Political doom has been upon the UK since it invoked Article 50 and gave away all control.
That loss of control somehow manages to end the rule of the ECJ and renationalise immigration policy.
But your reply is precisely the sort of attention diversion done by Remainers when challenged about their economic predictions going up in smoke.
You don't seem to realise the Government is going to let in hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the country every year whether the UK is in the EU or not. To be honest I would rather have European immigrants to those who come from unstable countries that share little cultural, religious and economic values. The reason the UK is going to let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year is because it helps to grow nominal GDP. This is essential because without Immigration the UK will suffer a similar fate as Japan where the number of working age people has declined relative to those who are supported by the state. So Brexit means less Europeans and possibly more Islamic underpinned Immigration.
The political class who advocated Brexit are well aware of the reason why Immigration will have to continue in order to support those reliant on state support. Indeed Johnson and Davis amongst others called for liberal immigration policy where as the Tory media in order to win the 2016 referendum focused on Farage saying Immigration could be cut. Farage was lying and as with many Brexit supporters employs double standards, it is alright for his wife to be German and live in the UK and his alleged mistress to be French but everybody else is not able to do this. If you say to people particularly pensioners the reason why Immigration has to continue is partly to ensure the purchasing power of their pensions is sustained they simply ignore the point or bury their head in the sand saying they don't agree but like Farage they don't want to live with the fallout of their Brexit supporting ways.
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
We’ve been predicting on here for more than two years now that there will be a split in Labour, and there’s no sign of it so far.
Will the likes of Umunna actually split off or defect to the LDs if whipped to support Brexit in principle, that remains the question.
You don't seem to realise the Government is going to let in hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the country every year whether the UK is in the EU or not. To be honest I would rather have European immigrants to those who come from unstable countries that share little cultural, religious and economic values. The reason the UK is going to let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year is because it helps to grow nominal GDP. This is essential because without Immigration the UK will suffer a similar fate as Japan where the number of working age people has declined relative to those who are supported by the state. So Brexit means less Europeans and possibly more Islamic underpinned Immigration.
The political class who advocated Brexit are well aware of the reason why Immigration will have to continue in order to support those reliant on state support. Indeed Johnson and Davis amongst others called for liberal immigration policy where as the Tory media in order to win the 2016 referendum focused on Farage saying Immigration could be cut. Farage was lying and as with many Brexit supporters employs double standards, it is alright for his wife to be German and live in the UK and his alleged mistress to be French but everybody else is not able to do this. If you say to people particularly pensioners the reason why Immigration has to continue is partly to ensure the purchasing power of their pensions is sustained they simply ignore the point or bury their head in the sand saying they don't agree but like Farage they don't want to live with the fallout of their Brexit supporting ways.
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
We’ve been predicting on here for more than two years now that there will be a split in Labour, and there’s no sign of it so far.
Will the likes of Umunna actually split off or defect to the LDs if whipped to support Brexit in principle, that remains the question.
A big fat No as far as I'm concerned. There were never more than whispers of a split, tribal loyalty even if a party takes a completely detrimental path (as some see it) doesn't seem to phase most politicians, it's about the branding they have committed to, the perceived ideology even if the actual ideology changes markedly. They might get some rebels, but that's no reason to quit, clearly.
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade or so if someone like Umunna has replaced him as leader maybe. At least in relation to the single market and customs union if maybe not the EU itself
I was more just surprised when Dr Palmer suggested that most in Labour don't care much about Brexit (which I can well believe), and in essence were waiting to see how public opinion goes and follow that.
You don't seem to realise the Government is going to le would rather have European immigrants to those who come from unstable countries that share little cultural, religious and economic values. The reason the UK is going to let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year is because it helps to grow nominal GDP. This is essential because without Immigration the UK will suffer a similar fate as Japan where the number of working age people has declined relative to those who are supported by the state. So Brexit means less Europeans and possibly more Islamic underpinned Immigration.
The political class who advocated Brexit are well aware of the reason why Immigration will have to continue in order to support those reliant on state support. Indeed Johnson and Davis amongst others called for liberal immigration policy where as the Tory media in order to win the 2016 referendum focused on Farage saying Immigration could be cut. Farage was lying and as with many Brexit supporters employs double standards, it is alright for his wife to be German and live in the UK and his alleged mistress to be French but everybody else is not able to do this. If you say to people particularly pensioners the reason why Immigration has to continue is partly to ensure the purchasing power of their pensions is sustained they simply ignore the point or bury their head in the sand saying they don't agree but like Farage they don't want to live with the fallout of their Brexit supporting ways.
