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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UK Special Elections Super Thursday 1 : February 15th 2018

Higham Ferrers on Northamptonshire (Con defence) Result: Con 1,414 (57% -3% on last time), Lab 557 (22% +3% on last time), Lib Dem 336 (13% +2% on last time), UKIP 109 (4% -6% on last time), Green 81 (3%, no candidate last time) Conservative HOLD with a majority of 857 (35%) on a swing of 3% from Con to Lab

Read the full story here

RobD

Thanks Harry!

Big_G_NorthWales

All over the place by the looks of it

RobD

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

williamglenn

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/964622823410032640

CarlottaVance

https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/964623128528871424?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^m5|twgr^email|twcon^7046|twterm^1

Barnesian

RobD said:

Barnesian said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

tyson said:

A note to Joff Wild at SO from someone who has always kind of sided with you....I wish you’d STFU with your bizarre anti Corbyn posts. Leave that kind of nonsense to the Brexit and pcCOM ideologues...there are plenty of those around here who do not need a frustrated, articulate liberal left like yourself to encourage them.

Yes I'm very surprised at the passion that Corbyn stirs up in many of the left on here. It's unnaturally intense. It can't be his policies. They are leftish but not extreme. It can't be the man. He's quite gentle, polite and anti-violence. It can't be the damage to the Labour Party. He did quite well against May against all expectations. I just don't understand the passion.

I can understand why a Tory might be passionately against him. They can see his electoral threat. But a leftie? I agree it is perplexing why they would want to help the Tories undermine Corbyn.

The Tories are probably more afraid of Corbyn being replaced by Yvette Cooper or Clive Lewis. As SO has said, Corbyn is ensuring the Tories stay at 40% regardless of the difficulties they're encountering.

They won't be afraid of him being replaced by Yvette Cooper or Clive Lewis. They know there is no chance of that.

The Tories staying at 40% in spite of their poor performance can easily be explained by the fact that they are the natural home for Brexiteers (all 52% of them). About a quarter of the Tory 40% are ex-Kippers. It doesn't need Corbyn to explain why the Tories are sticking at 40%.

Lefties do the Tories work for them by knocking Corbyn.

A quarter? Seems a bit much, especially as the Tories were in the high thirties when UKIP were doing well.

FPT: UKIP had their highest share in late 2014 at around 16% when the Tories were under 32%.

UKIP is now around 4% and three-quarters of the other 12% have gone to the Tories, the other 3% to Labour.

OK Let's say a fifth of the Tory vote is ex-Kippers. Without them the Tories would be on 32% where they belong. Nothing to do with Corbyn.

dixiedean

Disappointing to see the Northants result, but very much as I suspected. If a party does not get punished for bankrupting the Council what incentive is there? This is not a Party political point, but incompetence ought to have consequences.
Depressing.

CarlottaVance

Thank you Mr Hayfield - looks like the Lib Dems are doing better getting their vote out....

MarqueeMark

Barnesian said:

RobD said:

Barnesian said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

tyson said:

A note to Joff Wild at SO from someone who has always kind of sided with you....I wish you’d STFU with your bizarre anti Corbyn posts. Leave that kind of nonsense to the Brexit and pcCOM ideologues...there are plenty of those around here who do not need a frustrated, articulate liberal left like yourself to encourage them.

Yes I'm very surprised at the passion that Corbyn stirs up in many of the left on here. It's unnaturally intense. It can't be his policies. They are leftish but not extreme. It can't be the man. He's quite gentle, polite and anti-violence. It can't be the damage to the Labour Party. He did quite well against May against all expectations. I just don't understand the passion.

I can understand why a Tory might be passionately against him. They can see his electoral threat. But a leftie? I agree it is perplexing why they would want to help the Tories undermine Corbyn.

The Tories are probably more afraid of Corbyn being replaced by Yvette Cooper or Clive Lewis. As SO has said, Corbyn is ensuring the Tories stay at 40% regardless of the difficulties they're encountering.

They won't be afraid of him being replaced by Yvette Cooper or Clive Lewis. They know there is no chance of that.

The Tories staying at 40% in spite of their poor performance can easily be explained by the fact that they are the natural home for Brexiteers (all 52% of them). About a quarter of the Tory 40% are ex-Kippers. It doesn't need Corbyn to explain why the Tories are sticking at 40%.

