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    TGOHF said:

    John Curtice has received a Knighthood.

    Mrs May is also trying to buy off the 1922.

    They Bee Gees fans ?
    4 of the ‘22 have got gongs.

    Dame Darcy Bussell is a great choice.
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    Theresa May moves to cement her position as Tory leader by giving top honours to half of the ruling board of the 1922 committee of Tory MPs

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/theresa-may-moves-cement-position-tory-leader-giving-top-honours/
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Theresa May moves to cement her position as Tory leader by giving top honours to half of the ruling board of the 1922 committee of Tory MPs

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/theresa-may-moves-cement-position-tory-leader-giving-top-honours/

    No honour for you?
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    tlg86 said:

    Theresa May moves to cement her position as Tory leader by giving top honours to half of the ruling board of the 1922 committee of Tory MPs

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/theresa-may-moves-cement-position-tory-leader-giving-top-honours/

    No honour for you?
    Still waiting.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:

    Theresa May moves to cement her position as Tory leader by giving top honours to half of the ruling board of the 1922 committee of Tory MPs

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/theresa-may-moves-cement-position-tory-leader-giving-top-honours/

    No honour for you?
    Still waiting.
    Looking at the list, I reckon you need to get on some quango or something.
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    WHat a night of darts!!!!!!!!!!
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Protests over alleged corruption and rising prices spread to Tehran

    Angry eruptions proliferate after police disperse spontaneous demonstration in city of Kermanshah in western Iran"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/29/iranian-police-disperse-anti-government-protests
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    John Curtice has received a Knighthood.

    Mrs May is also trying to buy off the 1922.

    Should have been a peerage :D
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Off-topic:

    An interesting story combining gaming and (probably) American police incompetence:

    https://www.rawstory.com/2017/12/innocent-man-instantly-shot-by-police-after-gamer-feud-over-2-results-in-swatting-prank-at-kansas-home/

    How awful. I hope the person who called it in is locked away for a very long time.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?
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    TGOHF said:

    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?

    Working class uprising over inflation.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    TGOHF said:

    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?

    Bit of a coincidence that today the draconian restrictions on women's dress were relaxed in Tehran for the first time since 1979.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?

    Working class uprising over inflation.
    I’ll wait to see who Corbyn supports then hope the other guys prevail.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,156

    TGOHF said:

    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?

    Working class uprising over inflation.
    Not just inflation, it seems.
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    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?

    Working class uprising over inflation.
    I’ll wait to see who Corbyn supports then hope the other guys prevail.
    Iran is a curious country.

    One of my Father's colleague hailed from Tehran.

    Said especially under The Shah, Iran had been one of the most liberal countries in the world, not just the Muslim world.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2017
    The pitch in the cricket is looking as boring and predictable as the last Jedi. Its a good job the darts was exciting as this test match has draw written in massive letters.
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    tlg86 said:

    Theresa May moves to cement her position as Tory leader by giving top honours to half of the ruling board of the 1922 committee of Tory MPs

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/theresa-may-moves-cement-position-tory-leader-giving-top-honours/

    No honour for you?
    Still waiting.
    Rumour is that Mike is to receive an OGH.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    edited December 2017
    Marc Almond has received an OBE.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,156

    Marc Almond's has received an OBE.

    His wife, his dog or what?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,615

    Charles said:

    Adonis is one of several Metropolitan elite anti Brexit crusaders including Osborne, Clegg, Umunna, Blair, Mandelson etc and their views are at the opposite extreme of Farage.

    To accuse TM of being a Ukipper is just hysterical and as far as I am concerned a plague on all of them

    I nearly made the point in this article that the Conservatives are currently implementing UKIP's 2015 manifesto piecemeal. Lord Adonis is correct in substance.

    I find it very difficult to believe he has only just found this out. Given that, I am struggling with the idea he has genuinely quit over Brexit.

    Oh I'm sure his flexible opinions have not suddenly found their breaking point. Even a careerist can be right though.

    Looking at his letter it seems clear the real issue is a profound disagreement with Chris Grayling. There seem to be a number of very worrying aspects to the bail-out decision the minister took and these deserve serious scrutiny. In leading on Brexit, though, Adonis has made a serious mistake and given the government all the material it needs to portray him as nothing more than a malcontent. He has made a fool of himself and ensured that Grayling will probably ride out what could have been a very difficult period - and that the taxpayer will end up heavily subsidising private companies who have proved themselves incapable of running efficient businesses.
    Yes - that had passed me by before - but as you observe as its buried in a scream of consciousness rant about Brexit (and whatever May's faults to describe her as UKIP is hysterically over the top) - it will get lost as the ripples close over his head for the final time....
    Although his main complaint seems to be "Chris Grayling didn't use my blueprint which would have allowed me to seem more important than I really am"
    FWIW, I think there is personal animosity between Grayling and Adonis.
    Had he led with that he'd have had most people's sympathy...
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    geoffw said:

    Marc Almond's has received an OBE.

