@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it was a very sensible idea when National Insurance was set up for state healthcare, state pensions and unemployment insurance, it is moving away from it that has caused the problems
NICs were *never* hypothecated.
Politicians just said that was what they were for.
Hypothecation is profoundly undemocratic - it prevents politicians from determining resource allocation - as well as being fiscally damaging
The whole point of National Insurance and the reason it was originally created by Lloyd-George was to fund health and state pensions in one scheme and unemployment benefit in the other
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Perhaps another way to think about this is, suppose the Govt could raise an extra 20 billion in tax receipts.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Perhaps another way to think about this is, suppose the Govt could raise an extra 20 billion in tax receipts.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
Can anyone in the PB Brainstrust explain what fractions of NHS spend relate to proximity to end of life? I mean what % is spent in the last month, 3 months, 6mths of life, and by age?
I ask because I am at that middle age bucket when friends are starting to die of cancers, and parents are passing away. My elderly father often says he believes it to be inimical that so much is spent on extending life at his age when younger people should have higher priority. I asked if he was volunteering his age group for euthanasia, but he just said palliative care should be cheap: his grandfather had morphine, whisky, claret and the home service.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on more than just healthcare and pensions etc you may have a point but you well and truly don't. If we were to return to a hypothecated system that we never had then you would have to slash pension or healthcare spending dramatically.
No, it is entirely correct. The whole point of National Insurance was to fund health, pensions and unemployment and it still raises £125 billion a year
The whole point is it has moved away from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
Can anyone in the PB Brainstrust explain what fractions of NHS spend relate to proximity to end of life? I mean what % is spent in the last month, 3 months, 6mths of life, and by age?
Excellent question. I'd be very interested to see those numbers.
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Perhaps another way to think about this is, suppose the Govt could raise an extra 20 billion in tax receipts.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
Can anyone in the PB Brainstrust explain what fractions of NHS spend relate to proximity to end of life? I mean what % is spent in the last month, 3 months, 6mths of life, and by age?
I ask because I am at that middle age bucket when friends are starting to die of cancers, and parents are passing away. My elderly father often says he believes it to be inimical that so much is spent on extending life at his age when younger people should have higher priority. I asked if he was volunteering his age group for euthanasia, but he just said palliative care should be cheap: his grandfather had morphine, whisky, claret and the home service.
I think you will find it varies between devolved assemblies.
In my sister's case she was diagnosed with terminal cancer and put under tge Wales NHS continuing care scheme for over 2 years before her death at a annual nursing home charge of £38,500. If she had had dementia she would have had to sell her flat down to £23,500 of residual value.
Furthermore, her pension was forfeited to the state
Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
Cairns tried to buy the house next door to me, when he became MP for the Vale. He didn't! A few abandoned cars, vans and white-goods on the paddock for the day of his viewing did the trick!
To be fair Cairns is an excellent constituency MP. He did make a horlicks of his maiden speech, and he does come across as a bit 'twp' but he is growing into the role. In a recent head to head on TV with Steve Kinnock, Cairns edged it!
I think we need to agree we have had good and bad, even dreadful experiences (I do not want to talk of my sisters last hours ) but the attacks on Wales labour over health and education are constant and media based.
I think the shame is that the national news virtually always attacks the English NHS and the government when as a national broadcaster they should be comparing all the devolved administrations figures to show that this crisis is beyond party politics and needs UK wide consensus.
I do think Hunt is committed to resolving the problem and his determination to stay in health and demand social care is taken under his brief, together with the green paper, shows a remarkable determination to succeed.
Indeed I did hear that Hunt said some time ago health will be his last job in governmrnt
Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
Cairns tried to buy the house next door to me, when he became MP for the Vale. He didn't! A few abandoned cars, vans and white-goods on the paddock for the day of his viewing did the trick!
To be fair Cairns is an excellent constituency MP. He did make a horlicks of his maiden speech, and he does come across as a bit 'twp' but he is growing into the role. In a recent head to head on TV with Steve Kinnock, Cairns edged it!
I think we need to agree we have had good and bad, even dreadful experiences (I do not want to talk of my sisters last hours ) but the attacks on Wales labour over health and education are constant and media based.
I think the shame is that the national news virtually always attacks the English NHS and the government when as a national broadcaster they should be comparing all the devolved administrations figures to show that this crisis is beyond party politics and needs UK wide consensus.
I do think Hunt is committed to resolving the problem and his determination to stay in health and demand social care is taken under his brief, together with the green paper, shows a remarkable determination to succeed.
Indeed I did hear that Hunt said some time ago health will be his last job in governmrnt
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Perhaps another way to think about this is, suppose the Govt could raise an extra 20 billion in tax receipts.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
Can anyone in the PB Brainstrust explain what fractions of NHS spend relate to proximity to end of life? I mean what % is spent in the last month, 3 months, 6mths of life, and by age?
I ask because I am at that middle age bucket when friends are starting to die of cancers, and parents are passing away. My elderly father often says he believes it to be inimical that so much is spent on extending life at his age when younger people should have higher priority. I asked if he was volunteering his age group for euthanasia, but he just said palliative care should be cheap: his grandfather had morphine, whisky, claret and the home service.
I too have lost a few middle aged friends to cancer. Unfortunately, cancer presenting at younger age is typically more aggressive. 4 of my medical school year of 142 did not make the 25 year reunion for that reason.
In this US study, about 22% of healthcare spend was in the final year of life:
Of course, no one is certain when spending that money that it is the last year, until the grim reaper pops up. Until then it could just be a blip, with many years to go.
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Perhaps another way to think about this is, suppose the Govt could raise an extra 20 billion in tax receipts.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
Can anyone in the PB Brainstrust explain what fractions of NHS spend relate to proximity to end of life? I mean what % is spent in the last month, 3 months, 6mths of life, and by age?