Lefties do the Tories work for them by knocking Corbyn.

A quarter? Seems a bit much, especially as the Tories were in the high thirties when UKIP were doing well.

FPT: UKIP had their highest share in late 2014 at around 16% when the Tories were under 32%.

UKIP is now around 4% and three-quarters of the other 12% have gone to the Tories, the other 3% to Labour.

OK Let's say a fifth of the Tory vote is ex-Kippers. Without them the Tories would be on 32% where they belong. Nothing to do with Corbyn.

We only ever lent them to UKIP though.

UKIP only ever had a short shelf life.

ReggieCide

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

Scott_P

FFS

https://twitter.com/gdnpolitics/status/964629154162343936

Another irony meter gone...

NickPalmer

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

Rhubarb

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

dixiedean

NickPalmer said:

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

And moreover when all 7 Tory MP's say the Tory Council is incompetent and should be removed.

Richard_Nabavi

NickPalmer said:

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

Perhaps voters thought that the alternatives would have bankrupted the council more quickly. I have no local knowledge, but somehow I don't expect that the Labour or LibDem candidates were campaigning on a platform of drastically cutting expenditure so as to stay within the council's means.

MarqueeMark

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Give it time....!

Barnesian

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

dixiedean

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

Perhaps voters thought that the alternatives would have bankrupted the council more quickly. I have no local knowledge, but somehow I don't expect that the Labour or LibDem candidates were campaigning on a platform of drastically cutting expenditure so as to stay within the council's means.

However, Councils of all stripes and priorities up and down the country have managed to stay within their means.
Except this one.

MarqueeMark

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

Richard_Nabavi

dixiedean said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

Perhaps voters thought that the alternatives would have bankrupted the council more quickly. I have no local knowledge, but somehow I don't expect that the Labour or LibDem candidates were campaigning on a platform of drastically cutting expenditure so as to stay within the council's means.

However, Councils of all stripes and priorities up and down the country have managed to stay within their means.
Except this one.

Oh sure, I'm not defending them, just pointing out that the fact that they've screwed up doesn't mean voters will automatically go for a party advocating even greater incompetence.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course, if Labour and the LibDems did campaign on sound finances.

ReggieCide

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Thank you for that. Given the hour and not being familiar with The Observer's web presentation, I missed what I suppose should have been obvious - hence FFS. It is a sobering experience but gives, me at least, an insight on how easily I was duped (saving grace - "FFS"?) when I considered myself a cynic and hard to dupe; a sort of soft hubris.

Barnesian

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

Benpointer

ReggieCide said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Thank you for that. Given the hour and not being familiar with The Observer's web presentation, I missed what I suppose should have been obvious - hence FFS. It is a sobering experience but gives, me at least, an insight on how easily I was duped (saving grace - "FFS"?) when I considered myself a cynic and hard to dupe; a sort of soft hubris.

We've all been there!

MarqueeMark

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

Benpointer

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out, but I suspect those who feel most outraged about this were never likely to vote for Corbyn's Labour anyway.

RoyalBlue

The leader of the opposition was an agent of a hostile foreign power. How many Labour MPs have spoken out against him so far?

Big_G_NorthWales

Benpointer said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out, but I suspect those who feel most outraged about this were never likely to vote for Corbyn's Labour anyway.

Maybe but Corbyn needs middle England and this just adds to his long list of anti west pro russia narrative. It also requires constant denials from his office

Benpointer

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler certainly looks like an 'interesting' character...

http://blackbag.gawker.com/the-crazy-emails-that-took-down-nsa-spook-john-schindle-1610203101

Benpointer

RoyalBlue said:

The leader of the opposition was an agent of a hostile foreign power. How many Labour MPs have spoken out against him so far?

Was he though?

dixiedean

Richard_Nabavi said:

dixiedean said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

Perhaps voters thought that the alternatives would have bankrupted the council more quickly. I have no local knowledge, but somehow I don't expect that the Labour or LibDem candidates were campaigning on a platform of drastically cutting expenditure so as to stay within the council's means.

However, Councils of all stripes and priorities up and down the country have managed to stay within their means.
Except this one.