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
No, but he’s paying very few taxes and claiming lots of benefits, which means taxes on you (but not me, I’m living elsewhere) have to go up to support him and his family, and millions more like him.
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad to better themselves (as I have done) but it’s a shitty system we have when Britain is importing and paying for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes, and your children are paying for it with £50bn a year of borrowed money.
That loss of control somehow manages to end the rule of the ECJ and renationalise immigration policy.
But your reply is precisely the sort of attention diversion done by Remainers when challenged about their economic predictions going up in smoke.
You don't seem to realise the Government is going to let in hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the country every year whether the UK is in the EU or not. To be honest I would rather have European immigrants to those who come from unstable countries that share little cultural, religious and economic values. The reason the UK is going to let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year is because it helps to grow nominal GDP. This is essential because without Immigration the UK will suffer a similar fate as Japan where the number of working age people has declined relative to those who are supported by the state. So Brexit means less Europeans and possibly more Islamic underpinned Immigration.
The political class who advocated Brexit are well aware of the reason why Immigration will have to continue in order to support those reliant on state support. Indeed Johnson and Davis amongst others called for liberal immigration policy where as the Tory media in order to win the 2016 referendum focused on Farage saying Immigration could be cut. Farage was lying and as with many Brexit supporters employs double standards, it is alright for his wife to be German and live in the UK and his alleged mistress to be French but everybody else is not able to do this. If you say to people particularly pensioners the reason why Immigration has to continue is partly to ensure the purchasing power of their pensions is sustained they simply ignore the point or bury their head in the sand saying they don't agree but like Farage they don't want to live with the fallout of their Brexit supporting ways.
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
+1
It's about democratic accountability first and foremost, followed by the ability to choose who we let in rather than have a border that's open to all comers regardless of whether or not they contribute to the economy. For years politicians have said it's out of our control - no more excuses now.
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
No, but he’s paying very few taxes and claiming lots of benefits, which means taxes on you (but not me, I’m living elsewhere) have to go up to support him and his family, and millions more like him.
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad to better themselves (as I have done) but it’s a shitty system we have when Britain is importing and paying for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes.
Seems fine to me. Don't have the inclination to google "number of Big Issue sellers from Romania" right now, but I'm guessing the number is trivial.
But is that what you're so worried about? A few hundred or thousand big issue sellers? As you note, he has moved country to better himself, just like you have. I don't really see the problem; he is only playing by the rules set, again as you note, by a democratically-elected politician. Your solution to get rid of immigration seems slightly to be missing the point. Shouldn't you be voting to change the tax and benefit system?
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
No, but he’s paying very few taxes and claiming lots of benefits, which means taxes on you (but not me, I’m living elsewhere) have to go up to support him and his family, and millions more like him.
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad to better themselves (as I have done) but it’s a shitty system we have when Britain is importing and paying for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes, and your children are paying for it with £50bn a year of borrowed money.
It's worth it for the cheap lattes, or car washes, or something....
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade or so if someone like Umunna has replaced him as leader maybe. At least in relation to the single market and customs union if maybe not the EU itself
HYUFD I do not know why Umunna stood down so fast from his leadership bid in 2015.However whatever the reason it creates doubt that he could stand the pressure of been a leader.Both May and Corbyn have shown they can stand upto hard times from inside and outside their parties .
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade or so if someone like Umunna has replaced him as leader maybe. At least in relation to the single market and customs union if maybe not the EU itself
HYUFD I do not know why Umunna stood down so fast from his leadership bid in 2015.However whatever the reason it creates doubt that he could stand the pressure of been a leader.Both May and Corbyn have shown they can stand upto hard times from inside and outside their parties .
He’s got married since then. Which clearly erases all the skeletons in his closet. Maybe.
Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?
The football forum I go on is currently up to page 1564 on its dedicated Brexit thread.
Yep my footie team has a well used politics forum.
Could have sworn there was a Stalin flag at Anfield once (it was probably just an image in the style of an old Stalin image in fairness. Probably), so as a Liverpool fan I think I would find a politics forum of the club a strange place indeed.
Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?
The football forum I go on is currently up to page 1564 on its dedicated Brexit thread.
Yep my footie team has a well used politics forum.
