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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s YouGov lead down to 8pc – but it is too early to say that it’s Philpott, welfare, Mrs Thatcher or just normal margin of error

Today’s YouGov daily poll has CON 33%: LAB 41%: LD 10%: Ukip 10%. So the numbers are almost back to where they were in the first survey after the Easter break – 33/41/9/10.

Read the full story here

JohnLoony

Oops! Caption describes Anne Scargill as "Widow of Arthur Scargill"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9981256/Anne-Scargill-Thatcher-was-an-evil-woman.html

TGOHF

Thanks for update John - was about to open the champers and head out looting....

SouthamObserver

It all looks like normal YouGov polling to me, but maybe I am missing something.

Financier

YouGov

Approval: -30 (+3).

Which of the following do you think are the
most important issues facing the country at this
time? Please tick up to three:

Economy: 77(0)
Immigration: 55 (+4)
Health : 31 (-3)
Europe: 21 (+4)

And which of the following do you think are the
most important issues facing you and your
family? Please tick up to three

Economy: 64(-2)
Health: 34 (-1)
Pensions: 30 (-2)
Tax: 29 (+2)
Immigration: 19 (+4)

Plato

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

Financier

YouGov

Scotland VI looks atypical:

Cons: 14; LAB: 35; LD: 24; SNP 17; UKIP: 9

Financier

Public anger at BBC bias:
Viewers hit out at lengthy coverage of poll tax and miners' strike after Baroness Thatcher's death

Viewers complain bulletins gave too great an emphasis to critics
Twitter users accuse BBC of 'shameless' bias against the former PM
One viewer said: 'You name the socialist, they've interviewed them'
Another said the coverage was 'an absolute Left-wing biased disgrace'

The BBC was accused of 'disgraceful' bias yesterday over its coverage of Baroness Thatcher's death.

Angry viewers complained its news bulletins gave too great an emphasis to her critics and to controversies such as the poll tax and the miners' strike.

Twitter users accused the BBC of 'shameless' bias against the former Prime Minister. The broadcaster also faced criticism because newsreaders did not wear black ties following the announcement of her death.

During her 11 years as Prime Minister, Lady Thatcher made clear her dislike of those running the BBC and complained about its 'Left-wing' bias.

In the hours following the announcement of her death, those feelings were echoed by many.

EF, London, declared: 'Shameless Marxist BBC, Ken Livingstone. Tony Benn. You name the socialist, they've interviewed them to try and ruin the memory of this great lady.'

Paul Wells said: 'The BBC 10 o'clock news coverage of Baroness Thatcher's death is an absolute Left-wing biased disgrace . . . I want a TV licence refund now!'

'Baroness Thatcher a great leader of 20th Century, BBC brings on the haters and emphasises insignificant disturbances. Angry about the bias,' tweeted Bazee@Bazee.

Ken Scott claimed: 'BBC News showing their left-wing credentials by dragging a load of Thatcher haters out for interview. All of them waste-of-time has-beens!'

Chris Latimer tweeted: 'I am beginning to see the point of view of those who think the #bbc is Left-wing. Their coverage of Thatcher's death has been disgraceful.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306564/Margaret-Thatcher-Public-anger-BBC-bias-Viewers-hit-lengthy-coverage-poll-tax-miners-strike.html#ixzz2Q2J8umh9

TheScreamingEagles

Well we've seen a lot of George Osborne recently and the Tories go up 3%.

Definitely not a case post hoc ergo propter hoc.

david_herdson

One of the difficulties of daily polling is that nearly all the movement takes place within the MoE. Very few events move public opinion both significantly and instantly so even if there is a 10% swing in response to an event, if it takes place over even a few days, chances are each individual movement will be within the MoE and it take time for the cumulative picture to become clear.

My own theory on this one is that the chances are that it's less anything going right for the Tories and more an absence of things going wrong - a succession of which had previously depressed their share and increased Labour's lead.

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

It all looks like normal YouGov polling to me, but maybe I am missing something.

Agree - it will be a lead of 12 tomorrow.

Despite the ramping by some (mainly on the left), the only thing that's going to shift the polling is the economy (or perceptions of economic competence, cf last year's budget) - welfare, Europe et al are things "not to cock up" but will not shift VI.

SouthamObserver

Financier said:

Public anger at BBC bias:
Viewers hit out at lengthy coverage of poll tax and miners' strike after Baroness Thatcher's death

Viewers complain bulletins gave too great an emphasis to critics
Twitter users accuse BBC of 'shameless' bias against the former PM
One viewer said: 'You name the socialist, they've interviewed them'
Another said the coverage was 'an absolute Left-wing biased disgrace'

The BBC was accused of 'disgraceful' bias yesterday over its coverage of Baroness Thatcher's death.

Angry viewers complained its news bulletins gave too great an emphasis to her critics and to controversies such as the poll tax and the miners' strike.

Twitter users accused the BBC of 'shameless' bias against the former Prime Minister. The broadcaster also faced criticism because newsreaders did not wear black ties following the announcement of her death.