Oh sure, I'm not defending them, just pointing out that the fact that they've screwed up doesn't mean voters will automatically go for a party advocating even greater incompetence.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course, if Labour and the LibDems did campaign on sound finances.

Well I have no local knowledge either, but having to sell a £53m HQ months after moving in is hardly sound financing.
It is depressing to see no electoral comeback.
I say similar about some Labour councils. Rotherham being a not so shiny example.

steve_garner

Benpointer said:

RoyalBlue said:

The leader of the opposition was an agent of a hostile foreign power. How many Labour MPs have spoken out against him so far?

Was he though?

Who knows? But a week ago you were telling us the Presidents Club were worse than Oxfam. Funny old world innit.

Rhubarb

dixiedean said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

dixiedean said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

Many thanks, Harry. As dixiedean says, the two Northants results are striking - "So you've bankrupted the council, and you say it's the fault of the Government, who are also of your party? Fine, you've got my vote." And it's hard to argue it's fear of Corbyn when the quesiton is whether the local council Tory majority ought to be slightly reduced. Rather, people who bother to vote in February are loyalists, regardless.

Perhaps voters thought that the alternatives would have bankrupted the council more quickly. I have no local knowledge, but somehow I don't expect that the Labour or LibDem candidates were campaigning on a platform of drastically cutting expenditure so as to stay within the council's means.

However, Councils of all stripes and priorities up and down the country have managed to stay within their means.
Except this one.

Oh sure, I'm not defending them, just pointing out that the fact that they've screwed up doesn't mean voters will automatically go for a party advocating even greater incompetence.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course, if Labour and the LibDems did campaign on sound finances.

Well I have no local knowledge either, but having to sell a £53m HQ months after moving in is hardly sound financing.
It is depressing to see no electoral comeback.
I say similar about some Labour councils. Rotherham being a not so shiny example.

The upside to some of the odd gains and losses at the last election is that it might shake some of these fiefdoms up.

Barnesian

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

MarqueeMark

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

Foxy

Scott_P said:

FFS

https://twitter.com/gdnpolitics/status/964629154162343936

Another irony meter gone...

After organic carrots as central to our Brexit strategy, nothing is too absurd. Brexit has jumped a whole school of sharks.

Benpointer

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

brendan16

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/964622823410032640

Given her previous record and intended polices perhaps the slogan should have been

'Support Hillary. Save American Muslims and drone Pakistani, Syrian and Libyan Muslims instead?'

Barnesian

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

OchEye

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

More like a a StB officer being inventive with their accounts to HQ. Why on earth would Corbyn accept money from a questionable source, when quite literally, he had no influence, anywhere? Now if it had been Liam Fox, and the damage he did to the UK military as SoS Defense, then that is another question entirely....

Foxy

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

The interview with the source is interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5401097/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-paid-Czech-secret-police-spy-claims.html?__twitter_impression=true

If his claims of multiple visits to the CZ embassy there will be multiple witnesses, and an MI5 file.

More likely isithat a retired Slovakian spook has just gained a more comfy retirement.

Dura_Ace

Corbyn's Wanker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy shenanigans aren't going to hurt him at all even if he took money. It's too long ago and not enough people care about that sort of thing in the fantastical twilight of the post-Trump milieu.

The parameters for a extinction level even on a politician's career have wildly shifted and we'd better get used to it.

OchEye

Foxy said:

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

The interview with the source is interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5401097/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-paid-Czech-secret-police-spy-claims.html?__twitter_impression=true

If his claims of multiple visits to the CZ embassy there will be multiple witnesses, and an MI5 file.

More likely isithat a retired Slovakian spook has just gained a more comfy retirement.

Might be quite interesting to read the MI5/6 files on Nigel Harmsworth and Paul Dacre

OchEye

OchEye said:

Foxy said:

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

He was given an operational contact label of COB because he was of potential interest among many others. So in excitable neo-con terms, Corbyn was a communist spy. This is a good example of fake news.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

The interview with the source is interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5401097/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-paid-Czech-secret-police-spy-claims.html?__twitter_impression=true

If his claims of multiple visits to the CZ embassy there will be multiple witnesses, and an MI5 file.

