The UK is going to be the first country to sign up to the full conditions of EU membership, and pay the full fee, without actually being a member and having a vote.
Awesome!!!
That's exactly the EU's objective. Juncker: "Brexit cannot be a success."
I expect our Government to negotiate skilfully, not ineptly.
Trouble is, what they want is not possible. You simply cannot have your cake and eat it.
No, it exposes the weakness of the hand that our Remain-voting PM and most of her Cabinet think they've got, as opposed to the hand they actually hold. They're playing poker under the impression that aces rank low not high, and the EU knows it. It's utterly exasperating to watch.
I'd been undecided till now, but if Nigel Farage is crying betrayal, this has to be a reasonable deal.
Who gives a toss what Farage thinks! Not UKIP leader, not an MP and now revealed as a man who recycles anti-Semitic tropes, allies himself with German Fascists and sees nothing wrong with retweeting Britain First propaganda.......
The less regard we give him, the better as far as I’m concerned.
There's some former Kippers on here who will accuse you of smearing Farage by accusing him of recycling anti-Semitic tropes.
Let them. And I can point to the statements he’s made about Jewish influence and the like.
I call out Corbyn and his mates when they do the same. I’m not going to give Farage and his friends a free pass on this.
Disgraceful views are disgraceful, no matter who says them.
So: 1. DUP say no deal 2. Irish government vetos next round 3. May left with no majority and scores of backbenchers very hostile 4. Concensus that May must go but not on who to replace her 5. Tories only agree on not letting Jezbollah into Downing Street. Can scrape a confidence vote but nothing else 6. Leaves us with Tories stuck in office unable to agree never mind legislate, fighting like Ferrets in adjoining trouser legs until Parliament eventually expires and they get put down
Brexit is happening, and can only be overridden by a new GE and, most likely, a second referendum where the EU would offer worse terms than Dave's deal. Because it's in their DNA to punish splitters.
We are committed.
It's wishful thinking by Remainers. Nothing more.
Not leaving now would ruin any regard peole have for Westminster.
with the betrayal of Brexit going on today in Brussels I can see 48 signatures to the 1922 committee after tonights 4pm Tory MP meeting. JRM on the ballot to deliver Real Brexit
In a vote of no confidence, she'll get a 100+ majority of Tory MPs. She can then tell the hard line Brexiteers "Go whistle". If I were May, I'd be saying "Bring it on" - perhaps even encouraging a vote of no confidence to establish her position.
So: 1. DUP say no deal 2. Irish government vetos next round 3. May left with no majority and scores of backbenchers very hostile 4. Concensus that May must go but not on who to replace her 5. Tories only agree on not letting Jezbollah into Downing Street. Can scrape a confidence vote but nothing else 6. Leaves us with Tories stuck in office unable to agree never mind legislate, fighting like Ferrets in adjoining trouser legs until Parliament eventually expires and they get put down
Or, we could go EFTA/EEA...
EFTA/EEA is not a simple solution, politically, diplomatically or economically. Only cancelling Brexit offers a way out.
I'd been undecided till now, but if Nigel Farage is crying betrayal, this has to be a reasonable deal.
Who gives a toss what Farage thinks! Not UKIP leader, not an MP and now revealed as a man who recycles anti-Semitic tropes, allies himself with German Fascists and sees nothing wrong with retweeting Britain First propaganda.......
The less regard we give him, the better as far as I’m concerned.
There's some former Kippers on here who will accuse you of smearing Farage by accusing him of recycling anti-Semitic tropes.
Let them. And I can point to the statements he’s made about Jewish influence and the like.
I call out Corbyn and his mates when they do the same. I’m not going to give Farage and his friends a free pass on this.
Disgraceful views are disgraceful, no matter who says them.
He can get stuffed. The Welsh voted for Brexit so they can suffer the consequences.
Ceredigion and Gwynedd didn't, though. And hence the problem. Where do you draw the line?
