Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Off to Westminster to give evidence before the House of Lords

SystemSystem Posts: 12,258
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Off to Westminster to give evidence before the House of Lords Committee that’s looking at political polling

This morning alongside Matthew Shaddick (Shadsy) of Ladbrokes I’ll be giving evidence before the Lords Committee that’s investigating political polling particularly in view of what happened at GE17.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    First - good luck Mike!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    Second; and you’ll be fine.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,715
    Third like Scottish Tories
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,609
    edited October 2017
    Good luck OGH I am sure you will be fine, what you don't know about polling is not what worth knowing anyway I am sure their Lordships will be wowed
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,375
    I'm just curious as to why members of the House of Lords should have any interest in the democratic process.

    Enjoy the day Mike!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,375
    I wonder if any of their Lordships will ask a question about Scottish sub-samples?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Pong said:

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Are you sure about that, Mr Pong? There ought to be, of course, but I have the impression that Mrs May`s government doesn`t have a clue, has made no progress, so there is nothing about Brexit for the Lords to be scrutinising.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,265
    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    I tend to agree. Unless there's a view that polling is being used to manipulate elections - and I don't - then it really is none of their concern.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    The Lords committees are exceptionally polite -they will not give you a difficult time. I'm told that typically a third of the committee is exceptionally bright and well-informed, a third somnolent or even distracted, and a third somewhere in between. But I'd expect you to enjoy it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    Good luck Mike, sounds like a fun day and we look forward to hear what happened.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    All the best Mike.
  • Best of luck Mike.

    I'm sure you'll do very well.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,375

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Best of luck.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    Durian?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    How about prunes?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,715
    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    The useless bunch of farts have little to do for their £300 a day plus free scoff and bevvy, hotels etc. They need to find something to do till the bars open.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Good luck OGH. I'm at home ill today so will probably give it a watch if I'm not asleep.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    edited October 2017

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    LOL, very good.
    Price of fish for the Kippers?
  • Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    They are the cake into which various fruits are inserted (and then removed on recent showings).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    Nightshade.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,551
    I note that the boundary commission revised proposals are good for the LibDems in St Albans. Removing London Colney and adding Woodside from Watford borough.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,715
    Freggles said:

    Good luck OGH. I'm at home ill today so will probably give it a watch if I'm not asleep.

    If not asleep you soon will be.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    There is also the view, often expressed here, that bad polls misled voters into believing that protest votes for Labour were safe, thus robbing the Conservative Party of the landslide victory it so thoroughly deserved.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    There does seem to be an unfortunate feedback loop from polls that has grown stronger in the era of social media and we would be better off without.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    Ugli Fruit?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255
    malcolmg said:

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    The useless bunch of farts have little to do for their £300 a day plus free scoff and bevvy, hotels etc. They need to find something to do till the bars open.
    They could try, ooh, I don't know - examing tax legislation to fill in the loopholes? Save a few billions and they will have less problems with getting the £300 a day....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518

    More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    Indeed, not every MP is like Laura Pidcock. I’m sure most politicians start from the premise that they’d like to make the country a better place, and even if they may disagree on the methodology they have more in common than divides them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,715

    malcolmg said:

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    The useless bunch of farts have little to do for their £300 a day plus free scoff and bevvy, hotels etc. They need to find something to do till the bars open.
    They could try, ooh, I don't know - examing tax legislation to fill in the loopholes? Save a few billions and they will have less problems with getting the £300 a day....
    You surely don't expect them to do real work!
  • Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    Aubergines?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    Sandpit said:

    More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    Indeed, not every MP is like Laura Pidcock. I’m sure most politicians start from the premise that they’d like to make the country a better place, and even if they may disagree on the methodology they have more in common than divides them.
    Certain MPs say certain things to promote themselves. What I don't understand is why there are so many people willing to help them by dialing up the outrageometer.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Ban polls or ban the publishing of polls?
  • More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    I'm afraid I could not have a friend who backed the BNP. I'd be civil to such a person, but they are not getting any bit of me beyond that.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    I wonder if any of their Lordships will ask a question about Scottish sub-samples?

