Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On the biggest current political betting market Trump now give

SystemSystem Posts: 11,693
edited February 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On the biggest current political betting market Trump now given a 64% chance of survival

With all the focus on Brexit and Theresa May’s survival in the UK it is sometimes easy to forget that from a political betting point of view the big markets are in the US and particularly on whether Donald Trump survives his first term.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited February 2018
    1st

    Unlike Boris, JRM, DD, Mrs May...
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    2nd - Like Remain :(
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    FF43 said:

    The two sides are entrenched and a sort of equilibrium has emerged and it will persist until something external perturbs it. If another EU country exited or if some company laid off thousands of workers because of Brexit then movement of some sort will happen.

    My money is rather simply on industry wondering what the heck it is going to do in 2019. There is absolutely sod-all guidance from the politicians and so industrial and investment decisions will have to be made in that vacuum.

    It is a shambles, but without a major event pointing the finger clearly at Brexit or the EU, this stasis will continue.

    As I said last night, investment is diverting from the UK to the continent on a big scale. Foreign Direct Investment in 2017 was one tenth that of 2016. Idiot Liam Fox was bragging about FDIs, claiming it was a record-breaking year in 2017. Investment in motor manufacturing is down to less than a half over two years and these are supposedly boom times. Andreas Drombet the Bundesbank chief who was all for keeping the City in the European system for continuity has now given up and told banks based in Britain just get it over with and move to the rEU. There's no point hanging on.

    Well, if what you say is correct then the money is drying up for the UK branches of foreign companies and eventually they are going to have to downsize or close. Once the money goes, what choice do they have?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    edited February 2018
    I did waver briefly when Mike Flynn was plead guilty.

    But I'm sticking to my long term prediction, there'll never 67 Senators to vote to convict, the GOP are way too complicit in this now.

    He's more of an actuarial risk.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Fifth. Very nice with chipth.
  • Options

    I did waver briefly when Mike Flynn was plead guilty.

    But I'm sticking to my long term prediction, there'll never 67 Senators to vote to convict, the GOP are way too complicit in this now.

    He's more of an actuarial risk.

    I'm not even sure the *Democrats* will really want to impeach him. If he hasn't blown up the world in his first two years he probably won't in his last two. Aside from that, there are nothing but tactical downsides:

    * Give the GOP a better candidate for next time
    * Rile up the GOP base
    * Feed an enduring conspiracy theory, and probably domestic terrorism
    * Set a precedent that risks getting the next Dem president impeached in revenge
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    Yes, I think Trump has steadied the ship, and it'd take a smoking gun that really upset GOP congress members to change that (and it's hard to think what they'd not swallow after what they've alreafy decided to live with). His ratings are poor but not awful - typically -5 to -10 now.

    That said, his scope to appeal to bring back currently hostile voters looks really weak: there are an awful lot of people who just can't stand him. So although I don't see him being impeached I'm sceptical that he'll be re-elected.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    Never mind surviving his first term, Trump may win a second term too if the Democrats nominate Warren in 2020 which is a serious possibility. If, as is likely, the Democrats win the House next year they may go overboard on impeachment efforts which simply serve to rally Trump's base rather than force him from office
  • Options
    It's odd that the market has turned before Donald Trump has reached his point of maximum danger. Though I have always been of the view that he was very likely to survive.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,655
    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    Pleased I’m on Trump surviving at odds against.
  • Options
    stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    This will depend on how the Democrats do in November and whether Trump gives them an opportunity, some Smoking Gun moment to make an impeachment attempt irresistable.

    Trump cannot win a second term on his base alone. He didnt win the popular vote for his first term. Whether Trump wins a second term depends whether the Democrats field a credible candidate. So many variables.

    Although there is a comparison between Trump and Nixon, hatred for Nixon by the east coast establishment went back to the 1940s. Nixon was impeached more because of Hiss than because of Watergate. Trump doesnt have that backstory. Personally I dont see him surviving until 2024. Perhaps he will have a heart attack and die.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    USA USA USA
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    You get to pay the tariff differential.
  • Options

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    You’ll have to pay the differential costs post Brexit.

    Think of it as them taking back control.

    At least you’ll have a blue passport.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,655

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    You’ll have to pay the differential costs post Brexit.

    Think of it as them taking back control.

    At least you’ll have a blue passport.
    So they will be really pleased if as a result we choose their UK based competitor. Sounds like they need to be lobbying for a Free Trade Agreement.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Much higher and I think I’ll start betting on him going.
    Trump is safe for this year - but I think Dems will go for it after the mid terms.

