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In the last 24 hours or so, a couple of polls have been released on the Scottish Independence Referendum, one with a large lead for the no side, and one with a lead for the yes side, so how to make sense of this,

Read the full story here

CarlottaVance

First!

RobD

I just wish pollsters would ask the exact same question, (i.e. the actual referendum question), then deal with any additional questions after. Is it that hard?!

RichardNabavi

'Scotland leaving the United Kingdom and being an independent country’ a description that might have been thought capable of discouraging some respondents from saying Yes.”

Are Scots really so thick that they don't realise that that is what a Yes vote means?

If so, surely YouGov are right to formulate the question in that way, because it will presumably be spelled out during the campaign.

JosiasJessop

Off-topic and hilarious:

London skyscraper melts car.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23930675

Mick_Pork

RichardNabavi said:

Are Scots really so thick that they don't realise that that is what a Yes vote means?

If so, surely YouGov are right to formulate the question in that way, because it will presumably be spelled out during the campaign.

Are comical incompetent tory spinners so thick that they don't realise that amusingly partisan preamble won't be on the ballot?

It appears so.

*chortle*

Mick_Pork

The glorious spectacle of complete and utter complaceny from SLAB and better together is wonderful to behold.

Just like it was before the 2011 scottish elections.

CarlottaVance

Mick_Pork said:

RichardNabavi said:

Are Scots really so thick that they don't realise that that is what a Yes vote means?

If so, surely YouGov are right to formulate the question in that way, because it will presumably be spelled out during the campaign.

Are comical incompetent tory spinners so thick that they don't realise that amusingly partisan preamble won't be on the ballot?

It appears so.

*chortle*

Are blustering Nats so dim to believe that "YOU'RE VOTING TO LEAVE THE UK" won't feature prominently in the referendum run up?

Titters......

RichardNabavi

Mick_Pork said:

RichardNabavi said:

Are Scots really so thick that they don't realise that that is what a Yes vote means?

If so, surely YouGov are right to formulate the question in that way, because it will presumably be spelled out during the campaign.

Are comical incompetent tory spinners so thick that they don't realise that amusingly partisan preamble won't be on the ballot?

It appears so.

*chortle*

No, Pork. Even the thickest Tory spinner would realise that the ballot paper won't have a preamble about whether Scotland could be a successful independent country.

I can't vouch for porcine SNP spinners, of course.

Mick_Pork

I see the inept tory spinners mood still hasn't improved after Cammie Blair's bombnishambles.

"Near perfect", wasn't it?

Ministers face sack over Syria shambles - Telegraph

At least five Government ministers face the sack in the wake of David Cameron’s humiliating failure to secure parliamentary backing for military strikes against the Syrian regime.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10277598/Ministers-face-sack-over-Syria-shambles.html

Poor old incompetent fops what a shame.

*tears of laughter etc* ;^ )

Mick_Pork

Sandy Mathers ‏@macteeth 1 Sep

RT @MorayMP: Must Read: UK Govt allowed sale of nerve gas chemicals to Syria 10 months after the war began. RT http://embedle.com/e/9c8Cf78j#..http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/britain-sold-nerve-gas-chemicals-2242520 …

At least it wasn't a supergun like with Iraq.

CarlottaVance

Mick_Pork said:

I see the inept tory spinners mood still hasn't improved after Cammie Blair's bombnishambles.

*tears of laughter etc* ;^ )

A story from 2 days ago?

Do keep up!

Why don't you tell us why John Curtice is wrong about the SNP poll?

RichardNabavi

Whilst the prospect of a Yes vote still looks remote, it behoves political punters to ask how remote. At the time of writing, you can get 6.2 from Betfair (less commission) on Yes in the referendum itself, or 7.5 from Coral (7.0 from Wm Hill) on independence being achieved by 2020. I would have thought there is a negligible chance of independence not being achieved in that timescale, if there's a Yes result next year, so I would think that the Coral odds are the most attractive available if you want to go against the crowd consensus.

At that level, I must say I'm tempted, at least to lock in profits from earlier bets on No.

Mick_Pork

Panelbase asked the question without a biased preamble, yougov did not.

Nor is the ordering of questions unique.

Pro-independence campaign storms back into the lead for first time since 2011

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes 44% (+7)
No 43% (-3)

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/pro-independence-campaign-storms-into.html

To answer your question, the datasets are out, and the main referendum question is listed third. I'm not sure whether that means all respondents were asked the question third, or whether the order was selected in a random order for each respondent (as was apparently the case for the recent Panelbase poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland). In any case, it's worth making the point that it's by no means standard to ask the referendum question first - typically both Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions will be asked for first, which theoretically could skew the outcome.

I agree that, since the referendum is now the most important upcoming vote, it would be best practice to always ask that question first. But this poll is scarcely unique (or even unusual) in failing to follow that best practice

Carola

tim said:

Stupid stupid policy of getting rid of the census.