    His wife, his dog or what?
    I'm blaming auto-correct
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,156
    Or are you scopegating it?
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    Marc Almond has received an OBE.

    Awesome news!


    Brexitter
    -------------

    New words by Sunil, original music by Marc Almond & Dave Ball.

    Friday morning going slow
    I'm watching the election show
    Lots of Ladbrokes slips on the floor
    Memories of the night before
    Out knocking up and having fun
    Now I've stopped reading The Sun
    Waiting for the results to show
    But why I voted no one knows

    Voting, polling
    Blogging, trolling
    And now I'm all alone
    In Brexit Land
    My only home

    I think it's time to write a thread
    To vent the bemusement in my head
    Spent my money on online bookies
    Got nowt here but all the cookies
    Clean my suit and my rosette
    Election promises to forget
    Start campaigning all over again
    Kid myself I'm having fun

    Voting, polling
    Blogging, trolling
    And now I'm all alone
    In Brexit Land
    My only home

    Looking out from my worldview
    I've really nothing else to do
    Seems like I have started fretting
    Let's read Political Betting
    Forget The Mirror and The Times
    The battle bus with such great lines
    Look around and I can see
    A thousand punters just like me

    Voting, polling
    Blogging, trolling
    And now I'm all alone
    In Brexit Land
    My only home

    Voting, polling
    Blogging, trolling
    And now I'm all alone
    In Brexit Land
    My only home

    (I'm waiting for Brexit
    Or am I wasting time)


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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    This Iran thing got legs ? And are the rebels the good guys or madder mullahs ?

    Bit of a coincidence that today the draconian restrictions on women's dress were relaxed in Tehran for the first time since 1979.
    According to one BBC report, it started as an anti-Rouhani (reformer) protest fomented by hardliners, on the basis that the nuclear deal hadn't produced the promised benefits, but it had spread to people who blame the regime in general for failure to improve living standards, including the religious leadership.
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    marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Deputy Speaker Hoyle knighted - that will go down well with Berkow
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    After a really good to the grand tour season 2, this weeks episode is so bad it is nearly as bad as top gear!
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    marke09 said:

    Deputy Speaker Hoyle knighted - that will go down well with Berkow

    In the game of oneupmanship Bercow's going to get a peerage in a few years.
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    After a really good to the grand tour season 2, this weeks episode is so bad it is nearly as bad as top gear!

    The high point in that episode was the dissing of Alfie Boe's fans.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    AndyJS said:

    Gone Girl on BBC1, one of my favourite films from the last couple of years or so.

    No accounting for taste - I saw it praised to high heaven, and though it was well acted I thought it an absolutely stock thriller, nothing standout about it all, and with a really stupid ending.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    So, any really shocking honours for people to get worked up angry about/righteously defend?
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    Well done prof curtice..... the truth is...

    The boy done good.
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    After a really good to the grand tour season 2, this weeks episode is so bad it is nearly as bad as top gear!

    The high point in that episode was the dissing of Alfie Boe's fans.
    I enjoyed the last Jedi far more than this weeks episode.
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    kle4 said:

    So, any really shocking honours for people to get worked up angry about/righteously defend?

    Mrs May trying to buy off the 1922 is the only contentious thing at the moment.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    marke09 said:

    Deputy Speaker Hoyle knighted - that will go down well with Berkow

    In the game of oneupmanship Bercow's going to get a peerage in a few years.
    Well now, Bercow is not a fan of tradition, he should welcome not automatically being offered one when he stands down as Speaker.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    kle4 said:

    So, any really shocking honours for people to get worked up angry about/righteously defend?

    Mrs May trying to buy off the 1922 is the only contentious thing at the moment.
    They'd care more about being called sir than Brexit? There's a word for that.
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    Outrage at the New Years honours is traditional as the watching the darts, worlds strongest man and die hard at this time of year.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I see Mariano Rajoy is hopeful for a Catalan government that is open to dialogue. He has some brass ones saying that, even considering the separatists actions.
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    British artificial intelligence researcher Demis Hassabis has been recognised on the New Year Honours list. Mr Hassabis is chief executive of DeepMind, which has developed software that can beat human experts at the complex board game Go.

    They give these gongs out to any old idiot these days ;-)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    A world of free movement would be $78 trillion richer says the Economist, forgetting it would also be crammed into western Europe, North America, Oceania and the Far East

    https://www.economist.com/news/world-if/21724907-yes-it-would-be-disruptive-potential-gains-are-so-vast-objectors-could-be-bribed?fsrc=scn/tw/te/rfd/pe
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    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    On other random news, I see Northern Ireland is being its usual self. Something about the story as reported amuses me, possibly in how after so much time and rounds of talking, they still cannot even get around to discussing the date of more talking without arguing about it.

