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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Get ready for one of the biggest local by-election nights in y

SystemSystem Posts: 11,694
edited February 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Get ready for one of the biggest local by-election nights in years

Big night of local elections in prospect. 14 seats with nearly 90k eligible to vote. Excellent here from @andrewteale https://t.co/AyLxTgrRGX

Read the full story here


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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    edited February 2018
    1st unlike the turnout in Grassmoor tonight.

    Will be surprised if its even 25%

    Could be bad news for Lab Candidate
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    If we called them "special elections", as in the US, might it encourage more people to vote?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Blue dawn? :D
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    Super Thursday!
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    Wouldnt be a complete surprise to me if LDs do well in Grassmoor tonight
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321

    Wouldnt be a complete surprise to me if LDs do well in Grassmoor tonight

    They might be doing better if they took more grass.

    It would go some way to dispelling their rather boring image for a start.
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    Re National Service.

    It’s a really bad idea I mean the French are trying to bring it back.

    French president Emmanuel Macron to bring back compulsory military service for young people

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-national-service-emmanuel-macron-french-president-military-a8209681.html?amp
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    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    Reading the details, one by-election caused by a councillor convicted for attacking his wife with a hammer, one convicted for carrying a knife in public....that might have an effect!
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Notice how tax rises most favoured by those least likely to pay it.....
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,992
    Will be interesting to see the results in Northants. Not holding my breath for anything other than a Con. win, despite recent proof of sub-optimal competence.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,106
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    edited February 2018
    Looks like a decent range of targets for the LibDems: hard to see anyone else making many gains from that selection.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    FPT

    HHemmelig said:



    >Arguably the main reason it was abolished was that the military resented having to babysit the entire population of male 18 year olds, most of whom didn't want to be there, it was a big distraction for them and not very useful outside wartime.<

    That was certainly the view of my cousin, who was Deputy Chief of General Staff, responsible for personnel issues. He told me a while ago (no reason to think he's changed his views) that he thought that military service ran out just as he conscripts started to become useful, and if the purpose was some sort of social engineering, he didn't see why the Army should be asked to take that role instead of concentrating on defending the country.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,867

    FPT

    HHemmelig said:



    >Arguably the main reason it was abolished was that the military resented having to babysit the entire population of male 18 year olds, most of whom didn't want to be there, it was a big distraction for them and not very useful outside wartime.<

    That was certainly the view of my cousin, who was Deputy Chief of General Staff, responsible for personnel issues. He told me a while ago (no reason to think he's changed his views) that he thought that military service ran out just as he conscripts started to become useful, and if the purpose was some sort of social engineering, he didn't see why the Army should be asked to take that role instead of concentrating on defending the country.

    National Service makes no sense unless you're fighting someone. Lots of recruits enjoy warfare, but find peacetime service a complete waste.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,657
    Perhaps the Kippers can surprise us all and hold a seat tonight.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,867
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    A lot of people seem to think that upper middle class pensioners are representative of their entire age cohort.

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    dodradedodrade Posts: 595

    Re National Service.

    It’s a really bad idea I mean the French are trying to bring it back.

    French president Emmanuel Macron to bring back compulsory military service for young people

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-national-service-emmanuel-macron-french-president-military-a8209681.html?amp

    A month's service seems entirely pointless.
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    These days the armed forces are a series of highly connected high-tech industries, not a bunch of squaddies marching up and down. The average teenager is no use to the military whatsoever.
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    My Dad was a regular in the Army in the 1950s. He always said the national service boys got in the way.

    That so many old folk want to bring it back is just another example of the nostalgia that currently guides our political discourse. From bucaneering Britain to nationalisation, we are looking backwards, not to the future. Coming next, a return to 240 pennies, 20 shillings, in a pound.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    These days the armed forces are a series of highly connected high-tech industries, not a bunch of squaddies marching up and down. The average teenager is no use to the military whatsoever.

    Yes, the sooner teenagers can be replaced by robots the better.
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    dodrade said:

    Re National Service.

    It’s a really bad idea I mean the French are trying to bring it back.

    French president Emmanuel Macron to bring back compulsory military service for young people

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-national-service-emmanuel-macron-french-president-military-a8209681.html?amp

    A month's service seems entirely pointless.
    French military brilliance in all its glory.

