Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Confirms you’re a traitor to the UK.
When the trials come you will be exiled to Twatt or Middlesbrough.
There's some good birding in Twatt and Middlesborough. I have voluntarily been to both...
With all the smog in Middlesbrough, I’m surprised you saw any birds.
Did we not get rid of all that smelly industry stuff in the Blair years?
There's only one gas works left in the Boro, TSE is displaying his lack of Yorkshire credentials
If Russian bots can speak to British people more effectively than Remain campaigners, that's pretty sad. This is being over-inflated to avoid looking at Remain campaign failures.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
I'd say it's almost certain that the Russians are going to be rooting for Jez. And Labour is miles ahead of the Tories on social media - which really is extremely influential in the round these days, as we know.
This Russian stuff is ridiculous and hugely insulting. Don't like a result? Blame the Russians. So far Russia is responsible for the election of Trump and and now Brexit. Impressive stuff. Nothing to do with complex socio-economic factors, years of political debate and massive constitutional issues. No, it was tweets that won it. No doubt Russia also knocked Italy out of the World Cup.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Not one of Thatcher's finest quotes, even she rode on her general election battle buses well over the age of 26
This Russian stuff is ridiculous and hugely insulting. Don't like a result? Blame the Russians. So far Russia is responsible for the election of Trump and and now Brexit. Impressive stuff. Nothing to do with complex socio-economic factors, years of political debate and massive constitutional issues. No, it was tweets that won it. No doubt Russia also knocked Italy out of the World Cup.
Nothing to do with the crap Hillary and Remain campaigns of course
This also explains why Alex Salmond has a show on Russia Today.
If you support Scottish Nationalism then you’re a tool (of Russia)
So does George Galloway.To be fair The Keizer Report and Crosstalk are a change to listening to the BBC and Sky all the time as they discuss differing world events that the UK media seem not interested in.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Of course, but the reaction of many on here has been to shrug and ask "who cares?". Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
On topic - we have absolutely no idea how these bots affected the outcome, but I'd be surprised if they made a material difference. The mood music in the UK had been anti-EU for years, from the top of the government downwards. Russian bots did not help UKIP get all those votes at Euro elections.
It's hard to believe that Twitter was the only way in which the Russians sought to influence the elections - financing looks a very ripe area for investigation - but, again, the Leave win was not a huge surprise when you see it in the context of all that had happened over the previous decade and even beyond.
More generally, though, it does seem as if the Russians have a very sophisticated and coordinated destabilisation campaign going on. It's not just the referendum and the US election, of course. We know it happened in the French presidential election and strong evidence is now emerging of heavy Russian interest in events in Catalonia.
Successful beyond their wildest dream. Brexit has disabled British politics in one foul swoop.
Yes but how much was that due to their efforts or was that the way it was going anyway?
I think this comes under the heading of supporting evidence if at som point a clear majority of people want a rethink. Few people will admit to being fooled by tweets, but if they want a reason why they've changed their minds this offers one, together with lies like the £350 million for the NHS and, I suspect, the expectation of strict curbs on immigration.
Incidentally, I was at a farming conference yesterday and one of the farming representatives said ruefully that during the referendum campaign several of the leading Leave campaigners promised cheaper food. He agreed that this was not in reality likely to happen, rather the reverse.
There will be curbs on lower skilled immigration, that is why we are not keeping free movement and leaving the single market
This Russian stuff is ridiculous and hugely insulting. Don't like a result? Blame the Russians. So far Russia is responsible for the election of Trump and and now Brexit. Impressive stuff. Nothing to do with complex socio-economic factors, years of political debate and massive constitutional issues. No, it was tweets that won it. No doubt Russia also knocked Italy out of the World Cup.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Of course, but the reaction of many on here has been to shrug and ask "who cares?". Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Of course, but the reaction of many on here has been to shrug and ask "who cares?". Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Not one of Thatcher's finest quotes, even she rode on her general election battle buses well over the age of 26
A campaign bus is clearly not the same thing as a public bus, whichbis surely what is meant. It's still a stupid Quote though
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Of course, but the reaction of many on here has been to shrug and ask "who cares?". Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
Did you read any of Carlotta's or DavidL's posts? One can accept there may be an issue without jumping to absurd conclusions.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Not one of Thatcher's finest quotes, even she rode on her general election battle buses well over the age of 26
This also explains Corbyn sabotaging the Remain campaign.
By getting 65% of Labour voters to support Remain after speaking at ten pro-EU rallies, writing pro-Remain articles for the press, and making numerous media appearances. Nefarious.