More likely isithat a retired Slovakian spook has just gained a more comfy retirement.

Might be quite interesting to read the MI5/6 files on Nigel Harmsworth and Paul Dacre

Or even the HMRC ones....

OchEye

OchEye said:

OchEye said:

Foxy said:

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

MarqueeMark said:

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

Wow! What a revelation.

"To anyone acquainted with Chekist tradecraft, however, Czechoslovak secret police files make it perfectly clear that Corbyn was recruited by the StB at a minimum as an “operational contact,” to use their jargon. In Western terms, Corbyn was a Communist spy."

Wow! What a revelation.

"John Schindler is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst."

What are your credentials against that?

John Schindler is a self-styled security expert with a blog called XX Committee.

My credentials are that I can read English and I can detect fake news. Did you note the jump to "In Western terms, Corbyn was a communist spy". Can you detect the logical leap?

I can detect a degree of panic that Labour really don't know where this story goes - or how bad it might be......

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

The interview with the source is interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5401097/amp/Jeremy-Corbyn-paid-Czech-secret-police-spy-claims.html?__twitter_impression=true

If his claims of multiple visits to the CZ embassy there will be multiple witnesses, and an MI5 file.

More likely isithat a retired Slovakian spook has just gained a more comfy retirement.

Might be quite interesting to read the MI5/6 files on Nigel Harmsworth and Paul Dacre

Or even the HMRC ones....

Considering the painful honesty in Corbyn's own HMRC tax forms, then if he requested the HMRC to show all his tax forms, perhaps the Tory front bench should allow theirs to go public...

MarqueeMark

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

AndyJS

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

rcs1000

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Theuniondivvie

MarqueeMark said:

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

Kinda difficult to owe (present tense) allegiance to either the Soviet Union or Czechoslovakia.

Theuniondivvie

More non binary fun.

https://twitter.com/ross_chmiel/status/964255904504909825

viewcode

Theuniondivvie said:

More non binary fun.

h ttps://twitter.com/ross_chmiel/status/964255904504909825

I see your Jane Bond and raise you female presidents

https://i.redd.it/rw4f7r9zz7g01.jpg

via

https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/7xk1qc/if_us_presidents_had_been_women/

Pulpstar

Dura_Ace said:

Corbyn's Wanker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy shenanigans aren't going to hurt him at all even if he took money. It's too long ago and not enough people care about that sort of thing in the fantastical twilight of the post-Trump milieu.

The parameters for a extinction level even on a politician's career have wildly shifted and we'd better get used to it.

The Daily Mail were banging on about Ed Milibands dad being a communist traitor a couple of years ago I think. The online paper makes good money but noone takes their journalists seriously on stuff like this.

viewcode

RoyalBlue said:

The leader of the opposition was an agent of a hostile foreign power. How many Labour MPs have spoken out against him so far?

Would it be pedantic of me to point out that he was a source, not an agent, asset, operative or officer? IIUC he was somebody who provided information, not somebody who acted for the country nor the intelligence agency.

viewcode

Dura_Ace said:

... Wanker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy....

I am so stealing that.

ExiledInScotland

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Spot on. Previous generations had common experiences that tied them together across and within those generations - wars provided a semblance of us vs. them, and education based on British history, literature and the values of the enlightenment provided some inoculation against stupidity. My parents can spot Fake News a mile off, but my youngest daughter believes everything she sees on Youtube.

Now we have tinkered with education to remove the swathe of history and core literature, which means that kids cannot understand or connect with the.us or our parents - I live in Scotland where my kids (at a good school) only studied the Scottish Wars of Independence (guess who from?), the Jacobites (again, nasty English), the abolition of Slavery (good, but...) and WW2 (from a home front perspective). They have no real understanding of who they should be because they don't know where they come from. I genuinely despair.

And don't accuse me of being a little Englander or some British supremacist - I don't view history through rose coloured glasses. My core point is the famous saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

DecrepitJohnL

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Trump's genius was to adopt and subvert the fake news label.

Elliot

Barnesian said:

tyson said:

A note to Joff Wild at SO from someone who has always kind of sided with you....I wish you’d STFU with your bizarre anti Corbyn posts. Leave that kind of nonsense to the Brexit and pcCOM ideologues...there are plenty of those around here who do not need a frustrated, articulate liberal left like yourself to encourage them.