I ask because I am at that middle age bucket when friends are starting to die of cancers, and parents are passing away. My elderly father often says he believes it to be inimical that so much is spent on extending life at his age when younger people should have higher priority. I asked if he was volunteering his age group for euthanasia, but he just said palliative care should be cheap: his grandfather had morphine, whisky, claret and the home service.
40% is spent on over 65s - Google NHS spending by age group for source.
As a mid 50s cancer survivor (but you never quite know) I would swap some of the right to medical care after 65 for a guarantee of full on palliative care with a promise of a Brompton cocktail to finish on, but sadly Shipman severely limited the chances of that.
Which reminds me: the incompetent Scott of the Antarctic had literally pounds of morphine for pain relief and cocaine for snow blindness in his medical kit. In his position I would have taken the obvious step of mixing the two in lethal quantities.
Corbynistas now see Laura 'I could never be friends with a Tory' Pidcock as the new heir to the Messiah after Rebecca Long-Bailey, Emily Thornberry and Angela Rayner fall out of favour
Corbynistas now see Laura 'I could never be friends with a Tory' Pidcock as the new heir to the Messiah after Rebecca Long-Bailey, Emily Thornberry and Angela Rayner fall out of favour
Just think, if Corbyn decides to bow out next time the next general election could be between Gavin Williamson and Laura Pidcock, the anointed chosen ones of May and Corbyn
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Even that is political i think. I for instance am fine with euthanasia - others aren’t. Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t. Etc etc.
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Even that is political i think. I for instance am fine with euthanasia - others aren’t. Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t. Etc etc.
Same with abortion, contraception and gender reassignment surgery
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Even that is political i think. I for instance am fine with euthanasia - others aren’t. Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t. Etc etc.
Euthanasia - great in theory, would suck in practice. The possibilities of abuse are endless.
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Even that is political i think. I for instance am fine with euthanasia - others aren’t. Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t. Etc etc.
Same with abortion, contraception and gender reassignment surgery
Euthanasia - great in theory, would suck in practice. The possibilities of abuse are endless.
You could say the same about foster care, life insurance etc. I’m confident it would be possible to design a system that made the risk of abuse very close to zero.
Raba Research poll of 2020 Democratic primary voters puts Oprah third on 20%, 2% above Warren on 18% but behind Sanders on 21% and Biden on 26% http://www.rabaresearch.com/
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack....
Can we just agree on one thing...UKIP really was some kind of back comedy, populated by characters of a League of Gentleman....ooh I forgot one thing, it's rationale has taken over the country....
Can we just agree on one thing...UKIP really was some kind of back comedy, populated by characters of a League of Gentleman....ooh I forgot one thing, it's rationale has taken over the country....
David Cameron's description of UKIP pretty much spot on.
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack....
I can feel your pain and am truly sorry.
My sisters death was not pleasant as her cancer had spread to her brain and she was in a bad way in the last few weeks before she died, eventually in A &E even with a DNR in place
'I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days and faced their situation with dignity.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
Raba Research poll of 2020 Democratic primary voters puts Oprah third on 20%, 2% above Warren on 18% but behind Sanders on 21% and Biden on 26% http://www.rabaresearch.com/
I have a feeling that Bernie might endorse Warren.He has spoken highly of her in the past.That would put her in pole position.I think she is a worthy favourite but in all ante-post markets you have to ask,does the price compensate the fact she could end up a non-runner?a double figure price not a measly 6-1 is my rule.BTW Non-runner-no-bet markets are about for Cheltenham.You get your money back if your bet is a NR.NRNB.The Potus market is far less of a punters' fiesta.It might not work in political betting anymore but trends analysis pays at Cheltenham.
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
Not everyone can afford to go to Switzerland- and personally I think I should have the right to die in my own country surrounded by family and friends if I want to. I understand also that family members who may assist with suicide can then face prosecution for enabling...
It seems obvious to me that the current system is wrong but I suppose it is a generational thing.
If Bolton does go let us not forget anti Islam campaign Anne Marie-Waters was runner up in their last leadership campaign, if she runs again she may win and move UKIP from an anti EU to anti radical Islam focus (although she would have to rejoin having since started her own far Right party 'For Britain')
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack....
I can feel your pain Tyson and am truly sorry.
My sisters death was not pleasant as her cancer had spread to her brain and she was in a bad way in the last few weeks before she died, eventually in A &E even with a DNR in place
If Bolton does go let us not forget anti Islam campaign Anne Marie-Waters was runner up in their last leadership campaign, if she runs again she may win and move UKIP from an anti EU to anti radical Islam focus
Nige will have to be dragged back in the same way as the nomination for speaker gets dragged to the chair...
Very sad, but the alternative to euthanasia is much better terminal care.
Death, even with cancer or dementia need not be painful or undignified.
Personally, I am against euthanasia, but do believe that there is a point where it is time to call it a day on curative measures, and move to pallative ones.
I am reminded of a patient of mine, who was a Dunkirk survivor, who fell down the stairs at age 92 and broke his cervical spine. He was in a great deal of pain, and was treated with conservative measures. He became confused and disorientated, through pain and medication. Slowly he pulled through, and after 8 weeks was back home, a little frailer but mentally sharp as a pin and independently living once more. He died peacefully some six or so months later.
Not everyone is such a success, but older frail folk are to be appreciated not treated as inconvenient. Few reach such a grand age without having done something interesting.
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
Not everyone can afford to go to Switzerland- and personally I think I should have the right to die in my own country surrounded by family and friends if I want to. I understand also that family members who may assist with suicide can then face prosecution for enabling...
It seems obvious to me that the current system is wrong but I suppose it is a generational thing.
The king's doctor in 1936 ensured he had a relatively humane death, i.e. he administered the right drugs a.k.a. euthanasia.