    Maybe a bingo word book should be started?

    Klaxon. Anyone?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    OT Re Iran. Now that Trump has been effectively isolated in what seems no more than another vindictive attack on an Obama success isn't it a shame that when the EU are finally acting as a cohesive world power Britain is just an isolated enfeebled waste of space.

    Leaving the EU is much more damaging than just impoverishing the population
  • Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    Aubergines?
    Plums
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879

    Pong said:

    Good luck.

    Apologies for the negativity but.... I really don't think polling/election predictions/psephology is something the lords should consider official business. Leave it to the electoral commission/BPC etc.

    There's an insane amount of really difficult, dull but essential brexit scrutiny for the lords to be getting on with. They should be working overtime on economic impact assessments and whatnot.

    Hope the day goes well, anyway. I don't blame you for accepting the invitation!

    The couple of times I've seen you on TV you came across pretty well.

    It's of political interest because of the view that polls should be banned in the final week(s), as in many other countries.

    Then we'd get the tweets saying things like:

    Latest fruit prices:
    Redcurrants 42p/100g
    Blueberries 38p/100g
    Yellow bananas 7p/100g
    Scottish raspberries 4p/100g
    Greengages 2p/100g

    I am struggling for a suitable fruit to represent the Kippers!
    Aubergines?
    No, they're a ‘foreign’ fruit. Could be held to be offensive.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Roger said:

    OT Re Iran. Now that Trump has been effectively isolated in what seems no more than another vindictive attack on an Obama success isn't it a shame that when the EU are finally acting as a cohesive world power Britain is just an isolated enfeebled waste of space.

    Leaving the EU is much more damaging than just impoverishing the population

    The problem that many of us have with the EU is that it is too cohesive, too centralised, too bureaucratically dominated...and entirely alien to our national democratic traditions.
  • Sandpit said:

    More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    Indeed, not every MP is like Laura Pidcock. I’m sure most politicians start from the premise that they’d like to make the country a better place, and even if they may disagree on the methodology they have more in common than divides them.
    I believe this is absolutely the case. My business partner is so left wing I think Momentum might have trouble accepting him. But having known him for more years than I care to remember I know that his view of people and his desire to make the world a better place is absolutely one I agree with and support. We simply differ (radically) on how we think we should best go about it.

    I must admit I would have (and have had) trouble with a BNP or NF member.
  • Roger said:

    OT Re Iran. Now that Trump has been effectively isolated in what seems no more than another vindictive attack on an Obama success isn't it a shame that when the EU are finally acting as a cohesive world power Britain is just an isolated enfeebled waste of space.

    Leaving the EU is much more damaging than just impoverishing the population

    Erm. No.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I've got it. The reason surely for the GE2017 polling problems was inconsistent voting patterns by different segments of the electorate. You can't blame the pollsters for that
  • More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    I'm afraid I could not have a friend who backed the BNP. I'd be civil to such a person, but they are not getting any bit of me beyond that.

    Its entirely possible you may have one already and don't know it. People who don't talk about these issues can hold very surprising views.
  • Scott_P said:
    Still considerably closer to target than before the referendum.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    I've got it. The reason surely for the GE2017 polling problems was inconsistent voting patterns by different segments of the electorate. You can't blame the pollsters for that

    I think turnout was just about ideal for Labour. Had it matched the 2015 election, or the 2016 referendum, the Tories would either just have held on to a handful of Southern marginals, or else just got those extra votes in Northern and Midlands seats which Labour saved by a whisker.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    I'm afraid I could not have a friend who backed the BNP. I'd be civil to such a person, but they are not getting any bit of me beyond that.

    Its entirely possible you may have one already and don't know it. People who don't talk about these issues can hold very surprising views.
    Another oddity is that sometimes, peoples' voting behaviour bears no relation to their opinions.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I've got it. The reason surely for the GE2017 polling problems was inconsistent voting patterns by different segments of the electorate. You can't blame the pollsters for that

    Yes you can. Pollsters try to make up for poor sampling by weighting, where the weights are heavily adjusted after each polling failure (or election, as they are often known). Your explanation is basically that they have not correctly identified subsamples before weighting them.

