You could argue the methods here aren’t as bad than the methods that saw the expenses saga.
Sitting on the evidence for a decade before striking when Grern was weaken. Not a good fact pattern for public interest defence
I’m not defending the police.
I’m just pointing out the reality.
Iason?
Unusual.
He resigned specifically because he lied about being notified that the porn was found, and that he was not aware that it had been found. His solicitor was notified twice that it had been found at the time.
My post last nite was very brief. I referred to Green as a liar. That was all. Didn't elaborate at all. You said he wasn't. Now you are fictionalising my account.
Why?
because i misremembered your post - conflating you with the guardian.
At the time I thought he had omitted the fact he had been told - hadn't appreciated he'd specifically denied it
You seem weirdly fixated on something completely unimportant, but if it really matters to you I'm sorry.
Shit, Charles, I don't want an apolgy, ffs. If we can't have a knockabout without the need for somebody to apologise it's a sad state of affairs. This is not a Parliamentary Committee you know!
For what (little) it's worth I generally enjoy reading your posts and was surprised at your quick defence of what I thought was an untenable position. Maybe it was too quick. He plainly lied and whilst it might be noble to defend your mates, your cred goes if you do it against all the evidence.
I should say he's no loss and should be dropped without remorse. I expect he will be, and in the end he will matter little. Longer term, what's going on with the Plod is more important. They may not have lied, but you and I sure as hell didn't ought to be terrifically comfortable with what they did do.
This case has striking similarities to the Stephen Byers affair. A lie, not particularly important but quite deliberate, told in relation to an essentially minor matter. Theresa May's handling of the matter compares very favourably with Tony Blair's. She has taken a difficult but correct decision. Once a minister's reputation for integrity has been compromised, whatever the surrounding circumstances, there must be consequences. Her government will benefit from her decision.
Yes, I think this is the correct interpretation of these events.
@Charles (Sorry, Vanilla made nonsense of my attempt to follow on....)
Shit, Charles, I don't want an apolgy, ffs. If we can't have a knockabout without the need for somebody to apologise it's a sad state of affairs. This is not a Parliamentary Committee you know!
For what (little) it's worth I generally enjoy reading your posts and was surprised at your quick defence of what I thought was an untenable position. Maybe it was too quick. He plainly lied and whilst it might be noble to defend your mates, your cred goes if you do it against all the evidence.
I should say he's no loss and should be dropped without remorse. I expect he will be, and in the end he will matter little. Longer term, what's going on with the Plod is more important. They may not have lied, but you and I sure as hell didn't ought to be terrifically comfortable with what they did do.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
A constant drip of stories like those mentioned will eventually have that effect on juries, they’ll certainly be more willing to question whether the accounts of policemen are accurate and believable. Not good for justice when that change happens, of course the majority of coppers are straight and want to see justice served in the correct manner.
The Prime Minister will travel to Warsaw today for an annual summit designed to strengthen the relationship between the UK and Poland as Britain prepares to leave the EU.
The UK-Poland bilateral summit will bring together both Prime Ministers along with a number of senior Cabinet ministers, including the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Defence Secretary, Home Secretary and Business Secretary.
As an integral part of the summit, the Prime Minister is expected to announce a new joint UK-Poland Treaty on Defence and Security Co-operation. The only other European Union country we have such a treaty with is France.
Last weekend, I tipped Green not to be next minister out. Sorry if anyone lost money on this.
In mitigation, if the silly sod had been honest about knowing that there was porn on his computer - however it got there - he'd probably still be in post. But he's not and it's often the cover-up that gets you. That being so, the possibility that Green might have been economical with the truth in his explanations should have been a factor worth taking into account. Was he value at 1/3 knowing then what we did? Hard to say. It's a good rule of thumb that the favourite in this market is usually significantly under-priced (I remember Vince Cable once being 1/7 to be next to go, which would have been a loser), though Green was clearly an exception.
The Prime Minister who assured the nation that there would be no early general election, and then called an early general election, sacks her Deputy PM for lying.
'Oh we make the standards and we make the rules And if you don't abide by them you must be a fool We have the power to control the whole land You never must question our motives or plans'
Last weekend, I tipped Green not to be next minister out. Sorry if anyone lost money on this.