Could have sworn there was a Stalin flag at Anfield once (it was probably just an image in the style of an old Stalin image), so as a Liverpool fan I think I would find a politics forum of the club a strange place indeed.
My favourite flag at Anfield was the Rafatollah one.
Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.
But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
No, but he’s paying very few taxes and claiming lots of benefits, which means taxes on you (but not me, I’m living elsewhere) have to go up to support him and his family, and millions more like him.
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad to better themselves (as I have done) but it’s a shitty system we have when Britain is importing and paying for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes, and your children are paying for it with £50bn a year of borrowed money.
It's worth it for the cheap lattes, or car washes, or something....
Our no-aircraft carriers are the envy of the plumbing-accountancy world!
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being uppose.
We’ve been predicting on here for more than two years now that there will be a split in question.
A big fat No as far as I'm concerned. There were never more than ly. They might get some rebels, but that's no reason to quit, clearly.
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election alave
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade elf
I was more just surprised when Dr Palmer suggested that most at.
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a ve
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being ose.
I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade or self
HYUFD I do not know why Umunna stood down so fast from his leadership bid in 2015.However whatever the reason it creates doubt that he could stand the pressure of been a leader.Both May and Corbyn have shown they can stand upto hard times from inside and outside their parties .
Who knows but probably he dud not want the intrusion into his private life at the time. However having now placed himself as the de facto leader of the pro single market faction he seems to have moved on and is still very much a contender
HYUFD I do not know why Umunna stood down so fast from his leadership bid in 2015.However whatever the reason it creates doubt that he could stand the pressure of been a leader.Both May and Corbyn have shown they can stand upto hard times from inside and outside their parties .
There were stories that more unfortunate comments from him from his life before politics were going to published.
From 2013
Labour's Chuka Umunna asked how to avoid mixing with 'trash' on elite social network
A senior Labour shadow minister asked how to avoid mixing with "trash" on a social networking site for wealthy people.
Chuka Umunna, tipped as a potential future leader, has admitted his is a member of ASmallWorld, which is known as MySpace for Millionaires".
In public, the MP for Streatham has been keen to stress his humble background growing up in south London.
But in private, Mr Umunna is a member of the exclusive online networking club for the global jet-setting elite.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
No, but he’s paying very few taxes and claiming lots of benefits, which means taxes on you (but not me, I’m living elsewhere) have to go up to support him and his family, and millions more like him.
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad to better themselves (as I have done) but it’s a shitty system we have when Britain is importing and paying for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes.
Seems fine to me. Don't have the inclination to google "number of Big Issue sellers from Romania" right now, but I'm guessing the number is trivial.
But is that what you're so worried about? A few hundred or thousand big issue sellers? As you note, he has moved country to better himself, just like you have. I don't really see the problem; he is only playing by the rules set, again as you note, by a democratically-elected politician. Your solution to get rid of immigration seems slightly to be missing the point. Shouldn't you be voting to change the tax and benefit system?
I don’t want to get rid of immigration, in fact I’d quite like to bring an immigrant with me when I return to the UK.
I bear no malice to the Romanian Big Issue seller himself, he’s just playing the system that’s there, the system that gives his family accommodation in central London that’s unaffordable to anyone who isn’t a banker or a lawyer or on benefits. The idea that we have to treat the poor and unemployed of the EU as if they were British is what causes them problem, hence why we voted to leave. If there was a way of voting to end tax credits and housing benefit I would.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?
Why is Brexit any different?
Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade or so if someone like Umunna has replaced him as leader maybe. At least in relation to the single market and customs union if maybe not the EU itself
HYUFD I do not know why Umunna stood down so fast from his leadership bid in 2015.However whatever the reason it creates doubt that he could stand the pressure of been a leader.Both May and Corbyn have shown they can stand upto hard times from inside and outside their parties .
He’s got married since then. Which clearly erases all the skeletons in his closet. Maybe.
You never erase ,but leaders deal with it .If you can not,do not put yourself forward.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I don't think 10 is too old for a bit of magic and fun.
Some persist in believing in a magical sky fairy even as an adult.
What’s all this “we don’t need...”? You don’t effing well live here. How would you know what “we” need?
Are you arguing that we need more Big Issue seller immigrants dependent on benefits?
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
Why? Is the Big Issue seller keeping you out of a job?
No, but he’s paying very few taxes and claiming lots of benefits, which means taxes on you (but not me, I’m living elsewhere) have to go up to support him and his family, and millions more like him.