This mode of death is now only available to pets and farm animals, or the lucky humans who get to 98 in good health and have a massive stroke.
Doctors should be obliged by statute not to strive officiously to keep alive. This used to be in their professional code of conduct.
'I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days and faced their situation with dignity.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
I cannot even begin to unpick what a crass, insensitive and idiotic post you have just made to someone who has just come back from living through this experience. OK...my personal situation withstanding...my mum died after stroke and I had to fight against a huge amount of pressure from siblings to nasally feed her which in all likelihood would have caused her to die of either of pneumonia or drowning. My father in law died last week with vascular dementia, losing in his last months and weeks the ability to swallow...both slowly starved to death, spending their last weeks hallucinating and in great pain. None were fit to leave their beds to hop on a plane to Switzerland. Their was no dignity in either of their deaths I'm afraid. They were horribly emaciated, and both terribly in pain because of bed sores and various ailments. Their mouths were cracked and dry, bleeding, their breath foul...they were both hallucinating. The worst is when you saw them wake up and look at the fear in their eyes when they had some comprehension of their situation.
Dignitas is horrible. It is a clinic. Many people go there when they are fit to travel and it is still far too early for them to die, but if they dare to leave it longer they are faced with the terrifying prospect of dying like my mum or father in law.
I had two dogs put down and I got the vet to come to my house. I refused to take them into a clinic to end their lives.
If Bolton does go let us not forget anti Islam campaign Anne Marie-Waters was runner up in their last leadership campaign, if she runs again she may win and move UKIP from an anti EU to anti radical Islam focus (although she would have to rejoin having since started her own far Right party 'For Britain')
Very sad, but the alternative to euthanasia is much better terminal care.
Death, even with cancer or dementia need not be painful or undignified.
Personally, I am against euthanasia, but do believe that there is a point where it is time to call it a day on curative measures, and move to pallative ones.
I am reminded of a patient of mine, who was a Dunkirk survivor, who fell down the stairs at age 92 and broke his cervical spine. He was in a great deal of pain, and was treated with conservative measures. He became confused and disorientated, through pain and medication. Slowly he pulled through, and after 8 weeks was back home, a little frailer but mentally sharp as a pin and independently living once more. He died peacefully some six or so months later.
Not everyone is such a success, but older frail folk are to be appreciated not treated as inconvenient. Few reach such a grand age without having done something interesting.
@Foxy...for every one of those anecdotal stories of some elderly person making a recovery at death's door there are many thousands of elderly people who die miserably.
Would you in a million, billion years consider putting an IV tube on a terribly ill, suffering pet just to prolong it's life when a simple and humane injection can be used. You would be considered quite mad if you chose to.
Very sad, but the alternative to euthanasia is much better terminal care.
Death, even with cancer or dementia need not be painful or undignified.
Personally, I am against euthanasia, but do believe that there is a point where it is time to call it a day on curative measures, and move to pallative ones.
I am reminded of a patient of mine, who was a Dunkirk survivor, who fell down the stairs at age 92 and broke his cervical spine. He was in a great deal of pain, and was treated with conservative measures. He became confused and disorientated, through pain and medication. Slowly he pulled through, and after 8 weeks was back home, a little frailer but mentally sharp as a pin and independently living once more. He died peacefully some six or so months later.
Not everyone is such a success, but older frail folk are to be appreciated not treated as inconvenient. Few reach such a grand age without having done something interesting.
@Foxy...for every one of those anecdotal stories of some elderly person making a recovery at death's door there are many thousands of elderly people who die miserably.
Would you in a million, billion years consider putting an IV tube on a terribly ill, suffering pet just to prolong it's life when a simple and humane injection can be used. You would be considered quite mad if you chose to.
I understand what you are saying. I had to have my dog euthanased in December.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on more than just healthcare and pensions etc you may have a point but you well and truly don't. If we were to return to a hypothecated system that we never had then you would have to slash pension or healthcare spending dramatically.
No, it is entirely correct. The whole point of National Insurance was to fund health, pensions and unemployment and it still raises £125 billion a year
The whole point is it has moved away from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
Hypotecation has a very specific meaning in governmental terms. It’s not the same as “stated purpose” which is how you are interpreting it
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
Not everyone can afford to go to Switzerland- and personally I think I should have the right to die in my own country surrounded by family and friends if I want to. I understand also that family members who may assist with suicide can then face prosecution for enabling...
It seems obvious to me that the current system is wrong but I suppose it is a generational thing.
The king's doctor in 1936 ensured he had a relatively humane death, i.e. he administered the right drugs a.k.a. euthanasia.
This mode of death is now only available to pets and farm animals, or the lucky humans who get to 98 in good health and have a massive stroke.
Doctors should be obliged by statute not to strive officiously to keep alive. This used to be in their professional code of conduct.
What professional code of conduct? That is a quotation from a poem by AH Clough - a rather heavy-handed satire whose point is that not striving to keep alive is morally wrong.
'I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days and faced their situation with dignity.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
I cannot even begin to unpick what a crass, insensitive and idiotic post you have just made to someone who has just come back from living through this experience. OK...my personal situation withstanding...my mum died after stroke and I had to fight against a huge amount of pressure from siblings to nasally feed her which in all likelihood would have caused her to die of either of pneumonia or drowning. My father in law died last week with vascular dementia, losing in his last months and weeks the ability to swallow...both slowly starved to death, spending their last weeks hallucinating and in great pain. None were fit to leave their beds to hop on a plane to Switzerland. Their was no dignity in either of their deaths I'm afraid. They were horribly emaciated, and both terribly in pain because of bed sores and various ailments. Their mouths were cracked and dry, bleeding, their breath foul...they were both hallucinating. The worst is when you saw them wake up and look at the fear in their eyes when they had some comprehension of their situation.
