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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn was far less a driver of the GE2017 LAB vote than many

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  • kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,823
    DavidL said:
    It's written by Wolfgang Munchau who's almost as disappointed by the trajectory of Brexit as the Brexiteers themselves and is indulging in wishful thinking.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    A different view in the FT of all places: http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/merkel’s-costly-coalition-offers-may-a-route-to-brexit/ar-AAtRFx0?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

    It claims Merkel cannot afford a hard Brexit given the money that she is going to have to throw at her Coalition partners. It also contains this: "In 2016, Germany ran a trade surplus with the UK of €50.4bn — 1.6 per cent of German gross domestic product — the single-largest bilateral trade surplus with any country."

    I'm not saying the author is right but that is quite a startling figure.

    Edit, it is a figure which of course we should all be deeply ashamed of.

    I would be, if I knew of any way that it could be significantly changed.
    I decided a while ago that I have bought my last Audi. We simply cannot go on with trade deficits like this. The current set up inside the Single Market is seriously impoverishing our country and our children. I find it bizarre that those who go on and on about the possible disruption of our trade that might occur in the absence of a deal do not acknowledge this.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Does every member of the WTO including Russia have to agree to the UK becoming an Independent member ?

    We have been a member since the formation of the WTO. But as a member of the EU we have ceded our voting rights to them. Leaving the EU does not change our position as a member but it does return our voting rights to us.
    Thanks Richard and ydoethur much appreciated not an area , I am familiar with.So in essence just a procedural change if required.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn really nailed it today in HoC. Whatever the politics, he has really grown into the job. A long way from his initial PMQs.

    Quite so. I was initially opposed to him - I didn't vote for him for leader and I spoke in favour or the no-confidence at my CLP in July 2016 - but there is no doubt that he has stuck a chord with many people. The election result means that he is there for the forseeable future and the more the Tories f*ck things up the more secure he becomes. He may not be my ideal leader but faced with a choice between him and national suicide with the Tories it is no contest. And I think many people in Labour feel the same way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Seems odd after he held on in 2015, but I guess they loved the manifesto/Corbyn enough to make up for it. Or they like the way the guy acts of course.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited October 2017

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    This is a sensible comment on it, I thought;

    Things that can both be true:
    Jared O'Mara is a sexist.
    Guido is a sexist.
    But only one is on the Women's & Equalities Select Committee.

    — KateMaltby (@KateMaltby) October 23, 2017
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting comment from Juncker:
    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/922477621522370561

    As we move into the crisis phase of the negotiations, expect to see more comments from European politicians pointing the finger squarely at the Eurosceptics for getting the UK into this mess.

    So he has presumably not read that research linked to the other day explaining how we discount information or facts that don't fit our world view.
    There is actually a really interesting Sam Harris podcast from a couple of weeks ago with Cass R. Sunstein, talking about some recent research that shows putting people of similar but differing opinions leads to the group tending to the most extreme position and also that they will reject any facts that doesn't fit the group think.
    Sunstein co-wrote Nudge with Thaler, the new Nobel Laureate.

    If this interests you, try Sunstein's book "Wiser: Getting Beyond Groupthink to Make Groups Smarter" (very readable) and his treatise on legislation (with Kuran) 'Availability Cascades and Risk Regulation' (not so much).

    Interestingly, he is the most cited legal scholar in the US and served in the Obama Adminstration
    He has a new book coming titled #Republic : divided democracy in the age of social media, which interestingly was commissioned before Trump.
    Thanks. I'll check it out. If you haven't read "Wiser", do. It really goes into this polarizing issue.
    Thanks...that is my winter vacation reading sorted....I am also going to re-read Thinking Fast and Slow.
    That's on the bookshelf waiting for its slot. If you need one more for your list, try The Story Factor by Annette Simmons. Very well written (as it should be, given the title) and more about neuroscience, evolution and cognition than the title would suggest.

    She goes less into the dynamics of how the divide is created, and more into how to build bridges to span, heal and unify (by story listening, and story telling, as the title would imply). In reality, it is a book about how to influence others.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866

    Yorkcity said:

    Does every member of the WTO including Russia have to agree to the UK becoming an Independent member ?

    We have been a member since the formation of the WTO. But as a member of the EU we have ceded our voting rights to them. Leaving the EU does not change our position as a member but it does return our voting rights to us.
    It's actually a little more complex than that, as the GATT -> WTO transition was unclear on a number of points. However, the reality is that Britain becoming a full member in its own right is largely a formality.
  • kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Shitty replacements are all the rage.

    Cf replacing David Cameron with the pound shop Gordon Brown and Len Goodman with Shirley Ballas
  • The other myth was that it was the corbyn led to rise of the yuff vote and that is what won it for labour. However they only added about 3% to labour score, but it was the collapse of the Tory lead amongst the middle aged that did for the Tory majority.

    The likes of the Tory threats to nick your house if you go gaga killed them.

    Interesting how some PB tories see paying for your own social care as the government some how 'nicking' your house. What's the alternative FU?
    I don't say that. That is how it was portrayed in the media and was the general take away most people had from what the policy alleged was.

    And for about the billion-th time, I am not a Tory. I voted for the Tories for the very first time at a GE this year purely as an anti-Corbyn vote.
    Being a PB Tory is bugger all to do with how you vote.
    For the billionth time.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn really nailed it today in HoC. Whatever the politics, he has really grown into the job. A long way from his initial PMQs.