In mitigation, if the silly sod had been honest about knowing that there was porn on his computer - however it got there - he'd probably still be in post. But he's not and it's often the cover-up that gets you. That being so, the possibility that Green might have been economical with the truth in his explanations should have been a factor worth taking into account. Was he value at 1/3 knowing then what we did? Hard to say. It's a good rule of thumb that the favourite in this market is usually significantly under-priced (I remember Vince Cable once being 1/7 to be next to go, which would have been a loser), though Green was clearly an exception.
I thought it was a good tip and 1/3 was too short on the basis of the information we possessed at the time. No one can always be right.
This case has striking similarities to the Stephen Byers affair. A lie, not particularly important but quite deliberate, told in relation to an essentially minor matter. Theresa May's handling of the matter compares very favourably with Tony Blair's. She has taken a difficult but correct decision. Once a minister's reputation for integrity has been compromised, whatever the surrounding circumstances, there must be consequences. Her government will benefit from her decision.
I think Damian Green has some basis for feeling he has been treated harshly, not just by the police, but also by Theresa May. Although Green has no comeback on the precise point you make, the unimportant lie was in the context of a policeman acting unethically and possibly illegally.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
The Prime Minister will travel to Warsaw today for an annual summit designed to strengthen the relationship between the UK and Poland as Britain prepares to leave the EU.
The UK-Poland bilateral summit will bring together both Prime Ministers along with a number of senior Cabinet ministers, including the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Defence Secretary, Home Secretary and Business Secretary.
As an integral part of the summit, the Prime Minister is expected to announce a new joint UK-Poland Treaty on Defence and Security Co-operation. The only other European Union country we have such a treaty with is France.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
Don't like Damian Green much, but it's so obviously a smear campaign by some dodgy coppers.
Leaking perfectly legal information years after an investigation and after any evidence to the contrary is long gone.
And did you notice it went from "extreme porn" to "porn" and eventually to "porn thumbnails". The last of which used to get downloaded all the time by viruses and malware in crappy web browsers without the user knowing.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
I'd have thought that it's worth punters having a target price for laying Jeremy Hunt. There are far too many preening politicians who fancy themselves in the top job for him not to come under friendly fire fairly soon if the Hunt bandwagon starts rolling too fast.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
On the whole I think the public can distinguish between the sort of cops they see and meet day to day and those likely to be raiding Parliamentary offices.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
I'd have thought that it's worth punters having a target price for laying Jeremy Hunt. There are far too many preening politicians who fancy themselves in the top job for him not to come under friendly fire fairly soon if the Hunt bandwagon starts rolling too fast.
6/1 I will zero him on a green book, 3/1 I'll go deep red
Last weekend, I tipped Green not to be next minister out. Sorry if anyone lost money on this.
In mitigation, if the silly sod had been honest about knowing that there was porn on his computer - however it got there - he'd probably still be in post. But he's not and it's often the cover-up that gets you. That being so, the possibility that Green might have been economical with the truth in his explanations should have been a factor worth taking into account. Was he value at 1/3 knowing then what we did? Hard to say. It's a good rule of thumb that the favourite in this market is usually significantly under-priced (I remember Vince Cable once being 1/7 to be next to go, which would have been a loser), though Green was clearly an exception.
No apology needed, it was a good call on available evidence, even with the benefit of hindsight.
The Prime Minister will travel to Warsaw today for an annual summit designed to strengthen the relationship between the UK and Poland as Britain prepares to leave the EU.
The UK-Poland bilateral summit will bring together both Prime Ministers along with a number of senior Cabinet ministers, including the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Defence Secretary, Home Secretary and Business Secretary.
As an integral part of the summit, the Prime Minister is expected to announce a new joint UK-Poland Treaty on Defence and Security Co-operation. The only other European Union country we have such a treaty with is France.
Mr. Herdson, obviously tips that don't come off aren't great but we all get them wrong and an apology is not required. Everyone makes their own judgements, after all.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
I'd have thought that it's worth punters having a target price for laying Jeremy Hunt. There are far too many preening politicians who fancy themselves in the top job for him not to come under friendly fire fairly soon if the Hunt bandwagon starts rolling too fast.
6/1 I will zero him on a green book, 3/1 I'll go deep red
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
I'd have thought that it's worth punters having a target price for laying Jeremy Hunt. There are far too many preening politicians who fancy themselves in the top job for him not to come under friendly fire fairly soon if the Hunt bandwagon starts rolling too fast.