Dignitas is horrible. It is a clinic. Many people go there when they are fit to travel and it is still far too early for them to die, but if they dare to leave it longer they are faced with the terrifying prospect of dying like my mum or father in law.
I had two dogs put down and I got the vet to come to my house. I refused to take them into a clinic to end their lives.'
Well whether you organise your own death in Dignitas or in the home it is largely the same process with the same result. I have nothing but empathy with the situation of your late relatives but I don't see why failing to be a great enthusiast for euthanasia should suddenly make you culpable of an empathy by pass?
If Bolton does go let us not forget anti Islam campaign Anne Marie-Waters was runner up in their last leadership campaign, if she runs again she may win and move UKIP from an anti EU to anti radical Islam focus
Nige will have to be dragged back in the same way as the nomination for speaker gets dragged to the chair...
I think if he comes back he will wait until 2019 when the likely concessions for a deal are paramount
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Even that is political i think. I for instance am fine with euthanasia - others aren’t. Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t. Etc etc.
At some level everything is political
But this is meant to be the big picture issues rather than the details.
In addition it’s *party* political that’s the issue not political per se
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on moaway from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
Hypotecation has a very specific meaning in governmental terms. It’s not the same as “stated purpose” which is how you are interpreting it
Well whether you organise your own death in Dignitas or in the home it is largely the same process with largely the same result. I have nothing but empathy with the situation of your late relatives but I don't see why failing to be a great enthusiast for euthanasia should suddenly make you culpable of an empathy by pass?
You are a gold mine of misinformation. Have a think: why would Dignitas exist if it was possible to arrange ”largely the same process with largely the same result” at home?
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Even that is political i think. I for instance am fine with euthanasia - others aren’t. Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t. Etc etc.
Euthanasia - great in theory, would suck in practice. The possibilities of abuse are endless.
I'd just like to express particular sympathy for tyson and anyone else (I've not read the whole thread) who has had this experience recently.People have different views on Dignitas and euthanasia (I'm in favour, though I used not to be), but above all it's just an utterly awful situation.
Spent the weekend skiing with a friend who is a major Democrat donor and very plugged in. A few observations:
* nomination is wide open - party leadership has no idea who will be the nominee * moulton will run * warren would be a terrible president (she is a great sniper from the side lines but doesn’t have executive background) * doesn’t like Kathi from New York or Karen Gilliband
* Trump will run... this chap thinks he will win...
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on moaway from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
Hypotecation has a very specific meaning in governmental terms. It’s not the same as “stated purpose” which is how you are interpreting it
Well whether you organise your own death in Dignitas or in the home it is largely the same process with largely the same result. I have nothing but empathy with the situation of your late relatives but I don't see why failing to be a great enthusiast for euthanasia should suddenly make you culpable of an empathy by pass?
You are a gold mine of misinformation. Have a think: why would Dignitas exist if it was possible to arrange ”largely the same process with largely the same result” at home?
In Switzerland it is legal to take assisted suicide at home provided the recipient takes an active role in the administration of the lethal drugs that will kill them
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on moaway from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
Hypotecation has a very specific meaning in governmental terms. It’s not the same as “stated purpose” which is how you are interpreting it
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on more than just healthcare and pensions etc you may have a point but you well and truly don't. If we were to return to a hypothecated system that we never had then you would have to slash pension or healthcare spending dramatically.
No, it is entirely correct. The whole point of National Insurance was to fund health, pensions and unemployment and it still raises £125 billion a year
The whole point is it has moved away from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
National Insurance raising £125 billion a year sounds impressive if you don't think at all about it.
If healthcare, pensions and unemployment combined cost less than £125 billion you might have a point that we should spend it all on those areas. Except ...
Healthcare costs £119 billion a year Pensions cost £96 billion a year
Even without considering unemployment you'd need to slash healthcare and pension expenditure by nearly half to fund it just with National Insurance contributions. So you are completely wrong.
Listen to the left and we've had a lost decade and corporation tax cuts but the figures speak for themselves.
Is that inflation adjusted?
No it isn't it is in purely nominal terms but inflation has been on the floor for most of that decade and it doesn't explain the rapid rises in receipts in recent years or us now raising a third more than we did a decade ago before the crash.
Tory Defence Secretary has often been a tricky brief, not as hi profile/glamorous as it was in the Cold War and full of banana skins like massive cost overruns, unruly generals and occasional grievng parents and families, Liam Fox fell foul of it in 2011 (remember that resignation) and only Hammond seems to have had a fair crack at it. Fingers Fallon is also testament to its trickery....
Williamson will need to do very well in this post to survive and prosper in the Cabinet, personally I think he wont flourish, the MOD already patronise him (think Private Pike)
The UK equivalent of Dignitas would probably be PFI'ed to Serco and you'd come out healthier than when you went in.
Could be worse, could be Carillion.
(Watch for announcement before the stock market opens, they could be about to go under).
As an aside, last night I was reading a rail magazine from last October. It included an advertorial for Carillion stating the amount of work they do for Network Rail Infrastructure Projects - the part of NR that does renewals. They do about 100 big projects a year for that part of NR alone.
If they were to fail, there would have to be some firm decisions made to avoid problems on the rails - the work still needs doing, and often cannot be delayed.
I can't remember what problems there were when Jarvis rail failed, although a mate who worked for them was quite glad ...
The UK equivalent of Dignitas would probably be PFI'ed to Serco and you'd come out healthier than when you went in.
Could be worse, could be Carillion.
(Watch for announcement before the stock market opens, they could be about to go under).
As an aside, last night I was reading a rail magazine from last October. It included an advertorial for Carillion stating the amount of work they do for Network Rail Infrastructure Projects - the part of NR that does renewals. They do about 100 big projects a year for that part of NR alone.