During her 11 years as Prime Minister, Lady Thatcher made clear her dislike of those running the BBC and complained about its 'Left-wing' bias.

In the hours following the announcement of her death, those feelings were echoed by many.

EF, London, declared: 'Shameless Marxist BBC, Ken Livingstone. Tony Benn. You name the socialist, they've interviewed them to try and ruin the memory of this great lady.'

Paul Wells said: 'The BBC 10 o'clock news coverage of Baroness Thatcher's death is an absolute Left-wing biased disgrace . . . I want a TV licence refund now!'

'Baroness Thatcher a great leader of 20th Century, BBC brings on the haters and emphasises insignificant disturbances. Angry about the bias,' tweeted Bazee@Bazee.

Ken Scott claimed: 'BBC News showing their left-wing credentials by dragging a load of Thatcher haters out for interview. All of them waste-of-time has-beens!'

Chris Latimer tweeted: 'I am beginning to see the point of view of those who think the #bbc is Left-wing. Their coverage of Thatcher's death has been disgraceful.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306564/Margaret-Thatcher-Public-anger-BBC-bias-Viewers-hit-lengthy-coverage-poll-tax-miners-strike.html#ixzz2Q2J8umh9

Five tweets. A story built on five tweets. Wonderful stuff!

TheScreamingEagles

I guess the next big potential shift in VI will be the Q1 GDP figures released at the end of the month.

If it shows we're in a triple dip that will move VI and the economic lead the Tories have with some pollsters.

SouthamObserver

Plato said:

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

More likely the presence of the royal family, the huge military-based ceremonial and the closing down of much of central London is the real reason for the £8 million cost.

But clearly a precedent is being set here. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

SouthamObserver

david_herdson said:

One of the difficulties of daily polling is that nearly all the movement takes place within the MoE. Very few events move public opinion both significantly and instantly so even if there is a 10% swing in response to an event, if it takes place over even a few days, chances are each individual movement will be within the MoE and it take time for the cumulative picture to become clear.

My own theory on this one is that the chances are that it's less anything going right for the Tories and more an absence of things going wrong - a succession of which had previously depressed their share and increased Labour's lead.

True enough - the Labour line looks very steady. The Tories rise as UKIP falls. To some extent the Philpott debate and the death of Mrs T may have shifted the voting deckchair on the right.

Financier

Sun has a YouGov poll on Margaret Thatcher:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4880665/margaret-thatcher-best-pm-ahead-of-churchill.html

TGOHF

SE - triple dip ? We could be back to a single dip.

TheScreamingEagles

SouthamObserver said:

Plato said:

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

More likely the presence of the royal family, the huge military-based ceremonial and the closing down of much of central London is the real reason for the £8 million cost.

But clearly a precedent is being set here. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

I've read that neither Major, Blair or Brown want a ceremonial funeral for themselves, just a small private affair for family and friends.

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

Do you consider that likely?

TheScreamingEagles

TGOHF said:

SE - triple dip ? We could be back to a single dip.

I know but the headlines will be we're in a Triple Dip.

TGOHF

Even if we aren't ??

TheScreamingEagles

TGOHF said:

Even if we aren't ??

I think the revision to the second dip won't happen until later on this year. Around q3

SouthamObserver

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

Do you consider that likely?

I consider it very unlikely that there would be no complaints were Blair or Brown to get a ceremonial funeral.

TGOHF

Why would Brown get any sort of hoopla?

He achieved nothing not even a GE win.

A minor bit part actor in a bad bad film.

TheScreamingEagles

TGOHF said:

Why would Brown get any sort of hoopla?

He achieved nothing not even a GE win.

A minor bit part actor in a bad bad film.

You forget Gordon Brown's biggest achievement, he abolished Boom and Bust

Millsy

TheScreamingEagles said:

SouthamObserver said:

Plato said:

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

More likely the presence of the royal family, the huge military-based ceremonial and the closing down of much of central London is the real reason for the £8 million cost.

But clearly a precedent is being set here. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

I've read that neither Major, Blair or Brown want a ceremonial funeral for themselves, just a small private affair for family and friends.

That's because they know they won't get one?

TheScreamingEagles

Millsy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SouthamObserver said:

Plato said:

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

More likely the presence of the royal family, the huge military-based ceremonial and the closing down of much of central London is the real reason for the £8 million cost.

But clearly a precedent is being set here. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

I've read that neither Major, Blair or Brown want a ceremonial funeral for themselves, just a small private affair for family and friends.

That's because they know they won't get one?

Sir John could expect one for his Northern Ireland peace process work.

Blair could also expect one due to his long spell as PM and his work on the Northern Ireland peace process as well

SouthamObserver

TGOHF said:

Why would Brown get any sort of hoopla?

He achieved nothing not even a GE win.

A minor bit part actor in a bad bad film.

Presumably Mrs T is getting the full monty because she was a long-serving PM. Up until now, these types of funerals have not been held for divisive political figures, which is what all recognise Mrs T was. This one must be based on her being a PM, not on what her policies were.

