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We have the whole of history to debate her politics and policies. But for now we should wish her family the best and let her be.
I'll hazard a guess, extensively?
Who will have the biggest coverage?
This is a battle Dacre, Desmond, Rupert and the Barclays will not want to lose.
Only one can win.
Of course people have "behaved themselves". There is nothing to celebrate.
A frail old lady has died, that's sad.
Thatcher's evil legacy will not be undone by her death, that's even more sad.
@olifranklin: Asked it they would tell their kids that they celebrate when an old woman had a stroke. I think it killed the mood. #thatcher
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/liverpoolecho/apr2013/8/6/thatcher-wordcloud-759643105.jpg
First of all, my condolences to the Thatcher family.
With the passage of time, I look on things very differently in some ways now from how I viewed things in their immediate aftermath. But one thing that will never be denied will be the colossal impact she had and how many seemingly insurmountable barriers she overcame. One truly remarkable woman.
One thing I'm very glad which has come out of today is the difference between her legend and the reality. So many forget the pragmatism of the early years - beating a tactical retreat from taking on the miners in 1981, the main trade union legislation only being post 1983, and not least the moderate nature of the 1979 manifesto itself. And I'm also glad that the whole 'rolling back the frontiers of the state' legend has had the record put straight. Yes public spending as a % of the economy fell slightly over the 1979-1990 period, but it was hardly dramatic!
On my specialist subject - economics, here too the record is fascinating and often mis-portrayed, both from critical and praiseworthy polemics. For instance, the bleak unemployment figures of the early 1980's were exacerbated by the demographics of the birth rate peaking in the early to mid-1960's. Sterling's rise at the time, and implementing the Clegg public sector pay awards, bequeathed by the Callaghan government didn't help matters either. These days though, I do reflect that some of the downsides of the economic record - the growing inequality between rich and poor, the increasing availability of credit and debt - were the early warning signs for the great problems that afflict our economy today. And (arguably) I believe much of that would have happened anyway, irrespective of who was in power.
I still don't think many of the changes - overhaul of the trade unions, economic reform, Ireland etc could have been done without much of the strife involved, plus the small matter of the Falklands - after the setbacks of the the 1970's from the heady days of the 1960's, it simply was never going to be like that. There are so many counterfactuals too - what if Leon Brittan hadn't resigned over Westland, and Kinnock not made a rambling speech, self acknowledged as the greatest mistake of his 9 years? The Falklands? Brighton? The Miners Strike? Things with a little nudge here and there, could easily have been very different indeed.
And we saw her human side too - yes the great 'successes' of the early years went to her head - I could say that about many people, especially in sport about that human frailty. Like Nick Palmer said earlier today, its a shame she had nothing outside of politics to consume her later years post November 1990. Did she have one truly happy day in the last 22 and a bit years?
I also found her 'all the solutions come from the English speaking peoples' speech very sad indeed, even allowing for WW2 coming in her teenage years. On Europe, it still seems out of character for her, that she signed the European Single Act without realising the implications, and joining the ERM in October 1990 ( I thought that was late 1989 before looking it up!) in retrospect was confirmation of being worn down by senior cabinet colleagues. To this day, I still find it amazing that she espoused the poll tax, which as I think Douglas Hurd aptly put it, 'went against all her principles'.
Finally I'm glad there won't be a state funeral, even over 22 years later, that would have been far too devisive.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/32521
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLt56gDzCLg
Found a lot of the comments by Shirley WIlliams particularly perceptive. Ken Clarke is also good value in parts.
:asshat-watch:
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." 'Nuff said.
I may have to steal it... [Journey to Altmortis starts with a quote, and I was wondering about doing the same for a later book].
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Time-Inside-Thatcher-Revolution/dp/1854107089/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365454176&sr=8-1&keywords=just+in+time+hoskyns
Should sell well in most of the country.
We shall either adapt to the new economic reality, claw our way out of the pit and prosper, or adopt the policies of comfortable innumeracy that will plunge us further into the darkness.
"Votes do not fall from the trees like ripe plums. They have to be fought for".
– PRIVATE MEETING OF TORY CANDIDATES BEFORE THE 1979 GENERAL ELECTION.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100211200/margaret-thatcher-dies-dave-basks-in-the-limelight/
I wonder what Mr Delingpole thinks David Cameron should have done today?
Oh Delingpole, you Grade A pr*ck you.
Why do people like him and Dan Hodges have paid employment?