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad tog for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes.
Seems fine to me. Don't have the inclination to google "number of Big Issue sellers from Romania" right now, but I'm guessing the number is trivial.
But is that what you're so worried about? A few hundred or thousand big issue sellers? As you note, he has moved country to better himself, just like you have. I don't really see the problem; he is only playing by the rules set, again as you note, by a democratically-elected politician. Your solution to get rid of immigration seems slightly to be missing the point. Shouldn't you be voting to change the tax and benefit system?
I don’t want to get rid of immigration, in fact I’d quite like to bring an immigrant with me when I return to the UK.
I bear no malice to the Romanian Big Issue seller himself, he’s just playing the system that’s there, the system that gives his family accommodation in central London that’s unaffordable to anyone who isn’t a banker or a lawyer or on benefits. The idea that we have to treat the poor and unemployed of the EU as if they were British is what causes them problem, hence why we voted to leave. If there was a way of voting to end tax credits and housing benefit I would.
You are benefitting from one country’s regime concerning expats (Dubai) and railing against another country’s regime concerning expats (the UK).
You need to go and lie down in a dark room for a bit.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I agree and tbh I think it installs a bit more of a balanced less self centred view of the world if kids realised that the presents they get are from their parents and that is the reason why some kids get more or less (or indeed none in some cases) presents than themselves. Not because Santa wants it that way.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I don't think 10 is too old for a bit of magic and fun.
Some persist in believing in a magical sky fairy even as an adult.
Yes, but fortunately people like Richard Dawkins are very rare while many children believe in Father Christmas.
Edit - although I suppose they're quite common in elite circles - Steven Moffat, the late Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris - Richard Carrier (stretching the word 'elite' to snapping point).
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
... At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes.
Seems fine to me. Don't have the inclination to google "number of Big Issue sellers from Romania" right now, but I'm guessing the number is trivial.
But is that what you're so worried about? A few hundred or thousand big issue sellers? As you note, he has moved country to better himself, just like you have. I don't really see the problem; he is only playing by the rules set, again as you note, by a democratically-elected politician. Your solution to get rid of immigration seems slightly to be missing the point. Shouldn't you be voting to change the tax and benefit system?
I don’t want to get rid of immigration, in fact I’d quite like to bring an immigrant with me when I return to the UK.
I bear no malice to the Romanian Big Issue seller himself, he’s just playing the system that’s there, the system that gives his family accommodation in central London that’s unaffordable to anyone who isn’t a banker or a lawyer or on benefits. The idea that we have to treat the poor and unemployed of the EU as if they were British is what causes them problem, hence why we voted to leave. If there was a way of voting to end tax credits and housing benefit I would.
You are benefitting from one country’s regime concerning expats (Dubai) and railing against another country’s regime concerning expats (the UK).
You need to go and lie down in a dark room for a bit.
Nope. I’m saying that each country should be free to set its own immigration policy. As members of the EU, we can’t do that, and several British governments signed away rights in this regard without deferring to the people. Unless you prefer to count the EU as a single country?
FYI if you live in Dubai and are between jobs (sponsored contracts), you need to leave the country every 30 days and return. You’re fined 100dhm a day (£20) if you overstay your visa. One of my friends is a couple of years overstayed and is currently trying to negotiate the financial amount with the relevant department - he won’t be allowed through the airport until it’s settled.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I agree and tbh I think it installs a bit more of a balanced less self centred view of the world if kids realised that the presents they get are from their parents and that is the reason why some kids get more or less (or indeed none in some cases) presents than themselves. Not because Santa wants it that way.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
anyway can you be arrested for being Santaphobic?
I've convinced my eldest (7) that Santa is in fact Spiderman, who he adores, and he knows doesn't exist.
This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.
Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored.
Political doom has been upon the UK since it invoked Article 50 and gave away all control.
That loss of control somehow manages to end the rule of the ECJ and renationalise immigration policy.
But your reply is precisely the sort of attention diversion done by Remainers when challenged about their economic predictions going up in smoke.
.
As someone of Iranian heritage, I'm glad to find out my family and I share little values with Britain. There I was thinking we look at Britain and her liberalism with admiration and want to be a part of it.