That said, I agree that Brown won't get one - he was not in the job long enough. But Blair is another matter altogether.

asjohnstone

The labour line is rock solid; it just shows the softness of the UKIP vote; it's tories on holiday. It'll melt like snow from a dyke on election day. I'd be staggered if they got more than 4%

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

Do you consider that likely?

I consider it very unlikely that there would be no complaints were Blair or Brown to get a ceremonial funeral.

I think "were" a much more likely outcome than the "when" of your original post.

Given their shared electoral success, Blair would be a potential candidate - but I doubt it will happen - unless a newly democratic Middle East has risen from the adventures in Iraq. Unlike Thatcher and Eastern Europe.....

foxinsoxuk

Millsy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SouthamObserver said:

Plato said:

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

More likely the presence of the royal family, the huge military-based ceremonial and the closing down of much of central London is the real reason for the £8 million cost.

But clearly a precedent is being set here. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

I've read that neither Major, Blair or Brown want a ceremonial funeral for themselves, just a small private affair for family and friends.

That's because they know they won't get one?

It will be a precedent for future Prime Ministers, for good or ill. The scale of the funeral and the recall of parliament are rather over the top.

SouthamObserver

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

Do you consider that likely?

I consider it very unlikely that there would be no complaints were Blair or Brown to get a ceremonial funeral.

I think "were" a much more likely outcome than the "when" of your original post.

Given their shared electoral success, Blair would be a potential candidate - but I doubt it will happen - unless a newly democratic Middle East has risen from the adventures in Iraq. Unlike Thatcher and Eastern Europe.....

Hmmm - ceremonial funerals based on subjective political judgements do not sound like a good idea to me. There is either an accepted criteria or there is not.

old_labour

Financier said:

Public anger at BBC bias:
Viewers hit out at lengthy coverage of poll tax and miners' strike after Baroness Thatcher's death

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306564/Margaret-Thatcher-Public-anger-BBC-bias-Viewers-hit-lengthy-coverage-poll-tax-miners-strike.html#ixzz2Q2J8umh9

@Financier
Typical Mail. Fauxoutrage and no meaningful stats on how many objected to the coverage.

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

Do you consider that likely?

I consider it very unlikely that there would be no complaints were Blair or Brown to get a ceremonial funeral.

I think "were" a much more likely outcome than the "when" of your original post.

Given their shared electoral success, Blair would be a potential candidate - but I doubt it will happen - unless a newly democratic Middle East has risen from the adventures in Iraq. Unlike Thatcher and Eastern Europe.....

Hmmm - ceremonial funerals based on subjective political judgements do not sound like a good idea to me. There is either an accepted criteria or there is not.

A ceremonial funeral for a PM who never won a democratic mandate would certainly be setting a precedent!

Millsy

TheScreamingEagles said:

Millsy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SouthamObserver said:

Plato said:

RT @Parlez_me_nTory: Some on the left moaning about cost of a funeral that requires a huge police/intelligence service contribution due to their actions #irony

More likely the presence of the royal family, the huge military-based ceremonial and the closing down of much of central London is the real reason for the £8 million cost.

But clearly a precedent is being set here. When Blair and Brown get the same treatment - despite being equally as divisive as Mrs T - no-one will be able to complain.

I've read that neither Major, Blair or Brown want a ceremonial funeral for themselves, just a small private affair for family and friends.

That's because they know they won't get one?

Sir John could expect one for his Northern Ireland peace process work.

Blair could also expect one due to his long spell as PM and his work on the Northern Ireland peace process as well

Well hopefully it will be at least 20 years before whoever is king/PM will have to front that decision.

But when Blair does eventually pass on he will only be remembered for being in the right place at the right time, not challenging Thatcher's consensus, and not having the balls to tell Brown where to get off.

And any PM in power over the past 40 years would have done something about Northern Ireland.

Millsy

asjohnstone said:

The labour line is rock solid; it just shows the softness of the UKIP vote; it's tories on holiday. It'll melt like snow from a dyke on election day. I'd be staggered if they got more than 4%

The Labour vote might be consistent, but considering 40% of their current VI is made up from people who didn't vote Labour last time, and there aren't even any policies yet to piss off old or new voters (or both), they have all their problems in front of them.

CarlottaVance

Interesting analysis from Freedland in the Guardian:

"Lady Thatcher debate a battle over Britain's present and future
Make no mistake, the politicised contest about how to remember the former prime minister is not about the past"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/lady-thatcher-britain-present-future

old_labour

Two wives of Sir Mark Thatcher to attend funeral of his mother at her request

I assume he divorced the first one before he married the second.

TGOHF

Leftist poster advises us sagely to move on from Fatcha - then posts a bunch of posts about her family.....

MikeK

I agree with Richard Nabavi and even tim in this instance: they've all gone a bit crackers on Maggies death.

Instead, It's time to toss the dice!