"I have no ambitions for high office but if called upon to serve my party and my country then I will of course do what is needed." might be what Hunt will say.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
On the whole I think the public can distinguish between the sort of cops they see and meet day to day and those likely to be raiding Parliamentary offices.
Which kind do they have doing security in Downing Street?
You could argue the methods here aren’t as bad than the methods that saw the expenses saga.
Sitting on the evidence for a decade before striking when Grern was weaken. Not a good fact pattern for public interest defence
I’m not defending the police.
I’m just pointing out the reality.
Iason?
Unusual.
He resigned specifically because he lied about being notified that the porn was found, and that he was not aware that it had been found. His solicitor was notified twice that it had been found at the time.
My post last nite was very brief. I referred to Green as a liar. That was all. Didn't elaborate at all. You said he wasn't. Now you are fictionalising my account.
Why?
because i misremembered your post - conflating you with the guardian.
At the time I thought he had omitted the fact he had been told - hadn't appreciated he'd specifically denied it
You seem weirdly fixated on something completely unimportant, but if it really matters to you I'm sorry.
Shit, Charles, I don't want an apolgy, ffs. If we can't have a knockabout without the need for somebody to apologise it's a sad state of affairs. This is not a Parliamentary Committee you know!
For what (little) it's worth I generally enjoy reading your posts and was surprised at your quick defence of what I thought was an untenable position. Maybe it was too quick. He plainly lied and whilst it might be noble to defend your mates, your cred goes if you do it against all the evidence.
I should say he's no loss and should be dropped without remorse. I expect he will be, and in the end he will matter little. Longer term, what's going on with the Plod is more important. They may not have lied, but you and I sure as hell didn't ought to be terrifically comfortable with what they did do.
Agreed?
I wasn't defending him - and think May was right to sack him. It's important people know why he was sacked - and what he wasn't sacked for. The ex-police have behaved appallingly
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
On the whole I think the public can distinguish between the sort of cops they see and meet day to day and those likely to be raiding Parliamentary offices.
“.... the kind of cops they see and meet day to day ...”
Have you walked out of an Ealing comedy from the 1930s?
The nearest police station to the medium-seized town in Wales where I live is over 50 miles away.
There is plenty of low-level crime, but the police don’t bother to come out.
I don’t see a policeman from one year to the next.
But he wont cause trouble for Mrs May because he is an old friend.
Damien Green is a faceless nonentity. He will fade away onto the backbenches. The voting public doesnt really care. Only the chattering classes will still be talking about this next week.
Nor does it weaken the government. The Tories will still be doing well in the polls (and for ANY government to be in the 40s and only a few points behind the Opposition is very unusual) because of Jeremy Corbyn, and in the long run it may benefit the government since it gets rid of another tired old face and allows new blood to enter the cabinet.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
On the whole I think the public can distinguish between the sort of cops they see and meet day to day and those likely to be raiding Parliamentary offices.
I should clarify, as I was woolly in the earlier comment. I don't mean that the police in general can't be trusted based on the actions of a few individuals. I was trying to say that for these specific officers, the fact that they were willing to break some procedures - and, quite possibly, laws - has to be relevant as to whether they can be trusted to tell the truth on all matters.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
A constant drip of stories like those mentioned will eventually have that effect on juries, they’ll certainly be more willing to question whether the accounts of policemen are accurate and believable. Not good for justice when that change happens, of course the majority of coppers are straight and want to see justice served in the correct manner.
Public trust is very important and I am not sure the Police value it as much as they should.
I am extremely law abiding and have had very limited exposure to the police. One of my few contacts followed a burglary in my house where I had a camera stolen. The police found a camera of the same model in a raid on a suspected burglar and called me in to identify the camera so they could link the suspect to a theft. It's curious how powerful recognition is because instantly I knew that wasn't my camera. I was put under quite a lot of pressure to say it was. I would get a camera and a thief would get the punishment he deserved. From the policeman's point of view, he was doing his job of putting bad ones away and I wasn't being helpful.
Mr. Herdson, obviously tips that don't come off aren't great but we all get them wrong and an apology is not required. Everyone makes their own judgements, after all.
That's very kind of you to say, and to Alastair and others too. Still feel a bit bad about it coming off the rails so quickly though.
This case has striking similarities to the Stephen Byers affair. A lie, not particularly important but quite deliberate, told in relation to an essentially minor matter. Theresa May's handling of the matter compares very favourably with Tony Blair's. She has taken a difficult but correct decision. Once a minister's reputation for integrity has been compromised, whatever the surrounding circumstances, there must be consequences. Her government will benefit from her decision.