    Quite so. I was initially opposed to him - I didn't vote for him for leader and I spoke in favour or the no-confidence at my CLP in July 2016 - but there is no doubt that he has stuck a chord with many people. The election result means that he is there for the forseeable future and the more the Tories f*ck things up the more secure he becomes. He may not be my ideal leader but faced with a choice between him and national suicide with the Tories it is no contest. And I think many people in Labour feel the same way.
    There are a large number of people who have a very different view of Corbyn and McDonnell than I have. Nevertheless I really believe that they are highly comittted socialists infliuenced by Marxism. Their nerve may not hold but I believe that they see forming a government as a once in a life time opportunity to achieve a one-way socialist transformation of society in an economically advanced country. In their view this has never occured before so all the counter exampes like Venezuela or Russia are irrelevant to them. This also explain why, although highly moral in overall purpose, they are amoral insuch matters as supporting anti-Western forces and making misleading commitments about student loans.

    Whether we would experience a semi-comic farce or a terrible tragedy would epend on the political and parliamentary forces when/if they got power. What on earth are the Labour Democratic Socialists doing??
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2017
    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Seems odd after he held on in 2015, but I guess they loved the manifesto/Corbyn enough to make up for it. Or they like the way the guy acts of course.
    If even half of what I have just found here is true (not a given) this man really isn't fit to be an MP:

    https://theharlequinpub.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/openletter.pdf

    If Labour supports or even condones actions like that - and actually it's less extreme than some of Momentum's increasingly vicious threats - I think it says a lot about them, and not in a good way.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    edited October 2017
    SeanT said:

    I’ve just got back to Addis Ababa, from five days in the Danakil Depression, alias the “cruellest place on earth”

    *Obvious joke*

    Other than a youtube comment section

    *End obvious joke

    Sounds incredible. I imagine staring at raw and fiery chaos was helpful in developing political insights for the modern age.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    SeanT said:

    I’ve just got back to Addis Ababa, from five days in the Danakil Depression, alias the “cruellest place on earth”

    If anyone is interested I have pics and vids on Twitter. It really was one of the greatest and most gruelling travel experiences of my entire life. I recommend anyone, everyone, to go. Just mind blowing. It’s not even that expensive. You could do the whole thing for 1200 quid including flights: and see the face of God. Or the Devil.

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/922495238220013570

    Sean

    Never made it to Ethiopia, but did make it to Lac Abbe in Dibouti during my Yemen years: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/ac/75/eaac759694d3b864cf29780e9dc757d8.jpg
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    SeanT said:

    I’ve just got back to Addis Ababa, from five days in the Danakil Depression, alias the “cruellest place on earth”

    If anyone is interested I have pics and vids on Twitter. It really was one of the greatest and most gruelling travel experiences of my entire life. I recommend anyone, everyone, to go. Just mind blowing. It’s not even that expensive. You could do the whole thing for 1200 quid including flights: and see the face of God. Or the Devil.

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/922495238220013570

    Hmm...not seeing many sun beds there, not even with German towels on them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    And then we saw them digging the salt. By hand. As they have done since the pharaohs. In 40-55C heat.

    A truly sobering thing to think about. The grand total of human progress and development, but some things remaining so similar.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Surely they are in Sunday School?

    Or does the stat include Sunday School as well as main service?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn really nailed it today in HoC. Whatever the politics, he has really grown into the job. A long way from his initial PMQs.

    Quite so. I was initially opposed to him - I didn't vote for him for leader and I spoke in favour or the no-confidence at my CLP in July 2016 - but there is no doubt that he has stuck a chord with many people. The election result means that he is there for the forseeable future and the more the Tories f*ck things up the more secure he becomes. He may not be my ideal leader but faced with a choice between him and national suicide with the Tories it is no contest. And I think many people in Labour feel the same way.
    There are a large number of people who have a very different view of Corbyn and McDonnell than I have. Nevertheless I really believe that they are highly comittted socialists infliuenced by Marxism. Their nerve may not hold but I believe that they see forming a government as a once in a life time opportunity to achieve a one-way socialist transformation of society in an economically advanced country. In their view this has never occured before so all the counter exampes like Venezuela or Russia are irrelevant to them. This also explain why, although highly moral in overall purpose, they are amoral insuch matters as supporting anti-Western forces and making misleading commitments about student loans.

    Whether we would experience a semi-comic farce or a terrible tragedy would epend on the political and parliamentary forces when/if they got power. What on earth are the Labour Democratic Socialists doing??
    The problem is that the Tories have moved into a position which is leading the country straight over the Brexit cliff. This course is far more extreme and self-destructive than anything Corbyn is likely to do. And we have to choose between the Tories and Corbyn because currently they are the only available alternatives. Corbyn will be constrained by the likely small size of his majority, if he gets one, the views of Labour MPs etc etc. He is not about to become all-powerful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811

    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn really nailed it today in HoC. Whatever the politics, he has really grown into the job. A long way from his initial PMQs.

    Quite so. I was initially opposed to him - I didn't vote for him for leader and I spoke in favour or the no-confidence at my CLP in July 2016 - but there is no doubt that he has stuck a chord with many people. The election result means that he is there for the forseeable future and the more the Tories f*ck things up the more secure he becomes. He may not be my ideal leader but faced with a choice between him and national suicide with the Tories it is no contest. And I think many people in Labour feel the same way.
    There are a large number of people who have a very different view of Corbyn and McDonnell than I have. Nevertheless I really believe that they are highly comittted socialists infliuenced by Marxism. Their nerve may not hold but I believe that they see forming a government as a once in a life time opportunity to achieve a one-way socialist transformation of society in an economically advanced country. In their view this has never occured before so all the counter exampes like Venezuela or Russia are irrelevant to them. This also explain why, although highly moral in overall purpose, they are amoral insuch matters as supporting anti-Western forces and making misleading commitments about student loans.