    I suspect the reality is it takes a month to teach them how to surrender correctly.
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    My Dad was a regular in the Army in the 1950s. He always said the national service boys got in the way.

    That so many old folk want to bring it back is just another example of the nostalgia that currently guides our political discourse. From bucaneering Britain to nationalisation, we are looking backwards, not to the future. Coming next, a return to 240 pennies, 20 shillings, in a pound.

    Just for accuracy was the poll for bringing back national service or for only one month as some say
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    These days the armed forces are a series of highly connected high-tech industries, not a bunch of squaddies marching up and down. The average teenager is no use to the military whatsoever.

    Au contraire, they will all be combat ready from day 1, after all that Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare practice.
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    Yup. He doesn’t posses the intelligence and influence of the Cambridge Five.

    The Soviets went for the cream of the crop, the Czechs went for the dregs.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Well, if he was recruited as a long-term "sleeper" kind of asset, that turns out to have been rather a good call.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,848

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited February 2018
    Collecting intelligence ecompasses a lot more than discovering classified information, private information is often even more useful than things that are notionally secret. The rumoured "pee tape" isn't classified information, but if it's real it gives the Russians huge leverage over the President. Which is why politicians of all stripes should be very careful about who they gossip with.

    Incidentally this is also why a Secretary of State having a private email server run by a guy who goes to reddit for technical support is a very bad idea, even if there was no classified information in the emails.
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    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited February 2018

    My Dad was a regular in the Army in the 1950s. He always said the national service boys got in the way.

    That so many old folk want to bring it back is just another example of the nostalgia that currently guides our political discourse. From bucaneering Britain to nationalisation, we are looking backwards, not to the future. Coming next, a return to 240 pennies, 20 shillings, in a pound.

    My proposal would be for 24 pence to a shilling and 24 shillings to a pound. Also, rebase the currency so one new, King Charles, pound would be worth one hundred old, Queen Elizabeth, pounds.

    Base-24 arithmetic is so much more versatile than base-10.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,848

    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

    So they finished it around 1960?
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    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

    So they finished it around 1960?

    The last call-ups were then, I think.

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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,848

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

    So they finished it around 1960?

    The last call-ups were then, I think.

    Interesting. Thanks SO.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    And another one ;-)
    twitter.com/spajw/status/964250640976367616

    That, or it makes the Europeans British.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    glw said:

    Collecting intelligence ecompasses a lot more than discovering classified information, private information is often even more useful than things that are notionally secret. The rumoured "pee tape" isn't classified information, but if it's real it gives the Russians huge leverage over the President. Which is why politicians of all stripes should be very careful about who they gossip with.

    Incidentally this is also why a Secretary of State having a private email server run by a guy who goes to reddit for technical support is a very bad idea, even if there was no classified information in the emails.
    I was told once by someone in the business that intelligence gathering is like one of those games where you are trying to guess a picture as various random fragments spin in

    Unless you know exactly what information the other side has even what you may think is innocuous gossip may be the critical missing piece of insight that reveals everything
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2018
    An Oxfam worker fired over sexual misconduct allegations in Haiti was rehired later the same year by the charity.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43079090
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
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    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

    So they finished it around 1960?
    I missed it by a couple of years
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    RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    Gossip has always been useful blackmail material.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    Re National Service.

    It’s a really bad idea I mean the French are trying to bring it back.

    French president Emmanuel Macron to bring back compulsory military service for young people

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-national-service-emmanuel-macron-french-president-military-a8209681.html?amp

    Ah, that'll be why the survey I completed mentioned it being a month's service then
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,762
    edited February 2018
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Well, if he was recruited as a long-term "sleeper" kind of asset, that turns out to have been rather a good call.
    Nah. The Warsaw Pact boys were just as incompetent as our lot. It was easier for a timeserver in the Czech agency to pretend Corbyn was hot property than to find someone who might do some actual spying.

    Edit. I have always wondered about the East German sleeper agent who became Willi Brandt's secretary. How would they be able to plan that?
    Supposing he ended up as a functionary in the Ministry for postage stamps?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    If we called them "special elections", as in the US, might it encourage more people to vote?

