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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A reminder of the great political betting night June 23/24 201

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mrs C, well, a previous FS (D. Miliband) got the capital of Brazil wrong, and the incumbent Leader of the Opposition spent several years praising Venezuelan economics.

    So, quite a bit.
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    The sad thing is that this shit meme lolz Momentum character O'Mara defeated one of the few good Lib Dems.

    Well done, Labour, look what you did. Rub your nose in it.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420

    Aren't we promised his views on Gandhi and Mandela at some point too?
    A half naked fakir and a terrorist?
    I'm not sure that would be the language a Labour MP of 2017 would be advised to use, irrespective of the status of those who might have done in the past.
    Well he's called the Spanish "dagos" and the Danes "pig shaggers", I rule nothing out when it comes to Mr O'Mara.
    One amusing feature of those who get terribly upset by the description of Mandela as a terrorist is that Mandela himself implicitly accepted that description at his trial. His argument was that terrorism (against property and infrastructure) was justified given the lack of rights and opportunity to meaningfully protest against wrongs. He was, of course, right.

    Given his other comments, I doubt Mr O'Mara has the linguistic imagination or knowledge of history to quote Churchill or work out something similar for himself. (Not that it was one of Churchill's better moments).
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,604

    Anyhoo, I think David Davis has dropped a bombshell.

    David Davis has stunned MPs by warning they may not get a vote on any Brexit deal until after Britain has left the European Union.

    The Brexit Secretary predicted the negotiations will drag on until the last minute on the last day in 2019 and be “very exciting”.

    Asked if that meant the promised Parliamentary vote on the agreement could be delayed until after Brexit Day, in March 2019, he replied: “Yes, it could be"


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-mp-vote-uk-leave-eu-david-davis-deal-talks-european-union-trade-1050-a8018761.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    He's talking tosh (which is unfortunate given his position).

    Any agreement needs ratifying by the European Parliament. A UK parliamentary vote is a nice to have but not legally or constitutionally essential (it probably will be politically essential, which is why there'll be one).

    For there to be a vote in the EP - without which, no deal agreed by the Council is valid - there needs to be at the minimum, a few days' time in which to take it. And if there's time for one in Brussels (or Strasbourg), then there's time for one in Westminster.
    The act of the UK leaving the EU is entirely distinct act of ratifying the terms of a "deal" governing how we conduct trade etc with the EU after we have left. If not, then by your argument, the various EU institutions would have a veto on whether the UK leaves.
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    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    The moon landings were faked according to some.
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    Did I say O'Mara's comments were Guido Fawkes' fault? No. I said these comments are the norm for a great lot of this country, and that Guido's website has played a key role in dragging this kind of vile culture into political commentary (e.g. http://www.francisbeckett.co.uk/latest-blog/5-general/118-why-right-wing-internet-thugs-threaten-our-freedom).

    Penny quotes comments about her on Staines’s site. "Perhaps Sharia might be a good thing after all, if Ms Penny was not allowed out without a member of her Family and we did not have to look at her face, also we could stone her to death...” "Call me old fashioned bt this young lady shouid [sic] be whipped through the streets of London before being made to suck Ken Livingstones cock as people throw shit at the pair of them." She asked for these to be taken down and the men who run the site told her to get a sense of humour.

    Guido has allowed and encouraged a lot worse from his supporters. He's not part of the cure 'shining a light' on anything, but part of the disease.

    You went BTL

    Don't go BTL

    What is BTL?
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Mrs C, well, a previous FS (D. Miliband) got the capital of Brazil wrong, and the incumbent Leader of the Opposition spent several years praising Venezuelan economics.

    So, quite a bit.

    It seems that we do not have politicians fit to govern.

    Perhaps we need a larger pool of talent to draw from? What about a Federal Europe? :D:D:D:D
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Sure we will. Because none of them have a clause relating to the EU or our membership of it. And it all happen in the nanosecond after Brexit because a 'businessman' on twitter says so.
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    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Anyhoo, I think David Davis has dropped a bombshell.

    David Davis has stunned MPs by warning they may not get a vote on any Brexit deal until after Britain has left the European Union.

    The Brexit Secretary predicted the negotiations will drag on until the last minute on the last day in 2019 and be “very exciting”.

    Asked if that meant the promised Parliamentary vote on the agreement could be delayed until after Brexit Day, in March 2019, he replied: “Yes, it could be"


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-mp-vote-uk-leave-eu-david-davis-deal-talks-european-union-trade-1050-a8018761.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    He's talking tosh (which is unfortunate given his position).

    Any agreement needs ratifying by the European Parliament. A UK parliamentary vote is a nice to have but not legally or constitutionally essential (it probably will be politically essential, which is why there'll be one).

    For there to be a vote in the EP - without which, no deal agreed by the Council is valid - there needs to be at the minimum, a few days' time in which to take it. And if there's time for one in Brussels (or Strasbourg), then there's time for one in Westminster.
    The act of the UK leaving the EU is entirely distinct act of ratifying the terms of a "deal" governing how we conduct trade etc with the EU after we have left. If not, then by your argument, the various EU institutions would have a veto on whether the UK leaves.
    Ach you and your facts.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited October 2017
    @Winstanley
    Your last paragraph is spot on. I remember how he took ‘criticising’ Diane Abbott way too far several months ago with that weird image with him in the bed with a cardboard cut out of her face.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2017
    So how long do we give it until O’Mara is brought back from the naughty step?

    I reckon during Christmas break when everybody is more interested in what Santa has brought them, what time the post Christmas sales start and how they are going to lose the extra pounds they piled on.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    So how long do we give it until O’Mara is brought back from the naughty step?

    I reckon during Christmas break when everybody is more interested in what Santa has brought them and how they are going to lose the extra pounds they piled on.