I think Damian Green has some basis for feeling he has been treated harshly, not just by the police, but also by Theresa May. Although Green has no comeback on the precise point you make, the unimportant lie was in the context of a policeman acting unethically and possibly illegally.
If it was an unimportant matter, why did he lie about it? It was stupid, at the very least.
If someone lies about something unimportant, how can one trust them not to lie about something important?
Of course Green had to go. Silly man.
But the police’s behaviour - both in failing to destroy evidence they had been ordered by a court to do, in taking a police note book from police control, in revealing confidential information, other than as required by law, and in making unsubstantiated assertions about a person’s behaviour in the context of something which was not a criminal offence - is quite outrageous and an abuse of their power.
It is a pity that this point is being lost in the newspaper coverage. If the police can be as sloppy and as careless of their legal obligations in such a case, little wonder that they are incapable of complying with their legal obligations when a man faces a rape trial.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
On the whole I think the public can distinguish between the sort of cops they see and meet day to day and those likely to be raiding Parliamentary offices.
I should clarify, as I was woolly in the earlier comment. I don't mean that the police in general can't be trusted based on the actions of a few individuals. I was trying to say that for these specific officers, the fact that they were willing to break some procedures - and, quite possibly, laws - has to be relevant as to whether they can be trusted to tell the truth on all matters.
I should think this particular bunch ought to be regarded as highly suspect, David!
We will now discover if Damian Green is a true friend of Theresa May or not.
He must realise she had no choice - once he was in breach of minister's code?
He evidently didn't realise it - the exchange of letters makes it clear that he didn't think he should have been asked to go.
It's always difficult if people are long-standing friends and then one is promoted to be the other's boss - they often aren't quite sure how far they can take disagreements. Where one is caught lying it must be especially awkward. But I think he'd be best advised to lie low for a bit and then take up some worthy cause, rather than lash out at May at the first opportunity.
The police can leak false details to the press to discredit killed victims (de Menezes was running away! That Muslim was shot by his own brother and was a pedo anyway!) all they want, but when middle-aged Tory porn addicts get targeted PB for some reason takes it personally...
Well, the terrifying thing about this is seeing how they act with cabinet ministers who could potentially get back at them and, in the Plebgate case, also CCTV, think what they must be like when dealing with poor and/or uneducated people with little or no hope of defending themselves.
Juries really need to start routinely assuming that the police are lying to them.
Been on a few juries, Edmund. Not one thought the police were lying and in each case the possibility was discussed and discounted, correctly in my opinion. Doesn't mean they never do. Each case should be judged on its merits, on the evidence and using common sense.
They seem to me to have behaved badly in this case, but there is no reason to think they lied.
Green behaved badly, and lied (whatever Charles may say!)
Given that the police played fast and loose with procedures, that has impinge on the level of integrity one should expect of them in general.
On the whole I think the public can distinguish between the sort of cops they see and meet day to day and those likely to be raiding Parliamentary offices.
“.... the kind of cops they see and meet day to day ...”
Have you walked out of an Ealing comedy from the 1930s?
The nearest police station to the medium-seized town in Wales where I live is over 50 miles away.
There is plenty of low-level crime, but the police don’t bother to come out.
I don’t see a policeman from one year to the next.
Then come to London, Dear Boy. Enter via the M4 at 90 mph. You will very quickly see a policeman.
Ealing comedies were about 1948-1957. Similar vintage to me.
Potentially a bit of value in the Betfair Catalonian market - most recent polling points to the Cs having a good chance of getting the most seats. JxCat also seem to be staging a late surge - results due at 10pm.
ERC 2/5 Cs 7/4 JxCat 8/1
It's the seats part that's the issue.
There are four very unequal seats, with the Barcelona seat carrying a majority, but is even then underweighted in terms of population. I think that's what's contributing to some v different views.
I have Cs at about 2.4, only £20 though
Normally you'd expect ERC to walk this, but Puigdemont has the recognition and the status of (former) president, so he will get a lot of votes that would normally have gone to ERC. Ciutadans has a decent chance of coming through the middle as a result.
The thing to look out for is turnout in the dormitory towns around Barcelona where you'd expect the Unionist vote to be strongest. If voters do flock to the polls there it will be very significant.