It is only because the census is our most accurate count of the population that we can tell, using it, whether mortality rates, university admission rates, employment rates or almost any other rates are rising or falling for particular groups in particular parts of the country over time. In calculating rates the numerators tend to be more reliably measured: deaths registered, students enrolled, or paying jobs in these three cases. Errors tend to be greater in the denominators, the population estimates. The census counts, corrected for estimates of under-enumeration, are the best denominators we have. An ID card system that relied on people being compelled to register their place of residence would be more accurate, but also far more intrusive.

The most important task of the decennial census is in updating annual population estimates for small areas to remove systematic bias so that a huge number of studies and also funding calculations can be enacted. However, the census is of much greater use than that. The census does not just count people, but how they are related, their families and the households they live in. The census also counts cars and tells us how many people use cycles and how many go by train to get to work. It tells us how many families with children have no car. DVLA cannot do that. It is also as much a count of dwellings, of "flats and houses", commuting vehicles, caravans and beds in halls of residents – as it is an enumeration of people. The 1991 census told us that a borough's worth of housing had been added to London which was not included in the government's records.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/02/national-census?CMP=twt_gu

Just reading this. A lot of data-gathering has bit the dust:

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21579016-coalition-government-showing-worrying-disregard-data-stats-spats-and-spads

CarlottaVance

Mick_Pork said:

Panelbase asked the q

So did YouGov - just with different preambles;

Panelbase:

There will be a referendum on independent Scotland on the 18th of September 2014. How do you intend to vote in response to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country?

YouGov:

If there was a referendum tomorrow on Scotland leaving the United Kingdom and becoming an Independent Country and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Scotland be an independent country?

It was YouGov's first question, Panelbase's third....

JosiasJessop

tim said:

Stupid stupid policy of getting rid of the census.

It is only because the census is our most accurate count of the population that we can tell, using it, whether mortality rates, university admission rates, employment rates or almost any other rates are rising or falling for particular groups in particular parts of the country over time. In calculating rates the numerators tend to be more reliably measured: deaths registered, students enrolled, or paying jobs in these three cases. Errors tend to be greater in the denominators, the population estimates. The census counts, corrected for estimates of under-enumeration, are the best denominators we have. An ID card system that relied on people being compelled to register their place of residence would be more accurate, but also far more intrusive.

The most important task of the decennial census is in updating annual population estimates for small areas to remove systematic bias so that a huge number of studies and also funding calculations can be enacted. However, the census is of much greater use than that. The census does not just count people, but how they are related, their families and the households they live in. The census also counts cars and tells us how many people use cycles and how many go by train to get to work. It tells us how many families with children have no car. DVLA cannot do that. It is also as much a count of dwellings, of "flats and houses", commuting vehicles, caravans and beds in halls of residents – as it is an enumeration of people. The 1991 census told us that a borough's worth of housing had been added to London which was not included in the government's records.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/02/national-census?CMP=twt_gu

I tend to agree. Although we have many other ways of gathering population data (and there are more every year), the census will act as a baseline, a way of checking and biasing the other data.

Keep the census!

RichardNabavi

Vodafone say $84bn will be dished out to shareholders: "All the stock [$60.2bn] will go to shareholders, plus $23.9 billion in cash, after the deal is finalized, likely to be in the first quarter of 2014."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/02/us-vodafone-verizon-vodafone-idUSBRE9810H120130902

To put that in perspective, before the deal rumours surfaced last week, Vodafone's market cap was £92bn, or $142bn

CarlottaVance

Mick_Pork said:

Panelbase asked the question without a biased preamble, yougov did not.

In your view.

The surveys:

http://www.panelbase.com/news/SNPPollTables020903.pdf

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/2rnh7dcu0g/YG-Archive-Devo-Plus-results-220813-Scottish-independence.pdf

John Curtice opinion:

"All survey researchers are aware that the responses they get depend can not only depend on the exact wording of the question they ask, but also on what questions have been asked immediately beforehand. There is good reason to believe that this proved important in this case. By prefacing the referendum voting intention poll with two questions that elicited a response favourable to the Yes side, some respondents could well have been cued into saying Yes when they otherwise would not have done so."

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2013/09/snppanelbase-poll-shows-one-point-yes-lead/

CarlottaVance

JosiasJessop said:

tim said:

Stupid stupid policy of getting rid of the census.

It is only because the census is our most accurate count of the population that we can tell, using it, whether mortality rates, university admission rates, employment rates or almost any other rates are rising or falling for particular groups in particular parts of the country over time. In calculating rates the numerators tend to be more reliably measured: deaths registered, students enrolled, or paying jobs in these three cases. Errors tend to be greater in the denominators, the population estimates. The census counts, corrected for estimates of under-enumeration, are the best denominators we have. An ID card system that relied on people being compelled to register their place of residence would be more accurate, but also far more intrusive.