I blame Thatcher.
http://jackofkent.com/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-in-perspective/
However, in terms of policy, the record of Thatcher was a lot more mixed than either admirers or haters will ever admit.
For example: the Police and Criminal Evidence Act of 1984 (PACE) is, in practical terms, the most important civil liberties statute of modern times. It may be that, say, the Human Rights Act of 1998 has more overall significance; but it is PACE which on an everyday-basis limits the excesses of police power, and not any heady invocation of human rights.
http://news.uk.msn.com/margaret-thatcher-dies-brixton-celebrates#image=5
where have you been?! The Labour selection in Bermondsey and Old Southwark have started. Already 3 candidates out and about
Cllr Gavin Edwards ( Peckham Rye): http://gavin4bos.wordpress.com/
Cllr Neil Coyle (Newington) http://www.neilcoyle.org.uk/
Cllr Richard Livingstone (Livesey) http://richardlivingstone.wordpress.com/
Astonishing figure she quotes: the year before (1983?) the coal mines lost £1.3 billion pounds, more than the cost of all the salaries of all the doctors and dentists in the NHS.
Sad to see the mines go, but inevitable on those figures.
I'm pretty sure he was in Uni with Cameron too.
Oddball.
What would she make of our banks ?
A difficult task to report her death and legacy for sure, but they certainly aren't reflecting the centre / majority view of the woman very well.
Perhaps that's for another time.
Thanks Andrea, I've been in a news vacuum for a little while so missed the starting gun for that selection. Does Neil Coyle have Unite backing formally or is the link on his site a little misleading. Richard Livingstone would be the best known name of the three but I have no idea whether that will translate into support. Has Dora thrown her hat into the ring?
Nothing startling or new will likely be reported now.
Sure, but the mines were making losses like that each year, the banks have over past decades paid vast amounts in tax, as have their workers. One day they may do so again. That was never going to happen with the mines.
"Just wondering what you make of Blair and Brown's legacy."
Blair was Thatcher's evil legacy.
" A champion of freedom for workers, for nations and the world"
"the outstanding peacetime leader of the 20th century"
" How Thatcher changed Britain for the better"
"Every politician in Britain is in her shade"
As you say, should sell well.
I also briefly caught Peter Allen on this afternoon and he had some great anecdotes about her from during his time working in the press lobby.
The Beeb did well, fair play.
other updates...
John Biggs AM has been selected as Mayoral candidate in Tower Hamlets.
Brent Central, Hornsey, Enfield North and Hendon have been officially advertized too.
IIRC Dismore didn't rule out another attempt in Hendon...so I guess it's him again if he wants.
Enfield North is AWS. I wonder if Joan Ryan wants a comeback but I didn't read anything regarding it.
Brent Central is open....and they need to stop Dawn Butler as she apparently wants to stand again. A black Hackney Cllr and a Somali woman from Bethnal Green have already joined the race + various males Brent Cllrs are expected to have a go too.
The Islington council leader has been mentioned too but I think she would go for Hornsey (as she was shortlisted there last time too).
The Labour euro shortlist have been published today too. No-one from your part of London IIRC. But they reclyced a failed candidate for Italian parliament ex pats constituency. I root for him!
Opinions remain strong on both sides: half of her admirers, 25%, rate her record as "very good", and most of her detractors, 20% of the overall sample, deem it to have been "very bad". Indeed, only 11% sit on the fence and say she was "neither good nor bad"; an even smaller slither of opinion, just 5%, told ICM that they didn't know.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/britain-divided-margaret-thatcher-record-poll
But not enough, and made horrible mistakes (eg buying into Thatcher's mad policies on economics and the City which directly led to the deficit and debt crisis we're now living through, Iraq)
"The real tragedy is that while she may be dead herself her ideas are still alive and well in the form of the ConDem coalition and New Labour," says Dave Nellist, Labour MP for Coventry South West between 1983 and 1992 and now a Socialist Party spokesman.
Just for grins it seemed at times.
I mean, how many warnings from the IMF etal did Brown ignore?
No more boom and bust indeed.
Total reverence from the Telegraph in their front page.
"The City will never get back to the boom levels of 2007 because they are dangerously unsustainable."
By the time there's another credit bubble on a similar scale - and we're nowhere near the end of the deflationary spiral from the 2008 one yet - the City banks will all be in East Asia imo.
Daily Mirror a tad on the ungracious side also if you look at the small print.