    Is turnout at 'special elections' in the US better than here then?
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    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited February 2018
    https://twitter.com/dannythefink/status/964209634016989184

    Also interesting to see Diane James’ views on this given that she was once a Ukipper. https://twitter.com/dianejamesmep/status/964081643781701634
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
    While the three examples given of our difference from the USA are ones I certainly appreciate, it does seem people can easily make the opposite argument by selecting different things. It seems pretty reasonable that we might be very foreign from either option in some things, and very close in others - how is one to entirely judge overall foreigness in that case?
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    kle4 said:

    If we called them "special elections", as in the US, might it encourage more people to vote?

    Is turnout at 'special elections' in the US better than here then?
    I don't know, but advertising slogans are known to work and turnout in the US would arguably be lower if they used the term "by-election".
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    I think before people start on with the outrage a little more detail on what is meant by such service would be helpful, frankly. If the question I saw was the one for this poll there was virtually no detail at all so the phrase could have meant almost anything.
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    kle4 said:

    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
    While the three examples given of our difference from the USA are ones I certainly appreciate, it does seem people can easily make the opposite argument by selecting different things. It seems pretty reasonable that we might be very foreign from either option in some things, and very close in others - how is one to entirely judge overall foreigness in that case?

    When I first visited the US it was by far the most foreign place I’d ever been to. All the points of reference were different. Even something as mundane as tipping - just totally different. I understand how it all works a lot better now, but it is still the only country I go to where I feel European.

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    kle4 said:

    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
    While the three examples given of our difference from the USA are ones I certainly appreciate, it does seem people can easily make the opposite argument by selecting different things. It seems pretty reasonable that we might be very foreign from either option in some things, and very close in others - how is one to entirely judge overall foreigness in that case?

    When I first visited the US it was by far the most foreign place I’d ever been to.
    Try Yemen...

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    kle4 said:

    I think before people start on with the outrage a little more detail on what is meant by such service would be helpful, frankly. If the question I saw was the one for this poll there was virtually no detail at all so the phrase could have meant almost anything.
    Old people have discovered trolling, Danny.....
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    kle4 said:

    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
    While the three examples given of our difference from the USA are ones I certainly appreciate, it does seem people can easily make the opposite argument by selecting different things. It seems pretty reasonable that we might be very foreign from either option in some things, and very close in others - how is one to entirely judge overall foreigness in that case?
    In two ways. In the first place by taking rather more time and space than is available on twitter or blog comments, quite possibly with the aid of a variety of alcoholic beverages.

    And secondly by rejecting the notion that we have to make the distinction at all. Our membership of the European Union has very little to do with whether we are more European or American, and much more about how best we co-operate with friendly countries, and assert our sense of collective self.

    This is not something, I think, to which there is a right answer, as you might think there would be to the question of whether we are more American or European (which appeals to metrological ideas of their existing scales of Europeaness or Americaness against which we might measure ourselves), but different answers that need to be understood.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,867

    Yup. He doesn’t posses the intelligence and influence of the Cambridge Five.

    The Soviets went for the cream of the crop, the Czechs went for the dregs.
    Ray Mawby and Tom Driberg.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,848

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

    So they finished it around 1960?
    I missed it by a couple of years
    Do you regret missing it Big G?
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    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Notice how compulsory military service most favoured by those least likely to be called up

    Did you do national service Mike? Or did you just miss it?

    I think my late uncle - born in 1939 - was from the last national service intake.

    So they finished it around 1960?
    I missed it by a couple of years
    Do you regret missing it Big G?
    I remember at the time the feeling was one of great relief as I could follow a career without interuption
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    Well the no guns comment is bollocks for a start. Indeed the UK is very unusual compared to both the US and large part of Europe regarding guns.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,019
    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

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    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    What the Shackletons
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    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
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    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    Not sure it is necessary to make it military service, but certainly given a choice between British, French and Norwegian trainees when I was working offshore I would always chose the French or Norwegians because they had done national service and had the ability to actually think and act as well as being willing to get their hands dirty. British graduates were almost entirely an utter waste of time and effort unless they had done some other manual job first.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    lower than many developing countries and far lower than every developed country.