    Can they get roughly 17 Republican senators to turn? Unlikely but far from impossible I think.
    I am confident Mueller will have enough evidence - it’s just whether anyone wants to hear it/cares...
  • Options

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    You’ll have to pay the differential costs post Brexit.

    Think of it as them taking back control.

    At least you’ll have a blue passport.
    So they will be really pleased if as a result we choose their UK based competitor. Sounds like they need to be lobbying for a Free Trade Agreement.
    Why aren't you already using their UK based competitor?

    I think we know the answer, you're a traitor.
  • Options

    Yes, I think Trump has steadied the ship, and it'd take a smoking gun that really upset GOP congress members to change that (and it's hard to think what they'd not swallow after what they've alreafy decided to live with). His ratings are poor but not awful - typically -5 to -10 now.

    That said, his scope to appeal to bring back currently hostile voters looks really weak: there are an awful lot of people who just can't stand him. So although I don't see him being impeached I'm sceptical that he'll be re-elected.

    Arguably John Kelly has steadied the ship, not Trump. The loss of Bannon being a prime example. But Kelly may be in trouble.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    FF43 said:

    The two sides are entrenched and a sort of equilibrium has emerged and it will persist until something external perturbs it. If another EU country exited or if some company laid off thousands of workers because of Brexit then movement of some sort will happen.

    My money is rather simply on industry wondering what the heck it is going to do in 2019. There is absolutely sod-all guidance from the politicians and so industrial and investment decisions will have to be made in that vacuum.

    It is a shambles, but without a major event pointing the finger clearly at Brexit or the EU, this stasis will continue.

    As I said last night, investment is diverting from the UK to the continent on a big scale. Foreign Direct Investment in 2017 was one tenth that of 2016. Idiot Liam Fox was bragging about FDIs, claiming it was a record-breaking year in 2017. Investment in motor manufacturing is down to less than a half over two years and these are supposedly boom times. Andreas Drombet the Bundesbank chief who was all for keeping the City in the European system for continuity has now given up and told banks based in Britain just get it over with and move to the rEU. There's no point hanging on.

    Well, if what you say is correct then the money is drying up for the UK branches of foreign companies and eventually they are going to have to downsize or close. Once the money goes, what choice do they have?
    Not quite as simple as that.
    86% of the 2016 figure consisted of the Anheuser-Busch purchase of SABMiller (London listed, but not exactly a British company), and SoftBank's purchase of ARM.

    Excluding those, the drop was more in the order of 30%; keeping the ARM deal in the 2016 figure, as it was a genuine investment in the UK, about 70%.

    Motor vehicles and banking investments are obviously suffering from the procrastination/uncertainty on the part of our government.
  • Options
    It is very odd that the newspapers have been gunning for Oxfam all week at the same time that football clubs seem to have shown far more serious systemic failings in the way in which they have handled concerns about abuse.
  • Options
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,655

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    You’ll have to pay the differential costs post Brexit.

    Think of it as them taking back control.

    At least you’ll have a blue passport.
    So they will be really pleased if as a result we choose their UK based competitor. Sounds like they need to be lobbying for a Free Trade Agreement.
    Why aren't you already using their UK based competitor?

    I think we know the answer, you're a traitor.
    EU anti-protectionism legislation. The same legislation that means we have trains built in Germany or Spain rather than Derby.
  • Options

    It is very odd that the newspapers have been gunning for Oxfam all week at the same time that football clubs seem to have shown far more serious systemic failings in the way in which they have handled concerns about abuse.

    I still can't get over the fact that four people coached by Barry Bennell eventually committed suicide.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    It is very odd that the newspapers have been gunning for Oxfam all week at the same time that football clubs seem to have shown far more serious systemic failings in the way in which they have handled concerns about abuse.

    Well to an extent...

    It does seems 2 football clubs (so far - more trials start soon north of the border) have issues with one coach but it wasn't recent history and neither is or has been recipient of large amount of taxpayer funds and aren't setting themselves up as a paragon of virtue.

    The England case is a lone individual (or so we know so far). Scottish case may involve a larger amount of individuals.

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    Can't see it getting through the Lords either.

    Looks like George is backing another losing cause.
  • Options
    TGOHF said:

    It is very odd that the newspapers have been gunning for Oxfam all week at the same time that football clubs seem to have shown far more serious systemic failings in the way in which they have handled concerns about abuse.

    Well to an extent...

    It does seems 2 football clubs (so far - more trials start soon north of the border) have issues with one coach but it wasn't recent history and neither is or has been recipient of large amount of taxpayer funds and aren't setting themselves up as a paragon of virtue.

