leaving at any cost, or admitting that democracy is dead as some doo doo.
Either way, arguing b) is unlikely to win many converts to your side.
Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
Didn't the poll tax and sleaze have anything to do with the Tories being kicked out?
Ps - I thought the tory "leavers" were headbangers in the 90's - now it seems a lot of what they said is actually coming to pass.
The Tories won a majority after the poll tax.
The poll tax was only introduced in Scotland as I recall, not England Wales or NI.
Did not go down well with voters in Scotland.
It was introduced in England & Wales in 1990, a year after Scotland. It was replaced by Council Tax in 1993.
The U.K. negotiators’ strategy is foolish in the extreme. They appear to think that if they dig their heels in over the financial settlement, eventually one or more EU countries will break ranks over trade negotiations. But if the Greek precedent is anything to go by, this is a vain hope. The EU27 know where their interests lie. They will stand firm over the Brexit negotiations just as the Eurozone did over Greece, and watch as the UK is dragged, kicking and screaming, over every one of its "red lines."
@rcs1000 - good to know I’m not the only Leaver who doesn’t see some kind of customs union as being the end of the world, and an unforgivable betrayal of the British people.
It’s out of our hands now anyway. Let’s see what May says on Friday.
It's a betrayal because it's the worst outcome of all. If we're gonna stay in the CU then stay in the SM. EFTA/EEA.
Of course many Remainers proposing this, propose it for precisely that reason: being in the CU but outside the SM will be so uncomfortable the pressure to reverse Brexit, or call a 2nd vote, will be irresistible.
I think we are now heading for a new general election or a 2nd referendum, or both (or a general election which is a proxy for a new plebiscite). I don't see how the Tories can avoid all the rocks and navigate to a safe harbour.
Staying in the EEA requires free movement, non negotiable for working class Leave voters. That is why Corbyn has just stuck to staying in 'a' Customs Union while still leaving the single market and EU.
Unless the LDs hold the balance of power after the next general election there will be no second referendum and unless Corbyn is replaced as Labour leader by someone like Umunna who wins a majority at the next general election we will not be staying in the single market
I think we are now heading for a new general election or a 2nd referendum, or both (or a general election which is a proxy for a new plebiscite). I don't see how the Tories can avoid all the rocks and navigate to a safe harbour.
All the rocks the Brexiteers said were "Project Fear"
Funny that...
a) We were always sovereign, the EU doesn't have that much of an impact on our daily lives b) We are so intertwined with the EU that leaving is impossible
Pick one.
If you believe as I do that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and has neither the desire nor the will to reform, that means either leaving at any cost, or admitting that democracy is dead as some doo doo.
Either way, arguing b) is unlikely to win many converts to your side.
The Good Friday Agreement, which is what is causing all the trouble, has nothing to do with the EU - it was signed by the UK and Ireland governments of their own free will. Its only because of the additional sovereignty being part of the EU gives Ireland, that they can enforce the GFA and tell the UK government where to go.
Comments
If Mrs May wins the "a customs union" amendment by 3 votes there will be a few border communities in Sinn Fein held seats thinking "Oops" or slightly stronger words.
Not convinced Renault can challenge much this year. They've got a good platform for the long term but the time to change things around is pretty short.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/928359937310384128
You can just about see "trade", if you really zoom in; it was cited by approximately 3% of the number of people who cited "immigration". This does not exactly seem to me like one of the main catalysts of the Leave vote, and thus that it would be anti-democratic or showing "contempt" for Leave voters just because it wasn't delivered on.
As a sidenote, who is proposing that Britain should have the Turkish model for a customs union? I find it extraordinary that some Brexiteers have gone from accusing people of "talking Britain down" if they say Britain won't be able to get absolutely everything their own way in the negotiations, to now saying that Britain wouldn't be able to strike a tougher deal even than Turkey on the CU if we so desired.
Since people were perfectly able to specify "immigration", even though that could theoretically also come under the "sovereignty" and "control" banners, why wouldn't they have felt able to specify "trade" if it really was one of the things at the front of their mind like you claim it is?
The electorate decided 52:48 so rather half-heartedly, wholeheartedly would be something like 70:30. Of course I accept that individuals had strong views but the overall electorate - nah.
And I write that as a man who, a short time earlier, corrected a poster who used 'less than' rather than 'fewer than'.
If someone says they're into bondage and domination, it's a safe bet they're into sado-masochism, even if they haven't used that precise term.
The border even pre-1973 was somewhat porous. My late uncle, who was a sales rep for a clothing manufacturer, used to do a lot of business in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh - this small village close to Co Cavan is sadly in the news today because of a house fire tragedy.
Hannan is firmly in the europhobe camp, not eurosceptic. They are much fewer in number.
I might like a woman to be verbally abusive towards me but not leave a physical mark on me.
My view is that there are not (although there are exceptions, such as Australia), and that we are leaving a great many existing EU agreements behind. (Such as the ones with Mercosur, South Africa, Israel, Canada, South Korea, much of sub-Saharan Africa etc.)
The goal of leaving the EU to sign hundreds of FTAs with countries rebuffed by the EU is a chimera.
Now, my preferred option would be to largely solve the issue by joining EFTA (whose FTA list is almost identical to the EU's, with the exception of not being quite so strong in Africa, but having actually completed an agreement with the GCC). But Dr Fox has ruled out joining EFTA (not EFTA/EEA, simply EFTA), for reasons known only to himself and his closest advisor (a small, imaginary, pig named Gerald).