If Northern Ireland, why not Scotland? If Scotland, why not London? If London, why not Manchester? If Manchester, why not the Oxford/Cambridge belt?
You have to draw the line somewhere or you'll go into the pub for one pint and not leave until you've had 14. Carwyn Jones asked for Wales as a whole and Wales as a whole voted for Brexit so it can do one.
Though I agree with you that Theresa May has started a game of constitutional striptease. Far naughtier than running through a wheatfield.
Can you please not use the word striptrease and Theresa May in the same sentence.
I was thinking of using "constitutional striptease" in a thread header. Oh well.
Please do. But only if you also use the phrase “Pole” or “poll dancing” as well.
The terms "wake up" and "smell the coffee" has come up. What happened to the £350m per week to the NHS ?
The U.K. gov will be able to provide hundreds of millions of pounds per week extra for the NHS from the Brexit dividend it will get after the end of the transition.
Conveniently, this will be just ahead of the next election
If the DUP are going to try and torpedo the deal it is time for the Lib Dems and Labour to support the government to ensure we have a decent Brexit deal.
we want Jezza
If labour sniff the chance of a GE they'll not be proping up the government. Screw brexit and a deal.
And if they become the government, what then? The Irish border issue will still be there, with even less time to resolve it.
Who cares? They will be in government and no one is going to vote the first lot back in again, whatever they decide. Although Keir Starmer has made it pretty clear that there will be single market and customs union for all (the UK!).
No, it exposes the weakness of the hand that our Remain-voting PM and most of her Cabinet think they've got, as opposed to the hand they actually hold. They're playing poker under the impression that aces rank low not high, and the EU knows it. It's utterly exasperating to watch.
What are those aces?
As @rcs1000 has put it, we've failed to make the walk away threat have even he appearance of reality.
The threat of losing easy access to a huge market in goods would do wonders to focus the minds of European finance ministers. You know, the ones who pay the EU membership dues...
The terms "wake up" and "smell the coffee" has come up. What happened to the £350m per week to the NHS ?
The U.K. gov will be able to provide hundreds of millions of pounds per week extra for the NHS from the Brexit dividend it will get after the end of the transition.
Conveniently, this will be just ahead of the next election
We have not even started talking about the access fee to the EU market yet. Like Norway pays. This €55bn has nothing to do with that.
- The Irish government are seen to have 'won' something - The DUP are seen to have ensured that the Irish government haven't won anything - The EU27 are seen to have driven a hard bargain - The UK government is seen to have displeased the hardline Brexiteers - The talks move on the actual substance of the future relationship
The day's events are Kabuki, the remainers are desperate for bukakke...
No, it exposes the weakness of the hand that our Remain-voting PM and most of her Cabinet think they've got, as opposed to the hand they actually hold. They're playing poker under the impression that aces rank low not high, and the EU knows it. It's utterly exasperating to watch.
What are those aces?
As @rcs1000 has put it, we've failed to make the walk away threat have even he appearance of reality.
The threat of losing easy access to a huge market in goods would do wonders to focus the minds of European finance ministers. You know, the ones who pay the EU membership dues...
No one except the hard Brexiteers ever believed the walk away threat was credible.
Saw this on my feed just now, apparently according to the article Tory MPs are concerned about this:
https://twitter.com/sayeedawarsi/status/937703286198734849 The comments below the line kind of highlight why the Tories have these kind of issues in the first place. The Times comments’ section these days seems to be almost identical to the Mail and the Telegraph. Given that all these comments section seem to have an incredibly hostile attitude to immigrants, minorities and/or young voters it’s no wonder why the latter two demographics aren’t rushing to the Conservatives despite not being raging lefties.
No, it exposes the weakness of the hand that our Remain-voting PM and most of her Cabinet think they've got, as opposed to the hand they actually hold. They're playing poker under the impression that aces rank low not high, and the EU knows it. It's utterly exasperating to watch.
What are those aces?
As @rcs1000 has put it, we've failed to make the walk away threat have even he appearance of reality.