    Liberal bucaneering Britain for the few, not the many.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    Certainly the taxpayer can only afford to fund 10% going to university
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,916

    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    What the Shackletons
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Shackleton
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,019

    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    What the Shackletons
    Infuriatingly unreliable four (and occasionally six) engined maritime patrol aircraft.
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    What the Shackletons
    Infuriatingly unreliable four (and occasionally six) engined maritime patrol aircraft.
    I know - I loved to hear the engines of both the Shackletons and Lancasters. They were very familiar sounds to me
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    lower than many developing countries and far lower than every developed country.

    Liberal bucaneering Britain for the few, not the many.
    We are doing absolutely no favours turning out large numbers of graduates with worthless degrees, devaluing the whole process and at the same time racking up vast amounts of debt for them. We have used the increase in University entrants simply as a means to delay having to find jobs for them whilst filling their heads with false hope about the value of the education they are getting. They are no more fit for employment the day they leave University than they were the day the started.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,997
    Three Labour holds and one Tory hold so far.
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    What the Shackletons
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Shackleton
    My question was did the baboons etc steal the shackletons not what was a shackleton as I am very familiar with both the shackletons and lancasters. Indeed many of my sporting partners in the 60's had piloted them
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
    While the three examples given of our difference from the USA are ones I certainly appreciate, it does seem people can easily make the opposite argument by selecting different things. It seems pretty reasonable that we might be very foreign from either option in some things, and very close in others - how is one to entirely judge overall foreigness in that case?

    When I first visited the US it was by far the most foreign place I’d ever been to. All the points of reference were different. Even something as mundane as tipping - just totally different. I understand how it all works a lot better now, but it is still the only country I go to where I feel European.

    My experience has been exactly the opposite and I feel far more at home in North America than I do anywhere in continental Europe.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,019

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    GIN1138 said:



    Do you regret missing it Big G?

    One one hand...

    “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea.” Samuel Johnson

    On the other hand my father was one of the last to do National Service and he hated it. Mind you, he was in the RAF and posted to Khormaksar where his responsibilities in that fly blown hole was to supervise the positioning of drip trays under Shackletons from whence they would occasionally be stolen by the locals or hamadryas baboons.

    What the Shackletons
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Shackleton
    My question was did the baboons etc steal the shackletons not what was a shackleton as I am very familiar with both the shackletons and lancasters. Indeed many of my sporting partners in the 60's had piloted them
    No, the baboons stole the drip trays for purposes unknown.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    Good day for the Lib Dems...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    edited February 2018

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    lower than many developing countries and far lower than every developed country.

    Liberal bucaneering Britain for the few, not the many.
    We are doing absolutely no favours turning out large numbers of graduates with worthless degrees, devaluing the whole process and at the same time racking up vast amounts of debt for them. We have used the increase in University entrants simply as a means to delay having to find jobs for them whilst filling their heads with false hope about the value of the education they are getting. They are no more fit for employment the day they leave University than they were the day the started.
    That is an argument to improve our sub par universities up to rest of world standards, rather than to not educate our youngsters for the modern world.

    Name an economically succesful developed country where only 10% are educated to degree level.

    Even China, India and SouthSAfrica have more than 101 educatedeto tertiary level:

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-with-best-education-systems/
  • Options

    Good day for the Lib Dems...

    Fairly predictable
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    lower than many developing countries and far lower than every developed country.

    Liberal bucaneering Britain for the few, not the many.
    Oh and as it stands our Tertiary education rate is higher than every other country in Europe with the exception of Luxembourg. Yet it is not doing us any favours at all. .
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    Certainly the taxpayer can only afford to fund 10% going to university
    Was only 5% in my day, in the 1960s.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097
    edited February 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    Certainly the taxpayer can only afford to fund 10% going to university
    Was only 5% in my day, in the 1960s.
    Depends if you count the plateglass universities like York, Warwick, Sussex, Essex, Kent, UEA, Bath, Lancaster etc which were all founded in the 1960s
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,916
    HYUFD said:
    The Alan Partridge vote gets crazier every year... :)
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    Certainly the taxpayer can only afford to fund 10% going to university
    Was only 5% in my day, in the 1960s.
    Send them up the chimneys or into the navy, like the good old days.
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    You could as easily say that the English language, common law, the first past the post electoral system and not being conquered by a neighbouring country for at least 235 years, makes the British more American than European.
    While the three examples given of our difference from the USA are ones I certainly appreciate, it does seem people can easily make the opposite argument by selecting different things. It seems pretty reasonable that we might be very foreign from either option in some things, and very close in others - how is one to entirely judge overall foreigness in that case?