Or: the Remain campaign was utter shite, and continues to misunderstand the country, using this Russia obsession as an excuse not to examine itself.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Not one of Thatcher's finest quotes, even she rode on her general election battle buses well over the age of 26
A campaign bus is clearly not the same thing as a public bus, whichbis surely what is meant. It's still a stupid Quote though
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Of course, but the reaction of many on here has been to shrug and ask "who cares?". Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
So what do you suggest we do? Ban Twatter?
Monitor social media accounts associated with the Kremlin more closely. It seems more and more possible
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
We're talking about public busses.
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
On topic - we have absolutely no idea how these bots affected the outcome, but I'd be surprised if they made a material difference. The mood music in the UK had been anti-EU for years, from the top of the government downwards. Russian bots did not help UKIP get all those votes at Euro elections.
It's hard to believe that Twitter was the only way in which the Russians sought to influence the elections - financing looks a very ripe area for investigation - but, again, the Leave win was not a huge surprise when you see it in the context of all that had happened over the previous decade and even beyond.
More generally, though, it does seem as if the Russians have a very sophisticated and coordinated destabilisation campaign going on. It's not just the referendum and the US election, of course. We know it happened in the French presidential election and strong evidence is now emerging of heavy Russian interest in events in Catalonia.
Successful beyond their wildest dream. Brexit has disabled British politics in one foul swoop.
Yes but how much was that due to their efforts or was that the way it was going anyway?
We need to find out. A Royal Commission into the validity of the 2016 vote. One question, "was the 2016 EU referendum a free and fair vote?". If no, we rerun the vote with safeguards.
Seems reasonable on something with such far reaching consequences.
Nothing to do with the crap Hillary and Remain campaigns of course
Psst....
Have you heard?
*leans in* Things. Can. Have. Multiple. Causes.
(And I think the failures of both those campaigns might have been mentioned on here already once or twice)
Inept, complacent, establishment campaigns, concerns over immigration and globalisation and populist, well targeted Leave and Trump campaigns making good use of social media all contributed to the Hillary and Remain defeat. Blaming Russian bots is just scraping the barrel
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
Just to be clear, I do not approve of Russia's behaviour. But I don't think it's fair to blame Leave (or Trump, until proved otherwise, for that matter), for something that was beyond their control.
Of course, but the reaction of many on here has been to shrug and ask "who cares?". Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
Did you read any of Carlotta's or DavidL's posts? One can accept there may be an issue without jumping to absurd conclusions.
"Many" =/=All
Since the start of the referendum campaign, we have had an MP killed in the street, a government invoking Henry VIII powers and judges being called traitors on the front page of a national newspaper. I think we can start talking about the importance of democratic norms now.
1) Remain. The 'Establishment' which is the larger part of the class that has been running the country and the international organisations, politics, the media etc, haven't given up on reversing the result. This is just part of the narrative. There may have been some interference, but the real interest here is to make that the story to de-legitimise the result of the Referendum.
2) The Internet and the battle to regulate it, and have the public accept that as the new normal. Trump and Brexit have scared the old media, governments and other supranational and international bodies. The dissemination of information (whether correct or false) is no longer under their control. For generations since the introduction of the mass media, there has been a large degree of control over the dissemination of information by governments. They have been able to apply pressure in the right places when necessary, and the mainstream media is inhabited largely by the same kinds of people who enter politics. Now the flow of information is in the hands of people who are 'not us'.
FWIW I would guess that Obama's incompetent meddling swung far more votes to Leave than anything from the Kremlin.
On what basis do you make that assumption?
Talking to Referendum voters, maybe? A crazy notion, I grant you - as Remainers wouldn't be seen dead on the doorstep, trying to sell the merits of the EU...
FWIW I would guess that Obama's incompetent meddling swung far more votes to Leave than anything from the Kremlin.
On what basis do you make that assumption?
Maybe the fact that Obama's incompetent meddling led headline news across the entire country and would have been heard about by the vast majority of voters.
Whereas Russian Twitter bots would have been seen by a fraction of Twitter users who happened to come across those Tweets. Approximately three-quarters of the UK don't even have a Twitter account in the first place, let alone use it obsessively daily. Of those who do have a Twitter account the 45k Tweets sent are a drop in the ocean compared to the approximately 500 million Tweets sent globally (I can't find UK figures atm) per day.
The idea that most voters would have even seen these Tweets let alone changed their vote based on them is patently absurd. Twitter is not the country.
This Russian stuff is ridiculous and hugely insulting. Don't like a result? Blame the Russians. So far Russia is responsible for the election of Trump and and now Brexit. Impressive stuff. Nothing to do with complex socio-economic factors, years of political debate and massive constitutional issues. No, it was tweets that won it. No doubt Russia also knocked Italy out of the World Cup.