The threat of losing easy access to a huge market in goods would do wonders to focus the minds of European finance ministers. You know, the ones who pay the EU membership dues...
So our ace in the hole was to build Potemkin border posts to make it look like we were serious?
Totally, totally O/t but I’ve just been sent down to our local PO for stamps for our Christmas Cards. They have no second class ones; sold out on Tuesday, and have been told they won’t have any more for three weeks!
Brexit is happening, and can only be overridden by a new GE and, most likely, a second referendum where the EU would offer worse terms than Dave's deal. Because it's in their DNA to punish splitters.
We are committed.
It's wishful thinking by Remainers. Nothing more.
Not leaving now would ruin any regard peole have for Westminster.
So as far as I can tell the DUP want to legalise abortion in NI as they want no divergence with the rest of the UK?
And gay marriage...
Perhaps a quid pro quo can be designed whereby the DUP give up their opposition to the single market in return for alignment with the mainland on gay marriage and abortion?
Totally, totally O/t but I’ve just been sent down to our local PO for stamps for our Christmas Cards. They have no second class ones; sold out on Tuesday, and have been told they won’t have any more for three weeks!
Grrrr
If you have any from previous years you can use them. We checked having some from 2012 and were told they are OK
No, it exposes the weakness of the hand that our Remain-voting PM and most of her Cabinet think they've got, as opposed to the hand they actually hold. They're playing poker under the impression that aces rank low not high, and the EU knows it. It's utterly exasperating to watch.
What are those aces?
As @rcs1000 has put it, we've failed to make the walk away threat have even he appearance of reality.
The threat of losing easy access to a huge market in goods would do wonders to focus the minds of European finance ministers. You know, the ones who pay the EU membership dues...
As long as the EU is unlikely ever to offer a deal worse than no deal, no deal is an empty threat. That EU deal doesn't have to be a good deal. It just has to be better than nothing. There is no workable solution that doesn't involve us in a deep relationship with the EU on its terms. Other relationships are possible, but they are not going to work. Once you realise that, the options become clearer.
So as far as I can tell the DUP want to legalise abortion in NI as they want no divergence with the rest of the UK?
And gay marriage...
Perhaps a quid pro quo can be designed whereby the DUP give up their opposition to the single market in return for alignment with the mainland on gay marriage and abortion?
And the Irish Republic could align with UK excise duties, thus putting an end to cross-border smuggling without the need for any border controls.
The terms "wake up" and "smell the coffee" has come up. What happened to the £350m per week to the NHS ?
The U.K. gov will be able to provide hundreds of millions of pounds per week extra for the NHS from the Brexit dividend it will get after the end of the transition.
Conveniently, this will be just ahead of the next election
We have not even started talking about the access fee to the EU market yet. Like Norway pays. This €55bn has nothing to do with that.
The fee should be proportionate to imports from each other ie the EU pays the UK a net amount to get acess to our UK market.
Totally, totally O/t but I’ve just been sent down to our local PO for stamps for our Christmas Cards. They have no second class ones; sold out on Tuesday, and have been told they won’t have any more for three weeks!
Grrrr
If you have any from previous years you can use them. We checked having some from 2012 and were told they are OK
I know, but we have nowhwere near enough! Thanks for the thought though.
The terms "wake up" and "smell the coffee" has come up. What happened to the £350m per week to the NHS ?
The U.K. gov will be able to provide hundreds of millions of pounds per week extra for the NHS from the Brexit dividend it will get after the end of the transition.
Conveniently, this will be just ahead of the next election
We have not even started talking about the access fee to the EU market yet. Like Norway pays. This €55bn has nothing to do with that.
The fee should be proportionate to imports from each other ie the EU pays the UK a net amount to get acess to our UK market.
"Should" means sweet FA. It has to be another negotiation. Brexiters are in for another shock. First, "we don't have to pay anything" became €55bn. The another annual payment will come in which no one has as yet factored in. The fun has just started.