The most important task of the decennial census is in updating annual population estimates for small areas to remove systematic bias so that a huge number of studies and also funding calculations can be enacted. However, the census is of much greater use than that. The census does not just count people, but how they are related, their families and the households they live in. The census also counts cars and tells us how many people use cycles and how many go by train to get to work. It tells us how many families with children have no car. DVLA cannot do that. It is also as much a count of dwellings, of "flats and houses", commuting vehicles, caravans and beds in halls of residents – as it is an enumeration of people. The 1991 census told us that a borough's worth of housing had been added to London which was not included in the government's records.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/02/national-census?CMP=twt_gu

I tend to agree. Although we have many other ways of gathering population data (and there are more every year), the census will act as a baseline, a way of checking and biasing the other data.

Keep the census!

Agree - seems to be too clever by half.....

Mick_Pork

CarlottaVance said:

Mick_Pork said:

Panelbase asked the q

So did YouGov - just with different preambles;

Panelbase:

There will be a referendum on independent Scotland on the 18th of September 2014. How do you intend to vote in response to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country?

YouGov:

If there was a referendum tomorrow on Scotland leaving the United Kingdom and becoming an Independent Country and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Scotland be an independent country?

It was YouGov's first question, Panelbase's third....

One was set in the terms that better together try to spin as well as making the obvious mistake of pretending the referendum vote was tomorrow. One was a simple factual statement with the correct date.

Yougov asked Westminster VI and Holyrood. They also didn’t report what they found once weighted for some strange reason. So I'm afraid it may well not have been the first question.

No matter. It is no surprise to us that a good poll for Yes is treated with disdain while a good poll for No is not. It wouldn't be so amusing if that wasn't the always case on here.

Some of us also remember which pollsters and indeed which pundits fared particularly badly during the 2011 scottish elections. They they seem intent on repeating their mistakes is not even remotely surprising.

MonikerDiCanio

Mick_Pork said:

Panelbase asked the question without a biased preamble, yougov did not.

Nor is the ordering of questions unique.

Pro-independence campaign storms back into the lead for first time since 2011

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes 44% (+7)
No 43% (-3)

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/pro-independence-campaign-storms-into.html

To answer your question, the datasets are out, and the main referendum question is listed third. I'm not sure whether that means all respondents were asked the question third, or whether the order was selected in a random order for each respondent (as was apparently the case for the recent Panelbase poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland). In any case, it's worth making the point that it's by no means standard to ask the referendum question first - typically both Westminster and Holyrood voting intentions will be asked for first, which theoretically could skew the outcome.

I agree that, since the referendum is now the most important upcoming vote, it would be best practice to always ask that question first. But this poll is scarcely unique (or even unusual) in failing to follow that best practice

Perhaps Obama , Kerry and Hollande should follow the SNP lead and commission Panelbase to carry out a poll that shows the majority of Americans and French in favour a humanitarian assault on Syria.

jayfdee

Mick_Pork said:

Sandy Mathers ‏@macteeth 1 Sep

RT @MorayMP: Must Read: UK Govt allowed sale of nerve gas chemicals to Syria 10 months after the war began. RT http://embedle.com/e/9c8Cf78j#..http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/britain-sold-nerve-gas-chemicals-2242520 …

At least it wasn't a supergun like with Iraq.
If I wanted to make Sarin,I would not start with those chemicals,to synthesise an organo fluoro compound from inorganic fluorides takes some seriously brutal chemistry. Much easier from a fluorinated organo compound.
Following their argument then any export with any kind of phosphate,such as fertilizers should also be banned.
There are numerous innocent uses for sodium and potassium fluoride,these are very common salts,actually maybe ban exports of table salt,it contains chlorine and so you can make phosgene.

Sunil_Prasannan

I is confused, TSE!

OK, so according to YG, it's "Broken, sleazy Cybernats on the slide"
But according to Panelbase, it's "Broken, sleazy Unionists on the slide"

CarlottaVance

The next Panalbase SNP poll:

Q1. Do you agree English Tories should be allowed to eat Scottish babies?

Q2. Do you agree English Tories should be allowed to impose Tory government on Scotland?

Q3. Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?

Mick_Pork

CarlottaVance said:

The next Panalbase SNP poll:

Q1. Do you agree English Tories should be allowed to eat Scottish babies?

Q2. Do you agree English Tories should be allowed to impose Tory government on Scotland?

Q3. Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?

First class twattery as always. Do you even know what the questions were and the results?
Or is there a reason you don't want to mention them?

*chortle*

Sunil_Prasannan

@tim They still do Censuses (Censi?) in India, a country with roughly 20 times our population!

CarlottaVance

Mick_Pork said:

CarlottaVance said:

Mick_Pork said:

Panelbase asked the q

So did YouGov - just with different preambles;

Panelbase:

There will be a referendum on independent Scotland on the 18th of September 2014. How do you intend to vote in response to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country?