    Whether we would experience a semi-comic farce or a terrible tragedy would epend on the political and parliamentary forces when/if they got power. What on earth are the Labour Democratic Socialists doing??
    The problem is that the Tories have moved into a position which is leading the country straight over the Brexit cliff. This course is far more extreme and self-destructive than anything Corbyn is likely to do.
    Isn't Corbyn also wanting to take us straight over the Brexit cliff?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OT Ladbrokes and Corals have dropped the pricewise guarantee, so that's another reason for not having allowed the merger.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    edited October 2017
    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited October 2017

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Surely they are in Sunday School?

    Or does the stat include Sunday School as well as main service?
    What Sunday School? Cannock has one but very few others of my personal acquaintance do.

    Edit - and in Cannock at least they come back in during Holy Communion.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    SeanT said:

    MTimT said:

    SeanT said:

    I’ve just got back to Addis Ababa, from five days in the Danakil Depression, alias the “cruellest place on earth”

    If anyone is interested I have pics and vids on Twitter. It really was one of the greatest and most gruelling travel experiences of my entire life. I recommend anyone, everyone, to go. Just mind blowing. It’s not even that expensive. You could do the whole thing for 1200 quid including flights: and see the face of God. Or the Devil.

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/922495238220013570

    Sean

    Never made it to Ethiopia, but did make it to Lac Abbe in Dibouti during my Yemen years: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/ac/75/eaac759694d3b864cf29780e9dc757d8.jpg
    Djibouti is seen as bad bad bad in Ethiopia. Everything is smuggled to and from there, khat, whisky, women, the whole shebang.
    Djibouti town was an extraordinary contrast to Sana'a. I stayed with our honorary consul when visiting, who lived in an apartment above the bank on the main square.

    Loud drunken ribaldry until the morning every night, with French restaurants, nightclubs and bars fit for all the navies and marine corps in the world, not to mention the Foreign Legion. The whiskey bar was the type where the entrance fee is to purchase a full bottle at an exorbitant price, but your name is then written on the bottle and it is placed behind the bar. You have free entry into the club until such time as you have emptied your bottle when, of course, you simply purchase another.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017
    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I'm not religious but I do love churches. Not only are they places of peace and reflection they are also a really important part of our heritage. In Scotland a depressing number of former places of worship are now public houses. Which are themselves an endangered species...

    There was (for once) an interesting piece on Start the Week this morning about the importance of religion in creating a concept of society and co-operation in larger groups. It was alleged that modern Britain is further down the path of not having this than almost any other society and the consequences were uncertain.

    Well, it made a change from Brexit.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Does every member of the WTO including Russia have to agree to the UK becoming an Independent member ?

    We have been a member since the formation of the WTO. But as a member of the EU we have ceded our voting rights to them. Leaving the EU does not change our position as a member but it does return our voting rights to us.
    It's actually a little more complex than that, as the GATT -> WTO transition was unclear on a number of points. However, the reality is that Britain becoming a full member in its own right is largely a formality.
    Well the WTO itself lists the UK as a member. The EU is also a separate member in its own right.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    What the thread header misses is that without Corbyn the manifesto would have been some weak, tory-lite waffle... Corbyn needs to get some credit for the manifesto-policies 28% imo.

    I think that's correct. The Tories originally thought the manifesto was electoral suicide a la 1983, and gave it lots and lots of publicity. People thought "that doesn't sound bad, actually, even if it's not all practical, I like the direction", then they heard Corbyn being level-headed and calm and thought "and he doesn't sound that scary". Only a minority thought "he sounds wonderful", but the combined effect was positive and refreshing.

    NorthStoke is entitled to his views, of course, but they don't correspond to the Corbyn and McDonnell who I know personally. And even if he was right, the people who would make up a Labour majority would not vote through the sort of wild experiments that NorthStoke fears. I see the problem being more in the opposite direction: real life is difficult, and after a while people might feel that a Corbyn government wasn't as different as they'd have liked.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited October 2017
    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Nah, move it all to Sheffield. Use a marquee like they do once a year on the Isle of Man if there isn't a big enough building.

    Force the buggers to realise there is life outside London.

    (This is a joke, btw, although I can see merits in moving the capital north. I do hope they start a major renovation soon.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    edited October 2017
    DavidL said:


    There was (for once) an interesting piece on Start the Week this morning about the importance of religion in creating a concept of society and co-operation in larger groups. It was alleged that modern Britain is further down the path of not having this than almost any other society and the consequences were uncertain.

    As a non religious person myself it is impossible to deny its importance, historically, in the concept of society and co-operation, it is a way of widening one's own concept of their tribe in a way which has probably not been matched yet. Though I don't know about us being further down that path than almost any other society, there have to be others even more irreligious.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    It's not even 200 years old, it can be salvaged. And I don't want to have to change the logo of HP sauce.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:


    There was (for once) an interesting piece on Start the Week this morning about the importance of religion in creating a concept of society and co-operation in larger groups. It was alleged that modern Britain is further down the path of not having this than almost any other society and the consequences were uncertain.

    As a non religious person myself it is impossible to deny its importance, historically, in the concept of society and co-operation, it is a way of widening one's own concept of their tribe in a way which has probably not been matched yet. Though I don't know about us being further down that path than almost any other society, there have to be others even more irreligious.
    It was not so much that we are irreligious, it was more that we did not have a religion or ceremonies that bound us together with a common purpose. I am not completely convinced he was right, we seem to do ceremonies better than most, but it was interesting.
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
    Raze Parliament.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866

    rcs1000 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Does every member of the WTO including Russia have to agree to the UK becoming an Independent member ?