    And you can also blame pollsters for not noticing their subsamples had become internally inconsistent.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.

  • More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    I'm afraid I could not have a friend who backed the BNP. I'd be civil to such a person, but they are not getting any bit of me beyond that.

    Its entirely possible you may have one already and don't know it. People who don't talk about these issues can hold very surprising views.

    It is possible. Nick clearly knew, though.

  • Pong said:

    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.
    The triple lock is surely moot if inflation is 3%.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited October 2017
    The GE2017 polling failure was basically because some firms discounted previous non-voters when they should not have done. Those of us who backed NOM on the basis of Prosser(?) and BES and Yougov and Survation) and have aftertimed about it ever since are not even sure there was a polling failure.

    Edit: non-voters who do not vote probably don't take part in polls either.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879

    More on the theme of cross-party friends, this time critically:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-and-friendship-are-a-toxicmixture-qr09swn7x

    Personally I see no problem. I've had friends who were everything from BNP to Trots: what counts is that one thinks they are primarily well-intentioned, even if they've come to strange and even unpleasant conclusions. PB works on much the same assumption, doesn't it?

    I'm afraid I could not have a friend who backed the BNP. I'd be civil to such a person, but they are not getting any bit of me beyond that.

    Its entirely possible you may have one already and don't know it. People who don't talk about these issues can hold very surprising views.
    Couple of people I once thought highly of came out with surprising statements during the Referendum, and not just about the EU.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,715
    Pong said:

    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.

    Why not just shoot oldies and take all their money, hard to believe how grasping and nasty Tories are.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Pong said:

    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.

    The bit of the triple lock the Tories want to ditch is the minimum 2.5% rise when inflation is below that. If inflation is at 3% then that clause does not matter.

    From the Conservative Party manifesto: maintain the Triple Lock until 2020, and when it expires we will introduce a new Double Lock, meaning that pensions will rise in line with the earnings that pay for them, or in line with inflation –- whichever is highest.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108

    I've got it. The reason surely for the GE2017 polling problems was inconsistent voting patterns by different segments of the electorate. You can't blame the pollsters for that

    "inconsistent voting patterns by different segments of the electorate"?

    Huh? I mean isn't that what pollsters are supposed to analyse?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Another 0.1% spike in inflation.

    It's a bit above target. Not hugely. Certainly not at a bed-wetting stage, particularly when we've ample scope to increase interest rates to a more normal level.

    Still, panic, woe doom, Armageddon, climate change, Brexit, time for socialism, foam-flecked fantastical fear-mongering terror, apocalypse! Etc.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017

    Pong said:

    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.

    The bit of the triple lock the Tories want to ditch is the minimum 2.5% rise when inflation is below that. If inflation is at 3% then that clause does not matter.

    From the Conservative Party manifesto: maintain the Triple Lock until 2020, and when it expires we will introduce a new Double Lock, meaning that pensions will rise in line with the earnings that pay for them, or in line with inflation –- whichever is highest.
    It should be a single lock, linked to average earnings.

    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    Pong said:

    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.

    The bit of the triple lock the Tories want to ditch is the minimum 2.5% rise when inflation is below that. If inflation is at 3% then that clause does not matter.

    From the Conservative Party manifesto: maintain the Triple Lock until 2020, and when it expires we will introduce a new Double Lock, meaning that pensions will rise in line with the earnings that pay for them, or in line with inflation –- whichever is highest.
    Linking to inflation seems fair to me.
    Topping up 2.5% anyway if inflation is low doesn't particularly. Nice to have if we can afford it.

    Of course for the next little while it looks like inflation will be higher than target - so probably a moot point.

    My suspicion is Carney will tolerate higher inflation in the hope of propping up growth.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    F1: the ultrasofts, normally, purple, will be pink at the US race to raise awareness of breast cancer.