Personally, I am comfortable with immigration, but I am a reasonably successful professional. But coming from a northern city, I do see how it disrupts low income neighbourhoods and breaks down the sense of community. I also see how it destroys a centre left voting base and brings in extremism from the left and right.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I agree and tbh I think it installs a bit more of a balanced less self centred view of the world if kids realised that the presents they get are from their parents and that is the reason why some kids get more or less (or indeed none in some cases) presents than themselves. Not because Santa wants it that way.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
anyway can you be arrested for being Santaphobic?
I've convinced my eldest (7) that Santa is in fact Spiderman, who he adores, and knows he doesn't exist.
Venn diagram doesn't work. The job of the Inquisition was to find out if people had been naughty or nice.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
Poor argument. Speed cameras never catch other people, particularly those bastards doing 110 on the M5 past Redditch. They only catch you if you do the same.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
1)Too fast for even the speed cameras to pick up
2)He sees and knows all, so knows how to avoid the cameras
I don’t want to get rid of immigration, in fact I’d quite like to bring an immigrant with me when I return to the UK.
I bear no malice to the Romanian Big Issue seller himself, he’s just playing the system that’s there, the system that gives his family accommodation in central London that’s unaffordable to anyone who isn’t a banker or a lawyer or on benefits. The idea that we have to treat the poor and unemployed of the EU as if they were British is what causes them problem, hence why we voted to leave. If there was a way of voting to end tax credits and housing benefit I would.
You are benefitting from one country’s regime concerning expats (Dubai) and railing against another country’s regime concerning expats (the UK).
You need to go and lie down in a dark room for a bit.
Is Sandpit claiming benefits in Dubai? Tax credits? Was he allowed to waltz through immigration control simply by virtue of his passport, without a job to go to or a place to stay, or was he subjected to stringent immigration requirements, probably including sponsorship by his employer?
If you can't tell the difference between a country choosing to allow a productive worker into their country for a time, and being able to revoke that right if it changes its mind, and a country that's forced to allow *anyone* from 27 other countries regardless of whether the country wants or needs them perhaps it is you who need to lie down in a darkened room.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I agree and tbh I think it installs a bit more of a balanced less self centred view of the world if kids realised that the presents they get are from their parents and that is the reason why some kids get more or less (or indeed none in some cases) presents than themselves. Not because Santa wants it that way.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
anyway can you be arrested for being Santaphobic?
I've convinced my eldest (7) that Santa is in fact Spiderman, who he adores, and knows he doesn't exist.
Venn diagram doesn't work. The job of the Inquisition was to find out if people had been naughty or nice.
My wife has a rule of thumb - If I'm asking you a question I already know the answer.
The Spanish Inquisition was similar. They weren't trying to find out if you were naughty of nice, they often had predetermined that you were.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
You can always identify the smart kids as the ones that claim to believe in Santa for a lot longer than they should. The “stupid but think they’re smart” ones are those who twig very early and then tell everyone.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I agree and tbh I think it installs a bit more of a balanced less self centred view of the world if kids realised that the presents they get are from their parents and that is the reason why some kids get more or less (or indeed none in some cases) presents than themselves. Not because Santa wants it that way.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
anyway can you be arrested for being Santaphobic?
I've convinced my eldest (7) that Santa is in fact Spiderman, who he adores, and knows he doesn't exist.
Venn diagram doesn't work. The job of the Inquisition was to find out if people had been naughty or nice.
That's a rather optimistic view of what their job was, I feel.
Like many of us, their actual job may have differed slightly from the official job description.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
One-horse Xmas Sleigh - he's classified as a bicycle.
I don’t want to get rid of immigration, in fact I’d quite like to bring an immigrant with me when I return to the UK.
I bear no malice to the Romanian Big Issue seller himself, he’s just playing the system that’s there, the system that gives his family accommodation in central London that’s unaffordable to anyone who isn’t a banker or a lawyer or on benefits. The idea that we have to treat the poor and unemployed of the EU as if they were British is what causes them problem, hence why we voted to leave. If there was a way of voting to end tax credits and housing benefit I would.
You are benefitting from one country’s regime concerning expats (Dubai) and railing against another country’s regime concerning expats (the UK).
You need to go and lie down in a dark room for a bit.
Is Sandpit claiming benefits in Dubai? Tax credits? Was he allowed to waltz through immigration control simply by virtue of his passport, without a job to go to or a place to stay, or was he subjected to stringent immigration requirements, probably including sponsorship by his employer?
If you can't tell the difference between a country choosing to allow a productive worker into their country for a time, and being able to revoke that right if it changes its mind, and a country that's forced to allow *anyone* from 27 other countries regardless of whether the country wants or needs them perhaps it is you who need to lie down in a darkened room.