Nothing to do with the crap Hillary and Remain campaigns of course
It seems astonishing that all Brexiters response appears to be to dismiss it. Not something like, well they may have tried but I am not sure if it was the tipping point.
Brexit is becoming a religion. Hear no evil, see no evil. speak no evil...
Nothing to do with the crap Hillary and Remain campaigns of course
Psst....
Have you heard?
*leans in* Things. Can. Have. Multiple. Causes.
(And I think the failures of both those campaigns might have been mentioned on here already once or twice)
Inept, complacent, establishment campaigns, concerns over immigration and globalisation and populist, well targeted Leave and Trump campaigns making good use of social media all contributed to the Hillary and Remain defeat. Blaming Russian bots is just scraping the barrel
Yep, I agree.
But that does not make the Russians seeking to undermine votes in the UK and elsewhere acceptable or something to be laughed off.
The good news is that in Europe this seems to be understood. The bad news is that the US has now become so polarised that anything that helps "our side" is regarded as acceptable. That gives Putin a serious ability to shape things - see Trump and NATO, for example.
FWIW I would guess that Obama's incompetent meddling swung far more votes to Leave than anything from the Kremlin.
On what basis do you make that assumption?
Maybe the fact that Obama's incompetent meddling led headline news across the entire country and would have been heard about by the vast majority of voters.
Whereas Russian Twitter bots would have been seen by a fraction of Twitter users who happened to come across those Tweets. Approximately three-quarters of the UK don't even have a Twitter account in the first place, let alone use it obsessively daily. Of those who do have a Twitter account the 45k Tweets sent are a drop in the ocean compared to the approximately 500 million Tweets sent globally (I can't find UK figures atm) per day.
The idea that most voters would have even seen these Tweets let alone changed their vote based on them is patently absurd. Twitter is not the country.
Plus the ones who followed those accounts will be Leavers in the first place, twitter being a way to create your own echo chamber. Of all the ways states of all kinds interfere with each other this is the pettiest thing to get het up about.
1) Remain. The 'Establishment' which is the larger part of the class that has been running the country and the international organisations, politics, the media etc, haven't given up on reversing the result. This is just part of the narrative. There may have been some interference, but the real interest here is to make that the story to de-legitimise the result of the Referendum.
2) The Internet and the battle to regulate it, and have the public accept that as the new normal. Trump and Brexit have scared the old media, governments and other supranational and international bodies. The dissemination of information (whether correct or false) is no longer under their control. For generations since the introduction of the mass media, there has been a large degree of control over the dissemination of information by governments. They have been able to apply pressure in the right places when necessary, and the mainstream media is inhabited largely by the same kinds of people who enter politics. Now the flow of information is in the hands of people who are 'not us'.
Yeah. 75% of Labour voters are "Establishment" and 75% of Tory voters are insurgents. Where do you get this guff ?
FWIW I would guess that Obama's incompetent meddling swung far more votes to Leave than anything from the Kremlin.
On what basis do you make that assumption?
Maybe the fact that Obama's incompetent meddling led headline news across the entire country and would have been heard about by the vast majority of voters.
Whereas Russian Twitter bots would have been seen by a fraction of Twitter users who happened to come across those Tweets. Approximately three-quarters of the UK don't even have a Twitter account in the first place, let alone use it obsessively daily. Of those who do have a Twitter account the 45k Tweets sent are a drop in the ocean compared to the approximately 500 million Tweets sent globally (I can't find UK figures atm) per day.
The idea that most voters would have even seen these Tweets let alone changed their vote based on them is patently absurd. Twitter is not the country.
Twitter is a part of social media and should not be seen in isolation. Tweets that start memes which are then shared via Facebook have the potential to be hugely powerful. You only need to look at how Labour used social media last June to understand its power.
A RUSSIAN professional troll is finding it hard to be more bigoted than British online commenters who do it for free, he has revealed.
Despite being paid to stir up trouble on news websites, Alexander Petrov’s posts are never more furious and unhinged than genuine opinions on topics like immigration and the EU.
St Petersburg-based Petrov said: “My job is to post lies and propaganda to weaken Europe, but sometimes I wonder why I bother with all these twats spouting rubbish themselves.
“Yesterday I lied that the EU wanted uncontrolled immigration, but then ‘Wigan Lass’ posted ‘Nuke the Brussels NAZIS + every foreign shitehole then invent a disease that only kills the French!!!’ She got 280 ‘recommends’ and I only got 11.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
We're talking about public busses.
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
If we are talking about public busses, then doesn’t your original quip lose its point?