    The England case is a lone individual (or so we know so far). Scottish case may involve a larger amount of individuals.

    One lone individual?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_football_sexual_abuse_scandal
  • Options
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    Can't see it getting through the Lords either.

    Looks like George is backing another losing cause.
    It'll sail through the Lords, there's enough Labour and Lib Dem peers to make sure of that.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    TGOHF said:

    It is very odd that the newspapers have been gunning for Oxfam all week at the same time that football clubs seem to have shown far more serious systemic failings in the way in which they have handled concerns about abuse.

    Well to an extent...

    It does seems 2 football clubs (so far - more trials start soon north of the border) have issues with one coach but it wasn't recent history and neither is or has been recipient of large amount of taxpayer funds and aren't setting themselves up as a paragon of virtue.

    The England case is a lone individual (or so we know so far). Scottish case may involve a larger amount of individuals.

    Main paragraph. Well...that makes it alright then.Ffs!
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    It is very odd that the newspapers have been gunning for Oxfam all week at the same time that football clubs seem to have shown far more serious systemic failings in the way in which they have handled concerns about abuse.

    Well to an extent...

    It does seems 2 football clubs (so far - more trials start soon north of the border) have issues with one coach but it wasn't recent history and neither is or has been recipient of large amount of taxpayer funds and aren't setting themselves up as a paragon of virtue.

    The England case is a lone individual (or so we know so far). Scottish case may involve a larger amount of individuals.

    One lone individual?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_football_sexual_abuse_scandal
    "so far " - a lot of trials coming this year...
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,548
    Depends on your view of whether high print circulation is a good thing. I've had enough of papers of all stripes making the news rather than reporting it, or deciding that their values are all that needs to be said.

    If the influence of the key media players is waning, bad news for them but I think the country can live with it.
  • Options
    I'm fully invested in the impeachment, not the conviction. Still 4/1 that he is impeached next year...

    https://www.paddypower.com/politics
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,548

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    Can't see it getting through the Lords either.

    Looks like George is backing another losing cause.
    It'll sail through the Lords, there's enough Labour and Lib Dem peers to make sure of that.
    Yes I agree. Assuming that Theresa dithers as usual, I wonder if there's an enterprising MP who does well in the next Private Members' Ballot who would take up the cause. It may just get through.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,856

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Once the remainers work out it doesn't matter/too late, the votes for 16yo's will fall off the agenda.

  • Options
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Options
    I've just had a tooth out. Feeling very sorry for myself
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,655
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    16 is the age of consent. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable for 16 and 17 year olds to get shafted by the government, same as the rest of us.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland and Cuba. They can't have it both ways.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,720

    I've just had a tooth out. Feeling very sorry for myself

    Never mind - put it under the pillow and you'll get a sixpence :smile:
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,548

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland, Cuba and Vietnam. They can't have it both ways.
    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    I'm fully invested in the impeachment, not the conviction. Still 4/1 that he is impeached next year...

    https://www.paddypower.com/politics

    Thanks for the tip. I’m on it now.
    I also put a bit on trump not to visit Russia in his first term at 4/6.
  • Options
    Off topic

    Breaking news - Archbishop Desmond Tutu quits Oxfam
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    I'm fully invested in the impeachment, not the conviction. Still 4/1 that he is impeached next year...

    https://www.paddypower.com/politics

    Thanks for the tip. I’m on it now.
    I also put a bit on trump not to visit Russia in his first term at 4/6.
    Does 'visit' as a term include when he visits his invading troops in St Petersberg?
  • Options
    Mr. Smithson, my sympathy. My mother's having some trouble with her teeth (she's had the first two in a set of four appointments).
  • Options

    I've just had a tooth out. Feeling very sorry for myself

    Never mind - put it under the pillow and you'll get a sixpence :smile:
    Think it is nearer a £2 coin today
  • Options

    Mr. Smithson, my sympathy. My mother's having some trouble with her teeth (she's had the first two in a set of four appointments).

    My wife is due an extraction next week
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2018
    tpfkar said:

    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.

    Very few 16- or 17-year olds pay any significant income tax, so it's not really an issue.

    I agree that it's not a one-age-fits-all thing, but to me the absolutely crucial comparison here is the one about signing binding contracts. That is quintessentially about being considered old enough to take responsibility; that should surely apply to voting as much as to contracts.
  • Options
    Mr. Nabavi, it's demented that politicians think 16 year olds are too young to leave school or get married without permission [in England], or use sunbeds [in Wales], but are old enough to vote.
  • Options
    Are these paid for or all copies?