Yes I'm very surprised at the passion that Corbyn stirs up in many of the left on here. It's unnaturally intense. It can't be his policies. They are leftish but not extreme. It can't be the man. He's quite gentle, polite and anti-violence. It can't be the damage to the Labour Party. He did quite well against May against all expectations. I just don't understand the passion.

I can understand why a Tory might be passionately against him. They can see his electoral threat. But a leftie? I agree it is perplexing why they would want to help the Tories undermine Corbyn.

It is because we can see the obvious that any manifesto moderation is a false facade behind the extremism he has supported all his life.

On a personal level, I also have strong family links to Iran and have distant family members who have been disappeared by the regime. It sickens me that a man paid by the despots that run that country could be British Prime Minister. How any left winger who believes in human rights can back someome who has legitimised the propaganda of such brutal theocrats is beyond me.

OldKingCole

I know this is late to the topic, but after a 13 hour flight back to UK only just seen it.

Good results for LD’s

OldKingCole

ExiledInScotland said:

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Spot on. Previous generations had common experiences that tied them together across and within those generations - wars provided a semblance of us vs. them, and education based on British history, literature and the values of the enlightenment provided some inoculation against stupidity. My parents can spot Fake News a mile off, but my youngest daughter believes everything she sees on Youtube.

Now we have tinkered with education to remove the swathe of history and core literature, which means that kids cannot understand or connect with the.us or our parents - I live in Scotland where my kids (at a good school) only studied the Scottish Wars of Independence (guess who from?), the Jacobites (again, nasty English), the abolition of Slavery (good, but...) and WW2 (from a home front perspective). They have no real understanding of who they should be because they don't know where they come from. I genuinely despair.

And don't accuse me of being a little Englander or some British supremacist - I don't view history through rose coloured glasses. My core point is the famous saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

TBH, shouldn't a Scottish perspective on the Jacobites be fairly even handed? IIRC suport for the Stuart cause was by nome means universal in Scotland.

AlastairMeeks

A mixed bag. The Conservatives clearly making advances in some areas, clearly being rejected in others.

The people of Northants evidently get the public service they deserve.

Charles

Barnesian said:

Rhubarb said:

ReggieCide said:

RobD said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/16/jeremy-corbyn-knew-spy-cold-war-source-says-czech-diplomat/

I'm not sure whether this has been posted before

http://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

the Observer FFS

That's not the Observer you think it is...

Quite.

"He assessed Corbyn, who was known as a sharp critic of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Britain’s close ties with the Americans, as “negative towards the USA, as well as the current politics of the Conservative government.” " Wow! What a revelation.

So when you fill in a form which asks you to tick a box for Male/Female/Other you leave it blank because the answer is obvious?

You need to remember that secret police are bureaucracies too

ydoethur

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign...

He's already admitted that under another heading and he hasn't had to resign.

(Incidentally an I the only one who finds Barnesian's protests on fake news amusing when he's such an avid reader of Skwawkbox?)

Casino_Royale

Pulpstar said:

Dura_Ace said:

Corbyn's Wanker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy shenanigans aren't going to hurt him at all even if he took money. It's too long ago and not enough people care about that sort of thing in the fantastical twilight of the post-Trump milieu.

The parameters for a extinction level even on a politician's career have wildly shifted and we'd better get used to it.

The Daily Mail were banging on about Ed Milibands dad being a communist traitor a couple of years ago I think. The online paper makes good money but noone takes their journalists seriously on stuff like this.

Center Parcs do. They've just done a Virgin over a Littlejohn article.

Casino_Royale

Theuniondivvie said:

More non binary fun.

https://twitter.com/ross_chmiel/status/964255904504909825

That just goes to show how stupid the idea of a female James Bond is.

AndyJS

Do Italians really want Berlusconi as prime minister again? The polls seem to be saying that's the most likely outcome.

Casino_Royale

RoyalBlue said:

The leader of the opposition was an agent of a hostile foreign power. How many Labour MPs have spoken out against him so far?

The current generation of Labour MPs don't exactly compare well to the brave souls who spoke out against Nazism and argued for rearmament in the 1930s, do they?