Acually between sponsored jobs at the moment, and needing to do a “visa run” over the weekend. Drive to the Oman border and turn around. Normal for here, every 30 days if not sponsored.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
One-horse Xmas Sleigh - he's classified as a bicycle.
At least one middle aged man leaves off the lycra then!
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
One-horse Xmas Sleigh - he's classified as a bicycle.
At least one middle aged man leaves off the lycra then!
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
One-horse Xmas Sleigh - he's classified as a bicycle.
At least one middle aged man leaves off the lycra then!
Santa has however always loved a stocking.
Who doesn't ? If kids don't get told before they are 11 that leaves only 7 years of stark realism before they have to 'be the best' for the army when they may well find themselves tracking santa on some gizmo that really should be used for better things.
My wife has a rule of thumb - If I'm asking you a question I already know the answer.
The Spanish Inquisition was similar. They weren't trying to find out if you were naughty of nice, they often had predetermined that you were.
They really didn't. While that was (is) the popular image of them, that owes far more to Protestant attacks on them than the reality. Their job was as much to keep people from becoming heretics or turning hem back as rooting them out, although there were brief exceptions to this especially under Torquemada. Although uncritically accepted by a number of scholars (although calling Dawkins a scholar in is field is a bit of a stretch) where it supports their agenda, actual historians tend to be more sceptical.
You might find this article by Professor Thomas Madden of interest:
As an aside, I would add that there is a tendency even beyond this suspension of critical faculties among New Atheist historiography to deliberately falsify historical information in order to cast Christians in a worse light or atheists in a better one. Sometimes this extends to what can only be described as wilful forgery - for example Dawkins claiming Stalin was not an atheist or that if he was, it made no difference to his conduct in office (both of which claims are demonstrably untrue). Richard Carrier is a New Atheist scholar with a doctorate in history, and yet when I have checked any of his references I have always found he has misrepresented them, for example his staggering claim that David Irving is not a Holocaust denier so that he could use some anti-Christian sources Irving had created. Catherine Nixey's book The Darkening Age appears to fit this mould all too well - see this very disturbing review by Tim O'Neill, a distinguished amateur, which suggests the Independent has some way to go to exorcise the ghost of Johann Hari.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition , every kid (naive sorts) expects Santa.
Does anyone really expect God? (maybe at the pearly gates but you don't want HIM busting in on your critical moments in your pre (extra) -marital relationships for instance.
Spiderman is a really lame superhero imo . Both Superman and Batman (I think) fly , Spiderman has to climb
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition , every kid (naive sorts) expects Santa.
Does anyone really expect God? (maybe at the pearly gates but you don't want HIM busting in on your critical moments in your pre (extra) -marital relationships for instance.
Spiderman is a really lame superhero imo . Both Superman and Batman (I think) fly , Spiderman has to climb
Spiderman is the best, he's the Alternative Vote of Superheroes.
My wife has a rule of thumb - If I'm asking you a question I already know the answer.
The Spanish Inquisition was similar. They weren't trying to find out if you were naughty of nice, they often had predetermined that you were.
They really didn't. While that was (is) the popular image of them, that owes far more to Protestant attacks on them than the reality. Their job was as much to keep people from becoming heretics or turning hem back as rooting them out, although there were brief exceptions to this especially under Torquemada. Although uncritically accepted by a number of scholars (although calling Dawkins a scholar in is field is a bit of a stretch) where it supports their agenda, actual historians tend to be more sceptical.
You might find this article by Professor Thomas Madden of interest:
As an aside, I would add that there is a tendency even beyond this suspension of critical faculties among New Atheist historiography to deliberately falsify historical information in order to cast Christians in a worse light or atheists in a better one. Sometimes this extends to what can only be described as wilful forgery - for example Dawkins claiming Stalin was not an atheist or that if he was, it made no difference to his conduct in office (both of which claims are demonstrably untrue). Richard Carrier is a New Atheist scholar with a doctorate in history, and yet when I have checked any of his references I have always found he has misrepresented them, for example his staggering claim that David Irving is not a Holocaust denier so that he could use some anti-Christian sources Irving had created. Catherine Nixey's book The Darkening Age appears to fit this mould all too well - see this very disturbing review by Tim O'Neill, a distinguished amateur, which suggests the Independent has some way to go to exorcise the ghost of Johann Hari.