CarlottaVance

Easington Miners plan party :

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/indepth/margaret_thatcher/10342729.Easington_s_former_miners_to_party_as_Margaret_Thatcher_is_buried/

Easington Colliery closed in 1993.....

TGOHF

The last 2 PMs have got their own sources of wealth - and not from their MPs salary.

SouthamObserver

tim said:

How many more days of people searching Twitter to find comments that outrage them do we have to have?
How many more mourning dresses does Louise Mensch possess?

These are the big questions.

I am outraged that there have not been enough outrageous comments from Labour politicians and supporters to outrage certain commentators; and that media coverage has generally been balanced. I am outraged there have not been enough opportunities to be outraged.

TwistedFireStopper

As much as I dislike Blair, I wouldn't begrudge him the same funeral as Thatcher, although I believe its a bit excessive, and recalling parliament to debate her is just plain barmy. Brown and Major can pay for their own bashes.

old_labour

TGOHF said:

Leftist poster advises us sagely to move on from Fatcha - then posts a bunch of posts about her family.....

We have the Mail to thank for all the info.

TGOHF

Zzzzzzz - boring stuff Tim - get over it. She won.

CarlottaVance

tim said:

@TGOHF

After they left office

It would be impossible for a sitting PM to survive this now

MARK THATCHER made millions of pounds from Britain's huge Al-Yamamah arms deal with Saudi Arabia, signed in 1985 by his mother, Margaret Thatcher, when prime minister, it is alleged today.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mark-thatcher-accused-sources-say-he-got-12m-pounds-from-arms-deal-signed-by-his-mother-1441851.html

Were the "allegations" ever proved ?

12 years on, they were still only "allegations" in the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/28/bae.whitehall

Smear the mother by proxy.....nice.....

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

tim said:

How many more days of people searching Twitter to find comments that outrage them do we have to have?
How many more mourning dresses does Louise Mensch possess?

These are the big questions.

I am outraged that there have not been enough outrageous comments from Labour politicians and supporters to outrage certain commentators; and that media coverage has generally been balanced. I am outraged there have not been enough opportunities to be outraged.

You must have missed the excellent chap on GMTV this morning who broke out into a Thatcher rant. By the end it was just plain funny with Kate Garraway not knowing what to do.

Plato

My, what incredibly thin skins the Lefties have 20 odd yrs after losing 3x on the trot to her.

I'm constantly surprised by how graceless some can be. It has the reek of Westboro Baptists to protest at a funeral.

Alanbrooke

tim said:

@TGOHF

After they left office

It would be impossible for a sitting PM to survive this now

MARK THATCHER made millions of pounds from Britain's huge Al-Yamamah arms deal with Saudi Arabia, signed in 1985 by his mother, Margaret Thatcher, when prime minister, it is alleged today.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mark-thatcher-accused-sources-say-he-got-12m-pounds-from-arms-deal-signed-by-his-mother-1441851.html

Oh good, we can talk about families then, I look forward to 30 years of following the Blairs.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Over on pb2, Messrs Nigel and Putney have some interesting early thoughts on possible bets for China:
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/china-early-discussion.html

DavidL

Yet another tax agreement by Osborne, this time with our European neighbours and requiring banks to disclose accounts that may be related to tax evasion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/9982660/UK-signs-tax-deal-with-France-Germany-Italy-and-Spain.html

It no doubt reflects the Treasury's desperate need for cash but we have never had a government which was so focussed on ensuring that the rich pay their share and that tax evasion and even tax avoidance become ever more difficult.

Of course this does not fit the narrative of tories helping out their posh friends so it gets little attention but George is not only building up a serious body of work here but showing up the incompetence and indifference of the last government to, you know, running the country or doing anything other than spending it.

I am sure Margaret would approve. Her strong sense of morals and her willingness to defend them is one of many things missing from today's politics.

Plato

@DavidL

"I am sure Margaret would approve. Her strong sense of morals and her willingness to defend them is one of many things missing from today's politics."

There was an interesting comment in the DT re Osborne's last Budget being Thatcherite in nature - but because the view of what she stood for has been so warped, this was missed.

It's been too long since I read her diaries/view on monetarism etc for me to comment - perhaps others who are scholars of this can?

FluffyThoughts

Anyone claiming that Baroness Thatcher should not get a cermonial-funeral would better spend their time studying some history: The Iron Duke had a state-funeral despite the turmoil he brought to many "workers" and "Oirish". Still, it's the usual ill-informed that are posting their vaste lack-of-knowledge; and they are beyond help....

DavidL

Plato said:

@DavidL

"I am sure Margaret would approve. Her strong sense of morals and her willingness to defend them is one of many things missing from today's politics."

There was an interesting comment in the DT re Osborne's last Budget being Thatcherite in nature - but because the view of what she stood for has been so warped, this was missed.

It's been too long since I read her diaries/view on monetarism etc for me to comment - perhaps others who are scholars of this can?