Wouldn't say boo to a goose.

ydoethur

AndyJS said:

Do Italians really want Berlusconi as prime minister again? The polls seem to be saying that's the most likely outcome.

Perhaps they know he cannot be PM and therefore are not technically supporting him?

That said I believe he is the second-longest serving Italian Prime Minister so clearly he has a big following somewhere.

Casino_Royale

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

It's the perverse outcome of social media.

Rather than expanding and broadening free speech and open dialogue, it's actually become a tool for enforcing orthodoxy and amplifying opinion-based, rather than fact-based, evidence.

Recidivist

MarqueeMark said:

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

I think the biggest real world impact of this story will be in workplaces with vocal Tory partisans. They've already bored people rigid with Brexit and will now be telling people all about some theory they've got that Corbyn is actually a communist. Everyone has already worked out that the only chance they have getting them to shut up about it all is to feign agreement and change the subject.

ydoethur

Recidivist said:

MarqueeMark said:

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

I think the biggest real world impact of this story will be in workplaces with vocal Tory partisans. They've already bored people rigid with Brexit and will now be telling people all about some theory they've got that Corbyn is actually a communist. Everyone has already worked out that the only chance they have getting them to shut up about it all is to feign agreement and change the subject.

They have been talking about it for years Recidivist. The only problem with this story is that it confirms everything we already knew about Corbyn and that it is already becoming alarmingly obvious that as with Trump, people don't care.

Actually though the last thread and this one show an interesting circling of the wagons from his admirers particularly against the depressingly few remaining clear-eyed Labour voters (look at the attacks on Joff for daring to point out that Corbyn is unfit for public office). He really does inspire passion in his supporters. It's a terrible shame that all that energy and idealism is wasted on somebody like Corbyn instead of channeled fruitfully behind an individual of ability and integrity.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Thanks for this, Mr. Hayfield. Looks like a night of sandal supremacy.

Theuniondivvie

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

More non binary fun.

https://twitter.com/ross_chmiel/status/964255904504909825

That just goes to show how stupid the idea of a female James Bond is.

Shawna still looks like she wouldn't take any shit.

TGOHF

The idea that a no mark like Corbyn will defy gravity indefinitely is obviously incorrect.

Each time he loses a feather the plunge grows closer.

It’s coming.

Recidivist

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

MarqueeMark said:

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

I think the biggest real world impact of this story will be in workplaces with vocal Tory partisans. They've already bored people rigid with Brexit and will now be telling people all about some theory they've got that Corbyn is actually a communist. Everyone has already worked out that the only chance they have getting them to shut up about it all is to feign agreement and change the subject.

They have been talking about it for years Recidivist. The only problem with this story is that it confirms everything we already knew about Corbyn and that it is already becoming alarmingly obvious that as with Trump, people don't care.

Actually though the last thread and this one show an interesting circling of the wagons from his admirers particularly against the depressingly few remaining clear-eyed Labour voters (look at the attacks on Joff for daring to point out that Corbyn is unfit for public office). He really does inspire passion in his supporters. It's a terrible shame that all that energy and idealism is wasted on somebody like Corbyn instead of channeled fruitfully behind an individual of ability and integrity.

This hypothetical individual of ability and integrity would still be ruthlessly attacked at every opportunity by the phone hackers, and the feeble minded would still parrot those attacks.

TheJezziah

Recidivist said:

I think the biggest real world impact of this story will be in workplaces with vocal Tory partisans. They've already bored people rigid with Brexit and will now be telling people all about some theory they've got that Corbyn is actually a communist. Everyone has already worked out that the only chance they have getting them to shut up about it all is to feign agreement and change the subject.

I've tried to write a reply a few times but it is something of a struggle to respectfully approach the idea seriously.

I think once the unelectable line went people have just started to get a bit desperate in regard to Corbyn, claiming he is a communist spy and then ranting on about Trump seems a bit ironic as well....

ydoethur

TheJezziah said:

Recidivist said:

I think the biggest real world impact of this story will be in workplaces with vocal Tory partisans. They've already bored people rigid with Brexit and will now be telling people all about some theory they've got that Corbyn is actually a communist. Everyone has already worked out that the only chance they have getting them to shut up about it all is to feign agreement and change the subject.