If they were to fail, there would have to be some firm decisions made to avoid problems on the rails - the work still needs doing, and often cannot be delayed.
I can't remember what problems there were when Jarvis rail failed, although a mate who worked for them was quite glad ...
The standard process would be that the administrators turn up and replace the board, they look through the books and decide what to do with various assets and liabilities, and whether it’s possible to raise more money by selling the company as a whole or by breaking it up.
Most of the projects will likely get sold on (for considerably less than they’re worth) which is good news for their competitors and potentially an opportunity for government to buy out some of the crappier PFI schemes. There might be delays of a few weeks as all the paperwork and TUPE gets done.
First liability is to pay wages and pensions (although the latter will almost certainly end up bailed out by government) and the shareholders are last in line so most likely get wiped out (they were already over 90% down year on year anyway). Yours and my pension funds are probably shareholders though, which shows what a right mess Gordon Brown made of the whole thing.
Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
If you live in Cowbridge you will be treated at Bridgend or maybe Llantrisant...neither if which has a Conservative MP.
The UK equivalent of Dignitas would probably be PFI'ed to Serco and you'd come out healthier than when you went in.
Could be worse, could be Carillion.
(Watch for announcement before the stock market opens, they could be about to go under).
As an aside, last night I was reading a rail magazine from last October. It included an advertorial for Carillion stating the amount of work they do for Network Rail Infrastructure Projects - the part of NR that does renewals. They do about 100 big projects a year for that part of NR alone.
If they were to fail, there would have to be some firm decisions made to avoid problems on the rails - the work still needs doing, and often cannot be delayed.
I can't remember what problems there were when Jarvis rail failed, although a mate who worked for them was quite glad ...
The standard process would be that the administrators turn up and replace the board, they look through the books and decide what to do with various assets and liabilities, and whether it’s possible to raise more money by selling the company as a whole or by breaking it up.
Most of the projects will likely get sold on (for considerably less than they’re worth) which is good news for their competitors and potentially an opportunity for government to buy out some of the crappier PFI schemes. There might be delays of a few weeks as all the paperwork and TUPE gets done.
First liability is to pay wages and pensions (although the latter will almost certainly end up bailed out by government) and the shareholders are last in line so most likely get wiped out (they were already over 90% down year on year anyway). Yours and my pension funds are probably shareholders though, which shows what a right mess Gordon Brown made of the whole thing.
The UK equivalent of Dignitas would probably be PFI'ed to Serco and you'd come out healthier than when you went in.
Could be worse, could be Carillion.
(Watch for announcement before the stock market opens, they could be about to go under).
As an aside, last night I was reading a rail magazine from last October. It included an advertorial for Carillion stating the amount of work they do for Network Rail Infrastructure Projects - the part of NR that does renewals. They do about 100 big projects a year for that part of NR alone.
If they were to fail, there would have to be some firm decisions made to avoid problems on the rails - the work still needs doing, and often cannot be delayed.
I can't remember what problems there were when Jarvis rail failed, although a mate who worked for them was quite glad ...
The standard process would be that the administrators turn up and replace the board, they look through the books and decide what to do with various assets and liabilities, and whether it’s possible to raise more money by selling the company as a whole or by breaking it up.
Most of the projects will likely get sold on (for considerably less than they’re worth) which is good news for their competitors and potentially an opportunity for government to buy out some of the crappier PFI schemes. There might be delays of a few weeks as all the paperwork and TUPE gets done.
First liability is to pay wages and pensions (although the latter will almost certainly end up bailed out by government) and the shareholders are last in line so most likely get wiped out (they were already over 90% down year on year anyway). Yours and my pension funds are probably shareholders though, which shows what a right mess Gordon Brown made of the whole thing.
Thanks.
I should also add that the first decisions to make are over “critical” parts of the operation, things like meals on wheels services and operational contracts with hospitals etc. I suspect the administrators will quickly agree to keep these running at any cost while they sort the mess out, clearly it being in everyone’s interest for any transition to be as orderly as possible. Any rail projects where the line isn’t currently closed will be somewhat less of a priority.
The way these things often work is that the administrators (usually a large firm of accountants) get the call from the board late on a Friday, and spend the whole weekend working in secret before the announcement on Monday morning - so they’ve got some idea already of the challenges they face.
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
Possibly. It depends on whether he values leading the apparently unleadable rump of UKIP, or cavorting around with a glamour model less than half his age - for whom he dumped his wife a fortnight ago.
Very sad, but the alternative to euthanasia is much better terminal care.
Death, even with cancer or dementia need not be painful or undignified.
Personally, I am against euthanasia, but do believe that there is a point where it is time to call it a day on curative measures, and move to pallative ones.
I am reminded of a patient of mine, who was a Dunkirk survivor, who fell down the stairs at age 92 and broke his cervical spine. He was in a great deal of pain, and was treated with conservative measures. He became confused and disorientated, through pain and medication. Slowly he pulled through, and after 8 weeks was back home, a little frailer but mentally sharp as a pin and independently living once more. He died peacefully some six or so months later.
Not everyone is such a success, but older frail folk are to be appreciated not treated as inconvenient. Few reach such a grand age without having done something interesting.
The problem with terminal care is the cost in personnel and money, times the increasing number of people who will require it. I have to declare an interest in that a few years ago, I was with my father as principal carer when he passed. The carers were brilliant, coming 4 times a day, to change and keep him clean, but with dementia, he had no memory of speaking, walking, talking or control of his bladder or bowels. When his body decided enough was enough, it took 4 days to end. My father, who loved life, arguments and activity, had left before he did. There are only a small pool of people able to help continuously in the terminal care and passing of their patients, not sure if I could do it myself and retain my sanity.