Which version of monetarism? There is a good summary here of the 4 versions we went through in the Thatcher years: http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/

Thatcherism had very strong pillars but it was always a lot more pragmatic in application than either those who praise her or those who condemn her were willing to admit.

Alanbrooke

Looks like Slovenia's next up for a spot of European "solidarity".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/09/slovenia-eurozone-bailout-rumours

CarlottaVance

Alanbrooke said:

Looks like Slovenia's next up for a spot of European "solidarity".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/09/slovenia-eurozone-bailout-rumours

Anything that keeps the spotlight off France....

TGOHF

Alanbrooke - getting closer to Paris.

O/t the evens offered on Tiger to finish in the top 5 at the masters is unbelievable - am in bawdeep.
(betfair)

john_zims

@SouthObserver

'Presumably Mrs T is getting the full monty because she was a long-serving PM. Up until now, these types of funerals have not been held for divisive political figures,'

And Blair wasn't a divisive political figure?

'The largest demonstration organised by the Coalition was against the imminent invasion of Iraq on 15 February 2003, claimed to be the largest demonstration in Britain with estimates of attendance ranging between 750,000 and 2,000,000 people'

Plato

The Sun are attempting to redeem themselves ...

LADY Thatcher is voted Margaret the Great today in an exclusive Sun poll.

More than a quarter of all those surveyed hailed her as Britain’s most popular PM since World War Two. An overwhelming 28 per cent of people interviewed opted for Maggie as “the greatest” out of 13 Prime Ministers we have had since 1945.

She even eclipsed legendary Sir Winston Churchill, who came second in the poll. Churchill, who as well as being Britain’s wartime leader was also PM from 1951-55, won 24 per cent of support.

Third was Tony Blair on ten per cent — but current PM David Cameron scored zero along with 1970s Tory leader Edward Heath.

Asked how they rated Lady T’s performance from 1979 to 1990, 52 per cent of all those questioned felt she was “great” or “good” — compared to 30 per cent who said she was “poor” or “terrible”.

It shows Maggie has comfortably more supporters than detractors across the social classes, in every age group and in every region of England and Wales.

Only in Scotland do more think she was a bad Premier — by 44 per cent to 33.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4880665/margaret-thatcher-best-pm-ahead-of-churchill.html#ixzz2Q2jnCqrS

BenM

@Plato

More of a recognition poll that. I wonder if it affected the voting intention this morning.

Also, the idea football should hold a minute silence this weekend for someone who eyed it with suspicion is laughable.

It would not be respected at any ground, so let's not subject ourselves to such unedifying spectacles to please the whims of egotistical rich men. Whelan and Madejski need to wind their necks in.

CarlottaVance

While not a fan, Nadine Dorries tweets sense:


Regardless of deeply felt divisions, at Tony Blairs last PMQS Tory MPs demonstrated respect and civility. We gave him a standing ovation.

Cyclefree

Why is a ceremonial funeral needed at all? Wouldn't a private funeral, followed by a suitably grand memorial service, attended by the great and the good, have done just as well?

I'm not in favour of quasi-state funerals for politicians generally. And Parliament's recall is excessive: why couldn't time have been set aside when Parliament resumed sitting next week? It's not as if there is some sort of emergency or reason why it has to be today as opposed to next week.

It all feels a bit too hubristic to me. She was a political phenomenon: her legacy is mixed and will be argued about for years but she was a political servant not some totem of the state we have to worship.

Still since the ceremony is happening let's hope the proper decencies are observed.

Alanbrooke

@ TGOHF @ Carlotta

Poor Francois hasn't time to mess about with trivia like the economy, he's too busy sorting out which of his cabinet have been stashing their money in tax havens.

Plato

Some historical polling on Mrs Thatcher

" For much of her time in Downing Street, Lady Thatcher was considered a capable leader by a significant proportion of voters, according to three decades of polling by Ipsos Mori.

In April 1979, shortly before the General Election which swept her to power, some 26 per cent of voters said, when asked to choose from a list of descriptors, that Lady Thatcher was a capable leader.

That had risen to 44 per cent by May 1982, after the British task force had been sent to the South Atlantic to retake the Falkland Islands. By May 1983, after the war was won and a month before her second General Election, she was seen as capable by 62 per cent of the population.

By May 1987, shortly before her third general election and following the deregulation of the City and the privatisation of a number of nationalised industries, her capability ratings rose again to 59 per cent.

On leaving office, her capability ratings were 39 per cent. That would be significantly higher than those enjoyed by her successors..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9981512/Polling-Margaret-Thatcher-most-capable-of-Tory-leaders.html

SouthamObserver

Plato said:

My, what incredibly thin skins the Lefties have 20 odd yrs after losing 3x on the trot to her.

I'm constantly surprised by how graceless some can be. It has the reek of Westboro Baptists to protest at a funeral.

john_zims said:

@SouthObserver

'Presumably Mrs T is getting the full monty because she was a long-serving PM. Up until now, these types of funerals have not been held for divisive political figures,'

And Blair wasn't a divisive political figure?