I've tried to write a reply a few times but it is something of a struggle to respectfully approach the idea seriously.

I think once the unelectable line went people have just started to get a bit desperate in regard to Corbyn, claiming he is a communist spy and then ranting on about Trump seems a bit ironic as well....

The real irony is unfortunately how similar they are. For walls paid for by Mexico, read nationalisation paid for by er,...

MarqueeMark

Recidivist said:

This hypothetical individual of ability and integrity would still be ruthlessly attacked at every opportunity by the phone hackers

They've lost the Daily Mirror? Things are bad.....

Theuniondivvie

ExiledInScotland said:

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Spot on. Previous generations had common experiences that tied them together across and within those generations - wars provided a semblance of us vs. them, and education based on British history, literature and the values of the enlightenment provided some inoculation against stupidity. My parents can spot Fake News a mile off, but my youngest daughter believes everything she sees on Youtube.

Now we have tinkered with education to remove the swathe of history and core literature, which means that kids cannot understand or connect with the.us or our parents - I live in Scotland where my kids (at a good school) only studied the Scottish Wars of Independence (guess who from?), the Jacobites (again, nasty English), the abolition of Slavery (good, but...) and WW2 (from a home front perspective). They have no real understanding of who they should be because they don't know where they come from. I genuinely despair.

And don't accuse me of being a little Englander or some British supremacist - I don't view history through rose coloured glasses. My core point is the famous saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Things have changed since my day. History from primary school to higher grade was Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Tudors, a bit of (English) civil war, the Industrial Revolution, 19thC UK (the Corn Laws are forever etched on my heart). Not a sniff of specific Scottish history.

How much of its own history do you think a country with its own education system should teach? If you were ExiedInEire how would you expect their schools to teach your kids who they should be and where they come from?

ydoethur

Recidivist said:

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

MarqueeMark said:

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

I think the biggest real world impact of this story will be in workplaces with vocal Tory partisans. They've already bored people rigid with Brexit and will now be telling people all about some theory they've got that Corbyn is actually a communist. Everyone has already worked out that the only chance they have getting them to shut up about it all is to feign agreement and change the subject.

They have been talking about it for years Recidivist. The only problem with this story is that it confirms everything we already knew about Corbyn and that it is already becoming alarmingly obvious that as with Trump, people don't care.

Actually though the last thread and this one show an interesting circling of the wagons from his admirers particularly against the depressingly few remaining clear-eyed Labour voters (look at the attacks on Joff for daring to point out that Corbyn is unfit for public office). He really does inspire passion in his supporters. It's a terrible shame that all that energy and idealism is wasted on somebody like Corbyn instead of channeled fruitfully behind an individual of ability and integrity.

This hypothetical individual of ability and integrity would still be ruthlessly attacked at every opportunity by the phone hackers, and the feeble minded would still parrot those attacks.

Didn't realise the Daily Mirror was getting involved too. Things must be bad for Corbyn!

FF43

AndyJS said:

Do Italians really want Berlusconi as prime minister again? The polls seem to be saying that's the most likely outcome.

Berlusconi tells Italians what they like to hear and makes them feel good about the idea they have of themselves. Like Brexiteers in this country. Britain is becoming more like Italy.

Berlusconi is also a skilled practitioner of factional politics.

Alistair

OldKingCole said:

ExiledInScotland said:

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Spot on. Previous generations had common experiences that tied them together across and within those generations - wars provided a semblance of us vs. them, and education based on British history, literature and the values of the enlightenment provided some inoculation against stupidity. My parents can spot Fake News a mile off, but my youngest daughter believes everything she sees on Youtube.

Now we have tinkered with education to remove the swathe of history and core literature, which means that kids cannot understand or connect with the.us or our parents - I live in Scotland where my kids (at a good school) only studied the Scottish Wars of Independence (guess who from?), the Jacobites (again, nasty English), the abolition of Slavery (good, but...) and WW2 (from a home front perspective). They have no real understanding of who they should be because they don't know where they come from. I genuinely despair.

And don't accuse me of being a little Englander or some British supremacist - I don't view history through rose coloured glasses. My core point is the famous saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

TBH, shouldn't a Scottish perspective on the Jacobites be fairly even handed? IIRC suport for the Stuart cause was by nome means universal in Scotland.