    A date for a fresh round of political talks to restore power sharing in Northern Ireland will be set in the next few days, a DUP MP has said.

    Gregory Campbell told BBC Radio Foyle he expects the date to be "within the next 10 days".

    But Sinn Féin said: "Another round of talks for talks sake have no political or public credibility."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-42504012
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
    Probably not, but 5 years is a long time, he might not be there, and the situation could get quite a lot worse for them (poor brexit, economic downturn, opposition leader able to rally the corbynistas and without some of corbyn's baggage etc). We shall see.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Charles said:

    Adonis is one of several Metropolitan elite anti Brexit crusaders including Osborne, Clegg, Umunna, Blair, Mandelson etc and their views are at the opposite extreme of Farage.

    To accuse TM of being a Ukipper is just hysterical and as far as I am concerned a plague on all of them

    I nearly made the point in this article that the Conservatives are currently implementing UKIP's 2015 manifesto piecemeal. Lord Adonis is correct in substance.

    I find it very difficult to believe he has only just found this out. Given that, I am struggling with the idea he has genuinely quit over Brexit.

    Oh I'm sure his flexible opinions have not suddenly found their breaking point. Even a careerist can be right though.

    Looking at his letter it seems clear the real issue is a profound disagreement with Chris Grayling. There seem to be a number of very worrying aspects to the bail-out decision the minister took and these deserve serious scrutiny. In leading on Brexit, though, Adonis has made a serious mistake and given the government all the material it needs to portray him as nothing more than a malcontent. He has made a fool of himself and ensured that Grayling will probably ride out what could have been a very difficult period - and that the taxpayer will end up heavily subsidising private companies who have proved themselves incapable of running efficient businesses.
    Yes - that had passed me by before - but as you observe as its buried in a scream of consciousness rant about Brexit (and whatever May's faults to describe her as UKIP is hysterically over the top) - it will get lost as the ripples close over his head for the final time....
    Although his main complaint seems to be "Chris Grayling didn't use my blueprint which would have allowed me to seem more important than I really am"
    The Virgin east coast bailout is absolutely shocking.
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    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, any really shocking honours for people to get worked up angry about/righteously defend?

    Mrs May trying to buy off the 1922 is the only contentious thing at the moment.
    They'd care more about being called sir than Brexit? There's a word for that.
    Even The Sun are joining in the pile on.

    CRONIES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE

    Theresa May sparks fresh cronyism row as one in five knighthoods are handed to MPs – including Tory kingmaker

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5233491/theresa-may-honours-cronies-row-new-year-2017/
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
    Probably not, but 5 years is a long time, he might not be there, and the situation could get quite a lot worse for them (poor brexit, economic downturn, opposition leader able to rally the corbynistas and without some of corbyn's baggage etc). We shall see.
    Corbyn will be there, he and McDonnell have an iron grip on Labour now until the next general election and no matter how bad the economy gets or how bad Brexit gets close to 40% of the electorate will vote Tory to keep out Corbynism
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Ah, that's why they are still at 40% in the polls.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    I see Mariano Rajoy is hopeful for a Catalan government that is open to dialogue. He has some brass ones saying that, even considering the separatists actions.

    He wants to talk to Citizens, the largest party in Catalonia but not the separatist majority.

    A new national Spanish poll after the Catalonia election had Rajoy's PP narrowly ahead still on 25.8% with the Socialists in second on 23% just ahead of Citizens on 22.4%

    http://m.publico.es/politica/2026193/cs-devora-al-pp-y-se-pondria-casi-a-la-par-con-el-psoe-en-unas-elecciones-generales-en-2018
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AndyJS said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    stevef said:

    Read some of the comments on here with its "one more heave" mentality. Look at some of the videos on Youtube of the hubristic Labour conference. Listen to the songs to Corbyn.

    Your last sentence bears me out. 2017 saw Labour lose its third successive general election defeat with a tally of seats little higher than when it lost power under Gordon Brown in 2010. It saw the Tory vote rise to Margaret Thatcher levels in 1987. The voters did that.

    That is not true of England though where Labour did a lot better than in 2010. Labour appears well placed to end up with in excess of 300 seats next time - 20 gains from the SNP plus 20 - 25 from the Tories.
    It's net gains from the Conservatives that matter, and for that, they need to close them down on vote share. So far there's little sign of that. It is easily possible that Labour could go backwards overall in England next time given what they have to defend and where, although if they pick up seats in Scotland that may hide it.