If EFTA is off the table, then why not stay in the customs union in the medium term? It saves us a decade of replicating work that has already been done. It gives us control over our laws, and of immigration. Make it time limited (five or seven years) if you are concerned that it is staying in by another name (and which at least forces us to re-examine it), but it seems an odd sticking point.
There's another advantage to the customs unions: Rules of Origin. Today, an Aston Martin exported to South Korea incurs no tariff. If we exit the EU's customs union, and sign our own free trade agreement with Korea, then there is the very real risk that tariffs will be imposed. Why? Because Aston Martin's contain a mix of British and EU parts. While I don't know the mix today, I would be very surprised if the UK's content share exceeded the 60% required to be covered by a Korean FTA. (And exporting from the EU to Korea wouldn't work either, as it would not reach 60% EU content either.)
Now: I'm not saying the EU customs union is perfect. It's clearly not. It means a diminution of our sovereignty. But all things are relative: it does not affect our ability to control our immigration policy, and it does not involve the ECJ ruling on the franchise. It would be better to join EFTA than to stay in the customs union. But if we choose to do neither, then we are likely to significantly worsen our terms of trade with everyone else in the world. And if we worsen our terms of trade with everyone, then there isn't going to be £350m available every week for the NHS.
Not mine, I’m happy to say.
Also, sadism and masochism aren't purely physical. I'd condemn you as an ignoramus, but given the conversation I fear you'd enjoy it.
Beat that.
....
[Next time you're in Sweden, ask for a harskarinna].
On a serious note, Sir Edric's paramour is a sado-masochist, which led to some nice moments. At one point, in Kingdom, he awakes up shirtless and strapped to a diagonal cross, and can't recall if he's been abducted or Corkwell was just in a frisky mood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Tyrone_by-election,_2018
This - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440321/Naples-blanketed-heaviest-snow-50-years.html. - is much more fun!
Bloody Italians!
It’s out of our hands now anyway. Let’s see what May says on Friday.
Noone seems to have the foggiest judging by Betfair's market.
The poll tax was only introduced in Scotland as I recall, not England Wales or NI.
Did not go down well with voters in Scotland.
Leastways, I remember having to pay it in 1991-ish.
Edit. The caption is a bit of a cheat. The barbed wire is due to the lack of FoM.
A lesson to us all!
The news is reporting widespread disclosure failures by the CPS, way beyond the ones we know about relating to recent rape cases.
This is basic stuff.
One of those pictures is of Piazza del Plebiscito, a gorgeous square in front of the Royal Palace and near the San Carlo Opera House. Nearby is Gambrinus, one of the great cafes of the world.
Naples also has one of the best chocolate shops ever - Gay Odins. Their chocolate log is to die for.
"Moon to get 4G mobile network
Mobile giants Vodafone and Nokia have laid out plans to launch a 4G mobile network on the Moon in 2019."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-43211192/moon-to-get-4g-mobile-network
Edit: I haven't read anything about this beyond the video, but it doesn't really sounds like a fully-fledged 4G network; just using existing 4G it and peripherals for communications. Should be cheaper.
Still cool though.
Mr. Mark, Kai the dog was still too young (pre-shots) for a walk when we had the first of those deep winters. The snow in the garden came up to his stomach, and he was part-short haired border collie (much of his undercarriage was hairless) but it never seemed to bother him.
Miss Cyclefree, she's a 'progressive', no?
Yeah, but they get more convictions...
Funny that...
It really matters this stuff. People should not be at risk of a miscarriage of justice and those who commit crimes should not get off because the prosecution is bloody useless. The rule of law is at the heart of a civilised society, however unpopular lawyers may be as a class (and however unfair this is to a fine body of upstanding women......and men).
Who is the Justice Secretary? The Attorney-General? And why aren't they doing their bloody jobs??
It is perfectly respectable and utterly delicious......
.... You know miles more about this than me, obviously. But it reminds of government idiocy over tech laws. I shouldn't know more about the basics than those who are professionally charged with legislating and regulating these areas.
*sighs*
Mr. P, the rocks are coming about because the likes of Grieve and Corbyn are grabbing at the wheel.
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/968159345644134403
Time to take the REALLY MASSIVE CHEQUE into meetings, made out to the EU for £40,000,000,000.00
"And this is what you could have won......"
b) We are so intertwined with the EU that leaving is impossible
Pick one.
If you believe as I do that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and has neither the desire nor the will to reform, that means either leaving at any cost, or admitting that democracy is dead as some doo doo.
Either way, arguing b) is unlikely to win many converts to your side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Community_charge&redirect=no
"The EU doesn't affect us much, we really aren't integrated. But leaving is impossibly difficult and complicated."
The U.K. negotiators’ strategy is foolish in the extreme. They appear to think that if they dig their heels in over the financial settlement, eventually one or more EU countries will break ranks over trade negotiations. But if the Greek precedent is anything to go by, this is a vain hope. The EU27 know where their interests lie. They will stand firm over the Brexit negotiations just as the Eurozone did over Greece, and watch as the UK is dragged, kicking and screaming, over every one of its "red lines."
Unless the LDs hold the balance of power after the next general election there will be no second referendum and unless Corbyn is replaced as Labour leader by someone like Umunna who wins a majority at the next general election we will not be staying in the single market