There's no f'ing way Jacobites and Bonnie Prince Charlie is covered as one sided 'yah boo sucks the English are nasty' in Scottish history classes.

BPC is presented as a foreign chancer who exploited Native discontent to try and seize the UK crown.

Barnesian

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Fake news is very corrosive of truth. It is everywhere in the red tops, social media, even in respectable blogs. And it's getting much worse.

I think detecting fake news is an important life skill. There are rules of thumb you can apply. What is the original source? Is it credible? Does it have an agenda? Are there leaps of logic? Is the summary or conclusion a fair representation of the content etc? I think "detecting fake news" would be a worthwhile addition to the curriculum for school children.

The big problem with trying to detect fake news is that anyone who sees genuine news they don't like is going to describe it as fake news from now on. It's too much of a temptation for them not to do so.

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Confirmation bias is the most powerful. It is at the root of all prejudice. Explanation of confirmation bias should be in the school curriculum along with detection of fake news and misuse of statistics.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Barnesian, not convinced politicians will add something to the curriculum that will make it more difficult for them to obfuscate with statistical bullshit....

SquareRoot

NEW THREAD

Barnesian

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Barnesian, not convinced politicians will add something to the curriculum that will make it more difficult for them to obfuscate with statistical bullshit....

I think you're right.

Mexicanpete

MarqueeMark said:

Benpointer said:

The worst is could be is that Corbyn is proved to have been in the pay of a hostile nation and has to resign... As numerous people have pointed out, Labour might well do better with an alternative leader, so maybe that's not something Tory PBers should wish for?

I very much doubt that's where this story will end up however.

So, Tory PBers should keep quiet and risk having a PM who owed (owes?) allegiance to some other state than the UK - because we might get somebody as Labour leader who is more effective - somebody who owes allegiance to the UK?

Well, its a view....

Corbyn's back story is why PB Tories couldn't wait to shell out their £3 to elect the unelectable idiot.

It is therefore disingenuous to feign shock and surprise when the reasons for electing him leader are confirmed.

The Tory 'three quidders' helped create this monster - they have to live with the consequences. I voted for Liz Kendall. So 'not guilty m'lud'!

Charles

Theuniondivvie said:

ExiledInScotland said:

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Barnesian said:

Cognitive dissonance is the most powerful force in the universe.

Spot on. Previous generations had common experiences that tied them together across and within those generations - wars provided a semblance of us vs. them, and education based on British history, literature and the values of the enlightenment provided some inoculation against stupidity. My parents can spot Fake News a mile off, but my youngest daughter believes everything she sees on Youtube.

Now we have tinkered with education to remove the swathe of history and core literature, which means that kids cannot understand or connect with the.us or our parents - I live in Scotland where my kids (at a good school) only studied the Scottish Wars of Independence (guess who from?), the Jacobites (again, nasty English), the abolition of Slavery (good, but...) and WW2 (from a home front perspective). They have no real understanding of who they should be because they don't know where they come from. I genuinely despair.

And don't accuse me of being a little Englander or some British supremacist - I don't view history through rose coloured glasses. My core point is the famous saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Things have changed since my day. History from primary school to higher grade was Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Tudors, a bit of (English) civil war, the Industrial Revolution, 19thC UK (the Corn Laws are forever etched on my heart). Not a sniff of specific Scottish history.

How much of its own history do you think a country with its own education system should teach? If you were ExiedInEire how would you expect their schools to teach your kids who they should be and where they come from?

I would go with history of the UK with some modules either on Scottish specific items and/or with a Scottish focus.

There are certainly elements of “Scottish” history (say the Jacobite rebellions or the Clearances) that are worthy of study in their own right.

There are others, say the Industrial Revolution, where there’s an overarching national theme to it which should form the backbone but in the detail I could see focusing on Glasgow rather than, say, Manchester would be more compelling for kids.

In other areas, though, even if it is strictly “English” rather than “Scottish” history (such as the Romans or the Tudors) there are subjects that deserve a place in the curriculum in their own right. I’d argue that they are more relevant to a Scottish kid than the doings of King David or Malcolm Canmore