YouGov:

If there was a referendum tomorrow on Scotland leaving the United Kingdom and becoming an Independent Country and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Scotland be an independent country?

It was YouGov's first question, Panelbase's third....

One was set in the terms that better together try to spin as well as making the obvious mistake of pretending the referendum vote was tomorrow. One was a simple factual statement with the correct date.

YouGov always ask "if there was a vote tomorrow" - but I understand your embarrassment at the SNP's transparently obvious leading in questions.

CarlottaVance

Mick_Pork said:

CarlottaVance said:

The next Panalbase SNP poll:

Q1. Do you agree English Tories should be allowed to eat Scottish babies?

Q2. Do you agree English Tories should be allowed to impose Tory government on Scotland?

Q3. Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?

First class twattery as always. Do you even know what the questions were and the results?
Or is there a reason you don't want to mention them?

*chortle*

Yes I do - I posted a link to them up thread...."chortle"....

Mick_Pork

James Chapman (Mail) ‏@jameschappers 22m

Only way senior Tories say they might trust Labour with a 2nd vote on Syria is if a motion was laid jointly in Miliband and Cameron's name

Because they obviously trust Cammie.

Tim Carr ‏@TimJCarr 1h

A majority of #Conservative MPs (162 out of 305) have now rebelled on Europe, Lords reform or Syria. Pretty much all backbenchers

Or not.

TheScreamingEagles

Update - I've added a clip from Yes, Prime Minister on how polls can be influenced by previous questions

CarlottaVance

Anthony Wells on Panelbase:

"On the Scottish referendum there are some big differences between the polling by Panelbase and the polling by other companies, but the trend data from each company is itself pretty steady. The regular polls from Ipsos MORI have bounced about a bit with NO leads between 20 and 28 points, but there is no obvious up or down trend. YouGov have only done a couple of polls, but have show consistent NO leads in the mid-twenties. There have only been two recent TNS BMRB polls (they are starting up a more regular series later this week) but they showed NO leads of 19 and 21 points. In contrast Panelbase has been tending to show leads of between 8 and 10 points. A much smaller lead, but again a very consistent one with no obviously trend towards yes or no – even by Panelbase’s standards a Yes lead looks odd."

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8037

DavidL

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

TheScreamingEagles

DavidL said:

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

DavidL

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

richardDodd

Which wing of the Manor house do your family portraits hang in tim..East wing .. West wing South wing.. North wing, the galleried dining hall .. up the grand stairway..so many grand ancestors.. called tim

TheScreamingEagles

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

DavidL

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

TheScreamingEagles

I've been given a copy of the embargoed ComRes phone poll for the Independent.

It will be published here at 9pm

Alanbrooke

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

I thought the standard Nat position is that all the media are against them and there's a huge conspiracy to enslave Scotland ?

Grandiose

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23934721

"Conservatives 'considering ways to raise minimum wage'"

Quite right - both on the positives and negatives, and I am pleased the government is looking for ways to accentuate the positive and minimise the negative. The consensus opinion is that whilst general objections to the minimum wage were plausible, they did not in practice occur. Now the responsibility for setting the NMW is given over to an independent body, it will be difficult to directly set the rate; however the range of measures mentioned should be properly considered.

Sunil_Prasannan

@TSE Yes Minister clip very instructive, thank you!

HYUFD

In Australia weekend polls had it 54-46 in Newspoll, and 53-47 in Morgan and Essential Research. Rudd was deemed to have had a good performance tonight in an ABC Q and A which Abbott declined to attend, including this line

"What is stunning is when you meet people out there in the normal world, and not this political bubble in which we live, who go through challenges in their life which are infinitely harder than I've ever had to deal with. My dear departed mum said if you think you are having a hard time, Kev, there is always someone who has 10 times as many problems."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-02/rudd-appears-on-q-and-a/4930540

DavidL

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

I thought the standard Nat position is that all the media are against them and there's a huge conspiracy to enslave Scotland ?

Yes but they are insane. Have you not noticed?

One of their less than brilliant ideas is that they have a bill before the Scottish Parliament at the moment which will require there to be an employee of the state designated for the safety of every child in Scotland. It makes new Labour look libertarian. Putting aside the small detail of the resource implications every child in Scotland will have some busy body with forms to complete and boxes to tick sticking their nose in to their care. Just incredible.

Personally I am hoping for a lot more of this insanity before the referendum. Getting a majority was maybe the worst thing that happened to the SNP. When they had to negotiate with other parties this sort of nonsense got stopped.

HYUFD

In Germany post-debate "A snap poll for Germany's RTL television declared Merkel a narrow winner of the debate, while an ARD TV poll suggested Mr Steinbrueck had been more convincing."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23918646

Mick_Pork

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

The idea that Miliband should get a second go at a yes/no question is quite amusing. But if there is any truth in the stories that 6 or 7 of his shadow cabinet would resign if he committed himself to military action it seems a strange step to take.