What is key today is not who gets how many seats, but what overall percentage the UDI parties get. If it is over 50%, it is a game-changer. Anything less and it is ongoing stand-off, assuming they do not lose their overall majority of seats.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
The results seem to come out very quickly. Have they been decided in advance?
It seems there will be electronic voting in Catalonia - which of course is open to manipulation by Russian or other hackers.
News at the time of the October Catalan referendum was: "On Saturday a Catalan government spokesman said at least four police officers had entered the centre in Barcelona which controls the regional government’s telecommunications and IT and were expected to stay there for two days.
This followed an order by Catalonia’s High Court on Friday for police to prevent electronic voting taking place. The court also instructed Google to delete an application it said was being used to spread information on the vote. "
Could the Spanish poloce again be present in the IT centre when electronic votes are being "counted" ?
The Prime Minister will travel to Warsaw today for an annual summit designed to strengthen the relationship between the UK and Poland as Britain prepares to leave the EU.
The UK-Poland bilateral summit will bring together both Prime Ministers along with a number of senior Cabinet ministers, including the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Defence Secretary, Home Secretary and Business Secretary.
As an integral part of the summit, the Prime Minister is expected to announce a new joint UK-Poland Treaty on Defence and Security Co-operation. The only other European Union country we have such a treaty with is France.
Mr. Evershed, I'll never understand the infatuation some people have with electronic voting. We have a simple, robust system that works very well (outside of Tower Hamlets). Why bugger it up with something so vulnerable to outside manipulation?
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
Given Hunt was 8th in the last Conservative Home Tory members leadership poll, behind Mogg, Gove, Boris, Davis, Raab, Rudd and Stewart, he has a long way to go to be even in the top tier to succeed May, let alone be favourite
May survives for three reasons - one, there is no single opponent who can unify a significant portion of the Party against her. There are a number of potential successors each of whom has his or her own power base within the Parliamentary Party (which is all that counts until you are one of the last two) but none of whom has a decisive advantage or knows they can strike and win.
Second, the A50 negotiations. If the outcome is not deemed to be electorally popular, irrespective of whether it is in fact a good or bad deal for the country, May can carry the can and her successors can start with a fairly clean slate.
Third, May is not a loser, yet. Rather, no one else would be significantly better. Thatcher fell in 1990 because polls showed first Heseltine and then Major doing much better against Labour. Dewy-eyed Thatcherites tend to forget this - had the Conservatives gone into a 1991 election led by Thatcher they would have lost because a lot of the country were sick and tired of her by then. May's problems will only begin if the polls show a number of Conservative MPs losing their seats and jobs whereas said jobs would be safe with Boris or Gove or Hunt or whoever as leader.
Survation polling since the election indicates that May does as well as Boris and Davis against Corbyn and better than Hammond and Rudd
This case has striking similarities to the Stephen Byers affair. A lie, not particularly important but quite deliberate, told in relation to an essentially minor matter. Theresa May's handling of the matter compares very favourably with Tony Blair's. She has taken a difficult but correct decision. Once a minister's reputation for integrity has been compromised, whatever the surrounding circumstances, there must be consequences. Her government will benefit from her decision.
I think Damian Green has some basis for feeling he has been treated harshly, not just by the police, but also by Theresa May. Although Green has no comeback on the precise point you make, the unimportant lie was in the context of a policeman acting unethically and possibly illegally.
If it was an unimportant matter, why did he lie about it? It was stupid, at the very least.
If someone lies about something unimportant, how can one trust them not to lie about something important?
Of course Green had to go. Silly man.
But the police’s behaviour - both in failing to destroy evidence they had been ordered by a court to do, in taking a police note book from police control, in revealing confidential information, other than as required by law, and in making unsubstantiated assertions about a person’s behaviour in the context of something which was not a criminal offence - is quite outrageous and an abuse of their power.
It is a pity that this point is being lost in the newspaper coverage. If the police can be as sloppy and as careless of their legal obligations in such a case, little wonder that they are incapable of complying with their legal obligations when a man faces a rape trial.
Yes, unimportant indeed, Cyclefree. Just a thought though. It has been regularly stated that the porn was legal, but the law changed about eight weeks after the event and a lot of pretty toxic stuff was still legal at the time and certainly isn't now. This is pure guesswork, but it may be that those who knew exactly what was on the puter were in a position to make Green's position untenable.