    As I recall the FT in particular gives away/heavily discounts a surprising (until I thought about it) number of copies
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,856
    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland, Cuba and Vietnam. They can't have it both ways.
    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.
    How many 16 year olds pay income tax?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    Another government IT glitch! It shouldn't be on that .gov.uk page. I believe it is the official summary of Boris' speech from yesterday.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,655

    Off topic

    Breaking news - Archbishop Desmond Tutu quits Oxfam

    Now that they've put a stop to the sex parties. I see.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Sean_F said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland, Cuba and Vietnam. They can't have it both ways.
    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.
    How many 16 year olds pay income tax?
    A small number of child actors and actresses, and presumably also people who enter the armed forces at 16.

    In the old days, you could reach the threshold with holiday and weekend work, but now the first £11,500 is tax free it's almost impossible to get there.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,856

    Off topic

    Breaking news - Archbishop Desmond Tutu quits Oxfam

    Now that they've put a stop to the sex parties. I see.
    Yes, it is very suspicious.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    Scott_P said:
    Its an obvious point but it also shows what the government is missing. Fight the fights you can win and mitigate your losses where you can't. Politics 101.

    FWIW we had 16 year olds voting in the Indyref. I had tactical reservations at the start but by the end thought it was a good thing. My daughter, who was 17 at the time, was very active for Better Together and a very fine canvasser who could explain the pros and cons succinctly and effectively. It would have been ridiculous if she had been denied a vote at the end of it all. If we are going to have better choices for PM from either party in 20-25 years time we need many of the young to catch the politics bug and become engaged in the process.

  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    I've just had a tooth out. Feeling very sorry for myself

    Never mind - put it under the pillow and you'll get a sixpence :smile:
    Think it is nearer a £2 coin today
    Get with the times, it must be a BitCoin from the tooth fairy now.
  • Options

    I've just had a tooth out. Feeling very sorry for myself

    I'm not surprised. The charges last time I went shocked me.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    I'm getting people* abroad asking me if it is actually going to happen. Whatever you think about the merit of otherwise of Brexit, I think we can all agree that not appearing to know what we are doing has no upsides.

    * Actually it's only two people. But even so.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    I was definitely mature enough to vote at 15 and 11 months, just think where we could have been now with a second term of Major.
  • Options


    Very few 16- or 17-year olds pay any significant income tax, so it's not really an issue.

    I agree that it's not a one-age-fits-all thing, but to me the absolutely crucial comparison here is the one about signing binding contracts. That is quintessentially about being considered old enough to take responsibility; that should surely apply to voting as much as to contracts.

    Voting doesn't need a blanket rule like contracts because they'll tend to self-select: Most kids won't be interested in doing it, and the ones who are will be at the nerdy / well-informed end.

    The same doesn't apply to contracts because people don't sign contracts because they're totally fascinated by legal wording, they sign them because they'll get stuff.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    I'm getting people* abroad asking me if it is actually going to happen. Whatever you think about the merit of otherwise of Brexit, I think we can all agree that not appearing to know what we are doing has no upsides.

    * Actually it's only two people. But even so.
    But it is an easy question to answer.
    Yes it will happen. If they don't follow up and ask how/what/when etc you are OK.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland, Cuba and Vietnam. They can't have it both ways.
    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.
    How many 16 year olds pay income tax?
    A small number of child actors and actresses, and presumably also people who enter the armed forces at 16.

    In the old days, you could reach the threshold with holiday and weekend work, but now the first £11,500 is tax free it's almost impossible to get there.
    A 14 year old friend of my son at school made more than £10K last year reselling high fashion on E-bay. My son is actively researching the possibilities....
  • Options


    Very few 16- or 17-year olds pay any significant income tax, so it's not really an issue.

    I agree that it's not a one-age-fits-all thing, but to me the absolutely crucial comparison here is the one about signing binding contracts. That is quintessentially about being considered old enough to take responsibility; that should surely apply to voting as much as to contracts.

    Voting doesn't need a blanket rule like contracts because they'll tend to self-select: Most kids won't be interested in doing it, and the ones who are will be at the nerdy / well-informed end.

    The same doesn't apply to contracts because people don't sign contracts because they're totally fascinated by legal wording, they sign them because they'll get stuff.
    I think you've put your finger on exactly why 16-year olds shouldn't have the vote.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Pulpstar said:

    I was definitely mature enough to vote at 15 and 11 months, just think where we could have been now with a second term of Major.