As this season goes on I fear that I am concluding that Ed Miliband= David Moyes. That is really not a complement, in case anybody not interested in football is reading.

As a Man U supporter I am beginning to feel like a tory in 97. Not only has my team lost, there is no chance of them winning again until they get some new management.

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

I thought the standard Nat PB tory position is that all the media are against them and there's a huge conspiracy to enslave Scotland against the tories. ?

Fixed that for you.

LOL

HYUFD

Also, O/T but Charlie Hunnam to play Christian Grey and Dakota Johnson Anastasia Steele in Fifty Shades of Grey
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23933444

DavidL

@Alanbrooke

See?

Mick_Pork

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

I thought the standard Nat position is that all the media are against them and there's a huge conspiracy to enslave Scotland ?

Yes but they are insane. Have you not noticed?

I noticed Cameron being humiliated by his sheer incompetence on the Syria vote.
So did the public strangely enough.

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 6h

Almost three-quarters of people in UK believe MPs were right to reject action in Syria, poll for BBC suggests http://bbc.in/18x7Sdl

It's a shame the chickenhawks and swivel-eyed loons didn't notice how utterly out of touch they were, as usual.

Alanbrooke

DavidL said:

@Alanbrooke

See?

LOL Mick does get a little carried away at times, it's part of his charm.

SimonStClare

“I’ve added a clip from Yes, Prime Minister on how polls can be influenced by previous questions”

One of the funniest moments (of many I might add) – The fact YM is still being quoted 30 years* later is testament to the brilliance of the scripts by Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn.

*(YM 1980 -84 & YPM 1986 – 88)

AveryLP

richardDodd said:

Which wing of the Manor house do your family portraits hang in tim..East wing .. West wing South wing.. North wing, the galleried dining hall .. up the grand stairway..so many grand ancestors.. called tim

Have you ever been to Sourhead, Doddy?

another_richard

Josias

Thank you for outlining your views re Syria this morning.

You raise some good points but I'm afraid you're not being practical.

We don't have the resources or the commitment to make your ideas work as can be shown by looking at the results of our interfering elsewhere in the Islamic world. I would say that trying to sort our failures elsewhere would be a better idea than creating a new failed intervention in Syria

Any attempt at your ideas would have only one guaranteed result - more hatred for us from Muslims.

I also think you're getting into dangerous territory with this suggestion:

"That could be extended to the Assad regime, even if the weapons were used by rebels. If it can be proved that rebel use of weapons was from governmental stocks, then the Assad government should be held responsible for not keeping them safe.It could also be extended to other countries who have sent in fighters, for instance Lebanon, if it is discovered that their troops have used such weapons."

As most Arab countries will now have citizens fighting on one side or another in Syria then that sounds like a suggestion to declare war on the entire Arab world.

Aside from making us even more unpopular when were we appointed judge, jury and executioner?

Mick_Pork

Political Planet ‏@politicalplanet 6h

'Never say never' on second Commons Syria vote, says Foreign Office minister: David Cameron could hold a secon... http://bit.ly/15PhAdz

Michael Long ‏@mike1981notts 2h

Lots of confusion from @David_Cameron, Clegg, Foreign Office on whether there could be a second vote on #Syria. Shambles...

AveryLP

Q1. Do you like nutritious, juicy, shiny, delicious acorns?

Q2. Do you hate plain, dull, matte, taseteless groundnuts?

Q3. Would you prefer to live in a sty where farmer Eck only served you acorns?

HYUFD

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

DavidL

Mick_Pork said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

I thought the standard Nat position is that all the media are against them and there's a huge conspiracy to enslave Scotland ?

Yes but they are insane. Have you not noticed?

I noticed Cameron being humiliated by his sheer incompetence on the Syria vote.
So did the public strangely enough.

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 6h

Almost three-quarters of people in UK believe MPs were right to reject action in Syria, poll for BBC suggests http://bbc.in/18x7Sdl

It's a shame the chickenhawks and swivel-eyed loons didn't notice how utterly out of touch they were, as usual.



There is no particular reason why you should pay attention to my comments but the fact is that I have been very strongly opposed to armed intervention in Syria from the very first time it was raised.

Unlike the SNP the tories are supported by people who are capable of thinking for themselves. In fact the last 2 words of that sentence are fairly superfluous.

richardDodd

ALP Tried to get tickets but they were overbooked .. seems there is some amazing lifelike hermit there who sits in a cellar all day .. lit only by a green light .. never eats or sleeps Queues. round the estate to see this

Sunil_Prasannan

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Has Lieberman considered if it would be in Israel's best interest to have an Islamist Syria on its northeastern Golan frontier?

dr_spyn

National Minimum Wage - just scrap it. More pointless layers of bureaucracy to regulate and distort markets.