    The yellows will remain yellow because increasing awareness of pancreatic cancer isn't as fashionable.

    [I did wonder about posting the second sentence, but it pisses me off that people are literally dying because research into pancreatic cancer (as a 'non-sexy/trendy' disease) is so much more underfunded. If/when I actually have enough cash to splash around, pancreatic cancer research will be near the top of the list].
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Scott_P said:
    RPI 3.9%. That's the benchmark still applicable for the likes of business rates, rail fares and student loans (+ another 3% above RPI). The "inflation" rate the Government uses when it's receiving revenue, rather than paying it out.

    State pensioners should be feeling hard done to as well. Under Blair and Brown, pensions increased by the higher of RPI or 2.5%. The link to CPI was brought in after 2011 by Osborne. The additional link to average earnings was brought in by Osborne over a period of engineered austerity when he knew earnings would be falling well behind 2.5%, such that the extra link to earnings has proved useless to state pensioners.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    Another 0.1% spike in inflation.

    It's a bit above target. Not hugely. Certainly not at a bed-wetting stage, particularly when we've ample scope to increase interest rates to a more normal level.

    Still, panic, woe doom, Armageddon, climate change, Brexit, time for socialism, foam-flecked fantastical fear-mongering terror, apocalypse! Etc.

    Run away inflation isn't the worry and to be honest never was.
    The concern for me is continued real wage decline - and that is actually happening.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. rkrkrk, with inflation over the desired target and interest rates just 0.25%, there seems a rather obvious move for the MPC to make.

    Seems weak wage growth (and current decline) is the price we've paid as a nation for strong employment statistics.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017
    Pong said:


    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.

    Fair? What has that got to do with it whenever the majority of pensioners in the country vote Tory?

    Party before Country (can someone translate that into Latin so CCHQ can adopt it officially as the motto?)

    [Edit: Google translate says: Pars antequam terra - Yes? No? Maybe?]
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406

    Mr. rkrkrk, with inflation over the desired target and interest rates just 0.25%, there seems a rather obvious move for the MPC to make.

    Seems weak wage growth (and current decline) is the price we've paid as a nation for strong employment statistics.

    Oh certainly they can raise rates - but Carney/MPC are reluctant because they don't think the economy is strong fundamentally. Looking at the growth rates - they're hardly brilliant... and Brexit is just around the corner.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Pong said:


    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.

    Fair? What has that got to do with it whenever the majority of pensioners in the country vote Tory?

    Party before Country (can someone translate that into Latin so CCHQ can adopt it officially as the motto?)

    [Edit: Google translate says: Pars antequam terra - Yes? No? Maybe?]
    Would have thought Patria rather than Terra?
  • Pong said:


    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.

    Fair? What has that got to do with it whenever the majority of pensioners in the country vote Tory?

    Party before Country (can someone translate that into Latin so CCHQ can adopt it officially as the motto?)

    [Edit: Google translate says: Pars antequam terra - Yes? No? Maybe?]
    You've come to the wrong place if you're looking for folk to advise on/correct Latin tags.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397
    edited October 2017

    Pong said:


    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.

    Fair? What has that got to do with it whenever the majority of pensioners in the country vote Tory?

    Party before Country (can someone translate that into Latin so CCHQ can adopt it officially as the motto?)

    [Edit: Google translate says: Pars antequam terra - Yes? No? Maybe?]
    Dulce et decorum est, pro patria pecuniam conservare.

    Or something....
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    F1: the ultrasofts, normally, purple, will be pink at the US race to raise awareness of breast cancer.

    The yellows will remain yellow because increasing awareness of pancreatic cancer isn't as fashionable.

    [I did wonder about posting the second sentence, but it pisses me off that people are literally dying because research into pancreatic cancer (as a 'non-sexy/trendy' disease) is so much more underfunded. If/when I actually have enough cash to splash around, pancreatic cancer research will be near the top of the list].