    Perhaps a one week outpatient clinic a la Weinstein will be enough ?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2017
    TGOHF said:

    So how long do we give it until O’Mara is brought back from the naughty step?

    I reckon during Christmas break when everybody is more interested in what Santa has brought them and how they are going to lose the extra pounds they piled on.

    Perhaps a one week outpatient clinic a la Weinstein will be enough ?
    Its a miracle....

    Speaking of which...how did it take 20 years for this guy to be outed as a slimeball....I mean it is totally normally for the photographer to be butt naked on set right?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4759377/terry-richardson-makes-harvey-weinstein-look-like-bambi/
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    I am going to assume that's a wind-up. I can't bring myself to believe the alternative could be true.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941



    Did I say O'Mara's comments were Guido Fawkes' fault? No. I said these comments are the norm for a great lot of this country, and that Guido's website has played a key role in dragging this kind of vile culture into political commentary (e.g. http://www.francisbeckett.co.uk/latest-blog/5-general/118-why-right-wing-internet-thugs-threaten-our-freedom).

    Penny quotes comments about her on Staines’s site. "Perhaps Sharia might be a good thing after all, if Ms Penny was not allowed out without a member of her Family and we did not have to look at her face, also we could stone her to death...” "Call me old fashioned bt this young lady shouid [sic] be whipped through the streets of London before being made to suck Ken Livingstones cock as people throw shit at the pair of them." She asked for these to be taken down and the men who run the site told her to get a sense of humour.

    Guido has allowed and encouraged a lot worse from his supporters. He's not part of the cure 'shining a light' on anything, but part of the disease.

    You went BTL

    Don't go BTL

    What is BTL?
    Below the line. The comments under the articles.

    Yes there’s some awful comments there, but they’re not written by Guido’s editorial team. What they write above the line is what’s good for shining a light into politics and politicians.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. P, if you go a few lines down:
    https://twitter.com/LORDMARKPRICE/status/922856986684874753

    Mrs C, I'm not sure advocating Merkel running the UK migration system would be a vote-winner.

    The problem isn't the pool of talent, it's [mostly] the horrendous media approach, which is to put politicians under a microscope and cast a passing glance at legislation.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Would Clegg stand again in a Hallam by-election? He'd win easily of course with Tory votes.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    Beforehand there were a number of crash landings too... The Ranger series either failed to launch, missed the moon completely or had equipment failures. Only numbers 7, 8 and 9 made it.

    Is Brexit Ranger or Apollo? And remember, it was Apollo eleven that finally made it. How many goes at Brexit are we allowed?
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2017
    Mr P? It's very easy to make assertions. As any good brexiteer knows.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    AndyJS said:

    Would Clegg stand again in a Hallam by-election? He'd win easily of course with Tory votes.

    Let's hope so. Parliament needs his knowledge of Brexit car crash.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    Anorak said:

    Sure we will. Because none of them have a clause relating to the EU or our membership of it. And it all happen in the nanosecond after Brexit because a 'businessman' on twitter says so.
    Who irritatingly styles himself as a younger son of a duke or marquess.
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    Mr. P, if you go a few lines down:
    https://twitter.com/LORDMARKPRICE/status/922856986684874753

    Mrs C, I'm not sure advocating Merkel running the UK migration system would be a vote-winner.

    The problem isn't the pool of talent, it's [mostly] the horrendous media approach, which is to put politicians under a microscope and cast a passing glance at legislation.

    But if you go a few more tweets down, he can't provide any evidence for his assertion.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Anorak, I was replying to Mr. P's comment on the tweet.

    If you're just going to ignore what people say then having a debate would appear to be a futile endeavour.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    Sandpit said:



    Did I say O'Mara's comments were Guido Fawkes' fault? No. I said these comments are the norm for a great lot of this country, and that Guido's website has played a key role in dragging this kind of vile culture into political commentary (e.g. http://www.francisbeckett.co.uk/latest-blog/5-general/118-why-right-wing-internet-thugs-threaten-our-freedom).

    Penny quotes comments about her on Staines’s site. "Perhaps Sharia might be a good thing after all, if Ms Penny was not allowed out without a member of her Family and we did not have to look at her face, also we could stone her to death...” "Call me old fashioned bt this young lady shouid [sic] be whipped through the streets of London before being made to suck Ken Livingstones cock as people throw shit at the pair of them." She asked for these to be taken down and the men who run the site told her to get a sense of humour.

    Guido has allowed and encouraged a lot worse from his supporters. He's not part of the cure 'shining a light' on anything, but part of the disease.

    You went BTL

    Don't go BTL

    What is BTL?
    Below the line. The comments under the articles.

    Yes there’s some awful comments there, but they’re not written by Guido’s editorial team. What they write above the line is what’s good for shining a light into politics and politicians.
    There are some hysterically funny, totally NSFW youtube clips about youtube comments - google "Youtube comment reconstruction" to get a feel for what can happen btl.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited October 2017

    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    I’m going to have to disagree that that is ‘evidence’ of an anti-white sentiment. It seems that the lady in question simply wants the curriculum broadened to include writers that aren’t mainly/only white and male: obviously, we know that great literature has been written by those from many different ethnic and racial backgrounds. Given that many universities will look at the historical context of a text as well as any issues concerning race or gender it doesn’t seem unreasonable that those texts come from a board range of writers from many different backgrounds.

    I have large doubts that whites will ever not be the majority in this country. Many ethnic minorities will (well, they already are) go on to have interracial relationships, and their kids will go on to also have interracial relationships meaning that in the long term there’s less of them. This is already happening in some black communities (especially with West Indians).
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    AndyJS said:

    Would Clegg stand again in a Hallam by-election? He'd win easily of course with Tory votes.