Mick_Pork

Q1. Will Lansley ever be PM?

Q2. Will the comedy spinners ever realise their Blairing over Syria is massively counterproductive?

Q3. How did Cammie manage to f**k up an entire summer of terrible headlines and stories for little Ed by turning it all into Cammie's party management incompetence in a mere week or so?

AveryLP

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Are you following McCain on Sky News?

Mick_Pork

DavidL said:

Unlike the SNP the tories are supported by people who are capable of thinking for themselves. In fact the last 2 words of that sentence are fairly superfluous.

That would certainly explain why the kippers did so well in May and are still polling around the level of the lib dems.

Brown and Blair's little helpers also tried to spin the split in their party and rampant factionalism as 'thinking for themselves'. It was just as believable then as it is now that tories are forced to do it.

DavidL

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Has Lieberman considered if it would be in Israel's best interest to have an Islamist Syria on its northeastern Golan frontier?

It is absolutely in Israel's interests that the most powerful and belligerent of the Arab states is torn apart by a brutal civil war that turns a significant part of the population into refugees, destroys its military assets and effectively wipes out its regular army and airforce. Missiles from the west destroying airfields, planes and other military resources would just be the icing on the cake. Just saying.

TOPPING

Mick_Pork said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

What really should disturb you was that Moyes post match said Manchester United played well yesterday.

It did TSE, it did. Honourable defeats and being a bit unlucky was probably fine at Everton. He has much to learn but being manger of Man U is not subject to remediation. Bit like Loto in that respect.

Look on the bright side, he only signed a six year contract as your manager.

It's only money. He will go.

The Yes PM clip is superb and entirely on point. The fact that this paid for, partisan nonsense today has got so much coverage in the Scottish press without explaining that it is a push poll makes me think that too many of the Scottish media are either ignorant about polling or simply want a story no matter what.

I thought the standard Nat position is that all the media are against them and there's a huge conspiracy to enslave Scotland ?

Yes but they are insane. Have you not noticed?

I noticed Cameron being humiliated by his sheer incompetence on the Syria vote.
So did the public strangely enough.

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 6h

Almost three-quarters of people in UK believe MPs were right to reject action in Syria, poll for BBC suggests http://bbc.in/18x7Sdl

It's a shame the chickenhawks and swivel-eyed loons didn't notice how utterly out of touch they were, as usual.



Mick. We will not have personal abuse on this site.

tim has made it clear that he supports action in Syria and I, for one, will not have him insulted in such a way. Please desist.

In other news and on topic, are you lot off, finally?

dr_spyn

NMW - distorts the labour market just like all the working family tax credits - get rid of both of them.

Mick_Pork

Same old Neocons.

libertarian Comic ‏@funlibertarian 55m

"@ThePlumLineGS:McCain says Congress overruling Prez on security matter sets dangerous precedent" the precedent is called the constitution

AveryLP

@HYUFD

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Are you following McCain on Sky News?

And Lindsey Graham too.

The message is "degrade the Assad Regime and upgrade opposition forces".

All part of the "game" discussed last night!

DavidL

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?


That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

Mick_Pork

tim said:

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

They are as vibrant and surging as ever.

Bella Caledonia ‏@bellacaledonia

This is the party that rules Scotland meeting: pic.twitter.com/rdZKLEDlxh

Alanbrooke

looks like Ed shafted Francois as well as Obama.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/02/syria-crisis-french-intelligence-assad

HYUFD

AveryLP McCain and Graham are the last keepers of the flame of neoconservatism in the GOP, if the House votes no, it will be Rand Paul who will now be in pole position for 2016!

HYUFD

Sunil - Indeed, not really thinking through the practical implications

AveryLP

HYUFD said:

AveryLP McCain and Graham are the last keepers of the flame of neoconservatism in the GOP, if the House votes no, it will be Rand Paul who will now be in pole position for 2016!

Of course.

But it is the noise that counts.

Alanbrooke

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.



looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.

NickPalmer

HYUFD said:

In Germany post-debate "A snap poll for Germany's RTL television declared Merkel a narrow winner of the debate, while an ARD TV poll suggested Mr Steinbrueck had been more convincing."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23918646

Yes, I was discussing that here with Richard N yesterday. Both polls actually show Steinbrueck doing massively better than expected, so some part of the obvious leader bonus that Merkel has had will have been eroded. What is unknown is how important the leader bonus is for voting intentions. We'll know more on that when we get VI polls in a day or two. The new polling institute INSA appeas to show nothing much, but possibly just enough to deny Merkel and the FDP a majority:

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

One can daringly extrapolate to Britain - either that Cameron woulds be unwise to debate Miliband because Ed would probably do better than current low expectations, or that he might as well as it doesn't seem to matter much.