    I'm not sure I'm well balanced and mature enough to vote yet. If I practice more I'll get the hang of it. I started voting in 1972 and I still can't put my X in the same place every time!
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited February 2018
    @hugorifkind: Gavin Williamson's attack on Corbyn is fascinating. Aimed squarely at people who are

    a) traditionally patriotic,
    b) likely to vote Labour,
    c) so far unaware of Corbyn's backstory, and
    d) give a shit what Gavin Williamson thinks.

    Who are they? Has anybody ever met one?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    Scott_P said:

    @hugorifkind: Gavin Williamson's attack on Corbyn is fascinating. Aimed squarely at people who are

    a) traditionally patriotic,
    b) likely to vote Labour,
    c) so far unaware of Corbyn's backstory, and
    d) give a shit what Gavin Williamson thinks.

    Who are they? Has anybody ever met one?

    d)'s a killer, isn't it?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    Sean_F said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland, Cuba and Vietnam. They can't have it both ways.
    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.
    How many 16 year olds pay income tax?
    Not sure what paying income tax has to do with whether someone gets to vote TBH. Plenty of oldies pay no income tax. Some millionaires pay no income tax. Plenty of immigrants pay income tax but dont get to vote.

    Universal suffrage has nothing to do with income.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    @hugorifkind: Gavin Williamson's attack on Corbyn is fascinating. Aimed squarely at people who are

    a) traditionally patriotic,
    b) likely to vote Labour,
    c) so far unaware of Corbyn's backstory, and
    d) give a shit what Gavin Williamson thinks.

    Who are they? Has anybody ever met one?

    @hugorifkind is quite wrong. It's aimed squarely at people who are

    a) Conservative party members
    b) who are likely to be voting in a leadership election contest sometime soon and
    c) who might be open to considering voting for a Defence Secretary who sticks it to Jeremy Corbyn on a subject Conservative party members feel strongly about.
  • Options


    Very few 16- or 17-year olds pay any significant income tax, so it's not really an issue.

    I agree that it's not a one-age-fits-all thing, but to me the absolutely crucial comparison here is the one about signing binding contracts. That is quintessentially about being considered old enough to take responsibility; that should surely apply to voting as much as to contracts.

    Voting doesn't need a blanket rule like contracts because they'll tend to self-select: Most kids won't be interested in doing it, and the ones who are will be at the nerdy / well-informed end.

    The same doesn't apply to contracts because people don't sign contracts because they're totally fascinated by legal wording, they sign them because they'll get stuff.
    I think you've put your finger on exactly why 16-year olds shouldn't have the vote.
    I we excluded voters who voted because "they'll get stuff" I'm not sure how much of an electorate we'd have left...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    Is the offer in pounds sterling from their UK based subsidiary?

    If it is from an EU-27 company directly, then it is irrelevant as the tariff would effectively be charged (to you) on top by HMRC following Brexit, if there is no trade agreement. (And the contract price to you would increase by the imposed tariff and there would be nothing you could do about it.)

    More of an issue for them (and perhaps the reason behind the clause), could be that whatever they make has substantial British components. If (say) 40% of the components of your widget come from the UK, then if there is no FTA, then their cost of manufacturing might rise significantly.

    Of course, you need to be mindful of the British competitors costs too, and also of any force majeure clauses in the contract. If a substantial portion of the costs of the widget come from the EU, or any of the 90-odd countries the EU has FTAs with, then it is possible the manufacturing costs for the widget will rise substantially for them. You don't want a situation where they break off the contract, or find themselves in financial trouble.

    Of course, in all likelihood there will be an FTA, and so these concerns are irrelevant, but I would be looking very hard at all contracts now, and potentially revising them to cover edge scenarios.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    Yes exactly, on both counts. Anyone who argues that a 16-year old is mature enough to be entrusted with a vote has to explain why a 16-year old isn't mature enough to enter into a binding financial contract, be sent into combat, buy a beer, get married without parental consent, and not to need special protection from sexual advances from those in positions of trust. Or, alternatively, they should argue that the age of majority should be 16, as is the case in a very few countries like Scotland, Cuba and Vietnam. They can't have it both ways.
    Interestingly you don't mention 'pay income tax.' For me it's the traditional taxation without representation conflict. There was an interesting (but almost certainly unworkable) suggestion that only those paying income tax should be able to vote, or a more workable one of exempting U-18s from income tax. Can't see the Government touching that though!