Their (Spanish Inquisition) popular perception in the UK owes more to Monty Python than anything else.
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
Foreign licence plate, innit
Wow, I had to read that twice. For a moment I imagined that you might be suggesting that Santa isn't an Englishman. They once said that about God too you know!
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
Any evidence you may have for the non-existence of Santa won't be so hot scientifically. The tricky thing with Santa is that he's a bit slippery - must be all the ice on the beard. It's pretty tricky to narrow down any actual testable things. No great Arks that carried animals in pairs that are wrecked on high peaks for example. I think we can say as a fact that the chimney thing is false, but otherwise it's hard to find anything that you'd use to test against. Perhaps that no-one in the world says 'Ho-Ho-Ho'?
How about - If Santa is that fast why does no effing speed camera pick him up?
Foreign licence plate, innit
Wow, I had to read that twice. For a moment I imagined that you might be suggesting that Santa isn't an Englishman. They once said that about God too you know!
For he might have been a Proosian? A French, or Turk or Roosian? Or perhaps Ey-talian? But, in spite of all temptations, To belong to other nations He remains, he remains an Englishman!
I cannot say it on facebook so I am gonna say it on here - why do parents insist on persisting with Santa Claus rubbish when their kid is nearly reaching secondary school age? FGS! I told my kid at the age of 6 he didn't exist and she was really grateful to have this bit of knowledge that none of her friends did not. RANT over
I honestly have no recollection of when, if ever, I believed in Santa Claus, or when the family stopped making a deal of it at least, so not sure of the 'proper' time for it. Not long after primary school starts, I should think, other than as general frivolity rather than pretending it is real?
I agree and tbh I think it installs a bit more of a balanced less self centred view of the world if kids realised that the presents they get are from their parents and that is the reason why some kids get more or less (or indeed none in some cases) presents than themselves. Not because Santa wants it that way.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
anyway can you be arrested for being Santaphobic?
I've convinced my eldest (7) that Santa is in fact Spiderman, who he adores, and he knows doesn't exist.
Kinda sort of makes sense - but how do you actually know God doesn't wear a red suit ? After all, it seems good enough for Lewis Hamilton....
Previous Comment: "This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.
Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored."
The "doom mongering" as you call it is supported by hundreds of years of statistical records that if you erect trade barriers it will cause trade to fall and hence economic output will rise less quickly. This is precisely what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore why if tariff barriers and customs control are so unimportant has for most of the post war period there been a policy of reducing these barriers to trade which has augmented economic growth and produced the most interdependent global economy and widespread prosperity of people in history?
Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.
The UK economy boomed from 1931-39.
Please explain why it is a good thing for us to run a huge trade deficit with the EU.
Comments
Will the likes of Umunna actually split off or defect to the LDs if whipped to support Brexit in principle, that remains the question.
All I’d like is to be able to move back to the U.K. with my wife, that really shouldn’t be too much to ask of the country of my birth and more than a decade’s worth of being a contributor.
https://www.twitter.com/FOXNashville/status/946069219703181312
Outside of the EU, no country on Earth gives benefits to immigrants without requiring years of contributions first. Fair play to all those who move abroad to better themselves (as I have done) but it’s a shitty system we have when Britain is importing and paying for Europe’s unemployed and unemployable.
At the root of it all is Gordon Brown’s tax credits policy, perhaps the single most pernicious government policy of my lifetime. You’re paying for that with your taxes, and your children are paying for it with £50bn a year of borrowed money.
It's about democratic accountability first and foremost, followed by the ability to choose who we let in rather than have a border that's open to all comers regardless of whether or not they contribute to the economy. For years politicians have said it's out of our control - no more excuses now.
But is that what you're so worried about? A few hundred or thousand big issue sellers? As you note, he has moved country to better himself, just like you have. I don't really see the problem; he is only playing by the rules set, again as you note, by a democratically-elected politician. Your solution to get rid of immigration seems slightly to be missing the point. Shouldn't you be voting to change the tax and benefit system?
From 2013
Labour's Chuka Umunna asked how to avoid mixing with 'trash' on elite social network
A senior Labour shadow minister asked how to avoid mixing with "trash" on a social networking site for wealthy people.
Chuka Umunna, tipped as a potential future leader, has admitted his is a member of ASmallWorld, which is known as MySpace for Millionaires".
In public, the MP for Streatham has been keen to stress his humble background growing up in south London.