    We have been a member since the formation of the WTO. But as a member of the EU we have ceded our voting rights to them. Leaving the EU does not change our position as a member but it does return our voting rights to us.
    It's actually a little more complex than that, as the GATT -> WTO transition was unclear on a number of points. However, the reality is that Britain becoming a full member in its own right is largely a formality.
    Well the WTO itself lists the UK as a member. The EU is also a separate member in its own right.
    The WTO defines itself in its treaties as the signatories of the GATT treaties. The UK was a signatory to the original 1947 treaty establishing GATT, but was not a signatory to the last GATT treaty (because it was signed by the EU).

    The WTO treaty is ambiguous about which GATT treaties constitute membership. You could theoretically take the view that only the signatories of the the most recent WTO treaty is a member.

    However, from a practical perspective, I think it's an irrelevancy. The UK will be a full member of the WTO from the date of Brexit, because it is no-ones interests to make a fuss. And
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited October 2017

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
    Raze Parliament.
    Okay...

    Now about this avatar of yours - when are you changing it back to Cromwell?

    Edit - so it's Charles instead - but the wrong Charles. I don't know, you had a choice of two who sacked Parliament and yet you pick the third or fourth if you count Charles III in exile.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,091
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    This is a sensible comment on it, I thought;

    Things that can both be true:
    Jared O'Mara is a sexist.
    Guido is a sexist.
    But only one is on the Women's & Equalities Select Committee.

    — KateMaltby (@KateMaltby) October 23, 2017
    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    The Tories have to play it long, until probably late 2021 at the earliest and for them its always been about a decent Brexit outcome.

    Alongside that, they need to get good at politics' again. Without the Cameron/Osborne political control over messaging, they are all over the place at the moment, without a clear narrative. May is pretty clueless at this stuff and needs to get some of the sharp 2015 & 17 intake to sort it out for her. a bit like Merkel, who's personally pretty dull, but has let others create the Mutti persona. (Not that I see May being reinvented over the next few years).

    The Corbyn mob at the top of Labour have got a decent act together around the many, not the few narrative, although it will only take few more Ian Lavery type stories to put that at risk
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited October 2017
    slade said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    This is a sensible comment on it, I thought;

    Things that can both be true:
    Jared O'Mara is a sexist.
    Guido is a sexist.
    But only one is on the Women's & Equalities Select Committee.— KateMaltby (@KateMaltby) October 23, 2017
    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!
    He has denied that story. Apparently it was borrowed from his father:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/18/jared-omara-labour-mp-sheffield-hallam-defeated-nick-clegg
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
    Raze Parliament.
    Okay...

    Now about this avatar of yours - when are you changing it back to Cromwell?
    Cromwell was concerned about the tyranny of perpetual parliaments IIRC.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
    Raze Parliament.
    Okay...

    Now about this avatar of yours - when are you changing it back to Cromwell?
    I’ve just changed it to someone who will do more for the republican cause than Cromwell ever did.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,866
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Seems odd after he held on in 2015, but I guess they loved the manifesto/Corbyn enough to make up for it. Or they like the way the guy acts of course.
    If even half of what I have just found here is true (not a given) this man really isn't fit to be an MP:

    https://theharlequinpub.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/openletter.pdf

    If Labour supports or even condones actions like that - and actually it's less extreme than some of Momentum's increasingly vicious threats - I think it says a lot about them, and not in a good way.
    Now I know I'm only reading one side of the story, but WTF is Jared doing as an MP?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:


    There was (for once) an interesting piece on Start the Week this morning about the importance of religion in creating a concept of society and co-operation in larger groups. It was alleged that modern Britain is further down the path of not having this than almost any other society and the consequences were uncertain.

    As a non religious person myself it is impossible to deny its importance, historically, in the concept of society and co-operation, it is a way of widening one's own concept of their tribe in a way which has probably not been matched yet. Though I don't know about us being further down that path than almost any other society, there have to be others even more irreligious.
    I think the importance of religion in the development of society is mis-applied. There are absolutely fundamental elements of human nature, the evolution of which were essential to human survival and pre-date religion. Religion is an expression of these aspects of human nature, rather than their cause.

    They all arise from us being social creatures - belonging, purpose greater than self, reciprocity in relations (hence the Golden Rule), sense-making and learning through narrative, social knowledge (i.e. the skills required for survival exceeding what one person could know or do, and hence mutual dependency), and so on. All these issues have been co-opted and organized (often very effectively) by religion. But none of them arose because of religion. They arose because of natural selection.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited October 2017
    slade said:


    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!

    Where else in Sheffield can you buy a suit at half past midnight?
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    slade said:


    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!

    Where else in Sheffield can you buy a suit at half past midnight?
    Asda on the Handsworth/Parkway roundabout.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    edited October 2017

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
    Raze Parliament.
    Okay...

    Now about this avatar of yours - when are you changing it back to Cromwell?
    I’ve just changed it to someone who will do more for the republican cause than Cromwell ever did.
    Since as I recall Cromwell seized power in a coup, ruled as a military dictator for five years and made his supporters so uneasy with his actions they actually begged him to become King so he could be properly controlled, not to mention leaving the situation so unstable on his death that his son (another irony there) could not control matters and Parliament had to be recalled at the behest of the Army, more or less unanimously agreeing to recall he King as well...

    ...it would be difficult to find anyone who wouldn't do more for the cause of republicanism than Cromwell.

    But see my thoughts above. Both regnant Charleses had better records on smashing Parliament.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,610
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I expect the National Trust or English Heritage would intervene if churches of significant architectural merit were threatened.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited October 2017
    Deleted
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    slade said:


    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!