'The largest demonstration organised by the Coalition was against the imminent invasion of Iraq on 15 February 2003, claimed to be the largest demonstration in Britain with estimates of attendance ranging between 750,000 and 2,000,000 people

'

Yes, that was indeed my point!!

CarlottaVance

David Mellor on R4 - an attempt at a minutes silence for Thatcher would do no good for Thatcher's memory or football's reputation. Who thought it was a good idea in the first place?

BenM

CarlottaVance said:

David Mellor on R4 - an attempt at a minutes silence for Thatcher would do no good for Thatcher's memory or football's reputation. Who thought it was a good idea in the first place?

A couple of rich men.

BenM

Probably posted before:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-the-thatcher-myths/13236

Mick_Pork

CarlottaVance said:

While not a fan, Nadine Dorries tweets sense:


Regardless of deeply felt divisions, at Tony Blairs last PMQS Tory MPs demonstrated respect and civility. We gave him a standing ovation.

*tears of laughter etc*

This would be the heir to Blair Cammie who led the tribute, ovation and gushing praise.
I wonder why?

Still, at least we might get to hear more hilariously inept second rate Blair impersonations from Cammie today with the peoples prime minister/patriot princess or whatever else his incompetent spinners dream up.

SouthamObserver

BenM said:

@Plato

More of a recognition poll that. I wonder if it affected the voting intention this morning.

Also, the idea football should hold a minute silence this weekend for someone who eyed it with suspicion is laughable.

It would not be respected at any ground, so let's not subject ourselves to such unedifying spectacles to please the whims of egotistical rich men. Whelan and Madejski need to wind their necks in.

The football ID card scheme she was going to introduce until Hillsbrough stopped her in her tracks would have killed football. She was not a fan, to say the least.

Mick_Pork

@SouthamObserver

The outrage tourists have days more pathetic whining to get out of their system yet. Best to let them foam at the mouth, they'll calm down eventually. ;^)

Plato

I've been avoiding the media - particularly the BBC as everytime I trip across it, its invariably leftish victim slant is dreary.

Has there been many references to the Brighton bombing? I've not heard anything but have heard much on miners, unemployment, Billy Bragg/Tony Benn/Ken Livingstone et al... I'd never guess she was voted in with large majorities 3x.

nigel4england

asjohnstone said:

The labour line is rock solid; it just shows the softness of the UKIP vote; it's tories on holiday. It'll melt like snow from a dyke on election day. I'd be staggered if they got more than 4%

Prepare to be staggered!

If anything it's the Labour poll that's soft, as soon as Ed has to appear before the wider public and talk about policy then people will wise up.

Plato

@SouthamObserver

"The football ID card scheme she was going to introduce until Hillsbrough stopped her in her tracks would have killed football. She was not a fan, to say the least."

TBF, football in the 80s was appalling in many places - fans acted like animals and were treated like them by the police.

CarlottaVance

@Mick_Pork, that you are a stranger to civility is no surprise. We can add that to "reason".

Morris_Dancer

Incidentally, the desire by the SNP to retain the pound is well-known, but is it really their aim to keep the Bank of England as lender of last resort?:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306651/Scotland-expects-Bank-England-bail-split-UK.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

BenM

Plato said:

@SouthamObserver

"The football ID card scheme she was going to introduce until Hillsbrough stopped her in her tracks would have killed football. She was not a fan, to say the least."

TBF, football in the 80s was appalling in many places - fans acted like animals and were treated like them by the police.

The problem is Thatcher encouraged the police to behave that way.

hucks67

Think this latest poll is just within the MOE. In regard to Thatchers period in office, I think the news coverage has been balanced on all channels. People do perceive bias when really it is not the case. Some people absolutely loved Mrs Thatcher and won't accept any critiscims of her terms in office. They are being too sensitive and should accept she did become very unpopular, even within the Tory party. I notice that Hesseltine has been very quiet in recent days.

Mick_Pork

CarlottaVance said:

@Mick_Pork, that you are a stranger to civility is no surprise. We can add that to "reason".

So your idea of civility is to unquestioningly agree with Nadine Dorries hopeless spin?

Yes, I rather thought it might be. You not being a stranger to incompetent attempts at public relations and spin.

Mick_Pork

BenM said:

The problem is Thatcher encouraged the police to behave that way.

Are you sure it isn't the BBC's fault?

LOL

SouthamObserver

Plato said:

@SouthamObserver

"The football ID card scheme she was going to introduce until Hillsbrough stopped her in her tracks would have killed football. She was not a fan, to say the least."

TBF, football in the 80s was appalling in many places - fans acted like animals and were treated like them by the police.

Football was a reflection of society. Some people behaved violently, the vast majority did not. The ID scheme would have destroyed the sport professionally , was a restraint of trade and a violation of civil liberties. The Hillsbrough tragedy saw it off.

Plato

This is probably also something else that the hard Left really hate her for.