He can get stuffed. The Welsh voted for Brexit so they can suffer the consequences.
Ceredigion and Gwynedd didn't, though. And hence the problem. Where do you draw the line?
If Northern Ireland, why not Scotland? If Scotland, why not London? If London, why not Manchester? If Manchester, why not the Oxford/Cambridge belt?
Fine, so long as I can opt-out of Corbyn coz I live in true-blue Hampshire.
Otherwise this is people moaning that their own political views should override the social union of the nation state, which is arguably what got us to Brexit in the first place.
Leave were quite happy to play with the social union of the nation during the referendum campaign and play one section off against another. Best not to complain now that its boomeranged.
Neither Leave or Remain did anything past political campaigns had not, it's just the stakes were far higher.
I recommend you try and hang around your old friend confirmation bias a little less often.
So as far as I can tell the DUP want to legalise abortion in NI as they want no divergence with the rest of the UK?
And gay marriage...
Perhaps a quid pro quo can be designed whereby the DUP give up their opposition to the single market in return for alignment with the mainland on gay marriage and abortion?
And the Irish Republic could align with UK excise duties, thus putting an end to cross-border smuggling without the need for any border controls.
There will be only one country making the concessions. It is not the RoI. Now we know what the UK was close to agreeing to. Only the DUP is the stumbling block.
Totally, totally O/t but I’ve just been sent down to our local PO for stamps for our Christmas Cards. They have no second class ones; sold out on Tuesday, and have been told they won’t have any more for three weeks!
Grrrr
If you have any from previous years you can use them. We checked having some from 2012 and were told they are OK
I know, but we have nowhwere near enough! Thanks for the thought though.
The UK is going to be the first country to sign up to the full conditions of EU membership, and pay the full fee, without actually being a member and having a vote.
Awesome!!!
That's exactly the EU's objective. Juncker: "Brexit cannot be a success."
I expect our Government to negotiate skilfully, not ineptly.
Trouble is, what they want is not possible. You simply cannot have your cake and eat it.
There is a political reality within which the UK has to triangulate during the negotiations, just as the EU does, yes.
That doesn't mean it can't be done skilfully and to mutual benefit.
The mistake Remainers make is to declare the existence of the former negates any ability to do the latter, and takes any critique of the latter by Leavers as evidence for it.
Totally, totally O/t but I’ve just been sent down to our local PO for stamps for our Christmas Cards. They have no second class ones; sold out on Tuesday, and have been told they won’t have any more for three weeks!
Grrrr
If you have any from previous years you can use them. We checked having some from 2012 and were told they are OK
I know, but we have nowhwere near enough! Thanks for the thought though.
She did this when she prematurely announced the deal with the DUP.
The woman is useless.
Yeh, the trouble with politics is you have to actually talk to other people, not just your husband and two key aides.
The other trouble with politics is that people try to play games to gain an advantage. Remainer's first instinct is to blame the UK government; it is more likely that the EU and/or ROI are playing games here.
It's hard to see the DUP getting on board now - their grassroots will be screaming blue murder and they will be forced to take a harder line.
The only way to take a credible harder line on no GB/NI border is to reverse support for Brexit.
That would really put the UK government on the spot.
The people of Northern Ireland did vote to stay in the UK, i.e. the Single Market and the Customs Union. It is the DUP which is reneging on the people's democratic wishes. The DUP have no MPs in the mainland - so they should not worry about the rUK.
She did this when she prematurely announced the deal with the DUP.
The woman is useless.
Yeh, the trouble with politics is you have to actually talk to other people, not just your husband and two key aides.
The other trouble with politics is that people try to play games to gain an advantage. Remainer's first instinct is to blame the UK government; it is more likely that the EU and/or ROI are playing games here.
Who cares who's playing games - the UK Govt has to get a deal that works for the UK. It seems not to be able to do this, right now.
You do have to wonder if the press, politicians and others would do everyone a service if they stopped speculation and waited for the end result.