    I reckon he wins purely on an anti Jared O'Mara ticket.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2017

    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    I’m going to have to disagree that that is ‘evidence’ of an anti-white sentiment. It seems that the lady in question simply wants the curriculum boarded to include writers that aren’t mainly/only white and male: obviously, we know that great literature has been written by those from many different ethnic and racial backgrounds. Given that many universities will look at the historical context of a text as well as any issues concerning race or gender it doesn’t seem unreasonable that those texts come from a board range of writers from many different backgrounds.

    I have large doubts that whites will ever not be the majority in this country. Many ethnic minorities will (well, they already are) go on to have interracial relationships, and their kids will go on to also have interracial relationships meaning that in the long term there’s less of them. This is already happening in some black communities (especially with West Indians).
    What about the those at SOAS arguing against learning about the likes of Plato and Descartes based purely on the fact they were white?
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    Nigelb said:

    For all those supporting Heaton-Harris yesterday... his own party has left him twisting in the wind:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41747035

    People on here were supporting him? Astonishing. It's obvious what happened: Heaton-Harris got carried away with the whole 'Crush the Saboteurs', 'Will of the People' stuff and tried to make a name for himself as a Brexit boot boy. Academia has been a bogeyman of the populist Right for some time, so it's obvious why he chose that as his target. What a bullying yobbo.
    +1.
    The wording of his letter was quite threatening. Whether he intended it to be that way is an open question.

    His questions are incoherant. What university runs a course about Brexit? How many degree courses or even classes are there in Brexit studies?

    It seems like yet another example of the poor quality of MP's that inhibit our parliament. He seems to fall in to the same category as Laura Pidcock. You can imagine Laura Pidcock writing a similarly stupid letter.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420

    Anyhoo, I think David Davis has dropped a bombshell.

    David Davis has stunned MPs by warning they may not get a vote on any Brexit deal until after Britain has left the European Union.

    The Brexit Secretary predicted the negotiations will drag on until the last minute on the last day in 2019 and be “very exciting”.

    Asked if that meant the promised Parliamentary vote on the agreement could be delayed until after Brexit Day, in March 2019, he replied: “Yes, it could be"


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-mp-vote-uk-leave-eu-david-davis-deal-talks-european-union-trade-1050-a8018761.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    He's talking tosh (which is unfortunate given his position).

    Any agreement needs ratifying by the European Parliament. A UK parliamentary vote is a nice to have but not legally or constitutionally essential (it probably will be politically essential, which is why there'll be one).

    For there to be a vote in the EP - without which, no deal agreed by the Council is valid - there needs to be at the minimum, a few days' time in which to take it. And if there's time for one in Brussels (or Strasbourg), then there's time for one in Westminster.
    The act of the UK leaving the EU is entirely distinct act of ratifying the terms of a "deal" governing how we conduct trade etc with the EU after we have left. If not, then by your argument, the various EU institutions would have a veto on whether the UK leaves.
    No-one has a veto on whether Britain leaves. They have a veto on whether the agreement reached under A50 will be applied.

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

    That deal could include trade but need not necessarily. What it will include will be the transitional arrangements, the divorce bill, citizens' rights and, probably, the Irish border.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    Beforehand there were a number of crash landings too... The Ranger series either failed to launch, missed the moon completely or had equipment failures. Only numbers 7, 8 and 9 made it.

    Is Brexit Ranger or Apollo? And remember, it was Apollo eleven that finally made it. How many goes at Brexit are we allowed?
    I think I read that the switch to fire the LM engine to get them off the moon actually broke off and it was only by chance that a biro was the right size to fit in the hole left behind to improvise a switch that enabled it to fire. All of which was apparently very ironic because NASA had spent oodles getting pens to work in zero gravity so the astronauts could make notes - something the Russians did for no money because they hit on the hi tech idea of using pencils.

    Still work in the end it did.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314

    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    The moon landings were faked according to some.
    JFK said that we choose to do these things because they are hard.

    Brexiteers assured us that it would be easy.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314

    The sad thing is that this shit meme lolz Momentum character O'Mara defeated one of the few good Lib Dems.

    Well done, Labour, look what you did. Rub your nose in it.

    :+1:
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    How many more young people who are "on a journey" has Momentum attracted to the Labour party?
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    The moon landings were faked according to some.
    JFK said that we choose to do these things because they are hard.

    Brexiteers assured us that it would be easy.
    It's burning up on attempting rentry you want to be wary of.
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    John McDonnell told BBC News: "There will be a full investigation by the Labour Party and then, as a result of that, a final decision will be made about his future."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41750136

    I think we all know what happens with these kind of investigations...
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    John McDonnell told BBC News: "There will be a full investigation by the Labour Party and then, as a result of that, a final decision will be made about his future."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41750136

    I think we all know what happens with these kind of investigations...

    Sir Humphrey would be proud.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: Shami: “I think it would be a terrible shame for our democracy and public life if people weren't allowed to make serious mistakes"
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    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Shami: “I think it would be a terrible shame for our democracy and public life if people weren't allowed to make serious mistakes"

    Like Iraq?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Shami: “I think it would be a terrible shame for our democracy and public life if people weren't allowed to make serious mistakes"

    :lol: I wondered how long before this would happen...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    How is she going to lose this one?