    Where else in Sheffield can you buy a suit at half past midnight?
    Asda on the Handsworth/Parkway roundabout.
    £65 for George at Asda suit, £80 for F&F at Tesco, so a relatively up market choice. Flash git.
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I expect the National Trust or English Heritage would intervene if churches of significant architectural merit were threatened.
    Or the Churches Conservation Trust
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,610
    Ally_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I expect the National Trust or English Heritage would intervene if churches of significant architectural merit were threatened.
    Or the Churches Conservation Trust
    Yes and the National Churches Trust is also a specific charity set up to preserve historic churches
    https://www.nationalchurchestrust.org/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.
    A most disrespectful way to refer to our elected representatives, sir! You should be ashamed of yourself!

    (On your second point, do you mean 'raze the Houses of Parliament' or just the loos?)
    Raze Parliament.
    Okay...

    Now about this avatar of yours - when are you changing it back to Cromwell?
    I’ve just changed it to someone who will do more for the republican cause than Cromwell ever did.
    Since as I recall Cromwell seized power in a coup, ruled as a military dictator for five years and made his supporters so uneasy with his actions they actually begged him to become King so he could be properly controlled, not to mention leaving the situation so unstable on his death that his son (another irony there) could not control matters and Parliament had to be recalled at the behest of the Army, more or less unanimously agreeing to recall he King as well...

    ...it would be difficult to find anyone who wouldn't do more for the cause of republicanism than Cromwell.

    But see my thoughts above. Both regnant Charleses had better records on smashing Parliament.
    I don't think begging him to become king was purely about controlling him. There were sound reasons for thinking that kind of settlement had a better chance of, long term, being more palatable to much of the country than the arrangement they had at the time. It seems to me that Cromwell died about 5 years too soon - his son lacked the kind of base with the army to properly take over, but it is not as though another individual was at that time well placed to continue matters down that path, and how many die hard republicans did they ever really have. It's not as though even Cromwell started out as a republican after all.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    HYUFD said:

    Ally_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I expect the National Trust or English Heritage would intervene if churches of significant architectural merit were threatened.
    Or the Churches Conservation Trust
    Yes and the National Churches Trust is also a specific charity set up to preserve historic churches
    https://www.nationalchurchestrust.org/
    Or this one:

    http://friendsoffriendlesschurches.org.uk

    But there are something like twelve thousand historic churches of which I am guessing two-thirds have congregations of under 20. Can private charities really support them all?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,610
    edited October 2017
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ally_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I expect the National Trust or English Heritage would intervene if churches of significant architectural merit were threatened.
    Or the Churches Conservation Trust
    Yes and the National Churches Trust is also a specific charity set up to preserve historic churches
    https://www.nationalchurchestrust.org/
    Or this one:

    http://friendsoffriendlesschurches.org.uk

    But there are something like twelve thousand historic churches of which I am guessing two-thirds have congregations of under 20. Can private charities really support them all?
    Depends how historic and valuable they are I suppose, though small rural congregations is not something completely new.

    English Heritage is also now the government's statutory advisory body on preserving the heritage of England and Wales rather thsn just being a charity.
  • SeanT said:

    DavidL said:


    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    True story. I wonder if this is the worst toilet story EVER.

    I once did a Sunday Times piece on Moqqatam, the city of garbage, a shanty town in the middle of Cairo inhabited by Copts who lived, literally, in a suburb made of trash. Where they spent their lives sorting and recycling trash. It was a place so fearsome and horrible the people who lived in Cairo’s “city of the dead” - I.e, the cemetery - refused to go there. “Too dirty and dangerous”

    Anyway at one stage in my days in moqqatam with my photographer pal I HAD to use a local loo. So they sent me to the nearest urinal.. and while I was doing my business, a rat jumped on my shoulder, ran down my arm and leg, as I was peeing, then he ran into the hole of the urinal, and turned around to glare at me, meaning that I pissed in his beady rat’s eye. Then he disappeared in a huff.

    Can anyone beat that?

    A five-year-old boy was shocked to discover a python inside his toilet when he lifted up the lid.

    He was "frantic" when he found it in the bathroom at home in Southend, Essex, his mother Laura Cowell said.

    Specialists from pet shop Scales and Fangs came to the rescue, removing the harmless 3ft (91cm) baby royal python.

    "It smelt of bleach and a bit toilet-y," Ethan Pinion from the store said. The snake "most likely came up the u-bend" and is expected to recover fully.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-41122975
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Does every member of the WTO including Russia have to agree to the UK becoming an Independent member ?

    We have been a member since the formation of the WTO. But as a member of the EU we have ceded our voting rights to them. Leaving the EU does not change our position as a member but it does return our voting rights to us.
    It's actually a little more complex than that, as the GATT -> WTO transition was unclear on a number of points. However, the reality is that Britain becoming a full member in its own right is largely a formality.
    Well the WTO itself lists the UK as a member. The EU is also a separate member in its own right.
    The WTO defines itself in its treaties as the signatories of the GATT treaties. The UK was a signatory to the original 1947 treaty establishing GATT, but was not a signatory to the last GATT treaty (because it was signed by the EU).

    The WTO treaty is ambiguous about which GATT treaties constitute membership. You could theoretically take the view that only the signatories of the the most recent WTO treaty is a member.

    However, from a practical perspective, I think it's an irrelevancy. The UK will be a full member of the WTO from the date of Brexit, because it is no-ones interests to make a fuss. And
    Not so. If you go and look at the WTO documents on their own website they have the 1995 list of members under the preamble:

    "The following Governments have accepted the Marrakesh Agreement Establishing the World Trade Organization and their membership in the World Trade Organization is effective as of the dates indicated"

    All the members of the European Community as it was are listed separately and in addition the European Community is listed as a member in its own right. There are no provisos at all to say that Germany, the UK and France (for example) are only members through their membership of the EC.