It is clear the Irish tried to bounce TM with the aid of the EU and it has not worked
And it seems that TM was completely unprepared for what was a totally predictable gambit on the part of the Irish.
It's hard to see the DUP getting on board now - their grassroots will be screaming blue murder and they will be forced to take a harder line.
Bit premature - as I said let's see how this pans out. Remember the Irish, the EU and the commission have been counting their chickens all day but not TM or her spokes persons who have been much more cautious
It's hard to see the DUP getting on board now - their grassroots will be screaming blue murder and they will be forced to take a harder line.
The only way to take a credible harder line on no GB/NI border is to reverse support for Brexit.
That would really put the UK government on the spot.
The people of Northern Ireland did vote to stay in the UK, i.e. the Single Market and the Customs Union. It is the DUP which is reneging on the people's democratic wishes. The DUP have no MPs in the mainland - so they should not worry about the rUK.
It's hard to see the DUP getting on board now - their grassroots will be screaming blue murder and they will be forced to take a harder line.
The only way to take a credible harder line on no GB/NI border is to reverse support for Brexit.
That would really put the UK government on the spot.
The people of Northern Ireland did vote to stay in the UK, i.e. the Single Market and the Customs Union. It is the DUP which is reneging on the people's democratic wishes. The DUP have no MPs in the mainland - so they should not worry about the rUK.
The people of NI voted LEAVE.
56/44 Remain. The Tory government since 2010 have completely screwed this country. I can't remember such a shambolic self serving load of shits in my lifetime.
Comments
I call out Corbyn and his mates when they do the same. I’m not going to give Farage and his friends a free pass on this.
Disgraceful views are disgraceful, no matter who says them.
1. DUP say no deal
2. Irish government vetos next round
3. May left with no majority and scores of backbenchers very hostile
4. Concensus that May must go but not on who to replace her
5. Tories only agree on not letting Jezbollah into Downing Street. Can scrape a confidence vote but nothing else
6. Leaves us with Tories stuck in office unable to agree never mind legislate, fighting like Ferrets in adjoining trouser legs until Parliament eventually expires and they get put down
Or, we could go EFTA/EEA...
Not leaving now would ruin any regard peole have for Westminster.
We are heading towards a second referendum.
https://twitter.com/KirstyStricklan/status/937250451422175233
Conveniently, this will be just ahead of the next election
Notice that all the Press Conferences are now on hold so maybe TM is refuting the EU's Irish statement and looks like a deal will not happen today
The threat of losing easy access to a huge market in goods would do wonders to focus the minds of European finance ministers. You know, the ones who pay the EU membership dues...
https://twitter.com/sayeedawarsi/status/937703286198734849
The comments below the line kind of highlight why the Tories have these kind of issues in the first place. The Times comments’ section these days seems to be almost identical to the Mail and the Telegraph. Given that all these comments section seem to have an incredibly hostile attitude to immigrants, minorities and/or young voters it’s no wonder why the latter two demographics aren’t rushing to the Conservatives despite not being raging lefties.
Grrrr
Good.
What a mess Brexit is turning into. Also, I don’t think I can deal with another GE.
https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/937710928413458433
It is clear the Irish tried to bounce TM with the aid of the EU and it has not worked
What about the financial passport ?
The woman is useless.
I recommend you try and hang around your old friend confirmation bias a little less often.
Mr. Fenman, I think that's a credible possibility, although still unlikely.
Mr. Eagles, May is poor. We do seem to be in an Arcadius/Honorius sort of period.
That doesn't mean it can't be done skilfully and to mutual benefit.
The mistake Remainers make is to declare the existence of the former negates any ability to do the latter, and takes any critique of the latter by Leavers as evidence for it.
It's hard to see the DUP getting on board now - their grassroots will be screaming blue murder and they will be forced to take a harder line.
That would really put the UK government on the spot.
The only thing that is clear is that absolutely nothing is clear.
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