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
Possibly. It depends on whether he values leading the apparently unleadable rump of UKIP, or cavorting around with a glamour model less than half his age - for whom he dumped his wife a fortnight ago.
In general I don't think political parties are entitled to tell people who they live with. I don't think I'll be suspected of sympathy with UKIP or Mr Bolton or his dodgy-sounding girlfriend. But he could reasonably say that her views are her own and they disagree on many of these matters. It's not as though he was the King and his consort had constant official duties where she might say something awkward - as, after all, is sometimes the case to a lesser degree with our actual monarch.
In a vaguely similar case, my dad was a member of an evangelical group (Moral Rearmament) after the war, and they were dismayed to learn he was engaged to my mum, who was a light-hearted society girl. They told him he had to choose between her and damnation or the movement and virtue. He told them to take a running jump, and married happily for the rest of his life.
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
Possibly. It depends on whether he values leading the apparently unleadable rump of UKIP, or cavorting around with a glamour model less than half his age - for whom he dumped his wife a fortnight ago.
In general I don't think political parties are entitled to tell people who they live with. I don't think I'll be suspected of sympathy with UKIP or Mr Bolton or his dodgy-sounding girlfriend. But he could reasonably say that her views are her own and they disagree on many of these matters. It's not as though he was the King and his consort had constant official duties where she might say something awkward - as, after all, is sometimes the case to a lesser degree with our actual monarch.
In a vaguely similar case, my dad was a member of an evangelical group (Moral Rearmament) after the war, and they were dismayed to learn he was engaged to my mum, who was a light-hearted society girl. They told him he had to choose between her and damnation or the movement and virtue. He told them to take a running jump, and married happily for the rest of his life.
I agree with you, but it seems that Mr Bolton was yesterday given a similar ultimatum by senior UKIP members fed up with them only ever making the news with negative stories.
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
Possibly. It depends on whether he values leading the apparently unleadable rump of UKIP, or cavorting around with a glamour model less than half his age - for whom he dumped his wife a fortnight ago.
In general I don't think political parties are entitled to tell people who they live with. I don't think I'll be suspected of sympathy with UKIP or Mr Bolton or his dodgy-sounding girlfriend. But he could reasonably say that her views are her own and they disagree on many of these matters. It's not as though he was the King and his consort had constant official duties where she might say something awkward - as, after all, is sometimes the case to a lesser degree with our actual monarch.
In a vaguely similar case, my dad was a member of an evangelical group (Moral Rearmament) after the war, and they were dismayed to learn he was engaged to my mum, who was a light-hearted society girl. They told him he had to choose between her and damnation or the movement and virtue. He told them to take a running jump, and married happily for the rest of his life.
The trouble is the Royal couple (Harry and MM) are not acceptable by any measure for malicious web chat esp from a UKIP member (who I suspect are the most Royalist of all our political partie)s. I get the impression that H Bolton has never been accepted by the near-rans who will use this yet again for another Putsch.
The trouble is with just over a year left on the MEP gravy train it will leave just the likes of Reckless, Hamilton and a few others in Wales to carry the torch unless something comes along to propel them back into the consciousness......a bit like Nigel F's pondering over a 2nd referendum? I sometimes wonder whether Nigel will yet again get a crack at the UKIP helm
I should also add that the first decisions to make are over “critical” parts of the operation, things like meals on wheels services and operational contracts with hospitals etc. I suspect the administrators will quickly agree to keep these running at any cost while they sort the mess out, clearly it being in everyone’s interest for any transition to be as orderly as possible. Any rail projects where the line isn’t currently closed will be somewhat less of a priority.
The way these things often work is that the administrators (usually a large firm of accountants) get the call from the board late on a Friday, and spend the whole weekend working in secret before the announcement on Monday morning - so they’ve got some idea already of the challenges they face.
Again, thanks. They just said on BBC Breakfast that the government has committed to provide funding to keep services going whilst the mess is sorted out. This seems reasonable.
BTW, did you see that 717 crash in Turkey yesterday. The passengers should buy lottery tickets ...
Just a thought, was it the problems with Carillion that made any reshuffle of the cabinet a damp squib? Greyling has a few problems with HS2 contracts from last summer, Hunt with PFI hospitals, Justice with 50 or so PFI Prisons, and many others..... To promote or remove ministers just before the faecal matter impacted with the impeller, may some would suggest, could cause major problems in presentation to a suspicious media and electorate.
I'd have thought this story was unreservedly good news for Gavin Williamson. He's being talked about as a contender, however unlikely. Would that be happening otherwise?
I hear H Bolton is on the rocks this morning over his (ex-?) girlfriend's tweets......are we facing another UKIP leadership election before the Summer?
A sexy, although racist, girl-friend, his third(?) wife or UKIP? Sounds a man capabable of fine judgement.
I should also add that the first decisions to make are over “critical” parts of the operation, things like meals on wheels services and operational contracts with hospitals etc. I suspect the administrators will quickly agree to keep these running at any cost while they sort the mess out, clearly it being in everyone’s interest for any transition to be as orderly as possible. Any rail projects where the line isn’t currently closed will be somewhat less of a priority.
The way these things often work is that the administrators (usually a large firm of accountants) get the call from the board late on a Friday, and spend the whole weekend working in secret before the announcement on Monday morning - so they’ve got some idea already of the challenges they face.
Again, thanks. They just said on BBC Breakfast that the government has committed to provide funding to keep services going whilst the mess is sorted out. This seems reasonable.
BTW, did you see that 717 crash in Turkey yesterday. The passengers should buy lottery tickets ...
Good to hear, yes there’s usually a lot that goes on behind the scenes in the run up to this sort of announcement, the business department and DoH don’t want anything critical interrupted even if (like with the banks) they have to underwrite things for a short while.