    Nor would there be since the documents related to the founding of the WTO show that it was accepted that all existing signatories to GATT would become members of the WTO.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:


    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    True story. I wonder if this is the worst toilet story EVER.

    I once did a Sunday Times piece on Moqqatam, the city of garbage, a shanty town in the middle of Cairo inhabited by Copts who lived, literally, in a suburb made of trash. Where they spent their lives sorting and recycling trash. It was a place so fearsome and horrible the people who lived in Cairo’s “city of the dead” - I.e, the cemetery - refused to go there. “Too dirty and dangerous”

    Anyway at one stage in my days in moqqatam with my photographer pal I HAD to use a local loo. So they sent me to the nearest urinal.. and while I was doing my business, a rat jumped on my shoulder, ran down my arm and leg, as I was peeing, then he ran into the hole of the urinal, and turned around to glare at me, meaning that I pissed in his beady rat’s eye. Then he disappeared in a huff.

    Can anyone beat that?

    I once, against my better judgment, went to a toilet in Malaysia (in the late 60s) I struggled to find the light but while doing my business, standing up thankfully, I eventually felt the cord. The light came on to show the floor covered with cockroaches. That was slightly disappointing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,610
    edited October 2017
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ally_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Page 22 of today's Times: a quarter of Church of England church services don't have a single child in the congregation.

    That's a truly amazing statistic.

    From my experience as an organist I would have guessed it was nearer 75%.
    Perhaps "child" is defined as anyone under 40?
    Although by that logic as any member of he congregation is defined theologically as a child of the Lord, it should be 100% have children in :smiley:

    I think it probably more likely that I tend to play in small country churches where very few children live anyway. In Aston Ingham in Herefordshire I think there was one young family in the entire parish. In the urban churches, particularly in London which is where a huge slice of CofE members now live, I'm guessing it may be a bit different.

    Of course that in itself will skew the statistics. An awful lot of our medieval rural churches face a very uncertain future simply because of changing demographics. Roy Strong's book on The English Country Church is very interesting on that, albeit depressing for those of us who love medieval architecture.
    I expect the National Trust or English Heritage would intervene if churches of significant architectural merit were threatened.
    Or the Churches Conservation Trust
    Yes and the National Churches Trust is also a specific charity set up to preserve historic churches
    https://www.nationalchurchestrust.org/
    Or this one:

    http://friendsoffriendlesschurches.org.uk

    But there are something like twelve thousand historic churches of which I am guessing two-thirds have congregations of under 20. Can private charities really support them all?
    Depends how historic and valuable they are I suppose, though small rural congregations is not something completely new.

    English Heritage is also now the government's statutory advisory body on preserving the heritage of England and Wales rather thsn just being a charity.
    Historic England, formerly part of English Heritage, is the government's official body charged with listing and arranging for the preservation of buildings, including churches, if needed.
    https://historicengland.org.uk/
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    I think it should be remembered that the only reason Corbyn "exceeded expectation". Is because his presence as leader had inspired such low expectations in the first place. A different leader might not have been expected to do so badly and hence not been lauded for what was still a pretty poor result.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2017

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Shitty replacements are all the rage.

    Cf replacing David Cameron with the pound shop Gordon Brown and Len Goodman with Shirley Ballas
    Ballas is fucking miles better than Goodman. Miles better.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    slade said:


    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!

    Where else in Sheffield can you buy a suit at half past midnight?
    Asda on the Handsworth/Parkway roundabout.
    What happened to James T Kirk?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:


    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    True story. I wonder if this is the worst toilet story EVER.

    I once did a Sunday Times piece on Moqqatam, the city of garbage, a shanty town in the middle of Cairo inhabited by Copts who lived, literally, in a suburb made of trash. Where they spent their lives sorting and recycling trash. It was a place so fearsome and horrible the people who lived in Cairo’s “city of the dead” - I.e, the cemetery - refused to go there. “Too dirty and dangerous”

    Anyway at one stage in my days in moqqatam with my photographer pal I HAD to use a local loo. So they sent me to the nearest urinal.. and while I was doing my business, a rat jumped on my shoulder, ran down my arm and leg, as I was peeing, then he ran into the hole of the urinal, and turned around to glare at me, meaning that I pissed in his beady rat’s eye. Then he disappeared in a huff.

    Can anyone beat that?

    I went to the loo in France.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:


    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    True story. I wonder if this is the worst toilet story EVER.

    I once did a Sunday Times piece on Moqqatam, the city of garbage, a shanty town in the middle of Cairo inhabited by Copts who lived, literally, in a suburb made of trash. Where they spent their lives sorting and recycling trash. It was a place so fearsome and horrible the people who lived in Cairo’s “city of the dead” - I.e, the cemetery - refused to go there. “Too dirty and dangerous”

    Anyway at one stage in my days in moqqatam with my photographer pal I HAD to use a local loo. So they sent me to the nearest urinal.. and while I was doing my business, a rat jumped on my shoulder, ran down my arm and leg, as I was peeing, then he ran into the hole of the urinal, and turned around to glare at me, meaning that I pissed in his beady rat’s eye. Then he disappeared in a huff.

    Can anyone beat that?

    I went to the loo in France.
    LIKE
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    On Topic. I think Mike misses the point. Without Corbyn we wouldn't have had the best LAB manifesto since the war providing of hope etc etc
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763

    On Topic. I think Mike misses the point. Without Corbyn we wouldn't have had the best LAB manifesto since the war providing of hope etc etc

    He didn't contribute to the 1997 manifesto as far as I am aware.
  • Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:


    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    True story. I wonder if this is the worst toilet story EVER.