    Remember, while Labour are moving forwards in England the Conservatives are not moving backwards significantly at the moment - they are just one seat down on 2010, following shifts in voting patterns that have allowed them to pick up seats in the north and West Country to compensate for losses in the South-east. Corbyn needs to reach out to his northern voters and to middle-class voters in the Midlands and so far there's little sign he can do that either.
    It is possible that Labour could go backwards in England next time but at the moment it does not look particularly likely.After 12 years of Tory -led Government , it is quite probable that Labour will recoup some of its working class losses and win back seats such as Walsall North, Copeland and Morley & Outwood. In Wales, Labour looks very well placed to gain Preseli Pembrokeshire and Aberconway - and has a fair chance in Vale of Glamorgan. I am not going to list all the possibilities, but there are a lot of them - including both seats in Milton Keynes as examples.Watford too could easily fall next time.
    I can see Labour doing extremely well next time and getting around 40% once again, but it's difficult to envisage them getting more than about 280 to 290 seats. They might just be able to scrape into government with the help of the SNP, Plaid, Greens, etc.
    I could see Labour polling circa 42% next time and wining circa 310 seats.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Mariano Rajoy is hopeful for a Catalan government that is open to dialogue. He has some brass ones saying that, even considering the separatists actions.

    He wants to talk to Citizens, the largest party in Catalonia but not the separatist majority
    Yeah, I got that - perhaps I should have put 'open to dialogue' in inverted commas to be clear.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Disgracefully still no Knighthood for Boycott.

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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,970
    edited December 2017
    Landslided. Even allowing for the lateness of the hour at the Festive season is worse than pineapple on pizza and Radiohead.
    You should be thoroughly ashamed. :)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    stevef said:

    Read some of the comments on here with its "one more heave" mentality. Look at some of the videos on Youtube of the hubristic Labour conference. Listen to the songs to Corbyn.

    Your last sentence bears me out. 2017 saw Labour lose its third successive general election defeat with a tally of seats little higher than when it lost power under Gordon Brown in 2010. It saw the Tory vote rise to Margaret Thatcher levels in 1987. The voters did that.

    That is not true of England though where Labour did a lot better than in 2010. Labour appears well placed to end up with in excess of 300 seats next time - 20 gains from the SNP plus 20 - 25 from the Tories.
    It's net gains from the Conservatives that matter, and for that, they need to close them down on vote share. So far there's little sign of that. It is easily possible that Labour could go backwards overall in England next time given what they have to defend and where, although if they pick up seats in Scotland that may hide it.

    Remember, while Labour are moving forwards in England the Conservatives are not moving backwards significantly at the moment - they are just one seat down on 2010, following shifts in voting patterns that have allowed them to pick up seats in the north and West Country to compensate for losses in the South-east. Corbyn needs to reach out to his northern voters and to middle-class voters in the Midlands and so far there's little sign he can do that either.
    It is possible that Labour could go backwards in England next time but at the moment it does not look particularly likely.After 12 years of Tory -led Government , it is quite probable that Labour will recoup some of its working class losses and win back seats such as Walsall North, Copeland and Morley & Outwood. In Wales, Labour looks very well placed to gain Preseli Pembrokeshire and Aberconway - and has a fair chance in Vale of Glamorgan. I am not going to list all the possibilities, but there are a lot of them - including both seats in Milton Keynes as examples.Watford too could easily fall next time.
    I can see Labour doing extremely well next time and getting around 40% once again, but it's difficult to envisage them getting more than about 280 to 290 seats. They might just be able to scrape into government with the help of the SNP, Plaid, Greens, etc.
    I could see Labour polling circa 42% next time and wining circa 310 seats.
    Which would be worse than Cameron got in 2015 and May got in 2017 and with no formal coalition likely with either the LDs or SNP would be a very weak government
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited December 2017

    Well done prof curtice..... the truth is...

    The boy done good.

    But why did he get it when Bob Mackenzie did not? David Butler only received it in very recent years.
    Personally I view honours as a load of tosh and refuse to take notice of them. If Mrs Windsor wishes to call someone 'Sir' or 'Dame' that is a matter for her - I don't feel obliged to do likewise.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
    Probably not, but 5 years is a long time, he might not be there, and the situation could get quite a lot worse for them (poor brexit, economic downturn, opposition leader able to rally the corbynistas and without some of corbyn's baggage etc). We shall see.
    Corbyn will be there, he and McDonnell have an iron grip on Labour now until the next general election and no matter how bad the economy gets or how bad Brexit gets close to 40% of the electorate will vote Tory to keep out Corbynism
    I don't think that is the case 'no matter how bad' things get, there has to be a point where some will dislike what is there enough to not try to prevent what looks like a very bad alternative. Besides, which, it need not be a massive movement - switch the percentages around, and suddenly Labour start getting numbers enough to think about coalitions and the like.
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    TGOHF said:

    Disgracefully still no Knighthood for Boycott.

    He’s never getting one.