"For young Europeans, it must be difficult to imagine the routine deprivation that existed behind the Iron Curtain when Margaret Thatcher came to power. As a refugee in London during the Eighties, I had to smuggle necessities to my family in Poland: toothpaste, shampoo, washing powder and, hidden in the parcels, miniature editions of books that were banned there. Occasionally, these were found and confiscated – including, in 1984, a copy of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Mrs Thatcher’s role in changing all this cannot be overstated. For those behind the Iron Curtain, she was a member of the anti-communist “Holy Trinity” – consisting of John Paul II, Ronald Reagan and herself – who altered the fate of the West, and consequently the fate of those outside it.

She did in the West what Solidarity did in the East. Solidarity was a workers’ movement against the communist state, which exposed the illegitimacy of the Communist Party’s claim to represent the working class. Mrs Thatcher similarly turned the tide: until she entered the fray, it was assumed that capitalism was ultimately going to converge with communism – and that a bigger and bigger role for the state was inevitable. She put an end to that. By rejuvenating Britain, she made the strongest possible case against the model of the command economy in both its hard and soft forms..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9982098/Margaret-Thatcher-A-Cold-War-angel-and-a-democratic-miracle.html says Poland's Foreign Min.

Schards

I'm a Reading fan and it appears there's a serious hornets nest being stirred about a minute's silence at the game on Saturday. Madejski has publically requested one and we are playing.....Liverpool. Most fans, even those supportive of Thatcher has suggested that this may not be a great idea as there is no way Liverpool fans will respect it.

The club have now said they were proposing to have a minute's silence for the 24th Hillsborough anniversary anyway (though there was no mention of this previously). Which raises the possibility of it being combined.

Have to say, the thought of Liverpool fans celebrating Thatcher's death at our ground (between their many goals) as their forums suggest they will, doesn't fill me with anticipation for afternoon.

AndreaParma_82

According to Labour List, Labour MPs have been invited to go back to Westminster for today's sitting just not to have the opposition benches too empty.

However, some are refusing to do so. John Healey is not taking part to "a platform for his (DC) Party’s ideology not just eulogy". The updated tribute by Cameron "is partisan, divisive and diminishes the Prime Minister’s Office" according to him.

John Mann must go to the dentist today. Ronnie Campbell won't pay tribute to "her legacy here was the destruction of thousands of jobs”.

David Winnick argues it would be hypocrital not to speak against her record today (EdM warned MPs to be respectful today).

CarlottaVance

Morris_Dancer said:

Incidentally, the desire by the SNP to retain the pound is well-known, but is it really their aim to keep the Bank of England as lender of last resort?:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306651/Scotland-expects-Bank-England-bail-split-UK.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

"‘The proposal for the Scottish Government to exert some influence over the Bank of England, let alone the rest of the UK exchequer, is devoid of precedent and entirely fanciful.’

"Entirely fanciful". That'll be a "yes" then...

Funny how the Scottish Green Party or PanelBase have still not published the "Yes/No" split on independence.

I wonder why?

eek

CarlottaVance said:

Easington Miners plan party :

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/indepth/margaret_thatcher/10342729.Easington_s_former_miners_to_party_as_Margaret_Thatcher_is_buried/

Easington Colliery closed in 1993.....

Its a prime example of making a fool of yourself. The parties are long standing arrangements to make the 20th Anniversary of the pit closure on April 17th 1993. BBC Look North commented on it last night but its was explained how it happened. Meanwhile a left wing idiot uses it to score pointless points and look foolish while doing so.

Blue_rog

TGOHF said:

Alanbrooke - getting closer to Paris.

O/t the evens offered on Tiger to finish in the top 5 at the masters is unbelievable - am in bawdeep.
(betfair)

How about Rory's 13/2 (without Tiger) to win on Bet365 also 1/4 on first 5

NickPalmer

The TNS and recent YouGovs suggest that the welfare issue didn't help the Tories. The Thatcher media phenomenon may well have done and may still do - we may need to wait a couple of week to be entirely clear.

While I don't have strong views on the Parliamentary session or the style of the funeral, I think we need to have some consistent convention on former PMs that doesn't involve the politicians of the day making a value judgment about them - it's going to be undignified if we squabble over each one in turn. The longer the length of service the more elaborate the commemoration seems a reasonable convention.

Plato

I see R5 is having a phone-in about Mrs T's funeral costs. Tasteless. Just tasteless.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Palmer, it's possible that welfare is a shy issue, by which I mean there's a 'nice' and a 'nasty' response, and that people are more likely to fib if they believe it should be slashed.

Overseas aid probably isn't directly comparable, because that's about the UK and Everywhere Else, whereas welfare here is about British benefits for British temporarily unemployed/ill and disabled/scrounger/slackers.

JackW

@Financier

Clearly the rampaging LibDem polling figure in Scotland is due to recent appearances of Viscount Thurso on the wireless. Listeners are able to envisage the dramatic improvements to their lives emboldened as they would be by the presence of bearded Scottish nobles !!

Fine pie production might also see a balance of payment uplift.

Huzzah for the Scots aristocracy !!