A RUSSIAN professional troll is finding it hard to be more bigoted than British online commenters who do it for free, he has revealed.
Despite being paid to stir up trouble on news websites, Alexander Petrov’s posts are never more furious and unhinged than genuine opinions on topics like immigration and the EU.
St Petersburg-based Petrov said: “My job is to post lies and propaganda to weaken Europe, but sometimes I wonder why I bother with all these twats spouting rubbish themselves.
“Yesterday I lied that the EU wanted uncontrolled immigration, but then ‘Wigan Lass’ posted ‘Nuke the Brussels NAZIS + every foreign shitehole then invent a disease that only kills the French!!!’ She got 280 ‘recommends’ and I only got 11.
Nothing to do with the crap Hillary and Remain campaigns of course
Psst....
Have you heard?
*leans in* Things. Can. Have. Multiple. Causes.
(And I think the failures of both those campaigns might have been mentioned on here already once or twice)
Inept, complacent, establishment campaigns, concerns over immigration and globalisation and populist, well targeted Leave and Trump campaigns making good use of social media all contributed to the Hillary and Remain defeat. Blaming Russian bots is just scraping the barrel
Yep, I agree.
But that does not make the Russians seeking to undermine votes in the UK and elsewhere acceptable or something to be laughed off.
The good news is that in Europe this seems to be understood. The bad news is that the US has now become so polarised that anything that helps "our side" is regarded as acceptable. That gives Putin a serious ability to shape things - see Trump and NATO, for example.
Russia will have succeeded even if Brexit and Trump had lost. Because they would have lost narrowly. The fact these two won was simply a bonus.
Their main purpose is to sow discord and undermine democracy. In that they have been very successful. Putin appears to be far more skilful and manipulative than Lenin, Stalin.
FWIW I would guess that Obama's incompetent meddling swung far more votes to Leave than anything from the Kremlin.
On what basis do you make that assumption?
Maybe the fact that Obama's incompetent meddling led headline news across the entire country and would have been heard about by the vast majority of voters.
Whereas Russian Twitter bots would have been seen by a fraction of Twitter users who happened to come across those Tweets. Approximately three-quarters of the UK don't even have a Twitter account in the first place, let alone use it obsessively daily. Of those who do have a Twitter account the 45k Tweets sent are a drop in the ocean compared to the approximately 500 million Tweets sent globally (I can't find UK figures atm) per day.
The idea that most voters would have even seen these Tweets let alone changed their vote based on them is patently absurd. Twitter is not the country.
Twitter is a part of social media and should not be seen in isolation. Tweets that start memes which are then shared via Facebook have the potential to be hugely powerful. You only need to look at how Labour used social media last June to understand its power.
Social media is generally only reinforcement of views already held. Those who are unconvinced of an argument tend not to be so easily swayed by memes. The question we should be asking is why some people are so susceptible to such reinforcement, and why they are not capable of real critical enquiry
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
We're talking about public busses.
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
If we are talking about public busses, then doesn’t your original quip lose its point?
No.
Leavers are used to busses, Remainers aren't because we're more successful.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
We're talking about public busses.
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
If we are talking about public busses, then doesn’t your original quip lose its point?
No.
Leavers are used to busses, Remainers aren't because we're more successful.
Remainers are much more used to busses because they tend to be Urban. Out here, we don't have such luxuries ;-)
Mr. Jonathan, without wishing to go into the other aspects, how would you regulate it?
The world can't switch off Russia's internet.
Dunno. Rapid response unit. Quickly calling out fake news and Putin's puppets.
And there's the real prize in play here - public acceptance that Government will regulate the flow of information. Who gets to decide whether a story is 'Fake' or not? How will that be backstopped?
Mr. Jonathan, without wishing to go into the other aspects, how would you regulate it?
The world can't switch off Russia's internet.
Dunno. Rapid response unit. Quickly calling out fake news and Putin's puppets.
And there's the real prize in play here - public acceptance that Government will regulate the flow of information. Who gets to decide whether a story is 'Fake' or not? How will that be backstopped?
Mr. Jonathan, without wishing to go into the other aspects, how would you regulate it?
The world can't switch off Russia's internet.
Dunno. Rapid response unit. Quickly calling out fake news and Putin's puppets.
And there's the real prize in play here - public acceptance that Government will regulate the flow of information. Who gets to decide whether a story is 'Fake' or not? How will that be backstopped?
Who said anything about govt.
You have someone else in mind? Someone untouchable by government? But that would be anti democratic as then we would have no control over them at all. It's a no win situation. Either you have freedom of speech or you surrender it.