    When I first visited the US it was by far the most foreign place I’d ever been to. All the points of reference were different. Even something as mundane as tipping - just totally different. I understand how it all works a lot better now, but it is still the only country I go to where I feel European.


    Wales?
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    That is an argument to improve our sub par universities up to rest of world standards, rather than to not educate our youngsters for the modern world.

    Name an economically succesful developed country where only 10% are educated to degree level.

    Even China, India and SouthSAfrica have more than 101 educatedeto tertiary level:

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-with-best-education-systems/

    Well it was us until we started wrecking it all in the 90s.

    We currently have 42% of 25-64 year olds with tertiary qualifications. France has 32%. Germany has 27%. Italy has 17%. What benefits are we as a country or the graduates themselves gaining from such high levels of tertiary qualification? It is idiotic and costs a fortune for no national benefit.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    Good day for the Lib Dems...

    Fairly predictable
    Preparation for government intensifies....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:
    The Alan Partridge vote gets crazier every year... :)
    Mind you that is in Norman Lamb's constituency
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097
    edited February 2018
    RobD said:

    Good day for the Lib Dems...

    Fairly predictable
    Preparation for government intensifies....
    I expect OGH is writing tonight's LD by election surge threads for tomorrow as we speak......
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,867
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: in response to @HHemmelig

    “Those born in the late 50s or early 60s are likely to have made a lot of money on their house, have a final salary pension, and a completely free higher education (for the lucky few who went to university). That's largesse compared with younger generations.”

    Agree on the first point, in some parts of the country.

    Not so on the second - many of this generation have pensions which are based on contributions rather than defined benefits, unless they are in the public sector. So very dependant on the performance of the economy. Private employers started moving out of final salary pensions some time ago.

    On your third point, the key words are “the lucky few”.

    Certainly better off than many. But not quite the largesse that was being described. It is not this generation which has benefited from the triple lock, fuel allowances and free TV licences etc etc.

    And if you have family you are having to help them with university costs, housing etc.

    Exactly, barely 10% went to university 50 years ago and of course if you reduce pensioners' assets you in turn reduce the amount their grandchildren will inherit to help with deposits to get on the property ladder, university costs etc
    And we should go back to 10% going to university again.
    lower than many developing countries and far lower than every developed country.

    Liberal bucaneering Britain for the few, not the many.
    We are doing absolutely no favours turning out large numbers of graduates with worthless degrees, devaluing the whole process and at the same time racking up vast amounts of debt for them. We have used the increase in University entrants simply as a means to delay having to find jobs for them whilst filling their heads with false hope about the value of the education they are getting. They are no more fit for employment the day they leave University than they were the day the started.
    That is an argument to improve our sub par universities up to rest of world standards, rather than to not educate our youngsters for the modern world.

    Name an economically succesful developed country where only 10% are educated to degree level.

    Even China, India and SouthSAfrica have more than 101 educatedeto tertiary level:

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-with-best-education-systems/
    Our sub-par universities are at rest of the world standards. Worldwide, there are lots of poor universities.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    edited February 2018

    Foxy said:

    That is an argument to improve our sub par universities up to rest of world standards, rather than to not educate our youngsters for the modern world.

    Name an economically succesful developed country where only 10% are educated to degree level.

    Even China, India and SouthSAfrica have more than 101 educatedeto tertiary level:

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-with-best-education-systems/

    Well it was us until we started wrecking it all in the 90s.

    We currently have 42% of 25-64 year olds with tertiary qualifications. France has 32%. Germany has 27%. Italy has 17%. What benefits are we as a country or the graduates themselves gaining from such high levels of tertiary qualification? It is idiotic and costs a fortune for no national benefit.
    Canada, USA, Japan and South Korea all have higher numbers.

    The problem is the pisspoor nature of many courses and institutions not the innate stupidity of Britons.

This discussion has been closed.