Yes, interesting accident, possibly a nose wheel steering failure or something wrong with throttles and/or thrust reversers that caused asymmetric thrust at low speed. They would normally make a u-turn on the runway at that point, first turning towards the sea then back around to the right. 737 by the way. Sadly a Turkish plane crashing in Turkey means we’ll never get an accident report worthy of the name.
Liquidation as opposed to administration. That’s more serious, means they’ve given up all hope of keeping the company together.
Worse. It means that there are not clear and easy sections of the company that an Administrator could hope to offload fairly quickly as a going concern with TUPE rights preserved for the staff. It suggests that the problems the company has are pretty endemic. There are going to be a lot of job losses here.
Comments
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5339046/boris-johnson-warns-allies-that-brexit-is-still-far-from-certain-and-they-face-a-big-fight-to-deliver-it/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance
If most voters want a hypothecated tax to pay for the NHS, as polls show they clearly do, then it would actually be undemocratic to ignore them
I ask because I am at that middle age bucket when friends are starting to die of cancers, and parents are passing away. My elderly father often says he believes it to be inimical that so much is spent on extending life at his age when younger people should have higher priority. I asked if he was volunteering his age group for euthanasia, but he just said palliative care should be cheap: his grandfather had morphine, whisky, claret and the home service.
http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/national-insurance-contributions/
Of course with the retirement age rising to 67 more baby boomers will be paying National Insurance for longer than they do.
The whole point is it has moved away from being hypothecated and away from original principles with the revenue being used from every government department just as in income tax rather than just pensions and healthcare, so you are wrong.
In my sister's case she was diagnosed with terminal cancer and put under tge Wales NHS continuing care scheme for over 2 years before her death at a annual nursing home charge of £38,500. If she had had dementia she would have had to sell her flat down to £23,500 of residual value.
Furthermore, her pension was forfeited to the state
64% of Healthcare there is funded by the government, according to this analysis.
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2016/january/government-funds-nearly-two-thirds-of-us-health-care-costs-american-journal-of-pub
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42682533
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/14/medical-records-thousands-patients-handed-us-firms-connected/
He has no experience, and has never managed a team.
Basically, he's wasted as Wales football manager. He seems to have the right qualifications to be in the House of Commons, though.
In this US study, about 22% of healthcare spend was in the final year of life:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1464043/
Of course, no one is certain when spending that money that it is the last year, until the grim reaper pops up. Until then it could just be a blip, with many years to go.
As a mid 50s cancer survivor (but you never quite know) I would swap some of the right to medical care after 65 for a guarantee of full on palliative care with a promise of a Brompton cocktail to finish on, but sadly Shipman severely limited the chances of that.
Which reminds me: the incompetent Scott of the Antarctic had literally pounds of morphine for pain relief and cocaine for snow blindness in his medical kit. In his position I would have taken the obvious step of mixing the two in lethal quantities.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/left-sees-laura-pidcock-as-successor-to-jeremy-corbyn-w7gd7drh3
The US, Sweden, SwitZerland, Norway, Netherlands, Germand, Denmark, Belgiu, France...
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PUBL.ZS
Many of those countries have much higher private spending on healthcare also.
Some people think fertility treatment should be part of NHS provision, others don’t.
Etc etc.
However the overall take is flat as a % of national income (which makes more sense)
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9207
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jan/14/david-lammy-criticises-sadiq-khan-over-vow-to-increase-stop-and-search
Long may it continue
And I wish everyone a pleasant sleep - good night
I’m confident it would be possible to design a system that made the risk of abuse very close to zero.
http://www.rabaresearch.com/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5268721/UKIP-leaders-model-lover-25-sparks-fresh-outrage.html
Euthanasia - great in theory, would suck in practice. The possibilities of abuse are endless.
@Ishmael
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack....
The mind boggles at what a benign context is!
But great comedy value...
I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack....
I can feel your pain and am truly sorry.
My sisters death was not pleasant as her cancer had spread to her brain and she was in a bad way in the last few weeks before she died, eventually in A &E even with a DNR in place
'I'll tell you what sucks in practice, after having just experienced it twice in two years, is seeing someone you love dearly die miserably and in great agony, hallucinating, screaming for their mothers for days on end...retching on their own phlegm, their bodies horribly shrunken through starvation.....
No animal would be treated in the same way many elderly people die.....the kind of unimaginable abuse that awaits the like of you and me and many others on this site who will die miserably when we have lost capacity and do not simply succumb to a heart attack.... '
Both my mothers' parents died in hospices, it was not easy at times for them but they had excellent care and assistance in their final days and faced their situation with dignity.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
It seems obvious to me that the current system is wrong but I suppose it is a generational thing.
My sisters death was not pleasant as her cancer had spread to her brain and she was in a bad way in the last few weeks before she died, eventually in A &E even with a DNR in place
Thanks Big G...that is really appreciated.....
Very sad, but the alternative to euthanasia is much better terminal care.
Death, even with cancer or dementia need not be painful or undignified.
Personally, I am against euthanasia, but do believe that there is a point where it is time to call it a day on curative measures, and move to pallative ones.
I am reminded of a patient of mine, who was a Dunkirk survivor, who fell down the stairs at age 92 and broke his cervical spine. He was in a great deal of pain, and was treated with conservative measures. He became confused and disorientated, through pain and medication. Slowly he pulled through, and after 8 weeks was back home, a little frailer but mentally sharp as a pin and independently living once more. He died peacefully some six or so months later.
Not everyone is such a success, but older frail folk are to be appreciated not treated as inconvenient. Few reach such a grand age without having done something interesting.
This mode of death is now only available to pets and farm animals, or the lucky humans who get to 98 in good health and have a massive stroke.
Doctors should be obliged by statute not to strive officiously to keep alive. This used to be in their professional code of conduct.