OK, admit it: how many of you getting all het up about Russian interference in UK politics still thought this fake news was nevertheless a wizzo wheeze?
"almost 45,000 messages" sounds like a Sorry I haven't a Clue gag - we have received almost two letters this week from a Mrs Trellis of North Wales. Paying any attention to this stuff is dancing to Putin's tune. Let's just put TWEETCRIME on the same list as BUSCRIME and TURKCRIME, and move on.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
We're talking about public busses.
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
If we are talking about public busses, then doesn’t your original quip lose its point?
No.
Leavers are used to busses, Remainers aren't because we're more successful.
Might be interesting if the Telegraph journalists (sic) took a trip to Sark and did an investigation into the Berkeley Brothers who currently live in their own little tax exile Brecqhou which is within throwing a cricket ball distance. They would find no shortage of Sarkese willing to speak to them.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
As a Leaver I dont think we can skate over this so easily
We've already established that Remainers are people so intellectually void that they were outwitted by a bus. Indeed we know this becasue they regularly come on on PB and boast of the fact.
Now it seems that not only have they been duped by a bus but that millions of them cant tweet and chew gum at the same tiime. They get easily confused by trolls who dont speak english as their first language sat 2000 miles away. Millions of them thought Leave meant staying in because they read it on the internet and now it turns out it doesnt.
I cant see any easy way out of this except to ban twitter and ask everyone saying they want to remain to go back to school to learn english.
They'll have to walk as their track history with buses isnt good.
Remainers are true Thatcherites, Leavers are communist failures.
A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.
Where does that leave party leaders at election time? And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
We're talking about public busses.
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
If we are talking about public busses, then doesn’t your original quip lose its point?
No.
Leavers are used to busses, Remainers aren't because we're more successful.
To a remainer a bus is a mode of transport. To a leaver, it's a blank canvas.
1) Remain. The 'Establishment' which is the larger part of the class that has been running the country and the international organisations, politics, the media etc, haven't given up on reversing the result. This is just part of the narrative. There may have been some interference, but the real interest here is to make that the story to de-legitimise the result of the Referendum.
2) The Internet and the battle to regulate it, and have the public accept that as the new normal. Trump and Brexit have scared the old media, governments and other supranational and international bodies. The dissemination of information (whether correct or false) is no longer under their control. For generations since the introduction of the mass media, there has been a large degree of control over the dissemination of information by governments. They have been able to apply pressure in the right places when necessary, and the mainstream media is inhabited largely by the same kinds of people who enter politics. Now the flow of information is in the hands of people who are 'not us'.
Yeah. 75% of Labour voters are "Establishment" and 75% of Tory voters are insurgents. Where do you get this guff ?
Most (though not all) of the Establishment favoured Remain.
I always assumed (without any evidence rather than my own experience) that election campaigns rarely change anyone’s mind as to who they are going to vote for, but they can influence how likely people are to vote. This means that echo chamber campaigning can be effective.
My recollection is that there were three internationally well-known politicians who spoke in favour of Brexit - LePen, Trump and of course Putin. Pretty much everybody who was paying attention knew that and would have assumed, as I did, that their interest in the matter was based on the well-established principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'. The electorate voted in the full knowledge of this, and indeed the corresponding support on the remain side from most world leaders, notably that dangerous scourge of liberal democracy, Barack Obama.
It was all just part of the noisy circumstances in which we made our choice. What's to complain about?
Mr. Jonathan, then we get into quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Lack of trust in the police and politicians means people will just believe what they want anyway, and screenshotting and the like, as well as the rapid pace of the internet, means the regulators will always be slower than their quarry.
Congratulations Mr Smithson, you have people discussing a non-story.
They 'disrupted' the referendum vote? I didn't see any Russian tweets. But then, being an Old Git, if it wasn't for Scott P, I wouldn't see any tweets at all. Did those tweets convince all the young people to vote Leave then?
Fanatics hate to see others' points of view put in any context. It's unfair that they should even have a platform.
The best thing is to take a long breath and chill out. The prevailing views are in favour of Remaining as you'd expect. Most people in the media are Remainers. I don't mind, it's the way of the world. But it won't change my mind, I understand that people have their own biases, as do I.
I can read the Guardian without wetting the bed too often.
Oh, but what about the children? It won't affect us mature people but others might be affected? Let's ban anything we don't approve of - that nasty Mr Obama, for instance. But, but it's twitter, it's powerful. Is it? The one who tweets most always wins?
This verges on hysteria. Cameron got one thing right. Too many tweets and all that.