On your substantive point, agree wholeheartedly. The police need to wotchit, and we need to watch them carefully now to make sure they wotchit.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
Given Hunt was 8th in the last Conservative Home Tory members leadership poll, behind Mogg, Gove, Boris, Davis, Raab, Rudd and Stewart, he has a long way to go to be even in the top tier to succeed May, let alone be favourite
Conhome polls mean absolutely diddly squat outside of an actual contest.
Talking of the police, I inadvertently discovered a foolproof way of getting them to come really quickly, when I rang them to say that I thought I had found an unexploded bomb on the edge of a field near our house. They arrived in minutes. They were surprisingly polite when the smooth rounded metal which had been uncovered by rain turned out to be part of an old pig-trough.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
Given Hunt was 8th in the last Conservative Home Tory members leadership poll, behind Mogg, Gove, Boris, Davis, Raab, Rudd and Stewart, he has a long way to go to be even in the top tier to succeed May, let alone be favourite
Conhome polls mean absolutely diddly squat outside of an actual contest.
They show who Tory members are likely to favour and given it is members who make the final decision between the final 2 chosen by MPs that is important
Must be hard to be Green. Decades in parliament. Reached the top of Government. Yet achieved nothing of note apart from notoriety at the end. You must ask what was the point of all that.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
Given Hunt was 8th in the last Conservative Home Tory members leadership poll, behind Mogg, Gove, Boris, Davis, Raab, Rudd and Stewart, he has a long way to go to be even in the top tier to succeed May, let alone be favourite
Conhome polls mean absolutely diddly squat outside of an actual contest.
and he is forgetting that the MPs get to pick the two that the members choose from. The order of preference of a long list of candidates amongst members - even if ConHome were representative, which it clearly isn't (just go read the comments sections!) - is pretty much irrelevant as to who the MPs might elect.
I'll believe it when she's on the plane. But it can only be a good sign.
Agree. Boris must have had a fairly good hunch about the chance of success when he finally got off his fat butt. I expect we've coughed up the money we owe them for that cancelled defence deal.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
Because it's porn and not reading the news.
Again, the question is "What was the warrant issued for"? Would you like your own computer to be subject to a fishing expedition?
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
Given Hunt was 8th in the last Conservative Home Tory members leadership poll, behind Mogg, Gove, Boris, Davis, Raab, Rudd and Stewart, he has a long way to go to be even in the top tier to succeed May, let alone be favourite
Conhome polls mean absolutely diddly squat outside of an actual contest.
and he is forgetting that the MPs get to pick the two that the members choose from. The order of preference of a long list of candidates amongst members - even if ConHome were representative, which it clearly isn't (just go read the comments sections!) - is pretty much irrelevant as to who the MPs might elect.
Con Home got the 2005 Tory leadership contest ( the last contest which went to the membership) spot on.
Given the final 2 are highly likely to come from those 8 the members polling cannot be ignored
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
Because most organisations have an internet usage policy that you sign , when you start working for them.This includes sites which you are not allowed to view , whilst at work..Most people working in the public sector would be suspended awaiting an investigation, if they had personally logged on and accessed porn .
He lied about whether he had ever been told by the police on his computer. Why would he do that? Because if he was officially told he would have had to officially investigate how it got there and he obviously didn't want to do that. Its difficult not to draw a certain inference from that.
Its dishonest but it seems a pretty minor thing to end a career. Its not hard to see why someone would have wanted to keep something like this as quiet as possible. It's not, after all, illegal. I can't help feeling that if the other allegation of inappropriate conduct was anything less than "plausible" he might have survived this. Mrs May has known him a long time. She will have her own views about how "plausible" that allegation may be and what the risk is of it being a one off.
I suppose this is what you get for thinking you are Frank Underwood and Zoe Barnes. My guess is that he will go fairly quietly and ideally be found some form of sinecure fairly soon.
The plaudits are coming in thick and fast for Jezza Hunt after his interview today. I think he will soon become the Tories' new golden boy. Where does this leave the other leadership hopefuls, now put in the shade by Hunt's mastery? They need to to reclaim the agenda. DD should threaten to resign (again); Boris has to write another article slagging off Theresa's approach to Brexit.
Given Hunt was 8th in the last Conservative Home Tory members leadership poll, behind Mogg, Gove, Boris, Davis, Raab, Rudd and Stewart, he has a long way to go to be even in the top tier to succeed May, let alone be favourite
Conhome polls mean absolutely diddly squat outside of an actual contest.