    Apparently yellow is the colour for bone cancer. Ironically, purple is pancreatic cancer.
    https://www.choosehope.com/category/by-cancer-color-cancer-type
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. L, that is rather ironic.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Given the comments below, then Pars antequam patria it is, although I enjoyed FF43's Dulce et decorum est.... but I suspect that Wilfred Owen might have a thing or two to say if he could see us all now.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Pong said:

    Pong said:

    Scott_P said:
    The triple lock is taking the piss.

    Either aggressively means test pensions, or keep as/is & tax property/inheritance properly.

    The bit of the triple lock the Tories want to ditch is the minimum 2.5% rise when inflation is below that. If inflation is at 3% then that clause does not matter.

    From the Conservative Party manifesto: maintain the Triple Lock until 2020, and when it expires we will introduce a new Double Lock, meaning that pensions will rise in line with the earnings that pay for them, or in line with inflation –- whichever is highest.
    It should be a single lock, linked to average earnings.

    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.
    Rubbish. The state pension takes just 5% of GDP. The US pays a higher state pension than we do, i.e. FDR's legacy was less easily privatised / destroyed than that of Beveridge/Attlee.

    Blame past politicians, like Thatcher. Don't blame the workers for Thatcher's actions.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017
    Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo is the latin term you're all looking for.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017

    Pong said:


    Right now, workers are getting 0.9% poorer every year.

    Pensioners aren't.

    The workers are paying the pensioners overgenerous pensions that they won't receive themselves.

    That's not fair.

    Fair? What has that got to do with it whenever the majority of pensioners in the country vote Tory?

    Party before Country (can someone translate that into Latin so CCHQ can adopt it officially as the motto?)

    [Edit: Google translate says: Pars antequam terra - Yes? No? Maybe?]
    lol

    I have a (not very novel) theory for what has gone so wrong in the tory party in recent years.

    It's fundamentally caused by a decline in newspaper readership. The powerbrokers in the party think that the editors are more powerful than they actually are.

    The editors are desperately pandering to their declining readership, which is getting older and older.

    This all funneled into a manifesto which had dotted every i & crossed every t so far as the editors were concerned, but got torn apart in the socialmediasphere that normal, non-newspaper readers inhabit.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397

    Given the comments below, then Pars antequam patria it is, although I enjoyed FF43's Dulce et decorum est.... but I suspect that Wilfred Owen might have a thing or two to say if he could see us all now.

    The actual phrase is probably this one: Non sibi sed patriae
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo is the latin term you're all looking for.

    Tuum est?
  • On topic, Mike don't forget to tell their Lordships about my theory about how AV/electoral reform will help pollsters get things right.

    FPTP doesn't help the pollsters.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712

    Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo is the latin term you're all looking for.

    LOL

    I can see that going well

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017
    FF43 said:

    Given the comments below, then Pars antequam patria it is, although I enjoyed FF43's Dulce et decorum est.... but I suspect that Wilfred Owen might have a thing or two to say if he could see us all now.

    The actual phrase is probably this one: Non sibi sed patriae
    For the current crop of politicians, I think that one is the wrong way round. ;)

    To be honest, I think there might be a lot less trouble if people were prepared to live for their country rather than die for it. Think what would have happened in WW1 if all those young men had said "We have a whole life ahead of us - go fight your own wars"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017
    Tragic, this book, alongside LOTR, had the most profound effect on me as a child*

    The Biloxi School District got complaints about the wording in “To Kill A Mockingbird” — an American classic being taught in 8th grade English Language Arts classes — and pulled it from the curriculum.

    http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/counties/jackson-county/article178572326.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1508228905

    *So did the film, Gregory Peck was magnificent.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, yeah, saw that on Twitter.

    To be honest, I hated reading it. Probably down to my teacher, to be honest. All I really learnt was that dressing as a giant ham makes you impervious to knife attacks.

    It does seem a stupid decision.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    The GE2017 polling failure was basically because some firms discounted previous non-voters when they should not have done. Those of us who backed NOM on the basis of Prosser(?) and BES and Yougov and Survation) and have aftertimed about it ever since are not even sure there was a polling failure.