    I would disagree that there needs to be a one size fits all approach to adulthood however; for me the things you have mentioned such as going into combat and signing binding contracts are both more consequential than being allowed to vote so it makes sense for them to have a higher limit. However this whole debate is having to apply solid boundaries to the transition from childhood to adulthood which is a gradual process and varies greatly between individuals.
    How many 16 year olds pay income tax?
    A small number of child actors and actresses, and presumably also people who enter the armed forces at 16.

    In the old days, you could reach the threshold with holiday and weekend work, but now the first £11,500 is tax free it's almost impossible to get there.
    A 14 year old friend of my son at school made more than £10K last year reselling high fashion on E-bay. My son is actively researching the possibilities....
    How funny: my former colleague's 15 year old son did similar with trainers and eBay.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    On topic my bet is already placed that Trump will be re-elected. I am increasingly confident that its a winner.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    If 16 year olds are mature enough for the vote, why is education compulsory until the age of 18?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,758
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    Its an obvious point but it also shows what the government is missing. Fight the fights you can win and mitigate your losses where you can't. Politics 101.

    FWIW we had 16 year olds voting in the Indyref. I had tactical reservations at the start but by the end thought it was a good thing. My daughter, who was 17 at the time, was very active for Better Together and a very fine canvasser who could explain the pros and cons succinctly and effectively. It would have been ridiculous if she had been denied a vote at the end of it all. If we are going to have better choices for PM from either party in 20-25 years time we need many of the young to catch the politics bug and become engaged in the process.

    Votes at 16 are nearly uncontroversial in Scotland. Ruth Davidson argued strongly in favour in a Conservative party pamphlet. I was surprised at the universal reaction against on this board when I floated this thought a few months ago.
  • Options
    *sighs*

    I'm horrendous at making money. Ironically, gambling is the most financially 'sensible' thing I've done. Could do with a few more 250/1 winners, though...

    Oh, and The Last City, a sci-fi anthology with a story by me in it, is out today.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-City-Dust-Publishing-anthology-ebook/dp/B079JW6F6K/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    edited February 2018

    Trainers is one of the areas he is looking at but the margins seem higher for designer tops etc. He has also been tracking the resale price of an extra ticket that he has bought for a gig and analysed how such prices tend to start high, fall off and then rise again nearer the day as supply decreases. Next year he gets to sit his National 5 in economics. Think it might go ok.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,655
    rcs1000 said:

    Some of you might like this. Just received a quotation from a supplier from one of the other 27. They include the statement:

    "Our offer is based on the assumption that the UK is part of the European Union."

    Otherwise...?

    Is the offer in pounds sterling from their UK based subsidiary?

    If it is from an EU-27 company directly, then it is irrelevant as the tariff would effectively be charged (to you) on top by HMRC following Brexit, if there is no trade agreement. (And the contract price to you would increase by the imposed tariff and there would be nothing you could do about it.)

    More of an issue for them (and perhaps the reason behind the clause), could be that whatever they make has substantial British components. If (say) 40% of the components of your widget come from the UK, then if there is no FTA, then their cost of manufacturing might rise significantly.

    Of course, you need to be mindful of the British competitors costs too, and also of any force majeure clauses in the contract. If a substantial portion of the costs of the widget come from the EU, or any of the 90-odd countries the EU has FTAs with, then it is possible the manufacturing costs for the widget will rise substantially for them. You don't want a situation where they break off the contract, or find themselves in financial trouble.

    Of course, in all likelihood there will be an FTA, and so these concerns are irrelevant, but I would be looking very hard at all contracts now, and potentially revising them to cover edge scenarios.
    Thank you Mr S for your detailed response. I hadn't considered the point you make about their component costs increasing if their UK-sourced components become subject to an EU tariff. All the more reason why I agree with your view on the likelihood of an FTA.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    DavidL said:


    Trainers is one of the areas he is looking at but the margins seem higher for designer tops etc. He has also been tracking the resale price of an extra ticket that he has bought for a gig and analysed how such prices tend to start high, fall off and then rise again nearer the day as supply decreases. Next year he gets to sit his National 5 in economics. Think it might go ok.

    He might want to read this: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/11/10/363103753/textbook-arbitrage-making-money-off-used-books

    (And, indeed, he should listen to the podcast. It's pretty well made.)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    Its an obvious point but it also shows what the government is missing. Fight the fights you can win and mitigate your losses where you can't. Politics 101.

    FWIW we had 16 year olds voting in the Indyref. I had tactical reservations at the start but by the end thought it was a good thing. My daughter, who was 17 at the time, was very active for Better Together and a very fine canvasser who could explain the pros and cons succinctly and effectively. It would have been ridiculous if she had been denied a vote at the end of it all. If we are going to have better choices for PM from either party in 20-25 years time we need many of the young to catch the politics bug and become engaged in the process.