Mr. Jonathan, then we get into quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Lack of trust in the police and politicians means people will just believe what they want anyway, and screenshotting and the like, as well as the rapid pace of the internet, means the regulators will always be slower than their quarry.
Not necessarily. It takes time to gain followers. Once an account is labelled as fake it becomes useless.
Not hard to create a bot to reply to fake news calling it out.
On topic - we have absolutely no idea how these bots affected the outcome, but I'd be surprised if they made a material difference. The mood music in the UK had been anti-EU for years, from the top of the government downwards. Russian bots did not help UKIP get all those votes at Euro elections.
It's hard to believe that Twitter was the only way in which the Russians sought to influence the elections - financing looks a very ripe area for investigation - but, again, the Leave win was not a huge surprise when you see it in the context of all that had happened over the previous decade and even beyond.
More generally, though, it does seem as if the Russians have a very sophisticated and coordinated destabilisation campaign going on. It's not just the referendum and the US election, of course. We know it happened in the French presidential election and strong evidence is now emerging of heavy Russian interest in events in Catalonia.
Successful beyond their wildest dream. Brexit has disabled British politics in one foul swoop.
Yes but how much was that due to their efforts or was that the way it was going anyway?
We need to find out. A Royal Commission into the validity of the 2016 vote. One question, "was the 2016 EU referendum a free and fair vote?". If no, we rerun the vote with safeguards.
Seems reasonable on something with such far reaching consequences.
Will the - now pro-Brexit - government be allowed to spend £9m on a leaflet to every household?
Doesn't everything we've seen in the last year scream out that we need to re run the referendum? It was prejudiced from day one when the BBC and other news outlets were required to give equal weight to both sides. The result was that an ignorant public were convinced that expert opinion was equally divided when of course the true picture was the overwhelming belief that leaving would be catastrophic.
My recollection is that there were three internationally well-known politicians who spoke in favour of Brexit - LePen, Trump and of course Putin. Pretty much everybody who was paying attention knew that and would have assumed, as I did, that their interest in the matter was based on the well-established principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'. The electorate voted in the full knowledge of this, and indeed the corresponding support on the remain side from most world leaders, notably that dangerous scourge of liberal democracy, Barack Obama.
It was all just part of the noisy circumstances in which we made our choice. What's to complain about?
It seems both Clinton and Remain supporters are over hyping Russian involvement as a comfort blanket against how awful Hilary Clinton and the Remain campaigns were. Most any other democrat would have buried Trump and 'project fear' felled Remain
Nothing to do with the crap Hillary and Remain campaigns of course
Psst....
Have you heard?
*leans in* Things. Can. Have. Multiple. Causes.
(And I think the failures of both those campaigns might have been mentioned on here already once or twice)
Inept, complacent, establishment campaigns, concerns over immigration and globalisation and populist, well targeted Leave and Trump campaigns making good use of social media all contributed to the Hillary and Remain defeat. Blaming Russian bots is just scraping the barrel
Yep, I agree.
But that does not make the Russians seeking to undermine votes in the UK and elsewhere acceptable or something to be laughed off.
The good news is that in Europe this seems to be understood. The bad news is that the US has now become so polarised that anything that helps "our side" is regarded as acceptable. That gives Putin a serious ability to shape things - see Trump and NATO, for example.
A friend just came back from a financial services conference in La Paree yesterday. Super depressed about prospects for post-Brexit financial services on both sides.
Fear is that eg. listings will go to NY. Third country equivalence was never made for us, and was more suitable for peripheral third countries, rather than us so a sh*t show beckons on that side, plus the view is that although important to us, financial services is way down the overall Brexit priority of Europe as a whole.
As for the "Europe must behave rationally" argument, the French regulator pointed out that the UK hadn't behaved rationally by voting to Leave so why would anyone expect rational behaviour from either side now?
Still, on the bright side, Italy is out of the World Cup.
Doesn't everything we've seen in the last year scream out that we need to re run the referendum? It was prejudiced from day one when the BBC and other news outlets were required to give equal weight to both sides. The result was that an ignorant public were convinced that expert opinion was equally divided when of course the true picture was overwhelmingly that leaving would be catastrophic.
Doesn't everything we've seen in the last year scream out that we need to re run the referendum? It was prejudiced from day one when the BBC and other news outlets were required to give equal weight to both sides. The result was that an ignorant public were convinced that expert opinion was equally divided when of course the true picture was overwhelmingly that leaving would be catastrophic.