    @GuidoFawkes: Positive GDP figures, "Momentum's First Labour MP" suspended over vile behaviour. Over to Theresa May now for #PMQs
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    A few different discussions ongoing:

    Jared O'Whoops - man makes pratt of himself online shock. The Right On nutters in the party won't like him, but constituents will be more concerned about what he does for them. He'll be safe - he needs to come out and say "I wrote stupid things online after a few beers" and his support will go up not down

    The Late Late Brexit show. Not sure that David understands how business works. They can't afford to wait until the last minute. As TSE said earlier they will take no progress towards a deal this month as hard as possible Brexit and act accordingly. The government won't like those actions as they will be pulling of investment and sacking of workers, expect more accusations of "traitors" towards the CBI, business leaders etc from those sociopathic loons that infest the Tory Party
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    Scott_P said:

    How is she going to lose this one?

    @GuidoFawkes: Positive GDP figures, "Momentum's First Labour MP" suspended over vile behaviour. Over to Theresa May now for #PMQs

    Cough....cough....cough....cough....cough...
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    The moon landings were faked according to some.
    JFK said that we choose to do these things because they are hard.

    Brexiteers assured us that it would be easy.
    It's burning up on attempting rentry you want to be wary of.
    :lol:
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2017



    Jared O'Whoops - man makes pratt of himself online shock. The Right On nutters in the party won't like him, but constituents will be more concerned about what he does for them. He'll be safe - he needs to come out and say "I wrote stupid things online after a few beers" and his support will go up not down

    I was very much of this opinion, until we heard that even up to a few months ago he was still doing this and doing it in person. The incident with the lady in the nightclub was more than making a knob of yourself on a messageboard when you were drunk as a 20 year old.
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    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    I’m going to have to disagree that that is ‘evidence’ of an anti-white sentiment. It seems that the lady in question simply wants the curriculum boarded to include writers that aren’t mainly/only white and male: obviously, we know that great literature has been written by those from many different ethnic and racial backgrounds. Given that many universities will look at the historical context of a text as well as any issues concerning race or gender it doesn’t seem unreasonable that those texts come from a board range of writers from many different backgrounds.

    I have large doubts that whites will ever not be the majority in this country. Many ethnic minorities will (well, they already are) go on to have interracial relationships, and their kids will go on to also have interracial relationships meaning that in the long term there’s less of them. This is already happening in some black communities (especially with West Indians).
    What about the those at SOAS arguing against learning about the likes of Plato and Descartes based purely on the fact they were white?
    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Shami: “I think it would be a terrible shame for our democracy and public life if people weren't allowed to make serious mistakes"

    Like Iraq?
    He shoots, he scores!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Eagles, are they offering odds on there being no by-election?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Britain extricating itself from the European Union will be “incomparably more complex” than the first moon landing, an academic study has found.

    Roland Alter, a professor at Heilbronn University in Germany who specialises in risk assessment, said he had been inspired to carry out his analysis after comments by the Brexit secretary, David Davis, that he was “running a set of projects that make the Nasa moonshot look quite simple”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/24/brexit-more-complex-than-first-moon-landing-says-academic-study

    But eventually there was a successful touchdown in the Sea of Tranquillity.
    Beforehand there were a number of crash landings too... The Ranger series either failed to launch, missed the moon completely or had equipment failures. Only numbers 7, 8 and 9 made it.

    Is Brexit Ranger or Apollo? And remember, it was Apollo eleven that finally made it. How many goes at Brexit are we allowed?
    I think I read that the switch to fire the LM engine to get them off the moon actually broke off and it was only by chance that a biro was the right size to fit in the hole left behind to improvise a switch that enabled it to fire. All of which was apparently very ironic because NASA had spent oodles getting pens to work in zero gravity so the astronauts could make notes - something the Russians did for no money because they hit on the hi tech idea of using pencils.

    Still work in the end it did.
    Norman Mailer's "A Fire on the Moon" is a great book
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    I wanted £10 at 20s from @rcs but he didn't get back to me/confirm.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2017



    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.

    As somebody who deals with university staff on a regular basis, there is a growing problem. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the US, but it is an issue. Furthermore, with the kids paying £9k, they now can't simply be told to stop being a twat as they are now "customers" and they expect customer service.

    Personally, I prefer to have the experts set the courses, not mouthy 18 year olds who know f##k all about f##k all or meddling MPs who know well you get the idea.

    And of course if these people really object to the contents of the course, they can always take their business elsewhere, be it in the UK or Europe or the US.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,779
    He is referring to the preferential trade deals that the European Union has with 60 third countries. Let the sheer stupidity of that assertion sink in. This is the European Union that we are leaving - that some people are proposing to have nothing to do with. Arrangements struck as a body of 28 nations, and which will continue anyway, can't "roll over" for the UK.

    The UK can propose new arrangements somewhat based on the EU ones to each of those 60 third countries. Those countries could choose to sign up quickly to those terms. My guess is a number of less important countries will do so. The others will take their time and will hold out for more advantageous terms for themselves. We won't be without third party agreements for ever, but it will take time and we are never likely to get back to arrangements that are as favourable as those we have now.
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    Mr. Eagles, are they offering odds on there being no by-election?

    No.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927

    Aren't we promised his views on Gandhi and Mandela at some point too?
    A half naked fakir and a terrorist?
    I'm not sure that would be the language a Labour MP of 2017 would be advised to use, irrespective of the status of those who might have done in the past.
    Well he's called the Spanish "dagos" and the Danes "pig shaggers", I rule nothing out when it comes to Mr O'Mara.
    He'd probably call him a "black c*nt."
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    edited October 2017
    A Hallam by-election would be interesting. I'll happily deliver for the yellow team to defeat O'Crapper (As I did at the GE)

    Hopefully the Hallam Tories will realise they can't win.

    And those are great odds on it happening. For Paddy's profits.
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    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    I’m going to have to disagree that that is ‘evidence’ of an anti-white sentiment. It seems that the lady in question simply wants the curriculum broadened to include writers that aren’t mainly/only white and male: obviously, we know that great literature has been written by those from many different ethnic and racial backgrounds. Given that many universities will look at the historical context of a text as well as any issues concerning race or gender it doesn’t seem unreasonable that those texts come from a board range of writers from many different backgrounds.