They show who Tory members are likely to favour and given it is members who make the final decision between the final 2 chosen by MPs that is important
Do they? That can't have been put to the test since 2005, and even if it was tested then, the site and its readership will have changed significantly in the intervening years.
Besides, a free-for-all vote is no substitute for head-to-head polling, which teases out all the transferred votes. And it's not the members who decide who's in the top tier; it's the MPs.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
Because most organisations have an internet usage policy that you sign , when you start working for them.This includes sites which you are not allowed to view , whilst at work..Most people working in the public sector would be suspended awaiting an investigation, if they had personally logged on and accessed porn .
Most organisations sack people for being drunk at work. Parliament is different.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
Because most organisations have an internet usage policy that you sign , when you start working for them.This includes sites which you are not allowed to view , whilst at work..Most people working in the public sector would be suspended awaiting an investigation, if they had personally logged on and accessed porn .
And most such policies allow limited reasonable private use - for example doing some online shopping or banking (with a 'b') during work breaks.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Sorry, I hadn't seen this when adding my tuppence worth but we are in agreement.
If a manager in most organisations was told by the police that there was porn on one of the office computers they would want to try to find out who was responsible. Unless they already knew - because it was them.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
Everyone operates their office computer for personal use from time to time - even if only to view the BBC news site or political betting of course.
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
For starters, you are putting your entire company's IT security at risk. Instant sacking.
Good to see. Hunt’s doing a very good job in the most difficult of departments.
The above comment is completely unrelated to him being my most profitable next PM.
Will Hunt becoming PM be one of PB's biggest ever payout days? Seems a few of us have taken the tip on this one.
Didn’t someone on here bet against Hunt at 50/1 if he makes the final 2? That will be a very bad day for him/her...
I only bet in a Boris/Mogg v Hunt final two the membership would back the former, that was the only circumstance that bet would apply
Actually no. AIR your bet was effectively whether Hunt or Boris/Mogg would become leader, and you lose if Hunt does, whoever else is in the final two. This was clarified on the day you made the deal. Just my recollection.
Comments
The public couldn't give a toss about Green and this will change nothing....
Do they know what it means?
https://twitter.com/johnmcternan/status/943777116373602304
Shit, Charles, I don't want an apolgy, ffs. If we can't have a knockabout without the need for somebody to apologise it's a sad state of affairs. This is not a Parliamentary Committee you know!
For what (little) it's worth I generally enjoy reading your posts and was surprised at your quick defence of what I thought was an untenable position. Maybe it was too quick. He plainly lied and whilst it might be noble to defend your mates, your cred goes if you do it against all the evidence.
I should say he's no loss and should be dropped without remorse. I expect he will be, and in the end he will matter little. Longer term, what's going on with the Plod is more important. They may not have lied, but you and I sure as hell didn't ought to be terrifically comfortable with what they did do.
Agreed?
http://catalannews.com/politics/item/voting-underway-in-catalonia
Last weekend, I tipped Green not to be next minister out. Sorry if anyone lost money on this.
In mitigation, if the silly sod had been honest about knowing that there was porn on his computer - however it got there - he'd probably still be in post. But he's not and it's often the cover-up that gets you. That being so, the possibility that Green might have been economical with the truth in his explanations should have been a factor worth taking into account. Was he value at 1/3 knowing then what we did? Hard to say. It's a good rule of thumb that the favourite in this market is usually significantly under-priced (I remember Vince Cable once being 1/7 to be next to go, which would have been a loser), though Green was clearly an exception.
The Prime Minister who assured the nation that there would be no early general election, and then called an early general election, sacks her Deputy PM for lying.
'Oh we make the standards and we make the rules
And if you don't abide by them you must be a fool
We have the power to control the whole land
You never must question our motives or plans'
Leaking perfectly legal information years after an investigation and after any evidence to the contrary is long gone.
And did you notice it went from "extreme porn" to "porn" and eventually to "porn thumbnails". The last of which used to get downloaded all the time by viruses and malware in crappy web browsers without the user knowing.
https://twitter.com/DanKaszeta/status/943636800618270721
- Trump
- Netanyahu
- Rajoy
and now May
https://tinyurl.com/ycer2hdz
McTernan won 81% of the votes in the 'Who'll be the WORST at predicting politics in 2017?' poll at the bottom of that piece.