That certainly puts things in perspective. Very true to say that the effective subsidies to the banking industry post 2007 dwarf anything seen in respect of the nationalised industries in the post WW2 period in real terms. And its nice to see that I'm not the only one mentioning deflation!
Seemed appropriate, don't like champagne anyway.
*doublechecks*
Blimey.
That's a strange, strange one indeed.
Serious miscalculation at NI HQ.
RBS has made accumulated losses of almost £40 bn since 2008. HBOS losses are of a similar scale and now carried by LLoyds. How many years' mining is that ?
And the balance sheets aren't fully cleaned up yet.
What happened to the banks, with Gordon Brown's "light touch regulation" and nationalisation of liabilities will be a problem for some time, but it will be resolved in time, and those banks will either shut or return to profit. In this way the fate of the mines and the fate of the banks will be similar, the difference is that the mines were never going to return to profit.
I was born in a mining town, and have some affinity with miners as a result, but the writing was on the wall for the mines for decades, which is why so many mines closed in the 60's and 70's, under governments both red and blue.
There would have to be one hell of an effort to make Made in Chelsea viewers pay much attention to today's news. It all feels like a long long time ago now.
"With a strong will, she transformed both Britain and modern capitalism"
"Mine losses might have been shit but they weren't that bad and at least they employed people."
Are you suggesting, that the mines should have been kept open even though nobody wanted to buy their product, and today they wouldn't be allowed to - remember burning coal is evil and causes polar bears to die? Wasn't the late Baroness and early adopter of Global Warming?
Anyway, several of your posts lately have caused me to worry about you. This idea that it would have been better to pay people very large sums to dig out stuff from the ground that has no economic value is just another example. Is their anything you feel you should tell us?
The blood runs deep, so deep, amongst the people and communities she affected.
But for many people, it's all a bit meh.
I don't expect much political impact.
It's a pretty hard thing to mess up truth be told. but they seem to have managed it. We all know the Sun are hardly likely to be hostile to her so a great many will be scratching their heads over that one.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned much today is one of the great fault lines of Thatcherism - on the one hand the great drive to empower the individual through home / share ownership when set against the centralisation of power, particularly the transfer of powers from local government towards the centre.
My family tree shows every generation from 1634 working in the Durham pits.
Between 1800 and 1983, Durham Mining Museum has records of 311 shafts and drifts in a 5 mile radius from my house. Most of those pits closed over the years due to exhaustion. However, in 1963 there were still 71 working collieries in that 5 mile radius. Between 1963 and 1983, all 71 had closed, interestingly 37 under Conservative governments, and 34 under Labour. Most were closed under the chairmanship of the NCB by Lord (Alf) Robens, former Labour MP for Blyth.
The market for coal catestrophically declined during that period. Coal for home heating/cooking and the railways dried up, encouraged by the actions of Labour Councils and the Durham Aged Miners' Homes Association in converting thousands oh houses to gas central heating. The market disappeared, at the same time as pits were encountering serious geological problems. The end was inevitable.
Six Durham pits struggled on to the 1990's -
Dawdon, sank 1907 closed 1991
Easington sank 1899 closed 1993
Murton sank 1843 closed 1991
Seaham sank 1926 closed 1993
Wearmouth sank 1835 closed 1993
Westoe sank 1909 closed 1993
These pits were all operating under the North Sea, and hit serious, insurmountable geological faults. The very last pit in the North Eastern coalfield, Ellington, sank 1909, closed 2005.
A Labour government could have saved Ellington, but didn't.
Margaret Thatcher has been accused of decimating the Durham mining industry, but strictly speaking, the last Durham pits closed after she had left office.
A final comment: "Nee son of mine is gannin doon the pit". Spoken by my aunt in the 1960's.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/30/royal-bank-scotland-lloyds-deficit
As to the banks' losses: RBS lost £5.2bn last year, and around £750m the year before; £1.1bn in 2010, £3.6bn in 2009, and £24.3bn in 2008. The losses are past-heavy and the future looks much better than for the mines.
Your Wodhouse impression is the best we've got from Tories on PB, you must do better!
On Newsnight now, although Lamont and Livingstone are polemics apart, can appreciate a lot of the points that both of them make - such are the contradictions of life!
meh
People won't be short of stuff to pick from for the next few days anyway.
She cooperated with Charles Moore, the former editor of the Daily Telegraph, on her memoirs, on the condition that they not be published while she was alive. She did not read the manuscript. "
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/345005/lady-thatchers-funeral-and-forthcoming-biography-john-fund