DavidL

Alanbrooke said:

looks like Ed shafted Francois as well as Obama.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/02/syria-crisis-french-intelligence-assad

It seems to me that Ed has not quite caught up with Gove's education reforms. He thinks you still get 2 goes at answering a yes/no question.

The current government believes in a more rigorous approach.

Mick_Pork

Alanbrooke said:

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.

The postal questionnaire was carried out between November 2007 and March 2008.

Unlike some parties the membership has gone up quite considerably since then.

AveryLP

Alanbrooke said:

looks like Ed shafted Francois as well as Obama.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/02/syria-crisis-french-intelligence-assad

Mr. Brooke.

Ed wants a back translation of the report verified against the original before making a decision.

john_zims

@Tim

'One day the penny will drop that Tory govts spend more on benefits because they are determined to subsidise low pay and high rents'


One day the penny will drop that 10 years of New Labour's mass immigration caused low pay & high rents.


Now for Labour's lies about immigration
Telegraph.co.uk ‎- 4 hours ago
Ed Miliband has tried to atone for Iraq, but his party's open-door policy is impossible to excuse.

Alanbrooke

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.

The postal questionnaire was carried out between November 2007 and March 2008.

Unlike some parties the membership has gone up quite considerably since then.

I'm sure the SNP is packed with young uns like Jack and Victor down the Craiglang community centre.

Eck - Still Game.

DavidL

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

HYUFD

NP It could lead to a new Grand Coalition between CDU and SPD, but Merkel will stay Chancellor. Cameron is unlikely to have Merkel's poll lead in 2015 so has less to lose

HYUFD

AveryLP Indeed, but their noise is in the Senate, it is in the House where it is needed

Alanbrooke

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

Facebook politics. On the other hand since oldies are more inclined to vote I can't see why youth is so attractive.

Mick_Pork

Alanbrooke said:

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.

The postal questionnaire was carried out between November 2007 and March 2008.

Unlike some parties the membership has gone up quite considerably since then.

I'm sure the SNP is packed with young uns like Jack and Victor down the Craiglang community centre.

Over 25,000 back in March. Care to guess what the scottish tories or even SLAB is?

Sunil_Prasannan

DavidL said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Has Lieberman considered if it would be in Israel's best interest to have an Islamist Syria on its northeastern Golan frontier?

It is absolutely in Israel's interests that the most powerful and belligerent of the Arab states is torn apart by a brutal civil war that turns a significant part of the population into refugees, destroys its military assets and effectively wipes out its regular army and airforce. Missiles from the west destroying airfields, planes and other military resources would just be the icing on the cake. Just saying.

As per HYUFD above, no it wouldn't.

saddened

I've asked this before and got no answer. Has any polling been carried out showing what the result would be if the English had a vote? I suspect that if yes truly want to win, they could do worse than add the English to the franchise.

Alanbrooke

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.

The postal questionnaire was carried out between November 2007 and March 2008.

Unlike some parties the membership has gone up quite considerably since then.

I'm sure the SNP is packed with young uns like Jack and Victor down the Craiglang community centre.

Over 25,000 back in March. Care to guess what the scottish tories or even SLAB is?

Oh dear I think you're going to quote WoS at me.

What age are you Mick ?

AveryLP

HYUFD said:

AveryLP Indeed, but their noise is in the Senate, it is in the House where it is needed

I think you are too focussed on Capitol Hill.

The noise, pre-G20, needs to be on the national and global news channels.

Richard_Tyndall

OT. We are seeing something of an issue developing at the moment between the two branches responsible for air safety in the UK over the safety of Super Puma Helicopters for North Sea Operations.

After the crash 10 days ago, the Helicopter Safety Steering Group advised that all 4 models of Super Pumas should be grounded until the Air Accident Investigation Branch had ascertained the cause of the accident.

This Friday the Civil Aviation Authority and the HSSG announced that the accident had not been caused by an "airworthiness or technical problem" and therefore the Super Pumas were safe to fly again. A lot of oil workers are unhappy about this as no official reason has been given for the accident but generally it has been accepted that if the CAA says it is safe then presumably they know why the thing crashed and will tell us in due course.

However yesterday the Air Accident Investigation Branch which is actually carrying out the investigation into the crash said that they have not been able to say that the accident was not due to an airworthiness or technical problem, that they do not yet know the cause and that they do not know why the CAA and HSSG has announced the choppers are safe.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/crash-investigator-we-cant-say-the-super-puma-is-safe.22030605

Needless to say there are now a lot of rather unhappy oil workers wondering if these things are fit for purpose.

CarlottaVance

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

"HE is 63 years’ old, donates £84 a year to his party, and whenever he hears someone criticise his country, takes it as a personal insult – say hello to the Scottish National Party’s everyman."

Does he eat acorns too?

Alanbrooke

CarlottaVance said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

"HE is 63 years’ old, donates £84 a year to his party, and whenever he hears someone criticise his country, takes it as a personal insult – say hello to the Scottish National Party’s everyman."