Plato

NickPalmer said:

The TNS and recent YouGovs suggest that the welfare issue didn't help the Tories. The Thatcher media phenomenon may well have done and may still do - we may need to wait a couple of week to be entirely clear.

While I don't have strong views on the Parliamentary session or the style of the funeral, I think we need to have some consistent convention on former PMs that doesn't involve the politicians of the day making a value judgment about them - it's going to be undignified if we squabble over each one in turn. The longer the length of service the more elaborate the commemoration seems a reasonable convention.

I agree - tenure of office seems to be one that relies on popularity at the time, free of partisan interpretation and simple.

Schards

Plato said:

I see R5 is having a phone-in about Mrs T's funeral costs. Tasteless. Just tasteless.

On the day of her death, the BBC was quite balanced but, regrettably, they have subsequently reverted to type with almost 100% negative coverage. One of the main stories on the website today is that an australian who I've never heard of thinks she's a racist.

CarlottaVance

AndreaParma_82 said:

David Winnick argues it would be hypocrital not to speak against her record today (EdM warned MPs to be respectful today).

I see no contradiction in while acknowledging Thatcher's service and electoral success also criticising her record. She loved a good argument and would be sorely disappointed if Skinner did not take a pop at her today.

It's the Opposition Front Bench, scared of their own shadow, and the "I'd rather be tortured" stay away MPs who look foolish.

Alanbrooke

AndreaParma_82 said:

According to Labour List, Labour MPs have been invited to go back to Westminster for today's sitting just not to have the opposition benches too empty.

However, some are refusing to do so. John Healey is not taking part to "a platform for his (DC) Party’s ideology not just eulogy". The updated tribute by Cameron "is partisan, divisive and diminishes the Prime Minister’s Office" according to him.

John Mann must go to the dentist today. Ronnie Campbell won't pay tribute to "her legacy here was the destruction of thousands of jobs”.

David Winnick argues it would be hypocrital not to speak against her record today (EdM warned MPs to be respectful today).

I still can't see the point of today's meeting. They could have done a spot at the next Parlt. on Mrs T and that would have been about right. This is just theatrics.

BenM

Schards said:

The club have now said they were proposing to have a minute's silence for the 24th Hillsborough anniversary anyway (though there was no mention of this previously). Which raises the possibility of it being combined.

.

That is emotional blackmail. Madejski is fantastically out of touch.

Mick_Pork

Any more news on Cast Iron Cammie's Treaty that he needs to save him from the wrath of his own backbenchers?

100 Tory MPs demand law change on EU referendum as Germany and France snub UK review of Brussels powers

Merkel and Hollande refuse to co-operate with the UK

Balance of competences study is looking at where the EU interferes

Cameron promised nothing was off the table in wide-ranging process

More than 100 Conservative backbenchers have written to David Cameron demanding legislation guaranteeing a referendum on Britain’s future in Europe after 2015.

The Prime Minister, who pledged earlier this year that he would offer voters an in/out referendum if he wins the next election, is under increasing pressure from MPs to put forward an ‘enabling’ Bill in this Parliament.

Several ministers and junior members of the Government are thought to be backing the idea, although only backbench MPs signed this week’s letter.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2302716/100-Tory-MPs-demand-law-change-EU-referendum-Germany-France-snub-UK-review-Brussels-powers.html

At least the PB gullibles who were skipping when he announced his jam tomorrow referendum still believe him. The same ones that believed him over the flounce that wasn't.

*chortle*

malcolmg

CarlottaVance said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Incidentally, the desire by the SNP to retain the pound is well-known, but is it really their aim to keep the Bank of England as lender of last resort?:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306651/Scotland-expects-Bank-England-bail-split-UK.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

"‘The proposal for the Scottish Government to exert some influence over the Bank of England, let alone the rest of the UK exchequer, is devoid of precedent and entirely fanciful.’

"Entirely fanciful". That'll be a "yes" then...

Funny how the Scottish Green Party or PanelBase have still not published the "Yes/No" split on independence.

I wonder why?

You mean the UK bank that Scotland owns 10% of at present. From the way the unionists go on you would think it belonged to England only , I know it requires a few brain cells to go beyond the name but give it a try.

Plato

Schards said:

Plato said:

I see R5 is having a phone-in about Mrs T's funeral costs. Tasteless. Just tasteless.

On the day of her death, the BBC was quite balanced but, regrettably, they have subsequently reverted to type with almost 100% negative coverage. One of the main stories on the website today is that an australian who I've never heard of thinks she's a racist.

Their first contributor is Ken Livingstone... It's just so predictable. I'm switching it off again.

malcolmg

Morris_Dancer said:

Incidentally, the desire by the SNP to retain the pound is well-known, but is it really their aim to keep the Bank of England as lender of last resort?:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306651/Scotland-expects-Bank-England-bail-split-UK.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Morris, you forget we own 10% of the UK instituition known as the Bank of England. Just because they did not change the name does not mean it belongs to England only.