    That conviction will always be a bar.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,615
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    Boycott is definitely not a fan.
    'No zip... no revolutions..."
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    dixiedean said:

    Landslided. Even allowing for the lateness of the hour at the Festive season is worse than pineapple on pizza and Radiohead.
    You should be thoroughly ashamed. :)

    We should always try to create silly new words, or just mess around with the language construction, you never know which ones might catch on!

    And few things are as bad as pineapple on pizza.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2017
    Nigelb said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    Boycott is definitely not a fan.
    'No zip... no revolutions..."
    TO be fair, boycott has long pointed out that Ali is not a world class frontline spinner. He likes him as a secondary option / batsman, but this series his batting has been shit.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
    Probably not, but 5 years is a long time, he might not be there, and the situation could get quite a lot worse for them (poor brexit, economic downturn, opposition leader able to rally the corbynistas and without some of corbyn's baggage etc). We shall see.
    Corbyn will be there, he and McDonnell have an iron grip on Labour now until the next general election and no matter how bad the economy gets or how bad Brexit gets close to 40% of the electorate will vote Tory to keep out Corbynism
    I don't think that is the case 'no matter how bad' things get, there has to be a point where some will dislike what is there enough to not try to prevent what looks like a very bad alternative. Besides, which, it need not be a massive movement - switch the percentages around, and suddenly Labour start getting numbers enough to think about coalitions and the like.
    Coalition is still not a landslide, there are a number of current Tory voters who voted for Blair but would never consider voting for Corbyn under any circumstance
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Disgracefully still no Knighthood for Boycott.

    He’s never getting one.

    That conviction will always be a bar.
    Dreadful stitch up from a Frog court -shouldn’t be an issue.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
    Probably not, but 5 years is a long time, he might not be there, and the situation could get quite a lot worse for them (poor brexit, economic downturn, opposition leader able to rally the corbynistas and without some of corbyn's baggage etc). We shall see.
    Corbyn will be there, he and McDonnell have an iron grip on Labour now until the next general election and no matter how bad the economy gets or how bad Brexit gets close to 40% of the electorate will vote Tory to keep out Corbynism
    I don't think that is the case 'no matter how bad' things get, there has to be a point where some will dislike what is there enough to not try to prevent what looks like a very bad alternative. Besides, which, it need not be a massive movement - switch the percentages around, and suddenly Labour start getting numbers enough to think about coalitions and the like.
    Coalitions is still not a landslide, there are a number of current Tory voters who voted for Blair but would never consider voting for Corbyn under any circumstance
    I was responding to your point about how no matter what they would be enough votes to keep out Corbynism, by demonstrating that it will not take much of a movement against the Tories and toward Labour to see Corbynism win. I personally think that scenario more likely than a landslide (that was in response to Chris A hoping the Tories will be destroyed, as I was pointing out even if they are landslided that is not destroyed, not that I think they will be landslided - it is a possibility, and more likely than the Tories thumping labour, but a narrower result seems a reasonable guess)*

    *Yes, I am going to keep using it.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited December 2017
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
    He's had multiple match winning performances, his batting average is decent and as a part time bowler would be very useful. His number of centuries already show that if he can get his batting average up a little more, he would be worth his place even with a bowling average that is not enough, on its own, to justify a place.

    Being dropped for the last test might do him the world of good, longer term, to get him to really knuckle down on what he can do best. Not saying he will be the next Steven Smith, brought in as a bowler, not good enough, come back as the best batsman in the world, but as a very good lower order batsmen and useful bowler? Sure.
  • Options
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Disgracefully still no Knighthood for Boycott.

    He’s never getting one.

    That conviction will always be a bar.
    Dreadful stitch up from a Frog court -shouldn’t be an issue.
    Plus going on a rebel tour to Apartheid South Africa is another bar.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Have any England cricketers received honours despite going on a rebel SA tour?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Disgracefully still no Knighthood for Boycott.

    He’s never getting one.

    That conviction will always be a bar.
    Dreadful stitch up from a Frog court -shouldn’t be an issue.
    Plus going on a rebel tour to Apartheid South Africa is another bar.
    Maybe they just don't like that a lot of people call his Sir Geoffrey as a nickname already.

    Night all.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,615
    edited December 2017
    AndyJS said:

    Have any England cricketers received honours despite going on a rebel SA tour?

    Graham Gooch, OBE....

    ditto fatty Gatting.

    (And of course Boycott has one too.)
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
    He's had multiple match winning performances, his batting average is decent and as a part time bowler would be very useful. His number of centuries already show that if he can get his batting average up a little more, he would be worth his place even with a bowling average that is not enough, on its own, to justify a place.

    Being dropped for the last test might do him the world of good, longer term, to get him to really knuckle down on what he can do best. Not saying he will be the next Steven Smith, brought in as a bowler, not good enough, come back as the best batsman in the world, but as a very good lower order batsmen and useful bowler? Sure.
    He’s had just 4 5 fers in nearly 50 tests - Panesar had 12 by that time.