Would you have been this blasé about Russian meddling it Remain had won 52/48 and it later transpired Putin’s troll army had been backing Remain ?
a) Everybody meddled. The UK Govt. meddled. The EU meddled. Obama meddled. The Establishment meddled. Seems the only people who weren't meddling were those lazy Remainers, sat on their big fat complacent arses.
b) You think we didn't meddle in USSR politics? Paybacks a bitch, as Mr Putin might say.
c) You REALLY think Putin influenced the final result?
d) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Again.... All of those interventions were overt. None were based on pretending to be British voters.
So if someone wanted to invalidate an election/referendum, all they have to do is pay someone in a foreign country to set up some twitter accounts and pretend to be voters in the country where the vote is taking place?
I'm not saying the result is invalid.
I'm just trying to stop this ridiculous superficial false equivalence between deliberate covert misinformation by a geopolitical rival, and international institutions expressing a view openly.
As with Trump, Brexiters are willing to jettison their patriotic democratic credentials by normalizing this kind of covert deception.
So when it happens at a GE and Corbyn gets on, they won't be able to complain...
I'd say it's almost certain that the Russians are going to be rooting for Jez. And Labour is miles ahead of the Tories on social media - which really is extremely influential in the round these days, as we know.
The Tories were much better at social media under Cameron in 2010 and 201, but Corbyn’s Labour most definitely won the Internet for this June’s election.
What might happen next time is anyone’s guess, there was evidence in the US that a lot of people turned off for the last couple of months of what was a very polarised and bad-mannered Presidential campaign last year.
My recollection is that there were three internationally well-known politicians who spoke in favour of Brexit - LePen, Trump and of course Putin. Pretty much everybody who was paying attention knew that and would have assumed, as I did, that their interest in the matter was based on the well-established principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'. The electorate voted in the full knowledge of this, and indeed the corresponding support on the remain side from most world leaders, notably that dangerous scourge of liberal democracy, Barack Obama.
It was all just part of the noisy circumstances in which we made our choice. What's to complain about?
It seems both Clinton and Remain supporters are over hyping Russian involvement as a comfort blanket against how awful Hilary Clinton and the Remain campaigns were. Most any other democrat would have buried Trump and 'project fear' felled Remain
That may well be true but in a close election - and it was a close election - any number of things can tip the balance. If one of those is foreign interference then you have a problem.
Put it another way: would anyone think it acceptable to say that to win, you need the support of, say, 55% of the Electoral College, whereas your opponent needs only 45%, because foreign intervention will make up the gap?
Comments
https://twitter.com/htscotpol/status/930713395388612609
Not a good precedent.
As much as I would like to stay in the EU, the more worrying development for me from all this would be a USA style polarisation where we stop putting fair play, democracy and the rule of law above party politics.
And have you really never had to take a bus-replacement service?
Have you heard?
*leans in*
Things. Can. Have. Multiple. Causes.
(And I think the failures of both those campaigns might have been mentioned on here already once or twice)
Or: the Remain campaign was utter shite, and continues to misunderstand the country, using this Russia obsession as an excuse not to examine itself.
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/maybe-margaret-thatcher-didnt-hate-buses-as-much-as-we-thought
One of the joys of Manchester Piccadilly is that there's an Enterprise-Rent-A-Car within 2 mins walk of it, so if there's a replacement bus service, I can hire a car instead, or I go back to the flat instead.
Seems reasonable on something with such far reaching consequences.
As I understand it, the show is being produced by his own company and given to RT. The only editorial content RT has is not to air it.
If appearing on RT itself is a crime, then many MPs have done so. Why not go after them ?
Since the start of the referendum campaign, we have had an MP killed in the street, a government invoking Henry VIII powers and judges being called traitors on the front page of a national newspaper. I think we can start talking about the importance of democratic norms now.
Farage and Russian interference are only two common denominators.
1) Remain. The 'Establishment' which is the larger part of the class that has been running the country and the international organisations, politics, the media etc, haven't given up on reversing the result. This is just part of the narrative. There may have been some interference, but the real interest here is to make that the story to de-legitimise the result of the Referendum.
2) The Internet and the battle to regulate it, and have the public accept that as the new normal. Trump and Brexit have scared the old media, governments and other supranational and international bodies. The dissemination of information (whether correct or false) is no longer under their control. For generations since the introduction of the mass media, there has been a large degree of control over the dissemination of information by governments. They have been able to apply pressure in the right places when necessary, and the mainstream media is inhabited largely by the same kinds of people who enter politics. Now the flow of information is in the hands of people who are 'not us'.
And Remain losing the Referendum was the mother of all fuck ups.....
Whereas Russian Twitter bots would have been seen by a fraction of Twitter users who happened to come across those Tweets. Approximately three-quarters of the UK don't even have a Twitter account in the first place, let alone use it obsessively daily. Of those who do have a Twitter account the 45k Tweets sent are a drop in the ocean compared to the approximately 500 million Tweets sent globally (I can't find UK figures atm) per day.