    I once did a Sunday Times piece on Moqqatam, the city of garbage, a shanty town in the middle of Cairo inhabited by Copts who lived, literally, in a suburb made of trash. Where they spent their lives sorting and recycling trash. It was a place so fearsome and horrible the people who lived in Cairo’s “city of the dead” - I.e, the cemetery - refused to go there. “Too dirty and dangerous”

    Anyway at one stage in my days in moqqatam with my photographer pal I HAD to use a local loo. So they sent me to the nearest urinal.. and while I was doing my business, a rat jumped on my shoulder, ran down my arm and leg, as I was peeing, then he ran into the hole of the urinal, and turned around to glare at me, meaning that I pissed in his beady rat’s eye. Then he disappeared in a huff.

    Can anyone beat that?

    I went to the loo in France.
    I went to the loo in India :p
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited October 2017

    Ishmael_Z said:

    slade said:


    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!

    Where else in Sheffield can you buy a suit at half past midnight?
    Asda on the Handsworth/Parkway roundabout.
    What happened to James T Kirk?
    He was killed by Malcolm Macdowell's character in Star Trek: Generations.

    I thought everyone knew that.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The 28% for Manifesto/Policies has a lot to do with Corbyn / McDonnell. Scrapping Tuition Fees would not have been a manifesto pledge otherwise. Rent control maybe.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @dinosofos: Bryant says O’Mara has resigned from equalities committee. https://twitter.com/rhonddabryant/status/922524066577289216
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    On Topic. I think Mike misses the point. Without Corbyn we wouldn't have had the best LAB manifesto since the war providing of hope etc etc

    Free unicorns...
  • ydoethur said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    slade said:


    It was clear in June that Jared O'Mara had problems. Just before the count his minders sent him to buy a suit. He went to Tesco!

    Where else in Sheffield can you buy a suit at half past midnight?
    Asda on the Handsworth/Parkway roundabout.
    What happened to James T Kirk?
    He was killed by Malcolm Macdowell's character in Star Trek: Generations.

    I thought everyone knew that.
    "Time Brexit is the fire in which we burn!"
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited October 2017

    The other myth was that it was the corbyn led to rise of the yuff vote and that is what won it for labour. However they only added about 3% to labour score, but it was the collapse of the Tory lead amongst the middle aged that did for the Tory majority.

    The likes of the Tory threats to nick your house if you go gaga killed them.

    But that 3% won Labour about 20 extra seats and denied the Tories a majority. So it was absolutely critical.
    Don’t worry about him. From his posts during the GE he was always very anti-young people, and no doubt wants the political process to entirely ignore young people’s concerns and go back to a world where baby boomers are the main focus of debate.
  • LOL Sheffield Hallam really choose Jared O’Mara over Nick Clegg.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The other myth was that it was the corbyn led to rise of the yuff vote and that is what won it for labour. However they only added about 3% to labour score, but it was the collapse of the Tory lead amongst the middle aged that did for the Tory majority.

    The likes of the Tory threats to nick your house if you go gaga killed them.

    But that 3% won Labour about 20 extra seats and denied the Tories a majority. So it was absolutely critical.
    It wouldn’t have made much of a difference if hadn’t lost her massive lead among middle aged.
    I cannot see why the Tories should suddenly win back the middle aged.
    I am not saying they will.

    May is incredibly disappointing PM (and that is being very kind) and also seems to have crap policies. Miliband-lite doesn't attract anybody
    May is Bud-lite to Corbyn's Budvar?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What the thread header misses is that without Corbyn the manifesto would have been some weak, tory-lite waffle... Corbyn needs to get some credit for the manifesto-policies 28% imo.

    And also for the 13% fairness/hope category
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    Charles said:

    The other myth was that it was the corbyn led to rise of the yuff vote and that is what won it for labour. However they only added about 3% to labour score, but it was the collapse of the Tory lead amongst the middle aged that did for the Tory majority.

    The likes of the Tory threats to nick your house if you go gaga killed them.

    But that 3% won Labour about 20 extra seats and denied the Tories a majority. So it was absolutely critical.
    It wouldn’t have made much of a difference if hadn’t lost her massive lead among middle aged.
    I cannot see why the Tories should suddenly win back the middle aged.
    I am not saying they will.

    May is incredibly disappointing PM (and that is being very kind) and also seems to have crap policies. Miliband-lite doesn't attract anybody
    May is Bud-lite to Corbyn's Budvar?
    And what we really need is a proper Budweiser?
  • Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Shitty replacements are all the rage.

    Cf replacing David Cameron with the pound shop Gordon Brown and Len Goodman with Shirley Ballas
    Ballas is fucking miles better than Goodman. Miles better.
    I'll pretend you didn't type that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    Charles said:

    The other myth was that it was the corbyn led to rise of the yuff vote and that is what won it for labour. However they only added about 3% to labour score, but it was the collapse of the Tory lead amongst the middle aged that did for the Tory majority.

    The likes of the Tory threats to nick your house if you go gaga killed them.

    But that 3% won Labour about 20 extra seats and denied the Tories a majority. So it was absolutely critical.
    It wouldn’t have made much of a difference if hadn’t lost her massive lead among middle aged.
    I cannot see why the Tories should suddenly win back the middle aged.
    I am not saying they will.

    May is incredibly disappointing PM (and that is being very kind) and also seems to have crap policies. Miliband-lite doesn't attract anybody
    May is Bud-lite to Corbyn's Budvar?
    May is Foster's.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Charles said:

    What the thread header misses is that without Corbyn the manifesto would have been some weak, tory-lite waffle... Corbyn needs to get some credit for the manifesto-policies 28% imo.