  • Options
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
    He's had multiple match winning performances, his batting average is decent and as a part time bowler would be very useful. His number of centuries already show that if he can get his batting average up a little more, he would be worth his place even with a bowling average that is not enough, on its own, to justify a place.

    Being dropped for the last test might do him the world of good, longer term, to get him to really knuckle down on what he can do best. Not saying he will be the next Steven Smith, brought in as a bowler, not good enough, come back as the best batsman in the world, but as a very good lower order batsmen and useful bowler? Sure.
    He’s had just 4 5 fers in nearly 50 tests - Panesar had 12 by that time.

    Panesar was a specialist spinner. Ali’s a batter who can bowl a bit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Assuming self preservation remains active they will be in power until 2022, and 12 years is not a bad run in office, even if it will have been a rockier ride than they would have liked. They might well find themselves landslided, but that is not destruction.
    As long as Corbyn leads Labour the Tories will not be landslided, don't forget Blair had a 13% lead in 1997
    Probably not, but 5 years is a long time, he might not be there, and the situation could get quite a lot worse for them (poor brexit, economic downturn, opposition leader able to rally the corbynistas and without some of corbyn's baggage etc). We shall see.
    Corbyn will be there, he and McDonnell have an iron grip on Labour now until the next general election and no matter how bad the economy gets or how bad Brexit gets close to 40% of the electorate will vote Tory to keep out Corbynism
    I don't think that is the case 'no matter how bad' things get, there has to be a point where some will dislike what is there enough to not try to prevent what looks like a very bad alternative. Besides, which, it need not be a massive movement - switch the percentages around, and suddenly Labour start getting numbers enough to think about coalitions and the like.
    Coalitions is still not a landslide, there are a number of current Tory voters who voted for Blair but would never consider voting for Corbyn under any circumstance
    I was responding to your point about how no matter what they would be enough votes to keep out Corbynism, by demonstrating that it will not take much of a movement against the Tories and toward Labour to see Corbynism win. I personally think that scenario more likely than a landslide (that was in response to Chris A hoping the Tories will be destroyed, as I was pointing out even if they are landslided that is not destroyed, not that I think they will be landslided - it is a possibility, and more likely than the Tories thumping labour, but a narrower result seems a reasonable guess)*

    *Yes, I am going to keep using it.
    I said close to 40% would vote Tory regardless to keep out Corbynism, that would not stop a Corbyn minority government necessarily but it would stop a Corbyn landslide
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,970
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Landslided. Even allowing for the lateness of the hour at the Festive season is worse than pineapple on pizza and Radiohead.
    You should be thoroughly ashamed. :)

    We should always try to create silly new words, or just mess around with the language construction, you never know which ones might catch on!

    And few things are as bad as pineapple on pizza.
    Couldn't agree more! After all, all neologisms begin somewhere. Or else they wouldn't be neologisms QED.
    Just teasing.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
    He's had multiple match winning performances, his batting average is decent and as a part time bowler would be very useful. His number of centuries already show that if he can get his batting average up a little more, he would be worth his place even with a bowling average that is not enough, on its own, to justify a place.

    Being dropped for the last test might do him the world of good, longer term, to get him to really knuckle down on what he can do best. Not saying he will be the next Steven Smith, brought in as a bowler, not good enough, come back as the best batsman in the world, but as a very good lower order batsmen and useful bowler? Sure.
    He’s had just 4 5 fers in nearly 50 tests - Panesar had 12 by that time.

    That's why I keep emphasizing he needs to improve his batting - I think he could be good enough to justify a place on that plus a bit of bowling, rather than trying to be a complete allrounder, equally good in both, and having the pressure of being the frontline spinner, which I don't think he has the quality for.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Have any England cricketers received honours despite going on a rebel SA tour?

    Graham Gooch, OBE....

    ditto fatty Gatting.

    (And of course Boycott has one too.)
    Only Gooch got his honour after going on a rebel tour.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,615
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
    He's had multiple match winning performances, his batting average is decent and as a part time bowler would be very useful. His number of centuries already show that if he can get his batting average up a little more, he would be worth his place even with a bowling average that is not enough, on its own, to justify a place.

    Being dropped for the last test might do him the world of good, longer term, to get him to really knuckle down on what he can do best. Not saying he will be the next Steven Smith, brought in as a bowler, not good enough, come back as the best batsman in the world, but as a very good lower order batsmen and useful bowler? Sure.
    His batting this tour has been feeble - and even facing the depleted Aussie attack in the current test he played like a feckless tailender; and his bowling has been utterly ineffective. Had Stokes - or Rashid - been on the tour, I'm pretty certain he would have been dropped for this test.