Have you walked out of an Ealing comedy from the 1930s?
The nearest police station to the medium-seized town in Wales where I live is over 50 miles away.
There is plenty of low-level crime, but the police don’t bother to come out.
I don’t see a policeman from one year to the next.
Damien Green is a faceless nonentity. He will fade away onto the backbenches. The voting public doesnt really care. Only the chattering classes will still be talking about this next week.
Nor does it weaken the government. The Tories will still be doing well in the polls (and for ANY government to be in the 40s and only a few points behind the Opposition is very unusual) because of Jeremy Corbyn, and in the long run it may benefit the government since it gets rid of another tired old face and allows new blood to enter the cabinet.
(I have no idea whether it is or not, but you asked someone to tell it was and I like to be helpful)
https://twitter.com/GreekComedian/status/793487456305868801
I am extremely law abiding and have had very limited exposure to the police. One of my few contacts followed a burglary in my house where I had a camera stolen. The police found a camera of the same model in a raid on a suspected burglar and called me in to identify the camera so they could link the suspect to a theft. It's curious how powerful recognition is because instantly I knew that wasn't my camera. I was put under quite a lot of pressure to say it was. I would get a camera and a thief would get the punishment he deserved. From the policeman's point of view, he was doing his job of putting bad ones away and I wasn't being helpful.
There is no way the author of that question has English as a first language, so we should actually be praising Man City Council for its inclusiveness.
If someone lies about something unimportant, how can one trust them not to lie about something important?
Of course Green had to go. Silly man.
But the police’s behaviour - both in failing to destroy evidence they had been ordered by a court to do, in taking a police note book from police control, in revealing confidential information, other than as required by law, and in making unsubstantiated assertions about a person’s behaviour in the context of something which was not a criminal offence - is quite outrageous and an abuse of their power.
It is a pity that this point is being lost in the newspaper coverage. If the police can be as sloppy and as careless of their legal obligations in such a case, little wonder that they are incapable of complying with their legal obligations when a man faces a rape trial.
It's always difficult if people are long-standing friends and then one is promoted to be the other's boss - they often aren't quite sure how far they can take disagreements. Where one is caught lying it must be especially awkward. But I think he'd be best advised to lie low for a bit and then take up some worthy cause, rather than lash out at May at the first opportunity.
Ealing comedies were about 1948-1957. Similar vintage to me.
The thing to look out for is turnout in the dormitory towns around Barcelona where you'd expect the Unionist vote to be strongest. If voters do flock to the polls there it will be very significant.
What is key today is not who gets how many seats, but what overall percentage the UDI parties get. If it is over 50%, it is a game-changer. Anything less and it is ongoing stand-off, assuming they do not lose their overall majority of seats.
Green was told, and then seemingly did not try to find out who was responsible. And then tried to cover up the fact he had been told.
Draw your own conclusions.
News at the time of the October Catalan referendum was:
"On Saturday a Catalan government spokesman said at least four police officers had entered the centre in Barcelona which controls the regional government’s telecommunications and IT and were expected to stay there for two days.
This followed an order by Catalonia’s High Court on Friday for police to prevent electronic voting taking place. The court also instructed Google to delete an application it said was being used to spread information on the vote. "
Could the Spanish poloce again be present in the IT centre when electronic votes are being "counted" ?
Good news for Boris.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/943772419604516865
On your substantive point, agree wholeheartedly. The police need to wotchit, and we need to watch them carefully now to make sure they wotchit.
https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1967383340253068
Unless the porn was illegal why should/would anyone be bothered?
Given the final 2 are highly likely to come from those 8 the members polling cannot be ignored
The above comment is completely unrelated to him being my most profitable next PM.
That will be a very bad day for him/her...
Its dishonest but it seems a pretty minor thing to end a career. Its not hard to see why someone would have wanted to keep something like this as quiet as possible. It's not, after all, illegal. I can't help feeling that if the other allegation of inappropriate conduct was anything less than "plausible" he might have survived this. Mrs May has known him a long time. She will have her own views about how "plausible" that allegation may be and what the risk is of it being a one off.
I suppose this is what you get for thinking you are Frank Underwood and Zoe Barnes. My guess is that he will go fairly quietly and ideally be found some form of sinecure fairly soon.
Besides, a free-for-all vote is no substitute for head-to-head polling, which teases out all the transferred votes. And it's not the members who decide who's in the top tier; it's the MPs.