    Edit: non-voters who do not vote probably don't take part in polls either.

    Indeed. The final YouGov poll was actually quite close, if you take the weighted data before applying any further adjustments filtering turnout or reallocating "don't knows" adjustment. It had the Tories about 2% ahead of Labour. That happens to be the method YouGov used in all their published GE polls up to about March 2015 before the short campaign started. After 2015 they tightened up their turnout filter and also started to reallocate don't knows.

    I don't think that the basic sampling was that bad. What happened was that a generation which always said it would do one thing (vote) and do another (not vote), and which had become steadily more prone to that behaviour as time went on, suddenly decided to do what they were saying they would do. Not unreasonably, the pollsters took the view that they were still crying wolf.

    Pollsters are always fighting the last war, not the current one. Any change in established patterns of behaviour can catch them out.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587



    I'm afraid I could not have a friend who backed the BNP. I'd be civil to such a person, but they are not getting any bit of me beyond that.

    Well, we've been friends for nearly 50 years, so it's not easily discarded. Normally he votes Tory or UKIP, but in one London election a few years back wanted to send a message that he felt immigration was too high. He has a Chinese partner and is not very racialist, but sees voting as a matter of message-sending since it's unlikely to change the result.

    I think I'd have more trouble with a regular BNP voter, or one who I hadn't previously been friends with. But in the end the acid test for me is whether I believe that they mean well, not what conclusions that leads them to take.


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    edited October 2017

    F1: the ultrasofts, normally, purple, will be pink at the US race to raise awareness of breast cancer.

    The yellows will remain yellow because increasing awareness of pancreatic cancer isn't as fashionable.

    [I did wonder about posting the second sentence, but it pisses me off that people are literally dying because research into pancreatic cancer (as a 'non-sexy/trendy' disease) is so much more underfunded. If/when I actually have enough cash to splash around, pancreatic cancer research will be near the top of the list].

    Apparently yellow is the colour for bone cancer. Ironically, purple is pancreatic cancer.
    https://www.choosehope.com/category/by-cancer-color-cancer-type
    From the prostate cancer website (the ‘ribbon’ is a liittle silver man) 'Plans to rollout mpMRI scans before a first biopsy for all UK men suspected of prostate cancer are under threat, as long-term vacancies and increasing demand put a strain on the NHS's radiology services.'

    As men live longer prostate cancer will become an increasing problem. One of the problems, for me anyway, is that one at least of the treatments is depressing. God knows how much the unit where I had radiotherapy cost.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017

    Mr. Eagles, yeah, saw that on Twitter.

    To be honest, I hated reading it. Probably down to my teacher, to be honest. All I really learnt was that dressing as a giant ham makes you impervious to knife attacks.

    It does seem a stupid decision.

    I understand what you mean Mr Dancer, but looking back at stuff from (say) mid-1970s or earlier, some of it does make me cringe these days. I love Fawlty Towers but there is one episode where the old Major goes off on one about foreigners and it is pure cringe TV. The audience was laughing away merrily... As for programs like "Love Thy Neighbour".... :astonished:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017

    Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo is the latin term you're all looking for.

    LOL

    I can see that going well

    I have an A* star in GCSE Latin, and for some reason, Catullus 16 is the one Latin text I can quote verbatim.

    Although I can still remember inter arma enim silent leges for all the wrong reasons.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    I had the unusual experience of giving evidence yesterday in Court. It was recorded but not, thankfully, on the TV. I must say I very much prefer asking the questions than answering them.

    The inflation figure is bad news for the government and for Hammond's budget (if indeed he is the one giving it). It means both pensions and benefits are going to be increasing faster than was anticipated making the sums even harder to balance. It also threatens to undermine any argument that the budget is designed to help the young even if it is a matter somewhat beyond the Chancellor's control at the moment. Higher inflation means a longer period until wages start to grow again in real terms. Not great for the government either.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879

    FF43 said:

    Given the comments below, then Pars antequam patria it is, although I enjoyed FF43's Dulce et decorum est.... but I suspect that Wilfred Owen might have a thing or two to say if he could see us all now.