    I have large doubts that whites will ever not be the majority in this country. Many ethnic minorities will (well, they already are) go on to have interracial relationships, and their kids will go on to also have interracial relationships meaning that in the long term there’s less of them. This is already happening in some black communities (especially with West Indians).
    Well we're have to agree to disagree on the sentiment behind the calls for less white authors (it seems obvious to me that it was racially motivated).

    But now we have stuff like this on the national broadcaster regularly - calling white people the "most violent and oppressive force of nature on earth"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiO8Zxp_yGk

    If this was talking about any other race then it would be a hate crime let alone be allowed on the BBC.

    The non-white population is growing rapidly and the most of the growth is not through interracial relationships. In fact some communities actively don't mix with the local population and have a much higher birth rate.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    Are they letting anyone back the other side of that?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    TOPPING said:

    Anorak said:

    Sure we will. Because none of them have a clause relating to the EU or our membership of it. And it all happen in the nanosecond after Brexit because a 'businessman' on twitter says so.
    Who irritatingly styles himself as a younger son of a duke or marquess.
    It seems to be the norm now, on media at least, where the correct forms are either cumbersome or potentially ambiguous.
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    Sandpit said:

    Are they letting anyone back the other side of that?
    Alas no.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Sandpit said:

    Are they letting anyone back the other side of that?
    Pile on if they go 9-4 for the other side lol
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,028
    welshowl said:

    All of which was apparently very ironic because NASA had spent oodles getting pens to work in zero gravity so the astronauts could make notes - something the Russians did for no money because they hit on the hi tech idea of using pencils.

    This isn't true.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/

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    @nielh Yes, it does seem odd that there would be many courses about Brexit. At most, you are looking at politics related courses having modules on Brexit (perhaps what led to Brexit) but because Brexit still hasn’t actually happened it would be hard to actually discuss the impact of ‘Brexit’ in and of itself. I mean it’s so recent that you will hardly have English literature texts on Brexit, because well, it hasn’t happened yet. Even with history courses....they can’t teach what hasn’t yet happened.

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    There is not going to be a by-election in Sheffield Hallam...
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    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.

    As somebody who deals with university staff on a regular basis, there is a growing problem. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the US, but it is an issue. Furthermore, with the kids paying £9k, they now can't simply be told to stop being a twat as they are now "customers" and they expect customer service.

    Personally, I prefer to have the experts set the courses, not mouthy 18 year olds who know f##k all about f##k all or meddling MPs who know well you get the idea.

    And of course if these people really object to the contents of the course, they can always take their business elsewhere, be it in the UK or Europe or the US.
    Quite.

    A good summary.
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    There is not going to be a by-election in Sheffield Hallam...

    There should be though, I could be PB's man on the spot.

    The Daily Dore Digest.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420

    A few different discussions ongoing:

    Jared O'Whoops - man makes pratt of himself online shock. The Right On nutters in the party won't like him, but constituents will be more concerned about what he does for them. He'll be safe - he needs to come out and say "I wrote stupid things online after a few beers" and his support will go up not down

    The Late Late Brexit show. Not sure that David understands how business works. They can't afford to wait until the last minute. As TSE said earlier they will take no progress towards a deal this month as hard as possible Brexit and act accordingly. The government won't like those actions as they will be pulling of investment and sacking of workers, expect more accusations of "traitors" towards the CBI, business leaders etc from those sociopathic loons that infest the Tory Party

    My point was about the process (the original issue was whether an agreement was so late that parliament couldn't have a vote), not about the consequences for business. I agree that no deal by Dec 2018 will (and should) be taken as the trigger to prepare for Crash Brexit.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    edited October 2017

    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    I’m going to have to disagree that that is ‘evidence’ of an anti-white sentiment. It seems that the lady in question simply wants the curriculum broadened to include writers that aren’t mainly/only white and male: obviously, we know that great literature has long term there’s less of them. This is already happening in some black communities (especially with West Indians).
    Well we're have to agree to disagree on the sentiment behind the calls for less white authors (it seems obvious to me that it was racially motivated).

    But now we have stuff like this on the national broadcaster regularly - calling white people the "most violent and oppressive force of nature on earth"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiO8Zxp_yGk

    If this was talking about any other race then it would be a hate crime let alone be allowed on the BBC.

    The non-white population is growing rapidly and the most of the growth is not through interracial relationships. In fact some communities actively don't mix with the local population and have a much higher birth rate.
    My cousin is married to a guy of Indian origin and they have a young daughter and some of my other relatives are in mixed race relationships too. Latin America is probably close to majority mixed race. While it is possible whites will not be a majority in 50 years they will still likely be a plurality as the US is heading for.

    As for Cambridge I don't have a problem with more BME authors as long as there are still white authors on the curriculum.
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    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    Well we're have to agree to disagree on the sentiment behind the calls for less white authors (it seems obvious to me that it was racially motivated).

    But now we have stuff like this on the national broadcaster regularly - calling white people the "most violent and oppressive force of nature on earth"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiO8Zxp_yGk

    If this was talking about any other race then it would be a hate crime let alone be allowed on the BBC.

    The non-white population is growing rapidly and the most of the growth is not through interracial relationships. In fact some communities actively don't mix with the local population and have a much higher birth rate.
    Ah, now I don’t agree with Munroe Bergdorf. Tbh, she was given air time by ITV as well (on Good Morning Britain) so it’s not just a BBC thing.

    I remember reading that mixed race is the fastest growing racial group in the country, although that still might mean that most of the growth at the minute isn’t coming from those relationships, that could change.