    And also for the 13% fairness/hope category
    So basically more than half voted Lab due to Corbyn or his policies and hope.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    The other myth was that it was the corbyn led to rise of the yuff vote and that is what won it for labour. However they only added about 3% to labour score, but it was the collapse of the Tory lead amongst the middle aged that did for the Tory majority.

    The likes of the Tory threats to nick your house if you go gaga killed them.

    But that 3% won Labour about 20 extra seats and denied the Tories a majority. So it was absolutely critical.
    It wouldn’t have made much of a difference if hadn’t lost her massive lead among middle aged.
    I cannot see why the Tories should suddenly win back the middle aged.
    I am not saying they will.

    May is incredibly disappointing PM (and that is being very kind) and also seems to have crap policies. Miliband-lite doesn't attract anybody
    May is Bud-lite to Corbyn's Budvar?
    May is Foster's.
    You sound bitter.

    I'll get my coat.
  • Corbyn was assumed not to be anywhere near to Number 10 in June. 2017 was a free vote (or non-vote) for many, for the first time since at least Blair's re-coronation in 2001. Even many of Corbyn's own MPs camapigned on the basis of "vote for me, not for him".

    Things will be different next time.

    The polls suggest that he is more popular than last June. Meanwhile the Tories are making headless chickens look competent.

    PB Tories, underestimate Corbyn at your peril.
    Exactly. Since lots of PB Tories are more than happy to take many polls that have come out since the GE at face value, surely by their thinking Labour should have nose dived in the polls? After all, many know now that he’s not a million miles away from power now. I think some on this site are just going to have to deal with the fact that not everyone sees the world the way they do. Too many assuming that everyone either loves Blairite Centrism or is a Conservative.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763

    Charles said:

    What the thread header misses is that without Corbyn the manifesto would have been some weak, tory-lite waffle... Corbyn needs to get some credit for the manifesto-policies 28% imo.

    And also for the 13% fairness/hope category
    So basically more than half voted Lab due to Corbyn or his policies and hope.
    Manifesto / Policies not Corbyn's. Owned by party overall.

    Unless of course he's claiming ownership of Trident policy now.
  • NEW THREAD

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157

    Charles said:

    What the thread header misses is that without Corbyn the manifesto would have been some weak, tory-lite waffle... Corbyn needs to get some credit for the manifesto-policies 28% imo.

    And also for the 13% fairness/hope category
    So basically more than half voted Lab due to Corbyn or his policies and hope.
    If that were true - and I think you exaggerate - that has some uncomfortable implications for Labour:

    1) it means in effect that all their eggs are in the basket of a 68 year old man known for his gaffes and not known for his intelligence;

    2) It means the only way you can win power is by promising things you can't then deliver on, a la Trump or Tsipras;

    3) It means that Labour are also going to be struggling to keep old voters should it ever try to reach out to former Conservatives.

    Is that really good news for the party?

    Meanwhile, if only a handful voted because of Corbyn or his policies, that leaves Labour well placed to win under a sane leader next time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,955
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    I see Guido has been going after the Sheffield Hallam MP today, not for the first time. Anyone know why, particularly? Sounds like the guy has been a real bell-end in the past, but its not as though that is something so unusual to be worthy of such attention.

    He was one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem for the first team.

    He’s like a student politician cum troll with the defence I have cerebral palsy, so I can’t possibly be discriminatory.
    Seriously? The voters of Sheffield replaced Nick Clegg with this guy?
    Shitty replacements are all the rage.

    Cf replacing David Cameron with the pound shop Gordon Brown and Len Goodman with Shirley Ballas
    Ballas is fucking miles better than Goodman. Miles better.
    Len's flensed....

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    They are not badgers: they are ROUS
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:


    kle4 said:

    Parliament is a wreck. Literally.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41650215

    I know it will cost a lot more than predicted and take a lot longer than predicted, and be very unpopular, but hopefully they will at least make a decision on fixing the damn place up soon.

    Every time I’ve been to Parliament or No 10/11 I’ve always been confronted by rats/mice the size of badgers*.

    And using the lavatories in Parliament is the equivalent of playing a toilet version of Russian Roulette.

    Time to raze them to the ground.

    *Seriously it felt like they were that big.
    “The creatures outside looked from rat to man, and from man to rat, and from rat to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    True story. I wonder if this is the worst toilet story EVER.

    I once did a Sunday Times piece on Moqqatam, the city of garbage, a shanty town in the middle of Cairo inhabited by Copts who lived, literally, in a suburb made of trash. Where they spent their lives sorting and recycling trash. It was a place so fearsome and horrible the people who lived in Cairo’s “city of the dead” - I.e, the cemetery - refused to go there. “Too dirty and dangerous”

    Anyway at one stage in my days in moqqatam with my photographer pal I HAD to use a local loo. So they sent me to the nearest urinal.. and while I was doing my business, a rat jumped on my shoulder, ran down my arm and leg, as I was peeing, then he ran into the hole of the urinal, and turned around to glare at me, meaning that I pissed in his beady rat’s eye. Then he disappeared in a huff.

    Can anyone beat that?

    In my old pad I had 8 foot high mahogany doors throughout.

    They were the doors to the gents cubicles from the Baltic Exchange.,,
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    What the thread header misses is that without Corbyn the manifesto would have been some weak, tory-lite waffle... Corbyn needs to get some credit for the manifesto-policies 28% imo.

    And also for the 13% fairness/hope category
    So basically more than half voted Lab due to Corbyn or his policies and hope.
    I'd give him half credit on manifesto/hope because some tribal Labour would also say that. But certainly more than the headline number suggests
This discussion has been closed.