    Votes at 16 are nearly uncontroversial in Scotland. Ruth Davidson argued strongly in favour in a Conservative party pamphlet. I was surprised at the universal reaction against on this board when I floated this thought a few months ago.
    I can't have been on that day. I have been in favour since 2014.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    At a diplomatic reception in the capital of a large developing Commonwealth country, a conversation between a senior UK diplomat and 3 UK parliamentarians from different parties took place along the following lines:

    Diplomat: They’re very excited about Brexit here. Their eyes light up when you mention it.

    Why is that?

    They think we’ve neglected them. I’ve told them that we’ll now be able to focus more on them.

    How so? Aren’t we cutting staff at our non-European embassies at the moment?

    Yes, but the key thing is that we’ll be free to do trade deals!

    Don’t we have one now?

    Yes, through the EU, but now we’ll be able to offer them a bespoke deal.

    What will we be able to offer them, given that, as an LDC [Less Developed Country], they already have duty free and quota free access to our market?

    We can offer a bespoke deal when they graduate from LDC status to being a middle income country. Under EU rules, to keep access, they’ll have to follow all kinds of rules and red-tape. We can offer to scrap that.

    What kind of rules are you thinking of?

    International Labour Organisation [ILO] conventions that the EU insists on.

    So Britain would say “don’t worry about child labour, safety, rights at work, we’ll turn a blind eye to such matters?

    We’d say it’s up to them to choose which standards they want to apply. We won’t restrict their exports because of their choices.

    So you think they’d be happy to lower their standards, cease applying international norms, and thereby lose access to the EU market (which is their main export market) and to other markets, just because Britain says it won’t hold them to international rules?

    No, I’m saying that we’re free to make deals tailored to their needs.

    That’s the message being pushed by Britain?

    I’m a civil servant. I’m just explaining the options available to ministers. It will be their decision. But these options are always well received when I mention them here on private occasions like dinner parties.

    How long have you been posted here?

    Two and a half weeks.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    Its an obvious point but it also shows what the government is missing. Fight the fights you can win and mitigate your losses where you can't. Politics 101.

    FWIW we had 16 year olds voting in the Indyref. I had tactical reservations at the start but by the end thought it was a good thing. My daughter, who was 17 at the time, was very active for Better Together and a very fine canvasser who could explain the pros and cons succinctly and effectively. It would have been ridiculous if she had been denied a vote at the end of it all. If we are going to have better choices for PM from either party in 20-25 years time we need many of the young to catch the politics bug and become engaged in the process.

    Votes at 16 are nearly uncontroversial in Scotland. Ruth Davidson argued strongly in favour in a Conservative party pamphlet. I was surprised at the universal reaction against on this board when I floated this thought a few months ago.
    The argument is that there should be a single age of majority. It’s currently 18, and recent legislation has reinforced that age with regard to compulsory education, purchases of cigarettes, knives, certain sexual relationships...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:


    Trainers is one of the areas he is looking at but the margins seem higher for designer tops etc. He has also been tracking the resale price of an extra ticket that he has bought for a gig and analysed how such prices tend to start high, fall off and then rise again nearer the day as supply decreases. Next year he gets to sit his National 5 in economics. Think it might go ok.

    He might want to read this: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/11/10/363103753/textbook-arbitrage-making-money-off-used-books

    (And, indeed, he should listen to the podcast. It's pretty well made.)
    Thanks I'll pass it on. At the moment he is looking increasingly like my pension.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Yes, I think Trump has steadied the ship, and it'd take a smoking gun that really upset GOP congress members to change that (and it's hard to think what they'd not swallow after what they've alreafy decided to live with). His ratings are poor but not awful - typically -5 to -10 now.

    That said, his scope to appeal to bring back currently hostile voters looks really weak: there are an awful lot of people who just can't stand him. So although I don't see him being impeached I'm sceptical that he'll be re-elected.

    Arguably John Kelly has steadied the ship, not Trump. The loss of Bannon being a prime example. But Kelly may be in trouble.
    White House press secretary to Kelly; you're on your own explaining this mess...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/14/porter-scandal-white-house-sanders-trump-410797
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:


    Trainers is one of the areas he is looking at but the margins seem higher for designer tops etc. He has also been tracking the resale price of an extra ticket that he has bought for a gig and analysed how such prices tend to start high, fall off and then rise again nearer the day as supply decreases. Next year he gets to sit his National 5 in economics. Think it might go ok.