    It's hard to say quite what has gone wrong, as he's not as bad as this whatever you think of his status as an all rounder.

    What's eminently clear is that the lack of any attacking spin option will likely cost England the win today.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,615
    edited December 2017

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's not happening so far for England in Melbourne.

    Moeen being found out big time against decent players. He needs dropped.
    He's proven on enough occasions he has plenty of quality, but it is clear he cannot really be the sole or main spinner most of the time. Dropping for the last test to give someone else a chance, and to give him a shot in the arm to sort himself out for another series.
    Sorry he’s had a few good days with the ball on dodgy pitches but his overall stats are very very poor.

    England need to break from mediocrity and try something else -give Crane a dig in the next test. Moeen looks shot mentally too.
    He's had multiple match winning performances, his batting average is decent and as a part time bowler would be very useful. His number of centuries already show that if he can get his batting average up a little more, he would be worth his place even with a bowling average that is not enough, on its own, to justify a place.

    Being dropped for the last test might do him the world of good, longer term, to get him to really knuckle down on what he can do best. Not saying he will be the next Steven Smith, brought in as a bowler, not good enough, come back as the best batsman in the world, but as a very good lower order batsmen and useful bowler? Sure.
    He’s had just 4 5 fers in nearly 50 tests - Panesar had 12 by that time.

    Panesar was a specialist spinner. Ali’s a batter who can bowl a bit.
    On current form his batting is no better than Rashid - who is a specialist spinner who can bat a bit (he's got an excellent eye, a decent selection of shots, and could well improve with proper encouragement).
    Better fielder, though.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,615
    Just as I'd written it off, Root takes a wicket... or rather was gifted one.

    Unless Australia panic, it should still be a draw though.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2017
    Marsh goes, caught behind.

    I wonder if anyone's got a bet on Australia winning in Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth, and England in Melbourne and Sydney.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    A world of free movement would be $78 trillion richer says the Economist, forgetting it would also be crammed into western Europe, North America, Oceania and the Far East

    https://www.economist.com/news/world-if/21724907-yes-it-would-be-disruptive-potential-gains-are-so-vast-objectors-could-be-bribed?fsrc=scn/tw/te/rfd/pe

    Shows the totally different planet such people live on.
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    Chris_A said:

    The Tories are obsessed on Brexit and it will, thank God, destroy them in the end.

    Be careful what you wish for.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    stevef said:

    Read some of the comments on here with its "one more heave" mentality. Look at some of the videos on Youtube of the hubristic Labour conference. Listen to the songs to Corbyn.

    Your last sentence bears me out. 2017 saw Labour lose its third successive general election defeat with a tally of seats little higher than when it lost power under Gordon Brown in 2010. It saw the Tory vote rise to Margaret Thatcher levels in 1987. The voters did that.

    That is not true of England though where Labour did a lot better than in 2010. Labour appears well placed to end up with in excess of 300 seats next time - 20 gains from the SNP plus 20 - 25 from the Tories.
    It's net gains from the Conservatives that matter, and for that, they need to close them down on vote share. So far there's little sign of that. It is easily possible that Labour could go backwards overall in England next time given what they have to defend and where, although if they pick up seats in Scotland that may hide it.

    Remember, while Labour are moving forwards in England the Conservatives are not moving backwards significantly at the moment - they are just one seat down on 2010, following shifts in voting patterns that have allowed them to pick up seats in the north and West Country to compensate for losses in the South-east. Corbyn needs to reach out to his northern voters and to middle-class voters in the Midlands and so far there's little sign he can do that either.
    It is possible that Labour could go backwards in England next time but at the moment it does not look particularly likely.After 12 years of Tory -led Government , it is quite probable that Labour will recoup some of its working class losses and win back seats such as Walsall North, Copeland and Morley & Outwood. In Wales, Labour looks very well placed to gain Preseli Pembrokeshire and Aberconway - and has a fair chance in Vale of Glamorgan. I am not going to list all the possibilities, but there are a lot of them - including both seats in Milton Keynes as examples.Watford too could easily fall next time.
    I can see Labour doing extremely well next time and getting around 40% once again, but it's difficult to envisage them getting more than about 280 to 290 seats. They might just be able to scrape into government with the help of the SNP, Plaid, Greens, etc.
    They need to directly attract Tory voters in middle England marginals to win. I still struggle to see how Corbyn is going to do that.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited December 2017
    I think a lot of people are using their opinion of Corbyn rather than thinking of the opinions of current and potential Labour voters.

    A more centrist Labour candidate would bring in more Tory votes and a Tory Labour switcher is worth 2 new Labour votes that didn't switch from voting Tory. However Corbyn and the manifesto drew in millions of extra votes, voters that voted for Labour because of the change in Labour, voters that were inspired by Labour ditching the Blairite era.