The idea that most voters would have even seen these Tweets let alone changed their vote based on them is patently absurd. Twitter is not the country.
https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/930717818739478528
Brexit is becoming a religion. Hear no evil, see no evil. speak no evil...
The world can't switch off Russia's internet.
But that does not make the Russians seeking to undermine votes in the UK and elsewhere acceptable or something to be laughed off.
The good news is that in Europe this seems to be understood. The bad news is that the US has now become so polarised that anything that helps "our side" is regarded as acceptable. That gives Putin a serious ability to shape things - see Trump and NATO, for example.
Although these views are likely to coincide with one's position on the EU referendum – the percentage who criticise the President outstrips the current Brexit vote share.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/04/23/public-obama-eu-debate/
Despite being paid to stir up trouble on news websites, Alexander Petrov’s posts are never more furious and unhinged than genuine opinions on topics like immigration and the EU.
St Petersburg-based Petrov said: “My job is to post lies and propaganda to weaken Europe, but sometimes I wonder why I bother with all these twats spouting rubbish themselves.
“Yesterday I lied that the EU wanted uncontrolled immigration, but then ‘Wigan Lass’ posted ‘Nuke the Brussels NAZIS + every foreign shitehole then invent a disease that only kills the French!!!’ She got 280 ‘recommends’ and I only got 11.
http://tinyurl.com/ComradeLeavers
Edit: I see you added the citation!
Their main purpose is to sow discord and undermine democracy. In that they have been very successful. Putin appears to be far more skilful and manipulative than Lenin, Stalin.
Leavers are used to busses, Remainers aren't because we're more successful.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/21/africa/zimbabwe-mugabe-named-who-goodwill-ambassador/index.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12177987/Jimmy-Savile-Vote-Conservative-hoax-spreads-on-social-media.html
Hang on, I voted remain!
It won't be free nor fair due to Russian influence.
https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/930695089994813440?s=17
My recollection is that there were three internationally well-known politicians who spoke in favour of Brexit - LePen, Trump and of course Putin. Pretty much everybody who was paying attention knew that and would have assumed, as I did, that their interest in the matter was based on the well-established principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'. The electorate voted in the full knowledge of this, and indeed the corresponding support on the remain side from most world leaders, notably that dangerous scourge of liberal democracy, Barack Obama.
It was all just part of the noisy circumstances in which we made our choice. What's to complain about?
Lack of trust in the police and politicians means people will just believe what they want anyway, and screenshotting and the like, as well as the rapid pace of the internet, means the regulators will always be slower than their quarry.
They 'disrupted' the referendum vote? I didn't see any Russian tweets. But then, being an Old Git, if it wasn't for Scott P, I wouldn't see any tweets at all. Did those tweets convince all the young people to vote Leave then?
Fanatics hate to see others' points of view put in any context. It's unfair that they should even have a platform.
The best thing is to take a long breath and chill out. The prevailing views are in favour of Remaining as you'd expect. Most people in the media are Remainers. I don't mind, it's the way of the world. But it won't change my mind, I understand that people have their own biases, as do I.
I can read the Guardian without wetting the bed too often.
Oh, but what about the children? It won't affect us mature people but others might be affected? Let's ban anything we don't approve of - that nasty Mr Obama, for instance. But, but it's twitter, it's powerful. Is it? The one who tweets most always wins?
This verges on hysteria. Cameron got one thing right. Too many tweets and all that.
Not hard to create a bot to reply to fake news calling it out.
Justice League's first reviews are in, and the critics are NOT impressed.
It's no Wonder Woman... but hey, it's better than Batman v Superman.
http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/justice-league/news/a842752/justice-league-review-first-reactions/
Fear is that eg. listings will go to NY. Third country equivalence was never made for us, and was more suitable for peripheral third countries, rather than us so a sh*t show beckons on that side, plus the view is that although important to us, financial services is way down the overall Brexit priority of Europe as a whole.
As for the "Europe must behave rationally" argument, the French regulator pointed out that the UK hadn't behaved rationally by voting to Leave so why would anyone expect rational behaviour from either side now?
Still, on the bright side, Italy is out of the World Cup.
What might happen next time is anyone’s guess, there was evidence in the US that a lot of people turned off for the last couple of months of what was a very polarised and bad-mannered Presidential campaign last year.
Put it another way: would anyone think it acceptable to say that to win, you need the support of, say, 55% of the Electoral College, whereas your opponent needs only 45%, because foreign intervention will make up the gap?