    He might want to read this: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/11/10/363103753/textbook-arbitrage-making-money-off-used-books

    (And, indeed, he should listen to the podcast. It's pretty well made.)
    Thanks I'll pass it on. At the moment he is looking increasingly like my pension.
    Underfunded?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:


    Trainers is one of the areas he is looking at but the margins seem higher for designer tops etc. He has also been tracking the resale price of an extra ticket that he has bought for a gig and analysed how such prices tend to start high, fall off and then rise again nearer the day as supply decreases. Next year he gets to sit his National 5 in economics. Think it might go ok.

    He might want to read this: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/11/10/363103753/textbook-arbitrage-making-money-off-used-books

    (And, indeed, he should listen to the podcast. It's pretty well made.)
    Thanks I'll pass it on. At the moment he is looking increasingly like my pension.
    Underfunded?
    LOL, exactly.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Scott_P said:

    @hugorifkind: Gavin Williamson's attack on Corbyn is fascinating. Aimed squarely at people who are

    a) traditionally patriotic,
    b) likely to vote Labour,
    c) so far unaware of Corbyn's backstory, and
    d) give a shit what Gavin Williamson thinks.

    Who are they? Has anybody ever met one?

    @hugorifkind is quite wrong. It's aimed squarely at people who are

    a) Conservative party members
    b) who are likely to be voting in a leadership election contest sometime soon and
    c) who might be open to considering voting for a Defence Secretary who sticks it to Jeremy Corbyn on a subject Conservative party members feel strongly about.
    Not entirely wrong - d) seems valid in either case.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    If 16 year olds are mature enough for the vote, why is education compulsory until the age of 18?

    To keep the unemployment figures down. It is not that long ago the school leaving age was 16 and before that 15.
  • Options
    TGOHF said:
    UKIP's share estimated at £200K, according to John Stevens. But if Ms Collins can't cough up all of her bit, does that mean UKIP are on the hook for even more?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    RobD said:

    If 16 year olds are mature enough for the vote, why is education compulsory until the age of 18?

    If 16 year olds cam vote they can also marry without parental consent, buy alcohol, drive a car and be tried in an adult court, which means changing other laws as well
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    edited February 2018

    RobD said:

    If 16 year olds are mature enough for the vote, why is education compulsory until the age of 18?

    To keep the unemployment figures down. It is not that long ago the school leaving age was 16 and before that 15.
    Though you can still work 20 hours a week or more while in part time education or do an apprenticeship from 16 to 18
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,758
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    The main argument for votes at 16 is that participation in formal democracy is learnt behaviour that far too few youngsters are adopting. There is an opportunity to "learn" to vote while in education. It doesn't of itself solve the problem of low participation, but it does make a difference and is worth doing. Any age cut off is arbitrary. 16 year olds are just as capable of making policy decisions as 18 year olds, but there is a good reason to set the cut off at the lower age.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    TGOHF said:
    UKIP's share estimated at £200K, according to John Stevens. But if Ms Collins can't cough up all of her bit, does that mean UKIP are on the hook for even more?
    Difficult to know, they haven't really chosen the most informative page of the Order to reproduce. At a guess, not initially, but the Ps could make a further application after trying and failing to nail Ms C.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,897
    edited February 2018
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Interesting. But is he right about the political implications? It might be 'back votes at 16 and get the blame from those who oppose this barmy idea, without getting the credit from those who support it'.
    It's seems logical to me that the age of voting should be aligned with the age of majority.

    The only counter-argument is that left wing parties hope to gain an advantage.
    The main argument for votes at 16 is that participation in formal democracy is learnt behaviour that far too few youngsters are adopting. There is an opportunity to "learn" to vote while in education. It doesn't of itself solve the problem of low participation, but it does make a difference and is worth doing. Any age cut off is arbitrary. 16 year olds are just as capable of making policy decisions as 18 year olds, but there is a good reason to set the cut off at the lower age.
    I'm unclear how lowering the age helps it become 'learned' behaviour any more than at 18, particularly given how many people are already in education until 18. I would also dispute that 16 years olds are just as capable as 18 years at making various decisions, since we don't trust 16 year olds to do any number of things because we don't think they are mature enough. So I don't quite see how it is certain that it will make a difference and be worth doing purely on that basis.

    However, it is already inconsistent (the army recruitment age being one commonly brought up) and in any case the point was conceded when 16 yr olds were allowed to vote in the SindyRef, so while my preference would be harmonising other things so they take place at 18, not 16, I think 16 is an inevitability at this point and not worth getting worked about.
This discussion has been closed.