    Obviously we need to change the situations of communities segregating themselves off and not mixing with the population at large.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Eagles, "South Yorkshire Police have been investigating reports of a strange man roaming the streets of Sheffield today. Knocking on doors, he asks homeowners if they've heard the good news of their lord and saviour George Osborne before blinding them with his dazzlingly offensive shirt."
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    Mr. Eagles, "South Yorkshire Police have been investigating reports of a strange man roaming the streets of Sheffield today. Knocking on doors, he asks homeowners if they've heard the good news of their lord and saviour George Osborne before blinding them with his dazzlingly offensive shirt."

    I reckon if George Osborne was the Tory candidate in Sheffield Hallam it'd be Con gain.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131

    A few different discussions ongoing:

    Jared O'Whoops - man makes pratt of himself online shock. The Right On nutters in the party won't like him, but constituents will be more concerned about what he does for them. He'll be safe - he needs to come out and say "I wrote stupid things online after a few beers" and his support will go up not down

    The Late Late Brexit show. Not sure that David understands how business works. They can't afford to wait until the last minute. As TSE said earlier they will take no progress towards a deal this month as hard as possible Brexit and act accordingly. The government won't like those actions as they will be pulling of investment and sacking of workers, expect more accusations of "traitors" towards the CBI, business leaders etc from those sociopathic loons that infest the Tory Party

    My point was about the process (the original issue was whether an agreement was so late that parliament couldn't have a vote), not about the consequences for business. I agree that no deal by Dec 2018 will (and should) be taken as the trigger to prepare for Crash Brexit.
    There will almost certainly be no deal by Dec 2018 given it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA, what there may be is agreement for a transition period by Dec 2018 while FTA negotiations continue.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    The non-white population is growing rapidly and the most of the growth is not through interracial relationships. In fact some communities actively don't mix with the local population and have a much higher birth rate.

    White or black or brown... why does it matter?

    Forget skin colour - people are people. We all bleed red blood, we all eat food and we all pee when we get up in the morning and then we all get dressed for the day. We all go to work and we all try and keep warm, dry and our families fed.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    A good PMQs from both Jezza and Tezza.

    Tezza harking back a bit too much to Labour's past policies. That was years ago.

    But quite edifying.
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    Guido Fawkes seems to be in control of what happens in parliament at present.

    Why not just cut out a few steps and make him Prime Minister now?
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    First PMQ since holidays - it just gets worse and worse - dreadful
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Eagles, it'd be very entertaining.

    Mr. Topping, long time ago, but Brown spent his last few PMQs bewailing Thatcher.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    Did Corbyn just stand up at the start of his questions and make a Tracey Ullman joke?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    Even at the time, rcs1000's offer of 20/1 was at the time quite generous. Unfortunately, something urgent came up and I wasn't able to reply. I'd have had a tenner if I'd been able to. Obviously, given what's happened since, it'd be bite-your-hand-off.

    However, 1/3 is far far worse the other way, not least because rcs gave us through to some point in 2018, not just to the end of the year (even if O'Mara resigned today, there's a good chance the by-election wouldn't be this year). I reckon the odds ought to be around 5/1 on him going before 30 June 2018.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    First PMQ since holidays - it just gets worse and worse - dreadful

    Disagree; it's a good exchange.
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    TOPPING said:

    First PMQ since holidays - it just gets worse and worse - dreadful

    Disagree; it's a good exchange.
    Agree - it did get better but the noise is dreadful.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mrs C, it matters when some people are calling for ethnic quotas, or think there are too many whites in the FA, Bank of England, or BBC, or when a judge gets criticised by buffoons partly on the grounds that he's white.

    You're right that race shouldn't matter. But identity politics and the oafs who believe in it means that it does to an increasing extent.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Dura_Ace said:

    welshowl said:

    All of which was apparently very ironic because NASA had spent oodles getting pens to work in zero gravity so the astronauts could make notes - something the Russians did for no money because they hit on the hi tech idea of using pencils.

    This isn't true.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/

    I stand corrected on the pencils.

    There are several sources out there quoting Aldrin on the switch though (just checked again - but I'm useless at linking) - which is quite a thought.

    Wonder if they took a gun up there or cyanide just in case?
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited October 2017



    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.

    As somebody who deals with university staff on a regular basis, there is a growing problem. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the US, but it is an issue. Furthermore, with the kids paying £9k, they now can't simply be told to stop being a twat as they are now "customers" and they expect customer service.

    Personally, I prefer to have the experts set the courses, not mouthy 18 year olds who know f##k all about f##k all or meddling MPs who know well you get the idea.

    And of course if these people really object to the contents of the course, they can always take their business elsewhere, be it in the UK or Europe or the US.
    As someone who was a student relatively recently, I don’t agree. I don’t really see anything wrong with students wanting to have a say in what they are taught. As you say, they pay 9k so they should be getting their money’s worth. Sometimes I don’t always agree with the way they go about it, but that doesn’t change my belief that they should be able to have a say. If they don’t like what is taught, they shouldn’t have to automatically take their business aboard - if they really believe there’s an issue with the representation of BME authors on courses, they should be able to challenge that. I see nothing wrong with it. Just because someone is an expert doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have their view on literature and what the curriculum should be challenged.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    Nigelb said:

    For all those supporting Heaton-Harris yesterday... his own party has left him twisting in the wind:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41747035

    People on here were supporting him? Astonishing. It's obvious what happened: Heaton-Harris got carried away with the whole 'Crush the Saboteurs', 'Will of the People' stuff and tried to make a name for himself as a Brexit boot boy. Academia has been a bogeyman of the populist Right for some time, so it's obvious why he chose that as his target. What a bullying yobbo.
    There are party loyalists on here who will promote almost anything their party says no matter how outrageous or absurd.