    The enthusiasm online and its translation into increased ground activity and the massive increase in membership did not come about because what the people really really want is to go back to a centrist candidate.

    It is amusing to think it, but the reason Labour can't shift right, to any significant degree, is for electoral reasons, it wasn't working previously and Brexit, which like it or not more people supported than opposed would not have turned that around. The reason Labour have start making ground is because of the move to Corbyn not in spite of it.

    Look at what happened to Labour in Scotland prior to Corbyn, I don't doubt that would have slowly started to happen elsewhere, Labour were starting to get into trouble electorally, I think it might have been an MP who mentioned that people had been voting Labour (those New Labour hadn't yet drove away) without any enthusiasm for many years.

    Much the same I imagine as many voted Conservative this time just as an anti Labour vote many of these voters didn't have much more enthusiasm about their own Labour vote.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    AndyJS said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    stevef said:

    Read some of the comments on here with its "one more heave" mentality. Look at some of the videos on Youtube of the hubristic Labour conference. Listen to the songs to Corbyn.

    Your last sentence bears me out.

    That is not true of England though where Labour did a lot better than in 2010. Labour appears well placed to end up with in excess of 300 seats next time - 20 gains from the SNP plus 20 - 25 from the Tories.
    It's net gains from the Conservatives that matter, and for that, they need to close them down on vote share. So far there's little sign of that. It is easily possible that Labour could go backwards overall in England next time given what they have to defend and where, although if they pick up seats in Scotland that may hide it.

    Remember, while Labour are moving forwards in England the Conservatives are not moving backwards significantly at the moment - they are just one seat down on 2010, following shifts in voting patterns that have allowed them to pick up seats in the north and West Country to compensate for losses in the South-east. Corbyn needs to reach out to his northern voters and to middle-class voters in the Midlands and so far there's little sign he can do that either.
    It is possible that Labour could go backwards in England next time but at the moment it does not look particularly likely.After 12 years of Tory -led Government , it is quite probable that Labour will recoup some of its working class losses and win back seats such as Walsall North, Copeland and Morley & Outwood. In Wales, Labour looks very well placed to gain Preseli Pembrokeshire and Aberconway - and has a fair chance in Vale of Glamorgan. I am not going to list all the possibilities, but there are a lot of them - including both seats in Milton Keynes as examples.Watford too could easily fall next time.
    I can see Labour doing extremely well next time and getting around 40% once again, but it's difficult to envisage them getting more than about 280 to 290 seats. They might just be able to scrape into government with the help of the SNP, Plaid, Greens, etc.
    They need to directly attract Tory voters in middle England marginals to win. I still struggle to see how Corbyn is going to do that.
    There are several other routes to a majority.

    1) they can squeeze third partties more, particularly in marginals

    2) Increase the turnout further amongst previous nonvoters.

    3) Tory voters turnout may drop.

    4) Better tactical voting and tacit electoral alliances.

    5) All of the above combined.

    A majority Labour government is not impossible.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited December 2017

    <

    There are several other routes to a majority.

    1) they can squeeze third partties more, particularly in marginals

    2) Increase the turnout further amongst previous nonvoters.

    3) Tory voters turnout may drop.

    4) Better tactical voting and tacit electoral alliances.

    5) All of the above combined.

    A majority Labour government is not impossible.

    It's very difficult to see how they can manage more of 1-3 than they managed in 2017. Furthermore the brutality of the squeeze on third parties left little room for tactical alliances. Moreover as there was a comparatively high abstention rate among Tory leaning groups Labour run the real risk of finding non-voters break for their opponents.

    They need, however much they dislike hearing this, to attract direct switchers from the Tories. That's the only realistic route to majority power. It is also a route they have effectively ruled out entirely by both their policies and their vicious campaigning methods.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    TGOHF said:

    Disgracefully still no Knighthood for Boycott.

    He’s never getting one.

    That conviction will always be a bar.
    Does not seem to be a bar if you are a politician
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    edited December 2017
    ydoethur said:

    <

    There are several other routes to a majority.

    1) they can squeeze third partties more, particularly in marginals

    2) Increase the turnout further amongst previous nonvoters.

    3) Tory voters turnout may drop.

    4) Better tactical voting and tacit electoral alliances.

    5) All of the above combined.

    A majority Labour government is not impossible.

    It's very difficult to see how they can manage more of 1-3 than they managed in 2017. Furthermore the brutality of the squeeze on third parties left little room for tactical alliances. Moreover as there was a comparatively high abstention rate among Tory leaning groups Labour run the real risk of finding non-voters break for their opponents.

    They need, however much they dislike hearing this, to attract direct switchers from the Tories. That's the only realistic route to majority power. It is also a route they have effectively ruled out entirely by both their policies and their vicious campaigning methods.
    What vicious campaigning methods have Labour used?
This discussion has been closed.