Does he eat acorns too?

If the survey took place in 2008 he'd be 68 now, at this rate they'll be overtaking Jack W.

MrJones

AveryLP said:

@HYUFD

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Are you following McCain on Sky News?

And Lindsey Graham too.

The message is "degrade the Assad Regime and upgrade opposition forces".

All part of the "game" discussed last night!

It's all about regime change and nothing to do with WMDs. They don't want to say so explicitly because it casts a light on whether or not they care whether their "evidence" is bogus or not.

Mick_Pork

Alanbrooke said:

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.

The postal questionnaire was carried out between November 2007 and March 2008.

Unlike some parties the membership has gone up quite considerably since then.

I'm sure the SNP is packed with young uns like Jack and Victor down the Craiglang community centre.

Over 25,000 back in March. Care to guess what the scottish tories or even SLAB is?

Oh dear I think you're going to quote WoS at me.

Nope. It was actually a trick question since neither SLAB or SCON will release up to date party numbers and we all know why.

Though back in 2011 the scottish tories were about 8500 which is quite some way down from about 16,500 in 2006. I fear the trend for them does not bode well. Until the mythical scottish tory surge of course.

Mick_Pork

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

"HE is 63 years’ old, donates £84 a year to his party, and whenever he hears someone criticise his country, takes it as a personal insult – say hello to the Scottish National Party’s everyman."

Does he eat acorns too?

If the survey took place in 2008 he'd be 68 now, at this rate they'll be overtaking Jack W.

I somehow doubt the blue rinse old biddies from SCON are younger than me. LOL

Keep trying.

CarlottaVance

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

"HE is 63 years’ old, donates £84 a year to his party, and whenever he hears someone criticise his country, takes it as a personal insult – say hello to the Scottish National Party’s everyman."

Does he eat acorns too?

If the survey took place in 2008 he'd be 68 now, at this rate they'll be overtaking Jack W.

The story was from last year - (Pork specialises in antiquarian news stories) - so only 65.

But I guess age is catching up with him as he's completely forgotten about the leading Panelbase polling question sequence....

MikeK

David Jacobs of Juke Box Jury fame has died at the age of 87.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23938128

Alanbrooke

Mick_Pork said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Tim said

I though most Scottish Tories weren't capable of chopping up their own food?

That is a very ageist remark Tim and not worthy of you. Some of us are quite spritely.

looking at the age profile of the average Nat member they're not exactly spring chickens.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762

clash of the zimmerframes it seems.<</i>/blockquote>

The last generation when there was a point to joining a political party. What's next?

"HE is 63 years’ old, donates £84 a year to his party, and whenever he hears someone criticise his country, takes it as a personal insult – say hello to the Scottish National Party’s everyman."

Does he eat acorns too?

If the survey took place in 2008 he'd be 68 now, at this rate they'll be overtaking Jack W.

I somehow doubt the blue rinse old biddies from SCON are younger than me. LOL

Keep trying.

No evidence to back that statement up Mick. Most of the PB nats have tended to be older gents except for James who is about seven and a half looking at his photo.

Mick_Pork

Panelbase - Who were also the first opinion pollsters to detect an SNP lead at the last Scottish election.


Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes 44% (+7)
No 43% (-3)

AveryLP

MrJones said:

AveryLP said:

@HYUFD

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

Lieberman on Syria “I’m sure that our enemies are cheering now as a result of this decision because they realize it’s not clear the president will get authority, and our allies are worried,” he concluded. “That’s why, again, this resolution or something like it has to pass Congress.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/01/lieberman-our-enemies-are-cheering-after-obama-consulted-congress-on-syria/

Are you following McCain on Sky News?

And Lindsey Graham too.

The message is "degrade the Assad Regime and upgrade opposition forces".

All part of the "game" discussed last night!

It's all about regime change and nothing to do with WMDs. They don't want to say so explicitly because it casts a light on whether or not they care whether their "evidence" is bogus or not.

I am sure there are many voices in Washington that want regime change, MrJones.

But that doesn't mean this is what the current discussions are about.

The current aim of Washington is to secure the cessation of CW use by Assad (and possibly the secure destruction of all stocks in Syria) by means of an agreed and united action of the international community through the UNSC.

This is not currently possible due to the opposition of Russia and China to resolutions requiring such action being passed by the UNSC.

The only chance of securing the support of Russia and China is to make the consequences of not co-operating within the UNSC worse than those of co-operating.

A threat to fly over Syria and wag a finger at Assad is not going to worry anyone involved.

The threat of open-ended US military intervention targetted at degrading Assad's military capabilities and upgrading opposition capabilities all of which being likely to alter the balance of the Civil War against Assad is a threat which might end the diplomatic deadlock.

The more it is talked up and the more it seems politically feasible, the greater the short term chances of securing the support of Russia and China.