If you want euthanasia then just head off to Dignitas in Switzerland
@HYUFD who has had an empathy bypass
I cannot even begin to unpick what a crass, insensitive and idiotic post you have just made to someone who has just come back from living through this experience. OK...my personal situation withstanding...my mum died after stroke and I had to fight against a huge amount of pressure from siblings to nasally feed her which in all likelihood would have caused her to die of either of pneumonia or drowning. My father in law died last week with vascular dementia, losing in his last months and weeks the ability to swallow...both slowly starved to death, spending their last weeks hallucinating and in great pain. None were fit to leave their beds to hop on a plane to Switzerland. Their was no dignity in either of their deaths I'm afraid. They were horribly emaciated, and both terribly in pain because of bed sores and various ailments. Their mouths were cracked and dry, bleeding, their breath foul...they were both hallucinating. The worst is when you saw them wake up and look at the fear in their eyes when they had some comprehension of their situation.
Dignitas is horrible. It is a clinic. Many people go there when they are fit to travel and it is still far too early for them to die, but if they dare to leave it longer they are faced with the terrifying prospect of dying like my mum or father in law.
I had two dogs put down and I got the vet to come to my house. I refused to take them into a clinic to end their lives.
Would you in a million, billion years consider putting an IV tube on a terribly ill, suffering pet just to prolong it's life when a simple and humane injection can be used. You would be considered quite mad if you chose to.
I cannot even begin to unpick what a crass, insensitive and idiotic post you have just made to someone who has just come back from living through this experience. OK...my personal situation withstanding...my mum died after stroke and I had to fight against a huge amount of pressure from siblings to nasally feed her which in all likelihood would have caused her to die of either of pneumonia or drowning. My father in law died last week with vascular dementia, losing in his last months and weeks the ability to swallow...both slowly starved to death, spending their last weeks hallucinating and in great pain. None were fit to leave their beds to hop on a plane to Switzerland. Their was no dignity in either of their deaths I'm afraid. They were horribly emaciated, and both terribly in pain because of bed sores and various ailments. Their mouths were cracked and dry, bleeding, their breath foul...they were both hallucinating. The worst is when you saw them wake up and look at the fear in their eyes when they had some comprehension of their situation.
Dignitas is horrible. It is a clinic. Many people go there when they are fit to travel and it is still far too early for them to die, but if they dare to leave it longer they are faced with the terrifying prospect of dying like my mum or father in law.
I had two dogs put down and I got the vet to come to my house. I refused to take them into a clinic to end their lives.'
Well whether you organise your own death in Dignitas or in the home it is largely the same process with the same result. I have nothing but empathy with the situation of your late relatives but I don't see why failing to be a great enthusiast for euthanasia should suddenly make you culpable of an empathy by pass?
But this is meant to be the big picture issues rather than the details.
In addition it’s *party* political that’s the issue not political per se
* nomination is wide open - party leadership has no idea who will be the nominee
* moulton will run
* warren would be a terrible president (she is a great sniper from the side lines but doesn’t have executive background)
* doesn’t like Kathi from New York or Karen Gilliband
* Trump will run... this chap thinks he will win...
If healthcare, pensions and unemployment combined cost less than £125 billion you might have a point that we should spend it all on those areas. Except ...
Healthcare costs £119 billion a year
Pensions cost £96 billion a year
Even without considering unemployment you'd need to slash healthcare and pension expenditure by nearly half to fund it just with National Insurance contributions. So you are completely wrong.
Williamson will need to do very well in this post to survive and prosper in the Cabinet, personally I think he wont flourish, the MOD already patronise him (think Private Pike)
(Watch for announcement before the stock market opens, they could be about to go under).
If they were to fail, there would have to be some firm decisions made to avoid problems on the rails - the work still needs doing, and often cannot be delayed.
I can't remember what problems there were when Jarvis rail failed, although a mate who worked for them was quite glad ...
Most of the projects will likely get sold on (for considerably less than they’re worth) which is good news for their competitors and potentially an opportunity for government to buy out some of the crappier PFI schemes. There might be delays of a few weeks as all the paperwork and TUPE gets done.
First liability is to pay wages and pensions (although the latter will almost certainly end up bailed out by government) and the shareholders are last in line so most likely get wiped out (they were already over 90% down year on year anyway). Yours and my pension funds are probably shareholders though, which shows what a right mess Gordon Brown made of the whole thing.
The way these things often work is that the administrators (usually a large firm of accountants) get the call from the board late on a Friday, and spend the whole weekend working in secret before the announcement on Monday morning - so they’ve got some idea already of the challenges they face.
There are only a small pool of people able to help continuously in the terminal care and passing of their patients, not sure if I could do it myself and retain my sanity.
In a vaguely similar case, my dad was a member of an evangelical group (Moral Rearmament) after the war, and they were dismayed to learn he was engaged to my mum, who was a light-hearted society girl. They told him he had to choose between her and damnation or the movement and virtue. He told them to take a running jump, and married happily for the rest of his life.
The trouble is with just over a year left on the MEP gravy train it will leave just the likes of Reckless, Hamilton and a few others in Wales to carry the torch unless something comes along to propel them back into the consciousness......a bit like Nigel F's pondering over a 2nd referendum? I sometimes wonder whether Nigel will yet again get a crack at the UKIP helm
BTW, did you see that 717 crash in Turkey yesterday. The passengers should buy lottery tickets ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-42681305/plane-skids-off-runway-at-trabzon-airport-in-turkey
Yes, interesting accident, possibly a nose wheel steering failure or something wrong with throttles and/or thrust reversers that caused asymmetric thrust at low speed. They would normally make a u-turn on the runway at that point, first turning towards the sea then back around to the right. 737 by the way. Sadly a Turkish plane crashing in Turkey means we’ll never get an accident report worthy of the name.