    I half-believe that if a party introduced a policy that all its supporters should be shot, the loyalists on here would promote it with vigour....
    The sacrifice will inspire the nation to greatness!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Kids won't be paying anywhere near 9k a year if the repayment threshold gets hiked to £25k + inflation.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited October 2017



    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.

    As somebody who deals with university staff on a regular basis, there is a growing problem. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the US, but it is an issue. Furthermore, with the kids paying £9k, they now can't simply be told to stop being a twat as they are now "customers" and they expect customer service.

    Personally, I prefer to have the experts set the courses, not mouthy 18 year olds who know f##k all about f##k all or meddling MPs who know well you get the idea.

    And of course if these people really object to the contents of the course, they can always take their business elsewhere, be it in the UK or Europe or the US.
    As someone who was a student relatively recently, I don’t agree. I don’t really see anything wrong with students wanting to have a say in what they are taught. As you say, they pay 9k so they should be getting their money’s worth. Sometimes I don’t always agree with the way they go about it, but that doesn’t change my belief that they should be able to have a say. If they don’t like what is taught, they shouldn’t have to automatically take their business aboard - if they really believe there’s an issue with the representation of BME authors on courses, they should be able to challenge that. I see nothing wrong with it. Just because someone is an expert doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have their view on literature and what the curriculum should be challenged.
    Challenged by somebody who knows that they are talking about.

    And lots of these challenges aren't based upon quality of alternative works for instance, they immediately invoke terms such as institutional racism. People arguing about dropping Plato and Descartes from Philosophy courses based upon the race of those individuals are just plain bonkers...no actually it is just plain racism.
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    Re the last thread: and the white privilege quote about maths: as if universities at large really believe what the person in that article stated. I also doubt there are really that many circles where people believe that maths and other subjects are part of some conspiracy to oppress people. As those channels on YouTube obsessed with so called SJWs have found: if you go looking for idiots, you will find them.

    Agreed that it is small fry stuff at the moment. However this anti-white sentiment is growing, here's another similar story:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/

    In the future when whites are no longer a majority and don't hold such a large proportion of power in this country who knows how far these sentiments may go. You can look at South Africa and Zimbabwe to see how things can pan out.
    Well we're have to agree to disagree on the sentiment behind the calls for less white authors (it seems obvious to me that it was racially motivated).

    But now we have stuff like this on the national broadcaster regularly - calling white people the "most violent and oppressive force of nature on earth"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiO8Zxp_yGk

    If this was talking about any other race then it would be a hate crime let alone be allowed on the BBC.

    The non-white population is growing rapidly and the most of the growth is not through interracial relationships. In fact some communities actively don't mix with the local population and have a much higher birth rate.
    Ah, now I don’t agree with Munroe Bergdorf. Tbh, she was given air time by ITV as well (on Good Morning Britain) so it’s not just a BBC thing.

    I remember reading that mixed race is the fastest growing racial group in the country, although that still might mean that most of the growth at the minute isn’t coming from those relationships, that could change.

    Obviously we need to change the situations of communities segregating themselves off and not mixing with the population at large.
    Yes it's not just the BBC. My point was if the races were reversed it would probably be a police matter, but we seem to be developing a two-tier justice system when it comes to these things.

    Anyway I agree about segregation, but I can't see how anyone could possibly come up with a palatable solution to that (or for a politician to even discuss the issue).
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    Pulpstar said:

    Kids won't be paying anywhere near 9k a year if the repayment threshold gets hiked to £25k + inflation.

    Well that is already the reality for many, but of course that isn't what the public think is the case.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,604



    Jared O'Whoops - man makes pratt of himself online shock. The Right On nutters in the party won't like him, but constituents will be more concerned about what he does for them. He'll be safe - he needs to come out and say "I wrote stupid things online after a few beers" and his support will go up not down

    No, he's exposed himself to his constituents as a thoroughly nasty piece of work and the extreme nature of those comments are such that it should take more than a politically expedient apology now to atone for them.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991



    Did I say O'Mara's comments were Guido Fawkes' fault? No. I said these comments are the norm for a great lot of this country, and that Guido's website has played a key role in dragging this kind of vile culture into political commentary (e.g. http://www.francisbeckett.co.uk/latest-blog/5-general/118-why-right-wing-internet-thugs-threaten-our-freedom).

    Penny quotes comments about her on Staines’s site. "Perhaps Sharia might be a good thing after all, if Ms Penny was not allowed out without a member of her Family and we did not have to look at her face, also we could stone her to death...” "Call me old fashioned bt this young lady shouid [sic] be whipped through the streets of London before being made to suck Ken Livingstones cock as people throw shit at the pair of them." She asked for these to be taken down and the men who run the site told her to get a sense of humour.

    Guido has allowed and encouraged a lot worse from his supporters. He's not part of the cure 'shining a light' on anything, but part of the disease.

    You went BTL

    Don't go BTL

    Always good advice.

    Frankly, on O’Mara, I’ve said as bad or worse than much of it as part of deliberately offensive humour, though rarely online (if going full racist or sexist joke for effect, best make really really sure the people receiving it are on board), and I don’t think his being a cock is worthy of resignation, but nor is Guido going after him symptomatic of much. His own comments section is foul, I am sure (I think I recall him making some changes a year or so back to curtail it somewhat), but if someone is in a position of authority and they posture about their own righteousness, they are going to be targets. O’Mara himself unnecessarily made things more complicated than he needed to by suggesting a Tory is unlikely to be able to change and thus should probably resign over such things, which added a level of self justifying nonsense to the proceedings.
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    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.

    As somebody who deals with university staff on a regular basis, there is a growing problem. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the US, but it is an issue. Furthermore, with the kids paying £9k, they now can't simply be told to stop being a twat as they are now "customers" and they expect customer service.