    The actual phrase is probably this one: Non sibi sed patriae
    For the current crop of politicians, I think that one is the wrong way round. ;)

    To be honest, I think there might be a lot less trouble if people were prepared to live for their country rather than die for it. Think what would have happened in WW1 if all those young men had said "We have a whole life ahead of us - go fight your own wars"
    Kipling (I think) wrote
    'If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied.'
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Half chocolate-coated biscuits
    Non-dairy milk
    Flavoured water
    Gin, bottle
    Flavoured cider, bottle
    Apple cider, four-can pack*
    Men’s base layer top
    Cycle helmet
    Average council tax bills in Great Britain
    Average rates bills in Northern Ireland
    Cough liquid
    Child’s scooter
    Jigsaw (now very popular with adults)
    Cider
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    PS @bbcphilipsim is tweeting an entertaining selection of angry letters from Scottish voters to the Boundary Commission. Some angry old blighters out there :D

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    TGOHF said:

    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Half chocolate-coated biscuits
    Non-dairy milk
    Flavoured water
    Gin, bottle
    Flavoured cider, bottle
    Apple cider, four-can pack*
    Men’s base layer top
    Cycle helmet
    Average council tax bills in Great Britain
    Average rates bills in Northern Ireland
    Cough liquid
    Child’s scooter
    Jigsaw (now very popular with adults)
    Cider

    Why anyone drinks berry flavoured cider is beyond me; one of the the most unpleasant drinks I’ve ever tasted.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    TGOHF said:

    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Half chocolate-coated biscuits
    Non-dairy milk
    Flavoured water
    Gin, bottle
    Flavoured cider, bottle
    Apple cider, four-can pack*
    Men’s base layer top
    Cycle helmet
    Average council tax bills in Great Britain
    Average rates bills in Northern Ireland
    Cough liquid
    Child’s scooter
    Jigsaw (now very popular with adults)
    Cider

    What on earth is "men's base layer top"?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214

    TGOHF said:

    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Half chocolate-coated biscuits
    Non-dairy milk
    Flavoured water
    Gin, bottle
    Flavoured cider, bottle
    Apple cider, four-can pack*
    Men’s base layer top
    Cycle helmet
    Average council tax bills in Great Britain
    Average rates bills in Northern Ireland
    Cough liquid
    Child’s scooter
    Jigsaw (now very popular with adults)
    Cider

    What on earth is "men's base layer top"?
    A vest?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    TGOHF said:

    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Half chocolate-coated biscuits
    Non-dairy milk
    Flavoured water
    Gin, bottle
    Flavoured cider, bottle
    Apple cider, four-can pack*
    Men’s base layer top
    Cycle helmet
    Average council tax bills in Great Britain
    Average rates bills in Northern Ireland
    Cough liquid
    Child’s scooter
    Jigsaw (now very popular with adults)
    Cider

    What on earth is "men's base layer top"?
    A warm vest
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    TGOHF said:

    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Rubbish why should things added to the basket be prone to higher than normal inflation? In fact the statisticians would want to actively avoid anything that might be prone to such an effect. The basket is supposed to reflect typical goods not fashion.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,630
    TGOHF said:

    Best way to avoid inflation is to not purchase anything in the basket of good - particularly the new additions:

    Half chocolate-coated biscuits
    Non-dairy milk
    Flavoured water
    Gin, bottle
    Flavoured cider, bottle
    Apple cider, four-can pack*
    Men’s base layer top
    Cycle helmet
    Average council tax bills in Great Britain
    Average rates bills in Northern Ireland
    Cough liquid
    Child’s scooter
    Jigsaw (now very popular with adults)
    Cider

    The council tax bills are tricky to avoid though.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,429
    Enjoy their Lordships Mr S. :D
This discussion has been closed.