But in private, Mr Umunna is a member of the exclusive online networking club for the global jet-setting elite.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/9973249/Labours-Chuka-Umunna-asked-how-to-avoid-mixing-with-trash-on-elite-social-network.html
Honestly there's nothing worse than when the middle class pretend to be working class and sneer at the working class and call busses 'peasant wagons'
I bear no malice to the Romanian Big Issue seller himself, he’s just playing the system that’s there, the system that gives his family accommodation in central London that’s unaffordable to anyone who isn’t a banker or a lawyer or on benefits. The idea that we have to treat the poor and unemployed of the EU as if they were British is what causes them problem, hence why we voted to leave. If there was a way of voting to end tax credits and housing benefit I would.
Some persist in believing in a magical sky fairy even as an adult.
If he actually cared about his student girlfriend going on busses he’d get her a car and driver.
You need to go and lie down in a dark room for a bit.
That furore over the magical story of pretending the space station flight on Christmas Eve was Santa and his Sleigh was daft bascially because kids should have been more in awe of the actual space station and the effort ,intellect and pure human soul that went into it than thinking it was Santa.
anyway can you be arrested for being Santaphobic?
She prefers the busses as she gets to see her mates on them and gossip on said peasant wagon bus.
Edit - although I suppose they're quite common in elite circles - Steven Moffat, the late Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris - Richard Carrier (stretching the word 'elite' to snapping point).
As members of the EU, we can’t do that, and several British governments signed away rights in this regard without deferring to the people.
Unless you prefer to count the EU as a single country?
FYI if you live in Dubai and are between jobs (sponsored contracts), you need to leave the country every 30 days and return. You’re fined 100dhm a day (£20) if you overstay your visa. One of my friends is a couple of years overstayed and is currently trying to negotiate the financial amount with the relevant department - he won’t be allowed through the airport until it’s settled.
Personally, I am comfortable with immigration, but I am a reasonably successful professional. But coming from a northern city, I do see how it disrupts low income neighbourhoods and breaks down the sense of community. I also see how it destroys a centre left voting base and brings in extremism from the left and right.
2)He sees and knows all, so knows how to avoid the cameras
3)Camouflage technology
Simples.
If you can't tell the difference between a country choosing to allow a productive worker into their country for a time, and being able to revoke that right if it changes its mind, and a country that's forced to allow *anyone* from 27 other countries regardless of whether the country wants or needs them perhaps it is you who need to lie down in a darkened room.
The Spanish Inquisition was similar. They weren't trying to find out if you were naughty of nice, they often had predetermined that you were.
https://www.noradsanta.org
Like many of us, their actual job may have differed slightly from the official job description.
Acually between sponsored jobs at the moment, and needing to do a “visa run” over the weekend. Drive to the Oman border and turn around. Normal for here, every 30 days if not sponsored.
You might find this article by Professor Thomas Madden of interest:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-truth-about-the-spanish-inquisition
As an aside, I would add that there is a tendency even beyond this suspension of critical faculties among New Atheist historiography to deliberately falsify historical information in order to cast Christians in a worse light or atheists in a better one. Sometimes this extends to what can only be described as wilful forgery - for example Dawkins claiming Stalin was not an atheist or that if he was, it made no difference to his conduct in office (both of which claims are demonstrably untrue). Richard Carrier is a New Atheist scholar with a doctorate in history, and yet when I have checked any of his references I have always found he has misrepresented them, for example his staggering claim that David Irving is not a Holocaust denier so that he could use some anti-Christian sources Irving had created. Catherine Nixey's book The Darkening Age appears to fit this mould all too well - see this very disturbing review by Tim O'Neill, a distinguished amateur, which suggests the Independent has some way to go to exorcise the ghost of Johann Hari.
Santa
Spider Man
God
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition , every kid (naive sorts) expects Santa.
Does anyone really expect God? (maybe at the pearly gates but you don't want HIM busting in on your critical moments in your pre (extra) -marital relationships for instance.
Spiderman is a really lame superhero imo . Both Superman and Batman (I think) fly , Spiderman has to climb
A French, or Turk or Roosian?
Or perhaps Ey-talian?
But, in spite of all temptations,
To belong to other nations
He remains, he remains an Englishman!
After all, it seems good enough for Lewis Hamilton....
NEW THREAD
Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.
The UK economy boomed from 1931-39.
Please explain why it is a good thing for us to run a huge trade deficit with the EU.