    Personally, I prefer to have the experts set the courses, not mouthy 18 year olds who know f##k all about f##k all or meddling MPs who know well you get the idea.

    And of course if these people really object to the contents of the course, they can always take their business elsewhere, be it in the UK or Europe or the US.
    As someone who was a student relatively recently, I don’t agree. I don’t really see anything wrong with students wanting to have a say in what they are taught. As you say, they pay 9k so they should be getting their money’s worth. Sometimes I don’t always agree with the way they go about it, but that doesn’t change my belief that they should be able to have a say. If they don’t like what is taught, they shouldn’t have to automatically take their business aboard - if they really believe there’s an issue with the representation of BME authors on courses, they should be able to challenge that. I see nothing wrong with it. Just because someone is an expert doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have their view on literature and what the curriculum should be challenged.
    As someone who is involved on a staff-student consultative committee and has to do a presentation once a year explaining what changes have been made to the courses and why ...

    Christ.

    Anyway, yes, I do this for my day job. Yes, the students should have a say. Yes, they do have a say, but, here at least, its done within a framework and a process.

    I do think universities need to do more to advertise what their course contains and its fundamental telos. You don't apply to Oxford for the hugs. You apply to where I am now for applied science and strong links to industry.

    Decolonising the chemistry curriculum, though? Give me strength.
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    The non-white population is growing rapidly and the most of the growth is not through interracial relationships. In fact some communities actively don't mix with the local population and have a much higher birth rate.

    White or black or brown... why does it matter?

    Forget skin colour - people are people. We all bleed red blood, we all eat food and we all pee when we get up in the morning and then we all get dressed for the day. We all go to work and we all try and keep warm, dry and our families fed.
    Well apparently it does since too many white authors is a bad thing and some of them need to be replaced with non-whites to be more acceptable.
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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Pulpstar said:

    Kids won't be paying anywhere near 9k a year if the repayment threshold gets hiked to £25k + inflation.

    But the repayment threshold is not linked in any way to the amount of the fee. It's the income level above which repayments kick in.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    HYUFD said:

    A few different discussions ongoing:

    Jared O'Whoops - man makes pratt of himself online shock. The Right On nutters in the party won't like him, but constituents will be more concerned about what he does for them. He'll be safe - he needs to come out and say "I wrote stupid things online after a few beers" and his support will go up not down

    The Late Late Brexit show. Not sure that David understands how business works. They can't afford to wait until the last minute. As TSE said earlier they will take no progress towards a deal this month as hard as possible Brexit and act accordingly. The government won't like those actions as they will be pulling of investment and sacking of workers, expect more accusations of "traitors" towards the CBI, business leaders etc from those sociopathic loons that infest the Tory Party

    My point was about the process (the original issue was whether an agreement was so late that parliament couldn't have a vote), not about the consequences for business. I agree that no deal by Dec 2018 will (and should) be taken as the trigger to prepare for Crash Brexit.
    There will almost certainly be no deal by Dec 2018 given it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA, what there may be is agreement for a transition period by Dec 2018 while FTA negotiations continue.
    That would be a deal under the terms of A50.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Anyway, I must be off.

    Also, Mr. kl4, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots.

    Also also, Mr. Sulphate, a few months ago I had some demented fools attacking me on Twitter for suggesting authors should be judged by quality not the demography of the author. Apparently, that stance was too pro-male and pro-white.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991



    I’ve just gone an quickly read about it now (wasn’t aware of was going on at the time). Think they were arguing against European authors being ‘unquestionable’ when it comes to being on courses and wanted to create an alternative curriculum in response to that. I don’t agree with literally arguing against an author purely because of their race. Given that they are a university which centres on African and Oriental studies I get why they’d question the centring of curriculums on white European authors, but I don’t agree with their way of approaching it.

    As somebody who deals with university staff on a regular basis, there is a growing problem. It isn't anywhere near as bad as the US, but it is an issue. Furthermore, with the kids paying £9k, they now can't simply be told to stop being a twat as they are now "customers" and they expect customer service.

    Personally, I prefer to have the experts set the courses, not mouthy 18 year olds who know f##k all about f##k all or meddling MPs who know well you get the idea.

    And of course if these people really object to the contents of the course, they can always take their business elsewhere, be it in the UK or Europe or the US.
    As someone who was a student relatively recently, I don’t agree. I don’t really see anything wrong with students wanting to have a say in what they are taught. As you say, they pay 9k so they should be getting their money’s worth. Sometimes I don’t always agree with the way they go about it, but that doesn’t change my belief that they should be able to have a say. If they don’t like what is taught, they shouldn’t have to automatically take their business aboard - if they really believe there’s an issue with the representation of BME authors on courses, they should be able to challenge that. I see nothing wrong with it. Just because someone is an expert doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have their view on literature and what the curriculum should be challenged.
    Challenged by somebody who knows that they are talking about
    That is the key. I'm a firm believer of institutions needing to justify themselves and what they do, but the basis of the challenge must be reasonable too of course. Racial bias might play into that, I imagine it depends, but I am wary of complaints which form part of a crusading topic, since the motive is nor always going to be suitably focused on the specific circumstance and thus rationale of the present situation.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927

    Mr. Eagles, "South Yorkshire Police have been investigating reports of a strange man roaming the streets of Sheffield today. Knocking on doors, he asks homeowners if they've heard the good news of their lord and saviour George Osborne before blinding them with his dazzlingly offensive shirt."

    I reckon if George Osborne was the Tory candidate in Sheffield Hallam it'd be Con gain.
    If there were a by-election in Sheffield Hallam, it would be an interesting one.
This discussion has been closed.